**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)

[The Champ]

I know the thread is about Cena. The point I'm trying to make is that he's not the only person who does it, yet he's the only person who gets criticized for it. I'm going to guess that you wouldn't have said anything about Punk doing it had I not brought it up. Rock and Austin also acted fine plenty of nights after grueling matches. Again, it's a case of things that are common in wrestling that get pinpointed on Cena for whatever reason.

 

[King of Kings Rated Rko E]

Few reasons why I really really hate John Fucking Cena.

1. He CANNOT wrestle. He has six moves at most. Shoulder block, backwards powerbomb thingy, top rope thingy, 5 knuckle shuffle, and the AA.

2. Shoved down our throats like a fucking monkey. This guy is in every fucking main event when there are much more deserving wrestlers out there like Cm Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, and John Morrison!!!

3. Horrible gimmick. Never give up, hustle, loyalty, respect, never back down from a challenge? What the fuck? This sounds like something a fucking 1st grade teacher would say!

4. Bad mic skills. I can tell exactly what he is going to say.
Makes fun of someone... tries to be funny... tells jokes... calls the person out... DONE!

5. All his matches are predictable. Gets beat up, does his 5 moves of fucking doom, back and forth counters for about 30 seconds, and he either does the AA, STF, or his opponent cheats to win.

6. His only fans are girls and little children. Hear the "Let's go Cena! Cena sucks!" chants? The lets go Cena chants are high pitched voices and the Cena sucks chants are from teens and adult males.

7. He is only a draw to little kids and women. You hear the boos? Yes, they are a reaction, but are they the right one? Do they make people want to see him get beat the shit out of? Or do they make people not want to watch? The heat John Cena gets, is not I want this guy to get destroyed heat. It is, "GET THE FUCK OUT" heat. Kind of like X-Pac heat.. we hate him because he is stale, boring, can't wrestle, and has bad mic skills.. not because we want to see him get destroyed. So.. John Cena heat = X-Pac heat.. which obviously isn't good and is ruining ratings.

8. Beats up like 5 people at a time. How is that believable???

9. Oversells every little fucking punch. One light punch = knocked down for a minute? REALLY?

Let somebody like John Morrison, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, or Cm Punk carry the WWE. PLEASE!

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY JOHN CENA IS THE FACE OF THE COMPANY WHEN THERE ARE BETTER AND MORE DESERVING PEOPLE THAN HIM!!! REMEMBER CHRISTIAN??? BOOKED LIKE SHIT AND STILL GETS A GOOD REACTION??? CM PUNK? THE GOD OF PROMOS? DANIEL BRYAN? THE BEST IN-RING PERFORMER OF ALL TIME? JOHN MORRISON? THE BEST SPOT MONKEY EVER? DOLPH ZIGGLER? THE TOTAL PACKAGE WITH THE LOOK, MIC SKILLS, IN-RING SKILLS, CHARISMA, AND DRAWING POWER? LETS SEE JOHN CENA KAY? MIC SKILLS - BAD, GIMMICK - BAD, IN-RING SKILLS - BAD, CHARISMA- IT'S ABOVE AVERAGE, I ADMIT THAT, BUT CM PUNK HAS MORE. I REMEMBER SEEING A THREAD ABOUT WHO IS THE TOTAL PACKAGE AND I WAS ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING WHEN I SAW THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS FORUM, SLYFOX, SAY THAT JOHN CENA WAS THE TOTAL PACKAGE...5 MOVES, HORRIBLE JOKES, BORING PROMOS, AND AN AWFUL GIMMICK MAKES YOU THE TOTAL PACKAGE??? REALLY???

 

[PunkNation26]

Rated RKO E, no matter how much logic you use here, you are still going to get shit on by the Cena sympathizers. I however don't agree with the 5 moves of doom argument. Cena is a shitty wrestler no doubt, but he does use more than 5 moves. The problem is that he doesn't know how to work a competitive match like Punk and Del Rio do. Cena is all about getting beat down, making a come back with his "5 moves of doom", then the AA will get reversed and he will get beat down again for a while. Then he will reverse his opponents finisher and lock on the stupid STF.


He just can't or won't work a competitive match and hit a finisher out of no where to pull off the win. That's a big reason why people hate him. You KNOW 100 percent what is going to happen in his matches. I also agree with your assessment of him getting XPAC HEAT. That is definitly not a good thing. The problem is that Vince McMahon is the most stubborn human being on the face of the earth. The only way Cena wasn't getting pushed to the moon was if a sniper killed Cena. So regardless of how the fans reacted, Cena was destined to become the 3rd of 4th most untalented Champion of all time. To boot he will be a 30 time Champion within 6 years.

 

[#hamler]

Few reasons why I really really hate John Fucking Cena.

No need for that.

1. He CANNOT wrestle. He has six moves at most. Shoulder block, backwards powerbomb thingy, top rope thingy, 5 knuckle shuffle, and the AA.

I thought it was five. Anyways, many times have I proved this to be absolute bullshit when determining a good wrestler. Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, considered by man to be th industry's greatest, used a very limited moveset. The amount of moves you perform do not matter.

2. Shoved down our throats like a fucking monkey. This guy is in every fucking main event when there are much more deserving wrestlers out there like Cm Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, and John Morrison!!!

Are monkies really shoved down our throats? Also, why wouldn't you push your top star? Why wouldn't you push someone who's been loyal or someone who has great attitude doing his work?

3. Horrible gimmick. Never give up, hustle, loyalty, respect, never back down from a challenge? What the fuck? This sounds like something a fucking 1st grade teacher would say!

Since when is it bad to be a good guy?

4. Bad mic skills. I can tell exactly what he is going to say.
Makes fun of someone... tries to be funny... tells jokes... calls the person out... DONE!

As if anyone else is different. Punk comes out, bitches, leaves. Cena has great mic and talking ability.

5. All his matches are predictable. Gets beat up, does his 5 moves of fucking doom, back and forth counters for about 30 seconds, and he either does the AA, STF, or his opponent cheats to win.

Can you honestly point out 5 big John Cena matches that were the same?

6. His only fans are girls and little children. Hear the "Let's go Cena! Cena sucks!" chants? The lets go Cena chants are high pitched voices and the Cena sucks chants are from teens and adult males.

Well...I'm a fan. I'm 18.

7. He is only a draw to little kids and women. You hear the boos? Yes, they are a reaction, but are they the right one? Do they make people want to see him get beat the shit out of? Or do they make people not want to watch? The heat John Cena gets, is not I want this guy to get destroyed heat. It is, "GET THE FUCK OUT" heat. Kind of like X-Pac heat.. we hate him because he is stale, boring, can't wrestle, and has bad mic skills.. not because we want to see him get destroyed. So.. John Cena heat = X-Pac heat.. which obviously isn't good and is ruining ratings.

He gets a bad reaction because morons think its not ok to cheer the good guy that Cena represents. Cena appeals to the casuals not the morons who think they're real wrestling fans when in reality, it's the casuals that matter.

8. Beats up like 5 people at a time. How is that believable???

Chuck Norris did it in movies. Just like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Just like Sylvester Stallone. Yet they've made trillions doing it.

9. Oversells every little fucking punch. One light punch = knocked down for a minute? REALLY?

Youtube? I don't recall seeing this.

Let somebody like John Morrison, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, or Cm Punk carry the WWE. PLEASE!

Its funny. I bet all of these guys would kill to get the slightest rub from someone like Cena.

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY JOHN CENA IS THE FACE OF THE COMPANY WHEN THERE ARE BETTER AND MORE DESERVING PEOPLE THAN HIM!!! REMEMBER CHRISTIAN???

Christian appeals to who exactly?

BOOKED LIKE SHIT AND STILL GETS A GOOD REACTION???

If you call that a good reaction you might as well call Cena's a good reaction.

CM PUNK? THE GOD OF PROMOS?

Punk is getting a push.

DANIEL BRYAN? THE BEST IN-RING PERFORMER OF ALL TIME?

Get over yourself.

JOHN MORRISON? THE BEST SPOT MONKEY EVER?

The guy who anytime he builds momentum, fucks it up?

DOLPH ZIGGLER? THE TOTAL PACKAGE WITH THE LOOK, MIC SKILLS, IN-RING SKILLS, CHARISMA, AND DRAWING POWER?

Dolph ois on his way up the card. However, he isn't anywhere near Cena's level.

LETS SEE JOHN CENA KAY? MIC SKILLS - BAD, GIMMICK - BAD, IN-RING SKILLS - BAD, CHARISMA- IT'S ABOVE AVERAGE, I ADMIT THAT, BUT CM PUNK HAS MORE. I REMEMBER SEEING A THREAD ABOUT WHO IS THE TOTAL PACKAGE AND I WAS ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING WHEN I SAW THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS FORUM, SLYFOX, SAY THAT JOHN CENA WAS THE TOTAL PACKAGE...5 MOVES, HORRIBLE JOKES, BORING PROMOS, AND AN AWFUL GIMMICK MAKES YOU THE TOTAL PACKAGE??? REALLY???

Slyfox is smart as fuck. If he posts something, its true. I'd listen to him.

 

[Slyfox696]

This will be like shooting fish in a barrel.

1. He CANNOT wrestle. He has six moves at most. Shoulder block, backwards powerbomb thingy, top rope thingy, 5 knuckle shuffle, and the AA.

I always love when the ignorants use moves to try and determine quality of wrestling.

Apparently storytelling, selling, psychology, connecting with the crowd, etc. mean nothing anymore. I'll tell you what, why don't you go find a wrestling training DVD and watch that. They'll do a bunch of moves on there, and in your opinion, will be the greatest wrestlers ever. Nevermind the fact their training partner will stand right back up, and it's hard to have a match like that, but if that is what suits your fancy, then go for it.

Those of us who actually know about wrestling will continue to watch great wrestlers like John Cena.

2. Shoved down our throats like a fucking monkey. This guy is in every fucking main event when there are much more deserving wrestlers out there like Cm Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, and John Morrison!!!

When people quit paying money to watch John Cena, he'll quit being in the main-event.

Don't blame Cena, don't blame the WWE, blame the millions of people who spend millions of dollars to watch him. When Punk, Bryan, Ziggler and Morrison can make the kind of money Cena does, they'll be in the main-event too.

3. Horrible gimmick. Never give up, hustle, loyalty, respect, never back down from a challenge? What the fuck? This sounds like something a fucking 1st grade teacher would say!

Like Hamler said:

"Since when is it bad to be a good guy? "

Amazing how people criticize someone who tries to do the right thing, and will defend to the death a guy who beats his wife in an alcoholic rage.

4. Bad mic skills. I can tell exactly what he is going to say.
Makes fun of someone... tries to be funny... tells jokes... calls the person out... DONE!

You're too funny. Here, I'll play this game too. Give me a wrestler, and I'll provide a generic response of what they'll say. Nevermind determining how well they say it, or how interesting they make it, I'll just give you an overview.

Punk: "Things need to change in the WWE. I'm tired of being held back. Piss, piss, moan, moan."

Ziggler: "I'm great. Vickie's my manager. I hate Swagger".

Morrison: "I'm all about park...wait, everyone fell asleep already?"

See, I can play this game too.

5. All his matches are predictable. Gets beat up, does his 5 moves of fucking doom, back and forth counters for about 30 seconds, and he either does the AA, STF, or his opponent cheats to win.

Yup, that's exactly like his last four PPV matches.

Wait, no it's not. Not at all actually. Tell me, do you ever even WATCH John Cena matches, or are you just a mindless robot who repeats the things other morons say?

6. His only fans are girls and little children. Hear the "Let's go Cena! Cena sucks!" chants? The lets go Cena chants are high pitched voices and the Cena sucks chants are from teens and adult males.

So he has two groups of people that cheer him and only one group of people that boo him (males 16-24) and that's considered a bad thing? I can just as easily say "The only people who boo him are 16-24 males".

So, unless you're going to try and tell me that one set of wrestling fan is better than another, you look like an idiot right now. And if you DO try to tell me one set of wrestling fan is better than another, you'll look like a BIG idiot right now.

Oh, and I'm a 27 year old man, who has forgotten more about wrestling than you could possibly know. My wrestling knowledge is superior in every way to yours, and I like John Cena.

7. He is only a draw to little kids and women. You hear the boos? Yes, they are a reaction, but are they the right one?

What does reaction have to do with drawing? Ric Flair is considered to be the NWA's biggest draw in the 80s, and he did it by getting booed.

I don't think you have any idea what being a draw means.

8. Beats up like 5 people at a time. How is that believable???

How is your statement accurate? When has he ever done that on a regular basis?

9. Oversells every little fucking punch. One light punch = knocked down for a minute? REALLY?

Now you're just being completely ridiculous.

Have you ever watched the UFC, or any kind of MMA? Did you see the Mayweather vs. Ortiz fight? One punch can knock a person out for a long time.

Wow, you know nothing about wrestling.

Let somebody like John Morrison, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, or Cm Punk carry the WWE. PLEASE!

I love how you're trying to claim Cena is a bad wrestler, and then mention guys like Ziggler and Morrison.

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY JOHN CENA IS THE FACE OF THE COMPANY WHEN THERE ARE BETTER AND MORE DESERVING PEOPLE THAN HIM!!!

Name one who makes more money than Cena. THAT'S how you can tell who is more deserving.

REMEMBER CHRISTIAN??? BOOKED LIKE SHIT AND STILL GETS A GOOD REACTION???

How do you even begin to argue with someone as delusional as you?

DANIEL BRYAN? THE BEST IN-RING PERFORMER OF ALL TIME?

Wow, I think this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on here, and that takes talent. Even ascribing to your wrongful and idiotic notion of what makes a good wrestler, in what world is Daniel Bryan better than a guy like Bret Hart? Or Ric Flair? Or Lou Thesz? Or Bob Backlund? Or Kurt Angle? Or...you get the point.

Do yourself a favor. Read less posts from the idiots in the IWC, and read more from the knowledgeable ones in the IWC. I'll let you tag along with me if you want. You could learn an awful lot.

I REMEMBER SEEING A THREAD ABOUT WHO IS THE TOTAL PACKAGE AND I WAS ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING WHEN I SAW THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS FORUM, SLYFOX, SAY THAT JOHN CENA WAS THE TOTAL PACKAGE...5 MOVES, HORRIBLE JOKES, BORING PROMOS, AND AN AWFUL GIMMICK MAKES YOU THE TOTAL PACKAGE??? REALLY???

Let's evaluate:

1. You know nothing about wrestling.

2. You think having good offensive moves determines how good of a wrestler you are, despite how completely illogical that is (for reasons I've already explained).

3. You think being a man who stands up for doing the right thing is horrible, which says a lot about what kind of a lowlife person you must be.

4. You have no idea of what it means to be good on the mic, and you think Dolph Ziggler and John Morrison are good in-ring workers.

5. You think Daniel Bryan is a better in-ring worker than HBK, Hart, Flair, Thesz, Savage, Backlund, etc.

6. You think that appealing to a large demographic is a bad thing, and prove it by pointing to two different groups Cena appeals to, and compare that to the one group Cena doesn't. Apparently, in your opinion, one is better than two, which shows you flunked kindergarten mathematics.

7. You're a liar, which is evident by your statement that Cena beats up 5 people by himself, when last summer's Nexus angle clearly proved that statement a lie.

8. You think getting punched in the face doesn't hurt, despite years of MMA and boxing proving you wrong.

9. You think Cena gets a bad reaction, but Christian gets a great one.

10. I know enough about wrestling to point out the first 9 of these statements.

So whose opinion on wrestling quality is more trustworthy? I'm going to say mine.

Rated RKO E, no matter how much logic you use here, you are still going to get shit on by the Cena sympathizers.

Perhaps, but he should at least TRY to use logic. He was just being a mindless sheep. You would know something about that, wouldn't you?

The problem is that he doesn't know how to work a competitive match like Punk and Del Rio do.

Name the last match Del Rio had that comes close to doing what Cena did with Punk. Before Cena, name the last match Punk had that was of high quality.

I can name you numerous great Cena matches, which have told all sorts of different stories, in all sorts of different ways. Cena > Punk/Del Rio and it's not even close.

The problem is that Vince McMahon is the most stubborn human being on the face of the earth.

No no no. This is where you fail YOUR logic test.

Vince McMahon isn't stubborn, Vince McMahon is smart. When you see your company is making its greatest profits since the Attitude Era, only a dumb person would change what's working. It must be nice for you, who doesn't have any skin in the game, to play armchair wrestling booker, but for the guys who make a living based on the show, they're going to put the guy who makes the most money in the main-event. And until that's no longer Cena, Cena is going to main-event.

So regardless of how the fans reacted

Who cares how they react, as long as they pay money to get into the show?

That's what people like you don't understand. Wrestling is about one thing, and one thing only; money. If you make it, you're great. If you don't, you're not. It's really that simple.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Rated RKO E, no matter how much logic you use here, you are still going to get shit on by the Cena sympathizers. I however don't agree with the 5 moves of doom argument. Cena is a shitty wrestler no doubt, but he does use more than 5 moves. The problem is that he doesn't know how to work a competitive match like Punk and Del Rio do. Cena is all about getting beat down, making a come back with his "5 moves of doom", then the AA will get reversed and he will get beat down again for a while. Then he will reverse his opponents finisher and lock on the stupid STF.


He just can't or won't work a competitive match and hit a finisher out of no where to pull off the win. That's a big reason why people hate him. You KNOW 100 percent what is going to happen in his matches. I also agree with your assessment of him getting XPAC HEAT. That is definitly not a good thing. The problem is that Vince McMahon is the most stubborn human being on the face of the earth. The only way Cena wasn't getting pushed to the moon was if a sniper killed Cena. So regardless of how the fans reacted, Cena was destined to become the 3rd of 4th most untalented Champion of all time. To boot he will be a 30 time Champion within 6 years.

Let's use another favorite on these forums as an example and the person I'm talking about is Shawn Michaels.

The opponent has the upper hand on HBK then all of a sudden, Hickenbottom uses the flying forearm and nips up or whatever you call it. When the opposition is groggy, Shawn goes for the atomic drop and some punches usually follow. Wait, is there a scoop slam in there? Yep, and we watch in awe as he goes to the top rope and hits his patented (I said that) flying elbow. Then, Shawn regains his strength and his passion and stomps the mat which means some Sweet Chin Music. Alas, he doesn't hit it the first time and the opponent is on offense. All of a sudden....

[YOUTUBE]ITQOtqvh-So[/YOUTUBE]

And your winner, The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels.

Not my best description to accurately depict how Cena is not the only wrestler in the world who is predictable but I feel it serves the intended purpose.

 

[The Champ]

Hamler and Sly already owned that guy better than I ever could, but I want to elaborate on the sheer stupidity of wanting to throw Morrison or Ziggler arbitrarily into the top spot. See, this is how wrestling works. Midcarders work in the midcard. For them to be in the main event, they have to really break through and prove that they deserve to be at that level. For anyone to possibly have hope of taking over for John Cena, they have to prove that they can draw better than he can. You and people who like to argue these points have it all backwards. You don't throw any old guy into the top spot and hope he sticks as a draw. You wait for him to draw, and THEN you put him in the top spot. As of right now, not one single active wrestler in the company has proven that he can draw like John Cena. Until one does, Cena is going to keep his spot. And that's exactly the way it should be.

 

[The Harlem Heat]

Now I could destroy about 90% of things you said in that post, but I'm feeling nice. Here's a few things which are ridiculous.

When people quit paying money to watch John Cena, he'll quit being in the main-event.

Are the ticket sales as good as they were 10 years ago? No. Ratings? No. PPV buys? No. Were they when Punk was advertised as MITB or the Rock at WM? Yes. See any correlation there?

You're too funny. Here, I'll play this game too. Give me a wrestler, and I'll provide a generic response of what they'll say. Nevermind determining how well they say it, or how interesting they make it, I'll just give you an overview.

You have the wrong idea of what makes someone good on the mic. You do know their lines are mostly scripted, and made good by smart improv yes? CM Punk, Ziggler, Triple H, The Rock are all tremendous on the mic because of their voice, their charisma and ability to improvise. Every Cena promo in his monotonous voice I get the impression he is just reading it straight from a script. Nothing gets me gripped; there is nothing that ever shocks me about his promos. I find a Cena promo about as entertaining as a womens wrestler promo, reason for this? They are always the same...now that is usually a very good thing The Rock's were constantly the same but they worked. Same with Austins. Cenas promos don't 'work' for me. I stopped watching wrestling for a bit from 2007 to 2011 he hasn't changed one bit since then.

Have you ever watched the UFC, or any kind of MMA? Did you see the Mayweather vs. Ortiz fight? One punch can knock a person out for a long time.

The first guy who you were quoting got this very, VERY wrong. Cena can't sell. Every time he gets pinned anyone can tell whether he is down or is going to kick out, every beatdown he gets you know he is fine, you know the 5 moves are coming in a few minutes. As I stated a few pages ago. Cena got beat down with a lead pipe 24 hours before the Raw show. He then proceeded to do his usual entrance of sprinting the the ring totally unscathed. In the ring he was fine. Now wrestling is fake and the lead pipe blows wouldn't have actually hurt, but he has the responsibility of selling these weapons and getting beat down otherwise they will lose all credibility.

I love how you're trying to claim Cena is a bad wrestler, and then mention guys like Ziggler and Morrison.

Morrison, fair enough. Good spots, good at parkour entertaining to watch but a poor wrestler. On a par with Cena. Ziggler on the other hand is one of the top 5 in WWE at the moment. Well executed moves that flow and create pace, which Cena is incapable of doing. Ziggler, like Punk, Bryan (Who you later ridicule for no reason) and Del Rio use wrestling moves to win a match, whether they be slams, submissions or strikes they use them. Cena uses the same repertoire of poorly executed moves. Why can't he use his 'super hero strength' once in a while to do a powerbomb or something devastating like that? He is undoubtedly is great shape (steroids or not it is unproven) so why can't he use that in his in ring routine, instead of lifting heavy people for his finisher? In my opinion near enough half of what makes someone a great wrestler is the ability to sell a move which I touched on earlier. Ziggler's selling of moves is unrivaled currently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTD8Mas2m5c

Name one who makes more money than Cena. THAT'S how you can tell who is more deserving.

Punk-http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/242982-exclusive-cena-no-longer-the-1-wwe-merch-seller-new-1

The Rock-http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2011/0912/544257/the-rock/


If others were given a legitimate face push they would quite easily surpass Cena in selling merch and tickets. In the UK anyway I can't speak for the US; I get the impression from this forum and many of your political stances many US citizens are highly, HIGHLY delusional.

Now go for it slyfox, quote one wrong thing I've said, write an essay about it to make you feel better and negative rep me or whatever gets you off. Go ahead, everything I've just said is my educated opinion and just because you are a 26 year old moderator of a wrestling forum does not make your opinion correct.

 

[RedStar]

I find it amusing how you guys act like the WWE will disappear over night if one particular wrestler misses a main event or pay per view. If you like the WWE as a whole, you will continue watching. If you can honestly say you'd stop watching WWE just because Cena left or was not featured endlessly in the main event (or any one superstar), you are exaggerating or are of questionable sanity.

It's also cute that you guys worry about the profits of the company and whether the guys eat or not. I know I usually worry about these things when I watch football or tv shows. Oh dear, viewership is down; are the actors on this show I like to watch going to lose pay?

Also, while I find nothing inherently wrong with having faces on the show, there IS a problem with being the "good guy" who "does what's right". It's not interesting. The point of the show is to be entertaining and to tell a story. Most stories that aren't complete shit don't feature a main character that always does what is right 100% of the time and rarely ever fails in his or her endeavors. No, that would be more akin to the dreaded "Mary Sue", if anyone is familiar with that term.

 

[Slyfox696]

Now I could destroy about 90% of things you said in that post, but I'm feeling nice. Here's a few things which are ridiculous.

Oh, THIS should be fun.

Are the ticket sales as good as they were 10 years ago? No. Ratings? No. PPV buys? No.

Who the fuck cares about 10 years ago? Is Cena being in the main-event forcing Rock or Austin to toil in the midcard? Of course not, so what the fuck does 10 years ago have to do with anything?

Were they when Punk was advertised as MITB or the Rock at WM? Yes. See any correlation there?

Good point, if your statement had even a hint of truth behind it. MITB didn't even do 200,000 buys, according to the last reports. In comparison, Vengeance in 2002 (the last PPV before Summerslam) did 370,000+ buys. Raw ratings were no where NEAR as close to what they were in 2002. You're either an idiot, or don't know what you're talking about.

So, to answer your question, no, I see no correlation because you don't know what you're talking about.

You have the wrong idea of what makes someone good on the mic. You do know their lines are mostly scripted, and made good by smart improv yes? CM Punk, Ziggler, Triple H, The Rock are all tremendous on the mic because of their voice, their charisma and ability to improvise. Every Cena promo in his monotonous voice I get the impression he is just reading it straight from a script.

You have to be joking right. Ziggler? He's fucking horrible on the mic.

You have the wrong idea of what makes someone good on the mic. Being good on the mic is being able to put over the angle. For example, when John Cena was "fired" last year after Barrett didn't win the title, the promo he cut was so heartfelt and moving most people in the Live Discussion thought it was real, at least to the point Cena would be taking time off. When Cena was cutting his promos on the Rock, he completely outdid the Rock, because we knew he was meaning what he said. His promo on Punk, right before Summerslam, in which he told Punk all the pressure was on Punk to prove himself, was magnificent.

Promo cutting is about getting over the angle. Not about doing silly voices, not about cracking jokes, it's about how well you get across what it is you want to work the fans into believing. And John Cena does that as well as anyone.

The first guy who you were quoting got this very, VERY wrong. Cena can't sell.

You obviously have no idea what it means to sell then. Cena is an EXCELLENT seller, and does a great job telling his stories through his selling.

Every time he gets pinned anyone can tell whether he is down or is going to kick out

Which is different from who? I can tell that with EVERY wrestler, by the way they position themselves. Power wrestlers will usually place their hands under the pinning wrestlers chest to "power out". Other wrestlers will usually have a foot propped on the mat to explode and get their shoulder up.

I can tell that about everyone. You're being a moron.

every beatdown he gets you know he is fine, you know the 5 moves are coming in a few minutes.

Which makes him different in what way from every other WWE face main-eventer? And what does that have to do with selling? Your understanding of pro wrestling may be WORSE than those guys before you, because you're clearly an example of "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing".

As I stated a few pages ago. Cena got beat down with a lead pipe 24 hours before the Raw show. He then proceeded to do his usual entrance of sprinting the the ring totally unscathed.

It was 24 hours before the show! Are you really serious?

Morrison, fair enough. Good spots, good at parkour entertaining to watch but a poor wrestler.

Terrible is the word I would use.

Ziggler on the other hand is one of the top 5 in WWE at the moment.

I'm sorry, I had to quit after reading this. I think you say something later about pointing out all your mistakes, of which there are plenty, but this just takes the cake. Ziggler is a fucking fool in the ring. He gets lost half the time, his storytelling mediocre, his psychology worse. If he didn't look like Mr. Perfect, the IWC wouldn't give a flying fuck about him.

Does he have potential? Sure, I'll say that. But Ziggler needs his hand held in order to work a match. Go watch his match at Capitol Punishment with Kofi Kingston. If I had been Kingston I would have knocked his ass out after the match for being so shitastically inept. In that match, Ziggler botches relentlessly, does stupid things constantly, misses his marks several times...it's a wonder Kofi didn't just storm out of the ring then.

The fact you think Ziggler is a top 5 wrestler tells me all I need to know about how limited your understanding of wrestling is. If you think you made a decent point after this part, let me know and I'll address it. But I don't have time to continuously point out how stupid someone is, when they think Ziggler is a Top 5 worker.

It's also cute that you guys worry about the profits of the company and whether the guys eat or not. I know I usually worry about these things when I watch football or tv shows. Oh dear, viewership is down; are the actors on this show I like to watch going to lose pay?

We talk about profits because that determines the quality of a wrestler. As I said before, the best workers make the most money. It's been said time and again by everyone who has ever been successful in the business. Hell, Trips said it on Raw a month ago.

 

[[cL]]

To be fair, blame the WWE for booking it not the man. My John Cena complaint of the day is his failure to sell his beatdown last night by sprinting to the ring absolutely unscathed tonight.

Edit: Not only did he poorly sell his beatdown by sprinting to the ring. In the ring he is doing his jumping soldier barge like there is no tomorrow. Pretty sure the 6 or 7 lead pipe strikes would've hurt him at least a little bit.

Totally agree. but for that matter neither did CM Punk. As much as I loathe Cena, neither one of the guys involved in the beatdown from HIAC did much to sell any injury from the night before.

 

[The Harlem Heat]

Oh, THIS should be fun.

Who the fuck cares about 10 years ago? Is Cena being in the main-event forcing Rock or Austin to toil in the midcard? Of course not, so what the fuck does 10 years ago have to do with anything?

You said yourself the main face sells tickets...Well why are there half empty arenas every monday and tuesday night?

Good point, if your statement had even a hint of truth behind it. MITB didn't even do 200,000 buys, according to the last reports. In comparison, Vengeance in 2002 (the last PPV before Summerslam) did 370,000+ buys. Raw ratings were no where NEAR as close to what they were in 2002. You're either an idiot, or don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks for reinforcing my point, almost double the buys in 2002 when Cena wasn't the main face. MITB is incomparable because it was free everywhere apart from the US, whereas Vengenece wasn't.

So, to answer your question, no, I see no correlation because you don't know what you're talking about.

Well, that makes you an idiot. Have ratings and buys gone up since Punk's push? Definitively yes.



You have to be joking right. Ziggler? He's fucking horrible on the mic.

You have the wrong idea of what makes someone good on the mic. Being good on the mic is being able to put over the angle. For example, when John Cena was "fired" last year after Barrett didn't win the title, the promo he cut was so heartfelt and moving most people in the Live Discussion thought it was real, at least to the point Cena would be taking time off. When Cena was cutting his promos on the Rock, he completely outdid the Rock, because we knew he was meaning what he said. His promo on Punk, right before Summerslam, in which he told Punk all the pressure was on Punk to prove himself, was magnificent.

[/quote]
Would a midcard heel be allowed the spot of giving a 'heartfelt' promo? No. Cena outdid the Rock? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAg2b2T4Wlo ...Now watch that and tell me...Really? REALLY? The crowd certainly didn't think so.

Promo cutting is about getting over the angle. Not about doing silly voices, not about cracking jokes, it's about how well you get across what it is you want to work the fans into believing. And John Cena does that as well as anyone.

You may be right, probably not, but you may be. I usually zone out of the first five minutes of a Cena promo because his voice is just so fucking boring. Punk's promos last month felt 'real' Cena saying "The champ is here" "I will get that title back on sunday" is not 'real'.

Why is it Jack Swagger is terrible on the mic, he could tell a story perfectly...but he's got a terrible lisp. So that point is void...next...

You obviously have no idea what it means to sell then. Cena is an EXCELLENT seller, and does a great job telling his stories through his selling.

Which is different from who? I can tell that with EVERY wrestler, by the way they position themselves. Power wrestlers will usually place their hands under the pinning wrestlers chest to "power out". Other wrestlers will usually have a foot propped on the mat to explode and get their shoulder up.

I can tell that about everyone. You're being a moron.

We may have to agree to disagree here because a wrestler can either sell...or they can't. He never tells a story. It is the same thing every time, he gets beat down and explodes with the 5 moves, fails an FU, reverses another finisher with the STFU then it either ends or the cycle restarts. When he's getting blows from someone big like Batista or even Barrett. He doesn't look like he's hurt, he just looks like he is poorly acting.

And my point is he is lying on the floor, eyes WIDE open looking at the ref waiting for the 2 then pushes his arm up. Very poor.

It was 24 hours before the show! Are you really serious?

Yes, his inability to sell an injury from the night before was shocking and probably confusing to his child fan base. But I suppose he is playing the super hero type gimmick so I don't blame him.

Terrible is the word I would use.

Why was Jeff Hardy so over with fans? He wasn't a great technical wrestler, better than cena, but still not great.

I'm sorry, I had to quit after reading this. I think you say something later about pointing out all your mistakes, of which there are plenty, but this just takes the cake. Ziggler is a fucking fool in the ring. He gets lost half the time, his storytelling mediocre, his psychology worse. If he didn't look like Mr. Perfect, the IWC wouldn't give a flying fuck about him.

Does he have potential? Sure, I'll say that. But Ziggler needs his hand held in order to work a match. Go watch his match at Capitol Punishment with Kofi Kingston. If I had been Kingston I would have knocked his ass out after the match for being so shitastically inept. In that match, Ziggler botches relentlessly, does stupid things constantly, misses his marks several times...it's a wonder Kofi didn't just storm out of the ring then.

The fact you think Ziggler is a top 5 wrestler tells me all I need to know about how limited your understanding of wrestling is. If you think you made a decent point after this part, let me know and I'll address it. But I don't have time to continuously point out how stupid someone is, when they think Ziggler is a Top 5 worker.

He is the new Shawn Michaels, give it a few years. The best seller in the WWE. Technically sound and good on the mic. If he hasn't won the WWE title by the end of 2012 I will cut off my right hand.

We talk about profits because that determines the quality of a wrestler. As I said before, the best workers make the most money. It's been said time and again by everyone who has ever been successful in the business. Hell, Trips said it on Raw a month ago.

LOL...that is all I have to say about that. You really are stupid.

 

[Slyfox696]

You said yourself the main face sells tickets...Well why are there half empty arenas every monday and tuesday night?

Worldwide economic recession. Have you not been paying attention for the last several years?

Thanks for reinforcing my point, almost double the buys in 2002 when Cena wasn't the main face.

Why does that matter? No one is claiming Cena draws like Rock or Austin, but those guys aren't regular workers anymore. So you have no point. However, if you go look at WWE's business in 2003-2005 before Cena, you'll notice that business has improved DRASTICALLY since Cena became champion. I mean, there has been a very big difference, even despite the economic troubles the world has faced.

MITB is incomparable because it was free everywhere apart from the US, whereas Vengenece wasn't.

Backtracking off of your statement awfully fast. Amazing what happens when you're proven wrong.

By the way, I believe PPVs didn't start charging internationally until 2006. So, it was free everywhere but the US back in 2002, aside from possibly the rare show.

Well, that makes you an idiot.

Being right makes me an idiot?

Have ratings and buys gone up since Punk's push? Definitively yes.

Punk's promo happened June 27th.

2011 Ratings before Punk's promo: 3.37
2011 Ratings after Punk's promo: 3.01

Money in the Bank did more buys than last year, but Summerslam did fewer.

So, when you say "definitely yes", what you REALLY mean to say is "not really".

Would a midcard heel be allowed the spot of giving a 'heartfelt' promo?

Would a good worker still be a midcard heel? Cena used to be a midcard heel, but he was so good, he became a main-eventer by popular demand.

Get back to me when that happens to Ziggler.

You may be right, probably not, but you may be.

Oh, I am.

I usually zone out of the first five minutes of a Cena promo because his voice is just so fucking boring.

So...you admit your ignorance?

Why is it Jack Swagger is terrible on the mic, he could tell a story perfectly...but he's got a terrible lisp. So that point is void...next...

You're not even making sense. What does Jack Swagger have to do with anything? Swagger is terrible on the mic, not because he has a lisp, but because he's terrible on the mic.

We may have to agree to disagree here because a wrestler can either sell...or they can't. He never tells a story. It is the same thing every time, he gets beat down and explodes with the 5 moves, fails an FU, reverses another finisher with the STFU then it either ends or the cycle restarts. When he's getting blows from someone big like Batista or even Barrett. He doesn't look like he's hurt, he just looks like he is poorly acting.

Yeah, I'll just mark this up to blind hate.

Cena tells incredible stories. His match with Punk, for example, was a remarkable back and forth affair, where each man proved they could hang in the other man's game. Punk proved he was legit in the main-event, Cena worked a more technical style of match, each man forcing the other to up their game to new heights. Fantastic story.

Or let's go back to his match with Trips at Wrestlemania 22. The "wrestler vs. the brawler" match. The match starts with Trips being the better "wrestler", using his experience to "wrestle circles" around Cena, while Cena uses his brawling style to try and earn the victory. But as the match goes on, we see that Cena CAN hang with "the wrestler", and indeed, uses a classic wrestling move in a droptoe hold and then an STS to put Triple H away. The brawler used wrestling moves to finish the wrestler.

I could go on and on. The fact you think Cena can't tell a story in the ring suggests your understanding of pro wrestling is pretty limited.

And my point is he is lying on the floor, eyes WIDE open looking at the ref waiting for the 2 then pushes his arm up. Very poor.

Just like every other wrestler in history. Why is this so hard to understand?

Of course his eyes are wide open, why wouldn't they be? Is he asleep? Wrestlers keep their eyes open, because they cannot always hear the referee's count. So they watch his hand as well, to make sure they don't accidentally get pinned.

Yes, his inability to sell an injury from the night before was shocking and probably confusing to his child fan base. But I suppose he is playing the super hero type gimmick so I don't blame him.

The fact you think he should be selling getting hit 24 hours before the show is confusing to anyone with a modicum of logic and intelligence.

Why was Jeff Hardy so over with fans? He wasn't a great technical wrestler, better than cena, but still not great.

Because Hardy knew how to connect with fans. He knew how to make fans connect emotionally with his character. And Hardy was damn fine at selling a beating.

What does being a technical wrestler have to do with anything? Hardy wasn't a technical wrestler, and neither is Cena. Neither was Rock or Austin. Hell, Bret Hart wasn't really a technical wrestler in the WWE. What does technical wrestling have to do with this conversation?

He is the new Shawn Michaels, give it a few years. The best seller in the WWE. Technically sound and good on the mic. If he hasn't won the WWE title by the end of 2012 I will cut off my right hand.

The Great Khali won a World title too, you must think he was great as well.

I can't say what Dolph Ziggler will be in a few years. I said he has potential. But potential has nothing to do with his ability NOW. And he's pretty terrible right now.

LOL...that is all I have to say about that. You really are stupid.

The fact you're laughing about a true statement, a statement which has been repeatedly echoed over the years by all the great wrestlers of the business, says far more about your knowledge of wrestling than I ever could.

 

[[cL]]

Wow...lolol...So much to say so little time. I'll just jump in here and there.

Originally Posted by King of Kings Rated Rko E
Few reasons why I really really hate John Fucking Cena.

1. He CANNOT wrestle. He has six moves at most. Shoulder block, backwards powerbomb thingy, top rope thingy, 5 knuckle shuffle, and the AA.

2. Shoved down our throats like a fucking monkey. This guy is in every fucking main event when there are much more deserving wrestlers out there like Cm Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, and John Morrison!!!

3. Horrible gimmick. Never give up, hustle, loyalty, respect, never back down from a challenge? What the fuck? This sounds like something a fucking 1st grade teacher would say!

4. Bad mic skills. I can tell exactly what he is going to say.
Makes fun of someone... tries to be funny... tells jokes... calls the person out... DONE!

5. All his matches are predictable. Gets beat up, does his 5 moves of fucking doom, back and forth counters for about 30 seconds, and he either does the AA, STF, or his opponent cheats to win.

6. His only fans are girls and little children. Hear the "Let's go Cena! Cena sucks!" chants? The lets go Cena chants are high pitched voices and the Cena sucks chants are from teens and adult males.

7. He is only a draw to little kids and women. You hear the boos? Yes, they are a reaction, but are they the right one? Do they make people want to see him get beat the shit out of? Or do they make people not want to watch? The heat John Cena gets, is not I want this guy to get destroyed heat. It is, "GET THE FUCK OUT" heat. Kind of like X-Pac heat.. we hate him because he is stale, boring, can't wrestle, and has bad mic skills.. not because we want to see him get destroyed. So.. John Cena heat = X-Pac heat.. which obviously isn't good and is ruining ratings.

8. Beats up like 5 people at a time. How is that believable???

9. Oversells every little fucking punch. One light punch = knocked down for a minute? REALLY?

Let somebody like John Morrison, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, or Cm Punk carry the WWE. PLEASE!

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY JOHN CENA IS THE FACE OF THE COMPANY WHEN THERE ARE BETTER AND MORE DESERVING PEOPLE THAN HIM!!! REMEMBER CHRISTIAN??? BOOKED LIKE SHIT AND STILL GETS A GOOD REACTION??? CM PUNK? THE GOD OF PROMOS? DANIEL BRYAN? THE BEST IN-RING PERFORMER OF ALL TIME? JOHN MORRISON? THE BEST SPOT MONKEY EVER? DOLPH ZIGGLER? THE TOTAL PACKAGE WITH THE LOOK, MIC SKILLS, IN-RING SKILLS, CHARISMA, AND DRAWING POWER? LETS SEE JOHN CENA KAY? MIC SKILLS - BAD, GIMMICK - BAD, IN-RING SKILLS - BAD, CHARISMA- IT'S ABOVE AVERAGE, I ADMIT THAT, BUT CM PUNK HAS MORE. I REMEMBER SEEING A THREAD ABOUT WHO IS THE TOTAL PACKAGE AND I WAS ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING WHEN I SAW THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS FORUM, SLYFOX, SAY THAT JOHN CENA WAS THE TOTAL PACKAGE...5 MOVES, HORRIBLE JOKES, BORING PROMOS, AND AN AWFUL GIMMICK MAKES YOU THE TOTAL PACKAGE??? REALLY???

Let me be clear here. I freaking LOATHE John Cena. I have a lifetime membership to this thread as a clear indication of my disdain for him. Please do not take this post as me defending him in anyway, rather take this as me doing my best to help you. As you may have already noticed, if you do not have vast wrestling knowledge or credible, non-theory based argument as to why you hate Cena you will be destroyed in these forums. All these people want to hear is that you dont like him and that you may be bored with his character. If you begin to come up with reasons why you don't like him, or begin to expound on your reasons as to why you feel he isn't credible, prepare for war. Because as much as you'd like to discredit him, his followers and seekers of logic will do all they can to discredit YOU. To Cena lovers, you'll be disected based on their love for their hero. Too the others, you'll be annihilated based on the facts or lack of facts in your argument. Here's how I'll state my argument.

-I don't like John Cena because: in my opinion, he's rested on his laurels. Because (stating fact here) he is the main event due to the being the top merch seller and being the hardest worker in and out of the ring, and having a fan base that demanded him and him rising to the occasion when everyone else either left due to injury or retirement, (the following is opinion) I feel he hasn't felt the need to evolve his character. His wrestling is as good as it always been (whether you think its good or crappy, its basically the same) and his mic skills aren't consistent. He does have times where he can rise to the occasion when there's someone pushing him (ie. the Rock or Punk) but other than that to me they seem awkward and forced. Because of his position in the company, and the old addage if it ain't broke...he doesn't fix it. I'm not going to say who likes him and who doesn't because I don't have a clue. I won't say how the ratings are affected because I don't know and don't care to research it. TO ME, the only changes i see are his wardrobe and thats just color changes. He doesn't care to do things that may appeal to a broader audience because he doesn't feel that he has to and thats why I don't like him.
See what I did there? I gave my opinion, filtered in some true fact and based my opinion off of said facts. I still have a crap load of theories on him, but I've already fought that war. You can't argue theory in here. Its a losing battle on both ends. They're battling you because of what you think and you can't prove it but they can't prove that its wrong and you're going back and forth and nobody is winning so....anyway.

If you're gonna make statements, do your best to come up with something that people can respect and not attack you for....Dolph Ziggler? Daniel Bryan the best in ring performer of all time? Really? uh, Shawn Michaels? Yeah. He's the best in ring performer of all time. IMO.

originally posted by Hamlertainment, Inc. Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, considered by man to be th industry's greatest, used a very limited moveset.

I'm not sure I agree with this....I've followed Shawn Michaels since the AWA and you can't be in the type of team he was in with a "limited" move set. Even when he broke away from Marty Janetty he couldn't be hailed as a "technical" wrestler but his moveset was beyond average.

so when is it bad to be the good guy?

Never. Its never bad to be the good guy. Its bad when the good guy is getting booed. Sure they booed Rocky Maivia too but he was a dweeb as that character. Nobody liked him and that was PRE-attitude era.
Sorry blanket statement.
Many people Booed him....Anyway, while it speaks more to this generation of viewers as to why a good guy gets booed rather than the man himself, it does beg the question, why not make some changes to appeal to a WHOLE audience?

Cena appeals to the casuals not the morons who think they're real wrestling fans when in reality, it's the casuals that matter.

I can get with this. I understand this and I'll relate it to something not often talked about here. My old pastor used to do very special things and preach basic messages every sunday and on wednesday night bible study would get into deep biblical topics. Why? Because our church sat 5000 people and he knew that every sunday he'd get people in that had never been there before or never been to church at all. So his sunday message was always similiar (not the exact same sermon) topic wise and something special always happened because he wanted to make sure that new people were attracted and stayed for what happens on wednesday night.
NOW I said all that to say this: I think that it makes sense to have Cena appeal to the casual viewer because those people who aren't into wrestling but see him doing things outside of the ring, charity work and otherwise will attach his face to the product and probably watch more. But here's the thing; he's gonna get the casual fan, but why not at least TRY to relate to the more seasoned wrestling fan? I mean, ok, you're not going to get everyone, granted. But trying to snatch a few of the "millions" will not (IMO) hurt his current standing with casual fans. Why? ...because they're casual fans.

originally posted by Slyfox Bret Hart wasn't really a technical wrestler in the WWE.

he wasn't? then what WAS he? if he wasn't technical then nobody was...

Ok. I'm done. John Cena Sucks. lol...imo.....lol

 

[Mattysandwich7]

It was 24 hours before the show! Are you really serious?.

I had to make an account because of the dumbassery on this forum.... Try getting beat for REAL with a lead pipe, I guarantee you will not be fine and running around just 24 hours later.

 

[RedStar]

We talk about profits because that determines the quality of a wrestler. As I said before, the best workers make the most money. It's been said time and again by everyone who has ever been successful in the business. Hell, Trips said it on Raw a month ago.

Is this from the perspective of a stockholder/company employee, or a viewer? I'm not a fan of Sheamus because of how many of his new shirts he sold, I'm a fan because I like his unique look and I feel his character is badass.

Is Rey Mysterio temporarily the best worker in the entire company because he drew a bunch of fans at a house show in Mexico? I don't see how merch sales, attendance, and overall ratings of an entire show have anything to do with how well a specific performer plays his character, or how he performs in the ring, or how the management books said character.

 

[Slyfox696]

he wasn't? then what WAS he? if he wasn't technical then nobody was...

What made Hart a technical wrestler? Aside from his finishing move and the basic headlock/arm bar all wrestlers use, what kind of technical wrestling did he use?

In his WWE main-event days, Hart did a lot of striking and impact moves, which do not suggest a pure technical wrestling style.

Is this from the perspective of a stockholder/company employee, or a viewer?

It comes from the perspective of one who wishes to objectively discuss quality in pro wrestling.

In sports, we use stats to determine quality. For example, in baseball, we use things like hits, home runs, runs batted in, etc. American football uses yards, yards per attempts, wins. Basketball uses points per game, rebounds per game, etc.

In wrestling, where wins/loss are scripted, we use stats like how many fans does he draw to the show, how well does his merchandise sell, what kind of ratings do his segments get, how much does he profit the company, etc. In a business where the employees sole job is to make the employer money simply by entertaining, the only way we have to measure IS the ability to draw money.

I'm not a fan of Sheamus because of how many of his new shirts he sold, I'm a fan because I like his unique look and I feel his character is badass.

And you're certainly welcome to your PREFERENCE for the Sheamus character. But if we tried to have a discussion of who the best wrestler is, and everybody just says who they like the best, how can any objective conversation be had?

Is Rey Mysterio temporarily the best worker in the entire company because he drew a bunch of fans at a house show in Mexico? I don't see how merch sales, attendance, and overall ratings of an entire show have anything to do with how well a specific performer plays his character, or how he performs in the ring, or how the management books said character.

Because how well that wrestler plays his character will determine how entertained the fans on. Fans don't pay money for someone who doesn't entertain them. If fans are paying money to watch you, then you entertain them. If you're entertaining the fans, you're doing your job. Which makes you a good wrestler.

 

[PunkNation26]

Wrestling is an actual technique based artform. It can't be used for actual competition, but move execution can be judged and seen. So you see, you can measure how good a wrestler somebody is in a way other than looking at how many shitty purple and red shirts they sell. If they are good at executing moves and their matches flow without making you cringe, then they are good wrestlers. Hell, Jim Ross has had to cover Cena's ass many times on commentary by saying " Cena's offense my not be pretty, and may not please conventional fans, but it gets the job done". Obviously I'm paraphrasing there, but you get my point. So with wrestling not being an actual competition, how can Cena's offense " get the job done"? So you see, you can say that the only two things about wrestling that matters is move techinque AND drawing money. Both matter when judging how good of a wrestler somebody is.

 

[Slyfox696]

Wrestling is an actual technique based artform.

Indeed, but the technique is about making fans care about you, not some arbitrary number of moves you use in a match.

If they are good at executing moves and their matches flow without making you cringe, then they are good wrestlers.

So we agree Cena is a great wrestler?

Hell, Jim Ross has had to cover Cena's ass many times on commentary by saying " Cena's offense my not be pretty, and may not please conventional fans, but it gets the job done". Obviously I'm paraphrasing there, but you get my point.

While we're talking about Jim Ross, Ross has also said Cena is a good wrestler who has done nothing to deserve the boos he's gotten. Ross has also gushed over many Cena matches the next night on Raw.

I mean, if we are going to use Jim Ross as our judge...

So with wrestling not being an actual competition, how can Cena's offense " get the job done"? So you see, you can say that the only two things about wrestling that matters is move techinque AND drawing money. Both matter when judging how good of a wrestler somebody is.

Yes, but you're referring only to offensive technique which completely ignores the entire other half of a match, which is the selling. And let's not forget the ability to tell a story in the ring, using proper character and ring psychology, etc. Not only that, Cena is a brawler, he uses power moves and slams. His "technique" may be unorthodox, but unorthodox is not the same as bad.

When you're only looking at the moves a guy uses to determine how good he is, then you have completely missed the point of pro wrestling.

 

[PunkNation26]

I forgot to mention selling and taking moves. I meant to say that both executing offensive moves and receiving moves and doing it smoothly without looking robotic or clumsy along with drawing money is what makes you a good or great wrestler. I do know that I saw a HHH interview where he said Cena "sucked" in the ring. It was a shoot interview outside of WWE so it wasn't a basic promo.

If I were to look at things objectively, I'd say that JBL for example, is way worse than Cena. So what I'm saying is, I think Cena is no where near as good as he's portrayed to be, but I do think there are people worse than he is. In my opinion, Hogan, JBL, Khali, David Otunga, and Alex Riley are all worse than Cena.

 

[The Crock]

I forgot to mention selling and taking moves. I meant to say that both executing offensive moves and receiving moves and doing it smoothly without looking robotic or clumsy along with drawing money is what makes you a good or great wrestler. I do know that I saw a HHH interview where he said Cena "sucked" in the ring. It was a shoot interview outside of WWE so it wasn't a basic promo.

You conveniently ignore what Triple H said some time later. That Cena was good and that he deserved to be where he was.

Wait, Cena can't sell? Please spare me this crap.

What makes you a good wrestler is a much broader spectrum than you seem to be talking about. Storytelling and psychology are some of the most important parts of being a good wrestler and Cena's one of the best.

If I were to look at things objectively, I'd say that JBL for example, is way worse than Cena. So what I'm saying is, I think Cena is no where near as good as he's portrayed to be, but I do think there are people worse than he is. In my opinion, Hogan, JBL, Khali, David Otunga, and Alex Riley are all worse than Cena.

He really is that good and so is Hogan, for one. You don't understand what makes someone good. You don't have to be Bryan Danielson or Prince Devitt in the ring, you just have to know how to work a match. Hogan told a story with his matches, Cena does too.

Most wrestlers who get labeled as "top guys" more resemble that mold than that of a great in-ring technician. No matter how good you are at chain wrestling and mat wrestling; you're not worth a dime if you can't tell a story.

 

[PunkNation26]

Hogan is probably the most overrated guy in wrestling history. The only story he told was that he was a closeted steroid abuser who claimed it was all natural hard work and vitamins. The other part of the story was that he was getting his ass beat only to miraculously "Hulk Up" and do the single worst move sequence in wrestling history, followed by the worst finisher in wrestling history, a basic crappy legdrop.

A good storytelling analogy would be if I brought up Batman: The Animated Series. Now as we all know the Batman story was told as a campy, goofy show with a simple formula. Adam West as Batman would learn of a crime via a phone call from Commissioner Gordan, then would investigate, get captured by villain, then beat up villain, then roll credits. No depth to the story whatsoever. Now look at Batman: The Animated Series.

You had a darker toned, well thought out script for the series. The stories were well thought out and didn't just push Batman beating up a villain as the basis for an episode. The show even won 4 Emmys. Now you contrast from this series and go look at Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

Same damn basic and corny formula. They beat up some puttys, Morph, confront monster, eventually kill him, monster then grows big, they get in zords and finally kill him. Now you tell me, which show told better stories? My point is, Hogan's matches had the most basic formula that you can imagine and if I had been old enough to watch him as a kid in his prime, I would NOT have been a fan of him.

In fact I started watching occasionally in 94 when I turned 7 and really found wrestling uninteresting. It wasn't until late 97 or so when I saw Austin that I became hooked for good. Also, could you please tell me what story is it that Cena is telling that is so damn interesting? The only Cena matches that I can name that were interesting to me are Cena vs Punk, Cena vs RVD, Cena vs Triple H, Cena vs Edge, and Cena vs Batista.

In my opinion, even these matches were only interesting because of who he was facing. Now let's look at Cena vs anybody else. Cena vs Del Rio for example, I could care less about. I don't blame Del Rio for that either. Cena just can't make a match interesting on his own, in my opinion. Now I like Del Rio as an in ring wrestler, and somewhat as a character. However I don't really connect with him since he is a made up WWE gimmick and not a portrayal of his actual self.

It would help a lot if WWE would let guys create their own persona instead of being afraid of letting a guy get over while owning the rights to his persona because they're afraid he will go to TNA. Makes no sense unless they want to be able to treat wrestlers like shit because they know they can. If a guy gets over and draws while owning his persona, Vince can't bully him. Plus WWE offers more publicity than TNA ever will, so guys will not leave. This is reason enough to let guys create their own character. If you let them, then they will be more interesting. I went off topic some I know, just trying to explain why Del Rio doesn't interest me.

 

[RedStar]

Gotta agree with PunkNation. Cena does not tell an interesting story. Let me elaborate.

Who is Cena? What drives him? He's supposed to be the good guy who does what's right and loves competition. What does he do to show this? Nothing, other than worry about getting the WWE championship. Cena's character cares about nothing except getting the WWE title and beating up people who did 'enough' to provoke him. They could put some actual flavor on this character by having him get involved in moral/ethic conflicts , beating up people he deems as "in the wrong" (such as calling out miz and truth for assaulting referrees and telling the crowd that they suck every night), but instead he plays his "character" by showing up and challenging/feuding for the title every night. The only story he tells is a guy that wins the title a lot and overcomes adversity in the ring. If that's enough for you, fine.

Also, I don't see why someone would base their opinion of an entertainer on their sales, instead of simply looking at the content provided by said entertainer. If that's the case, why even discuss anything? We should all automatically 100% support and approve of anyone who drives profit for the current quarter. Not to mention circumstantial and behind the scenes factors that we couldn't possibly know of, such as the example I provided earlier of Rey Mysterio selling house shows in certain places because certain ethnic groups support him out of familiarity.

 

[DirtyJosé]

It would help a lot if WWE would let guys create their own persona instead of being afraid of letting a guy get over while owning the rights to his persona because they're afraid he will go to TNA. Makes no sense unless they want to be able to treat wrestlers like shit because they know they can. If a guy gets over and draws while owning his persona, Vince can't bully him. Plus WWE offers more publicity than TNA ever will, so guys will not leave. This is reason enough to let guys create their own character. If you let them, then they will be more interesting. I went off topic some I know, just trying to explain why Del Rio doesn't interest me.

*AHEM* CHRISTIAN AND JEFF HARDY *AHEM*

You may not be wise enough to understand the purpose, but WWE keeps a lock on these things for a reason. If WWE invests money into a guy, they want to be able to see those returns. If they help a guy get exposure and attention and then are left holding the bag when they go elsewhere with that buzz, they're going to feel a little miffed. This isn't just a TNA or WCW thing; look at Brock Lesnar. WWE let him play ball by his own rules, and he took the ball and left as soon as he could to turn all the money, time, and attention WWE helped him get into a successful UFC career.

Who is Cena? What drives him? He's supposed to be the good guy who does what's right and loves competition. What does he do to show this? Nothing, other than worry about getting the WWE championship.

I've never seen Cena "worry" about getting the WWE Championship, only getting the shots he's earned like rematches and such. He's accepted loss before and congratulated whatever new champ. I smell some ignorant butt hurt coming from your post.

Cena's character cares about nothing except getting the WWE title and beating up people who did 'enough' to provoke him. They could put some actual flavor on this character by having him get involved in moral/ethic conflicts ,

You mean like he got involved between Hart and McMahon?

beating up people he deems as "in the wrong" (such as calling out miz and truth for assaulting referrees and telling the crowd that they suck every night), but instead he plays his "character" by showing up and challenging/feuding for the title every night. The only story he tells is a guy that wins the title a lot and overcomes adversity in the ring. If that's enough for you, fine.

Way to totally take everything out of context and generalize it into meaninglessness.

Also, I don't see why someone would base their opinion of an entertainer on their sales, instead of simply looking at the content provided by said entertainer.

Well dipshit, if you actually read the response Sly gave you, you'd see that wasn't what he was doing at all. You can have what ever silly opinion you want of Cena, but talking about "who's the better wrestler" is not the same as "who's your favorite wrestler". One is based in fact, the latter in opinion and personal preference. To continue the sports connection he made, I can hold the opinion that the Raiders are my favorite NFL team, but I'd be hard pressed to defend them as THE BEST NFL team.

If that's the case, why even discuss anything? We should all automatically 100% support and approve of anyone who drives profit for the current quarter.

More hyperbole from the ignorant masses. No one said you had to worship Cena and just give in. If you don't like him, you don't like him. But as I've said before, claiming that he's where he is for anything other than the FACT that he's the best at his job is foolish and stupid. If WWE could just force someone to make the money and draw the people that he does, they'd do it a lot more often. He's where he is because he's earned, and every one of his peers seems to agree with this (ps, to that idiot who mentioned some HHH "shoot", I'd love for you to actually cite it/post it instead of vaguely mentioning it, thank you).

 

[RedStar]

I've never seen Cena "worry" about getting the WWE Championship, only getting the shots he's earned like rematches and such. He's accepted loss before and congratulated whatever new champ. I smell some ignorant butt hurt coming from your post.

What was the last fucking feud he had? Oh right, Del Rio not being worthy of holding the championship. He is driven by the desire to be champion, nothing more. There's not much other dimension to this character. I didn't say he was a sore loser either, I don't know where you got that from.

You mean like he got involved between Hart and McMahon?

Getting a rub from Bret Hart and providing someone who can actually perform in the ring with Vince was nice. Yep, they had Cena suddenly insert himself into an issue that didn't involve his own simple desire to be champion. Wish they'd do it more often.

I wasn't aware one could over generalize something that's already simple. Cena preaches hustle, loyalty, and respect, and fights "for the WWE universe"... by going after the title relentlessly, or fighting someone who did something to piss him off. Neither of these two things are bad in their own right. They're bad when they're the only thing that defines your character. Funny how Cena did such great promos when feuding with the Rock. They were great because he wasn't going through the motions of holding onto a title or taking it from someone; he was airing his grievances at the Rock, who he felt was a dishonest phony.

I'll reiterate again, since the point was lost beneath the waves of debating, company stats, and "being badass on a pro wrestling forum"....(lolno). It's stupid to say I dislike Cena or dislike certain aspects of Cena, and then turn around and say he's the fucking best in the business. This is not a thread about who is doing best for the company. This is a Cena complaints thread, where people discuss what they like and don't like about what they see on their fucking tv screen; if I dislike a promo that Ziggler ran, I don't run and see the ratings for said segment, then decide that it was actually brilliant because x amount of people were watching. I evaluate the damn promo based on the product given to me.