**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)

[rockyrocky11]

Does anyone know the last time Cena lost legitimately clean? I know Punk has beaten him twice but once his foot was on the ropes and JL came out the other time. The last time I can really think of a clean loss would be to Batista or Orton.

My question is an anyone remember the last time he has lost clean, and do you think it's a good thing to have him be that invincible. I know there is the whole "Super-Cena" complaints, but I'm wondering if this will also affect the match with the Rock. If he beats the Rock clean (which I think he will), would it make sense for anyone to ever beat him clean again??

 

[Rampage Bentley]

Last time I remember Cena losing clean was to Randy Orton on the "season premier" of Raw two years ago... although that was a table match... I think the last time he was pinned clean was by Batista at Summerslam.

Edit: Actually, I just remembered, Justin Gabriel pinned him clean in a five on five elimination tag match on RAW a few months after Orton beat him

 

[Tyler44]

John Cena's character is the guy who always finds a way to win. He is the dominant WWE star in the company, along with the face of the company.

Nowadays, being the face isn't just establishing yourself in WWE, but also outside everywhere else. He needs to be dominant. Yes his dominance has gone on for way too long (5 years now), and yes he's been shoved down our throat, but the thing to take into consideration is the fact he's not in the title picture and hasn't been for a few months now.

His character is in a developing stage (something the ignorance and unacceptable of some fans will get in the way of way of realizing). He's no longer being shoved down as a babyface, but now is just put out there and the fans choose. His character strives off this. Honestly, it's interesting to see week in and week out.

But back to the original topic, why should he lose? WWE superstars have gone a year without even losing, never mind "losing, but it not being clean". He IS the WWE's biggest star, leading up to a match with the former Face of WWE. Why in the hell should Cena look weak to anybody leading up to this gigantic match?

 

[Defekt]

There are some lists floating around, but it's a bit subjective, depending upon how you define clean.

I suppose his loss to Sheamus at TLC 2009 was clean, but Cena was pretty dominant until he lost his footing and fell through a table. I believe his losses to Nexus in 2010 were also technically clean, but the odds were stacked against him too much to really count them.

Here's a pretty good list I found:

Pinned by - Kurt Angle - June 27, 2002 - RAW
Pinned by - Reverend D-Von - August 29, 2002 - Smackdown
Pinned by - Brock Lesnar - April 27, 2003 - Backlash 2003
Pinned by - The Undertaker - July 27, 2003 - Vengeance 2003
Submitted by - Kurt Angle - February 15, 2004 - No Way Out 2004
Pinned by - Shawn Michaels - April 23, 2007 - RAW
Pinned by - The Great Khali - June 2, 2007 - RAW
Pinned by - Randy Orton - March 30, 2008 - Wrestlemania XXIV
Pinned by - Triple H - June 28, 2008 - Night of Champions 2008
Pinned by - Batista - August 17, 2008 - Summerslam 2008

He's the main guy, and shouldn't lose cleanly too often. Alot of his losses weren't squeaky clean, but just enough to mean something. Like his losses to CM Punk last year.

 

[soulpatrolbroski]

win loss records really dont mean what they used to; but to see him lose cleanly wouldn't harm him that much, he would make him seem human. ROCK used to lose all the time, and it didn't effect his popularity

 

[WWEvsJosh]

Rock lost cleanly all the time? Give a short list please. I can only remember Brock. Also for it to be a big deal it has to be when they are a face not a heel. How many times did Austin loose cleanly as a face? Can someone give atleast 5 matches of each star sense people claim the "lost all the time". So why should Cena loose clean?
To answer the question I think it was a match with HHH on raw

 

[JJ15776]

Re: "Super Cena"

When was the last time CM Punk lost clean? Randy Orton? Hell, Sheamus? What about Triple H? How often did Shawn Michaels lose clean? Undertaker? Brock Lesnar? Kurt Angle? Rock, Austin, Bret Hart, Diesel? Hulk Hogan lost, what, 1 match cleanly in his first decade in the company?

Your top faces should not, and indeed do not, lose cleanly very much. It should be a BIG deal when it happens, and it is with Cena, just like Punk, Orton, etc.

 

[PlayTheGameHHH]

It was Sheamus, well, sort of. John "fell" through the table.

Is there anyone really believable who could legit beat Cena on the roster at the moment though? I don't think so. Cena needs an opponent worthy of getting a clean win, and there really isn't one right now...except Rock but he's not really apart of the roster and I doubt he will win anyway. Just wait until the next Goldberg, Lesnar or Batista comes along...

 

[Ellye]

At least one of his losses against The Nexus in 2010 could be considered "clean". The match stipulation itself was stacked against Cena, though. It was a Lumberjack match if I remember correctly, and Wade got a pin.

 

[Trill Co$by]

Technically, any win in a No-DQ environment is considered a clean win. How can you cheat when there aren't "any rules".

So with that in mind, he lost Clean at Hell in a Cell to Alberto Del Rio. He lost clean AGAIN to CM Punk at SummerSlam. Just saying.

 

[therockiswwf]

He lost (technically) clean to Mr. McMahon in a no DQ handicap match in 2010
Any Elimination Chamber match he has lost should count.
Sheamus beat him in 2009
Randy Orton has had 2 clean wins (WM 24 and the tables match in 2011 or 2010)
The Nexus beat him as well in 2010.

Remember Austin lost cleanly twice in 1999 to Mick Foley and a car.

 

[mral82]

He last Singles loss was to Alberto Del Rio at last years Vengeance on Oct 23rd, 2011
Alberto Del Rio (c) (with Ricardo Rodriguez) defeated John Cena in a Last Man Standing match for the WWE Championship.
While he last Tag loss was to Dolph Ziggler and Jack Swagger on the Jan. 23rd, 2012 Edition of Raw while teaming w/ CM Punk.

Cena shouldn't lose that often as he is the face of the company and looked strongly upon not weakily. Rise Above Hate as Cena reminds me the most of Sting more than Hogan, Luger, Austin. I think we might actually see a period when Cena does a Sting type thing circa 1996-1997.

 

[bigjoe113]

Clean doesn't matter to me as long as you put someone over. That's my problem with Cena. Who has Cena made a bigger star? The Rock lost to a lot of people as a face; Brock Angle HHH Jericho. Rock lost and never looked bad why because he was.....The Rock. People know Rock could beat anybody but sometimes it might not be his night. Honestly YOU HAVE TO LOSE TO LOOK HUMAN AND SHOW VULNERABILITY. If I never believe you'll loose what's gonna to invest me in your matches. Ex: Kane vs Cena That's a major reason why adults can't stand Cena because where's the connection between Cena and the common person. Also Taker and HBK put tons of ppl over and they were the faces and stables of WWE as well.

 

[therockiswwf]

Clean doesn't matter to me as long as you put someone over. That's my problem with Cena. Who has Cena made a bigger star? The Rock lost to a lot of people as a face; Brock Angle HHH Jericho. Rock lost and never looked bad why because he was.....The Rock. People know Rock could beat anybody but sometimes it might not be his night. Honestly YOU HAVE TO LOSE TO LOOK HUMAN AND SHOW VULNERABILITY. If I never believe you'll loose what's gonna to invest me in your matches. Ex: Kane vs Cena That's a major reason why adults can't stand Cena because where's the connection between Cena and the common person. Also Taker and HBK put tons of ppl over and they were the faces and stables of WWE as well.

Difference between Cena and Taker/HBK is that Cena is the top guy. Being the guy is different than being a staple. Cena has put over the following people:
Nexus
Sheamus
The Miz
Punk
Khali (he did lose clean to Khali)
Edge
RVD (kind of)
That was just off the top of my head.
Cena shouldn't be putting a lot of people over yet, he is still young enough to stay a top guy and he has lost to many other people that were already over. Kane/Cena storyline ended as it should have, good overcoming evil (which is what wrestling was/is always about).

Rock lost to Brock on his way out. Rock could lose more often since he was never really the guy. Austin had that spot and only had that spot when Austin was out. Orton is more comparable to Rock and Austin is comparable to Cena. Remember, Austin lost only once clean in 1999 to Foley and that is because Austin was the guy. They are not supposed to lose clean much.

 

[Headman]

Clean doesn't matter to me as long as you put someone over. That's my problem with Cena. Who has Cena made a bigger star? The Rock lost to a lot of people as a face; Brock Angle HHH Jericho. Rock lost and never looked bad why because he was.....The Rock. People know Rock could beat anybody but sometimes it might not be his night. Honestly YOU HAVE TO LOSE TO LOOK HUMAN AND SHOW VULNERABILITY. If I never believe you'll loose what's gonna to invest me in your matches. Ex: Kane vs Cena That's a major reason why adults can't stand Cena because where's the connection between Cena and the common person. Also Taker and HBK put tons of ppl over and they were the faces and stables of WWE as well.

I see more of a connection between Cena and the common person than the Rock and the common person. Not really sure what you meant there. As for losing, Cena lost to the Miz, he lost to Punk, he lost to Sheamus, he lost to Orton. It's not like he doesn't lose to people. As for losing clean? Who cares? Heels are supposed to cheat. If I were running a company the last thing I would want to do is cleanly job my top guy to every midcard loser the internet fans latch on to. You pointed out that the Rock lost to Lesnar and Jericho. I would compare those guys with the guys Cena lost to. It's not like the Rock lost to Val Venis or the Godfather. So, yeah I just don't get the argument.

 

[GameOver]

Compared to some others Cena isn't too bad in that respect, he still loses, it may not be by pinfall very often but he loses none the less, but as others have said he's meant to be Super Cena and it would seem dumb for someone with those super human abilities to be beaten at all and definately not by clean means.

compare - how many times was Ultimate Warrior pinned cleanly? what maybe once by The Undertaker i believe. He did lose once in a while but it was via cheating.

Hogan in his 30+yrs you could count it 2 hands at most. not sure of his WCW run as i watched WWF at the time but i know he was beaten atleast twice there. Goldberg and The Giant.

I'm talking cleanly not via evil twin refs or flame throwers to the face. for instance til the point Hogan lost to the Warrior (6yrs) he'd only lost via pinfall once and that was Earl Hebner's baby brother doing a screw job and during his 9yr tenure b4 going to WCW he only lost a handfull of times period.

 

[DirtyJosé]

Oh boy, another one of this fuckin' threads. More of the same. Shouldn't this just be merged into the giant "Cena" thread? I mean, it really doesn't add anything new. Just Cena haters being Cena haters and trying to back up their opinions with statements designed to convince themselves that they speak in facts.

Cena is forced down our throats? By your reasoning, so was Rock. So was Lesnar. So was Austin. Oh what's that? You liked those guys? Well good for you. Doesn't make you any less wrong, or at least it doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite. They go with who's draws the most; who makes the most money. Even after this year of Punk, that's still Cena.

Cena never loses clean? So what? Shit, most matches never end clean anyway. I don't get this argument. Clean finishes are supposed to be in the big PPV pay-off matches. What's that? You need to see someone lose clean to believe this is "real"? You're a smarky idiot; you troll websites and post on forums, so on some level you're always going to know it's fake.

Cena doesn't make stars? I don't know...seems like losing clean to Punk helped put that over the top.

I get people not liking Cena. I don't get people whining about it. If you don't like, say you don't like him. Quit making excuses which try to paint your opinion as anything but that; an opinion.

 

[bigjoe113]

Difference between Cena and Taker/HBK is that Cena is the top guy. Being the guy is different than being a staple. Cena has put over the following people:
Nexus
Sheamus
The Miz
Punk
Khali (he did lose clean to Khali)
Edge
RVD (kind of)
That was just off the top of my head.
Cena shouldn't be putting a lot of people over yet, he is still young enough to stay a top guy and he has lost to many other people that were already over. Kane/Cena storyline ended as it should have, good overcoming evil (which is what wrestling was/is always about).

Rock lost to Brock on his way out. Rock could lose more often since he was never really the guy. Austin had that spot and only had that spot when Austin was out. Orton is more comparable to Rock and Austin is comparable to Cena. Remember, Austin lost only once clean in 1999 to Foley and that is because Austin was the guy. They are not supposed to lose clean much.

It doesn't matter cuz HBK/Taker are legends so it's a big deal when they put some one over. Shawn and HHH put Cena over at WM validating him as a legit main eventer. Also, Taker putting Brock over in a HIAC. That was such a big deal.
Nexus- So Cena @ Royal Rumble eliminating the whole Nexus helped?
Sheamus- HHH was the one to do that
The Miz- He won't even be a factor @ WM and lost a handicap i quit match
Punk-Got himself over with help of the fans
Khali-Taker lost to him clean his first night.... I rest my case
Edge-Foley was a big factor but Cena did help I totally agree
RVD-Idk I guess

Rock was the top guy in late 99 to 2000 and I believe WWE did their biggest business during that period with Austin gone. By 2001 Rock was just as big as Austin so idk why people keep saying he wasn't the top guy. Your top guy shouldn't loose clean all the time but at-least loose sometimes. Look how bad business has gotten as Cena the lone top guy.

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Actually the only time I can think of John Cena jobbing clean other than to CM Punk (Although that wasn't relatively clean because of the Vince & Johnny Ace involvement) is all the way back in 2009 when Randy Orton beat him in Hell in the Cell for the WWE Championship. There was no interference & he did clean. Everyone keeps bypassing it saying the last time Cena lost clean was to Batista at the 2008 SummerSlam. Either you all don't wanna give credit where credit is do for Orton or some of you all have selective memory.

 

[bigjoe113]

I see more of a connection between Cena and the common person than the Rock and the common person. Not really sure what you meant there. As for losing, Cena lost to the Miz, he lost to Punk, he lost to Sheamus, he lost to Orton. It's not like he doesn't lose to people. As for losing clean? Who cares? Heels are supposed to cheat. If I were running a company the last thing I would want to do is cleanly job my top guy to every midcard loser the internet fans latch on to. You pointed out that the Rock lost to Lesnar and Jericho. I would compare those guys with the guys Cena lost to. It's not like the Rock lost to Val Venis or the Godfather. So, yeah I just don't get the argument.

First do we forget when he pushed The Hurricane and Christian in 03. Um and Jericho, Angle, Brock won their first titles by beating Rock to elevate them. 2nd if that was the case why was Rock able to get men woman and children to cheer him and buy his merchandise than Cena only having a certain demographic. I'll put it to you like this. Idc if Rock is 80 coming down that ramp to cut a promo or wrestle. WHY? Because he will EN-TER-TAIN me and alot of ppl and give us something to remember. Cena does not have that connection with a fan over 12. The connection I'm talking about is everyone wants to grow up and be The Rock and be around him. It's hard to find a grown man that wants to grow up and be John Cena.

 

[bigjoe113]

Compared to some others Cena isn't too bad in that respect, he still loses, it may not be by pinfall very often but he loses none the less, but as others have said he's meant to be Super Cena and it would seem dumb for someone with those super human abilities to be beaten at all and definately not by clean means.

compare - how many times was Ultimate Warrior pinned cleanly? what maybe once by The Undertaker i believe. He did lose once in a while but it was via cheating.

Hogan in his 30+yrs you could count it 2 hands at most. not sure of his WCW run as i watched WWF at the time but i know he was beaten atleast twice there. Goldberg and The Giant.

I'm talking cleanly not via evil twin refs or flame throwers to the face. for instance til the point Hogan lost to the Warrior (6yrs) he'd only lost via pinfall once and that was Earl Hebner's baby brother doing a screw job and during his 9yr tenure b4 going to WCW he only lost a handfull of times period.

You just made my point for me. He seems in-human therefore as an adult I can't buy his character AT ALL. Also, part of this business is making your opponent look good even if your opponent loses. By not looking hurt after taking so much punishment, you completely devalue your opponent.

Also, Warrior only lasted in this business for a cup of coffee so we see where that got him.

Hogan was in a different era all together. Everybody believed he was Superman. And you see what happened when people stop believing he was Superman. He left, went to WCW, and it took almost five years for WWE to be competitive again because hogan only put over warrior and warrior was a flash in the pan. Like I said clean doesn't matter to me it's about making stars after you.

 

[bigjoe113]

Oh boy, another one of this fuckin' threads. More of the same. Shouldn't this just be merged into the giant "Cena" thread? I mean, it really doesn't add anything new. Just Cena haters being Cena haters and trying to back up their opinions with statements designed to convince themselves that they speak in facts.

Cena is forced down our throats? By your reasoning, so was Rock. So was Lesnar. So was Austin. Oh what's that? You liked those guys? Well good for you. Doesn't make you any less wrong, or at least it doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite. They go with who's draws the most; who makes the most money. Even after this year of Punk, that's still Cena.

Cena never loses clean? So what? Shit, most matches never end clean anyway. I don't get this argument. Clean finishes are supposed to be in the big PPV pay-off matches. What's that? You need to see someone lose clean to believe this is "real"? You're a smarky idiot; you troll websites and post on forums, so on some level you're always going to know it's fake.

Cena doesn't make stars? I don't know...seems like losing clean to Punk helped put that over the top.

I get people not liking Cena. I don't get people whining about it. If you don't like, say you don't like him. Quit making excuses which try to paint your opinion as anything but that; an opinion.

That's wonderful that Cena is on top so um how has business done with Cena on top. Not that good huh?...I wonder why. It's not the problem that Cena is shoved down our throats. The problem is, people want to like John Cena but why should we. Its very simple in 98 I would be call a friend like watch this Stone Cold dude you'll never know what crazy thing he'll do next. 2000 I would be like watch this rock dude he's the funniest and most entertaining thing u'll ever see. In '02 yo Brock is bad strong and kickin ass you gotta see this dude. What would I say today??? Oh wow watch this guy that smiles and never cares about anything unless his bromance is in trouble.

I know wrestling is fake but at-least make me feel like what I'm watching is not fake. For example, HBK/TAKER TAKER/HHH @ WM. We fans complain mostly because that's what we do. But also because we want better and want to be satisfied. You can say well don't watch it. I love wrestling I shouldn't have to stop watchin what I love bcuz of one guy. Its called a forum...we voice our opinions.

 

[DirtyJosé]

That's wonderful that Cena is on top so um how has business done with Cena on top. Not that good huh?...I wonder why.

You don't need to wonder; business is about as good as it's been since 2002/2003. Ratings are more or less the same, give or take a few percentage points. That would be placing the decline directly back in the days before Cena. Wrestling in general took a big hit after the shut down of WCW, and took another hit in the fallout of the Benoit murder/suicide. Are you going to argue that someone Cena is to blame for either event? Maybe you should try knowing what the fuck you're talking about.

It's not the problem that Cena is shoved down our throats. The problem is, people want to like John Cena but why should we. Its very simple in 98 I would be call a friend like watch this Stone Cold dude you'll never know what crazy thing he'll do next. 2000 I would be like watch this rock dude he's the funniest and most entertaining thing u'll ever see. In '02 yo Brock is bad strong and kickin ass you gotta see this dude. What would I say today??? Oh wow watch this guy that smiles and never cares about anything unless his bromance is in trouble.

The business has passed you by then, amigo. You look back at Stone Cold, Rock, and Lesnar fondly because of your age. Maybe go with "Cena don't give a fuck what anyone says, he'll still kick your ass.". Oh, I get it though. Everything in the past must be much cooler. Stone Cold giving stunners every night because it's all he could do with a broken neck was always SO UNPREDICTABLE. Rock talking about candy asses and sticking things up said asses was SO ENTERTAINING, even if that was all he could ever do besides lose to HHH for a year and a half straight. Brock was SO HARDCORE because...well...because...he kicked a gimp down some stairs and was really really big?

I know wrestling is fake but at-least make me feel like what I'm watching is not fake. For example, HBK/TAKER TAKER/HHH @ WM. We fans complain mostly because that's what we do. But also because we want better and want to be satisfied. You can say well don't watch it. I love wrestling I shouldn't have to stop watchin what I love bcuz of one guy. Its called a forum...we voice our opinions.

As I said, you're entitled to your opinions champ. But seriously, one guy is ruining EVERYTHING for you? If that's the case, I should probably bring to your attention that this stuff is made for an audience much younger than you are and that there's always going to be a "Cena" type that you won't like. As you said yourself, you fans bitch because it's what you like to do. Is it wrong to always want something a little better? No. Is it pointless to try and act like your opinions are fact? Yes.

Is that your best? You've given nothing else but arguments that were easily proven inaccurate and merely repeated opinions again. Oh, and well you've also proven my initial statement accurate; threads like these are shit which bring nothing new to the table. They pop up every now and then just for whiners to whine.

 

[Little Jimmy 93]

CM Punk mere months ago. As clean as it comes.

 

[DirtyJosé]

It doesn't matter cuz HBK/Taker are legends so it's a big deal when they put some one over.

You really want to talk about HBK in a conversation in which you are bitching about Cena putting no one over? The whiny brat left like a pussy rather than put others over. That his better days after his comeback had a few instances of him putting others over doesn't take away from the fact that HBK was for a very long time a selfish prick the likes of which many of you accuse Cena of being.

Punk-Got himself over with help of the fans

False. The fans who wet their panties with the "shoot" were likely already Punk fans. People who know too much about the industry, the insiders, the ones who get the references that most viewers don't. Punk still wasn't OVER until he did what so many of you claim is never done: he went over Cena clean on PPV. Punk needed a Cena win to pop up to the next level, and Cena happily made him look like a million bucks. To believe otherwise is idiocy.

Rock was the top guy in late 99 to 2000 and I believe WWE did their biggest business during that period with Austin gone. By 2001 Rock was just as big as Austin so idk why people keep saying he wasn't the top guy. Your top guy shouldn't loose clean all the time but at-least loose sometimes. Look how bad business has gotten as Cena the lone top guy.

I never saw Rock lose clean in those days. He lost to HHH and what goonies HHH had around him to protect him. Such hypocrisy; for someone who likes to talk about the old days, you sure have selective memory about it. See my previous post about your accusation that Cena is to blame for WWE problems like ratings (hint: your argument is full of shit). Also, Rock was always a place holder for Austin. WWE did better ratings because WCW was putting out utter shit for tv.

First do we forget when he pushed The Hurricane and Christian in 03. Um and Jericho, Angle, Brock won their first titles by beating Rock to elevate them. 2nd if that was the case why was Rock able to get men woman and children to cheer him and buy his merchandise than Cena only having a certain demographic. I'll put it to you like this. Idc if Rock is 80 coming down that ramp to cut a promo or wrestle. WHY? Because he will EN-TER-TAIN me and alot of ppl and give us something to remember. Cena does not have that connection with a fan over 12. The connection I'm talking about is everyone wants to grow up and be The Rock and be around him. It's hard to find a grown man that wants to grow up and be John Cena.

You are such a nerd. You want to grow up and BE THE ROCK? You want to BE AROUND HIM? LOL!

Also, your theory is shit. It's your perception, but it's not fact. There are plenty of Cena fans who are also adult males. An admin of these boards, for example. Your opinion of Rock is valid, but is nothing more than that; opinion. Personally, I thought Rocky was mediocre shit back in the day, and that hasn't improved in modern times. But I got why he was over. In many ways, I view The Rock in the same way I view Cena.

You just made my point for me. He seems in-human therefore as an adult I can't buy his character AT ALL. Also, part of this business is making your opponent look good even if your opponent loses. By not looking hurt after taking so much punishment, you completely devalue your opponent.

Silly "no-sell" arguments. Take that shit back to Hulkamania and suck an egg while you're there.

Hogan was in a different era all together. Everybody believed he was Superman. And you see what happened when people stop believing he was Superman. He left, went to WCW, and it took almost five years for WWE to be competitive again because hogan only put over warrior and warrior was a flash in the pan. Like I said clean doesn't matter to me it's about making stars after you.

Your perception of history here is flawed at best. It's quite clear at this point that you really have no idea what you're talking about. It was years AFTER Hulk hit WCW that WCW was able to knock WWE off the top spot. And if we're talking about making stars after you, again, didn't Cena just help make Punk?