WWE RAW LD 7/11/2011 - This Fire Burns

[Rokitka]

Where's this CM Punk been?

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

He was also in the closing (which was the main) segment, so that doesn't say a lot IMO. And the dark main event.

Cena was the second (or third) fiddle in that segment. The segment was not about him.

 

[Rokitka]

I think it also kind of shows the direction that the company might be heading toward. Cena fought the opening match. The opening.fucking.match. When was the last time that happened?

In what way? More of an ensemble or just a new focal star?

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I mean...Cena wasn't the main guy last night. Whether he is getting cheered or booed, he is generally ALWAYS the main guy (with the exception of his feuds w/ Rock). Even with Orton, Orton was always #2.

Granted, I have no real solid argument for this, other than the way I perceive them. But after all, that's how "overness" is determined.

 

[Coco]

Cena's wrestled in the first match many a time. Happened earlier this year in fact. No reason to make a big deal of that.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Cena's wrestled in the first match many a time. Happened earlier this year in fact. No reason to make a big deal of that.

Sure there is.

 

[Shocky]

The WWE has worked this angle so well. They know exactly what they're getting into with this Sunday and have played us smarks like a fiddle. I'm lapping the shit up. Punk is meant to get our smarky panties wet, and he's doing a masterful job.

 

[JJYanks121]

Anyone that hates John Cena the person is a misguided individual. John Cena the character is undeniably designed to appeal to kids in much broader numbers than adults. Not only is it obvious from the way he is used but he has even admitted as much on many occasions. Why then is it so crazy that a fair amount of adults dislike the character because they simply do not find it appealing? You can still respect someone but not like the character they play at all. When it comes to being in a wrestling crowd you are supposed to respond to the character.

And they do moreso than any wrestler on the planet. Problem is, people think it's "cool" to hate on Cena because they interpret him as "for kids". If you get past that second grade interpretation, you could appreciate what he does on every level. I'm not going further because I don't care all that much, but just know that Cena hate is about as cool as JNCO jeans in 2011. Cool for 6 months maybe, but incredibly lame today.

Oh you silly New Yorkers. Jeter is anything but a squeaky clean pure hero. He is smug, has been a womanizer and just look at how he handled Arod for much of the time he has been there.

Again, rather than have a real opinion, you spout nonsense to try and be a hater. Jeter IS a great role model and has always been. So he dated a lot of women when he was single. What's the big deal? Are single men not allowed to try dating different women? He didn't rape them, he didn't cheat on any of them, there was never a scandal with any of it. He was just a single guy dating. Fact is, the only people that find that bad are those that are jealous of the quality of women he was dating. Better to date around than to get married and then bang strippers and ****es like Tiger Woods right? I mean those are low class women. Jeter was dating the most classy and beautiful women in the world. Hardly a scandal. As for the A-Rod thing, it was tough at first but watch them now. For like 4 years now, they've been just fine. That was more of a media-driven story than anything else. Quite honestly, so is the women thing. Jeter has been so spotless as a person that the media looks for scandals because they can't believe how good a dude he is. They can't understand how a guy can pass on dousing champagne to give his parents and sister a hug first. They can't understand how a guy can hand over his car keys when taking his first sip of wine. They can't understand how he NEVER slips up in an interview. The fact of the matter is, he lives his life right and the fact that YOU just challenged it proves my point that he's EXACTLY like Cena. Same with Tim Tebow. People don't want to believe that there are good dudes out there. They want to find scandal and it pisses them off when there is none. Thus, my analogy of Jeter to Cena works perfectly, as both men are heroes to many, but vilified by a minority (more for Cena than Jeter I think) for the dumbest reasons imaginable. If you want, I will send you a personal antecdote about Jeter (I met him in 1997), so you can understand just what type of guy he really is. But thanks for proving my point. Jeter is a hero to so many and he should be. Parents should want their kids to grow up to be like Derek Jeter. Selfless, team oriented, hard worker, never breaks the law. What's not to like? That's for the smark to decide.

How can you even focus on the ring with that much gratuitous use of color and tackiness surrounding you?

So, go to a Chicago Bulls game, or an LSU Tigers game, or a New York Mets or Florida Gator game. Surely no one there can focus on the game due to wearing Red, Purple and Yellow, and Orange and Blue respectively. I know this isn't my topic, but I had to get one last jab in. I figured, why the hell not?

 

[shattered dreams]

And they do moreso than any wrestler on the planet. Problem is, people think it's "cool" to hate on Cena because they interpret him as "for kids". If you get past that second grade interpretation, you could appreciate what he does on every level. I'm not going further because I don't care all that much, but just know that Cena hate is about as cool as JNCO jeans in 2011. Cool for 6 months maybe, but incredibly lame today.

But Cena is "for kids." This is a valid interpretation. The idea that people "hate" Cena because they think it is "cool" opposed to what his character actually does is anything but a fact. In fact I would be pretty tempted to call that "bullshit." No one goes to a movie and says well I know the director worked really hard on this script and doesn't have a dui so I will pretend I like it.

On Jeter, you are sweeping a lot of questionable activity under the rug (media did it etc.), especially on the Arod issue. You are the one that basically said he was perfect. I am not disputing him probably being a good guy, just him being inhumanely heroic.

 

[Coco]

Sure there is.

If you need something to talk about, sure. But not really.

 

[The Black Death]

You have to be kidding. Have you not been reading this thread at all?

I've posted 40 times in this thread (well, 41 with this post) and the majority addresses what you have said. Go read.

I have read this entire thread including everything you've said and all you've proven is how arrogant you really are. You like to say you're never wrong but if that were the case why does everyone in this thread seem to disagree with everything you've said. Please enlighten me oh wise one.

 

[JJYanks121]

But Cena is "for kids." This is a valid interpretation. The idea that people "hate" Cena because they think it is "cool" opposed to what his character actually does is anything but a fact. In fact I would be pretty tempted to call that "bullshit." No one goes to a movie and says well I know the director worked really hard on this script and doesn't have a dui so I will pretend I like it.

On Jeter, you are sweeping a lot of questionable activity under the rug (media did it etc.), especially on the Arod issue. You are the one that basically said he was perfect. I am not disputing him probably being a good guy, just him being inhumanely heroic.

Ok, so let's take this comparison even further since you never seem to get anything. No one is perfect. No hero is. But a real life hero is someone that has inherently good qualities. The "A-Rod issue" is all you got, and all that was, if it was anything, was two superstars sharing a spotlight. There was a little tension for a little while, but after a year or two, it was resolved. Watch the games now, the two guys are always laughing and smiling with one another. If you read Joe Torre's book, most people didn't like A-Rod when he first came to the Yankees because he was trying to be too fake. I think Jeter probably caught on to that as well. Once he got over that and started being real, everyone started to like him. The reason Jeter was brought into this thing in the first place is because he is the captain and thus, unfair criticism falls on him, just like...........John Cena. Cena is the go-to guy in the WWE, so he's an easy scapegoat.

Let's stay on par though. You are trying to prove that Jeter is a bad guy and you are nowhere near doing it. Every opponent and teammate he's ever had praises him for hustling on every play and playing the game right. In that sense, you would tell your kid to "play the game like Jeter" right? As far as life off the baseball diamond, he spends most of his time on his charitable foundation which is run by him and his sister. He says and does all the right things and the ONLY time he's ever in the tabloids is when he's on a date with a beautiful celebrity. Lately he hasn't because he has settled down with a beautiful celebrity, but since they don't fight and he doesn't cheat like his teammate, A-Rod, it's never talked about. You can try and find flaw in the guy and I'm sure you will because he's human, but as far as humans go, he's a freakin great role model. I couldn't name 3 athletes I'd rather a kid emulate than Derek Jeter. Tim Tebow perhaps, but how many others? Jeter is a great guy and you really have nothing on him. Nobody does and THAT is what annoys you.

For some reason, people like scandal, people like drama. That's actually why we watch wrestling in a sense. So when you find someone devoid of the drama, you hate on him for nonsensical reasons. Jeter is a human being who lives life the right way. That's why he is universally respected in baseball and why he has so much fan support. He has detractors because of the reasons I've mentioned, but Jeter is a great guy. I do offer you my antecdote again if you want personal proof. PM me if you are interested in it.

 

[Slyfox696]

I have read this entire thread including everything you've said and all you've proven is how arrogant you really are.

It's amazing how often I've proven that. Usually every time I debate. Try something original next time junior.

You like to say you're never wrong

I speak no lie.

but if that were the case why does everyone in this thread seem to disagree with everything you've said. Please enlighten me oh wise one.

Oh, because popular opinion in the IWC on a wrestling message board is unwritten law of correctness?

Go back to debate class, son, you've got a long ways to go.

 

[shattered dreams]

Let's stay on par though. You are trying to prove that Jeter is a bad guy and you are nowhere near doing it.

I am trying to do what? I think you need to read again. I am not the type of person that puts any stock in one person's anecdotes as evidence of much of anything but you can PM it to me if you want. I thought we were discussing Cena?

 

[JJYanks121]

I am trying to do what? I think you need to read again. I am not the type of person that puts any stock in one person's anecdotes as evidence of much of anything but you can PM it to me if you want. I thought we were discussing Cena?

We weren't. I used Jeter as a real life athlete to compare to Cena in the sense that both do the right thing and get "smarky hatred" for being good people. Cena the character (and man too probably) and Derek Jeter the man and athlete. Truth is, I took more exception to the Jeter thing because it's flat out ridiculous. We could drop that if you admit that Jeter is a good guy and worth looking up to if you are a kid and worth praising as an adult for being a man of values. If you can't say that, you are either ignorant or stupid, so let's give it a shot.

If you want to discuss Cena, we can. It's my least favorite topic to discuss because it brings out the worst in people, but we can discuss it. John Cena the character has a lot of levels. The thing I've grown to like about the character of John Cena is that he regularly give s a big F U (not the move, a metaphor spoken through his actions) to his detractors. Every "u cint wrastel" makes him hit one more suplex or dropkick. Every "hez 2 mush 4 da kidz" leads to him bringing a little edge to promos that gets readily ignored. Every "hez supermanz!" brings another loss to his resume, yet he still never loses? I honestly think at this point that he could come to the ring, talk about TNA, have Vince come out, take a giant, smelly shit on Vince and tell him in these exact words "go fuck yourself", and people would still say he's "only for the kids".

All I'm trying to say is that while he has appeal to kids, he also has appeal to adults who have an appreciation for professional wrestling. If you are able to take off the goggles, you can see that. About the only thing worth arguing is that you say Cena is ONLY for kids, when that's very far from the truth.

 

[shattered dreams]

When did I say Cena was only for kids? When did I say Jeter wasn't a good guy as far as I knew? (not sure why you think Jeter is so hated, he isn't outside of new england)

Didn't you engage in Abyss bashing during abyssamania? Why is that so different?

I have no problem with adults enjoying Cena. What I have a problem with is the idea that there is something inherently wrong with an adult not enjoying Cena.

 

[JJYanks121]

When did I say Cena was only for kids? When did I say Jeter wasn't a good guy as far as I knew? (not sure why you think Jeter is so hated, he isn't outside of new england)

Didn't you engage in Abyss bashing during abyssamania? Why is that so different?

I have no problem with adults enjoying Cena. What I have a problem with is the idea that there is something inherently wrong with an adult not enjoying Cena.

I don't think Jeter is so hated. I KNOW he's not. I just no he gets a small minority of hate and it seemed like you were part of it.

So can we agree that since Cena is ok with getting mixed reactions, that it's ok to feel differently about him? And can we agree that Jeter, until something awful comes out, is a good guy and worthy of being a role model?

 

[The Black Death]

It's amazing how often I've proven that. Usually every time I debate. Try something original next time junior.

How about this, I'll try something original when you learn some humility.

I speak no lie.

Yes you do, everything you type is a lie. Saying you're never wrong and saying you're a god is flat out bullshit.

Oh, because popular opinion in the IWC on a wrestling message board is unwritten law of Correctness?

No, but at the same time something you say isn't automatically fact, just because you're an Admin on a wrestling forum doesn't mean you're perfect so stop acting like you are.

Go back to debate class, son, you've got a long ways to go.

I'm not trying to debate you, I'm doing what alot of people don't have the balls to do and that's calling you out on your bullshit.

 

[shattered dreams]

So can we agree that since Cena is ok with getting mixed reactions, that it's ok to feel differently about him?

I never disagreed with that although it seemed like you did. As far as Jeter goes I am not a big fan of people idolizing athletes, even if they appear to not be involved in the crap far too many of them get dragged down in.

 

[shattered dreams]

Cena would have showed up to the all-star game ...

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I'm not trying to debate you, I'm doing what alot of people don't have the balls to do and that's calling you out on your bullshit.

Uh...this is not something that hasn't been done before, bra. Sly is correct most of the time. Arrogant? Yes. A dick? Absolutely. But he's damn good at a debate.

For other examples of "having balls," note any number of threads dominated by X and/or myself or various board room threads from the Spring/Summer of 2008.

 

[JGlass]

The Prince of Darkness thinks he's a keyboard warrior when he's really nothing but a pencil necked geek who thinks he has an original idea.

You're all pencil necked geeks.

 

[Slyfox696]

How about this, I'll try something original when you learn some humility.

Arrogance is at least entertaining. Being unoriginal is boring.

Yes you do, everything you type is a lie. Saying you're never wrong and saying you're a god is flat out bullshit.

Someone has been taking far too many classes at the Literal Academy.

No, but at the same time something you say isn't automatically fact, just because you're an Admin on a wrestling forum doesn't mean you're perfect so stop acting like you are.

First thing you've said right.

It's not the fact I'm an Admin that makes me perfect, I was perfect long before I was Admin.

I'm not trying to debate you, I'm doing what alot of people don't have the balls to do and that's calling you out on your bullshit.

Do you have any ideas how many times I've read that on WZ? I really should keep track, it's probably in the triple digits.

It's amazing how highly you think of yourself, when you're little more than a puppet regurgitation the same lines I've read hundreds of times over the years.

Get over yourself sport, you're not that cool.

Uh...this is not something that hasn't been done before, bra. Sly is correct most of the time. Arrogant? Yes. A dick? Absolutely. But he's damn good at a debate.

I've never agreed with you more.

For other examples of "having balls," note any number of threads dominated by X and/or myself or various board room threads from the Spring/Summer of 2008.

And to think you had been doing so well...

Debated? Yes. Wrongly? Absolutely.

I will say this. I'd much rather debate you or X than this mental midget. At least SOME effort would be required.

 

[The Black Death]

Uh...this is not something that hasn't been done before, bra. Sly is correct most of the time. Arrogant? Yes. A dick? Absolutely. But he's damn good at a debate.

For other examples of "having balls," note any number of threads dominated by X and/or myself or various board room threads from the Spring/Summer of 2008.

First of all bra, I didn't say everyone was lacking in the "testicular" department, I only said that alot of people are too scared to disagree with Sly because of what might happen. There's far too many people on this forum willing to kiss Sly's ass like he was a god. Secondly I wasn't around in 2008 so I didn't have a chance to read those threads you claim are out there yet. Plus there's the fact I don't have access to the board rooms and probably never will so I'll have to take your word on that. Like I said earlier, I wasn't saying everyone is scared of Sly but there is certainly quite the few posters out there that cower everytime Sly enters a thread.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Shit, son. Ain't like we going to turn into a pillar of salt if we disagree with Sly.