I know. What I'm saying is that Rock often did his moves in that exact same sequence. Also, a chair shot is not a move. Spitting water in someone's face is also not a move. Insulting people on the mic sure as hell isn't a move. I'll give you the DDT, but that's still a sequence of about six or seven moves as opposed to Cena's five or six (shoulder block, protobomb, FKS, top rope legdrop, AA, STF). At the end of the day it really doesn't matter if Rock used an extra move or two because the format was the exact same - and it's one that's been used in wrestling for years and years, and it's one that works.
**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)
- Thread starter Jack-Hammer
- Start date
#hamler
That's all folks.
Ironically, storytelling leads you through that match. How horrible would it have been to see Steve Austin do nothing but kick The Rock's ass? In fact, take out the selling, trash talking, pretty much anything entertaining throughout the match. No storytelling = shitty match.
Austin had a very limited moveset. What was it that made his matches worth the money your mommy spent on the ppv? Storytelling.
Sure he did. Usually, the face does.
As I have pointed out, the five moves of doom is irrelevant when deterring how great of a wrestler someone is. Shawn Michaels did the five moves of doom but he turned out great. John Cena is a great wrestler and I have yet to see any definitive proof that he is not.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
I honestly know how I want to respond, but I can't put it into words. Well Rock didn't simply get his ass beat, then out of nowhere like he had just woke up start a 5 move sequence and go for a finisher. Cena has actually ended matches that way in less than 5 minutes with no counter from the opponent during the whole sequence. The Rock usually would pull out a desperation DDT and go back down. Then the ref would start the double count out.
Rock didn't do the Superman shtick. Oh and I thought of another way of putting my views on this out there. Cena and Hogan work the Superman formula while guys like Stone Cold, Kurt Angle and CM Punk work the Batman formula. Cena and Hogan are big and strong but lack any real technique in their ring work. Now CM Punk and Angle especially have alot of technique and are high skilled, but are obviously mortal, as is Batman, so they usually have an even paced match execute the finisher out of nowhere to pick up the win. Obviously the finisher part doesn't apply but it certainly does with Austin and Punk.
Rock didn't do the Superman shtick. Oh and I thought of another way of putting my views on this out there. Cena and Hogan work the Superman formula while guys like Stone Cold, Kurt Angle and CM Punk work the Batman formula. Cena and Hogan are big and strong but lack any real technique in their ring work. Now CM Punk and Angle especially have alot of technique and are high skilled, but are obviously mortal, as is Batman, so they usually have an even paced match execute the finisher out of nowhere to pick up the win. Obviously the finisher part doesn't apply but it certainly does with Austin and Punk.
I don't know why you Cena defenders keep bringing up the 5 moves of Doom. No one has used that as their main argument over these last few pages. But since you insist on countering an argument that doesn't exist, I'll say this: Cena's 5 moves of Doom < Everyone else's.
It's suspense. When, if at all, is his opponent going to reach the point where they can no longer tap out? Conversely, we can have Cena just slap on the STF at any time, no matter the situation, and be guaranteed a win. And please, let's not even pretend that Cena is "targeting body parts". He slams them and punches them. That's all.
The Champ said:
It's suspense. When, if at all, is his opponent going to reach the point where they can no longer tap out? Conversely, we can have Cena just slap on the STF at any time, no matter the situation, and be guaranteed a win. And please, let's not even pretend that Cena is "targeting body parts". He slams them and punches them. That's all.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Lmao, thank you RedStar, for saying what I couldn't find the words to say ( or type, as Champ would probably like a douche point out that we type online and don't "say" anything).
Also, I would just like to say that Batman is cooler than Superman in every conceivable way. I just hope all the Cena fans who come in here are smart enough to get what this metaphor means.
CM Punk = Batman John Cena = wannabe Superman
Also, I would just like to say that Batman is cooler than Superman in every conceivable way. I just hope all the Cena fans who come in here are smart enough to get what this metaphor means.
CM Punk = Batman John Cena = wannabe Superman
IrishMcNaughton613
AWESOME
honestly people. we can't really bash cena's mic skills because he does have it. his in ring performance is the problem. I agree his chain gang era was awesome but he is a joke now. You can pander to the crowed without being there captain america. Who do they think he is HOGAN lol. Really REALLY
Then what is your argument for Cena not being a good wrestler? I'm curious. And how the fuck are Cena's five moves less than everyone else's? They certainly pop the crowd just as much.
Yeah, he slams them because his finisher targets their back. That's more than Angle does. And please remind me where I said that anyone should put their finisher on at the beginning of the match, because it's escaping me.
Angle does a million german suplexes and an Angle Slam to set up for the Ankle Lock. And then he forgets to grapevine the Ankle Lock until like the fifth time he uses it. In what world is that good ring psychology?
I love how you apparently know how I would respond when you didn't even know who I was until yesterday when this argument started. Funny stuff.PunkNation26 said:
1TheGreatOne1
Dark Match Winner
What i don't like about Cena:
His corny promos. The main reason i dislike him. I mean, cooooome on. Creative please write him some decent material that's not cheesy & cringe-worthy. I know he's a babyface & childrens hero, but he can still connect with everyone over the age of 12.
His merchandise. I know a slightly vain reason why i dislike him..when i see his red cap and shirt along w/ his jorts i really find it hard to take him seriously. I liked his merch in 2006, the white shirt & black shorts.
His in-ring ability: I am not gonna say he can't wrestle because he can. I've seen old clips from 2002-04 and he was good. (btw when's the last time he done a DDT? yeah 8 years ago..) He's just become lazy and sloppy, he butchers a lot of moves and just doesn't try hard enough, that's my problem. He no sells most of the time and makes his opponents look really weak.
5-moves-of-doom; i know every wrestler has their 5 moves. But Cena's are lame. 2x shoulder tackles, 5 knuckle shuffle, STFU (which doesn't look like it's exceuted right most of the time) the FU. . sometimes he does the dropkick. He does them all in the same order & and for years never added to his moveset. Only recently has he done this. FINALLY.
Constant title matches: 12 time champ in less than 6 years? really?!?!?
On Twitter he laughs it off about how stale his character is..he's seriously in denial. He believes people boo him because it's cool or they just like to take their frustrations out on him.
So, he thinks his character is good? nothing needs to be changed or tweeked after 6 fucking years of the same crap?
The Rock coming back & the rise of CM Punk has showed us that Cena really & truly is stale.
His corny promos. The main reason i dislike him. I mean, cooooome on. Creative please write him some decent material that's not cheesy & cringe-worthy. I know he's a babyface & childrens hero, but he can still connect with everyone over the age of 12.
His merchandise. I know a slightly vain reason why i dislike him..when i see his red cap and shirt along w/ his jorts i really find it hard to take him seriously. I liked his merch in 2006, the white shirt & black shorts.
His in-ring ability: I am not gonna say he can't wrestle because he can. I've seen old clips from 2002-04 and he was good. (btw when's the last time he done a DDT? yeah 8 years ago..) He's just become lazy and sloppy, he butchers a lot of moves and just doesn't try hard enough, that's my problem. He no sells most of the time and makes his opponents look really weak.
5-moves-of-doom; i know every wrestler has their 5 moves. But Cena's are lame. 2x shoulder tackles, 5 knuckle shuffle, STFU (which doesn't look like it's exceuted right most of the time) the FU. . sometimes he does the dropkick. He does them all in the same order & and for years never added to his moveset. Only recently has he done this. FINALLY.
Constant title matches: 12 time champ in less than 6 years? really?!?!?
On Twitter he laughs it off about how stale his character is..he's seriously in denial. He believes people boo him because it's cool or they just like to take their frustrations out on him.
So, he thinks his character is good? nothing needs to be changed or tweeked after 6 fucking years of the same crap?
The Rock coming back & the rise of CM Punk has showed us that Cena really & truly is stale.
He's connected with me, and last time I checked I was older than 12. And plenty of others on here and anywhere would say the same thing. Cena does have male fans. I get not liking his cheesy sense of humor, but it's not like he hasn't cut some damn good serious promos when given the chance.
His merchandise is designed to appeal to the kids, and to be honest I like the brightly colored shirts. It's more interesting to me than every other wrestler who has a black shirt with his logo on it. Jean shorts are obviously way out of style but he's made it work for him, and you can't hate on a guy who wears Jordans in the ring.
He's a better wrestler now than he was in 2002-04. He doesn't butcher "a lot of moves." There are a couple of occasions where I can remember sloppiness from him but it doesn't happen all the time. Also, am I the only person who remembers how Punk limped to the ring at the beginning of Raw this week and then was jumping all over the place at the end of it? Same thing.
You could say that any wrestler's five moves are "lame." I personally enjoy Cena's more than those of most other wrestlers.
Blame that on booking, not Cena. WWE presses the panic button way too much, I'll agree. Not Cena's fault.
Rock hasn't really evolved his character at all either, his shtick is still pretty much the same as it's always been. But I wouldn't want him to change it because I love it and it works for him. Same thing with Cena. Punk is a little different but if you're so upset with Cena as the top guy, why not focus on praising Punk instead of bashing Cena?
1TheGreatOne1
Dark Match Winner
Lol?
You honestly believe there's nothing wrong with Cena? nothing needs to be changed?
Can sit through his matches with the same schtick & predict the ending..*oh shit he wins again*
I want better from Cena, i use to be a fan back in 2003, but ever since he won against JBL in 2005 i knew he'd turn into Hogan 2.0.
He probably hates being booed too, but just laughs it off. Vince just can't stop kissing his ass.
You honestly believe there's nothing wrong with Cena? nothing needs to be changed?
Can sit through his matches with the same schtick & predict the ending..*oh shit he wins again*
I want better from Cena, i use to be a fan back in 2003, but ever since he won against JBL in 2005 i knew he'd turn into Hogan 2.0.
He probably hates being booed too, but just laughs it off. Vince just can't stop kissing his ass.
Actually Cena lost two PPVs in a row before winning the title back, and when he did win it, I thought he was going to lose. So no, I don't think his matches are all that predictable. And he doesn't care about being booed anymore, you can tell it in his face. He cared in 2006, but he's over it now.
Like I said before, if this thread is just all the Cena haters agreeing with each other then it's not really a discussion. This is a discussion forum and therefore, in a thread about Cena I'm allowed to express my opinion on Cena. Good or bad. I wouldn't fault anyone else for doing the same if it were a Punk bashing thread or a Cena appreciation thread.
The Future Rises
Thinking Of A New Name..
I hate to be "that guy".. I don't hate Cena but I thought this was a "Cena bashing thread"?
If there's anything wrong with Cena it's the fact that he gets booed by half of the crowd. He's supposed to be the face of the company. And I'm not blaming him for making a lot of fans think he's "stale" and he does the "same old shit" but Cena needs to add a certain edge to win over those fans. Whether he cares about getting booed or not he's the face of the company. And getting booed by half the crowd has been going on for years now.
1TheGreatOne1
Dark Match Winner
Cena's the most booed face in WWE history..
No one was ever booed more than he is, not Hogan, Bret Hart, HBK, The Rock, Stone Cold etc.. those guys all had mass appeal, whereas Cena doesn't. Each week on RAW he's got mixed reactions & at PPV's he's got full blown crowd heat. At WM28 he'll have 70 thousand booing him.. the crowd won't be 50/50. It'll be 90/10 lol
I'm not a hater per say, i just think when Cena says 'he's use to it..' you shouldn't be used to it, you should be trying to change it.
No one was ever booed more than he is, not Hogan, Bret Hart, HBK, The Rock, Stone Cold etc.. those guys all had mass appeal, whereas Cena doesn't. Each week on RAW he's got mixed reactions & at PPV's he's got full blown crowd heat. At WM28 he'll have 70 thousand booing him.. the crowd won't be 50/50. It'll be 90/10 lol
I'm not a hater per say, i just think when Cena says 'he's use to it..' you shouldn't be used to it, you should be trying to change it.
And why do you think Cena gets booed so much?
Because fans got spoiled during the Attitude Era and now they're going to boo anyone who isn't "edgy." They didn't have that problem when Hogan, Bret, and Michaels were around. That's no fault of Cena's or WWE's, and there is absolutely nothing they can do to remedy it. But it would be stupid to stop pushing Cena and stop making money so they can have a face who gets cheered more but sells more tickets.
Because fans got spoiled during the Attitude Era and now they're going to boo anyone who isn't "edgy." They didn't have that problem when Hogan, Bret, and Michaels were around. That's no fault of Cena's or WWE's, and there is absolutely nothing they can do to remedy it. But it would be stupid to stop pushing Cena and stop making money so they can have a face who gets cheered more but sells more tickets.
boywithbluehanger
I have to poop.
But many of those yelling fans during the Attitude Era were comprised of teens (like myself) who were only cheering for guys like Hogan and Bret because we were little kids being fed weird muscle-bound characters for faces. The product before the AE was clearly not the same. To go from the harder and more adult themes and innuendo to where the product was before the Atitude Era, is really a regression. It makes it nearly impossible to truly satisfy the fans who toughed out these past 6 or 7 years since it's all been slowly reverted back to the WWF of roughly the 1980s-1996.
Cena is (unfortunately for him) the face of the product move. Even though Vince among others really should shoulder the blame. And outside of my reply to you, I don't think it's fair for anyone to say that people don't have valid reasons to dislike aspects of Cena's character or the product that they choose to watch.
#hamler
That's all folks.
If Cena tries to change it, the whole Cena character is a hypocritical bastard. John Cena made a great point in a promo he cut on CM Punk a while back, he doesn't care about the people who boo him, he cares about the people who cheer him. Hes appealing to the casuals and not the internet smarks which is not a bad thing. I think Cena is much better now then he's ever been.
Cena's bood because people don't like the good guy anymore. Fans are used to the Steve Austin's, Rock's and whatnot who said what they wanted and beat up who they wanted. What's so bad about being the good guy nowadays? This is the same reason why every wrestler are preferred heels by most fans on the internet.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Cena's character is ALREADY a hypocritical bastard. He was "fired" by Wade Barrett and made a lame "emotional" farewell speech. Then the asshole just kept showing up week after week. I don't think he even missed one Raw after he was "fired". CM Punk even pointed this out during a promo on Cena, I think the night after Cena buried Wade Barrett in the match where he dropped like 10 chairs on him.
Also, Dwayne doesn't have to evolve. He is being himself under the name of "The Rock". LMAO, just watch his promo on Cena where he had a little kid dress up like Cena. The kid then blew his nose into a Cena shirt and Rock spit in it. "It's ok Cena, you're just not that talented." "Thank You Cena for finally admitting what we all already know, that you're just not that talented."
Does baby voice "You Can't See Me, Youuu Can't See Meee"
Also, Dwayne doesn't have to evolve. He is being himself under the name of "The Rock". LMAO, just watch his promo on Cena where he had a little kid dress up like Cena. The kid then blew his nose into a Cena shirt and Rock spit in it. "It's ok Cena, you're just not that talented." "Thank You Cena for finally admitting what we all already know, that you're just not that talented."
Does baby voice "You Can't See Me, Youuu Can't See Meee"
#hamler
That's all folks.
How exactly is that hypocritical?
How about his entire gimmick is based on I WILL NOT QUIT, I WILL NOT DIE? Not exactly hypocritical.
The face usually comes out of a lengthy feud as the winner. It's not Cena's fault Wade Barrett couldn't stay over after Cena was done with him.
Irrelevant.
1TheGreatOne1
Dark Match Winner
Because Cena is indeed the hypocrite himself.
He forgets (or chooses to ignore..) he was the guy who took no crap from no one and beat people who got in his way.
WWE portray him as the underdog despite never actually losing (maybe an odd occurrence) but mostly he wins.
His character is a walking hypocrite
He forgets (or chooses to ignore..) he was the guy who took no crap from no one and beat people who got in his way.
WWE portray him as the underdog despite never actually losing (maybe an odd occurrence) but mostly he wins.
His character is a walking hypocrite
#hamler
That's all folks.
How is he an underdog? Who has ever said he's an underdog? For fucks sake you people call him SuperCena; how is that an underdog? Cena is no different from the rest of the faces of the company from the past. I'm still not seeing just how Cena is a hypocrite? Especially when everyone regards him a super. Find me one time where the WWE considered him the underdog of the company?
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Holy Hell that hurt my brain. What in the fuckiest of fucks are you talking about? Do you know what being a hypocrite means? How is his booking in any way an example of hypocrisy? He has been booked the same way that every top face has been booked. Every fucking one of them!
"He took no crap from no one and beat people who got in his way." Wh-- What? Are you referring to the fact that he was a heel and now he's not? In that case then yeah, he's a hypocrite. So is Rock, Austin, Hogan, Flair, Orton, hell, anyone besides Ricky Steamboat. Everyone turns heel/face at some point, to expect consistency between the 2 characters is ignorant.
God damn, man.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
In fact, even though it was scripted, the whole Wade Barrett "firing" Cena incident is what exposes Cena's character as the fraud that it is. In kayfabe, it basically makes Cena more like Hogan's character ( and real life persona) than Cena fans want to admit. Hogan admitted in either 95 or 96 when he turned heel that he did it all for the money and didn't give a shit about the fans.
Cena constantly claims to be a man of honor and that his word means everything. Well that's obviously bullshit. It's also bullshit kayfabe wise that security wouldn't try to stop a "fired" man from jumping over the barricade and attacking an employed WWE superstar. Cena also had his fucking wrestling gear ( if you want to call what he wears wrestling gear, but you get my point) on.
I honestly have no clue how a male above the age of 12, (hell I'll even say a male over the age of 10) could enjoy watching John Cena and actually hope he wins his matches against people who are way more talented than him.
Cena constantly claims to be a man of honor and that his word means everything. Well that's obviously bullshit. It's also bullshit kayfabe wise that security wouldn't try to stop a "fired" man from jumping over the barricade and attacking an employed WWE superstar. Cena also had his fucking wrestling gear ( if you want to call what he wears wrestling gear, but you get my point) on.
I honestly have no clue how a male above the age of 12, (hell I'll even say a male over the age of 10) could enjoy watching John Cena and actually hope he wins his matches against people who are way more talented than him.
DirtyJosé
Best angle of all: retirement
I see a lot of dumb fuckers like you using the word "hypocritical" without seemingly knowing what it means. How is any of the example you've given "hypocritical"? Do you even know what you are saying, or are just repeating words you hear elsewhere without bothering to look it up?
Um, yeah, I'm sure The Rock is totally like that in real life, that that is totally who he is for realz. I mean, why take his own word for it. It's not like he doesn't say so himself in interviews and in his own book that "The Rock" is just a persona created for his WWE career, that while it's part him it's also part fabrication, likely just like Cena's gimmick. I swear, you dipshits really think that wrestling was SOO MUCH MORE REAL back then. The only similar portrayal was that Steve Austin IS a beer swilling wife beater.
Furthermore, again, how is any of your example here a sign of how Rock either doesn't need to evolve or is really what Dwayne Johnson is like? You don't even make any kind of point. I was there, dawg, I totally heard and saw the same promos. And just like many others out there, I ended up feeling like Cena got the better end of that deal. Rock came out using the same old worn out catch phrases, in the same old worn out style, then admitted himself that the only reason he was there to run down Cena was that he was more or less just being a bully. News flash, Rock; kids and women are a BIG part of why anyone knows who you are in the first place.
I get people not liking Cena; that's cool. It's your opinion, yo. I don't like people talking out of their ass, though. And furthermore, I laugh each and every time I see some bitch ass mark on here talking about how Cena "talks all this stuff but he's so fake, man" and how he's "a hypocrite" when it's all based on the bullshit in your head. Cena plays a nice guy with a competitive streak in him on tv. In real life, Cena is a nice guy, as evidenced by his charity work and his usually friendly demeanor. On top of that, he clearly has a competitive streak in him as evidenced by his hard work ethic to climb to and stay at the top of the WWE machine. Haters wanna hate, and that's fine, but stop making up poor excuses and reasons when really it's you, not him.
Oh, look at that; most every bullshit post here negated in one post.
DirtyJosé
Best angle of all: retirement
Once again, do you have any valid point to make? First of all, let's just assume that you are aware that this is hardly the first "fired" angle in which the "fired" party still shows up. Second of all, how does that make Cena a fraud?
Security not stopping a "fired" or otherwise unemployed worker from jumping superstars? Why, holy shit, how does Kevin Nash do it? In fact, this has been happening from way way way before Cena, from Hall on Nitro to ECW invading WWF and many many other times.
Also, didn't Cena tell Wade that he would be coming for him, no matter what? Doesn't that seem to you like a man keeping his word? Didn't Cena say that this is what he lives for and that he'd do anything to be here? Doesn't that also fit into his given word? I swear, you just say anything like a ranting and raving child throwing a hissy fit, and like said child you don't actually say anything worth it's weight in shit.
It's because he's usually against people he's more talented than. I mean, if someone else was better at the game, including working, leading the locker room, putting in the extra hours for the company, staying out of trouble, being a dependable draw and merch seller, and in general just proving to be worth investing in, don't you think they'd be in Cena's spot instead? Just a thought. Also, nice digs at the age and gender thing. I like how on one hand you dismiss any Cena fans as being children, despite your posts all coming off as poorly educated and akin to a child's temper tantrum. And on the other hand, you make a dig at the gender of the fan, as if being "un-masculine" or "feminine" somehow makes one lesser of a fan and a person. Care to explain that a little better? Or are you just going to hide behind Rock quotes again? Stupid fucking child, I swear.
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