**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!) | Page 20 | WrestleZone Forums

**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)

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Miz would be the easy option but Ziggler would be the better option. Ziggler is ready to move up the card and there can be no better person than Cena to give him the rub. It could start out with something relatively obscure, like Cena helping Zack Ryder to win the US title and that could escalate into a feud between Ziggler and Cena. It could also help Cena's popularity as there is no bigger heat magnet in the WWE today than Vickie Guerrero with the possible exception of Michael Cole. Cena and Dolph also have good chemistry as is evident from their previous matches.

Miz and Cena on the other hand do not have great chemistry and they have already had a big feud recently which was overshadowed by Rock's involvement. Since then Miz has fallen slightly down the card and combining all the reasons the prospect of Miz vs Cena just does not excite me. The only way in which I would really dig into Miz/ Cena again is if they combine it with HHH/ Nash and have a tag team TLC match at TLC.
 
Here is how a heel turn and story arc could go down:

Ziggler vs Ryder on Raw for the US Title, Swagger tries to interfere and is cut off by Punk (who is doing commentary). Ziggler gets destracted and starts yelling at Punk...Ryder steals the victory...Ziggler gets even more pissed at Punk...Miz comes out and cuts on ryder being a noboby and winning a title (basically like everyone did to Miz). Miz and Ziggler and Swagger get in the ring. Punk gets in the ring and backs up Ryder - cut to Cena music as he runs down the ramp to make it fair (3 on 3). Let the brawl begin...zig and punk fight to the back and are gone. Cena takes out Swagger and ryder and Miz are duking it out. Swag and Miz escape and run out. This leaves Cena and Ryder as they celebrate Ryder's victory....Then Cena does the turn and hits Ryder. And looks at him and laughs shaking his head as the crowd boo's. Then we see Johnny Ace on the ramp as Cena exits, they look at each other and a huge grin and a nod. End Raw.

This can explain who Johnny Ace has been Texting and develop a huge Heel role for Cena, and swerve the whole idea of Nash being the puppet and allow the HHH and Nash fight go as it is now and allow Cena be the new target of the entire roster.
 
Here is how a heel turn and story arc could go down:

Ziggler vs Ryder on Raw for the US Title, Swagger tries to interfere and is cut off by Punk (who is doing commentary). Ziggler gets destracted and starts yelling at Punk...Ryder steals the victory...Ziggler gets even more pissed at Punk...Miz comes out and cuts on ryder being a noboby and winning a title (basically like everyone did to Miz). Miz and Ziggler and Swagger get in the ring. Punk gets in the ring and backs up Ryder - cut to Cena music as he runs down the ramp to make it fair (3 on 3). Let the brawl begin...zig and punk fight to the back and are gone. Cena takes out Swagger and ryder and Miz are duking it out. Swag and Miz escape and run out. This leaves Cena and Ryder as they celebrate Ryder's victory....Then Cena does the turn and hits Ryder. And looks at him and laughs shaking his head as the crowd boo's. They We see Johnny Ace on the ramp as Cena exits with a huge grin on his face. End raw.

Eh. Its basically the same thing I said about him turning on Ryder.

However...3 mid-card guys are NOT going to main event RAW, especially for the US title. Cena could do that at the top of the second hour and that'd be it. The rest of the night you could talk about what happened, even try and do a backstage interview with him.

IF Cena were to feud with Ryder, you need to get Ryder away from the title. At that point he doesn't need the title...he has the rub from a feud with Cena to get him over.

You could do a tag team match for the main event with Cena/Ryder vs Miz/Ziggler and after Cena/Ryder wins, as they are celebrating Cena picks him up and drops him with an AA. That way you have 2 main eventers participating instead of just sitting back and letting 2 mid-card guys take lead.
 
The WWE usually saves big pushes for younger stars to enter the main event picture for the summer. I can almost guarentee that Ziggler's push and fued with Super Cena around Summerslam... not after WrestleMania.

Del Rio was going to get the summer treatment last year but it got pushed back for CM Punk's rise. Orton got the summer push back in the day, Edge, RVD, and more recently Wade Barrent and Nexus.

I think the WWE will move Mark Henry over, because he will have finished up with Big Show, and the E wont want Cena in the Rumble, since his match is already set for WM. And the E likes never puts on quality single matches for the Rumble... since it doenst have to because the Rumble sells well without it. And what could be a worse quality wrestling match than John Cena and Mark Henry?
 
This is a tough spot for the WWE; one thing's for sure, they can't make him a heel now. That need to be saved for something big like Westlemania where I think it'll finally happen. They can't put Miz against him right now because he just made the awesome truth look like trash. The only logical choice is Dolph Ziggler from business standpoint cause they have to start building him as the future face of the company. My next choice would be Broadus Clay as maybe an enforcer or paid bounty hunter for Miz and comes in and destroys Cena. Maybe having him feud wit him through Royal Rumble. I'm almost tempted to say Mark Henry but he's in a program with Big Show now. But Henry canbe used to put Cena in the Hall of Pain until the E get Cena ready for the next big feud. My last choice and people don't laugh, they should use Jack Swagger. Have Swagger just snapat least for a little while. Have him go back to being like he was in ECW. Cena & Swagger had a great match when he was champion of the brand, but they should make him more viscious and more of a shooter like Angle was during his ECW run. Either way this is going to interesting where the WWE is going on this one.
 
What about Kevin Nash? its a dream match in its own right. Cena works well with bigger opponents. They could maybe have a table match.
 
Sorry cL, I have to disagree with you calling it an "Icon vs Icon" match. Rock is an icon. Cena is not an icon. Cena is a WWE corporate creation. He was created to sell merchandise. Rock became an icon on his own talent and charisma. Granting a bunch of wishes to sick kids doesn't make you an icon. When Rock and Hogan went face to face in 02, Rock was only booed out of the crowds respect for how Hogan made it possible for the business that we love to exist.

Cena is getting legit XPAC Heat. It's even worse than "Die Rocky Die" heat. Seriously, I don't understand this shit. If this was 97, Cena would either be released or would be forced to massively change his personality. Cena may even get more hate from the crowd than Cole. To be honest, in my opinion, Cena is the most overrated WWE superstar of all time. Hell, just look at how bad Foley's "This is Your Life" segment sucked.
 
yeah let me retract Icon vs Icon.
Its more like Icon vs. Cena.

To be honest, if WM was next sunday I would still probably buy it because its Wrestlemania, but i wouldn't be as hyped about watching the main event as I could be.
Every moment of this feud should be off the charts. I mean, I realize that its a year long feud and WWE hasn't done anything like this in such a long time especially with a full timer and a part timer, but thats all the more reason to make every interaction with them two memorable. And as of late, its really been all Rock, and no steam from Cena at all. Its actually been laughable for a while now.
 
Mark Henry Appears on Raw

"I withstood all that pain and STILL i am here standing. There aint a single superstar who can take this from me"

out comes John Cena

"You said there isn't a single superstar who can take it from you...I can"

we got us a feud

IF HENRY IS INJURED (According to story)

vacated title = championship scramble = 6 guys = Cena at TLC involved in it (NOT WINNING).

these are supershows now right? so heres where im coming from with all this:

Teddy Long talks about the title being vacated, and wants a champion who deserves the title. Champions like Randy Orton! champions like Shamus! champions like Big Show!

out comes Christian who fits himself in and Wade

Teddy: we need one more person who can carry the prestiage of the WHC

Out comes Cena.

talks a bit, and now gets involved. 6 man scramble match or 6 pack match. Cena isnt lost or put in a useless match for TLC. and 6 guys fighting for it? AWESOME! we last had that at NOC 2010.

Thoughts???
 
Lets hope its with Ziggler, because Punk and Cena need to get as far away from each other as humanly possible. Cena also needs to stay as far away from the WWE Title has humanly possible, he doesn't need the title, hasn't needed the title and won't need the title for a long while. Rock vs Cena at WM28 shouldn't be for the WWE Title.

Yes, Cena and Punk had great matches this past summer, their feud and the storyline was good, but when the WWE hot shotted everything and ran out of ideas Del Rio was tossed in the mix, and everything went south quickly.

They need to do the exact same thing with Cena that their doing with Orton. Cena needs to work a program with some of the younger middle card guys and help elevate them to the Main Event. He did it with Miz last year, and I don't see why he couldn't do it with Ziggler, and maybe even Swagger this year. Ziggler could keep Cena busy leading into EC.
 
although Ziggler may be the best choice but with him holding the US title I cannot see Cena`s character taking a step back to face the US champion. The Miz is more than likely going to be the obvious way for him to go, but with a twist perhaps the Miz thanks Cena for helping him drop the dead weight of R-Truth and forming a tag team which would only help Cena become the heel the fans want and perhaps even need him to be.
 
More Cena heel talk huh??? :banghead:

If Cena turns heel and joins Miz, Ziggler, Del Rio and R-Truth on 'the dark side' then who are your top faces? Punk and part time Triple H. Dont forget, Morrison is as good as finished with WWE now!!! Cena turning heel IS NOT going to happen anytime soon. Please get over this.

As for Cenas next fued, well thats a very good question. I still see Punk vs Del Rio at TLC because that is what WWE does (serves up the same crap 2/3 PPV's in a row)

Smart money is on Miz (again and blame R-Truth for that one) or Ziggler. Thinking outside the box, how about Mick Foley? .
 
Sorry cL, I have to disagree with you calling it an "Icon vs Icon" match. Rock is an icon. Cena is not an icon.
Well sure he is. Cena has been the face of the WWE since 2005, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. When people look back at the 80s, they'll say it was Hogan's era, when they look at the late 90s and early 200s, it was Rock and Austin's era, and when they look from 2005 until 2015 (maybe?) it will be known as the Cena era.

Just because you don't understand what it means to be a quality wrestler, it doesn't make it any less true.

Cena is a WWE corporate creation. He was created to sell merchandise. Rock became an icon on his own talent and charisma. Granting a bunch of wishes to sick kids doesn't make you an icon. When Rock and Hogan went face to face in 02, Rock was only booed out of the crowds respect for how Hogan made it possible for the business that we love to exist.
:lmao:

I'm sorry, I'll have to stop right there. You're sounding like an idiot again. What's the matter, thought I had quit reading the thread, so it was okay to start talking stupidly again? John Cena got himself over with fans using a crap gimmick. The idea of a white rapper, a poor man's Eminem is a crap gimmick, just ask PN News. But, like most great workers, they can take crap and make it gold. The great ones can make just about anything work.

The Rock and Austin was nothing more than the creation of WWE's writing staff. Just like Cena. But just like Austin and Rock, Cena took what he was given and made gold out of it. He got over with fans and he's stayed over with fans.

Cena is an icon and one of the greatest wrestlers the business has ever seen. The fact you don't see that causes me to pity you, because you're watching during the prime of one of the greatest ever, and you can't even appreciate what you're watching.
 
More Cena heel talk huh??? :banghead:

If Cena turns heel and joins Miz, Ziggler, Del Rio and R-Truth on 'the dark side' then who are your top faces? Punk and part time Triple H. Dont forget, Morrison is as good as finished with WWE now!!! Cena turning heel IS NOT going to happen anytime soon. Please get over this.

As for Cenas next fued, well thats a very good question. I still see Punk vs Del Rio at TLC because that is what WWE does (serves up the same crap 2/3 PPV's in a row)

Smart money is on Miz (again and blame R-Truth for that one) or Ziggler. Thinking outside the box, how about Mick Foley? .[/QUOTE

going on the topic of using younger talent why not use zack as a top face he has the crowd support and if WWE is wise they should use that before that trend fades and if you get Ziggler away from Vickie Ziggler would easily become an instant face as well. And with Cena practically saying thank you Rock for punking me at Survivor Series what kind of face he really playing right now
 
I think they could go one of two ways with this:

1. Small scale feud w/Ziggler- I also agree that Ziggler should be pushed up the card finally. I don't know what story they could use seems the two have only had a couple of random matches in the past. This would elevate Ziggler to the top of the card. I personally see Ziggler taking on Punk for the WWE Championship at Mania and if this were to happen a feud like this would be a great way of putting him over as a main eventer. Ziggler has had his run with the US title and I think it's about time he drops it to Ryder.

2. Heel turn and feud with (Insert face here)- If you're going to have Cena turn heel I think a feud with someone like Ryder would be a great way of giving Cena something to do and would also give Ryder a good deal of exposure which WWE want in order to shift Broski merchandise. The Rock is a fan of Ryder's and he is massively over with the crowd. I've not planned out this feud match for match but I think this would be something different and exciting for Cena
 
The Rock and Austin was nothing more than the creation of WWE's writing staff.
According to SCSA, he went to Vince and told him he wasn't doing the Ringmaster thing anymore and told him he had come up with the Stone Cold gimmick himself. Whether or not, most of the catchphrases were the brainchild of the writing staff or not, is not known by me, but having heard from the horses mouth, i'm gonna say, that the writing staff didn't come up with Austins thing. Don't know about the Rock though.

Cena is an icon and one of the greatest wrestlers the business has ever seen. The fact you don't see that causes me to pity you, because you're watching during the prime of one of the greatest ever, and you can't even appreciate what you're watching.
Whether or not he's one of the greatest wrestlers the business has ever seen ...eh...ok. I mean he's a great wrestler no doubt. He probably won't be higher than 10 on my list. (my list including, Hogan, Flair, Savage, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, HHH, Michaels, Bret Hart, Arn Anderson, Curt Hennig, Dusty Rhodes & Kurt Angle.)
However if we're discussing wrestlers who've done a lot to impact the business he'd be.....well....
...man what the heck has he actually done to help the business beside be the key face in a time where major faces are few and far between? Or being the number one make a wish granter? When you ask that question of Hogan we know the answer. He got the industry noticed. He paved the way for guys to jump into mainstream entertainment. Hulkamania = Wrestlemania. He revolutionized the sports entertainment world. Its common knowledge.
We know what the top faces of the attitude era did for the business.
But when we think of this era, what has Cena done for the INDUSTRY of wrestling? (i'm asking because I SERIOUSLY don't really know what he can be credited for in this generation of wrestling) I sincerely (no bs) want to know.

He's a great wrestler, puts over younger talent, great ambassador for the WWE and a consummate professional. High merch sales, great worker etc. etc. So we agree on that.
But what has he done for the business? (No bull crap, I really want to know.)
If we are to put him in a Vince Mcmahon/Hulk Hogan, Austin/Rock category, how is he to be defined?

Why IS he an Icon? Why should he be looked at like that? Seriously.
 
Cena NEVER puts anyone over cleanly. The only guys I can recall beating Cena cleanly since 2005 are Batista and Triple H. I don't count Punk at Money in the Bank because Cena was clearly distracted to make it look like he got caught off guard or sort of unfairly got taken advantage of by Punk.

As for you SlyFox, you act like your reasons for loving Cena are fact. You also act like an egotistical, elitist asshole who thinks his shit don't stink. Also, Icons are loved as faces by the majority of the crowd during their World Title runs. Cena has never been main event material in my opinion, and he was pushed based on his physique and looks. Cena has had a mixed reactions since he first won the WWE Title. If you can't see why then you're the stupid one.

Cena squashes JBL in one of the shittiest WM matches OF ALL TIME. You can't blame that solely on JBL as JBL had some damn fine matches with Undertaker, Booker T, and Eddie Guererro. Cena generates the reactions he does because he's polarizing. The people that cheer for him are the naive and gullible kids and well, the particular women who only cheer him for being hot, with a few virgin 27 year olds who live in their parent's basement sprinkled in (CeNation). Smart fans could see after the shitty way he won the title what they were getting. A Hulk Hogan wannabe. In terms of name value and overall appeal, there's no way Cena could ever be Hogan.

Now I'm not blaming this solely on Cena. The majority of the blame goes on Vince McMahon. Anyone who's pushed to the moon in the main event picture for 6 plus years will draw a reaction, if they're not likeable and aren't the greatest technical wrestler in the world, or even somewhat above average. I think the major problem with Cena right now though is the fact that he isn't cool. He isn't likeable. He's corny. He's lame. He's starting to make me think he may actually have "lady parts"

With the way he's acting now, (even though I know WWE is scripted) why does he even continue to show up. What R-Truth said was right on the money.
 
[cL];3536410 said:
According to SCSA, he went to Vince and told him he wasn't doing the Ringmaster thing anymore and told him he had come up with the Stone Cold gimmick himself.
Actually, the WWE had several different possible names for Austin, and I think someone suggested to Austin Stone Cold, and he took it to the WWE.

Whether or not, most of the catchphrases were the brainchild of the writing staff or not, is not known by me, but having heard from the horses mouth, i'm gonna say, that the writing staff didn't come up with Austins thing.
But the booking was. The booking was very much the responsibility of the WWE. They could have had Austin working curtain jerking matches, but they didn't.

Austin was a product of the WWE. Austin certainly made the most of the opportunity they gave him, but if we're going to claim Cena is a WWE made name, then the same goes for Austin and Rock.

Don't know about the Rock though.
Pretty certain Brian Gerwitz wrote most of Rock's material.


Whether or not he's one of the greatest wrestlers the business has ever seen ...eh...ok. I mean he's a great wrestler no doubt. He probably won't be higher than 10 on my list. (my list including, Hogan, Flair, Savage, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, HHH, Michaels, Bret Hart, Arn Anderson, Curt Hennig, Dusty Rhodes & Kurt Angle.)
Only Hogan, Flair, Rock and Austin can definitely say they have had a bigger impact on the wrestling business than John Cena. HHH and Undertaker are probably on the same playing field, and possibly Hart. Anderson and Hennig are no where close.


However if we're discussing wrestlers who've done a lot to impact the business he'd be.....well....
...man what the heck has he actually done to help the business beside be the key face in a time where major faces are few and far between?
His job?

He's made the WWE the most money they've made since the Attitude Era. He's put the WWE into the mainstream, and for the right reasons. He's the lead in the WWE public events, he's the public face of the Make a Wish foundation, and the most popular worker with the US military.

He's given the WWE a mainstream credibility they haven't had since Hogan in the 80s. Because while the Attitude Era was huge, it didn't shine the WWE in a positive public light. It put them in the same category as Jerry Springer. The John Cena led WWE has erased that and has given the WWE a far more positive image, which was especially important after the Benoit murders, and as Linda McMahon tries to win a public office.

Why IS he an Icon? Why should he be looked at like that? Seriously.
Seriously, you have to know the definition of an icon to answer that question. Not being a smartass, but find out the definition of the word icon, and you'll understand.

Cena NEVER puts anyone over cleanly. The only guys I can recall beating Cena cleanly since 2005 are Batista and Triple H. I don't count Punk at Money in the Bank because Cena was clearly distracted to make it look like he got caught off guard or sort of unfairly got taken advantage of by Punk.
You're mixing up two different ideas.

Cena may never lose cleanly, but he puts people over all the time. They are two completely different concepts.

As for you SlyFox, you act like your reasons for loving Cena are fact.
They are. When you understand what pro wrestling is about, you'll understand why they are facts.

You also act like an egotistical, elitist asshole who thinks his shit don't stink.
Only to people who post stupidly. Post reasonably and rationally, and I'll respond in kind.

Also, Icons are loved as faces by the majority of the crowd during their World Title runs.
Like the "icon" Shawn Michaels, whose WWF title run in 1996 ended with so many boos you would think the entire world hated him?

Without being a smartass, you need to also research the meaning of the word icon.

Cena has never been main event material in my opinion
And in the opinion of Vince McMahon, Hulk Hogan, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, HHH, etc., Cena has more than earned his main-event spot.

So whose opinion to believe...hmm, that's a tough one, but I'll go with the group of Hall of Famers.

and he was pushed based on his physique and looks.
No, he was pushed because his rapping gimmick was mad over with fans.

Cena has had a mixed reactions since he first won the WWE Title. If you can't see why then you're the stupid one.
The fact you think mixed reactions means a thing clearly proves there's only one stupid person here, and it's not me.

Cena squashes JBL in one of the shittiest WM matches OF ALL TIME. You can't blame that solely on JBL as JBL had some damn fine matches with Undertaker, Booker T, and Eddie Guererro.
You obviously haven't watched many WM matches if you think that was one of the worst matches of all time.

Amusingly though, you fail to mention Cena and JBL's I Quit match, which has received critical acclaim from most people whose opinions are worth reading.

Cena generates the reactions he does because he's polarizing. The people that cheer for him are the naive and gullible kids and well, the particular women who only cheer him for being hot, with a few virgin 27 year olds who live in their parent's basement sprinkled in (CeNation). Smart fans could see after the shitty way he won the title what they were getting. A Hulk Hogan wannabe.
:lmao:

Once more you prove your stupidity. Having to resort to tired cliches, ones I've already read a couple of times today, shows a clear lack of ability for creative thinking.

But again, I refer you to the list of legends who have supported Cena's ability in the wrestling business. Perhaps Triple H is a virgin 27 year old living in his parent's basement?

In terms of name value and overall appeal, there's no way Cena could ever be Hogan.
And the only people who say he is are people like you who use it to criticize Cena. Have you EVER seen me compare Cena to Hulk Hogan? Hulk Hogan is, without any doubt, the greatest pro wrestler of all time. John Cena is not on his level. No one is on Hogan's level. Only one person can claim to come close, but Austin was only mega over for three or four years. Hulk Hogan has done it for 30 years.

However, while John Cena is not Hulk Hogan, he is clearly the biggest superstar in this generation. Even you cannot argue that.

Now I'm not blaming this solely on Cena. The majority of the blame goes on Vince McMahon.
Considering Cena has made Vince so much money he probably sleeps on a bed stuffed with $100 bills, I'm sure Vince McMahon is more than happy to share in that "blame".

Anyone who's pushed to the moon in the main event picture for 6 plus years will draw a reaction, if they're not likeable and aren't the greatest technical wrestler in the world, or even somewhat above average.
What the fuck does being a technical wrestler have to do with anything? Cena's character is not a technical wrestler, how fucking stupid can you be?

Technical wrestling is simply a style of wrestling, and one the majority of wrestling fans don't give a damn about. Wrestling fans want to see brawlers, not technical wrestlers. But quality of a pro wrestler isn't determined by the style he works, but rather how well he works in the ring. And Cena has been the best worker in the world for many years now.
 
OK, my definition of an iconic wrestler is a guy who revolutionized the business. Hogan is an icon. Austin is an icon. Rock is an icon. Shawn Michaels is an icon. Bret Hart is an icon. Flair is definitly an icon. Heck, the list goes on and on. HHH I would say is a borderline icon. Cena hasn't done anything other than lead the charge into an era of PG watered down shit. Now we all know now that this is Linda McMahon's fault. Nobody gives two shits about her political dreams and she should know that now.

Also, in my opinion, Shawn was booed in 96 because he came off as sort of "gay" in the eyes of hardcore masculine teenage and adult male fans. Now I'm not making a gay bashing remark, I'm just stating what I believe to be the view of the fanbase at the time. When he turned heel and formed DX, in my opinion, he truly revolutionized the business. Rock and Austin's careers speak for themselves. I still believe the Attitude Era to be the greatest wrestling period ever because of Austin, Rock, and Foley. So I'll probably even say that Foley is an icon.

Persona has nothing to do with wrestling ability. Sure it may dictate how you wrestle matches, like for instance if you're a comedy jobber like Santino. But serious main event workers are usually pretty good technical wrestlers. Rock is pretty damn good to be a guy known mainly for his personality. Hell Rock is bigger than Cena so I don't get the whole " Cena doesn't wrestle because he's big and can overpower everybody" argument.

Heck, nobody does steroids anymore, so a guy who's 6ft tall and weighs 240lbs seems like a giant. Of course he's going to over power everyone. Rock however is 6ft 5 and 260 pounds and still does a lot of different stuff in the ring. Hogan was like 6ft4 and 300 pounds. It was more believable what he did to people. Plus it was the 80s, before people really became exposed to how the business worked. Some people probably believed Hogan was the strongest man on earth.

But let's just take the "wrestling ability" argument out of the equation. Just looking at Cena's persona, I don't see how any intelligent person can relate to him or find him entertaining. He's super boring, he's a pandering goody goody, never gets mad unless it's to bully R Truth and Miz when they speak the truth. Yes I know it scripted, and that Truth failed a bogus drug test, but Cena still buried Miz and Truth which was uncalled for.

I'd be willing to say that Truth would whoop Cena's ass in a legit fight. I'd also say if you didn't agree with what Truth said about Cena on Raw, that something is wrong with you.
 
OK, my definition of an iconic wrestler is a guy who revolutionized the business.
No one cares about YOUR definition. Why not refer to the STANDARD definition of an icon, the definition the rest of the world adheres to?

Hogan is an icon. Austin is an icon. Rock is an icon.
Agreed.

Shawn Michaels is an icon. Bret Hart is an icon.
Wait, how did those guys revolutionize the business? Unless you count their failure to draw fans leading to the creation of Steve Austin as an agent of revolution...

I'm as big of a Bret Hart fan as anyone else, but to say he revolutionized the business is just completely asinine.

Flair is definitly an icon.
Meh...I agree, but not because he revolutionized the business. He's an icon in the true sense of the word, not your definition.

Cena hasn't done anything other than lead the charge into an era of PG watered down shit.
*sigh*

The word "icon" means something which stands as the representation of something else. In other words, in pro wrestling, an icon is someone who is instantly associated with pro wrestling. When mainstream people hear the words "WWE", their first thought, after the Hall of Famers, is John Cena. When people hear John Cena, it immediately conjures the image of the WWE.

When I say CM Punk, no one outside of wrestling knows who that is. When I say Dolph Ziggler, people laugh at the silly name not having any idea who he is. John Cena is a wrestling icon, and if he retires tomorrow, John Cena will retire as one of the greatest pro wrestlers in history. What he's done in the last six years is nothing short of amazing.

Now we all know now that this is Linda McMahon's fault. Nobody gives two shits about her political dreams and she should know that now.
No, not really. What the WWE does now IS pro wrestling, and what pro wrestling has traditionally stood for. The Attitude Era was extremely uncommon for pro wrestling. What we have now is far more indicative of the way pro wrestling has been promoted over the decades.

Also, in my opinion, Shawn was booed in 96 because he came off as sort of "gay" in the eyes of hardcore masculine teenage and adult male fans. Now I'm not making a gay bashing remark, I'm just stating what I believe to be the view of the fanbase at the time.
I don't care WHY he was booed, I'm merely pointing out he was. :shrug:

When he turned heel and formed DX, in my opinion, he truly revolutionized the business.
:lmao:

No, no he didn't. DX was nothing more than an nWo ripoff with more vulgarity. That's not a revolution, that's a mimicry.

Rock and Austin's careers speak for themselves.
No doubt. As does Cena's.

I still believe the Attitude Era to be the greatest wrestling period ever because of Austin, Rock, and Foley. So I'll probably even say that Foley is an icon.
Fair enough. But just because the Attitude Era was something you were a big fan of, that doesn't change the fact the Attitude Era was TERRIBLE in terms of traditional pro wrestling promoting, not to mention something which could never be sustained, which the WWE realized pretty early on.

What the WWE does now is sustainable. What they did in the Attitude Era was simply survive on shock TV and sex. After a while, you couldn't shock people anymore, and fans became desensitized to the sex. The Attitude Era was great, it lead to many superstars, but it wasn't sustainable.

But serious main event workers are usually pretty good technical wrestlers.
No, they're not. The WWE hasn't had a true technical wrestler in its main-event since Bob Backlund in the late 70s, early 80s.

I don't think you understand what technical wrestling means.

Rock is pretty damn good to be a guy known mainly for his personality. Hell Rock is bigger than Cena so I don't get the whole " Cena doesn't wrestle because he's big and can overpower everybody" argument.
Rock wasn't a technical wrestler. :shrug:

But let's just take the "wrestling ability" argument out of the equation.
Good, because you obviously don't understand the style of wrestling someone works has nothing to do with the quality of the pro wrestler.

Just looking at Cena's persona, I don't see how any intelligent person can relate to him or find him entertaining.
Because we're not all oversized pimply faced teenagers who think rebellion is cool? Because we respect the idea of a guy who tries to always do the right thing, who tries to toe the moral road, who isn't afraid of a challenge, and is willing to stand up for what he believes?

What does that say about you when you find that "boring"?

Cena still buried Miz and Truth which was uncalled for.
I don't think you understand what "buried" means in pro wrestling either.

Your understanding of pro wrestling terms leaves a lot to be desired.
 
DX helped keep WWE from dying. Sure they copied NWO, but it was just as entertaining. Also, you forgot to mention Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guererro and Chris Benoit. All of these guys were technical wrestlers to some degree. Also, in todays twitter world, alot of guy's names are going to be known main stream. Heck, Punk and Ziggler trended worldwide.

I also never said Rock was purely a techincal wrestler. but he is a better in ring general than Cena. He's great at improvising. You honestly seem like a guy who probably loved Right To Censor. You seem like a bland person. Cena is boring. Finding him boring doesn't make me a nerd. I also don't dislike him because I'm trying to "rebel" or because I think it's "cool". Cole keeps calling Bryan a nerd, when in reality, Cena, a guy who's been wearing colored shirts, jean shorts, and colored arm bands and hats, is the official nerd of WWE.

The faces of the Attitude Era and the heels of NWO where cool. Today's WWE faces are for the most part, douchy and lame. To be honest, I find that sad. Give people what they want. Don't force feed self righteous, goody goody faces onto the screen week after week until the moms and kids become your majority fanbase. Wrestling used to be cool. It was like a rock band concert. You should have listened to Punk's promos about wrestling being lame and him trying to make it fun and cool again.

Yes I know Punk is working the mic, but what he said is still true. Oh, and if nothing else, Bret revolutionized the business with his involvement in creating Stone Cold Steve Austin. WM 13 truly cemented Austin's rise to the top. True he didn't win the title for another year, but you know what I mean.
 
DX helped keep WWE from dying. Sure they copied NWO, but it was just as entertaining.
Entertaining is not revolutionary.

Also, you forgot to mention Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guererro and Chris Benoit. All of these guys were technical wrestlers to some degree.
But they didn't work as technical wrestlers in the main-event. :thumbsup:

Also, in todays twitter world, alot of guy's names are going to be known main stream. Heck, Punk and Ziggler trended worldwide.
:lmao:

As did the phrase "Cena's lady parts". I'm sure wrestling fans had nothing to do with any of those things.

I also never said Rock was purely a techincal wrestler. but he is a better in ring general than Cena.
I would argue differently, but the difference either way is miniscule and not worth the time.

You honestly seem like a guy who probably loved Right To Censor.
I'm sure that makes sense to you, but I'll be damned if it makes sense to me.

You seem like a bland person.
The reps I routinely receive on the forum would disagree with you.

Cena is boring.
No he's not, you just don't know how to appreciate good pro wrestling.

Finding him boring doesn't make me a nerd.
Never said it did. What I did say is that it shows you are incapable of appreciating quality wrestling.

The faces of the Attitude Era and the heels of NWO where cool. Today's WWE faces are for the most part, douchy and lame. To be honest, I find that sad. Give people what they want. Don't force feed self righteous, goody goody faces onto the screen week after week until the moms and kids become your majority fanbase. Wrestling used to be cool. It was like a rock band concert. You should have listened to Punk's promos about wrestling being lame and him trying to make it fun and cool again.
:lmao:

I'm sorry, that's all I can manage after that ridiculous statement. Pro wrestling has far more mainstream acceptance than it has had since Hogan in the 80s. Being a wrestling fan is not something you keep to yourself anymore, a large part of which is due to what Cena has done.

You don't think it's "cool" because the good guys are acting like good guys. You don't think it's "cool" because the good guys aren't cussing and swearing and acting like assholes. You don't think it's "cool" because you seem to be a very immature person.

Oh, and if nothing else, Bret revolutionized the business with his involvement in creating Stone Cold Steve Austin. WM 13 truly cemented Austin's rise to the top. True he didn't win the title for another year, but you know what I mean.
But AUSTIN revolutionized the business, not Bret Hart. Using your theory, the Iron Sheik revolutionized the 80s because he lost to Hulk Hogan.

No, Bret Hart didn't revolutionize the business. He was a damn good worker in it, but he didn't revolutionize it.
 
For the record, the definition of Icon: (and this is not spam as it relates the conversation)
i·con
   [ahy-kon] Show IPA
noun
1. a picture, image, or other representation.
2. Eastern Church . a representation of some sacred personage, as Christ or a saint or angel, painted usually on a wood surface and venerated itself as sacred.
3. a sign or representation that stands for its object by virtue of a resemblance or analogy to it.
4. Computers . a picture or symbol that appears on a monitor and is used to represent a command, as a file drawer to represent filing.
5. Semiotics . a sign or representation that stands for its object by virtue of a resemblance or analogy to it.

Assuming the bolded is the meaning that we're going with for what defines John Cena as an icon, we can say the same for a couple of other wrestlers due in part to the fact that an icon is a representation that stands for its object and if that be true, then that icon is subjective to who knows the brand. For instance, most people DO know John Cena as a representative of the WWE. But then, a lot of people know the Miz as a representative of the WWE as well, especially in the circle of entertainment. That being said, is it fair to also call Miz an Icon? I mean, most people who know the Miz also know John Cena, but they both go into the realms of mainstream media to represent the WWE. I don't think that anyone has worked as hard as they do outside the ring as they do inside the ring like Cena does so granted he has earned the title "face of the company" But how many Hall of Famers does a person have to go through before they get to John Cena's name, when discussing the WWE? Wait, I guess thats also subjective. It's a persons relationship to the WWE as it relates to age, that gives you the answer to that question. An older person will go through 20 names before someone even mentions John Cena. My age group 25-35, will go through most of the golden age, and attitude era before we mention John Cena. Unless you are a diehard, balls to the wall John Cena fan. (and of course i'm not talking diehard wrestling fans, i'm talking the casual fan, who could take it or leave it.)
Now, most up to 25 year olds are going to say Cena because he's this generation. So icon.....eh....
for certain groups of people.
I'm willing to be corrected. But thats what i think.
 
Well, while I have been thoroughly enjoying Slyfox's absolute RUINATION of some of these people I am going to address the poll that was posted. Before I do that though I've got to say something to Slyfox.

Fox, I have been following this board for YEARS. Over those years I have seen you and plenty of the other notables and mainstays of the site debate with people, share your views, kick ass and take names. Never in that time though have I quite seen you state the truths that I have seen you state in this thread and others as of late, and it seems that some of the views you guys may have promoted or held true personally have changed dramatically. This could possibly be because only now have I become a member and so I am noticing it more, but I can't express well enough how glad I am to hear the things you are saying finally said when most of the IWC has buried those ideals and truths with idiocy and baseless opinions drawn from here-say or lack of information. From your defense of Cena, to your statements on Hogan, Flair, Austin, The Rock, who wrote what, who made who, etc...It is a breath of fresh air to hear someone tell people the way it is, the way it was, and the way it will be, lol. Thank you for your truth and accurate statements. You truly are the excellence of execution, but it might be more appropriate to rename you The Constable of Crucifixion after the roll you've been on lately.


Now going into the discussion about the poll. I think it's almost a certainty that the WWE has decided to keep Cena away from the title for a while, which will be good for him and the title picture as it allows them to build others with it and to do something else with him. They have realized that the match with him and The Rock doesn't need the title, it's already bigger than that and they can add to the card by having another feud built up with the title on the line on top of this marquee event. I am lost for ideas on what exactly the WWE will do to occupy Cena for the time being but really there's only a few months they need to fill which isn't all that much in retrospect. He can be in any given match for TLC, probably against the Miz, then be in the Royal Rumble match but get eliminated, and then be in the Elimination Chamber match and get eliminated in that somehow as well, leading us to the final month leading into WrestlMania where his feud with The Rock will take precedence and off we will go with that.
 
I was listening to the Stone Cold interview on Aftermath the other day, and Steve talked about how Stone Cold was supposed to be a heel, but got over as a face. It got me thinking, how could Cena become heel, yet still keep the kids happy. Its simple, just tweak his character.

Cena begins to grow unhappy with allot of the roster, faces and heels alike. He gets a more cocky attitude that shows. Everyone is taking exception to it, well not everyone just the big players. If done right, Cena could develop a "me against the world" type mentality. Take on both sides, not care who he is going after. Those who want Cena a heel can get what they want, and those who want Cena face can stay happy.

If done right, Cena could be a Stone Cold like character. In regards to Stone Colds dont give a damn attitude. Since Cena is as, if not more, intense then Austin in the ring, this could prove to be interesting.

What do you guys think? Could this work, if done right.
 

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