check the OP. its actually a standard ecw match. weapons encouraged.
Brock is just too big and too bad for Liger. None of the very long arguments in favour of Liger have swayed me away from voting Brock. I'd struggle to put anyone over Brock in ECW.
ECW Regular Wrestling Match: Brock Lesnar vs. Jushin Thunder Liger
- Thread starter Shocky
- Start date
check the OP. its actually a standard ecw match. weapons encouraged.
Brock is just too big and too bad for Liger. None of the very long arguments in favour of Liger have swayed me away from voting Brock. I'd struggle to put anyone over Brock in ECW.
Wait, how can you think that LigerBomb's post was "excellet" and then say there's no reason that Liger will beat Lesnar? You just contradicted yourself in the very first sentence!
How about the fact that Liger is a better worker? More experienced? More successful? Works better with more opponents? Can work a variety of styles?
Aren't those all reasons to vote Liger over Lesnar? The answer is, "yes, they are", because that's why I'm voting Liger over Lesnar.
Finally, for my last post on this subject (well, I plan on it, although I doubt it will), I introduce into evidence three reasons why Jushin Liger is a better wrestler than Brock Lesnar.
Reason 1:
Reason 2:
Reason 3:
After watching these three matches, how can ANYONE say that Lesnar is anywhere near the caliber of Jushin Liger? There is no doubt that Jushin Liger is a far superior worker, and these three matches prove it.
Reason 1:
Reason 2:
Reason 3:
After watching these three matches, how can ANYONE say that Lesnar is anywhere near the caliber of Jushin Liger? There is no doubt that Jushin Liger is a far superior worker, and these three matches prove it.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
After listening to both arguments supporting Lesnar and Liger, I have come to a decision. It's true that Lesnar has beaten legends like The Rock, Undertaker, and Kurt Angle to name a few. However, Liger has been beating cruiserweights and heavyweights ten times the number of years that Brock has. Lesnar has many strengths but he also has weaknesses and it would be asinine to think that Liger wouldn't capitalize on them.
Lesnar was dominant in his first year but in the second you could tell that he seemed to be slipping. It's not inconceivable that he may underestimate Liger's abilities and that's where he would be in trouble. Liger is a far superior worker than Lesnar and I believe he can do everything Lesnar can do and more. I'm taking experience and overall wrestling ability and I'm going with Jushin Liger.
Lesnar was dominant in his first year but in the second you could tell that he seemed to be slipping. It's not inconceivable that he may underestimate Liger's abilities and that's where he would be in trouble. Liger is a far superior worker than Lesnar and I believe he can do everything Lesnar can do and more. I'm taking experience and overall wrestling ability and I'm going with Jushin Liger.
Page 11? That's means I've missed two and a bit pages worth of posts. I won't go back and read them. What do I look like; a competent poster? "But of course not, thou fraud! Thy sarcasm knows no bounds!"
So, it's summary time. Basically, you should be voting in kayfabe. It's what you've most likely been doing up to this point (you hypocrite!), it's what the tournament is clearly designed for (otherwise why are there gimmicks, regions etc. etc.?) and something, something, something. If you're voting in kayfabe, which you definitely should be, then you should be voting Lesnar.
Otherwise, ethnocentrism is always a good reason. Vote for the American guy. Remember World War 2?
So, it's summary time. Basically, you should be voting in kayfabe. It's what you've most likely been doing up to this point (you hypocrite!), it's what the tournament is clearly designed for (otherwise why are there gimmicks, regions etc. etc.?) and something, something, something. If you're voting in kayfabe, which you definitely should be, then you should be voting Lesnar.
Otherwise, ethnocentrism is always a good reason. Vote for the American guy. Remember World War 2?
With this match it really depends on how you are voting in the tournament. Like Uncle Sam said because of the gimmick matches and different regions, it makes the most sense to me to vote based on kayfabe. Because of that my vote goes to Brock Lesnar. If you are voting based on accomplishments, longevity, or in-ring ability then the match obviously goes to Liger.
When it comes down to it Brock Lesnar rarely lost. I think the only person he ever lost to cleanly was Kurt Angle. As good as Liger was, he was far from unbeatable especially when it came to matches in the U.S. He had a couple stints in WCW where he lost to guys like Brian Pillman and even Juventud Guerrera. Once again it depends on how you are voting, but my vote goes to Lesnar.
When it comes down to it Brock Lesnar rarely lost. I think the only person he ever lost to cleanly was Kurt Angle. As good as Liger was, he was far from unbeatable especially when it came to matches in the U.S. He had a couple stints in WCW where he lost to guys like Brian Pillman and even Juventud Guerrera. Once again it depends on how you are voting, but my vote goes to Lesnar.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
You should ALWAYS vote based on Kayfabe in this tournament. Simply stated - for many of us "smarks," this tournament represents the last bastion of our childhood fandom, where we actually wondered if it was real, cried when Hulk Hogan was beaten by the Undertaker, teared up when Davey Boy pinned Bret in front of his countrymen, and felt legitimatey betrayed when Hulk Hogan joined the nWo. For these weeks, wrestling is real again.
If we went off some of Sly's points, and many of the points of other posters, then there would be no point to this tournament. In fact, if we went off of in-ring work, crowd connection, overall value to the business, etc, then the tournament would consist of Hogan, Hart, Austin, and Cena - and that's it. Why have so many participants then?
At the same time, I respect looking at total body of success and in-ring work as an indicator for one's ability. So I weigh Sly's "Liger worked better matches" argument just as heavily as I weigh anyone's "Brock is bigger and stronger," because if you believe wrestling is real, that matters. That's why Andre was a legend and Hogan's WM3 slam was the biggest moment in history.
In the end, I don't think it's far fetched to think Liger has a chance against Lesnar, even kayfabe. If you take Lesnar's prime - which is easy, since he only wrestled two years - you can discount the MMA stuff, because it hadn't happened yet. You still take it into consideration, since it's part of Brock's total body or work, but it had nothing to do with his pro wrestling prime.
Liger has experience wrestling foes of all shapes and sizes for decades. He's beaten them all, big or small. He's been a champion on two continents - as has Lesnar.
But in the end, is it really so far fetched to believe a smaller man who has 10x the experience as his opponent and a myriad of joint-splitting submission moves, kicks, and strikes could find a way to defeat a man of Brock's size and strength?
It's happened before. And in this tournament, it's all real again.
If we went off some of Sly's points, and many of the points of other posters, then there would be no point to this tournament. In fact, if we went off of in-ring work, crowd connection, overall value to the business, etc, then the tournament would consist of Hogan, Hart, Austin, and Cena - and that's it. Why have so many participants then?
At the same time, I respect looking at total body of success and in-ring work as an indicator for one's ability. So I weigh Sly's "Liger worked better matches" argument just as heavily as I weigh anyone's "Brock is bigger and stronger," because if you believe wrestling is real, that matters. That's why Andre was a legend and Hogan's WM3 slam was the biggest moment in history.
In the end, I don't think it's far fetched to think Liger has a chance against Lesnar, even kayfabe. If you take Lesnar's prime - which is easy, since he only wrestled two years - you can discount the MMA stuff, because it hadn't happened yet. You still take it into consideration, since it's part of Brock's total body or work, but it had nothing to do with his pro wrestling prime.
Liger has experience wrestling foes of all shapes and sizes for decades. He's beaten them all, big or small. He's been a champion on two continents - as has Lesnar.
But in the end, is it really so far fetched to believe a smaller man who has 10x the experience as his opponent and a myriad of joint-splitting submission moves, kicks, and strikes could find a way to defeat a man of Brock's size and strength?
It's happened before. And in this tournament, it's all real again.
I think even Sly might contest those two. I say that because I've seen his spreadsheets. And the spreadsheets don't lie. No siree bob.
Being capable of putting on good matches and winning them are two separate things entirely. I mean, isn't that what anybody who detracted from Shawn Michaels in this tournament based their argument around? They've got a point, too. Steve Austin may have had a very good match with Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13, but the man still lost.
Well, it's not particularly far fetched, no. However, it's not particularly logical or sensible either. I mean, Rey Mysterio could feasibly beat anyone in the tournament, but he's just not going to.
He's also lost to a decent amount of very low ranking American undercarders.
Lesnar's got a knife on his chest. He'd use it to stab Liger to death.
I'd like to see him do the Brock Lock. That shit is messed up.
I'll give you this one, though I hardly see Brock being kicked to the point of not being able to kick out. As a minor inconvenience to distract him before an unsuccessful Irish whip, countered into a massive clothesline? Sure.
I already said about this. Why didn't you listen then? Could happen. Probability says it won't.
Frankly, I'm kicking myself for forgetting to vote Shawn Michaels.
Oh boy, so it’s a good thing I’m wearing boots, because after mucking threw the copious amounts of BS that has amounted in this thread, I don’t want to get my feet dirty. It’s amazing how a match between these two seemingly has started an all out NJPW/WWE war not so much in this thread, but in the bar room. This thread is sad. It’s not so much about being Pro-Liger as it is Anti-Lesnar. The Anti-Lesnar hate train has yet again reared it’s ugly head, and unfortunately it’s not about the match, it’s about making Lesnar look bad, and in turn, the Anti Lesnar regime has pretty much reduced their argument to name calling. So time to take the kid gloves off now.
Brock Lesnar received the typical monster push/ Lesnar only got over on his looks: See, this is the stupid arguments base right here. What is going on here is the Anti-lesnar camp is trying to play word association so you go on ahead and associate Brock Lesnar with these wrestlers. They will have you believe that Brock Lesnar was only pushed to the moon, but was set to have a fall from grace. That’s why they throw names like Umaga, Koslov, Khali, etc. out there on you. If they can get you to subliminally associate those wrestlers with Brock Lesnar, then you will begin to doubt Brock Lesnar.
I ask you this, how many world titles did Umaga win? How many times did Koslov close out Summerslam or Wrestlemania in a one on one match where he was a feature player? The answer to these questions, is of course zero. You know why, because Umaga, Koslov, or any other randomly thrown in big monster name were never meant to be Brock Lesnar. Brock Lesnar, from the get go, was never destined to be a mid carder. Brock Lesnar from the get go, was championship material.
Names like Shawn Stasiak have been out there because of his body, and the look of Lesnar. What they fail to tell you is, Shawn Stasiak had no where near the raw ability and skill that Brock Lesnar had. If wrestlers got over only based on look, then Chris Masters would be WWE champion. Brock Lesnar had look, but he also had intangibles. This is why guys like Stasiak and Masters failed, where a guy like Brock Lesnar thrived.
It’s all mind game at this point. The Anti-Lesnar camp plays guilty by association by trying to make Lesnar less then what the actual reality was. If you’re going to use names to compare him to, how about the Undertaker debuting and dominating everyone. That guy had a fairly successful career. How about Hulk Hogan returning to the WWE and going straight to the top. Yup, didn’t turn out to bad for him either.
Brock Lesnar supposedly had a bad second year in the WWE, by bad, that means holding onto the title for 9 out of 12 months. So if that’s a bad year, what’s a good year?
Not only are members of the Anti-Lesnar camp nothing more then name callers when it comes down to it, they also apparently read the future as well. So because they feel that Lesnar is like Umaga, then obviously Lesnar was going to have a down fall like Umaga. Um no, you don’t know that, I don’t know that. There are examples of guys that never lost the push. Brock Lesnar kept the push for two years, before he chose to leave the business. Umaga made it a year, Koslov, 9 months. Beware the Anti-Lesnar camp, not only are you inferior to their vast wrestling knowledge, but they also have the ability to see the future in alternate timelines.
Brock Lesnars amateur background is meaningless in this match:
Again, silly argument number two. So pretty much, we are supposed to pretend that Wrestling doesn’t exist. That the business you watch now, has nothing to do with wrestling. In fact, the company most of you watch isn’t indeed called World Wrestling Entertainment, instead, it is now the WSEE, or World Sport’s Entertainment Entertainment. The fact that two guys usually face off against each other, and the end result if for one to pin the other is irrelevant now. Glad that we now know what we are voting for.
So pretty much this is the argument, Brock lesnar is a superior mat wrestler to Jushin Liger, but since Brock did it as an amateur, and amateur wrestling has nothing to do with professional wrestling, then Brock’s knowledge on the mat is irrelevant since it’s completely different, um sure. So what exactly is Brock Lesnar supposed to do when he gets someone on the mat. Oh I know, maybe a people’s Elbow, or a five knuckle shuffle, maybe sell a T-Shirt, open a book or tell a story. It’s a silly argument, that is essentially baseless. Brock Lesnar wrestles people, because he is a wrestler, in a wrestling ring. Until the name of the game is change from Wrestling to Sport’s Entertainment on the Logo, then wrestling is the name of the game, and Jushin Liger can not out wrestle Brock Lesnar, period, end of discussion.
By this logic, we should not allow Jushin Thunder Liger to use all of the kicks that most of team Pro-Liger has been spouting off, because obviously a martial arts background is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with professional wrestling. Let’s go one step forward. All of that body building that John Cena did in his young days, completely irrelevant. I mean, just because Cena poses for the crowd and gets them fired up, it has nothing to do with the posing he did as a body builder. In fact, Steve Austin probably got into a fist fight at some point in his life, but since fist fighting has nothing to do with professional wrestling, we should take away the ability of Steve Austin to brawl. While we’re at it, rey mysterio may have trained to be a gymnast at one point or another, so we won’t allow Rey Mysterio to ever leave his feat again since gymnastics have nothing to do with pro wrestling.
See how silly this is getting.
Brock Lesnar wasn’t a draw…
When the going gets tough, let’s do what we do best, try to throw out a bunch of nonsensical bull crap to try and confuse people into voting against the guy. Sly will have you believe that Brock Lesnar didn’t draw, in fact. Sly would place the blame of Wrestlemania 19 and it’s buy rate solely on a rookie. Now as weak as that sounds, let’s take a look at Wrestlemania 19.
The Rock vs. Steve Austin (Billed as the meeting between the two)
Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. McMahon (20 years in the making, if Hogan loses he retires)
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho (Shawn Michaels first Wrestlemania in 5 years, plus being an IWC wet dream match)
Triple H w/ Ric Flair vs. Booker T
The Undertaker and the Big Show in the same match
Rey Mysterios Wrestlemania Debut.
So… we’re blaming Brock Lesnar with a card stacked with the biggest names of the 90’s, 80’s and eventual big names of this decade, yup, makes sense to me. Wrestlemania 19 was a non anniversary Wrestlemania, as the business was coming to the end of it’s boom Cycle. On paper, the lineup for that Mania is about as solid as it gets. The problem, two many main events where no one knew what the main event was going to be. To blame Lesnar and Angle for the buyrate of this match is down right silly, if not absurd. With two title match, two huge under card matches, who knew what the main event was going to be? Only in hindsight is this pay per view judged based on Lesnar and Angle….
But you know what, that’s for the promoters to give a shit about. How buy rates have anything to do with a kayfabe match like this is beyond me. It’s brought up simply to confuse and make you question your decision of voting for Brock Lesnar. You know, Vince McMahon and the WWE were obviously so concerned about this, that they only decided to put Kurt Angle in a title match at the following Wrestlemania, and Brock Lesnar in a match involving both Goldberg and Steve Austin. Yup, those two must have really had Vince McMahon worried. Think about it. One match, Steve Austin, Bill Goldberg, and the WWE decided to put Brock Lesnar out of the entire roster in the ring with those two, you tell me whose a draw and whose not..
Oh, and to simply dispel the myth that Brock Lesnar isn’t a draw, a list of the top 10 pay per view buyrates of 2008.
Top 10 North American PPV buy rates, 2008
1. Boxing: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Manny Pacquiao, Dec. 6, 1,250,000
2. UFC: Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture, Nov. 15, 1,010,000
3. Wrestling: WrestleMania, Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Paul “Big Show” Wight, March 30, 670,000
4. UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs. Jon Fitch/Lesnar vs. Heath Herring, Aug. 9, 625,000
5. UFC: Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, Feb. 2, 600,000
6. UFC: Quinton Jackson vs. Forrest Griffin, July 5, 540,000
7. UFC: St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra, April 19, 530,000
8. Boxing: Felix Trinidad vs. Roy Jones Jr., Jan. 19, 500,000
9. UFC: Chuck Liddell vs. Rashad Evans, Sept. 6, 480,000
10. UFC: B.J. Penn vs. Sean Sherk/Tito Ortiz vs. Lyoto Machida, May 24, 475,000
Hmmm, notice anything there? Brock Lesnar fought 3 times for the UFC in 2008, and all 3 of those fights cracked the top 3 in pay per view buyrates for the year of 2008. Notice the WWE on there, yup that’s right, once, and their flagship show, with a bumped buyrate thanks to a flyweight boxer. If you’re going to bring in ability to draw, name value and recognition into this, then trying to say that Brock Lesnar isn’t a polarizing figure that gets people interested in a product, you’re out of your damn mine. There is a reason the WWE let the UFC use footage of Brock Lesnar on pay per view, because the WWE was hoping to get some sort of interest in it’s product based upon the popularity of Brock lesnar. Tob ad it seems that those Brock Lesnar Marks seemed to bump the UFC, and not the WWE, boy that Brock, can’t draw flies I guess.
Brock Lesnar’s Inexperience/Abandoned the Company/Shitty Worker, blah blah blah:
So we come to maybe the only field in which Jushin Liger might actually have a case to be made for him, experience in the business.
People tend to believe that Brock Lesnar is some giant one dimensional moron that couldn’t wrestle his way out of a box. One Dimension, I thought that was strong at one field of the business. I guess being a superior mat wrestler, striker and a power wrestler all constitutes as one dimension now? Okay.
Sly doesn’t like Kurt Angle, Sly doesn’t like Brock Lesnar. In fact, if you see a pro Angle or pro Lesnar thread being made on these forums, rest assured that Sly will be in their trying to tell you why both of those guys suck, even though one is damn near a lock to be a top five finisher in wrestler of the decade, and the other had the most dominate two year run in the history of the business.
Liger had 20 years of experience, good for him, but how often does experience matter, especially with someone like Brock Lesnar? Where the Hardy Boyz more experienced when they were demolished by the next big Thing? Was Rob Van Dam not more knowledge in the business before losing the King of the Ring? Was not Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair, the Undertaker, Big Show, or how many others you want to put in front of Brock not more experienced, but in the end left lying in defeat by the young monster.
Lack of experience has never cost Brock Lesnar a wrestling match, ever. If we’re going to vote for guys based on experience along, then why isn’t Lou Thesz still in this, he was far more experienced then Sting. In fact, next year I’ll make sure to vote for Tito Santana over John Cena, maybe Jim Duggan over Goldberg, or perhaps the Brooklyn Brawler over the Ultimate Warrior. In fact, all three of those guys wrestled much longer then their opponents here, and many more diverse opponents. This crap argument that Brock Lesnar didn’t wrestle a variety of guys is bullshit. Whether he was destroying a cruiserweight jobber in Funaki all the way up to a super heavyweight main eventer in the Big Show, Brock Lesnar beat everyone from every background, in every type of match.
This misconception exists that Brock Lesnar was a dumb wrestler, that relied only on his abilities to get him to the next level is a travesty to. I mean, this isn’t the guy that decided to play mind games with the Undertaker by putting his hands no only on Taker’s Wife, but on her stomach and the womb of the unborn child of the Deadman in side to piss him off and get him off his game. No, this wasn’t’ the same Brock Lesnar that completely isolated the Broken Arm of the Undertaker and destroyed it more in the Hell in the Cell. No, this wasn’t the same Brock Lesnar that intentionally got himself disqualified in an Iron Man match against Kurt Angle to cause damage, only to pick up two pinfalls at a time. Yup, sounds like a very dumb wrestler to me. The guy knew exactly how to get into the heads of his opponents, and that’s why he won so much.
Brock Lesnar was a great worker, and it’s the people that want to tell you that a wrestler isn’t good if he uses a suplex that is wrong. Brock Lesnar has been called, confident, cocky, unappreciative all of this, in this one thread. Congratulations, you’ve been worked by Brock Lesnar. So exactly how is a young mid 20’s wrestler that goes into the business, dominates everyone, and becomes champion supposed to act. Owe, cowardly, that’s correct I forgot. It seems that if you’re not a cowardly heel, then you don’t play a good heel. Brock Lesnar played the character he was asked to play perfectly, and you’ve all bought into it, hook, line and sinker. You think he’s a cocky asshole, good, you’re supposed to think he’s a cocky asshole. Obviously though he doesn’t know how to work, because using suplexes means he’s catering towards smarks, when in reality the suplexes wear down the entire torso of the opponent to set up for his finisher the F-5, but we’ll ignore that little factoid and just say he was an inferior worker even though there is no evidence to support that.
People simply hate Brock Lesnar because he left the business, nothing more, nothing less. He excelled at something that we all love, but decided in the long run, it wasn’t for him, so he left. So what happens, the people that watch and support him get pissed off, and decide to hijack the biggest pay per view of the year to get into the head of Brock Lesnar. Hurray Garden crowd, be proud of yourselves on that one. The fact of the matter is this, Brock Lesnar busted his ass for the time he wrestled for the WWE, and people loved to watch him. When he made a decision to risk it all, the guaranteed money, the push, the life so he could do something else in with his life, it all change.
Wrestling fans have an air of self righteousness about themselves. If a wrestler leaves the business prematurely, then he’s a no good bastard. The Rock left to pursue something else, he’s an asshole. A Wrestler leaves a small promotion to do what’s best for his family and make more money elsewhere, he’s a sell out. Give me a break. Brock Lesnar left the business because he wanted more, and in turn has become just a big of a name in sports as the WWE in the long run. It was a great risk, and it happened to be a great reward in the end.
Brock Lesnar wanted to come back in 2005 and give back to the business. He wanted a one time deal to have a match with Batista at Summerslam 2005 to put Batista over solidly as champion. The meeting went as far as a face to face in titan towers in 2005, before eventually negotiations fell apart. So to say he out right abandoned the company is a falsehood, considering the company let him out of his contract, and was willing to bring him back in 2005.
Brock Lesnar will not lose a Kayfabe match to Jushin Thunder Liger:
No way, no how does Jushin Thunder Liger match up with Brock Lesnar at all in a wrestling ring, with no rules. Lesnar is stronger, Lesnar is just as quick, Lesnar has just as much cardio training, and Lesnar is flat out meaner.
For all the weaknesses that Brock supposedly has, no one has been able to give one shred of proof as to how Liger would exploit it. Brock Lesnar’s big losses include a loss to Eddie Guerrero, after Bill Goldberg not only interfered before the match, but during the match. So effectively it took a 2 on 1 situation there to beat Lesnar. Brock lesnar lost a Wrestlemania match to Bill Goldberg, all the while feuding with the referee the week before hand, so really another 2 on 1 environment. Brock Lesnar lost to the Big Show, via a steal chair shot and a Choke slam. All well and good and perfectly legal in this environment, however, do you honestly believe Liger can swing a chair, and then hit a high impact move on Lesnar to keep him down, didn’t think so. And finally, Kurt Angle, making Lesnar tap to the ankle lock. Nothing wrong with that. You know for as an inferior worker that Anti-Lesnar Camp claims that Kurt Angle is, it was only two years prior to this that he made Steve Austin tap out to the Ankle Lock. Steve Austin, Tap, Ankle Lock, so you tell me how bad of a loss the match with Kurt Angle was.
When you cut away all of the crap, all of the BS in this thread the only valid arguments for Liger at this point have been, Strikes with Kicks (oh wait, he can’t use those since Martial Arts has nothing to do with Pro Wrestling…
and roll up. Pretty much when the basis of an argument and why a wrestler wins a kayfabe match comes down to kicking and roll up, the choice is obvious, Brock lesnar demolishes Liger in this match. Liger’s finishing maneuvers are a glorified Face Buster, and the Liger Bomb. Now, if you want to believe that Brock Lesnar is going to stay down to a power bomb from a 200 pound, 5’7” man, that’s all on you, my money is on Brock.
It comes down to this. If you wanted to vote for Liger, but sly convinced you otherwise because you would be a mark, so what. You know, I like the feeling for the first time I saw Brock Lesnar destroy both Hardy Boys. I liked the feeling of seeing a guy pick up men like Mark Henry and Rikishi on his shoulders, with ease. I liked standing in awe as I watched Brock Lesnar choke the blood out of Hulk Hogan and rub it on his body as a badge of honor. I liked marking out to Brock Lesnar becoming the youngest WWE Champion in history. I liked Marking out to watching Brock Lesnar destroys the Undertaker in a Hell in the Cell match and stand atop the Cell and gloat. I liked Marking out as Brock Lesnar lifted the Big Show on his shoulders and proceeded to give him an F-5. I liked marking out as I watched in horror as Lesnar missed a shooting star which would have killed most men, and then have the where with it all to still beat Kurt Angle. I liked Marking out to Brock Lesnar superplexing the Big Show and collapsing the ring on Smackdown. I liked Marking out to watching Brock Lesnar play the Smarky Madison Square Garden crowd at Wrestlemania 20.
You know what, I’m a mark, and damn proud of it, and my Marky ass is voting for a guy that wins this match with ease, Brock Lesnar. Don’t let the name calling detour you from voting for who you want. Don’t let Sly work you like you’ve been supposedly worked to believe that Brock Lesnar was good. You don’t supposedly stay in the main event for two years unless you are good, and Lesnar was good, and better then Liger.
Brock Lesnar received the typical monster push/ Lesnar only got over on his looks: See, this is the stupid arguments base right here. What is going on here is the Anti-lesnar camp is trying to play word association so you go on ahead and associate Brock Lesnar with these wrestlers. They will have you believe that Brock Lesnar was only pushed to the moon, but was set to have a fall from grace. That’s why they throw names like Umaga, Koslov, Khali, etc. out there on you. If they can get you to subliminally associate those wrestlers with Brock Lesnar, then you will begin to doubt Brock Lesnar.
I ask you this, how many world titles did Umaga win? How many times did Koslov close out Summerslam or Wrestlemania in a one on one match where he was a feature player? The answer to these questions, is of course zero. You know why, because Umaga, Koslov, or any other randomly thrown in big monster name were never meant to be Brock Lesnar. Brock Lesnar, from the get go, was never destined to be a mid carder. Brock Lesnar from the get go, was championship material.
Names like Shawn Stasiak have been out there because of his body, and the look of Lesnar. What they fail to tell you is, Shawn Stasiak had no where near the raw ability and skill that Brock Lesnar had. If wrestlers got over only based on look, then Chris Masters would be WWE champion. Brock Lesnar had look, but he also had intangibles. This is why guys like Stasiak and Masters failed, where a guy like Brock Lesnar thrived.
It’s all mind game at this point. The Anti-Lesnar camp plays guilty by association by trying to make Lesnar less then what the actual reality was. If you’re going to use names to compare him to, how about the Undertaker debuting and dominating everyone. That guy had a fairly successful career. How about Hulk Hogan returning to the WWE and going straight to the top. Yup, didn’t turn out to bad for him either.
Brock Lesnar supposedly had a bad second year in the WWE, by bad, that means holding onto the title for 9 out of 12 months. So if that’s a bad year, what’s a good year?
Not only are members of the Anti-Lesnar camp nothing more then name callers when it comes down to it, they also apparently read the future as well. So because they feel that Lesnar is like Umaga, then obviously Lesnar was going to have a down fall like Umaga. Um no, you don’t know that, I don’t know that. There are examples of guys that never lost the push. Brock Lesnar kept the push for two years, before he chose to leave the business. Umaga made it a year, Koslov, 9 months. Beware the Anti-Lesnar camp, not only are you inferior to their vast wrestling knowledge, but they also have the ability to see the future in alternate timelines.
Brock Lesnars amateur background is meaningless in this match:
Again, silly argument number two. So pretty much, we are supposed to pretend that Wrestling doesn’t exist. That the business you watch now, has nothing to do with wrestling. In fact, the company most of you watch isn’t indeed called World Wrestling Entertainment, instead, it is now the WSEE, or World Sport’s Entertainment Entertainment. The fact that two guys usually face off against each other, and the end result if for one to pin the other is irrelevant now. Glad that we now know what we are voting for.
So pretty much this is the argument, Brock lesnar is a superior mat wrestler to Jushin Liger, but since Brock did it as an amateur, and amateur wrestling has nothing to do with professional wrestling, then Brock’s knowledge on the mat is irrelevant since it’s completely different, um sure. So what exactly is Brock Lesnar supposed to do when he gets someone on the mat. Oh I know, maybe a people’s Elbow, or a five knuckle shuffle, maybe sell a T-Shirt, open a book or tell a story. It’s a silly argument, that is essentially baseless. Brock Lesnar wrestles people, because he is a wrestler, in a wrestling ring. Until the name of the game is change from Wrestling to Sport’s Entertainment on the Logo, then wrestling is the name of the game, and Jushin Liger can not out wrestle Brock Lesnar, period, end of discussion.
By this logic, we should not allow Jushin Thunder Liger to use all of the kicks that most of team Pro-Liger has been spouting off, because obviously a martial arts background is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with professional wrestling. Let’s go one step forward. All of that body building that John Cena did in his young days, completely irrelevant. I mean, just because Cena poses for the crowd and gets them fired up, it has nothing to do with the posing he did as a body builder. In fact, Steve Austin probably got into a fist fight at some point in his life, but since fist fighting has nothing to do with professional wrestling, we should take away the ability of Steve Austin to brawl. While we’re at it, rey mysterio may have trained to be a gymnast at one point or another, so we won’t allow Rey Mysterio to ever leave his feat again since gymnastics have nothing to do with pro wrestling.
See how silly this is getting.
Brock Lesnar wasn’t a draw…
When the going gets tough, let’s do what we do best, try to throw out a bunch of nonsensical bull crap to try and confuse people into voting against the guy. Sly will have you believe that Brock Lesnar didn’t draw, in fact. Sly would place the blame of Wrestlemania 19 and it’s buy rate solely on a rookie. Now as weak as that sounds, let’s take a look at Wrestlemania 19.
The Rock vs. Steve Austin (Billed as the meeting between the two)
Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. McMahon (20 years in the making, if Hogan loses he retires)
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho (Shawn Michaels first Wrestlemania in 5 years, plus being an IWC wet dream match)
Triple H w/ Ric Flair vs. Booker T
The Undertaker and the Big Show in the same match
Rey Mysterios Wrestlemania Debut.
So… we’re blaming Brock Lesnar with a card stacked with the biggest names of the 90’s, 80’s and eventual big names of this decade, yup, makes sense to me. Wrestlemania 19 was a non anniversary Wrestlemania, as the business was coming to the end of it’s boom Cycle. On paper, the lineup for that Mania is about as solid as it gets. The problem, two many main events where no one knew what the main event was going to be. To blame Lesnar and Angle for the buyrate of this match is down right silly, if not absurd. With two title match, two huge under card matches, who knew what the main event was going to be? Only in hindsight is this pay per view judged based on Lesnar and Angle….
But you know what, that’s for the promoters to give a shit about. How buy rates have anything to do with a kayfabe match like this is beyond me. It’s brought up simply to confuse and make you question your decision of voting for Brock Lesnar. You know, Vince McMahon and the WWE were obviously so concerned about this, that they only decided to put Kurt Angle in a title match at the following Wrestlemania, and Brock Lesnar in a match involving both Goldberg and Steve Austin. Yup, those two must have really had Vince McMahon worried. Think about it. One match, Steve Austin, Bill Goldberg, and the WWE decided to put Brock Lesnar out of the entire roster in the ring with those two, you tell me whose a draw and whose not..
Oh, and to simply dispel the myth that Brock Lesnar isn’t a draw, a list of the top 10 pay per view buyrates of 2008.
Top 10 North American PPV buy rates, 2008
1. Boxing: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Manny Pacquiao, Dec. 6, 1,250,000
2. UFC: Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture, Nov. 15, 1,010,000
3. Wrestling: WrestleMania, Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Paul “Big Show” Wight, March 30, 670,000
4. UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs. Jon Fitch/Lesnar vs. Heath Herring, Aug. 9, 625,000
5. UFC: Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, Feb. 2, 600,000
6. UFC: Quinton Jackson vs. Forrest Griffin, July 5, 540,000
7. UFC: St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra, April 19, 530,000
8. Boxing: Felix Trinidad vs. Roy Jones Jr., Jan. 19, 500,000
9. UFC: Chuck Liddell vs. Rashad Evans, Sept. 6, 480,000
10. UFC: B.J. Penn vs. Sean Sherk/Tito Ortiz vs. Lyoto Machida, May 24, 475,000
Hmmm, notice anything there? Brock Lesnar fought 3 times for the UFC in 2008, and all 3 of those fights cracked the top 3 in pay per view buyrates for the year of 2008. Notice the WWE on there, yup that’s right, once, and their flagship show, with a bumped buyrate thanks to a flyweight boxer. If you’re going to bring in ability to draw, name value and recognition into this, then trying to say that Brock Lesnar isn’t a polarizing figure that gets people interested in a product, you’re out of your damn mine. There is a reason the WWE let the UFC use footage of Brock Lesnar on pay per view, because the WWE was hoping to get some sort of interest in it’s product based upon the popularity of Brock lesnar. Tob ad it seems that those Brock Lesnar Marks seemed to bump the UFC, and not the WWE, boy that Brock, can’t draw flies I guess.
Brock Lesnar’s Inexperience/Abandoned the Company/Shitty Worker, blah blah blah:
So we come to maybe the only field in which Jushin Liger might actually have a case to be made for him, experience in the business.
People tend to believe that Brock Lesnar is some giant one dimensional moron that couldn’t wrestle his way out of a box. One Dimension, I thought that was strong at one field of the business. I guess being a superior mat wrestler, striker and a power wrestler all constitutes as one dimension now? Okay.
Sly doesn’t like Kurt Angle, Sly doesn’t like Brock Lesnar. In fact, if you see a pro Angle or pro Lesnar thread being made on these forums, rest assured that Sly will be in their trying to tell you why both of those guys suck, even though one is damn near a lock to be a top five finisher in wrestler of the decade, and the other had the most dominate two year run in the history of the business.
Liger had 20 years of experience, good for him, but how often does experience matter, especially with someone like Brock Lesnar? Where the Hardy Boyz more experienced when they were demolished by the next big Thing? Was Rob Van Dam not more knowledge in the business before losing the King of the Ring? Was not Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair, the Undertaker, Big Show, or how many others you want to put in front of Brock not more experienced, but in the end left lying in defeat by the young monster.
Lack of experience has never cost Brock Lesnar a wrestling match, ever. If we’re going to vote for guys based on experience along, then why isn’t Lou Thesz still in this, he was far more experienced then Sting. In fact, next year I’ll make sure to vote for Tito Santana over John Cena, maybe Jim Duggan over Goldberg, or perhaps the Brooklyn Brawler over the Ultimate Warrior. In fact, all three of those guys wrestled much longer then their opponents here, and many more diverse opponents. This crap argument that Brock Lesnar didn’t wrestle a variety of guys is bullshit. Whether he was destroying a cruiserweight jobber in Funaki all the way up to a super heavyweight main eventer in the Big Show, Brock Lesnar beat everyone from every background, in every type of match.
This misconception exists that Brock Lesnar was a dumb wrestler, that relied only on his abilities to get him to the next level is a travesty to. I mean, this isn’t the guy that decided to play mind games with the Undertaker by putting his hands no only on Taker’s Wife, but on her stomach and the womb of the unborn child of the Deadman in side to piss him off and get him off his game. No, this wasn’t’ the same Brock Lesnar that completely isolated the Broken Arm of the Undertaker and destroyed it more in the Hell in the Cell. No, this wasn’t the same Brock Lesnar that intentionally got himself disqualified in an Iron Man match against Kurt Angle to cause damage, only to pick up two pinfalls at a time. Yup, sounds like a very dumb wrestler to me. The guy knew exactly how to get into the heads of his opponents, and that’s why he won so much.
Brock Lesnar was a great worker, and it’s the people that want to tell you that a wrestler isn’t good if he uses a suplex that is wrong. Brock Lesnar has been called, confident, cocky, unappreciative all of this, in this one thread. Congratulations, you’ve been worked by Brock Lesnar. So exactly how is a young mid 20’s wrestler that goes into the business, dominates everyone, and becomes champion supposed to act. Owe, cowardly, that’s correct I forgot. It seems that if you’re not a cowardly heel, then you don’t play a good heel. Brock Lesnar played the character he was asked to play perfectly, and you’ve all bought into it, hook, line and sinker. You think he’s a cocky asshole, good, you’re supposed to think he’s a cocky asshole. Obviously though he doesn’t know how to work, because using suplexes means he’s catering towards smarks, when in reality the suplexes wear down the entire torso of the opponent to set up for his finisher the F-5, but we’ll ignore that little factoid and just say he was an inferior worker even though there is no evidence to support that.
People simply hate Brock Lesnar because he left the business, nothing more, nothing less. He excelled at something that we all love, but decided in the long run, it wasn’t for him, so he left. So what happens, the people that watch and support him get pissed off, and decide to hijack the biggest pay per view of the year to get into the head of Brock Lesnar. Hurray Garden crowd, be proud of yourselves on that one. The fact of the matter is this, Brock Lesnar busted his ass for the time he wrestled for the WWE, and people loved to watch him. When he made a decision to risk it all, the guaranteed money, the push, the life so he could do something else in with his life, it all change.
Wrestling fans have an air of self righteousness about themselves. If a wrestler leaves the business prematurely, then he’s a no good bastard. The Rock left to pursue something else, he’s an asshole. A Wrestler leaves a small promotion to do what’s best for his family and make more money elsewhere, he’s a sell out. Give me a break. Brock Lesnar left the business because he wanted more, and in turn has become just a big of a name in sports as the WWE in the long run. It was a great risk, and it happened to be a great reward in the end.
Brock Lesnar wanted to come back in 2005 and give back to the business. He wanted a one time deal to have a match with Batista at Summerslam 2005 to put Batista over solidly as champion. The meeting went as far as a face to face in titan towers in 2005, before eventually negotiations fell apart. So to say he out right abandoned the company is a falsehood, considering the company let him out of his contract, and was willing to bring him back in 2005.
Brock Lesnar will not lose a Kayfabe match to Jushin Thunder Liger:
No way, no how does Jushin Thunder Liger match up with Brock Lesnar at all in a wrestling ring, with no rules. Lesnar is stronger, Lesnar is just as quick, Lesnar has just as much cardio training, and Lesnar is flat out meaner.
For all the weaknesses that Brock supposedly has, no one has been able to give one shred of proof as to how Liger would exploit it. Brock Lesnar’s big losses include a loss to Eddie Guerrero, after Bill Goldberg not only interfered before the match, but during the match. So effectively it took a 2 on 1 situation there to beat Lesnar. Brock lesnar lost a Wrestlemania match to Bill Goldberg, all the while feuding with the referee the week before hand, so really another 2 on 1 environment. Brock Lesnar lost to the Big Show, via a steal chair shot and a Choke slam. All well and good and perfectly legal in this environment, however, do you honestly believe Liger can swing a chair, and then hit a high impact move on Lesnar to keep him down, didn’t think so. And finally, Kurt Angle, making Lesnar tap to the ankle lock. Nothing wrong with that. You know for as an inferior worker that Anti-Lesnar Camp claims that Kurt Angle is, it was only two years prior to this that he made Steve Austin tap out to the Ankle Lock. Steve Austin, Tap, Ankle Lock, so you tell me how bad of a loss the match with Kurt Angle was.
When you cut away all of the crap, all of the BS in this thread the only valid arguments for Liger at this point have been, Strikes with Kicks (oh wait, he can’t use those since Martial Arts has nothing to do with Pro Wrestling…
and roll up. Pretty much when the basis of an argument and why a wrestler wins a kayfabe match comes down to kicking and roll up, the choice is obvious, Brock lesnar demolishes Liger in this match. Liger’s finishing maneuvers are a glorified Face Buster, and the Liger Bomb. Now, if you want to believe that Brock Lesnar is going to stay down to a power bomb from a 200 pound, 5’7” man, that’s all on you, my money is on Brock.It comes down to this. If you wanted to vote for Liger, but sly convinced you otherwise because you would be a mark, so what. You know, I like the feeling for the first time I saw Brock Lesnar destroy both Hardy Boys. I liked the feeling of seeing a guy pick up men like Mark Henry and Rikishi on his shoulders, with ease. I liked standing in awe as I watched Brock Lesnar choke the blood out of Hulk Hogan and rub it on his body as a badge of honor. I liked marking out to Brock Lesnar becoming the youngest WWE Champion in history. I liked Marking out to watching Brock Lesnar destroys the Undertaker in a Hell in the Cell match and stand atop the Cell and gloat. I liked Marking out as Brock Lesnar lifted the Big Show on his shoulders and proceeded to give him an F-5. I liked marking out as I watched in horror as Lesnar missed a shooting star which would have killed most men, and then have the where with it all to still beat Kurt Angle. I liked Marking out to Brock Lesnar superplexing the Big Show and collapsing the ring on Smackdown. I liked Marking out to watching Brock Lesnar play the Smarky Madison Square Garden crowd at Wrestlemania 20.
You know what, I’m a mark, and damn proud of it, and my Marky ass is voting for a guy that wins this match with ease, Brock Lesnar. Don’t let the name calling detour you from voting for who you want. Don’t let Sly work you like you’ve been supposedly worked to believe that Brock Lesnar was good. You don’t supposedly stay in the main event for two years unless you are good, and Lesnar was good, and better then Liger.
Brock Lesnar is the single biggest reason why the percentage of my friends who watch wrestling went from around 85% to around 1%, and that is no exaggeration. I genuinely believe that the correlation between Lesnar's push and the ratings dying on their arse is related. These are the facts, but you can choose to read them however you wanted.
Up until Lesnar's debut, Raw drew high 4 ratings consistently, by the time he left the brand 4 months later, they had fallen by a full point to being mid 3s. Possibly not his fault, but the guy was getting the biggest push at the time, undoubtedly. He was then drafted to Smackdown and became champion. The ratings initially dropped a little, but once Lesnar became unquestionably the number one guy, they dropped further.
That's two correlations that lead me to believe that he wasn't a draw. I can't prove it though, so draw your own conclusions.
I don't know a lot about Liger, but the more I learn, the more I'm impressed. Lesnar wasn't ever really over with the fans to the level the WWE wanted to be, and more importantly, he is the reason why I stopped watching WWE programming for several years. Until now, I havent had a reason to vote against him, but here I do.
While I could never put it as eloquently as some of the big Liger fans, I can say this, Jushin Liger could and should beat Brock Lesnar in a regular wrestling match, and that's where my vote is going.
Up until Lesnar's debut, Raw drew high 4 ratings consistently, by the time he left the brand 4 months later, they had fallen by a full point to being mid 3s. Possibly not his fault, but the guy was getting the biggest push at the time, undoubtedly. He was then drafted to Smackdown and became champion. The ratings initially dropped a little, but once Lesnar became unquestionably the number one guy, they dropped further.
That's two correlations that lead me to believe that he wasn't a draw. I can't prove it though, so draw your own conclusions.
I don't know a lot about Liger, but the more I learn, the more I'm impressed. Lesnar wasn't ever really over with the fans to the level the WWE wanted to be, and more importantly, he is the reason why I stopped watching WWE programming for several years. Until now, I havent had a reason to vote against him, but here I do.
While I could never put it as eloquently as some of the big Liger fans, I can say this, Jushin Liger could and should beat Brock Lesnar in a regular wrestling match, and that's where my vote is going.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Okay, here is goes. Shocky just made what could be the post of the year, and here is his co-admin ready to banter back.
Here's the thing - almost every one of Shocky's points - the ones he used to refute the Anti-Lesnar camp with - are just awesome. I agree with almost every point.
AND
LOTS of guys got their shot because of a needle. Lesnar came to the game with credentials already in place due to his amateur wrestling background. Yes, Sly claims amateur wrestling has fuck-all to do with professional wrestling. He couldn't be more wrong.
In fact, a solid amateur wrestling background does wonders for a professional wrestler, because it makes that person more believable to a crowd and to a viewer. Kurt angle showed up with some steam because he was a legit athlete. Before ever watching him wrestle I knew Mark Henry came to the table with impressive olymipc powerlifting stats. Now, a strong amateur background does not instantly translate into success (see: Charlie Haas, Shelton Benjamin) but it can't hurt.
Another thing you need to realize about Brock's background, size, and physique is the work ethic required to accomplish all of that. Even before the guy climbs in the ring, you can say to yourself "holy shit, this guy's a hard worker, we can take that at face value."
LOTS of guys were not "draws" but were still excellent professional wrestlers. Maybe they weren't the greatest of all time, maybe they weren't as "successful" as Hogan and Austin, but I won't discard names like Sting, Hart, and Michaels because of this statistic alone.
I firmly believe that "drawing power" deals more with fringe fans. For the people who vote in this tournament, we're hardcore fans. We watch not because of who's on top - we watch because it's professional wrestling, and that's just what we do.
And I'll admit, when Lesnar was wrestling - I watched a hell of a lot more intently than I do now. And I'm voting. The people who were only drawn by Hogan and Austin? Nowhere to be found.
This is where Shocky's argument moves more towards (Ctrl-V) smoke and mirrors. To say that, based on the experience argument, Jim Duggan should defeat John Cena or Brooklyn Brawler should defeat the Ultimate Warrior is silly redirection, similar to what he's accusing people of in the same thread.
All that the experience argument states is that a guy who wrestled for 20 years has this advantage over someone who spent 2 years in the ring. Hell, I am 27 years old, and I've been playing racquetball for 3 years now. I am very strong and in great shape - but I get my ass handed to me by 70-year-olds. Why? They're weaker, smaller, slower...but they've been playing for 30+ years. They seem to know what I am going to do before even I do. They know the bounces before they happen. They adjust and adapt.
I also think it's natural for fans to be upset with Lesnar for the way he went out. He went out in a very classless, selfish manner. Nobody would have given a shit about him in UFC at first if not for his WWE background. The guy is 2-1, and all of those matches were HUGE draws because he already had name recognition. Who gave thim that recognition? Pro wrestling, and he spit on all of us.
In the end, though I love the Devil's Advocate role, I've been a Lesnar fan actually since his amateur college days. But this discussion has been AWESOME.
Besides, don't we all want to see IC25 vs Shocky in a Vader vs Lesnar match-up?
Here's the thing - almost every one of Shocky's points - the ones he used to refute the Anti-Lesnar camp with - are just awesome. I agree with almost every point.
AND
LOTS of guys got their shot because of a needle. Lesnar came to the game with credentials already in place due to his amateur wrestling background. Yes, Sly claims amateur wrestling has fuck-all to do with professional wrestling. He couldn't be more wrong.
In fact, a solid amateur wrestling background does wonders for a professional wrestler, because it makes that person more believable to a crowd and to a viewer. Kurt angle showed up with some steam because he was a legit athlete. Before ever watching him wrestle I knew Mark Henry came to the table with impressive olymipc powerlifting stats. Now, a strong amateur background does not instantly translate into success (see: Charlie Haas, Shelton Benjamin) but it can't hurt.
Another thing you need to realize about Brock's background, size, and physique is the work ethic required to accomplish all of that. Even before the guy climbs in the ring, you can say to yourself "holy shit, this guy's a hard worker, we can take that at face value."
LOTS of guys were not "draws" but were still excellent professional wrestlers. Maybe they weren't the greatest of all time, maybe they weren't as "successful" as Hogan and Austin, but I won't discard names like Sting, Hart, and Michaels because of this statistic alone.
I firmly believe that "drawing power" deals more with fringe fans. For the people who vote in this tournament, we're hardcore fans. We watch not because of who's on top - we watch because it's professional wrestling, and that's just what we do.
And I'll admit, when Lesnar was wrestling - I watched a hell of a lot more intently than I do now. And I'm voting. The people who were only drawn by Hogan and Austin? Nowhere to be found.
This is where Shocky's argument moves more towards (Ctrl-V) smoke and mirrors. To say that, based on the experience argument, Jim Duggan should defeat John Cena or Brooklyn Brawler should defeat the Ultimate Warrior is silly redirection, similar to what he's accusing people of in the same thread.
All that the experience argument states is that a guy who wrestled for 20 years has this advantage over someone who spent 2 years in the ring. Hell, I am 27 years old, and I've been playing racquetball for 3 years now. I am very strong and in great shape - but I get my ass handed to me by 70-year-olds. Why? They're weaker, smaller, slower...but they've been playing for 30+ years. They seem to know what I am going to do before even I do. They know the bounces before they happen. They adjust and adapt.
I also think it's natural for fans to be upset with Lesnar for the way he went out. He went out in a very classless, selfish manner. Nobody would have given a shit about him in UFC at first if not for his WWE background. The guy is 2-1, and all of those matches were HUGE draws because he already had name recognition. Who gave thim that recognition? Pro wrestling, and he spit on all of us.
In the end, though I love the Devil's Advocate role, I've been a Lesnar fan actually since his amateur college days. But this discussion has been AWESOME.
Besides, don't we all want to see IC25 vs Shocky in a Vader vs Lesnar match-up?
Between Ligerbomb's post, and this one, my vote for Liger is secured. It will be one hell of a fight, but I could see Liger getting the win in ECW. He's the type of guy that ECW used in the beginning to get their footing, before the blood and violence took over. Heyman would've given him big time matches, and the fans would've loved him.
Lesnar would be just the kind of person that failed in ECW. There was a few times where Heyman would bring in "the next big thing", and they would fall flat on their face. While Johnny Storm isn't in the same sport as Lesnar, he was brought in by Heyman to be the next big thing after Taz. He was supposed to be pushed to the moon, and hold every title, and carry ECW to the promised land. He lasted about 2 months, and was booed out of the building. He was quickly jobbing to guys like Nunzio and Spike, and then left to go home...
Wouldn't the winner here face the Edge v. Steamboat winner first?
EDIT: Apparently, pushing the down arrow to scroll through the page, before clicking "submit", can change your vote...Damn...Doesn't look like it'll matter anyway
On the matters of Kayfabe
Kayfabe is to treat wrestling as if the stories angles and events are "real". Sounds great, but the only problem is that at the end of the day wrestling is still booked as a worked series of events to elicit a specific desired outcome that falls in line with the story you want to sell. What that means is that in the "real" world of Kayfabe Land you can perpetually have a broken arm like Cowboy Bob Orton, you can confess murder by burning your parents alive like the Undertaker and suffer no legal repercussions, eat rats in a boiler room whilst pulling out your hair and then get gainful employment in the WWF like Mankind, hunt vampires like Edge, be a vampire like Gangrel, jump off the Titan-tron to your "death" like Road Warrior Hawk, rise from your grave time and time again like the Undertaker etc etc etc. Point is, Kayfabe isn't believing wrestling is real; Rather, it's the suspension of your utter disbelieve so as to enjoy the product produced. But Kayfabe is also the land of fairly tales, where upon a friend's tragic passing you muster up your courage, strength, and abilities to succeed and go farther then ever before by slaying giants and winning the gold a la Rey Misterio Jr., It's where once unstoppable monsters learn to speak and grow to have a heart only to be twisted into something different entirely like the un masked Kane, it's where the smaller irresistible force conquers the larger immovable object at Wrestlemania III, where Taz can dominate in ECW against much larger foes, where a Pretty Boy named Floyd can topple a really Big Show. Clearly Kayfabe allows things that you think couldn't happen, that you think shouldn't happen, that you think are the most impossible, to become real. Well, not real real... but "real". Kayfabe is where David often beats Goliath because it's the better story, the one that will sell tickets, put butts in seats, and the one that no one believes can happen yet secretly wants to see. Monsters are the insurrmountable odds that are only there to eventually be overcome and test the hero's resovle. And throughout human history we've held on to our hopes and we write stories that lay the monster low, slays the dragon, topples the giant. Kayfabe is belief in story telling no matter how impossible you believe the tale seems to be. Kayfabe is where a Thunderous Jushin Liger can slay a Green Monster like Brock Lesnar.
Kayfabe is to treat wrestling as if the stories angles and events are "real". Sounds great, but the only problem is that at the end of the day wrestling is still booked as a worked series of events to elicit a specific desired outcome that falls in line with the story you want to sell. What that means is that in the "real" world of Kayfabe Land you can perpetually have a broken arm like Cowboy Bob Orton, you can confess murder by burning your parents alive like the Undertaker and suffer no legal repercussions, eat rats in a boiler room whilst pulling out your hair and then get gainful employment in the WWF like Mankind, hunt vampires like Edge, be a vampire like Gangrel, jump off the Titan-tron to your "death" like Road Warrior Hawk, rise from your grave time and time again like the Undertaker etc etc etc. Point is, Kayfabe isn't believing wrestling is real; Rather, it's the suspension of your utter disbelieve so as to enjoy the product produced. But Kayfabe is also the land of fairly tales, where upon a friend's tragic passing you muster up your courage, strength, and abilities to succeed and go farther then ever before by slaying giants and winning the gold a la Rey Misterio Jr., It's where once unstoppable monsters learn to speak and grow to have a heart only to be twisted into something different entirely like the un masked Kane, it's where the smaller irresistible force conquers the larger immovable object at Wrestlemania III, where Taz can dominate in ECW against much larger foes, where a Pretty Boy named Floyd can topple a really Big Show. Clearly Kayfabe allows things that you think couldn't happen, that you think shouldn't happen, that you think are the most impossible, to become real. Well, not real real... but "real". Kayfabe is where David often beats Goliath because it's the better story, the one that will sell tickets, put butts in seats, and the one that no one believes can happen yet secretly wants to see. Monsters are the insurrmountable odds that are only there to eventually be overcome and test the hero's resovle. And throughout human history we've held on to our hopes and we write stories that lay the monster low, slays the dragon, topples the giant. Kayfabe is belief in story telling no matter how impossible you believe the tale seems to be. Kayfabe is where a Thunderous Jushin Liger can slay a Green Monster like Brock Lesnar.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
To anyone who has taken issue with my playing both sides of the fence in this match-up, I have 6 words for you that a lot of people will have to get used to hearing from me.
Kindly blow it out your ass.
I've played both sides to see how much debate I can get out of people. Face turn, heel turn, flip-flopping, etc. Call it what you want to. I researched Liger and then turned around and took his side, and according to NSL, made a pretty valliant effort. Then, I turned around and backed Lesnar. Do you know why? It's a challenge to research two men and then back both of them in the same debate. Do you know how much I've learned about these guys because of this thread?
Maybe my next post will be pro-Liger, just to put people off further...
The end result is that both of these men have a TREMENDOUS upside in this tournament, and both men are looking to advance further than they have in the past, with Liger becoming the amazing story of this year's tournament. But anyone who is upset because I jumped sides for a little fun, well, I couldn't give two shits.
Kindly blow it out your ass.
I've played both sides to see how much debate I can get out of people. Face turn, heel turn, flip-flopping, etc. Call it what you want to. I researched Liger and then turned around and took his side, and according to NSL, made a pretty valliant effort. Then, I turned around and backed Lesnar. Do you know why? It's a challenge to research two men and then back both of them in the same debate. Do you know how much I've learned about these guys because of this thread?
Maybe my next post will be pro-Liger, just to put people off further...
The end result is that both of these men have a TREMENDOUS upside in this tournament, and both men are looking to advance further than they have in the past, with Liger becoming the amazing story of this year's tournament. But anyone who is upset because I jumped sides for a little fun, well, I couldn't give two shits.
I thought I disarmed your Liger argument pretty well. People who are voting for Liger on a kayfabe basis (and gee, at least they're doing it in kayfabe) are largely justifying it to themselves by thinking that hey, Liger could win. And yes, he could. It's just more likely Lesnar will, and that's why you should vote for him.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Supporters of Liger in this thread have shown you that him beating Lesnar is possible, yes, as he has the physical tools necessary to do so. But, we have also outlined a strategy that we are confident Liger would adopt and we have shown that that strategy would probably earn Liger a victory. So, yes, we would be wrong if we conflated possibility with probability here. But, we haven't, as we knocked Liger's victory up a notch from possible to probable with our arguments.
To all of Liger's supporters: Well, we've fought the good fight here guys, but nothing short of a miracle will get Liger out of this deficit. Be confident and proud that you voted for the right man, and remember, there's always next year.
I've observed this thread for long enough. I must now stand for what is right and show you all why Liger is the best option. Let's take a look at the three qualities that make a wrestler great: ring attire, haircut, and name.
Ring attire is not a close competition here. Lesnar dons simple black trunks, which is overplayed and frankly generic. Liger, on the other hand, has a brilliant costume. It reminds me of the Power Rangers (in a good way). It's that easy, and from that conclusion we can deduce that Liger has the power of Zordon on his side while Lesnar has only his everyman stature.
Hair cut is the only place that Brock wins, and that is only because Liger wears a mask. If he didn't, Lesnar would have no chance. Brock's haircut make is that of a douche. Who asks the barber to do that? I'm tempted to give this to Liger sheerly based bad Brocks hair is.
Finally we have the last, most important factor: it is the name. Brock's name is mediocre at best.
Breakdown:
Brock --> Rock
Lesnar --> Less
According to his name he is a small rock. What can't rocks do? That's right, rocks can't kick out of a pin. Liger is more than capable of pinning a rock, as we see in his name breakdown.
Analysis:
Jushin --> Just
Liger --> Tiger
Now we have to routes to take for Liger's name. We can either take it as 'just a tiger' which can still easily beat a rock, or we can take it as 'a just tiger' which wins hands down every time. "Why?" you ask. A just tiger would have to have sentience to truly become "just", so a Brock would have to deal with a sentient tiger. That is a frightening prospect to say the least.
The only choice you are left with is to vote for Liger. Happy voting!
P.S.- Jushin is ambiguous and can also be analyzed as 'Joshi', which would further support Liger's win.
Ring attire is not a close competition here. Lesnar dons simple black trunks, which is overplayed and frankly generic. Liger, on the other hand, has a brilliant costume. It reminds me of the Power Rangers (in a good way). It's that easy, and from that conclusion we can deduce that Liger has the power of Zordon on his side while Lesnar has only his everyman stature.
Hair cut is the only place that Brock wins, and that is only because Liger wears a mask. If he didn't, Lesnar would have no chance. Brock's haircut make is that of a douche. Who asks the barber to do that? I'm tempted to give this to Liger sheerly based bad Brocks hair is.
Finally we have the last, most important factor: it is the name. Brock's name is mediocre at best.
Breakdown:
Brock --> Rock
Lesnar --> Less
According to his name he is a small rock. What can't rocks do? That's right, rocks can't kick out of a pin. Liger is more than capable of pinning a rock, as we see in his name breakdown.
Analysis:
Jushin --> Just
Liger --> Tiger
Now we have to routes to take for Liger's name. We can either take it as 'just a tiger' which can still easily beat a rock, or we can take it as 'a just tiger' which wins hands down every time. "Why?" you ask. A just tiger would have to have sentience to truly become "just", so a Brock would have to deal with a sentient tiger. That is a frightening prospect to say the least.
The only choice you are left with is to vote for Liger. Happy voting!
P.S.- Jushin is ambiguous and can also be analyzed as 'Joshi', which would further support Liger's win.
You're correct, Lesnar takes it easily.
Lesnar's attire is his perfect body itself. In fact, I'm sure he would wrestle naked if he was allowed.
Nothing involving the Power Rangers can be good.
Zordon is overrated, he was only booked to win battles by some Japanese guys.
Brock's perfect hair beats anyone, regardless of a mask. Liger is probably a balding freak, hence the mask.
It is the hair cut of a champion. Just the other day I went to by barber with a picture of Brock Lesnar and asked him to cut my hair exactly like his.
You've completely twisted the facts and misinterpreted the name. You have to take is one step further.
Brock --> Rock --> Rocky
Lesnar --> Less --> Balboa
You may ask how "Less" translates to "Rocky", but as most language professors know, this translation occurs frequently in the Indo-European language tree. I expected better research out of you Murfish.
Once again, you have misinterpreted the facts. In fact, the true translation is
Jushin --> Just --> Rust
Liger --> Tiger --> Tigger
Now, the creates a completely one sided match up for Brock. Rocky Balboa against a rusty, stuttering cartoon character? Tigger always played second fiddle to Pooh anyway, while Rocky was a dominant champion with a successful movie franchise. He would knock the fucker out in second.
Vote Rocky Balboa
Well, you might have but - as we all know - all Liger's supporters aren't quite as good as you, my Renegade Angel friend. I still don't buy the "strong style" argument you proposed. It's a good argument, but I think it's flawed. Lesnar has demonstrated incredible endurance, along with remarkable ring smarts and technical skill. More than enough to prevent him being worn down and submitted (is that the correct form of the verb? I think it is) by the Japanese legend.
I'm almost pleased to see that the hardcore environment hasn't factored in at all, really. I am guilty of milking it for a soundbite, however.
I'm actually surprised that Liger hasn't drawn more votes. However, I think Lesnar has crossed the margin that makes it all but impossible for Liger to claw it back at this stage. On the whole, the Liger supporters have done a lot when they were given so little. Shit, you got the man past one of the winners of this tournament in Shawn Michaels. That is a massive, massive achievement.
I call smoke and mirrors.
If his body was perfect, where is his neck? And since when has a wrestler's body had anything to do with greatness? His attire was lame.
Maybe if you're a villain(I'm not referring to village dwellers here).
Oh, and there's this...
[youtube]K0KOfTV1dbc[/youtube]
He was a floating head, a floating fucking head. Later we see that he's a head attached to a bag, but the fact remains that he put himself over and was legitimate bad ass in his heyday.
And balding freak is > than Brock Lesnar's 'I'm a utilitarian douche' cut.
If your barber had any good sense, he would have kicked you out of his store.
And Hulk Hogan had the haircut of a champion, you oaf (Hulk Hogan support by Murfish coming soon).
I'm more concerned about how Less translates to Balboa, but ok. I'll admit that I simplified my charts for the sake of some of our uneducated posters. The real charts use both Proto-Indo-European and can even be traced back to the 'click' languages of ancient Africa.
Brock --> Rock --> Rocky-->Rockina-->'click-clack-snap-click-click'= impotent sea urchin
Lesnar --> Less --> Balboa-->Bella-->'snap-clack-snap-click-clack'=handsome
I'll concede that Brock Lesnar actually means handsome, impotent sea urchin.
Might I ask where your local truant officer is? You're slipshod translations tell me that you should probably spend less time on your facebook.
Jushin --> Just --> Rust-->Nail-->Vail-->Vill-->Village-->Town
Liger --> Tiger --> Tigger-->Pooh-->Bear-->Panda-->China
See? The movie Chinatown, thought it isn't a tangible object, wins against an impotent sea urchin every day of the g-damn week.
Vote for Chinatown.
WrestlingAuthority90
Occasional Pre-Show
Sorry bro, saying Liger should win because he looks like a power ranger is just ridiculous. Brock Lesnar would tear Jushin Liger's power ranger ass apart in no time. If an overweight slob like Samoa Joe can defeat Liger, so can Lesnar. Lesnar is HUGE, RIPPED, and a trained REAL SHOOT FIGHTER. All those things basically mean that Liger would be a dead man. Jushin Liger is one of the greatest Japanese wrestlers of all time. But that doesnt mean shit when you're facing a beast like Lesnar.
Shit Murfish, you got me. There is no possible way that I can respond to that post, except with this.
In all seriousness, it has been a great run for Liger in this tourney. tdigle and LigerBomb have done a great job getting him these far, but they ran into Lesnar, who seems to be an unstoppable force in this tourney. There's always next year.
In all seriousness, it has been a great run for Liger in this tourney. tdigle and LigerBomb have done a great job getting him these far, but they ran into Lesnar, who seems to be an unstoppable force in this tourney. There's always next year.
I guess you didn't read my post. It's so much more than just looking like a power ranger.
Shit Murfish, you got me. There is no possible way that I can respond to that post, except with this.
In all seriousness, it has been a great run for Liger in this tourney. tdigle and LigerBomb have done a great job getting him these far, but they ran into Lesnar, who seems to be an unstoppable force in this tourney. There's always next year.
It was a good fight, GD. I also appreciate the work that people put into Luger. I really thought he was going to be this year's Vader, but it just didn't work out.
Good luck to everyone and keep an eye out for my Hogan post in the next round.
Unless the tourney suddenly gets swept up in Liger revelry the like of which have never been seen before ,it's with a fair degree of certainty that I concede a defeat, of sorts. In regards to the somewhat lopsided outcome, oddly enough, I'm surprised and yet... not, and all at once to boot. I should think its clear to all but perhaps the most ocularly challenged few that this match up mostly began and ended with the obvious disparity of size between both competitors. What little bit of argument was left was largely brushed aside by the opposition's continued citation of Brock's staged meteoric rise. Brock's two year dalliance with WWE resulted in a lasting legacy akin to a proverbial drop in the Pro Wrestling bucket. However, since his departure from the sport, said meteoric rise has mutated into an ever living shrine to Kayfabed greatness and accomplishment with such virulent proficiency that swine flu should take notes as to how to reach such vaunted Pan-Demic status as quickly. Kayfabe being the ****ty ****e she is has seduced many a poster to believe in her tarted up false realities and illogical logics to the point that only the most chaste of men could see through the perfumed commotion and stumble upon the somewhat sticky floor of truth left behind. That truth of course being that Kaybe herself is the unreal made "real"; a sort of Dan Brown Angles and Demons-esque Antimatter touching Matter conundrum that explodes common sense from the inside out upon impact leaving one to not so much scratch their head in confusion, but rather treat the gaping head wound in an attempt to prevent blood loss induced death. Kayfabe isn't real... hell, "reality" isn't real. WWE offered up the tainted goods and some of us even bought it, or at least shrugged our shoulders and went along for the ride. Who knows, I'm one to flip a good flop on occasion and can often cover up past transgressions by claiming learned hypocrisy. However in the case of Brock Lesnar the Pro Wrestler I wasn't even given the chance to reel in my past character assassinations let alone change them to glowing praise. The next big thing wasn't even around long enough for me to fully compare it with the last big thing or even the current big thing in any meaningful and thoughtful way. Anyway, it has been wonderful to see others who may have approached these matches with little to no background of the Thunderous Beast God Jushin Liger come away with a new found appreciation and respect for the man the myth and the character. I wish I could leave this match with Liger's hand held high, all the while anticipating his next bout. But I guess what I can do is leave you all with the views of this round's champion in regards to his perception on the sport that we all apparantly believe him to be so great at and vital to:
You get so brainwashed. Youre on the road 300 days a year, and thats why guys get so messed up. This life just becomes a part of them. Its not real, but some guys who are still in the business think it is. You look at Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler - he just couldnt let it go. You live a double life. I was tired of trying to be who I was in the ring and then coming home for two days to be normal. They didnt allow you to be. The guys who get out are the smart ones, really and truly. -Brock Lesnar on Pro Wrestling
You get so brainwashed. Youre on the road 300 days a year, and thats why guys get so messed up. This life just becomes a part of them. Its not real, but some guys who are still in the business think it is. You look at Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler - he just couldnt let it go. You live a double life. I was tired of trying to be who I was in the ring and then coming home for two days to be normal. They didnt allow you to be. The guys who get out are the smart ones, really and truly. -Brock Lesnar on Pro Wrestling
The alternative to being Brock Lesnar is being Randy "The Ram" Robinson. The man is right - the smart ones are the ones who get out. Him and The Rock are now more successful than anybody who stuck around. Watching Scott Steiner or Ric Flair struggle to move or even breath is a sad, sad sight. Watching Brock Lesnar pulverise the world's greatest MMA fighters, on the other hand, is something glorious to behold.
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