**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)

[J.J.]

I think some of you are missing a key point. I applaud Cena if he's able to accomplish this feat. He has been the MAN for several years now. There hasn't been any wrestler in the post Austin-era apart from Cena that has been capable of being the top dog this long. But here's why...

Guys like Edge, Randy Orton and of course Cena were able to gain multiple world title reigns in a few short years because who were they competing with apart from the locker room for spotlight? The point is they were the IT factors for the company at the time, they weren't in a position of not being just the man for their company but the man who competes against the rival promotion.

Ric Flair was the face of NWA at one point, not just the best in his territory but arguably the best wrestler from any territory at the time. That's tough considering the talent that were in the territories then such as Dusty Rhodes and Harley Race. Flair was able to be seen on TV traveling to the other territories every week competing against their best talent. He was IT throughout the 80s as NWA champion. His title reigns during the 80s were usually no shorter than a year on average. I'd argue that his first 8 reigns are more important than any of his reigns afterwards.

Champions then were valued. That's part of what Kevin Nash's point was, guys like Flair were larger than life in their day. But at same time unlike today your champion wasnt on your tv set 2-3 times a week. Back then you either saw them when they came to a territory in your area or once a week on tv if you're lucky. Today's show you see CM Punk and John Cena atleast twice a night on the same show. Fans grow tired of it, grow tired of them as champions, thus they lose their IT factor. Then you begin to see multiple title reigns and its tossed around to the flavor of the month then.

CM Punk's title reign has been great because they gave the people CM Punk; "voice of the voiceless" and now the heel - "best in the world". Just so they keep his character fresh - they fail to do that with Cena but that's a whole different subject.

To fully understand half of Ric Flair's reigns as a world champion you have to understand his challenges to be the flavor of an entire decade. I'd argue it was far more challenging than it has been for John Cena.

 

[Slyfox696]

I had to respond to this... First, a better human being ??? Based on what ??

How about the fact Cena doesn't get arrested every time you turn around? That's a start.

Ive personally seen Flair first hand stay three hours after an event just to sign autographs and pose for pictures with fans, when he wasnt getting paid, when the event was over, when other athletes and celebrities had long left. Flair has made plenty of trips to hospitals visiting sick children (Cena does too, the anti Cena crowd never gives him credit for this), Ive read many strories about Flair's willingness to share time with fans in public, recounted by employees in restaurants, his children, even other wrestlers including Steve Austin, who praised Flair in a 2004 interview about his work with The Make A Wish Foundation, stating that Flair cancelled perosnal plans at the last second when Austin called him asked him to meet him at the hospital because the sick patient he was visiting was also a Flair fan. That's class.

That's....great....Cena does all those same things, you even acknowledged as much.

As far as Flair's problems managing his money, that doesnt make him "less" of a human being than the recently divorced John Cena, it means that instead of dedicating his life to entertaining fans all over the world he should have hired a trustworthy accountant and not left his wife in charge of his earnings.

Uhh, what? I'm not certain, but I think you somehow indicated that breaking the law and not doing your duty as a citizen is comparable to a divorce. You'll have to get back to me on that.

As for Flair being champ during a time that WWE was kicking the NWA's butt, where did you live Madison Square Garden ?? All through out the 80s the WWE could not outdraw the NWA and Jim Crockett Promotions in The Carolinas, Georgia, Kentucky, St Louis, and much of Florida.

Wow...5 states out of 50 and one city.

You sure did make me look silly.

Plus the NWA did very well in WWE strong holds like Pittsburgh & Philadelphia, so much so that Vince McMahon started forcing arenas to sign "No Compete" clauses with WWE barring them from hosting any other pro wrestling shows or he wouldnt bring his shows to town. It was the only way to protect WWE from the NWA moving even further into their territory.

So...did these places honor these No Compete clauses? If so, then that just proves the WWE was a better draw than the NWA.

I grew up in Pittsburgh, as much a WWE territory as New York since Bruno Sammartino was from here, and I can tell you NWA cards with Flair in the main event sold out in Oct 1986 (Vs Dusty Rhodes), Feb 1987 (vs Nikita Kolloff, best attendance for a pro wrestling show ever at the Civic Arena, even topped SummerSlam), and non sell outs that drew good crowds in July 1987 (over 13,000) and Sept 1987 (over 11,000). I also attended WWE shows in the early 90s with Randy Savage and Shawn Michaels in the main event that each drew under 7,000.

So you're comparing crowds from 1986 and 1987 to crowds from 1993 and 1994. Yeah, I'm sure that's completely legitimate and honest of you...

Care to try again?

The only time really that WWE was "kicking the NWA's butt" was after it became WCW and Flair was the No 1 draw in pro wrestling, working for Vince McMahon in 1992.

First of all, Flair started working for the WWF in 1991, not '92. Second of all, this statement makes it clear you're not interested in honest discourse, just mindless bias. The WWF kicked the NWA/WCW's butt from the time Hogan became champion until Hogan jumped to the WCW. Any statement otherwise just makes you look ridiculous.

Dave Meltzer has a very interesting article in which he reviews dozens of satistics related to attendance, revenue, etc, and ranks the top draws in wrestling every year from 1980 through to about 2008. Flair was No. 1 in 1983, 1992, & 1995, ranked 2nd (behind Hogan) in 1984-87 and 3 rd in 1988. He was 2nd in 1981 & 1982 also. He was also in the Top 10 in 1996, 1999 (height of the Attitude Era, drawing comparable to everyone in WWE except Austin & Rock), and 2006. That's in all of professional wrestling in the US. Outside of Hogan NO ONE has had that kind of longevity.

First of all, you're quoting from Dave Meltzer. While I don't believe anything Meltzer says, I especially don't believe it when it relates to Ric Flair and I TRULY don't believe it when it can make Flair look good at the expense of Hulk Hogan.

Meltzer is such a biased mark, it amazes me people actually take his opinion seriously. But, since you posted the figures, I can't help but notice how you claimed Flair the #1 draw in the world, and yet, you list 5 years in a row where he was less of a draw than Hogan. You also don't mention '89, '90 or '91, where I will also assume Hogan was the biggest draw.

Even by your own statements, you've completely killed your own argument that Hogan and the WWF wasn't clearly superior to the NWA and Flair in the 80s.

You apparently have never met the man, havent followed his career, and in fact probably know next to nothing about the industry prior to 2002. Ask Shan Michaels and Triple H what Ric Flair means to wrestling, they have both said on multiple occassions that their characters and ring style simply wouldnt exist without him, they based most of what they did on him.

You're right, I know NOTHING about pro wrestling before 2002. That explains everything. It certainly couldn't be that you're an obviously biased Flair fan, contradicting your own arguments and not using an ounce of common sense. No, I'm sure you're right. I'm sure Flair was a HUGE draw in '92, when he worked the middle of the Wrestlemania card and didn't even wrestle on the Summerslam card, and was instead working interference on a match in the middle of the card. Hulk Hogan spent a lot of time working the undercard at the two biggest PPVs of the year when he was the world's top draw, didn't he? In fact, Flair being such a huge draw clearly explains why the WWF worked so hard to keep him under contract.

You do notice my sarcasm, right?

As far as the comment about Flair's reputation being built through magazines and not in front of 4 million fans every week, do you have any idea how big Flair's sements on Nitro were ratings wise in the late 90s ?

So much so he was never put into the spotlight of the show?

That the last time Nitro beat RAW in the ratings Flair was the main event (Sept 98), that with Flair prominently featured on the top of the card Nitro was still topping 5.0 ratings in early 1999 while being in direct competition with RAW.

Nitro rarely topped a 5.0 rating, and when they did, it was usually because Raw wasn't on. But I'm sure you're right, it was Flair's doing that had WCW riding high. It certainly wasn't that guy by the name of Bill Goldberg, who won the title in July. I'm sure he had NOTHING to do with it. It was all Flair.

You just look ridiculous.

Source: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=207532

When was the last time RAW topped even a 4.5.

I'm sure the extra 500 channels which currently exist on cable have nothing to do with that at all, right? Nor the soaring popularity of Internet streaming or digital video recording services, right?

Could you be objective even once in your post?

Have you noticed how much the ratings declined after Flair retired in 2008

Uhh, no? Because it didn't happen?

Ratings for Raw averaged roughly a 3.9 for 2006 and the first half of 2007. After the Benoit murder/suicide, and the steroid scandal a couple months later, ratings tanked to average a 3.3. Which is roughly what they've been ever since.

how big the numbers were for his send off ?

You mean The Road to Wrestlemania? Yeah, I'm sure that was Flair. It's not like ratings increase on the Road to Wrestlemania every year.

Even long past his prime and no longer champion prominently featuring Flair did way more for RAW's ratings than anything they have today.

What's it like to live inside your mind, where everything is distorted from truth to bias?


Cena > Flair. It's that simple.

 

[J.J.]

I am a big Flair fan but having grew up watching wrestling in the 80s, when WWE went national it forced NWA in a situation to start pushing Flair to be on TV every week under the NWA banner. While he was still widely popular there wasn't as much anticipation to see him, so there were less draws at shows. Plus they ended up losing their television slot. Even with many of the territories merging with JCP and going national - Flair's starpower wasn't enough to help JCP from sinking. Because Hogan and the WWE were on top.

 

[Brothervis]

It's not what if question but how long. They are saving it as a big storyline for Cena down the line to break it which is why he hasn't won WWE title in a while. Maybe that will lead to his heel turn as it will be 4 years from now atleast

 

[ECW Sandman]

This is from WWE. COM



WWE.com has learned John Cena had surgery to remove bone chips in his elbow today. A surgery like this will take four to six weeks to recover.

As more information comes available, WWE.com will inform the WWE Universe.






What do you guys think of this news.


Your Thoughts.

 

[pepentorresHHH]

According to WWE.com, john cena just underwent arm surgery to remove some bone chips and his return could be between 4 to 6 weeks.

Conveniently hell in a cell is in 6 weeks, so my questions is will this affect the rumored match between punk at cena in a hell in a cell match??

Discuss....

 

[RavenChaos21]

It is good that he got this looked at and hopefully he will use that time to fully recover instead of working hurt and making this minor injury so much worse.

 

[TheKingofKings20222]

The following is from wrestlezone.com,

WWE.com is reporting John Cena will be out of action for 4-6 weeks.

The story notes that Cena underwent surgery to have bone chips removed removed from his elbow.

Hell In A Cell isn't for another 40 days, therefore Cena will have plenty of time to rest and heal, but do you think Punk may feud with someone else, or keep the feud with Cena going? IMO, I think WWE will continue the Punk/Cena feud, but no doubt, with Cena unable to wrestle, it will take a lot of steam away from the feud. The best thing WWE can do, is put off the feud for the time being, and have punk feud with someone else, maybe Randy Orton? What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Mr Mikey Mike]

According to Wwe.com John Cena will be out 4-6 weeks with bone chips in his elbow. Interesting because Cena suffered a legitimate ankle injury at Night of Champions. Anyways it appeared Cena was slated to face Cm Punk for the wwe title at Hell In A Cell. Now with that match in jeopardy, who would you have face Punk at hell in a cell if Cena can't go? I'd assume the most likely choice would be Randy Orton.

 

[Rising Savior]

Hell in a cell isn't until October 28 so Cena has time to rest up and get healthy but if he can't perform at Hiac, I think Orton would take on Punk at the ppv.

 

[XXJJ]

Orton is about to leave and shoot 12 rounds reloaded. I dont think he will be at HIAC. So if they need a replacement for Cena I think it would be Sheamus.

HIAC is at the end of October so Cena will probably be ready.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

I wish Cena all the best in his recovery for a start. He is a dedicated professional even if he is a poor wrestler.

I think he will still be on TV from Monday with his arm in a sling and taking up airtime that could be used to elevate Ziggler.

WWE could throw a curve ball here - have Punk defend the title at HIAC against someone like (god knows- wwe have so few main event ready stars) -

then have Ziggler interfere - give Ziggler the Rock at Rumble, and let Punk interfere costing the Rock the belt- and have Rock V Punk, and Ziggler v Cena at WM 29.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

Well, he would probably be back for HiaC in 6 weeks so it doesnt matter. He would not wrestle but just cut promos and thats it.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

WWE.com is now saying it should take two to three weeks. IMO he will def fight punk at HIC

If this is true I see no reason for their program not to continue. Maybe one week Cena cuts a promo on the Titantron. Another he comes out to the ring. Never actually wrestles because he's "not cleared." Punk has a referee he can bitch and complain to for at least one week anyways. Even if it does last 4-6 weeks as they say, WWE will make it work. HIAC is far enough away that Cena will work it less than 100% if he has to. Not like he, or many other wrestlers, haven't worked hurt before anyways. They're stuck in the middle of a program right now and suddenly switching gears to someone else wouldn't come off well no matter who it is or how they do it, especially if Cena were to be back so close to HIAC.

I wish Cena all the best in his recovery for a start. He is a dedicated professional even if he is a poor wrestler.

I think he will still be on TV from Monday with his arm in a sling and taking up airtime that could be used to elevate Ziggler.

WWE could throw a curve ball here - have Punk defend the title at HIAC against someone like (god knows- wwe have so few main event ready stars) -

then have Ziggler interfere - give Ziggler the Rock at Rumble, and let Punk interfere costing the Rock the belt- and have Rock V Punk, and Ziggler v Cena at WM 29 where Ziggler wins in a total squash because he's the greatest wrestler in the history of Earth. After he wins, he's crowned King of the World by, well, himself from the future due to time travel in which he invented, because Dolph Ziggler is the only one who's good enough to crown Dolph Ziggler.

I fixed that for you. If you're going to do something, go all the way. MAKE IT A WIN!

 

[Piss Bucket]

I wish Cena all the best in his recovery for a start. He is a dedicated professional even if he is a poor wrestler.

I think he will still be on TV from Monday with his arm in a sling and taking up airtime that could be used to elevate Ziggler.

WWE could throw a curve ball here - have Punk defend the title at HIAC against someone like (god knows- wwe have so few main event ready stars) -

then have Ziggler interfere - give Ziggler the Rock at Rumble, and let Punk interfere costing the Rock the belt- and have Rock V Punk, and Ziggler v Cena at WM 29.

Poor wrestler? WTF are you on abiout? He is 50 times better than any Ryback, Tensai, (insert name of generic hoss who only knows 2 moves but gets pushed to the moon anyway).

I mean seriously, Cena bashing was cool in 2007, 5 years ago people.

 

[MCMG]

I'm sure they can pretend that Cena sustained the injury in an attack by Punk. Just really play up the feud. Even Lesnar injuring him if you want to make a link there.

If Cena is able to compete at HIAC than they should keep the feud going until the match, Cena doesn't need to wrestle until then.

If he can't compete than drop the feud and find a replacement. I'm sure Mysterio would be the choice made by the WWE. There is many others who could maintain a feud with Punk although I wouldn't mind Kofi getting a chance. A kofi/punk HIAC match could be incredible.

 

[Wolf Pac]

If it is 2-3 weeks, Cena will definitely be back by then to face Punk at Hell In A Cell. But if it's 4-6 weeks and assuming Cena can't make it to HIAC then they should definitely have a Champion vs. Champion match between Punk & Sheamus at HIAC. AJ said it needed a proper stage & proper build a few weeks ago, if Cena is out, then this is the opportunity to have that match with a proper stage & build. And as if the Hell in a Cell isn't gruelling enough, against Punk it would make it even more gruelling on Sheamus, which would make a lot of sense for Ziggler to come in & cash in on Sheamus at Hell in a Cell after that match. My only problem with this is that it would be their first match inside Hell in a Cell but this is what happens when WWE doesn't use logic and ends a feud that they've dragged out for 3 months at the PPV before the PPV that contains the match that's supposed to end feuds.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Bone chips? Oof. It's just one of those phrases that makes you cringe a little bit, isn't it? You know, like "vaginal odour" or the like.

Not a massive problem. Apparently Hell in a Cell is absolutely bloody ages away. Cena's responsible for some of the best in-ring action this year - against Rock, against Brock, against Punk, even against Big Show - but there are enough guys floating around to make up the numbers. Cena's promos the last few weeks have been just what I want out of him: fiery, passionate and painfully truthful. He's got a rapport with Punk and he's got a rapport with Heyman - figure out more stuff he can do there.

That's one job jobbed.

 

[Piss Bucket]

If it is 2-3 weeks, Cena will definitely be back by then to face Punk at Hell In A Cell. But if it's 4-6 weeks and assuming Cena can't make it to HIAC then they should definitely have a Champion vs. Champion match between Punk & Sheamus at HIAC. AJ said it needed a proper stage & proper build a few weeks ago, if Cena is out, then this is the opportunity to have that match with a proper stage & build. And as if the Hell in a Cell isn't gruelling enough, against Punk it would make it even more gruelling on Sheamus, which would make a lot of sense for Ziggler to come in & cash in on Sheamus at Hell in a Cell after that match. My only problem with this is that it would be their first match inside Hell in a Cell but this is what happens when WWE doesn't use logic and ends a feud that they've dragged out for 3 months at the PPV before the PPV that contains the match that's supposed to end feuds.

Punk versus Sheamus won't happen, short of unifying the WWE and World titles, which I don't see happening either, and if Punk lost to HHH's boy Sheamus, it would hurt his image, just as Sheamus losing to Punk would hurt his image IMO.

Sheamus does need to lose the belt though, either that or move on to feuding with someone else, possibly Dolph Ziggler (he needs to get rid of "Excuse me!" Vickie Guerrero though IMO) who needs to cash in MITB soon before people stop caring about him holding it.

 

[Ryberg]

Its going to be 4-6 weeks of Cena vignettes, crying kids and weird older make fans holding signs, and Cena via satellite from his living room giving updates.

I wouldn't be shocked if Cole's Lawler interview gets bumped next week for Cena.

Now I will have to use the Diva's and tag team matches for my bathroom break since I wont have them when Cena's on ever hour.

 

[Wolf Pac]

Punk versus Sheamus won't happen, short of unifying the WWE and World titles, which I don't see happening either, and if Punk lost to HHH's boy Sheamus, it would hurt his image, just as Sheamus losing to Punk would hurt his image IMO.

I wasn't suggesting they unify the belts, just for them to have a regular Champion vs. Champion match with no belts on the line, just to see who is the best champion, like the one that was supposed to happen on RAW a few weeks ago. I don't see how a champion beating another champion hurts their image, it's not like it's Funaki beating Punk here.

 

[RicSpade]

Personally I think if Cena is unable to compete its time to let one of these mid-card guys step up and take a main event shot. I mean seriously think about Santino in Elimination Chamber everyone went ape shit on the prospect of him winning regardless of the fact he didn't, so doesn't it make sense if they put an underdog in for the hype? Seriously remember when Jeff Hardy had the infamous ladder match with Undertaker that made him a main eventer? This is what they need to legitimize someone into a coming main event position. Not sure who, has to be someone popular, but believable. Personally I'd like to see a Rey or a Brodus or even a Big Show face turn, but whatever happens you'll all watch

 

[drugfreeford]

I think the best choice for a John Cena replacement is Orton. Punk and Orton have a long history. They never properly ended their feud. A Hell in a Cell match could be the perfect way to end that grueling feud.

Other options are:

Undertaker- Punk and Undertaker once fought in a Hell in a Cell match. This could be their second one where punk kayfabe ends undertaker's career and this will lead to a Wrestlemania match.

Wade Barrett- This could be a good heel vs heel match and feud. Plus, they have unfinished business about the whole Nexus thing.

Daniel Bryan and Kane- This could be a continuation to their feud that happened about 2-4 months ago. Hell in a Cell would be a good way to continue it. It would be a new twist, now that Punk is a villain or anti-hero. The stipulation could be that all the titles are on the line. If CM Punk retains his belt, he also gains the tag team championships and gets to choose his partner.

Kofi Kingston- Time to attempt another main event push. Punk and Kofi are former tag team champions together and that could play a huge role in this feud.

Chris Jericho- A suprise return. Another chapter in their multi-year feud. It would be a good twist too as their now both on different sides of the gate.

There's other credible opponents but some are not big enough threats to Punk, while others wouldn't really make sense, unless the WWE suprise us by bringing John Morrison back next week to let him and CM Punk continue their on and off feud from ECW in 2007 to Elimination Chamber 2011.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

According to a report I read a few minutes ago on wrestlinginc.com, Cena's recovery time is said to be two to three weeks rather than four to six, which I think someone else already stated in a post in this thread. If it's two to three weeks, then I think Cena could possibly be back in action in time for HIAC.

At the same time, however, that's still awfully soon to just jump back into things. HIAC anyway you slice it is going to be a physical match and it might be too soon for safety. It might be best if WWE put the return match off until Survivor Series when Cena will be fully healed and charged, barring any unforseen complications.

As for what to do with Punk for HIAC, I'm not really sure. As has been mentioned, there've been some slight hints at a champ vs. champ match between Punk & Sheamus. We thought we were going to get that match on the Labor Day episode of Raw. AJ said the next week that Punk was right in that such a match did need a grander build. Then, we see Punk & Sheamus in a tag match facing one another last night. Generally speaking, they've been in one another's business quite a bit over the past several weeks.

I think the WWE could have been planning this all along. After all, Cena didn't go up to someone last night and say "Oh yeah, by the way, I'm having elbow surgery to remove bone chips from my arm and I'll be outta action for a while". They've known about this surgery the moment it was scheduled so maybe that's why we've had some interaction between the two world champs as of late.

With Punk pissed at being "screwed" in last night's tag match, he could wind up snapping and "take out" John Cena on Raw this Monday and "injure" the arm that Cena's had treated today. They could set it up in which Cole recieves word through his headset that there's some disturbance backstage and they could send a cameraman running backstage to find Cena lying on the ground out cold of screaming in pain while grasping his arm. Sheamus could show up, as he had Cena's back last night, to chase Punk off and Sheamus could decide to seek some retribution for his friend by taking on Punk at HIAC.

Their HIAC match could get a lot of build, plus it also provides what could be an ideal situation for Dolph Ziggler to cash in his MITB briefcase to take the title from Sheamus. So not only does Sheamus fail to avenge Cena, but he loses his title while in the process of avenging Cena. This could give Cena a little additional motivation for when he returns and goes after Punk for Survivor Series.

The flaw with that idea, however, is that it means there'll be one less HIAC match at the ppv. I suppose the WWE could always substitute another match to replace the WHC HIAC match. It'll be something different to see maybe an IC title or tag title HIAC match.

 

[Notorious718]

Even if Cena is cleared to compete sooner than originally reported, I still think he should sit out the next PPV. I can't imagine that he'll compete in HIAC and not aggravate his injury. And besides, I think that if anyone deserves a vacation it's Cena. In addition, putting off the next match between Cena and Punk should be saved for a bigger stage like Survivor Series which would be the one year mark for Punk's title reign. As for what would happen at HIAC if this were to happen, a champion vs champion match would be nice. It doesn't have to (nor will it likely be) be a title unification match but it was teased to happen at some point back on Labor Day. As mentioned earlier, it could lead to Ziggler cashing in and winning the title.