WWE RAW 11/21/2011 - The Final Countdown Begins

[The_Reptile_]

... I have to admit, I like the Miz's suits, but he really needs to get rid of the faux hawk.

 

[klunderbunker]

Review is up.

Uh....What Was That?

 

[JGlass]

Cena just needs to turn heel already, he is kissing peoples asses for booing him

That's stupid

Your face is stupid. He gets the biggest reaction in the WWE regardless of whether it's positive or negative, and that only adds to his character. What don't you get about that?

 

[Brahma_Bull9]

Um, is Truth turning face and Miz getting a big push? I'm not really sure what to make of this being the end of Raw

my thoughts exactly what a stupid ending

You send them out there for the final 15 minutes. Have Cena kiss the fans asses for booing them, kiss the Rock's ass when all he does is disrespect him and Rock bottomed him....

Then you have R-truth and Miz come out.... they did good mic work, but it all just seemed lame, and the turn? Who is turning? stupid stupid stupid in my opinion. I'm guessing Truth is supposed to go face? I like him a lot better as a heel but we will see

 

[Brahma_Bull9]

Your face is stupid. He gets the biggest reaction in the WWE regardless of whether it's positive or negative, and that only adds to his character. What don't you get about that?

Good one...

If he gets the biggest reaction postive or negative why can't he go heel?

I wasn't saying he sucks or he gets no reaction, but really? You are gonna say you love how the WWE "Universe" speaks their mind when they are saying you suck at your job?

Nobody would do what he is doing, certainly not a professional athlete. The character is getting old, the clean cut, "I hold myself to higher standards" crap. But yea, fuck off and save your shit for somebody else.

 

[JGlass]

Good one...

If he gets the biggest reaction postive or negative why can't he go heel?

I wasn't saying he sucks or he gets no reaction, but really? You are gonna say you love how the WWE "Universe" speaks their mind when they are saying you suck at your job?

Nobody would do what he is doing, certainly not a professional athlete. The character is getting old, the clean cut, "I hold myself to higher standards" crap. But yea, fuck off and save your shit for somebody else.

Because he's the face of the company. He sells the most merchandise, and people pay big bucks to see him. Turning him heel would make for some interesting television, but if history has taught us anything it's that stars sell tickets, not good stories.

I think Cena is hoping to usher in an era where fans will root for whomever they want. It's an era where a guy doesn't have to get TV time to become one of the most popular guys in the company, and it's a time where a guy can go from an upper midcarder to a legit megastar in one promo. Whether you like it or not, Cena spearheaded that movement by refusing to change his character for a vocal minority.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Heel vs. Heel? Not in the WWE you don't. Truth will put Miz over here. May be interesting where they Truth's character next, then again may get really lame.

 

[The Champ]

Neither guy is turning. They did this so they can both resume singles careers. Realistically, they could have only been a tag team for so long, and now Punk has two new potential challengers.

 

[Harthan]

Because he's the face of the company. He sells the most merchandise, and people pay big bucks to see him. Turning him heel would make for some interesting television, but if history has taught us anything it's that stars sell tickets, not good stories.

I think Cena is hoping to usher in an era where fans will root for whomever they want. It's an era where a guy doesn't have to get TV time to become one of the most popular guys in the company, and it's a time where a guy can go from an upper midcarder to a legit megastar in one promo. Whether you like it or not, Cena spearheaded that movement by refusing to change his character for a vocal minority.

I think the argument about merchandise is rather amusing, as if Cena won't sell merchandise when he's a heel. nWo, anybody?

Cena is approaching the point where he would make more money as a heel than he would as a face, and everybody knows it.

 

[Slyfox696]

Cena is approaching the point where he would make more money as a heel than he would as a face, and everybody knows it.

And I think Cena is far closer to reaching the point where he's not a heel or face, he's just a superstar. So the idea of "turning heel" or "being a face" really doesn't apply.

 

[JGlass]

Cena is approaching the point where he would make more money as a heel than he would as a face, and everybody knows it.

I disagree wholeheartedly. First of all, as Sly said, Cena is approaching an area where he's neither face nor heel, so the concept doesn't apply. However, if he was to go full heel, his sales would drop. Kids don't buy heel merchandise, and the Cena haters would in all likelihood keep on keeping on with their hate.

 

[Harthan]

And I think Cena is far closer to reaching the point where he's not a heel or face, he's just a superstar. So the idea of "turning heel" or "being a face" really doesn't apply.

I'm not even certain this is a real thing.

I disagree wholeheartedly. First of all, as Sly said, Cena is approaching an area where he's neither face nor heel, so the concept doesn't apply. However, if he was to go full heel, his sales would drop. Kids don't buy heel merchandise, and the Cena haters would in all likelihood keep on keeping on with their hate.

I doubt it. Give heel Cena a well designed T-shirt and it would probably sell like hotcakes. Not to mention that other superstars are more than capable of shoring up the merchandise. Furthermore, heel Cena would probably draw ratings and PPV buys. All these factors considered would probably make the WWE more money in the end.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Neither guy is turning. They did this so they can both resume singles careers. Realistically, they could have only been a tag team for so long, and now Punk has two new potential challengers.

Only Cena gets taken out like that and does not retaliate physically. Either Truth has some undisclosed injury and is going to disappear for awhile or they are going to have a feud.

 

[The Champ]

Yeah, the idea that turning Cena heel is going to gain him legions of new male fans is amusing.

And even if it did, what would that accomplish? You'd still probably sell less merchandise, he'd get the same split reactions, and it wouldn't sell one more damn ticket to Mania. People are going to buy it purely based on the fact that it's Cena vs. Rock. They don't need to make it a good vs. bad thing. In fact, I see no reason why, in an "Icon vs. Icon" match, both guys shouldn't stick to the characters that made them famous.

 

[The Crock]

I disagree wholeheartedly. First of all, as Sly said, Cena is approaching an area where he's neither face nor heel, so the concept doesn't apply. However, if he was to go full heel, his sales would drop. Kids don't buy heel merchandise, and the Cena haters would in all likelihood keep on keeping on with their hate.

First off, let me address what you and Slyfox have both said here: Cena certainly IS passing the point of heel or face. He's becoming plain ol' John Cena, no alignment necessary. I liken it to The Rock, actually. He can be seen as face or as heel, but it doesn't matter. He transcends that.

Now, let's say Cena were to turn (although he's past that), I'd have to completely agree. Children, as fickle as this sounds, see wrestling as black and white. Their understanding of it isn't as deep as ours -- so in an audience largely populate by children, buyrates for heel merchandise are low, as they cheer for the "good guy."

 

[The Champ]

I doubt it. Give heel Cena a well designed T-shirt and it would probably sell like hotcakes. Not to mention that other superstars are more than capable of shoring up the merchandise. Furthermore, heel Cena would probably draw ratings and PPV buys. All these factors considered would probably make the WWE more money in the end.

Top selling WWE Authentic shirts on WWE Shop (in the men category, so not including kids or women):

CM Punk Best in the World
John Cena Persevere
Rock Team Bring It USA
Triple H Skull Kings
Stone Cold Steve Austin Stomping Mudholes
John Cena Rise Above Hate
Edge Farewell
The Rock Boots to Asses
Undertaker Last Outlaw
The Miz You Are Not

It took me TEN shirts to find the highest selling heel shirt. Ten. Please stop with this ridiculous notion that Cena will sell just as much as a heel. And let me reiterate that this is in the MEN category of WWE Shop, which would be the presumed demographic he would sell to. It goes without saying that he's number one in the women's and kids sections.

 

[hatehabsforever]

With each passing day I am more and more convinced that the John Cena heel turn is imminent. Those of you who dismiss it outright as impossible due to merchandise sales are incorrect.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

Jonah Hill is the best guest star ever!

 

[The Crock]

With each passing day I am more and more convinced that the John Cena heel turn is imminent. Those of you who dismiss it outright as impossible due to merchandise sales are incorrect.

It's not solely based on merchandise sales, I'm sure Cena would stay relatively high, just not at his current level -- I'm just starting to agree with Sly and JGlass, I really feel like he's past that. He can play up to his supporters and play up to his detractors. He antagonized his haters, at times, while showing undying loyalty to his fans. He's not a tweener, but he's just, for lack of a better term, there.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

The Cena transcends face and heel talk is bunk. He transcends face. He is far closer to Gandhi at this point than a heel. He wears Rise Above Hate shirts and has made no effort to get even physically with the guy that screwed him over at WM 27 and again last night.

I don't care if he is going to be a heel or face just cut solid promos, show some anger and get violent.

 

[The Champ]

It is pretty stupid booking that Cena continuously does not care that Rock beats him up. He needs to stop complimenting Rock and start telling everyone how he's better and how he'll beat Rock at WrestleMania. This can be done without any type of drastic character change.

 

[hatehabsforever]

It's not solely based on merchandise sales, I'm sure Cena would stay relatively high, just not at his current level -- I'm just starting to agree with Sly and JGlass, I really feel like he's past that. He can play up to his supporters and play up to his detractors. He antagonized his haters, at times, while showing undying loyalty to his fans. He's not a tweener, but he's just, for lack of a better term, there.

I'm not buying the argument at all. Sure, there has always been "tweeners", but from a historical perspective, there has always been faces and there has always been heels, and in the biggest matches at the biggest events, there has typically been a battle of heel versus face. I continue to be shocked at the overwhelming sentiment on here that a Cena heel turn is impossible, for all of the weak reasons typically out out there, when over the history of WWF/WWE, there has always been huge names who have shifted from heel to face, or vice versatile, and back again. All of these names have sold tickets and merchandise, yet none of them were beyond a turn, yet for some reason, the entire company is destined to go down the shitter if Cena were to turn heel. I just don't get it. Sure, maybe it won't happen, but people are so adamant that it is impossible, and it's like you're mentally impaired if you dare suggest it.

BTW, Crock, how did you like the eerie Tyler Black vignette

 

[The Champ]

WCW turned Hogan heel because they needed to do something that would get the fans' attention. Rock vs. Cena has the fans' attention already.

WWE realized later on that turning Stone Cold heel had been a mistake.

How about we learn from our mistakes and try not to make them again?

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not buying the argument at all. Sure, there has always been "tweeners", but from a historical perspective, there has always been faces and there has always been heels, and in the biggest matches at the biggest events, there has typically been a battle of heel versus face. I continue to be shocked at the overwhelming sentiment on here that a Cena heel turn is impossible, for all of the weak reasons typically out out there, when over the history of WWF/WWE, there has always been huge names who have shifted from heel to face, or vice versatile, and back again. All of these names have sold tickets and merchandise, yet none of them were beyond a turn, yet for some reason, the entire company is destined to go down the shitter if Cena were to turn heel. I just don't get it. Sure, maybe it won't happen, but people are so adamant that it is impossible, and it's like you're mentally impaired if you dare suggest it.

I think the biggest hurdle for fans to overcome on the whole "Cena is turning heel" train is the fact Cena has allegedly been turning heel since 2007.

While we're at it, Sting is signing a one match contract to have a match with Undertaker at Wrestlemania, Bret and Shawn are going to come out and say it was all just a work, Stephanie McMahon is going to say she really did snap into Randy Savage's Slim Jim.


Or....not.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I hope Cena turns, and fans cheer. I really do.

Odd show. Not good, not bad, just... odd.