For overseas tours and shit, sure. But their curent "endgame" should absolutely not be giving Cena another title reign. He's reaching beyond Hulk Hogan in WCW in 1995 levels here with how stale his chasing the title act has become, that's partly what this entire angle is about in some sense. Cena doesn't need the title to draw those people Sly, they're going to come regardless to cheer or boo him. The focus should be on using that title to build up new talent and starts that can sustain them in the future so they can stop having to rely on the "Cena chases title and defeats generic heel #9008" formula they've been stuck using for like seven or eight years now.
WWE RAW 8/15/2011 - ¡Viva Mucho Tiempo Del Rio!
- Thread starter FunKay the Inevitable
- Start date
For overseas tours and shit, sure. But their curent "endgame" should absolutely not be giving Cena another title reign. He's reaching beyond Hulk Hogan in WCW in 1995 levels here with how stale his chasing the title act has become, that's partly what this entire angle is about in some sense. Cena doesn't need the title to draw those people Sly, they're going to come regardless to cheer or boo him. The focus should be on using that title to build up new talent and starts that can sustain them in the future so they can stop having to rely on the "Cena chases title and defeats generic heel #9008" formula they've been stuck using for like seven or eight years now.
I don't know if the endgame has been getting Cena another title reign since 2006 or 2007. I think the title has gone on Cena because there have been few others worthy of holding it.
I'm not sure I understand that thinking. He's a professional wrestler...what else would a pro wrestler who has reached his level want to do, other than wrestle for the World title? Cena's had his side feuds, but after a side feud is over, it makes no sense for him not to go back to working for the World title.
Agreed, although there are other benefits to having Cena as your World Champion, in terms of being the face of the company.
But it's not about whether he can draw, but who do you put him against? Cena's not going to work an extended feud with Dolph Ziggler, because Dolph is way below him, both in kayfabe and in reality, and everyone knows it. It's simply not believable for Cena to engage in a back and forth feud with someone like Ziggler.
And the last thing you want to do is ruin the credibility of Cena's character. If you start making people believe wrestlers who are clearly not main-event caliber can defeat Cena on a semi-routine basis, then Cena isn't seen as a guy who can overcome Evil, and now you're in danger washing out your biggest draw. Then you have to build him up all over again.
At the end of the day, Cena HAS to be around the title, just like Triple H had to be around the title all the time once Rock and Austin left.
I've never agreed with the "title builds reputation" theory, though I admit it has worked. But at what price has it cost the WWE?
It's clear they're using the title to build Del Rio right now. I don't think anyone with a decent mind for wrestling believes Del Rio is on the same level as true main-eventers like Orton and Cena. So they're using the title to put him over, and it certainly has worked before. I think it did a great service for the Miz. But the World Title is about the best, and if fans know the guy holding the title can never be considered the best, they'll lose interest in your main-event. And, despite what some people will try to claim, the main-event is what sells tickets.
It's a definite balancing act, between building stars with the title, and keeping the prestige behind the title. That's why you see Cena always come back to the title...because he gives the title instant prestige, because every fan knows that if Cena is holding the title, it is believable for him to be considered, in kayfabe, as the best. I think Orton has the same appeal on Smackdown, I think if the Undertaker or Triple H were champion, they would have the same value to add to the title. But Del Rio doesn't have that, and I would say Punk still isn't firmly entrenched in that camp either. Kane and Mysterio are the only other two active wrestlers which MIGHT be able to do the same thing just by holding the title, at least that I can think of right now.
Anyways, long story short, you can't use the title just to get people over, or the title will have no meaning. Which is why you need Cena or Orton around the title every so often.
I completely and utterly disagree with the idea that you can't use a world title to get someone over Slyfox, that's ridiculous. The entire purpose of a title belt is to get someone over for goodness sake. They exist for no other reason than to be a prop and to show the fans that they should cheer/boo/respect/hate this guy. It sounds like you're just saying anything at this point to back up your belief that Cena should be in the title picture 24/7. Well, people are sick and tired of that. Hence, this entire damn angle.
I didn't say you can't use a World title to get someone over. I even cited the Miz as an example where it happened. Perhaps you misread something?
That's what I was responding to. Not sure of what other way I'm supposed to read that as?
Perhaps you should have read the rest of the post.
You read the long story short, the long story is kind of important in this case.
FunKay the Inevitable
People Like Me, We Don't Play
Weren't they doing a whole injury angle with Rey last night? Perhaps he's taking time off to heal this reported injury and won't make the tour of Mexico?
Was it an injury angle, or was it a "Del Rio is a really bad person" angle?
FunKay the Inevitable
People Like Me, We Don't Play
Probably the latter, but it is possible that injury is preventing Rey from doing the tour.
Fair enough. I'll concede that calling him talentless was a bit far. How about almost talentless?
He had a name and a face that Vince McMahon molded into a powerhouse in wrestling, which is something that Bischoff tried to do and failed at. Miserably. Without Vince McMahon's ability to make hacks look like stars, Nash was nothing. Fortunately for Nash, he managed to cash in on one of the greatest stories of all time in the nWo, thus saving himself from being exposed as horrible bore once again. Since then he's proven time and time again that he's a total waste of oxygen inside a wrestling arena.
The guaranteed money part wasn't the unethical part, it was the part where they matched salaries. I mean, it's not like Nash and Hall were exactly model employees for their tenure at WCW, and it's a well known fact that they came to shows drunk and misbehaved frequently. Do you think they would have done that if they were worried about their next contract negotiation? They had WCW by the balls.
I suppose I am being overly optimistic about the wrestling industry, but are you really going to mock me for hoping for the best?
Yeah... I haven't quite reached the point where I'm so consumed with wrestling that I'm going to pick up a Vince Russo book and give it a read, but maybe I'll read the cliff notes and get back to you on that one.
You're right, Kevin Nash wasn't thinking about the financial future of the company, and that's what makes it at least partially wrong.
It's been said by a variety of sources that Hogan went to bat for Nash and Hall before Bischoff brought them in.
Doesn't mean I haven't watched more than my fair share of matches and studied up. Hell, I like to think there are quite a few people on here that respect my opinion even.
You're lucky you're dealing with me and not Gelgarin or Sly, as I'm not nearly as well versed in Andre's work as they are, but I do know that Andre was not only strong as an ox, but agile as a stallion, able to execute maneuvers that even many of his smaller counterparts couldn't handle. In fact, Vince McMahon Sr. forced Andre to stop using so many agile moves to sell the monster strength angle better.
... so? He was still better than Nash.
Only 6'5"? What a runt.
No, it's obvious that you're a Nash mark for whatever reason. Nash put on a good show or two in the WWF because A) He had Vince McMahon to sell his abilities and B) He was able to work with legends like HBK and Bret Hart. It's obvious from your "arguments" (I put them in quotation marks because they were so laughable) that you don't know shit about big men in wrestling. Must be pretty embarrassing for you considering I just started watching wrestling a few years ago, huh?
And how did Taker get over? A great gimmick from the minds in the WWF. Nash got over in the same way. You have proven absolutely nothing.
Forgettable matches, though. He'll always be remembered first as Shawn Michael's bodyguard, second as a WWE Champion, though that's more due to the fact that Shawn is an absolute legend of wrestling while Hall will always be second tier at best.
How about the fact that the crowds were dead when Nash first showed up? Or how about the fact that he was garbage after the nWo gimmick played out?
1. Nash fucked over WCW by accepting the contract THEY offered to him. How dare he accept money offered to him that will help he and his family be able to live comftorably.
Live comfortably? The fuck you talking about? All it takes it $50k a year to live comfortably, and it was probably less back in the mid 90s. They were living the fat life.
I have conceded that he had a very minimal amount of talent. You won't get much else out of me.
I've given up on arguing business ethics on a wrestling forum, so if you feel like you won that battle, that's fine with me. However, Nash will forever be remembered by me as one of the biggest coat tail riders in the business, a guy that never blazed his own trail, never inspired anybody in any way shape or form, and a guy that CM Punk's sister thought was dead, probably because he's been so unremarkable since WCW folded that he may as well be dead.
Steamboat Ricky
WZCW's Living Legend
X...Raw sucked because it did NOTHING to live up to my expectations of it. I was really expecting more answers/satisfaction out of a Raw following the return of Kevin fucking Nash, perhaps the biggest rematch in recent memory, and the cash in of MITB.
I mean, what business did Cena have there at the end? Because he's a babyface? That's like Rey coming to console Kofi after Edge took him out to get in the EC match a few years back. Just...where is the flow? If I was Rey, I would be like "Fuck you Cena...I see you here trying to get back in the title picture. Well, you lost the title last night...though it was not clean, CM Punk has just as much of a claim to the title as you do."
I mean, what business did Cena have there at the end? Because he's a babyface? That's like Rey coming to console Kofi after Edge took him out to get in the EC match a few years back. Just...where is the flow? If I was Rey, I would be like "Fuck you Cena...I see you here trying to get back in the title picture. Well, you lost the title last night...though it was not clean, CM Punk has just as much of a claim to the title as you do."
Your whole business ethics thing here is pretty ridiculous though JGlass. You're telling me you wouldn't take fuckin' three or four times what Vince was paying you to work HALF the dates you worked for Vince, and you can even practically write your contract up as you go? Horseshit. Turner and Bischoff were desperate to sign big name talent and they were more than willing to give them WAY more money than they needed or deserved. Which is what led to them getting lazy, not giving a shit, and tanking the company eventually. But there's absolutely nothing morally wrong with Nash taking a higher paying job, whatsoever. He said to Vince that he would stay as long as they matched the offer from WCW, but Vince couldn't do it so he left. Simple as that. Nash did NOT bully them into any kind of contract, they happily gave them those ridiculously lucrative and extravagant contracts, just like they did to Hogan. That was all WCW's doing, not Nash or Hall's man.
Then you have unreasonable expectations. I expected a show with a few good wrestling matches and some developments in the Punk/Kliq/Cena angle. I got that. You seem to be expecting a new blow-away "HOLY SHIT" angle like the Punk angle that started all of this every week, and that's an absurdly unfair expectation to have for any wrestling company. It wasn't a RAW to go down in the history books, but it was certainly entertaining and I thoroughly enjoyed the two hours of TV.
Then you have unreasonable expectations. I expected a show with a few good wrestling matches and some developments in the Punk/Kliq/Cena angle. I got that. You seem to be expecting a new blow-away "HOLY SHIT" angle like the Punk angle that started all of this every week, and that's an absurdly unfair expectation to have for any wrestling company. It wasn't a RAW to go down in the history books, but it was certainly entertaining and I thoroughly enjoyed the two hours of TV.
Are you still seriously going with this line of thinking? Kevin Nash did not own WCW, he had no clue about any of their finances, and had absolutely no reason to think about anything other then what was offered to him on that contract.
I'd like to see those sources because again, Nash never worked with Hogan. Maybe Hogan said it'd be a good idea to bring them in but other then that I see no relationship there.
When basically everyone in here is disagreeing with you, you may want to watch more.
I'm sure they'd say the same thing. Andre was never some tactical wizard in the ring. He was athletic for his size during his prime and was a major attraction but the guy wasn't some amazing in ring worker. Nash's work in his prime was very good.
I never said Nash was better then either guy. Taker and Vader were better workers then Nash but they were the exception, not the rule. I can find you a shit ton more big guys who Nash was better then, then you can find me ones he was worse then.
How have I embarrassed myself? I know plenty about big men in wrestling and know that there were only a select few who were better ring workers then Nash during his prime. Nash had good matches with more then just HBK and Hart. He also had some good matches with the likes of Razor Ramon and British Bulldog. Shit, he even had a couple solid matches against Sid at the first two IYH ppv's. I'm not even a big Nash mark. I like the guy as a performer but he isn't even in my top ten of favorite wrestlers.
So are you going to tell me then that Taker sucks as well because he couldn't do shit in WCW? Vince Mcmahon gives guys gimmicks but he can't control how the fans react to them and how the guys perform with them. Nash was a great performer and he got over with the fans.
Again, I'm doubting the fact that you've even seen most of his work from that time.
What crowds were you listening to? The fans were completely into The Outsiders when they came into WCW.
Living comfortably is knowing that you don't have to worry about money. You can live in a nice house, buy your family nice things, put your kids through school and never have to worry about being in debt or just getting by. Nash was offered a sum of money and he accepted. Stop trying to make it seem like he robbed a bank.
Which is why you are completely wrong.
If you want to remember him for a bunch of things that he wasn't then go right ahead.
Steamboat Ricky
WZCW's Living Legend
I don't think I expected too much at all. Attitude Era would have been all over that shit.
WWE has to build this slowly. They've got 5 weeks till NoC. They can't play all their cards and reveal that HHH/Steph/Nash are forming some kind of new Corporation superstable aimed at taking over the world with an entire month's worth of television to fill before the PPV. This is more along the lines of how storylines ought to be built, as I've argued before. Stop rushing things all the time.
Also, any claims that Nash is without talent or even possessing minimal talent should consider rewatching his matches with Bret, Undertaker, and Shawn.
Also, any claims that Nash is without talent or even possessing minimal talent should consider rewatching his matches with Bret, Undertaker, and Shawn.
Steamboat Ricky
WZCW's Living Legend
I don't want rushed...I just want a little satiation. I received none last night.
Uh, you and Sly disagreed with me to a point.
This shows how little you know. Andre frequently wrestled 60 minute matches with his opponents, was extremely agile, and had technical know how. Andre is one of, if not THE greatest big man in professional wrestling history, and to say Nash is better than him is a laugh fucking riot.
No shit you can, but being the captain of a team that includes Giant Gonzales, King Kong Bundy, and Big Bossman basically equates to being a dwarf amongst midgets. We're talking about guys who were given the chance to succeed like Nash was, and while truthfully few are able to claim to have had that privilege, the ones that can are almost all better than him... like Undertaker and Vader. I'll give you the fact that Khali was given a chance to succeed, and Nash is better than him.
And yet you compare him to Andre the Giant.
Did I say Taker sucks? No, just that it took Vince McMahon to get him over. Once he got over he proved his worth by becoming insanely popular, being a huge draw, and putting on great wrestling matches. Nash relied on Vince to get him over and then cruised on one gimmick for the rest of his career.
The fact that you think Nash was better than Andre makes me doubt a lot about you.
I don't know about all that. On the Nitro DVD the crowds were snoozing when Nash came out apart from a lukewarm pop for his arrival. Though this could once again be a case of your infamous inability to gauge audience reactions.
That's exactly what you're doing right now by remembering him as a good worker.
Dude I am as big of an attidude era fan as there is but allow me to say right now, no it wouldn't have, fuck the Attitude Era, you''re grossly overrating it. There sure as fuck was not a blow-away angle on every single week of RAW. There were several great ones that make you forget about the other shit they did at the same time which was god-awful (like the entire midcard, tag team division, and everything that didn't involve Austin, Rock, Foley or Hunter). The Attitude Era was great at the time, but that time is over and it's never coming back, and it's for the best.
There were multiple more people who disagreed with you completely on Nash's talent level.
Lol, you have no fucking clue what I know. I know damn well what Andre did back his prime but let me ask you this. How many of those 60 minute matches have you seen? Having the endurance to go 60 minutes doesn't mean that the matches were great. I'm not even sure any of his 60 minute matches exist on tape but from what I've seen of his work during the 70's vs what Nash did as Diesel, Andre was no better in the ring then Nash was during both their primes. I'm also just talking about pure in ring ability, Andre is the best most legendary big man in wrestling history but that doesn't mean he had more ability in the ring.
Fantastic. How about you give some names besides Taker and Vader. Guys like Bundy, Big John Studd, Earthquake, Yoko, Sid, etc... all of those guys were given pushes and chances to succeed but none were better then Nash in the ring.
On in ring ability and nothing more, don't try to make it seem like more then that.
When has Taker drawn more then Nash? And Nash also proved his worth in the WWE by having great matches and becoming insanely popular. You are giving the credit of Nash's solely to Vince McMahon which is absolute bullshit.
Jesus fucking Christ I said he was a better in ring worker. That's it.
Ok let's go off your Nitro DVD vs all of the people on here who watched WCW live back then. It's not like Nash debuted in the middle of the ring. He debuted by the announce table by the top of the ramp away from the crowd.
You are either absolutely out of your fucking mind or never watched his run as Diesel if you think he was a shit worker.
C'mon, JGlass, you're better than one to subscribe to the "lucky break" mentality. Furthermore, how exactly did he make WCW give him that contract? Did he walk into WCW offices and put a gun to Bischoff's head?
Completely false. No employee can ever have a company by the balls, unless the company gives them the power.
The problem here is you seem to think Nash is a bad person for maximizing his income. Are you really telling me when you get a job, you're going to go to your boss and ask him to slash your salary in half, just so your boss can make more money? Is that what you're telling me?
Absolutely.
It's pro wrestling, JGlass, it's pro wrestling. Look no further than Montreal Screwjob to see what kind of loyalty a promotion has for its workers. And Bret was a model citizen for the WWE, who had previously taken a lesser salary just to help McMahon. And how was that loyalty rewarded?
Pro wrestling is a dirty business, full of liars, cheats, thieves and scum. To be upset with someone for protecting himself against getting screwed by a promotion is silly.
Then perhaps you might wish to refrain from commenting on things you willingly choose to be ignorant of. Or better yet, learn from those who do have that knowledge.