ECW Semi-Final: Barbed Wire Match: Brock Lesnar vs. Edge

[Shock]

Ladies and gents, I'm going to put this nicely. I'm still going to be fair to Brock Lesnar, however.

Brock Lesnar is not sadistic, he is a beast.

Now there is a difference. Sadistic would kill. Beast would easily injure. Sadistic would set on fire. Beast would bloody. Sadistic would laugh evilly while hurting opponent. Beast would hurt opponent and yell. Edge is a sadistic opportunist that would use any weapon available to him in the correct way and pull out a win. Brock Lesnar is a beast who would hurt his opponents greatly to get what he wants. The thing is: Edge thinks things out and is a bit faster than Lesnar is. Lesnar powers everything. Here's a scenario:

Lesnar gets Edge down. Edge pretends to be out. Lesnar gets him up against the turnbuckle and goes for a running clothesline. Edge ducks out of the way and proceeds to drag Lesnar a tiny way to the ring ropes (made of barbed wire, remind you) and chokes him with them, suffocating and bloodying him to no end.

Everyone needs to think these things out. No doubt this will be a close finish, but in my book, Edge comes out on top.

 

[RVDgurl]

My vote goes to Edge. "But Lesnar is tougher" you say? Maybe, but the tougher man does not always win in a barbwire match. Examples: Sabu defeats Terry Funk, Sabu defeats Abyss, and Raven defeats Sandman. These are 3 of the most well known barbwire matches in wrestling and the guy who was considered "the toughest" lost in each case.

The barbwire match isn't always about who's the toughest or who can draw the most blood. Sometimes it's about finding a window of opportunity and taking it (watch the Raven v. Sandman match for reference). And that's what Edge does best. Lesnar may be bigger and stronger, but Edge is smarter.

I would also have to say that the experience in a hardcore environment is a landslide in Edge's favor. Lesnar made a tremendous impact during his short time in wrestling, but he just wasn't around long enough to gain a huge amount of experience, especially in gimmick matches. Edge made his name in TLC matches .

 

[Uncle Sam]

Sabu defeats Terry Funk, Sabu defeats Abyss, and Raven defeats Sandman. These are 3 of the most well known barbwire matches in wrestling and the guy who was considered "the toughest" lost in each case.

No, I'd definitely consider Sabu tougher than a washed up God-only-knows-year-old and TNA's most overrated property. I'd also consider Raven considerably tougher than some fat drunkard who routinely had his ass handed to him.

And that's what Edge does best. Lesnar may be bigger and stronger, but Edge is smarter.

Except in the two thirds of matches where he loses.

Lesnar made a tremendous impact during his short time in wrestling, but he just wasn't around long enough to gain a huge amount of experience, especially in gimmick matches.

The entire point of Lesnar was that he tore people apart who had homefield advantage despite his inexperience. The Undertaker is one I will unashamedly go back to time and time again.

Edge made his name in TLC matches.

Well, not really. The matches he made his name in were ones were he saw maybe five minutes of action at a time. John Cena showed that experience wasn't everything, and Edge showed that going through two thin wooden tables must fucking hurt.

I also have no idea what this "Lesnar is only a beast" argument is about. He's considered a beast because he was so sadistic. That's what being a monster heel is all about. Edge has never actually set anyone on fire. He made a half-hearted attempt to do it to Foley, but it didn't really work out.

 

[RVDgurl]

No, I'd definitely consider Sabu tougher than a washed up God-only-knows-year-old and TNA's most overrated property. I'd also consider Raven considerably tougher than some fat drunkard who routinely had his ass handed to him.

You might, but most people would say that Funk is the tougher of the two. How in the hell can you consider Raven tougher than Sandman? Raven spend his whole career avoiding a bump. He may have spend the prime of his career in ECW, but his lackeys were the ones taking the hardcore bumps. On the other hand, hardcore bumps is what the Sandman did. I used t count the number of actual wrestling moves he did in any given match just for fun. He built his career on being tough.

The entire point of Lesnar was that he tore people apart who had homefield advantage despite his inexperience. The Undertaker is one I will unashamedly go back to time and time again.

I like the Undertaker.

Well, not really. The matches he made his name in were ones were he saw maybe five minutes of action at a time. John Cena showed that experience wasn't everything, and Edge showed that going through two thin wooden tables must fucking hurt.

Edge has held more world titles then anyone over the past couple of years. Isn't the count at 8 or 9? I'm pretty sure that he saw more than 5 minutes of action at a time in each of those matches. I can also say with some certainty that going through any table probably does hurt. At least a little.

I also have no idea what this "Lesnar is only a beast" argument is about. He's considered a beast because he was so sadistic. That's what being a monster heel is all about. Edge has never actually set anyone on fire. He made a half-hearted attempt to do it to Foley, but it didn't really work out.

I have no clue what "Lesnar is only a beast" is about either since I'm not the one that said that. Although I do not remember Lesnar actually setting anyone on fire, that's pretty kick ass. He does get brownie points with me for that one. Totally hardcore.

 

[Uncle Sam]

You might, but most people would say that Funk is the tougher of the two.

The guy's tough as old boots, but just as broken down and sad. The guy can take a beating, but he shouldn't have to. Anybody who loses to him in any kind of match should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

How in the hell can you consider Raven tougher than Sandman? Raven spend his whole career avoiding a bump.

It depends on your definition of tough. If you classify it as getting tons of scars and shit, Sandman is definitely tougher. If you classify it as outlasting and beating up the other man, Raven is definitely tougher. Raven going over Sandman comes as no great surprise to me - I'm sure many of the voters would agree.

I like the Undertaker.

So you're trying to get sweet revenge on the guy that messed him up and humiliated him all those years ago? I see how it is. Brock Lesnar, fresh off beating Frank Mir for the undisputed UFC world heavyweight championship, decides to compound his satisfaction by looking up how he's done in the WrestleZone tournament. But alas, his heart breaks as he notices that he lost to Edge and - worse still - his precious RVDgurl has betrayed him.

You have some nerve, missy.

Edge has held more world titles then anyone over the past couple of years. Isn't the count at 8 or 9?

It might be fifteen in the time you typed that out. Problem is, to win the belt you've got to lose the belt, which Edge does with unnerving consistency.

I'm pretty sure that he saw more than 5 minutes of action at a time in each of those matches.

I thought it odd how little Edge featured when I was watching the TLCs back. The Dudleys seem to do more than their fair share. If you were to presume that each man had equal time and each match lasted twenty minutes, then twenty divided by six... you see the point.

I can also say with some certainty that going through any table probably does hurt. At least a little.

Tell me about it. He was out cold.

I have no clue what "Lesnar is only a beast" is about either since I'm not the one that said that. Although I do not remember Lesnar actually setting anyone on fire, that's pretty kick ass. He does get brownie points with me for that one. Totally hardcore.

He did it to a three legged blind kitten. That's how sick he is.

 

[gd]

Based on Will's arguments I gotta go with Edge here. He has been in and won so many more gimmick matches than Brock that he would be very confident going into the match. Brock may by physically superior, but Edge has faced stronger and bigger wrestlers before and beaten them. The bottom line is that this is a match where Edge would find a way to win.

 

[Big Sexy]

Based on Will's arguments I gotta go with Edge here.

Not a smart move

He has been in and won so many more gimmick matches than Brock that he would be very confident going into the match.

I don't remember Edge winning any gimmick match against someone like Brock Lesnar. Gimmick match experience isn't that important to me anyways. It's not very hard to use a match that has no rules to your advantage, especially when you are as big and powerful as Brock Lesnar.

Brock may by physically superior, but Edge has faced stronger and bigger wrestlers before and beaten them.

Can you name these bigger and stronger wrestlers he has beaten? Because I doubt any of them are as talented as Brock.

The bottom line is that this is a match where Edge would find a way to win.

It's hard to "find a way to win" after your body has been mangled by barbed wire.

 

[tbanger]

Lesnar takes this, anyone who said he only decimated a handicapped kid and an old-man is ridiculous. He also decimated at least one other superstar by using the F-5 into a ring-post. John Cena is the one I can remember, but there were other. And also.... An old man? Hulk Hogan isn't just any old man. Lesnar killed Hulkamania.
Lesnar isn't dumb either. Remember the iron man match against Angle. He used strategy to beat him. He was only truly dumb when he was a true rookie, and that's when he had Heyman in his corner. Alright, Heyman has screwed Lesnar on occasion, but my understanding of this tourney is that if we want him to be a positive factor he can be exactly that.
Edge would be scared shitless trapped in the ring with Lesnar. In this environment, even trying to leave the ring is a risky procedure. Edge wouldn't be able to run or hide. Lesnar could kill him. Literally.
My "Verdict": Lesnar

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Not a smart move

No, let me tell you what's not a smart move. Trying to claim voting Edge based on everything I've already posted, wasn't smart. Why? Because I've oh, I don't know, listed multiple possible ways Edge will win? Or better yet, how Lesnar isn't as big and bad as people run off at the mouth claiming he is.

No, let me tell you what's really not smart.. pissing me off more, by using stupid, naive "but L3n@r's $tr0^g" logic.

He's not that fucking strong - surely not enough to make a difference, judging by their only encounter - in which Edge as a lesser man, took everything Lesnar had - and dished it back.

I don't remember Edge winning any gimmick match against someone like Brock Lesnar.

Big Show and Kurt Angle, just to name two.

Big Show is stronger and more powerful/sadistic than Lesnar.

Kurt Angle is just as technically sound, if not more so, than Lesnar. Angle also has a bit of a vicious side to him.

Edge hasn't just beaten both in gimmick matches, he's dominated them. Look it up. (Angle - Steel Cage, Big Show - Street Fight)

Gimmick match experience isn't that important to me anyways.

That's likely because you're being silly and, for lack of better terms - just plain ignorant. Having experience in Gimmick matches is everything in a contest such as this. Knowing how to use your surroundings, knowing how to use weapons, and knowing how to avoid major damage by 'said' gimmicks is everything.

Lesnar's been in all of 2-3 gimmick matches. One of those was an Iron Man match, hardly what I'd consider a "gimmick" match. Another was a Biker Chain match, in which the fucking Chain didn't even come into play until the very end of the match. So Lesnar's only true experience in gimmicks, is running scared inside a Hell in a Cell match.

Oh - that reminds me, Lesnar (running like a chicken shit) didn't look like much of a man.. compared to the guy everyone is stupidly calling a pussy, Edge. (who, inside HIAC, was smiling and licking his chops at destroying Undertaker with all the weapons he had)

Did Lesnar win? yes. Did Edge lose? yes. Did they face vastly different Undertakers? YES!

The ending logic of the whole thing - Edge used the Cell a lot fucking better than Lesnar, he didn't run from Taker, he took the fight to him.

It's not very hard to use a match that has no rules to your advantage, especially when you are as big and powerful as Brock Lesnar.

Oh goodie.. more ignorant L3zn@r's $+r0^g logic. I haven't disproved this as being pointless.

Can you name these bigger and stronger wrestlers he has beaten? Because I doubt any of them are as talented as Brock.

Big Show and Kurt Angle, just to name TWO!

Shocky even said that Big Show was more powerful and stronger than Lesnar. And on that same note, Shocky also said he wouldn't argue Angle's matches against Lesnar. (I'd assume he'd also not argue that Angle is just as, if not more so, technically sound than Lesnar)

So if Edge can beat someone stronger, then on the flip side beat someone more technical.. I'm pretty fucking sure, in a surrounding that fits the gimmick strong Edge, more than it does the kid crushing Lesnar, Edge wins - hands down.

It's hard to "find a way to win" after your body has been mangled by barbed wire.

Tell all those who've been covered in blood after their bodies have been ripped apart; that very sentence. Oh wait, fuck me, Edge has had his body ripped open from barbwire, and other vicious weapons.. Lesnar hasn't dealt with a major cut to his body, because he's never been in a gimmick match that could do it. (w/ exception to the Cell)

So I'd dare say that Lesnar would be more prone to being scared just like he was when he stepped into HIAC, than Edge would be.

Lesnar takes this, anyone who said he only decimated a handicapped kid and an old-man is ridiculous.

Anyone who thinks what he did to a handicapped kid, and an old man, was impressive - is purely idiotic. How could either defend themselves? Of fucking course Lesnar would be dominate against them. I'd be flat-out embarrassed for Lesnar if either of them put up any type of a.. oh wait, Gowen plancha'd onto Lesnar, then began punching him out, before Lesnar went for the only leg he had - to stop him. Yeah, that's pretty embarrassing.

He also decimated at least one other superstar by using the F-5 into a ring-post.

Yeah, Brian Kendrick - when he was known as "Spanky". Impressive.

John Cena is the one I can remember, but there were other.

It wasn't the Cena people know today. It was the Cena that got beat up by Funaki, and Bull Buchanan.

And also.... An old man? Hulk Hogan isn't just any old man. Lesnar killed Hulkamania.

In order to kill something, wouldn't it have to stay dead and gone? Yeah, no.. He didn't kill Hulkamania.

Lesnar isn't dumb either. Remember the iron man match against Angle. He used strategy to beat him.

By strategy, you mean Mr. McMahon?

He was only truly dumb when he was a true rookie, and that's when he had Heyman in his corner. Alright, Heyman has screwed Lesnar on occasion, but my understanding of this tourney is that if we want him to be a positive factor he can be exactly that.

Way to fuck Lesnar over yourself. Lesnar was at his best, in his rookie year. And you just called the "prime" version of Lesnar, dumb. Nice. Least I don't have to do it.

Edge would be scared shitless trapped in the ring with Lesnar.

Lesnar was scared shitless against the Undertaker inside HIAC, Edge was smiling sadistically and licking his chops. The only difference in this match will be Lesnar scared of Edge - not the other way around.

And for the last time, Edge won't be fucking trapped - how hard is it to cut barbwire - a drunk has done it.

In this environment, even trying to leave the ring is a risky procedure.

Only if you try doing it without putting your opponent down first. Edge isn't that stupid.. Lesnar on the other hand - tried escaping HIAC when Taker wasn't even down, let alone injured. And paid for it.

Edge wouldn't be able to run or hide.

Why would he want to? Oh wait, is this more naive "3dge iz puzzy" logic?

Lesnar could kill him. Literally.

Or not. Seriously.

My "Verdict": Lesnar

Your verdict was terrible.

ATTENTION: To anyone still not believing in Edge, after tonight's Pay per view, I will give yet another post that PROVES without a shadow of a doubt, that not only is Edge the greater choice - but Lesnar shouldn't even be considered in the same league Edge's in - he should be vastly below him.

VOTE EDGE!​

 

[tbanger]

Way to fuck Lesnar over yourself. Lesnar was at his best, in his rookie year. And you just called the "prime" version of Lesnar, dumb. Nice. Least I don't have to do it.

I'm quite sure those were nothing like my actual words, and for you to paraphrase them that way is quite ridiculous.
And frankly, just because I think Lesnar would win this, you don't have to be so rude and condescending. I like Edge, I get frustrated that they keep gifting him title reigns to extend the run of an overdone gimmick, but just because I think Lesnar should win doesn't mean you should act like I'm an idiot like in the quote below.

Why would he want to? Oh wait, is this more naive "3dge iz puzzy" logic?

Well, for most of the time he is. Alright, in hell in a cell, after Foley reminded Edge of what a crazy SOB he CAN be, he gave it his best shot... then lost. Almost like Lesnar did, except, Lesnar won. The other big matches that Edge won in his Taker feud all required La Familia's help.

I don't need to write Vote Lesnar in massive words, those who want to will. But save your essay because this is Lesnar's.

 

[Big Sexy]

He's not that fucking strong - surely not enough to make a difference, judging by their only encounter - in which Edge as a lesser man, took everything Lesnar had - and dished it back.

Yep. You're right. He's not that strong. People lift up the Big Show and F-5 him through tables all the time. Giving the Big Show a superplex off the top rope is a fucking weekly occurrence. And btw Edge LOST that match in which he took everything Lesnar had and dished it back.

Big Show and Kurt Angle, just to name two.

Big Show is stronger and more powerful/sadistic than Lesnar.

Kurt Angle is just as technically sound, if not more so, than Lesnar. Angle also has a bit of a vicious side to him.

Edge hasn't just beaten both in gimmick matches, he's dominated them. Look it up. (Angle - Steel Cage, Big Show - Street Fight)

I can't find the Big Show match but you are delusional if you think Edge dominated Kurt Angle in the cage. Unless you completely missed the part where Angle bloodied Edge, gave him an angle slam off the top rope, and actually escaped the cage to seemingly win the match but the ref was knocked out and Hogan threw Angle back in the cage. You are obviously a huge Edge fan but to say he dominated Angle in that match is laughable. Not only that but Brock has also beaten Angle and Big Show before on more then one occasion.

That's likely because you're being silly and, for lack of better terms - just plain ignorant. Having experience in Gimmick matches is everything in a contest such as this. Knowing how to use your surroundings, knowing how to use weapons, and knowing how to avoid major damage by 'said' gimmicks is everything.

Yep experience is everything. Which is why Brock Lesnar in his first ever HIAC beat the Undertaker who was competing in his 5th. As far as knowing how to use your surroundings, it's not that hard to realize that throwing someone into barbed wire is going to hurt. And it's not like Edge has been in this type of match before either.

Oh - that reminds me, Lesnar (running like a chicken shit) didn't look like much of a man.. compared to the guy everyone is stupidly calling a pussy, Edge. (who, inside HIAC, was smiling and licking his chops at destroying Undertaker with all the weapons he had)

Did Lesnar win? yes. Did Edge lose? yes. Did they face vastly different Undertakers? YES!

The ending logic of the whole thing - Edge used the Cell a lot fucking better than Lesnar, he didn't run from Taker, he took the fight to him.

More delusional statements. How the fuck can you run inside of a HIAC? There really isn't any place to go. I remember Brock picking up steel steps and busting the Undertaker wide fucking open. I also remember Brock doing a great job using the rafters hanging from the cell to hold onto so he could kick the shit out of Taker as he sat on the top rope. Edge was no slouch in the cell either, but when it was all said and done Edge lost his match and Brock won his. Last time I checked winning was what mattered. Especially in a tournament such as this.

Shocky even said that Big Show was more powerful and stronger than Lesnar. And on that same note, Shocky also said he wouldn't argue Angle's matches against Lesnar. (I'd assume he'd also not argue that Angle is just as, if not more so, technically sound than Lesnar)

I wouldn't argue either of those points either, but I would argue that Lesnar's combination of power and being technically sound is far greater then that of Kurt Angle or the Big Show.

So I'd dare say that Lesnar would be more prone to being scared just like he was when he stepped into HIAC, than Edge would be.

Brock Lesnar doesn't strike me as the type of guy who would be "scared" of bleeding, but if that's really going to make you feel better about Edge's chance of winning then keep thinking that.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm quite sure those were nothing like my actual words, and for you to paraphrase them that way is quite ridiculous.

Right.. reworded.. okay.. paraphrased, that must be it..

Let's see.. did you say this?

He was only truly dumb when he was a true rookie

Yeah, I think you did. And guess what, his "prime" was all of his rookie year.. because part of what makes Lesnar lose this match - is how I'm about to prove he begun a downward slope toward becoming nothing more than forgettable there-after...

But regardless of all that, I didn't paraphrase anything. That quote is you accurately calling Lesnar dumb. Not me.

And frankly, just because I think Lesnar would win this, you don't have to be so rude and condescending.

I'm sorry.. did I hurt your feelings with a little something called THE TRUTH? I guess I could lie to you and make you feel like someone important, using the bare minimum of excuses that I've already defused and logically proved won't help Lesnar's case.. but judging by your last remark in this series of quotes - it seems you can dish it out, so I guess you can take it, too.

I like Edge, I get frustrated that they keep gifting him title reigns to extend the run of an overdone gimmick,

Yeah, so let's try to understand your way of thinking here.

You like Edge, but you're so distraught because they continuously allow him to carry whatever show he's currently on, because his gimmick (while becoming stale to you) is still apparently good enough to make most people love it and enjoy watching it - otherwise, I doubt his merch. would sell, and I doubt he'd have the fan base (even as a heel) that he has, now.

but just because I think Lesnar should win doesn't mean you should act like I'm an idiot like in the quote below.

Hey, if you'd try to actually prove to me why Lesnar could win this match - without using more than one excuse (he's stronger) then I'd be fine with debating you like I do Shocky, NSL, or anyone else who puts more time and effort into this.. but you don't..

You just try using the same tireless excuse, as if to completely ignore anything anyone has said (including myself) on how just being stronger, doesn't mean shit.

Well, for most of the time he is.

Yeah, and yet he's won a total of 6 more Heavyweight Championships than Lesnar has. And a grand total of 24 more Championships than Lesnar has. Yeah, a pussy (by your words) did that.

Seems to me, for someone you consider a pussy most of the time, he's still accomplished far more than Lesnar ever has, could, or will.

In his first (and only) two years - Lesnar won 3 Heavyweight Championships..

In the span of the previous three years - Edge has won 9 Heavyweight Championships.. You do the math.

And before you jump in with the But he had help doing it excuse, so has Lesnar. Lesnar had Heyman and McMahon's help, winning two of those three Championships.

Edge cashed in and won all by himself, through technicalities, against Cena and the Undertaker. He won by himself, after interjecting himself into the Triple Threat w/ Triple H & Kozlov. He's also won all by himself in the Triple Threat match against Rob Van Dam & Cena.. I could go on.

You claim he's had help from the Family, but the truth is.. he just had Vickie get him in to the matches, he's actually won them for the most part, on his own. (the T.L.C match, he had help from La Familia - which wasn't illegal, either)

Alright, in hell in a cell, after Foley reminded Edge of what a crazy SOB he CAN be, he gave it his best shot... then lost.

I won't argue him losing, obviously, but if you can't see the clear difference to how Edge reacted in that match - as opposed to how Lesnar acted, then take those two styles and figure out which one is more prone to use the barbwire and use anything violent that he can get his hands on.. then you really are everything you think I've called you, that's rude and upsetting to you.

Almost like Lesnar did, except, Lesnar won.

Yes, yes.. Lesnar beat the American Badass with a broken hand. Really, I'm not discounting it being special - but it's hardly the same as Edge losing to the Deadman who sent him to hell.

The other big matches that Edge won in his Taker feud all required La Familia's help.

Edge has pinned and defeated Taker without help.. just the same as Lesnar's only defeated the Undertaker once without help.

The other two times were a draw, or with help from Mr. McMahon.

I don't need to write Vote Lesnar in massive words, those who want to will. But save your essay because this is Lesnar's.

Or, why don't you just concentrate on backing your man, like I am mine?

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Yep. You're right. He's not that strong. People lift up the Big Show and F-5 him through tables all the time. Giving the Big Show a superplex off the top rope is a fucking weekly occurrence.

Actually, you must not watch Raw these days.. because, sadly enough, Big Show really does get thrown around anymore with ease. Cena seems to do it, even with crushed ribs.

And btw Edge LOST that match in which he took everything Lesnar had and dished it back.

Yeah.. once again, where have you been? DO me a favor, re-read any of my Shocky related posts - I'm sure you'll find the answer to this in more detail.

To save you time, the jist of the whole thing..

Edge lost as a mid-carder, to a Main Eventer in Lesnar.

Wait, wait.. let me restate this for you.. Edge, a guy who wasn't a Main Event guy at the time, not yet in his prime, and not used to competing against Main Event level guys.. lost, barely, because of Heyman & a steel chair being involved. (one, illegally, mind you) So yes, Lesnar won.. Lesnar, in his prime, barely won, against a mid-card, not yet in his prime, version of Edge. Congrats.. this match is based under the logic both are in their prime.

Lesnar barely beat an Edge not yet there - he wouldn't to an Edge who is.

I can't find the Big Show match

Shocking.. tell ya what, I'll save you the trouble, here's the ending..

[youtube]vhhyZXdEBkk[/youtube]

but you are delusional if you think Edge dominated Kurt Angle in the cage. Unless you completely missed the part where Angle bloodied Edge, gave him an angle slam off the top rope, and actually escaped the cage to seemingly win the match but the ref was knocked out and Hogan threw Angle back in the cage.

Didn't you just more or less say a win is a win regarding Lesnar beating Edge in England? Now you wanna argue the difference?

Watch any number of Edge/Kurt Angle matches, Edge has won the majority - trust me, they won't hurt you.

You are obviously a huge Edge fan but to say he dominated Angle in that match is laughable.

Ugh.. re-read what I just wrote. Enjoy.

Not only that but Brock has also beaten Angle and Big Show before on more then one occasion.

Yeah, however the key is.. Lesnar (stronger than Edge, right?) hasn't beaten Angle as much as Edge has.

I will give him credit for beating Big Show, easier. But then again.. Spike Dudley & Rey Mysterio have beaten Big Show, so it must not be that hard.

Yep experience is everything. Which is why Brock Lesnar in his first ever HIAC beat the Undertaker who was competing in his 5th. As far as knowing how to use your surroundings, it's not that hard to realize that throwing someone into barbed wire is going to hurt. And it's not like Edge has been in this type of match before either.

I don't know how many times I have to explain the understanding that it's not like it was exactly the same Undertaker that tortured Mick Foley inside the Cell. Oh, and on that note.. exactly how many Cell matches has the Undertaker won?

Just because the guy is given credit for somehow "creating it" doesn't mean he's a master of it.

Edge on the other hand, has won more T.L.C & Ladder matches.. than he's lost. He's also won more overall gimmick matches, than he's lost.

And yes, yes.. Lesnar's undefeated in a whooping 3 gimmick matches. (HIAC, Biker Chain & Iron Man)

The beauty to this.. no one stays undefeated forever.. and two of those three, would hardly be considered "hardcore gimmicks". Edge has the (no pun intended) edge in this match.. even with neither guy being IN this type of match, before.

More delusional statements. How the fuck can you run inside of a HIAC? There really isn't any place to go. I remember Brock picking up steel steps and busting the Undertaker wide fucking open. I also remember Brock doing a great job using the rafters hanging from the cell to hold onto so he could kick the shit out of Taker as he sat on the top rope. Edge was no slouch in the cell either, but when it was all said and done Edge lost his match and Brock won his. Last time I checked winning was what mattered. Especially in a tournament such as this.

Have you even watched the fucking HIAC match? You seem to know selective parts that make Lesnar seem like this grand monster.. but you fail to forget Lesnar running scared, around the ring, to the door, trying to kick it open, to get away.. like a pussy.

Wow.. Lesnar used steps (not the Cell) and hung from the Cell in general. Thats fucking hardcore as hardcore can be. Stop the presses, no fucking wonder E.C.W went under.. their Wrestlers didn't know that hanging from shit, and using steel steps was the key to being brutal and unforgiving.

I wouldn't argue either of those points either, but I would argue that Lesnar's combination of power and being technically sound is far greater then that of Kurt Angle or the Big Show.

I'd have thought the same thing, except that a guy like Kurt Angle had Lesnar's number, as much as Lesnar had Angle's. And using the this guy to that guy, that guy to this guy theory.. that means Edge could hold his own against Lesnar.. because he did more than hold his own, against Lesner-two, in Angle.

Brock Lesnar doesn't strike me as the type of guy who would be "scared" of bleeding, but if that's really going to make you feel better about Edge's chance of winning then keep thinking that.

When I can green rep you, I'll replace it for the red I gave you. THIS whole series of posts is at least trying to debate everything, and I respect you more for it.

 

[Big Sexy]

Actually, you must not watch Raw these days.. because, sadly enough, Big Show really does get thrown around anymore with ease. Cena seems to do it, even with crushed ribs.

Cena is wrestlings version of superman. He can leap tall buildings in a single bound as well.

Shocking.. tell ya what, I'll save you the trouble, here's the ending..

That's nice, but it doesn't show that Edge dominated Show like you previously said he did.

Didn't you just more or less say a win is a win regarding Lesnar beating Edge in England? Now you wanna argue the difference?

I agree with you that a win is a win. I was just arguing the statement you made that said Edge dominated Angle.

Yeah, however the key is.. Lesnar (stronger than Edge, right?) hasn't beaten Angle as much as Edge has.

He also hasn't faced him as much as Edge. But I'll give you that Edge has a better record against Angle.

I don't know how many times I have to explain the understanding that it's not like it was exactly the same Undertaker that tortured Mick Foley inside the Cell. Oh, and on that note.. exactly how many Cell matches has the Undertaker won? Just because the guy is given credit for somehow "creating it" doesn't mean he's a master of it.

Taker is 4-4 in the cell. I realize he's not a "master" of cell matches but Lesnar's victory was still impressive.

Have you even watched the fucking HIAC match? You seem to know selective parts that make Lesnar seem like this grand monster.. but you fail to forget Lesnar running scared, around the ring, to the door, trying to kick it open, to get away.. like a pussy.

I remember him smartly avoiding a cast shot, then after Taker went out of the ring to get him, Lesnar got back in and regained the advantage. You call it being a pussy, I call it smart. It's actually a strategy I have seen Edge use before.

Wow.. Lesnar used steps (not the Cell) and hung from the Cell in general. Thats fucking hardcore as hardcore can be. Stop the presses, no fucking wonder E.C.W went under.. their Wrestlers didn't know that hanging from shit, and using steel steps was the key to being brutal and unforgiving.

I never said it was. Just pointing out that Lesnar left Taker a bloody mess, which few have ever done. He also did a nice job adapting to his surroundings, something you said was important in gimmick matches.

I'd have thought the same thing, except that a guy like Kurt Angle had Lesnar's number, as much as Lesnar had Angle's. And using the this guy to that guy, that guy to this guy theory.. that means Edge could hold his own against Lesnar.. because he did more than hold his own, against Lesner-two, in Angle.

Edge definitely could hold his own. This wouldn't be a squash match by any means, but I still believe Lesnar would get the victory.

When I can green rep you, I'll replace it for the red I gave you. THIS whole series of posts is at least trying to debate everything, and I respect you more for it.

The first post I made was just me being lazy and making some simplistic statements. The red rep was probably deserved.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Cena is wrestlings version of superman. He can leap tall buildings in a single bound as well.

Then does that make Edge wrestling's version of kryptonite? Because Edge has found ways over and over again, to constantly defeat Cena. (yes, Cena's beat Edge, too)

That's nice, but it doesn't show that Edge dominated Show like you previously said he did.

If you can view the whole match, you'll see Edge in an environment that is similar to what this would be. The only difference, is the ropes would be replaced with barbwire..

Barbwire that can be cut, to escape the ring, if needed. Allowing Edge to take the fight to a better place - where he can take control.

I agree with you that a win is a win. I was just arguing the statement you made that said Edge dominated Angle.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "dominated". I proclaim dominated by having more control over a match than your opponent. There have been several matches Edge has held against Angle, in which he's had more control over Angle - than Angle's had over him.

Taker is 4-4 in the cell. I realize he's not a "master" of cell matches but Lesnar's victory was still impressive.

Lesnar's victory was impressive because some People still claim it was a fluke. Now before that riles anyone up, "I" do NOT claim it to be a fluke. I claim it to be, right place - right time.

Meaning, Lesnar beat an Undertaker that as I've countlessly said - isn't the same Taker that's dominated over the years.

Shocky showed us how Taker had arguably his greatest year ever, leading up to this match. What isn't shown, is how he defeated Steve Austin - with Ric Flair's help of not seeing a foot on the ropes. He defeated Hulk Hogan, with Mr. McMahon's interference and a hellish steel chair shot to the head, He defeated Triple H with weapons, a low blow, and hooking the tights.

The point? Taker had arguably his most dominate year through victories over big names - but none of which he truly earned the way we all know the Undertaker rightfully can.

So once again, Brock Lesnar drew even in their first encounter, and pinned the Undertaker in their second. He didn't have an easy road to victory, in either contest, and could've very easily lost the HIAC just as much as he won. Yes, a win - is a win, but sometimes it needs to be shown how the match went.

I remember him smartly avoiding a cast shot, then after Taker went out of the ring to get him, Lesnar got back in and regained the advantage. You call it being a pussy, I call it smart. It's actually a strategy I have seen Edge use before.

And yet people call Edge a pussy for doing it. So when Lesnar does it, it's smart but when Edge does it, it's because he's running scared, being a pussy, or not staying to fight. If there's no difference, make sure you point that out.

You more or less just pointed out, that Lesnar is no different from Edge - by this one statement, alone.

I never said it was. Just pointing out that Lesnar left Taker a bloody mess, which few have ever done. He also did a nice job adapting to his surroundings, something you said was important in gimmick matches.

And Edge retired the Undertaker, which NO ONE has ever done.

I'd arguably say if I were the Undertaker, winning a match to keep my career alive.. is slightly more important, than winning a match to become Champion. Taker would've been fighting a hell of a lot harder, to stay alive within the Company - than to stay atop the Company.

Edge, also, busted Taker open.. for what that's worth to you. So it's not like Lesnar did something, that Edge hasn't.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I said earlier I'd provide even more proof in how I firmly believe Edge could win this contest, without a questionable thought. I now give even more evidence.

Help Doesn't Hurt:​

Both Brock Lesnar, and Edge, have won more Championships with help, than without. However, when you look at the situations of big time matches, the nod goes to Edge. Why?

Lesnar only held onto his Championship when Heyman or Mr. McMahon were in his corner. Edge has been a Champion, and retained whether he had Lita, Vickie, or La Familia in his corner.

The sole time Lesnar was a Champion, without any help in his corner - he defeated a mid-card John Cena (not the Superman we've all come to despise) and a Big Show, that was feuding with Rey Mysterio one month before. How do these situations come into play?

Easily - Cena wasn't as pure in his craft then, as he is now. He was also hell bent on injuring Lesnar, not winning. On the flip side, the Big Show had feuded with the Undertaker in a handicap match at Mania, then Mysterio at Backlash - before his Stretcher match against Brock at Judgment Day.. Big Show was obviously full of himself, because he'd faced people for months leading up, that had no business fighting Big Show in those situations. Show went into the match, cocky, and lost. (just like he did, against Taker at Mania) He didn't take Lesnar seriously, and paid.

Now, as for Edge.. Edge understands how serious each opponent is, be it Mick Foley, John Cena, the Undertaker, Triple H, Batista, or Rey Mysterio. Edge takes each opponent seriously.

He's defeated the likes of Cena, Taker, Triple H, Batista, Mysterio and several others - all without help, all in big match situations. He has more big match experience than Lesnar, and that will play into his favor here, another big match for both men.

Slow & Steady Wins the Match​

People talk about how great Brock Lesnar's rookie year was, and without question it's been one of the better rookie year's a Wrestler could have. But if you look at his Sophomore year - I'm confident in believing he left the business, when he should've because he was on a downward slope of losing.

From Wrestlemania XIX (19) to Wrestlemania XX (20) this is Brock's Pay per view win/loss record.

Backlash: retain/win against John Cena
Judgment Day: retain/win against the Big Show (stretcher match)
Vengeance: lost title to Kurt Angle (Big Show was also in match)
Summerslam: lost to Kurt Angle
No Mercy: retain/win against the Undertaker (Biker Chain match)
Survivor Series: lost to Team Angle (tapped last to Benoit)
Royal Rumble: win against Hardcore Holly
No Way Out: lost title to Eddie Guerrero
Wrestlemania XX: lost to Bill Goldberg

He won against (as I've previously said) a mid-card version of Cena, a Big Show that I felt was his best victory, the Undertaker w/ McMahon's help, and barely beat Hardcore Holly.

His losses speak for themselves, but to make sure it doesn't sound one-sided.. he lost to Guerrero thanks to a Goldberg run-in. Yet, He was also the individual pinned, in the Triple Threat against Angle & Big Show.

So, what does this say? Look at Edge's first two years through Pay per views..

Summerslam 1998-2000
(1998-99; first year)
Summerslam: win w/ Sable, against Marc Mero & Jackie
Breakdown: loss against Owen Hart, thanks to Christian distracting him
Rock Bottom: win w/ Brood, against J.O.B Squad
Backlash: lost to A.P.A & Midian
King of the Ring: lost to Hardys, thanks to Gangrel's interference
Fully Loaded: lost IC Title back to Jarrett, thanks to Gangrel's interference
Summerslam: Eliminated 2nd to last, in Tag Team Turmoil - after beating 3 teams prior.

Now, his 2nd year (99-2000)
Unforgiven: lost to New Age Outlaws
No Mercy: lost ladder match to Hardys
Survivor Series: lost to Two Cool & Hollys, with Hardys as partners
No Way Out: won against Hardys
Wrestlemania: won ladder match against Dudleyz & Hardys
Backlash: retain/won against Road Dogg & X-Pac
Judgment Day: lost w/ Angle against Rikishi, Too Cool
King of the Ring: won tag titles against Hardys, T&A & Too Cool
Fully Loaded: lost by DQ to APA, retained titles.
Summerslam: won T.L.C against Dudleyz & Hardys

Lesnar, without question, had the vastly greater start to his career.. but left it all in his rookie year.. then started to slump and fall. Whereas Edge began with a victory, lost due to different circumstances, including just losing in general.. but rebounded in his second year - then on - and continued to win, more than lose.

So, the point I'm making.. the most important point of all.. if Lesnar would've remained in the Company, I firmly believe he would've continued to lose more than win.. and continue to look more vulnerable, and less "monstrous" than most people see him as.

How does this connect to this match?

[DM]x230qf_brock-lesnar-vs-edge-rebellion-2002_sport[/DM]
[DM]x231cr_brock-lesnar-vs-edge-rebellion-2002_sport[/DM]

Lesnar was rattled by an Edge that was still learning how to become greater, better, and more aggressive. Lesnar, in his rookie year, his best year, just barely (with Heyman & an illegal chair shot) defeated an Edge that arguably wasn't at his prime yet.

Look at the beginning video part of this match, Edge gets in Lesnar's head EARLY. Think of what the Edge who's a master at mind games now would do to him. Oh, and if Lesnar tries that stupid BS rushing at him here - he's rushing directly into barbwire waiting for him, after Edge side-steps him.

So in conclusion.. Edge does have all the natural abilities to defeat Brock Lesnar in this Barbwire match. Because as a mid-carder, Edge came within a hair's length of defeating Brock Lesnar - when Lensar was at his best.

Vote Edge​

 

[tbanger]

I'm sorry.. did I hurt your feelings with a little something called THE TRUTH?

I laughed when I read this. THE TRUTH? This is a made-up tournament based around hypotheses, on a choreographed show. I'm enjoying it, but this is all based on opinions, come on. Even when someone adds in stats to back up their opinions, they're stats that occured because the booker wanted them to! I don't want to get drawn into an argument about that though because this tournament is a lot of fun.

In his first (and only) two years - Lesnar won 3 Heavyweight Championships..

In the span of the previous three years - Edge has won 9 Heavyweight Championships.. You do the math.

Yes, and recently his reigns are on and off more often than a light switch, he's becoming a glorified transitional champion. And some of his wins don't even fit his "brilliant gimmick". When Big Show interfered in the match with Cena and Edge at Backlash, I was annoyed, not just because Cena lost, but because it was nonsensical. Why would Big Show want to halve his chances of winning a World Title by ensuring one was on the other show? Why couldn't he have waited til after the match to pick the bones of Cena? And this is precisely the quality of Edge's title reigns now. That and the fact that each of them last all of one or two title defences, if he's lucky.
Brock Lesnar won his first championship when there was only one, that should count for something over Edge's shorter reigns, with cheapened wins, when there are two titles. At one point Lesnar was chosen to be THE guy.

Yeah, and yet he's won a total of 6 more Heavyweight Championships than Lesnar has. And a grand total of 24 more Championships than Lesnar has. Yeah, a pussy (by your words) did that

A lot of those reigns were not in his current gimmick though. Well, all of the World Titles were, but not the others, really. Back in the day his attitude was win because I'm better, not win because I'm "smarter" and "more opportunistic".

If you weigh up the strengths of each wrestler, Edge's is his mind, his brains, but Lesnar's is (sorry to keep going back to this because it obviously frustrates you) his sheer power. You've compared the strength of these wrestlers by saying what they've done against other wrestlers, but transitivity doesn't necessarily hold. Being able to F-5 the Big Show is a massive feat, and something I very much doubt Edge could do. I can't imagine Edge throwing him around, I know he's beaten him.

You've said that Edge's strategy in this match would involve him cutting the ropes to get out, but said yourself that he would have to put Lesnar down first. Of the things that could keep Lesnar down for long enough, I doubt a spear would be ranked highly. If Edge did attempt to leave the ring, do you honestly think Lesnar would just watch him leave (what he intends to do on the outside I'm not really sure) and then casually just let him stroll back in when Edge feels the time is right.

You've said yourself that Edge took Lesnar to the limit because he was cocky. In this tournament he's had fairly easy matches so far, such as against Jeff where he won the votes convincingly, which means he would be less fatigued, and possibly slightly arrogant. But he would not be so cocky here, because he has gone through a Legend such as Liger, which would keep him focussed, because he'd be in no mood to go home easily after beating someone like that. Whereas Edge has just got past Raven and Steamboat, meaning that he would be a lot more fatigued than Lesnar.

I'd like to think that's backing my man, but I'm not Lesnar's #1 fan, and if you're not Edge's you're certainly up there!

And you're right about me saying Lesnar would "kill" Edge, it was exaggeration, fair play.

 

[Uncle Sam]

All the arguments that are going to be made have been made. You want to see my thoughts on the issue, they're safely archived throughout this thread. I'm just going to make on final plea from the bottom of my heart.

I find it odd that Edge's sudden surge corresponds with such a decisive loss in a gimmick match. If anything, I thought the opposite would happen, particularly with Lesnar creaming Jeff Hardy earlier in the tournament. So, all I've got to say is this; ew, cream.

 

[justinsayne]

Food for thought, Edge just lost a match he's known for to Jeff Hardy, not only that but Jeff Hardy was teh guy who took Edge out in the EC in under 5 mins. at this past years NWO, this is the same Jeff Hardy who Brock Lesnar threw around the ring like a fucking rag doll, the same Jeff Hardy that still got squashed by Brock even when he had his brothers help in handicap matches, if Edge can't beat Jeff Hardy in a gimmick match then what makes you think he'll even have the slightest bit of luck against a beast like Brock?

VOTE LESNAR, seriously

 

[Thriller Ant]

Food for thought, Edge just lost a match he's known for to Jeff Hardy, not only that but Jeff Hardy was teh guy who took Edge out in the EC in under 5 mins. at this past years NWO, this is the same Jeff Hardy who Brock Lesnar threw around the ring like a fucking rag doll, the same Jeff Hardy that still got squashed by Brock even when he had his brothers help in handicap matches, if Edge can't beat Jeff Hardy in a gimmick match then what makes you think he'll even have the slightest bit of luck against a beast like Brock?

VOTE LESNAR, seriously

What you are forgetting is that we are talking about 2 different Jeff Hardys. That Jeff Hardy was a tag team specialist. He had held the IC, Hardcore, and Light Heavyweight titles, but he was nowhere near the level that Brock was. Jeff hadn't even had the ladder match with the Undertaker yet, which really jump started his singles career. The name sounds good to be on the list of guys Lesnar beat, but it really means about the same as someone beating Shelton Benjamin or Gregory Helms: someone who has never really ventured outside of the midcard.

 

[justinsayne]

What you are forgetting is that we are talking about 2 different Jeff Hardys. That Jeff Hardy was a tag team specialist. He had held the IC, Hardcore, and Light Heavyweight titles, but he was nowhere near the level that Brock was.

He beat Triple H for the IC title, Triple fucking H!!!!, he beat Big Show, he took RVD to the limit in two PPV hardcore matches, Jeff Hardy was doing just find in singles compititon at the time if you ask me

Jeff hadn't even had the ladder match with the Undertaker yet, which really jump started his singles career.

I'm coming to the conclusion that this may be the most overrated ladder match on this fucking forum, it really wasn't that great, so many missed spots, so many botches

The name sounds good to be on the list of guys Lesnar beat, but it really means about the same as someone beating Shelton Benjamin or Gregory Helms: someone who has never really ventured outside of the midcard.

Funny thing is Helms and Benjamin are prolly more talented in the ring than Jeff, the only reason Jeff is in the ME is because of all the girls in the crowd screaming their little heads off when he climbs to the top of a ladder, rips his shirt off and jumps off

 

[Uncle Sam]

What you are forgetting is that we are talking about 2 different Jeff Hardys.

The voters didn't seem to think so. If they did, then they thought that Lesnar would still beat the piss out of the "better" Jeff Hardy, as it were.

I, uh, think that's all I have to add. Vote Lesnar and that.

 

[mattitude2007]

If you vote Edge, you're just plain stupid. No semblance of an intelligent argument needed.
You're just plain stupid, if you think Edge would win something like this.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Doesn't Brock Lesnar live on a farm? He was at least raised on a farm. Here Comes The Pain told me that. What do they keep cattle in? Not cages as you'd imagine, but in barbed wire enclosed pens. So in all likelyhood Lesnar has handled plenty of barbed wire in his time. Edge, well that guy uses moisturizer. I think that says it all. Lesnar's hands are probably so rough he doesn't need gloves to handle the stuff.

 

[mattitude2007]

Edge's long hair will get caught on the barbwire too.

Military-esque flat tops for the win, Brock Lesnar for the win.