WWE RAW 11/21/2011 - The Final Countdown Begins

[The Crock]

I'm not buying the argument at all. Sure, there has always been "tweeners", but from a historical perspective, there has always been faces and there has always been heels, and in the biggest matches at the biggest events, there has typically been a battle of heel versus face. I continue to be shocked at the overwhelming sentiment on here that a Cena heel turn is impossible, for all of the weak reasons typically out out there, when over the history of WWF/WWE, there has always been huge names who have shifted from heel to face, or vice versatile, and back again. All of these names have sold tickets and merchandise, yet none of them were beyond a turn, yet for some reason, the entire company is destined to go down the shitter if Cena were to turn heel. I just don't get it. Sure, maybe it won't happen, but people are so adamant that it is impossible, and it's like you're mentally impaired if you dare suggest it.

BTW, Crock, how did you like the eerie Tyler Black vignette

They don't need to turn either man with Rock and Cena. It's a feud built off of a mutual dislike, verging on hatred. It's playing out as an event, as something bigger than a wrestling feud -- there's no need for heel or face, it's legend against legend, Team Bring It vs Team Cena.

It's NOT impossible, I just think Cena's past it.

 

[Slyfox696]

I hope Cena turns, and fans cheer. I really do.

Odd show. Not good, not bad, just... odd.

It was like getting a blowjob from a fat girl. You know it was supposed to be good, but it just left you completely unsatisfied.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I think the biggest hurdle for fans to overcome on the whole "Cena is turning heel" train is the fact Cena has allegedly been turning heel since 2007.

Valid point, no doubt about it. The thing is, though, is that most of the speculative John Cena heel turns since 2007 have been illogical, speculation derived from some fans' dissatisfaction with his current character. Heel turns for the sake of shock value only, which would have made no sense, and therefore, were never really anything to be taken seriously.

This time, however, the logic is there. The timing is perfect. From a storyline perspective, it makes perfect sense. It doesn't have to be a permanent heel turn, in fact doesn't even have t be a long term one. But it could be a slow burn, building gradually until WM28, and could truly make an epic main event on the grandest stage of them all. The Rock has often said he would only come back to WWE if he could be part of a significant story and have a dramatic effect, and turning a uber-face, the biggest name in the business for almost a decade, that's about as significant as it gets.

All I am saying is that it shouldn't be dismissed as impossible nonsense. Maybe it won't happen, but it definitely could, and it could be epic.

 

[klunderbunker]

Another thing about Cena's heel turn: people have talked about it for YEARS. When it finally happens, everyone is going to collectively say "that's it? That's his heel turn? Lame." And then a month will pass and we'll want Cena as a face again, because, wait for it, wait for it.....

HE SHOULD NOT BE A HEEL.

 

[The Champ]

I think the biggest hurdle for fans to overcome on the whole "Cena is turning heel" train is the fact Cena has allegedly been turning heel since 2007.

Glad I'm not the only one who realized this.

Granted, there's no doubt about the fact that this is Cena's biggest feud ever, so I get why the heel turn talk is more pronounced now. But they've had plenty of chances to do it in the past and have passed up on them. I see no evidence to the idea that they won't do the same here.

 

[The Crock]

It was like getting a blowjob from a fat girl. You know it was supposed to be good, but it just left you completely unsatisfied.

 

[Slyfox696]

Valid point, no doubt about it. The thing is, though, is that most of the speculative John Cena heel turns since 2007 have been illogical, speculation derived from some fans' dissatisfaction with his current character.

Which is all this is. Because some fans boo him now (because they've NEVER done that before) he should turn heel.

This time, however, the logic is there. The timing is perfect. From a storyline perspective, it makes perfect sense. It doesn't have to be a permanent heel turn, in fact doesn't even have t be a long term one. But it could be a slow burn, building gradually until WM28, and could truly make an epic main event on the grandest stage of them all. The Rock has often said he would only come back to WWE if he could be part of a significant story and have a dramatic effect, and turning a uber-face, the biggest name in the business for almost a decade, that's about as significant as it gets.

All I am saying is that it shouldn't be dismissed as impossible nonsense. Maybe it won't happen, but it definitely could, and it could be epic.

It COULD happen, but it would not make sense at all. The WWE is building this match up as an epic encounter. Seeing a heel John Cena vs. The Rock would not make an epic encounter. To really set this match apart, you need a "face" John Cena vs. the Rock. You need the electricity, the charged atmosphere. Part of what makes Cena so unique is the fact he's a face grown boys love to boo. If you make him a heel, he loses part of that mystique which has followed him around for over half a decade now. You lose an essential element of what it means to be John Cena.

No, now more than ever, a heel turn doesn't make sense. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but it does mean it shouldn't happen. The Rock vs. Hogan was an epic encounter for the ages, and The Rock didn't have to turn heel to make it so.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Another thing about Cena's heel turn: people have talked about it for YEARS. When it finally happens, everyone is going to collectively say "that's it? That's his heel turn? Lame." And then a month will pass and we'll want Cena as a face again, because, wait for it, wait for it.....

HE SHOULD NOT BE A HEEL.

See, you may be right, I just don't see it that way. And by the way, I'm no a Cena hater by any means, I'm not one of those Cena sucks, five moves of doom, etc., guys by any stretch if the imagination. As I said earlier, sure, people have talked about it for years, but the other discussions didn't make logical sense, were not storyline driven, did not have such impeccable timing, and didn't involve an opponent of the same magnitude as the Rock. If they do the heel turn properly, I don't think people will think it's lame, or will get bored within a month. Sure, some guys will, but some guys are never satisfied no matter what you do, that's reality.

John Cena should not be a heel - long term. But a six month heel run, before he realizes the error of his ways and turns back, makes for two potentially spectacular events.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

It was like getting a blowjob from a fat girl. You know it was supposed to be good, but it just left you completely unsatisfied.

Completely unsatisfied and blow job do not belong in the same paragraph.

Don't give women any more reason to stop doing it.

 

[The Crock]

Completely unsatisfied and blow job do not belong in the same paragraph.

Don't give women any more reason to stop doing it.

Look, if a woman is going to ravage my penis as if it was a deep fried stick of butter at the county fair -- count me out.

 

[klunderbunker]

See, you may be right, I just don't see it that way. And by the way, I'm no a Cena hater by any means, I'm not one of those Cena sucks, five moves of doom, etc., guys by any stretch if the imagination. As I said earlier, sure, people have talked about it for years, but the other discussions didn't make logical sense, were not storyline driven, did not have such impeccable timing, and didn't involve an opponent of the same magnitude as the Rock. If they do the heel turn properly, I don't think people will think it's lame, or will get bored within a month. Sure, some guys will, but some guys are never satisfied no matter what you do, that's reality.

John Cena should not be a heel - long term. But a six month heel run, before he realizes the error of his ways and turns back, makes for two potentially spectacular events.

Sgt. Slaughter, a big face in the 80s, did this with the Iraq War angle and his face run after that was never what his previous one was. It's a very dangerous move to make and it rarely works. There's no need to mess with Cena as people are still paying to see him.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Which is all this is. Because some fans boo him now (because they've NEVER done that before) he should turn heel.

All due respect, but I think you're being totally dismissive of the point without fully thinking it through. It goes far deeper than the fact that some fans boo him, which as you said, they have always done and will continue to do. It's heel versus face psychology. It's generation versus generation. It's era versus era. It's a nice blend of kayfabe and reality. It's maximizing the significance of his opponent, especially considering where and when they will face off. It's loyalty versus selling out (kayfabe of course).

It COULD happen, but it would not make sense at all. The WWE is building this match up as an epic encounter. Seeing a heel John Cena vs. The Rock would not make an epic encounter. To really set this match apart, you need a "face" John Cena vs. the Rock. You need the electricity, the charged atmosphere. Part of what makes Cena so unique is the fact he's a face grown boys love to boo. If you make him a heel, he loses part of that mystique which has followed him around for over half a decade now. You lose an essential element of what it means to be John Cena.

It would make perfect sense from several perspectives. Plus it would be tremendously significant. This could be such an epic confrontation, along the lines of Rock versus Hogan, except that one was largely luck, mostly impromptu. I think the atmosphere for this encounter would transcend electricity. If done properly, the people who boo him now would continue to boo him, but so would everyone else, especially in Miami. He would have no trouble recapturing his mystique once he eventually morphs back into his face persona. In the meantime, though, we could have a main event for the ages.

No, now more than ever, a heel turn doesn't make sense. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but it does mean it shouldn't happen. The Rock vs. Hogan was an epic encounter for the ages, and The Rock didn't have to turn heel to make it so.

Now more than ever, the heel turn does make sense. It is the first time actually that the oft speculated heel turn does make sense.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

So what if a heel turn is seen and discussed for a long period of time? The Mega Powers break up did not come out of thin air. Sure a shocking heel turn can be epic but it can also leave us scratching our heads and doesn't sell more tickets to the event where it occurs. I don't see why a bunch of wrestling junkies having discussions on the internet for years saying Cena is going to turn heel should stop Cena from turning heel. They don't make the product exclusively for us.

I don't expect or want to see him turn heel prior to WM. Crock nailed it in his assessment that this is an event in itself. If it is going to happen it should be either at WM by cheating to win and beating Rocky to a bloody pulp after the match or losing to Rocky at WM (preferably losing the title at the same time) and then just losing his shit the next night and tuning in to a sadistic old Orton-like heel.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sgt. Slaughter, a big face in the 80s, did this with the Iraq War angle and his face run after that was never what his previous one was. It's a very dangerous move to make and it rarely works. There's no need to mess with Cena as people are still paying to see him.

And here's what I don't understand. What's the point? Why turn Cena heel? Do people actually have a reason, other than "to change things up"?

Disposition turns should have a purpose, usually to put a wrestler more over with a crowd. Everyone talks about how Cena should turn heel, why he should turn...but no one ever seems to think about what a heel Cena should do. What's the benefit of having a heel Cena?

Are we going to have heel Cena feud with Punk? Of course not, we just did that. Heel Cena vs. Orton? What's the point, when we've already seen it multiple times over the years? What exactly is gained by a heel Cena?


This whole "turn Cena heel" is so completely short-sighted it never fails to amaze me how often it comes up. The WWE doesn't need a heel Cena, there's no point in it.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Look, if a woman is going to ravage my penis as if it was a deep fried stick of butter at the county fair -- count me out.

Prude

 

[Slyfox696]

All due respect, but I think you're being totally dismissive of the point without fully thinking it through. It goes far deeper than the fact that some fans boo him, which as you said, they have always done and will continue to do. It's heel versus face psychology. It's generation versus generation. It's era versus era. It's a nice blend of kayfabe and reality. It's maximizing the significance of his opponent, especially considering where and when they will face off. It's loyalty versus selling out (kayfabe of course).

But Cena is the loyalty. Why would your heel be loyal?

Cena vs. Rock is not about heel vs. face psychology, nor should it. Era vs. era should represent the guy who represented the era, not the antithesis of what he once represented. To maximize this matchup, both men should be considered at their absolute height, which Cena would never be as a heel.

It would make perfect sense from several perspectives. Plus it would be tremendously significant. This could be such an epic confrontation, along the lines of Rock versus Hogan, except that one was largely luck, mostly impromptu. I think the atmosphere for this encounter would transcend electricity. If done properly, the people who boo him now would continue to boo him, but so would everyone else, especially in Miami. He would have no trouble recapturing his mystique once he eventually morphs back into his face persona. In the meantime, though, we could have a main event for the ages.

But we have that anyways! Why turn Cena heel just to get the result we're already going to have?

That doesn't make sense. People are going to boo him already. It's Wrestlemania, it's against the returning Rock in his hometown. We all know Cena is getting booed. Why does he need to be turned heel to get the exact same effect?

Now more than ever, the heel turn does make sense. It is the first time actually that the oft speculated heel turn does make sense.

No, no it doesn't. There's ZERO benefit to it, and the WWE has so much to lose.

John Cena is the face of the WWE. Not just merchandising, but in public relations. I watched Brandon Lloyd do the "You can't see me" last week in the Rams football game. John Cena does all the Make a Wish foundation appearances. Cena is one of the most popular wrestlers with the US Military. He's the only one who even has a chance to make a WWE film profitable. John Cena is the only name in wrestling which has a fairly significant mainstream appeal.

Why would you throw all of that away, just so you can achieve a situation you're already going to have? That doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Cena isn't turning heel prior to Mania. At Mania? I suppose it's possible, but very unlikely. I think his heel character is set, whenever they decide to pull the trigger. It's not like he doesn't have a million or so reasons to turn on the fans. I'm sure it will be awesome when it goes down, but I'm not sure Vince and company have enough confidence in any of the current "top faces" (Punk, Orton, etc). I could be wrong.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not sure Vince and company have enough confidence in any of the current "top faces" (Punk, Orton, etc). I could be wrong.

It has nothing to do with confidence. It's what would be achieved? Face Cena vs. Punk or Orton is just as effective as heel Cena vs. Punk or Orton. Do we really think Cena is going to start using sneak attacks and acting scared of these guys? And if he does, is that really going to make for a better feud? Of course not.

There's no benefit to a heel Cena right now. When Hulk Hogan turned, which let's face it, is the real reason everyone thinks Cena is turning heel since 2007, there was a point. There's no point in a Cena turn.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

This whole "turn Cena heel" is so completely short-sighted it never fails to amaze me how often it comes up. The WWE doesn't need a heel Cena, there's no point in it.

Forget about what the WWE needs for a minute and answer one simple question:

Would you as a fan like to see a heel John Cena in 2012?

 

[The Crock]

God no.

 

[Slyfox696]

Forget about what the WWE needs for a minute and answer one simple question:

Would you as a fan like to see a heel John Cena in 2012?

No. Why would I? What's the point? Why would anyone want to see a heel John Cena?

 

[The Crock]

This isn't TNA -- there don't need to be any swerves and random realignments, brother.

 

[Slyfox696]

This isn't TNA -- there don't need to be any swerves and random realignments, brother.

Sure there does. After all, the IWC has an attention span roughly equivalent to that of a 2 year old.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

It has nothing to do with confidence.

Sure it does. When it comes right down to it, that's what matters - can any of these guys be as effective in that role as Cena? I'm not saying it's time to turn Cena, I'm just saying Vince might hold off, even if he feels it's time (not saying he does), if he doesn't believe these other guys are up for that role.

It's what would be achieved? Face Cena vs. Punk or Orton is just as effective as heel Cena vs. Punk or Orton.

Those feuds have been done, time and time again, you said so yourself. With Cena as the heel, things could be much more interesting. Again, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but Cena as the heel would be different, and probably more entertaining (given how many matches these guys have already had against one another).

Do we really think Cena is going to start using sneak attacks and acting scared of these guys? And if he does, is that really going to make for a better feud? Of course not.

I have no idea what kind of heel Cena would be. I'm not sure he'd be a coward like Hogan and Austin were. Maybe he'd be a complete badass. Who knows. You can say it's not time, but you can't say it wouldn't be interesting.

There's no benefit to a heel Cena right now.

At this moment? I agree. I think he and Rock will do bigger business with both being faces.

When Hulk Hogan turned, which let's face it, is the real reason everyone thinks Cena is turning heel since 2007, there was a point. There's no point in a Cena turn.

Main point - we don't know where Vince is at with this. Sooner or later, it's going to happen. I don't see what Vince does (merchandise numbers, etc), so I really can't say when the best time to pull the trigger will be. But, regardless, it's going to happen, at some point.

 

[The Crock]

Sure there does. After all, the IWC has an attention span roughly equivalent to that of a 2 year old.

It's all about keeping the marks guessing!

In reality, those who have the best understanding of wrestling also have the uncanny ability to be patient and let things play out naturally. There's no need for crash booking.