**MERGED** John Cena & The Rock: Match fallout, etc.*KEEP IT ALL IN HERE!*

The upper hand? C'mon dude, Cena's closing line was "The Rock said I'll be his bitch, but it's gonna be half that 'cause I'm the son of a bitch who will beat him at WM!"That was another idiotic, goofy, corny line that just made him look like a chump as always. The crowd wasn't very hyped at the end, and the jumping into the crowd was lame.

I thought the line was a decent way to conclude an awesome promo. Jumping into the crowd however I thought was very appropriate as Cena clearly had the upper hand throughout that promo. I assume it just aggravated you due to the image of Cena celebrating in a victorious manner.

Although Rock has weakened himself for Cena's sake,

Really? The Rock doing those historical/Boston landmark tour skits were hilarious, I don't think he has toned himself down a bit. That's the Rock being the Rock at his best.

Cena still does not have the upper hand. He's been clowned to death, all he's gotten in at Rock is the midlife crisis jab. But Cena is no spring chicken himself

You think this entire feud and it's outcome is based on who could be a better jester? Cena and Rock spent most of the 2011 portion of the build making funny jokes about each other, something that Cena has now trades in for a more serious approach. Up until last Monday the Rock had taken nothing seriously meanwhile Cena on the Raw after EC cut a promo filled with valid points about the Rock. Rock maybe slightly more comedic but the overall feud doesn't revolve around who "out clowns" the other more.

Don't listen to the Cena marks here who think Cena is winning. Their perception is that of watching a team hit a 3 at the buzzer when they're down by 20. "Damn, they hit a 3 at the end, they pwned the other team!" Cena landed a coupla jabs after getting worked for 9 rounds now, but that's it. He hasn't evened the score.

Did you watch that post-EC Raw promo? Cena destroyed the Rock with everything he said, similar to what Rock did a year ago.

It's easy to say "your insults don't hurt me" when you can't clown the guy back.

So instead of bringing up the fact that Rock promised to "never leave again" and didn't follow up or his blatant wrist writing, both valid points to "clown the Rock" he should just scream "Rocky has a vagina!". It seems that you misinterpret the meaning of "Rise above Hate". Rock can call Cena a transvestite wonder-man all he wants, it's funny but it's not winning it for the Rock.

Cena's no-selling doesn't put him on top. It shows us that he has nothing witty to slam Rock back with, so he sticks to "your words don't hurt me".

Well he kafaybe is telling the truth. Rock spent the last year calling Cena names, Cena has only done the same a few times. Like I said it's all not about "clowning each other out", Cena has brought a better arugement, in fact I don't think the Rock has a real reason to hate Cena but oh well at least we get this awesome feud.

Rock has pretty much already clinched the war of words anyway, Cena will never cut a promo like Rock's Youtube promo during the summer. That was the atom bomb.

See above.
 
It kinda is an outclowning contest. Who could verbally thump the other more.

I don't think Cena's points on Rock were valid. Rock didn't mean he'd be there every week. Cena was just whining.

Simply put, if the contest is who can get more people to laugh at the other guy, then you can't say Rock isn't killin it. I say that Rock has had the upper hand because he's gotten WAY more people to laugh at Cena than cena got to laugh at Rock.

This is wrestling. When characters try to act serious about it, I just laugh. I prefer to see good trash talking if they're not wrestling each other. Cena is a poor trash talker. He earns no points trying to act serious, he just looks like more of a goof.
 
It kinda is an outclowning contest. Who could verbally thump the other more.

That's the difference between Rock fans and Cena fans at this juncture. Rock fans tend to argue that the person with the better insult wins. Cena fans think that people who shout nonsensical gibberish at them sound stupid enough on their own. This feud works as well as it does, because you and I disagree on this point.

I don't think Cena's points on Rock were valid. Rock didn't mean he'd be there every week. Cena was just whining.

It doesn't matter what he meant. He said that he was "never leaving again" in those exact words, and shortly after that, he disappeared for the better part of the year despite having a scheduled main event match for Wrestlemania. You can't blame fans for thinking that maybe he'd shoot a promo once a month (at least via satellite). If I didn't know any better, I'd guess that it's a major heel tactic.

Simply put, if the contest is who can get more people to laugh at the other guy, then you can't say Rock isn't killin it. I say that Rock has had the upper hand because he's gotten WAY more people to laugh at Cena than cena got to laugh at Rock.

No, it's not. If it were, you'd be right, though. The Rock definitely got more people to laugh at Cena on Monday, but from my perspective, it looked like Cena was poking holes all over The Rock's shouting, twitter-fetished facade during this last two weeks. Cena wasn't trying to make people laugh at The Rock for most of the promo. He was voicing the opinions of those of us who don't like the overly-gimmicky character that The Rock has been for most of his career.

This is wrestling. When characters try to act serious about it, I just laugh. I prefer to see good trash talking if they're not wrestling each other. Cena is a poor trash talker. He earns no points trying to act serious, he just looks like more of a goof.

This business changes. Old fans used to laugh at The Rock and Jericho (not in a good way) for standing in the ring and just yelling "funny" insults at each other for 30 minutes every night. Those people would argue that it wasn't wrestling then, and I would argue that wrestling is different now, too.

Look at both of those guys now. Jericho has evolved and become one of the best-portrayed characters in today's product. The Rock hasn't changed a bit, and a good number of fans of today's product are flabbergasted that his promos were ever considered part of "wrestling". You may feel differently about that, but that shouldn't automatically discount the millions of people who want to see something different from you.
 
I don't think cena has the upperhand but hes holding his own very well.

We know Cena isn't up against people as accomplished on the mic as rock week in and week out. But when he is up against someone who is a good on the mic he does bring it. We seen it in the contract negotiation promo with punk and we are seeing it now with rock.

Cena is at his best whens hes being aggressive so there's no point in him trying to make fun of him cause the rock will destroy him cause that's what the rock is the best at.

So my point is don't think anyone has the upperhand i feel the rock did early on the year with his youtube video but in past 2 weeks cena has dragged it back to a middle playing ground again... and fair play to him for doing that. So we will just have to wait and see what happens in the next few weeks to see who or if anyone gets the upperhand... All i can say is i'm excited to see what happens next.
 
IMO, The Rock/Cena feud is sorta refreshing for one simple factor

the two genuinely arent that fond of each other. How long has it been since we have had 2 guys in a program that arent exactly buddy buddy. IMO, it makes for better tv, better promos, and hopefully a better match at WM

Too often we get programs with guys that are friends in the back. Its refreshing to see a feud with 2 that aren't drinking beers together after the show or signing auto's together
 
It doesn't matter what he meant. He said that he was "never leaving again" in those exact words, and shortly after that, he disappeared for the better part of the year despite having a scheduled main event match for Wrestlemania. You can't blame fans for thinking that maybe he'd shoot a promo once a month (at least via satellite). If I didn't know any better, I'd guess that it's a major heel tactic.

The Rock's exact words where "I'm never ever going away". You say he disappeared for better part of the year despite having a scheduled main event match for Mania, but you failed to mention how Rock has been promoting the match while being off the program through social media & other entertainment outlets. Fans are not stupid everyone knows that The Rock has a demanding movie schedule so no one expected him to show up for every Raw, Smackdwon, & PPV. The only wrestling fans that are arguing otherwise are fans of Cena that like defending his beef w/Rock, & those few Rock fans that hasn't gotten over him leaving in the 1st place. The Rock has not given anyone a reason yet to believe that he was lying when he said he was "never ever going away" because he has shown up either it be live or bringing it via satellite when he was schedule to.
 
The Rock's exact words where "I'm never ever going away". You say he disappeared for better part of the year despite having a scheduled main event match for Mania, but you failed to mention how Rock has been promoting the match while being off the program through social media & other entertainment outlets. Fans are not stupid everyone knows that The Rock has a demanding movie schedule so no one expected him to show up for every Raw, Smackdwon, & PPV. The only wrestling fans that are arguing otherwise are fans of Cena that like defending his beef w/Rock, & those few Rock fans that hasn't gotten over him leaving in the 1st place. The Rock has not given anyone a reason yet to believe that he was lying when he said he was "never ever going away" because he has shown up either it be live or bringing it via satellite when he was schedule to.

Yes, Rock did his job by promoting it outside. But Cena questioning Rock's intent is only in terms of Kayfebe (hope i have spelled it right this time :)). In real, both knows how much they mean to fans and WWE. We can't say for sure how they treat each other outside the ring, but both of them are doing a real fine job in sticking to their character.

Fans in general, are not aware of Rock's schedule, and also Cena in his promo is not asking Fans to leave Rock's side. He only got things off his chest, and did a fantastic job in sparking up the feud, didn't he?
 
I been reading a lot of the posts on here regarding this epic feud & I still can't seem to fully understand Cena fan's point of view. I understand posters proudly being apart of Cenation, I understand posters that want & feel like John Cena should win his match at Mania. What I don't understand is how a lot of you can justify Cena's beef w/The Rock w/out admitting to being bias. This whole feud has been all about John Cena having a personal problem w/The Rock leaving the WWE to become a movie star. The Rock doesn't have a personal problem w/Cena, he just doesn't like Cena because Cena insulted & disrespected him for no reason.

From what I know The Rock left WWE on good terms, & I haven't heard him bad mouth the company or talk nasty about his co-workers in the media while being gone. Yet out of the blue John Cena publicly insults, what reason did John have to do such a thing & why are some of the posters on here justifying his actions? Publicly running down the very man that was a huge part of paving the way for you just because you disagree w/his career choices is not respectful. If all John wanted was for The Rock to come back to entertain why didn't he just get in contact w/Rock to tell him that. How is it valid or justified for a man who claims to live by respect, & raising above hate do the opposite when it comes to another man that has already proven them self in that profession.

Why & how can some of you members of this message broad say that The Rock is a bully, & that John's words carry more weight in this feud w/out also admitting to being just a bias Cena fan? The main topic of damn near all John's promos is that Rock is never there, which is a pretty weak argument when you realize the fact that Rock is no longer a full time WWE employee, & he doesn't wish to be a full time employee anymore. The only points that John has made in this feud that carry any weight is his criticism on The Rock's promos being comedic heavy w/catchphrases & the fact that Rock really doesn't have any real problem w/him besides him questioning his love for WWE & its fans. I went back to look at this year long buildup to see If I could get an understanding out of the posters in favor of John, but I just don't see it. When I count everything that has went on in this feud John to me storyline wise has shown signs of being a hypocrite, lair, inferior as an overall sports entertainer, & maybe even envy of all Rock's success. With that being said I don't see how anybody could honestly believe John has had the upper hand this whole entire feud. He surely has gotten The Rock at times proving why his worthy of this match but overall I wouldn't say he had the upper hand.
 
Yes, Rock did his job by promoting it outside. But Cena questioning Rock's intent is only in terms of Kayfebe (hope i have spelled it right this time :)). In real, both knows how much they mean to fans and WWE. We can't say for sure how they treat each other outside the ring, but both of them are doing a real fine job in sticking to their character.

Fans in general, are not aware of Rock's schedule, and also Cena in his promo is not asking Fans to leave Rock's side. He only got things off his chest, and did a fantastic job in sparking up the feud, didn't he?

You spelled it wrong again, but that's okay cause I spell it wrong to sometimes the correct spelling is kayfabe. I to believe that the whole real beef between the two is just fabricated for the sake of telling a good story. I also agree w/u on the fact that there is no way of knowing what there backstage relationship is really like, & I'll say that they both have done real fine w/keeping me excited about there feud, but I can't really agree on them both doing real fine in sticking to their characters.

I have always been under the impression that a great majority of Rock's fans knew what the rundown was as for as his movie career goes, but there is a possibility that they didn't. I believe John is trying to hustle fans over to his side, or at least hustle them into questioning Rock's love for them & WWE. I don't agree w/all John's views toward Rock, but I do agree that his execution of his promos in the 3rd Act has sparked up this feud.
 
It's a matter of time before he get in here and start talking about his education degree LOL. He hates the Attitude Era that much because it was the main reason why his beloved WCW ran out of business. The funny thing is, he even admitted that he never watched the WWF during the 1996-2001 period.

He won't tell you, but clearly, the guy is a bias Cena fan. So stop whining about us being bias.






"Don't argue with fools!"
I don't hate the attitude era, it was entertaining. You're just too stupid to know the difference between me saying that and me saying that it was trash TV and that's how it sold so well. Sorry that I bring up the fact that I'm educated. I'm not trying to do it to sound like an elitist. I have a theory that Cena fans on here are either more educated or older and Rock fans are either younger or uneducated. In other words, Rock fans are less mature mentally. Maybe that makes me an elitist, it's my hypothesis. That's why I asked Hollywood E of his education level because I'm guessing it's lower than the average Cena fan's. Also, before someone spews some babble "more education doesn't make you more mature" no, it's not an absolute. However, generally, yes it does make you more mature. At least in your reasoning skills.

I've watched every single Raw episode there has ever been BTW, and every WWF/E PPV since I think Royal Rumble 1994.

I'm not a bias Cena fan, I own no Cena merchandise. Daniel Bryan is my favorite wrestler. I remember watching him on my "Best of AJ Styles in ROH" VHS (yes, VHS) and during that match I thought "I should have bought this guy's DVD".

I'm not amused with catchphrases and middle school insults, sorry.

The absolute best thing that's been said in this thread is this "That's the difference between Rock fans and Cena fans at this juncture. Rock fans tend to argue that the person with the better insult wins. Cena fans think that people who shout nonsensical gibberish at them sound stupid enough on their own. This feud works as well as it does, because you and I disagree on this point."

Rock fans think "Cena sucks, he's not calling Rock a dickface"
Cena fans think "Rock sucks, all he does is call Cena a dickface"

That's what it boils down to. If you liked the attitude era, you like people calling each other a dickface. If you didn't, you aren't amused by someone calling someone else a dickface.
 
This business changes. Old fans used to laugh at The Rock and Jericho (not in a good way) for standing in the ring and just yelling "funny" insults at each other for 30 minutes every night. Those people would argue that it wasn't wrestling then, and I would argue that wrestling is different now, too.

Look at both of those guys now. Jericho has evolved and become one of the best-portrayed characters in today's product. The Rock hasn't changed a bit, and a good number of fans of today's product are flabbergasted that his promos were ever considered part of "wrestling". You may feel differently about that, but that shouldn't automatically discount the millions of people who want to see something different from you.
Grantedisme is awesome.

In a nutshell I think we can define Rock/Cena fans as two very distinct groups who want something different in pro wrestling.

Rock fans want trash talking, testosterone, and punching.
Cena fans want more than that. They want storytelling but not something overly crude. They also want something with more real-life undertones. At least that's how it seems.

Seems that Cena fans are age 5-13 and then like 25 and up.
Rock fans seem to be 14-24.

Can we at least mostly agree on that?

It's pretty mind blowing to me that you have two groups (or even wrestlers), one who thinks they've won, and the other thinks they're celebrating nothing. The coolest thing is it's works in reverse too.

It's like one group is going "LOOK AT WHAT WE JUST DID" and the other is going "yea.....so....who gives a shit?". And it's happening from both sides.

Rock fans "damn, Cena got called a vigina and he just stood there and took it, what a pussy" Cena fan says "so, Rock looked like a moron".
Cena fans "damn, Cena called out Rock on being gone and being a phoney" Rock fan says "so, Rock is a movie star, Cena is jealous".

There is absolutely NO giving in from either side because of this. Might legitimately be the greatest thing I've ever seen in pro wrestling because of how unique it is.
 
The upper hand? C'mon dude, Cena's closing line was "The Rock said I'll be his bitch, but it's gonna be half that 'cause I'm the son of a bitch who will beat him at WM!"

That was another idiotic, goofy, corny line that just made him look like a chump as always. The crowd wasn't very hyped at the end, and the jumping into the crowd was lame.

Although Rock has weakened himself for Cena's sake, Cena still does not have the upper hand. He's been clowned to death, all he's gotten in at Rock is the midlife crisis jab. But Cena is no spring chicken himself

Don't listen to the Cena marks here who think Cena is winning. Their perception is that of watching a team hit a 3 at the buzzer when they're down by 20. "Damn, they hit a 3 at the end, they pwned the other team!" Cena landed a coupla jabs after getting worked for 9 rounds now, but that's it. He hasn't evened the score.

It's easy to say "your insults don't hurt me" when you can't clown the guy back. Cena's no-selling doesn't put him on top. It shows us that he has nothing witty to slam Rock back with, so he sticks to "your words don't hurt me".

Rock has pretty much already clinched the war of words anyway, Cena will never cut a promo like Rock's Youtube promo during the summer. That was the atom bomb.
that part cracks me up, Cena said that line because Rock said the equally corny, cliche, over-used line of "make you my bitch". Pretty sure one of the basketball players in American History X said that to the fat white guy....when did that movie come out?

Your analogy of "Damn, they hit a 3 at the end, they pwned the other team!" Cena landed a coupla jabs after getting worked for 9 rounds now, but that's it. He hasn't evened the score." is funny too, because to a lot of Cena fans, it'd be like if they weren't even playing basketball. So one team is celebrating 'YEA WE WON BY 17!!!!!" and the other is like "yea....sure....um...we going to play tennis or what?"

love this feud.
 
Originally Posted by TWJC: The Beginning

I don't hate the attitude era, it was entertaining. You're just too stupid to know the difference between me saying that and me saying that it was trash TV and that's how it sold so well. Sorry that I bring up the fact that I'm educated. I'm not trying to do it to sound like an elitist. I have a theory that Cena fans on here are either more educated or older and Rock fans are either younger or uneducated. In other words, Rock fans are less mature mentally. Maybe that makes me an elitist, it's my hypothesis. That's why I asked Hollywood E of his education level because I'm guessing it's lower than the average Cena fan's. Also, before someone spews some babble "more education doesn't make you more mature" no, it's not an absolute. However, generally, yes it does make you more mature. At least in your reasoning skills.

You don't sound elitist you sound like a pretentious douchebag, & your theory on the difference between Rock fans & Cena fans only further convince me of that fact. You asked me about my education level because we had a difference of opinion. Seems like you have a habit of insulting posters intelligence just for having a opposite opinion of yours. Being educated doesn't generally mean that your mature, & it doesn't make you an overall reasonable person on all subjects. Educated people are generally more reasonable thinking wise in the field that there educated in.

I'm not a bias Cena fan, I own no Cena merchandise. Daniel Bryan is my favorite wrestler. I remember watching him on my "Best of AJ Styles in ROH" VHS (yes, VHS) and during that match I thought "I should have bought this guy's DVD".

You may not be an overall bias Cena fan, but you do seem bias towards him
as for as his feud w/The Rock goes.


I'm not amused with catchphrases and middle school insults, sorry.

There's nothing wrong w/u not being a fan of Rock's promo style, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more intelligent then those who do find Rock entertaining.

The absolute best thing that's been said in this thread is this "That's the difference between Rock fans and Cena fans at this juncture. Rock fans tend to argue that the person with the better insult wins. Cena fans think that people who shout nonsensical gibberish at them sound stupid enough on their own. This feud works as well as it does, because you and I disagree on this point."

You know you would have a strong point if it wasn't for the fact that John Cena himself has shouted what can be considered nonsensical gibberish also during this feud.


Rock fans think "Cena sucks, he's not calling Rock a dickface"

No Rock fans think Cena sucks, because he picks & chooses when he wants to entertain at his full potential, & because we can see through that phoney act of his.


Cena fans think "Rock sucks, all he does is call Cena a dickface"

Cena fans think Rock sucks because he has a habit of showing that one the there favorite superstars is pathetic.

That's what it boils down to. If you liked the attitude era, you like people calling each other a dickface. If you didn't, you aren't amused by someone calling someone else a dickface.

Peoples reasons for enjoying The Attitude Era was much more then that.
 
You don't sound elitist you sound like a pretentious douchebag, & your theory on the difference between Rock fans & Cena fans only further convince me of that fact. You asked me about my education level because we had a difference of opinion. Seems like you have a habit of insulting posters intelligence just for having a opposite opinion of yours. Being educated doesn't generally mean that your mature, & it doesn't make you an overall reasonable person on all subjects. Educated people are generally more reasonable thinking wise in the field that there educated in.



You may not be an overall bias Cena fan, but you do seem bias towards him
as for as his feud w/The Rock goes.




There's nothing wrong w/u not being a fan of Rock's promo style, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more intelligent then those who do find Rock entertaining.



You know you would have a strong point if it wasn't for the fact that John Cena himself has shouted what can be considered nonsensical gibberish also during this feud.




No Rock fans think Cena sucks, because he picks & chooses when he wants to entertain at his full potential, & because we can see through that phoney act of his.




Cena fans think Rock sucks because he has a habit of showing that one the there favorite superstars is pathetic.



Peoples reasons for enjoying The Attitude Era was much more then that.
No actually more educated people are better at reasoning in pretty much all fields. I live in a shitty apartment because ATM, I'm poor. Yet some people who also live here have more expensive cars than my girlfriend's parents, both of whom have at least a bachelor's degree. Your brain develops more when you challenge it. It's not like you learn how to think more abstractly as far as say, economics goes and then suddenly forget how to think when you are presented with a different logic problem. College teaches you to see things in a grey area. You obtain better reasoning skills. Better reasoning skills mean you can problem solve better. This makes you more mature because you don't just go "FUCKIN LANDLORD WANTING MY MONEY" you think "man, I shouldn't have bought Call of Duty, should have paid my rent with that instead". You don't think "FUCKIN TERRORIST LIVES NEXT TO ME" you think "the Indian guy living next to me is a cool dude." It's not people with an opposite opinion of me, it's people who disagree with evidence. Plus it's a hypothesis, like I said. An elitist is pretty close to a pretentious douchebag.

No shit I'm "more bias" towards him, I have to pick A side don't I? I don't think "wonder woman lady parts drinking possum piss" or whatever is funny or amusing. Actually I do, but not in the same way as you, I think it makes Rock look like an immature jackass. Cena saying "yea, I dress goofy, who cares, my goofy ass is going to kick yours you phoney movie star" appeals more to me.

No it doesn't make me more intelligent. Just like, when you adjust for age, little kids who cheer Cena aren't any less intelligent than the 20 year old who boos him. However, given my age level and my development as a human being, I find Rock's schtick something that would appeal to people younger than me. That's why I said I believe most Rock fans are probably either 14-24 or under-educated. When you stop going to school, unless you are challenging your brain some other way, it doesn't develop as much, you keep the same "age" as far as mental ability. I'm probably not explaining this very well because I'm a business/economics student and not a psychology student.

When has cena shouted nonsensical jibberish unless it was mocking Rock? Or when he was throwing Rock's own style back in his face?

Cena isn't phoney at all. If he is, he's doing a damn good job. Signing autographs, making appearances, etc, all in 100% good guy form for about 10 years now on and off the camera. I think he is pretty much who his character says he is. You are right though, Rock fans probably THINK that and that's why they boo him. Believe it or not, some people are actually like Cena. Some of the most successful people I know are good hearted, hard working, company people.

See, when you say "this is why Cena fans hate Rock" and then you say something that NOBODY is thinking, that's why I think you are uneducated/dumb/whatever. You have absolutely NO ability to see things from someone else's perspective. Think about this, it's largely been the Cena fans who have pointed out why this feud works and why BOTH sides hate each other. Rock fans are mostly just saying "FUCKIN CENA SUCKS ROCK IS TEH SHITZ".


No they really weren't. Maybe the fans who STILL WATCH now watched for more reasons than that. However, if they didn't watch for the blood, boobs, and beer, then how come when the blood, boobs, and beer left, so did they? Most of the high ratings in the AE weren't because of the wrestling. They weren't wrestling fans. They were trendy trash TV fans. Same people who watch jersey shore now are the same type of people who watched the AE (largely). The numbers were inflated because of the "fair weather" fans. It's not like suddenly, after 20 years of having simulated combat on TV with all time in ring greats like HBK and Bret hart that people SUDDENLY said "man, that was a 5 star match".
 
Originally Posted by TWJC: The Beginning Grantedisme is awesome.

In a nutshell I think we can define Rock/Cena fans as two very distinct groups who want something different in pro wrestling.

Rock fans want trash talking, testosterone, and punching.
Cena fans want more than that. They want storytelling but not something overly crude. They also want something with more real-life undertones. At least that's how it seems.

Seems that Cena fans are age 5-13 and then like 25 and up.
Rock fans seem to be 14-24.

Can we at least mostly agree on that?


Both sides of fans seem to enjoy the same thing as for as the things you listed. Both Rock & Cena have been apart of great storytelling that was fulled w/trash talking, testosterone, punching, & even bleeding. They also have been apart of storytelling that wasn't overly crude. Now as far as the real life undertones go, me I don't have a problem w/it, but I do worry about where does the line get drawn when you try to make wrestling seem too real. Majority of Cena fans fall into the 5-13 age bracket, older fans are the minority. Majority of Rocks fan are 14 on up & his fans younger then 14 are in a minority.


It's pretty mind blowing to me that you have two groups (or even wrestlers), one who thinks they've won, and the other thinks they're celebrating nothing. The coolest thing is it's works in reverse too.

It's like one group is going "LOOK AT WHAT WE JUST DID" and the other is going "yea.....so....who gives a shit?". And it's happening from both sides.

Rock fans "damn, Cena got called a vigina and he just stood there and took it, what a pussy" Cena fan says "so, Rock looked like a moron".
Cena fans "damn, Cena called out Rock on being gone and being a phoney" Rock fan says "so, Rock is a movie star, Cena is jealous".

There is absolutely NO giving in from either side because of this. Might legitimately be the greatest thing I've ever seen in pro wrestling because of how unique it is.

This right here is about the most sense you have made on the subject of this feud.
 
Both sides of fans seem to enjoy the same thing as for as the things you listed. Both Rock & Cena have been apart of great storytelling that was fulled w/trash talking, testosterone, punching, & even bleeding. They also have been apart of storytelling that wasn't overly crude. Now as far as the real life undertones go, me I don't have a problem w/it, but I do worry about where does the line get drawn when you try to make wrestling seem too real. Majority of Cena fans fall into the 5-13 age bracket, older fans are the minority. Majority of Rocks fan are 14 on up & his fans younger then 14 are in a minority.




This right here is about the most sense you have made on the subject of this feud.
Yes, at the core they both want storytelling. However, most of the time Rock was crude. I really honestly can't think of a single Rock feud where he wasn't crude. "Reach down to see if you still have a hulkastroodle"? I think Cena is a lot more subtle in what he does too. A lot of people see the bright colors and the typical babyface comeback and they look past a lot of the little things he does.

I think older Cena fans are a minority, but not on here. I'd venture to say that if you were to line us all up, I bet the Cena fans are older on here. So in the minority fan base (IWC smarks), older Cena fans are the majority out of Cena fans lol. I think the people who were chanting "toothfairy" were probably fans who were around before the attitude era too.

Well what I said in that last paragraph is pretty much what I've been saying for a while now. Cena fans aren't impressed with what Rock is doing and vice-versa because they appeal to two different types of people.
 
Ugh Ring of Honor. Explains this douchebag's attitude.

He is spot on most of the times, though I understand that why you would not like the arrogance with which says it.

I guess by saying this, he intends to tell those know-it-all people that he does understand their viewpoint, he has also seen it all and may not agree with them.

If you had joined this forum around 1-2 years back, you would see people posting their WWE viewing experience (in years) before saying 'Cena Sucks'.
 
I think the people who were chanting "toothfairy" were probably fans who were around before the attitude era too.

I can't speak for anyone else, but not only was I around for the Attitude Era, I was around for a good number of years before that. My wrestling fandom began right around the time Hulk Hogan beat the Iron Sheik for the WWF Title, as soon as Dad hooked up our first non-remote control, dial operated cable box on top of the TV...so, a long time.
 
While a lot of people are arguing about who won the two promo exchanges that we have seen between Rock and Cena in the last two weeks, I just have two words to say for what I feel about these exchanges. Not Fair.

TWJC is right when he says that the fans of one party aren't giving the other an inch, but so aren't the wrestlers themselves. Yes, I get that Cena and Rock are quite different as wrestlers. Rock is a comedian while Cena is the more serious character. But that does not mean that they should completely no sell the other guy's promo.

What Cena has implied throughout this whole promo war is that Rock's promos are immature and this week he even said that Rock is nothing without his catchphrases. Well, this might resonate with some of his fans but John, you aren't really telling us anything earth shattering. Rock's promos, regardless of the amount of substance in them, will continue to get cheered.

In my view, it is Cena who should come down to Rock's level( forgive me for not coming up with a better expression) and talk in his language. Yes, I believe he should try and go insult for insult against Rock because this feud is about John Cena proving once and for all that he is better than Rock. Pointing out the immaturity of Rock's catchphrases isn't going to cut the ice because everyone knows it and most people still enjoy a Rock promo despite that.

The question that some of you must be asking after reading this is, why should Cena change his style? Why shouldn't Rock try and come up with a more "mature" promo? Well, the reason is simple. Rock, due to the simple reason that he came before Cena, is the legendary performer here and Cena is the superstar of today who has to measure up in front of the legend. It is like Rock/Hogan with Rock having taken Hogan's place in the feud. Look at the promo in which Rock challenged Hogan to a match at Mania 18. The guy who cannot go a sentence without uttering a childish insult was actually respectful towards the man. Because that has been the way Hogan has operated. When you talk about beating Hogan you do so by talking by talking about the stuff he was good at and what he stood for. Stuff like honor and passion. When you talk to The Rock, try and counter his insults with some better insults.

In a way this is like the feud between HBK and Hogan. HBK tried to belittle Hogan by saying that he gave the best match of the night every night he wrestled. Again, a statement that revebrated with a lot of his fans but conveniently dodges the more relevant fact that Hogan was a much bigger draw than him. Cena calling out the immaturity of Rock's catchphrases to belittle him is an irrelavant fact just like HBK saying that he gave a match of the night performance every night. The relevant fact is that Rock's catchphrases have worked and still work.

That is why I have high hopes from the segment that will take place next week with Cena rapping because that is where I feel they talk on a level playing field. I also hope that for once Cena speaks first and Rock gets a chance to counter Cena's arguements because it has been the other way so far and a reason why Cena is looking better in these exchanges. So far he has had the opportunity to use Rock's catchphrases against him. Why shouldn't Rock get that chance too?
 
Originally Posted by TWJC: The Beginning No actually more educated people are better at reasoning in pretty much all fields. I live in a shitty apartment because ATM, I'm poor. Yet some people who also live here have more expensive cars than my girlfriend's parents, both of whom have at least a bachelor's degree. Your brain develops more when you challenge it. It's not like you learn how to think more abstractly as far as say, economics goes and then suddenly forget how to think when you are presented with a different logic problem. College teaches you to see things in a grey area. You obtain better reasoning skills. Better reasoning skills mean you can problem solve better. This makes you more mature because you don't just go "FUCKIN LANDLORD WANTING MY MONEY" you think "man, I shouldn't have bought Call of Duty, should have paid my rent with that instead". You don't think "FUCKIN TERRORIST LIVES NEXT TO ME" you think "the Indian guy living next to me is a cool dude." It's not people with an opposite opinion of me, it's people who disagree with evidence. Plus it's a hypothesis, like I said.

:lmao: I understand your point of view & for the most part agree.


An elitist is pretty close to a pretentious douchebag.

Yeah an elitist can be a pretentious douchebag, but not all pretentious douchebags are elitist. After having these last few exchanges w/you I come to realize that you are not a douchebag. You do seem pretentious at times, but you just seem like a passionate wrestling fan that just so happens to be on the side I'm not routing for in one storyline.


No shit I'm "more bias" towards him, I have to pick A side don't I? I don't think "wonder woman lady parts drinking possum piss" or whatever is funny or amusing. Actually I do, but not in the same way as you, I think it makes Rock look like an immature jackass. Cena saying "yea, I dress goofy, who cares, my goofy ass is going to kick yours you phoney movie star" appeals more to me.

I don't think you have to pick a side, but if you are I can see how a person would side w/the wrestler they feel they can connect w/the most. When I'm in friendly competition w/ppl I will talk some shit & I always go the extra mile to be the best at whatever it is I do. That's why my friends gave me the nickname Hollywood E Rock cause I reminded them of The Rock w/all the trash talking I use to do.


No it doesn't make me more intelligent. Just like, when you adjust for age, little kids who cheer Cena aren't any less intelligent than the 20 year old who boos him. However, given my age level and my development as a human being, I find Rock's schtick something that would appeal to people younger than me. That's why I said I believe most Rock fans are probably either 14-24 or under-educated. When you stop going to school, unless you are challenging your brain some other way, it doesn't develop as much, you keep the same "age" as far as mental ability. I'm probably not explaining this very well because I'm a business/economics student and not a psychology student.

No No I understand what you mean, I don't completely agree w/your view point, but I see where your coming from.


When has cena shouted nonsensical jibberish unless it was mocking Rock? Or when he was throwing Rock's own style back in his face?

He said something about "bologna fudge & mustard" in one of his promos. There are other examples, but that is the one that sticks out in my head at the moment.


Cena isn't phoney at all. If he is, he's doing a damn good job. Signing autographs, making appearances, etc, all in 100% good guy form for about 10 years now on and off the camera. I think he is pretty much who his character says he is. You are right though, Rock fans probably THINK that and that's why they boo him. Believe it or not, some people are actually like Cena. Some of the most successful people I know are good hearted, hard working, company people.

The signing autographs, making appearances etc is not what makes me think he is phoney, all that stuff gives me the impression that he is an overall great guy. What makes me think he is a lil phoney is the way he portrays his character in storylines, but that is not 100% his fault because if he is told by his bosses to act a certain way well he has to do it if he wants to still be an employee of the WWE.


See, when you say "this is why Cena fans hate Rock" and then you say something that NOBODY is thinking, that's why I think you are uneducated/dumb/whatever. You have absolutely NO ability to see things from someone else's perspective. Think about this, it's largely been the Cena fans who have pointed out why this feud works and why BOTH sides hate each other. Rock fans are mostly just saying "FUCKIN CENA SUCKS ROCK IS TEH SHITZ".

I was being sarcastic w/that comment I know that there are some Cena fans out there who just not feeling The Rock. He doesn't connect w/them & that's okay cause no one can connect w/everybody. I also know that there are Cena fans out there that don't take to kindly in Rock verbally beating Cena down either, so even though my comment was a little over the top I still stand by it. I think we all can pretty much agree on why the feud works, what we don't seem to agree on is which wrestler has looked the strongest during this feud. Doesn't seem like either side is gonna agree on who is on top of this feud either.


No they really weren't. Maybe the fans who STILL WATCH now watched for more reasons than that. However, if they didn't watch for the blood, boobs, and beer, then how come when the blood, boobs, and beer left, so did they? Most of the high ratings in the AE weren't because of the wrestling. They weren't wrestling fans. They were trendy trash TV fans. Same people who watch jersey shore now are the same type of people who watched the AE (largely). The numbers were inflated because of the "fair weather" fans. It's not like suddenly, after 20 years of having simulated combat on TV with all time in ring greats like HBK and Bret hart that people SUDDENLY said "man, that was a 5 star match".

Well the only thing that left really was the blood, Austin still comes back from time to time w/the beer, all the divas still dress skimpy so the boobs haven't went nowhere. The bra & panties matches are gone, but there couldn't have been that many ppl tuning in just for that silly match. AE had more fans because storylines was more exciting & unpredictable. Also there was more well rounded talent back then that not only knew how to connect w/the audience they was great at making feuds seem epic. A lot of them was more experience w/entertaining the crowd then these current crop of guys. I also believe that some fans just grow out of it, they may not find wrestling as entertaining as they did when they was younger. There are fans that was bias to certain wrestlers so when those wrestlers left they left. My Mom & Pop have both watched wrestling for way longer then I been alive, but they are not interested in the new talent. They enjoy some of the matches, but there not 100% invested because they feel like a lot of the stories that are being told & the wrestlers involved are bland & generic. There are lots people who feel like my mom & pop who are fans, but they are just turn off from the product or just burned out from watching it for so many years.
 
Originally Posted by TWJC: The Beginning Yes, at the core they both want storytelling. However, most of the time Rock was crude. I really honestly can't think of a single Rock feud where he wasn't crude. "Reach down to see if you still have a hulkastroodle"? I think Cena is a lot more subtle in what he does too. A lot of people see the bright colors and the typical babyface comeback and they look past a lot of the little things he does.

Rock has been crude most of the time, but I don't remember him being crude in his feuds w/Goldberg, Evolution, Brock Lesnar, or the last two feuds w/Austin. Now I could be wrong cause it has been a min since I been through my archives of VHS's so I don't remember word for word what he said in all these feuds, I remember him talking trash but I can't remember him being crude. If you can remember refresh my memory.

I think older Cena fans are a minority, but not on here. I'd venture to say that if you were to line us all up, I bet the Cena fans are older on here. So in the minority fan base (IWC smarks), older Cena fans are the majority out of Cena fans lol. I think the people who were chanting "toothfairy" were probably fans who were around before the attitude era too.

There's a possibility that majority of you guys fall into the older age bracket. Those few that where chanting could have been, but there's no way of knowing. I never gave it much thought on what there age was at the time. I had said to myself "damn Cena has hustle some of this crowd over to his side, well isn't that about a bitch". It was a nice turn of events for the feud, fans reaction add more layers to a storyline making feuds more entertaining.
 
I agree with the cena fans here. Wrestling has evolved and people want more realism. That's why people say cena sucks when he throws punches and kicks that just looks fake. Or when he no sells moves and just looks stiff or has some goofy expression on his face. How can this appeal to a sane thinking adult who wants realism? There is no in ring story telling. And there are much better guys than him and are not given the opportunity because Vince wants the face of his company a certain way. As CM punk stated how vince likes them.
 
I agree with the cena fans here. Wrestling has evolved and people want more realism. That's why people say cena sucks when he throws punches and kicks that just looks fake. Or when he no sells moves and just looks stiff or has some goofy expression on his face. How can this appeal to a sane thinking adult who wants realism? There is no in ring story telling. And there are much better guys than him and are not given the opportunity because Vince wants the face of his company a certain way. As CM punk stated how vince likes them.
A quick wristlock exchange is more fake than punches and kicks. Cena's ring psychology is perfect. Like I said earlier, it's easy to see his simple moveset and his classic babyface comeback and think he's a simpleton. He's not. If you pay attention, most of his matches, especially his non TV sprint matches, he pays attention to detail and does the little things. For example, and this is just one that stands out, his match vs Mysterio after Punk left, at first he was coming right at Rey. Rey kicked his legs a bunch of times, pretty soon Cena is dodging the leg kicks like the plague and being more cautious. It shows match progression and gets over Rey as a guy who despite being little, you can't just maul. Cena's ring psychology is infinitely better than most people on here think.

His matches vs Khali were about as good as you can get out of Khali. Cena is great with big men because he does what I call the 3/1 rule. You're against a big guy, you hit him 3 times, he staggers, you hit the ropes, come back, he hits you once and you sell it like you were hit by a truck, it gets over the size difference. He did lots of shit like that.

His matches vs Michaels were awesome, they sort of used a reverse version of the 3/1 with Cena being the big guy. They also got over the idea that Shawn has to string together technical sequences perfectly or else Cena could use his brute strength to get out.

Vs Punk he would at times surprise Punk with his wrestling skill, so Punk would have to go to plan B or C.

Not only that, but crowd psychology isn't just the story being told in the ring. It's also about how you sell, how you execute the moves, etc. For example, notice how damn near every strike the best big men in the business throw goes from a high to low position. This is to emphasize the height difference. Next time you are watching Cena, notice how many times he looks into the crowd when he's selling. Notice how when he's making a comeback, a lot of his strikes are from a low to high position. This makes it look like he's literally fighting from underneath.

It's not that hard to defend Cena's in ring skill. Shit man back in like 2008 Bryan Alvarez said that if you doubt his in ring ability, you put your credibility in question. Harley Race, Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Ric Flair, and RVD have ALL praised his in ring work. It's because they ALL truly understand in ring storytelling and crowd psychology. If I can pick up on Cena's crowd psychology and storytelling with my "101" level of understanding, I can only imagine what these guys with PhDs pick up on.

Hollywood E, yea, the women still dress skimpy, but it's not even close to the level that it was before. You see tennis stars dressed more skimpy than the divas now. There aren't spanking matches or paddle matches or bra and panties matches anymore. austin comes back once in a while to drink beer, but it's for nostalgia and it's not a regular occurrence. The violence has been toned down to protect the wrestlers and to give the product a more family friendly image that sponsors love and that's frankly better in the long run. You don't see tag teams powerbombing women through tables, you don't see unprotected chairshots to the back of the head. You take away the "trash tv" element and you're left with the true pro wrestling fans and not the fair weather trash TV trend followers.
 
All you have to do to realize Cena's not a terrible wrestler is look at his matches early in his career before "SuperCena." Even as prototype if you want to. I've said this before but I'll say it again here. He'll never pass for a Kurt Angle, or a Bret Hart, but he's not as bad as most like to think.
 
While a lot of people are arguing about who won the two promo exchanges that we have seen between Rock and Cena in the last two weeks, I just have two words to say for what I feel about these exchanges. Not Fair.

TWJC is right when he says that the fans of one party aren't giving the other an inch, but so aren't the wrestlers themselves. Yes, I get that Cena and Rock are quite different as wrestlers. Rock is a comedian while Cena is the more serious character. But that does not mean that they should completely no sell the other guy's promo.

What Cena has implied throughout this whole promo war is that Rock's promos are immature and this week he even said that Rock is nothing without his catchphrases. Well, this might resonate with some of his fans but John, you aren't really telling us anything earth shattering. Rock's promos, regardless of the amount of substance in them, will continue to get cheered.

In my view, it is Cena who should come down to Rock's level( forgive me for not coming up with a better expression) and talk in his language. Yes, I believe he should try and go insult for insult against Rock because this feud is about John Cena proving once and for all that he is better than Rock. Pointing out the immaturity of Rock's catchphrases isn't going to cut the ice because everyone knows it and most people still enjoy a Rock promo despite that.

The question that some of you must be asking after reading this is, why should Cena change his style? Why shouldn't Rock try and come up with a more "mature" promo? Well, the reason is simple. Rock, due to the simple reason that he came before Cena, is the legendary performer here and Cena is the superstar of today who has to measure up in front of the legend. It is like Rock/Hogan with Rock having taken Hogan's place in the feud. Look at the promo in which Rock challenged Hogan to a match at Mania 18. The guy who cannot go a sentence without uttering a childish insult was actually respectful towards the man. Because that has been the way Hogan has operated. When you talk about beating Hogan you do so by talking by talking about the stuff he was good at and what he stood for. Stuff like honor and passion. When you talk to The Rock, try and counter his insults with some better insults.

In a way this is like the feud between HBK and Hogan. HBK tried to belittle Hogan by saying that he gave the best match of the night every night he wrestled. Again, a statement that revebrated with a lot of his fans but conveniently dodges the more relevant fact that Hogan was a much bigger draw than him. Cena calling out the immaturity of Rock's catchphrases to belittle him is an irrelavant fact just like HBK saying that he gave a match of the night performance every night. The relevant fact is that Rock's catchphrases have worked and still work.

That is why I have high hopes from the segment that will take place next week with Cena rapping because that is where I feel they talk on a level playing field. I also hope that for once Cena speaks first and Rock gets a chance to counter Cena's arguements because it has been the other way so far and a reason why Cena is looking better in these exchanges. So far he has had the opportunity to use Rock's catchphrases against him. Why shouldn't Rock get that chance too?

This is my favorite post out of anyone who has disagreed with my opinion so far. Seems like a very well thought-out opinion that has taken the time to listen and understand where both Cena fans and Rock fans are coming from.

Before I start, I'd like to let you know that my response probably won't be as long as your post (unless I get absurdly caught up in the moment and start monologuing, in which case I'll apologize for the opposite reason). Let me try to sum up your ideas into a couple of pointers and give my opinion on them. I'll try not to miss anything.

1) Cena shouldn't no-sell The Rock on the mic.

I think it's perfectly in character for this feud for Cena to no-sell The Rock. The way I see it, Cena has taken up the role of representing people like me, who don't really like The Rock's style of promos. If someone came at me like The Rock does at Cena, I'd respond similarly to how Cena has been. I support it, because it personally appeals to me. Now, saying that, I'd also like to point out that I thought Cena was splendid against The Rock early in the promo when he rapped about him. However, I like this turn of events even more.

2) We already know that The Rock's promos are immature; Cena isn't bringing anything new to the table by saying that.

I don't think anyone has ever pointed it out the way Cena is right now. It might be acknowledged between some of the fans, but I'd even point to this thread in showing that there are a fair number of fans who don't see it that way. I'm fairly certain that no one would call it "mature", but some would probably disagree if I called it childish. Basically, I think Cena is, in a sense, bringing something new to the table, since I don't recall anyone else making a point of it at any point in the past on the mic. Yes, people will still like The Rock regardless, and that's totally fine. However, I feel that finally someone in the ring is voicing my opinion.

3) Cena should change his style to match The Rock's out of respect, like The Rock did for Hogan

When Cena challenged The Rock to the match, he was as respectful as The Rock was when he challenged Hogan (I looked up both challenges on youtube to make sure I wasn't being a total jackass). Aside from that, The Rock kayfabe mocked and disrespected Hogan plenty before their match. He stayed with his own character and didn't change for Hogan on the mic, just as Cena is doing for The Rock. One major difference between the two that your argument doesn't mention is that Rock/Hogan wasn't decided too long in advance, so the build didn't have time to become "personal" like it has between The Rock and Cena.

4) Cena has always gotten the last word, and The Rock hasn't had the chance to use Cena's catchphrases back at him.

Two weeks ago, The Rock got the last word against Cena, and it just didn't work out too well. The Rock made fun of Cena's catch phrases earlier in the feud. It just doesn't resonate as much anymore in my opinion, since we rarely hear Cena using them himself. Cena hasn't really relied on his catchphrases for a few years now, since he uses them very sporadically nowadays. I actually think his opponents in feuds have used it more than he has at least in this last year.

I'm looking forward to next week's segment, too. I was always a fan of The Rock's diss songs (although I only remember him doing them as a heel), and Cena's diss raps are always a pleasure. I'd prefer that Cena stick to the same shtick as he has been the last few weeks, since like I mentioned, that speaks more for me than his rapping, but if he's going to go into full-insult mode, this is how I prefer he do it.

So yeah.. Sorry that I dragged this out more than I originally intended. I stand by opinion that you have the most legitimate complaints out of anyone who has posted in this thread negatively about the way Cena has conducted himself in the feud, and as I was writing my response, I felt you would prefer a decent description of why someone might feel otherwise rather than a "omg no, you are just a biased rock lover" response (although I do intend to use that line the next time "I Hate Cena" or maybe "HollywoodRocksomethingsomething" posts something in here).
 

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