**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

Can't speak for everyone, but I don't hate him because of his move set (except for his STF..... so stupid) but rather the way he executes those moves. There are many guys that have are as limited in the ring as Cena but at least most other guys can make the moves they do look good. His suplex has to be the worst looking thing ever, same for his wierd spinning move that sets up his fist drop. While the leg drop off the top rope is a good idea it comes off bad because his opponet has to be in a certain position to pull off the move and because of the nature of the move you know he's never going to miss it.

Also most matches that are considered good for Cena are carried by the other competitor. The match against The Rock is one of the few matches he carried, but because he's so limited he really did nothing in that match that stands out. When I think of that match I think of their entrances and Rock kicking up and catching Cena in the Rock Bottom as Cena was attempting Rock's elbow.

 

[Ringmaster95]

Honestly, John Cena's character needs a total change. He needs to sway from his Super-Cena gimmick, and become a much more edgy kinda guy. After seeing him do that Star Wars promo, it shows that Vince needs to take a risk and change the character. It was hard to watch John do that horrible promo. It was not funny at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Cena hater. I just hate his superman gimmick.

 

[Bernkastel]

Bumping this to bring a debate from another Cena thread to keep it from spiraling off topic.​

Basically, Cena vs Rock at WM28; did Cena's promo's leading up to the match not inspire emotion? Was the WWE universe not on the edge of their seats leading up to the match?

The WWE wanted the fans to become invested in the Rock vs Cena program, and the fans held onto every word that Cena said against the Rock? Cena getting boo'ed in Miami was going to happen; it was unavoidable. Did that douse any interest in the match at all? Hell no. Fans still flocked in droves to give their money away to see Rock vs Cena.

As for reasons why Cena was a success against the Rock, lets rehash...

1.) He's been consistently the most over superstar in the WWE for seven years, a perfect candidate to do a program with the face of the company 10 years ago.

2.) His promos always inspire emotion, whether it be boo's or cheers.

3.) Cena wasn't trying to get fans to hate the Rock; he was trying to get the fans invested by creating tension and animosity, which he did, and it lead to one of the greatest matches in the past 10 years.

How can anyone in their right mind say that Cena's promos against the Rock failed when they did their job perfectly?

 

[Dr. Awesome]

I'm sure we can all agree if anybody is going break the record its going to be Super-Cena and I'm fairly sure we can all agree he doesn't deserve it. I'm a hater so maybe my opinions a bit bias but really we should be agreeing on this one. Hell even HHH, a man who loves the spotlight, Even choose not to break the record. So what I wanna know is this:
What will your reaction be when he breaks the record?
I won't be surprised but I will be pissed off, I wasn't alive for Flair's Title reigns but my dad and granddad talk about these things and they told me how different it was. The only saving grace is that Flair won them when the world title mattered where-as Cena's all mean nothing.

 

[klunderbunker]

It means nothing.

Here's the thing people forget about Flair's record reign: the old record was 8. Flair didn't just break that record. He SHATTERED it, getting twice as many title reigns as Race had. Cena winning the titles doesn't mean as much because titles are a lot easier to get today with the more backed schedule and having additional titles he could win. At some point, every record is broken and Flair's is no exception. It means nothing if Cena breaks it and you shouldn't get annoyed if he does.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

The real question is why does it matter to so many fans if he does?

It's a different era, a different style, a different everything, its like comparing Hogan's title reign to Bruno's, apples and oranges my friend apples and oranges. If Cena doesn't break it Orton will break it, chances are they will both break it. When it happens it doesn't take anything away from Flair and his reigns and you can't possibly expect the WWE to make sure that record never gets broken, someone has to beat it eventually so why not the face of the WWE?

If you think about it Cena is probably the best possible person to break his record, Orton is also a good guy to break it, I just don't see why it matters at all because it shouldn't.

 

[Ace630]

You gotta remember too that some of Flair title reigns where cheap when he would drop the title to get it back straight away again

 

[salopstick]

Let me tell you guys something.

Wrestling titles are fake used to sell a product, the best guy doesn't always have a belt

In today's wrestling because the so called stars can't get over much they need the belt.

Some of the most over stars in history never needed a title

I don't like hogan, but his first reign of over 4 years means a lot more than some of Clair's in a historical sense as he was a huge part of building up the wwf. Kids didn't want him to lose as he was fed one challenger after the next. The NWA title was different.

In today's wwe they need multiple changes to sell ppvs. People wont stand for a long term champion. Even though punk's reign surprises me. But they still have the world title to hot potato

 

[The Hardcore Kid]

What if?

Who cares?

Think about two things here. One, titles are much, much easier to obtain now. We live in an era where it's not remotely uncommon for World title reigns to last less than a month. A staggering NINE of Cena's 12 reigns are shorter than three months, many of them less than one month.

Two, Cena has been on top a LONG time. Austin was on top for ~5 years. Same with Rock and HHH. Cena is basically going on his tenth year of dominance.

Also, let's think about the third thing that we should always factor in with "prestige" arguments like this: this sport is scripted. Flair didn't actually win anything. Neither did Cena. They were given straps of gold because their promoters thought they were the best way to sell tickets. Nothing less, nothing more.

 

[OutsiderDX]

I think it will be a great day!

Who wouldn't want Cena to be the greatest off all time?? He deserves it right?

He has put up so many 5 star matches ! errrr 4 star? Well, nobody has put up so many great 1 and 2 star matches as John Cena!

Plus by far John Cena overshadows Ric Flair in the majesty and tradition. Sure Ric Flair had elborate wrestling robes that cost $10,000 and gleamed like the gods were shining heaven's spotlight on him, as he struted down the aisle, as if he was the only person in the world! Sure Ric flair had the classic tights "RF" embroidered with pride! Designer wresting boots which said, i am a wrestler! But John Cena has jean shorts and sneakers. Checkmate Nature Boy!

17 time world champion John Cena! Earned through years of learning a craft! Years may be a lil over-exaggeration. Let's say, a good 6 months, then never learning a 4th move. But atleast John Cena makes other wrestlers look good through his subltlies. Like never selling any move or injury. Like the complete lack of any logical match pyschology. Like becoming invincible at any point in any match! Ric Flair looked like he went to war in the ring.... bringing fans to the brink of elation and torment with a word, a move, a WOOO. Ric Flair always made his opponents seem credible, as if they would win, as if they were equals! Who wants that???

 

[kor420]

How many World Titles have cena held? How many WWE Championships Has cena held? By my calculation cena hasn't even began to get close to flairs' record and if he's going to beat that record, he better hurry and start capturing the World Heavyweight Title pretty soon.

 

[Rayne]

It will be the end of the world as we know it. Mothers will dash their babies' brains against rocks in the street. Brother will turn upon brother, husband will turn against wife, and all of society shall be rent asunder by chaos and violence.

I'll react by mocking people who think that it means anything.

 

[Fisheatppl]

I think it will be a great day!

Who wouldn't want Cena to be the greatest off all time?? He deserves it right?

He has put up so many 5 star matches ! errrr 4 star? Well, nobody has put up so many great 1 and 2 star matches as John Cena!

Plus by far John Cena overshadows Ric Flair in the majesty and tradition. Sure Ric Flair had elborate wrestling robes that cost $10,000 and gleamed like the gods were shining heaven's spotlight on him, as he struted down the aisle, as if he was the only person in the world! Sure Ric flair had the classic tights "RF" embroidered with pride! Designer wresting boots which said, i am a wrestler! But John Cena has jean shorts and sneakers. Checkmate Nature Boy!

17 time world champion John Cena! Earned through years of learning a craft! Years may be a lil over-exaggeration. Let's say, a good 6 months, then never learning a 4th move. But atleast John Cena makes other wrestlers look good through his subltlies. Like never selling any move or injury. Like the complete lack of any logical match pyschology. Like becoming invincible at any point in any match! Ric Flair looked like he went to war in the ring.... bringing fans to the brink of elation and torment with a word, a move, a WOOO. Ric Flair always made his opponents seem credible, as if they would win, as if they were equals! Who wants that???

With the exception of jean shorts and sneakers, you just described Hulk Hogan. I know we've heard the comparison 1000 times, but come on, that was not a good argument. "Man we can't let this guy who epitomises one of the 2 largest icon's of this industry do anything good!" Get better at not seeming jaded so your arguments have more validity. For instance, you could say something like "Cena is not a very well rounded wrestler, and I prefer people like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan who have a larger arsenal, therefore I don't believe a guy like Cena, who is so polarizing and divides the audience so much, should break Ric Flair's record. It should be someone more universal".

Granted that sounded like crap, but I don't have a problem with Cena breaking the "record" so it was harder to sound legit on the fly. But someone would take my POV more seriously than yours, even though they are both roughly the same.

Honestly in my POV, who cares? First of all, he is FIVE away, thats a lot. Lets say he gets a title a year, that puts him still winning titles in 2017. I don't see that being real. Also, really, who cares? What happens when he reaches 17? Half the "universe" goes "OHHHHHH MAN!" and then the next day they say "Cena has 5 moves of doom!" and forgets he broke a record most people don't even know exists.

Also, as someone else stated, the titles are meaningless, put around the waist of whoever VKM thinks can draw the most money. If in 5 years time he is still that guy, than you're damn right he deserves to break the record. Name me 4 people on THAT level THAT long. Ric Flair, Hogan, and Cena. Rock and Austin were bigger than Cena, sure, but for 5 years, not 15. If he is still drawing and making WWE that money in 2017 then he does deserve all the "titles" given to him.

I don't think that'll happen either, but if it does, what can you do? Will you stop watching? Will you burn it down? Or will you continue to watch just like you do now while Cena dominates? I vote for the last one, I know I will be.

 

[Miz_Mark]

Cena's already a 12 time World Champion. He's also already one of only 6 men in history to hold the WWE title for longer than 1 year. He's also been a major player for a decade and has been the face of the WWE for most of that.

Cena also hasn't gotten near the title in almost a year.

Cena also (despite some BS comments on this thread) has participated in countless 4 and 5 star matches.

Cena also loves the business, and the fans, and dedicates his life to both.

Cena also has been on top for longer than the Rock, longer than Stone Cold.

If Cena hits world title #17 in 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 years, my response will be "Good for him."

Do I personally enjoy John Cena more than Ric Flair? Absolutely not. Do I enjoy him more than several of his contemporaries? Nope. But he is undeniably a massive talent, undeniably a huge star in the business, and undeniably has earned his spot in the annals of professional wrestling history.

Sooner or later someone is going to beat Flair's record. If the man to do it is John Cena, cool. He's a hell of a lot better than many of the alternatives.

 

[kor420]

Cena's already a 12 time World Champion. He's also already one of only 6 men in history to hold the WWE title for longer than 1 year. He's also been a major player for a decade and has been the face of the WWE for most of that.

Cena also hasn't gotten near the title in almost a year.

Cena also (despite some BS comments on this thread) has participated in countless 4 and 5 star matches.

Cena also loves the business, and the fans, and dedicates his life to both.

Cena also has been on top for longer than the Rock, longer than Stone Cold.

If Cena hits world title #17 in 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 years, my response will be "Good for him."

Do I personally enjoy John Cena more than Ric Flair? Absolutely not. Do I enjoy him more than several of his contemporaries? Nope. But he is undeniably a massive talent, undeniably a huge star in the business, and undeniably has earned his spot in the annals of professional wrestling history.

Sooner or later someone is going to beat Flair's record. If the man to do it is John Cena, cool. He's a hell of a lot better than many of the alternatives.

Cena is NOT a 12 time world heavyweight champion. He's a 12 time WWE champion and he has only won 5 world titles in his wrestling career (2 in the wwe). Cena is no where close to ric flairs world championships and he probably will never beat flairs record either unless wwe starts throwing the world title at him like they have with the wwe title.

The WWE Championship and the WWE/WCW WORLD heavyweight Championship titles are two entirely different titles and i don't see why people keep saying the wwe has 2 world championships.. Well they don't, they have the WWE championship and a WWE/WCW World Heavyweight championship. The WWE Championship title isn't even refereed to as a WWE heavyweight championship any more, just WWE championship.

This would be like calling a 16 time U.S champion a 16 time intercontinental champion.

The WWE/WCW world heavyweight championship title has lost so much prestige because the majority of the people don't know the difference between the WWE championship and the WWE/WCW world heavyweight championship.

Cena can win 12 more wwe championships as far as i'm concerned and still he wouldn't have beat flairs record.

 

[The Hardcore Kid]

Cena is NOT a 12 time world heavyweight champion. He's a 12 time WWE champion and he has only won 5 world titles in his wrestling career (2 in the wwe). Cena is no where close to ric flairs world championships and he probably will never beat flairs record either unless wwe starts throwing the world title at him like they have with the wwe title.

The WWE Championship and the WWE/WCW WORLD heavyweight Championship titles are two entirely different titles and i don't see why people keep saying the wwe has 2 world championships.. Well they don't, they have the WWE championship and a WWE/WCW World Heavyweight championship. The WWE Championship title isn't even refereed to as a WWE heavyweight championship any more, just WWE championship.

This would be like calling a 16 time U.S champion a 16 time intercontinental champion.

The WWE/WCW world heavyweight championship title has lost so much prestige because the majority of the people don't know the difference between the WWE championship and the WWE/WCW world heavyweight championship.

Cena can win 12 more wwe championships as far as i'm concerned and still he wouldn't have beat flairs record.

Sorry, you're entirely wrong. The WWE Championship is absolutely a World Championship. In fact, like it or not, it's objectively the most important and longest running world title in wrestling currently (before you jump down my throat, the current WWE WHC is an entirely different title than the NWA/WCW Title. Its lineage started in 2002. The WCW Championship does not exist anymore).

The main title of any promotion is recognized as the World championship of that brand, regardless of whether or not the title of the belt actually contains the word "World".

Under your own logic, Flair is only a 14 time world champion, since two of his 16 reigns were with the WWF Title.

 

[Airklot]

Cena is NOT a 12 time world heavyweight champion. He's a 12 time WWE champion and he has only won 5 world titles in his wrestling career (2 in the wwe). Cena is no where close to ric flairs world championships and he probably will never beat flairs record either unless wwe starts throwing the world title at him like they have with the wwe title.

The WWE Championship and the WWE/WCW WORLD heavyweight Championship titles are two entirely different titles and i don't see why people keep saying the wwe has 2 world championships.. Well they don't, they have the WWE championship and a WWE/WCW World Heavyweight championship. The WWE Championship title isn't even refereed to as a WWE heavyweight championship any more, just WWE championship.

This would be like calling a 16 time U.S champion a 16 time intercontinental champion.

The WWE/WCW world heavyweight championship title has lost so much prestige because the majority of the people don't know the difference between the WWE championship and the WWE/WCW world heavyweight championship.

Cena can win 12 more wwe championships as far as i'm concerned and still he wouldn't have beat flairs record.

Good point on them being separate titles, but since we are nitpicking the wwe championship is considered higher quality then the world championship so wouldn't that mean that cena's title run would have more value?

People are quick to judge how cena's title runs don't mean anything because he loses them and them gains them back real fast, but what people tend to forget is that he had 2 back to back lengthy championship runs 1st one being with the world heavyweight championship for almost a year and then the wwe championship which he held a little bit longer then a year.

And as far as people thinking Ricks flairs legacy would be tarnished if cena broke his record, as far as I am concerned Rick Flair has tarnished is own legacy by retiring and coming back so many times not to mention being in tna.

 

[SomeAreSet]

I'm going to be frank,who cares? Really,who cares? If Cena breaks Flair's record,then so be it. I'm sure when Flair broke the record,people were going "Oh,who is he to break the record? He's certainly not better!" More likely,they were too busy complaining about how he ripped off Buddy Rogers to notice that he broke the World title record.

If Cena,the once in a generation face of the company,breaks the record for most world titles held,then so be it. It's a great achievement for him. Anyone getting their panties in a bunch about who holds the records are just finding something to bitch about. It's like being mad about which Simpson appears in the most episodes. May I just remind everyone that pro wrestling is a F*CKING TV SHOW! Cena is hands down the most popular wrestler today. If he breaks some records,then whoop-dee-freakin'-do. A good number of Hogan's matches followed the same formula,but he's still the most popular wrestler of all time. I was watching old Goldberg matches and he was SO SHIT but the crowd went absolutely nuts for him,even in 2003,post Attitude-era,when fans supposedly "smartened up". Once we realize that what we refer to as "talent" and "ability" has absolutely nothing to do with how popular a wrestler is and how he manages to get over with the crowd,we'd be a lot happier.

Professional wrestling records are absolutely pointless if there is no way to market it.

 

[Workrate]

First of all, I can't believe people are arguing semantically over the term "World Championship." There are independent promotions that call their titles "World Championship," so why on earth would the precise name of the title matter? The WWE title is obviously a World Championship. End of that story.

And second, why should anyone really care? Records are meant to be broken and other than "I HATE HIM HE ONLY HAS 5 MOVES" (remember: as much as you hate Cena, there's a bunch of other fans that hate whoever your favorite guy is, too) there's not really any good reason why John Cena shouldn't be the guy to pass Flair. He's the biggest star of an era, he's popular, so on and so forth. Is he the greatest wrestler of all-time? No. But he's done enough that the mere idea of John Cena getting a 17th championship reign isn't completely calamitous.

We're also talking about completely different eras here. Unless you're an older wrestling fans, most of us here don't even remember the vast majority of Flair's reigns. I know I don't. I was too young and wrestling wasn't nearly popular enough. But today, even if you're not a fan of wrestling, it isn't uncommon to know who the champion is because it's grown so much. Flair wasn't on national television every week, he wasn't on pay-per-views once a month, and he wasn't selling out football stadiums. That's the era Cena has come up in. Similarly, he's come up in an era where championships don't have the same value. They get passed around more and the wrestling universe doesn't always revolve around them. That's the reality, for better or worse. And so, even if Cena does pass Flair, that history will come with it. Fifty years from now, people will note the caveats when comparing eras of wrestlers the same way they do when they compare ballplayers. We don't look at Babe Ruth's home run numbers with any less merit now. We look at them and then at the way times have changed. Perspective changes, but the level of respect and honor that came along with his accomplishments haven't. The same will apply to Flair if Cena, or anyone else, manages to pass him.

 

[Airehk]

Here's the best way I can explain it. The titles change now because of storyline interest. That has already been established.

Look back at how many reigns Austin, Rock or Undertaker have had. We glorify them as the best, but are shocked that they don't even hold a candle to the champions of today.Now these are two different situations of having the title. Flair's reigns were in an era where Austin, Rock and Takers were considered "loose" and easy to acquire. It was NWA events that were held here and there. Not a scheduled show on a weekly and monthly ppv basis. In reality with inflation considered, 10 Cena reigns is equal to about 6 "Attitude" reigns and 4 NWA (Flair) reigns.

Its just how I see it.

 

[LordHumongus]

Cena doesn't deserve to break Flair's record.He's not even in the same league as Flair when it comes to putting on a great match.Yes there's been alot said about Flair playing backstage politics over the years but so has Cena..Flair atleast gave wrestlers the opprotunity to have their runs with the world title.Anyone remember when Ron Garvin beat him?Cena is an attention ****e just like Hogan.I lost alot of respect for Hogan when i heard about the way he kept other performers from getting world title opprotunities.The same can be said for Cena.Wants to be number one even if it is bad for business.Sorry i'm getting off my soap box now.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I don't really understand why this bothers so many people. It's not some sort of mark against Ric Flair if someone, such as Cena, does ultimately win more "officially" recognized World Championships than he does.

Ric Flair's NWA World Heavyweight Championship runs of the 80s sometimes ran into years. All in all, Flair's combined runs of the 80s had a combined total of more than 7 years I think. Even if Cena does ultimately win more World Championships, it's just not going to matter as much.

It won't matter as much because wrestling has changed and so have wrestling fans. The mystique that wrestling had during Flair's day is gone thanks to the internet. Between dirtsheet writers & fans browsing the internet looking for spoilers to upcoming shows or upcoming feuds or matches or who has heat backstage or who is in line for the next title run; it's just not there. The same wonderment we had as kids isn't there.

If it was 1990 today and we had the internet, I believe people would be saying the same things about Flair in comparison to Race as they are about Cena in comparison to Flair. Look at how much hate Ric Flair would get. He'd get criticized for constantly being in the title picture, he'd be criticized for his look, he'd be ridiculed for not being athletic enough or what have you.

Ultimately, it's just nothing to fret over.

 

[kor420]

Good point on them being separate titles, but since we are nitpicking the wwe championship is considered higher quality then the world championship so wouldn't that mean that cena's title run would have more value?

People are quick to judge how cena's title runs don't mean anything because he loses them and them gains them back real fast, but what people tend to forget is that he had 2 back to back lengthy championship runs 1st one being with the world heavyweight championship for almost a year and then the wwe championship which he held a little bit longer then a year.

And as far as people thinking Ricks flairs legacy would be tarnished if cena broke his record, as far as I am concerned Rick Flair has tarnished is own legacy by retiring and coming back so many times not to mention being in tna.

I not discrediting his title reigns. i'm stating a fact according to wwe own website the that cena is a 12 time WWE champion and not a 12 time World Heavy Weight Champion. He's only won 2 WWE world heavyweight titles.

 

[ProudFlairMark]

As probably the biggest Flair fan on these forums, I can say that I would care very little, if any at all. Sure, there's a part of me that wants Ric to be known as the pace setter for World Champions forever and ever, but I also understand that's unrealistic.

Flair was the last of the great, traveling NWA World Heavyweight Champions. His name is etched next to people like Harley Race, Lou Thez, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, Frank Gotch, Dusty Rhodes - the list goes on. Ric Flair has been woven into the fabric that is wrestling's history, shattering all his predecessor's accomplishments and then some. However, the sun has set on his time and has risen on John Cena (did anyone else hear Mufasa talking to Simba all James Earl Jones-y when they read that last sentence? Oh, just me? Moving on...). Make no mistake about, you're absolutely fooling yourself if you don't believe Cena's name doesn't deserve to be mentioned along side the greats. Cena is every bit the professional wrestler as anyone in this business' history. You're delusional if you think otherwise. Mind you, I did say professional wrestler - not judo expert, or greco roman stylist, or what have you. Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, all to the best of my knowledge, do not regularly execute corkscrew plancas, asai moonsaults, or the Canadian Destroyer piledriver (I probably butchered those names, BTW). Yet they're some of the most successful people in this business, commanding respect and, more importantly, top dollar for their services. Ric Flair reportedly got $30,000 per appearance with TNA, and before he left WWE, was making $500,000+ a year. In his prime, Flair claims to have made over $3 million a year during the 80's, adjusting for inflation, his numbers are more than comparable to those of The Rock's and Austin's of their time. Cena reportedly generates hundreds of millions in revenue for WWE. They bring in that much because they're at the pinnacle of their chosen profession in their respective eras. Cena derserves whatever they give him and more, because he draws money. And ultimately, that's what wrestling is all about - drawing money.

 

[vampxx24]

if hhh did not break it cena wont, esp with hhh getting more and more power with how hhh looks up to flair...

but if cena DID break it, to real fans of the sport they know it is nowhere near the same. flairs nwa days were much harder to get the belt as stated many times this was a group of promotors who had to vote on who wore the belt. while one can argue what would of been if david von erich who was being groomed to be the future hw champ were around flair still dominated in the nwa days... today if your the top merch seller your the champ