ECW Regular Wrestling Match: Brock Lesnar vs. Jushin Thunder Liger

[Slyfox696]

Why? I like Brock Lesnar. He entertained me. It's no different than if John Cena was my favorite.

Who said otherwise?

Of course, at least John Cena is a good worker...

Please explain why.

Poor acting, poor on the stick, average in the ring=mediocre.

Lesnar was Samoa Joe with a better body.

Brock also hasn't had seven years to hone his skills. Give Brock five more years and he's better than Cena is.

Yes, but you CAN'T give him those 5 years, because he wasn't there for five years. Thus, you can only vote on the quality that he was when he left.

Good point.

Oh, I see. Triple H only wins about half of his matches? Please.

Not as champion you don't, but otherwise, yes. How many Wrestlemanias in a row did HHH lose?

He lost to the likes of Brian Pillman. That's dominance, right there.

Perhaps you misunderstood me...allow me to clarify:

* Dragon Gate

* Open the Dream Gate Championship (1 time)

* Michinoku Pro Wrestling / North Eastern Wrestling

* British Commonwealth Junior Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
* Super J Cup (2000)

* New Japan Pro Wrestling

* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship (11 times)
* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (5 times) – with The Great Sasuke (1), El Samurai (1), Minoru Tanaka, (1), Koji Kanemoto (1) and AKIRA (1)
* NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* NWA World Welterweight Championship (1 time)
* UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWF Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)1
* Best of the Super Juniors (1994, 2001)
* G1 Junior Tag League (2001) – with El Samurai
* J-Crown (1 time)
* Naeba Cup Tag Tournament (2001) – with Yuji Nagata
* Top of the Super Juniors (1992)
* Young Lion Cup (1986)

* Osaka Pro

* Osaka Pro Wrestling Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Takehiro Murahama

* Pro Wrestling Illustrated

* PWI ranked him #12 of the 500 best singles wrestlers during the "PWI Years" in 2003

* Pro Wrestling Noah

* GHC Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* World Championship Wrestling

* WCW Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* Wrestle Association R

* Super J Cup (1995)
* WAR International Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with El Samurai

* Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards

* 5 Star Match (1994) vs. The Great Sasuke on July 8
* Best Gimmick (1989)
* Best Flying Wrestler (1989–1993)
* Best Technical Wrestler (1989–1992)
* Best Wrestling Maneuver (1987, 1988) Shooting star press
* Match of the Year (1990) vs. Naoki Sano on January 31 in Osaka, Japan
* Most Outstanding Wrestler (1990–1992)
* Rookie of the Year (1984) tied with Tom Zenk
* Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 1999)

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Poor acting, poor on the stick, average in the ring=mediocre.

His mic skills were improving when he left. His acting was fine. Brock was good in the ring.

Lesnar was Samoa Joe with a better body.

And skill.

Yes, but you CAN'T give him those 5 years, because he wasn't there for five years. Thus, you can only vote on the quality that he was when he left.

You said he isn't as good as John Cena is now. He was better than Cena after two years and he'd be better than Cena after seven, if this had been his desired profession.

Not as champion you don't, but otherwise, yes. How many Wrestlemanias in a row did HHH lose?

He lost four WrestleMania matches in a row. Other than those, how many matches was he pinned in those four years? You don't lose half of your matches.

Perhaps you misunderstood me...allow me to clarify:

Too bad he cut never cut it in America where it matters.

 

[Uncle Sam]

A diagram:

Over

* Dragon Gate

* Open the Dream Gate Championship (1 time)

* Michinoku Pro Wrestling / North Eastern Wrestling

* British Commonwealth Junior Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
* Super J Cup (2000)

* New Japan Pro Wrestling

* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship (11 times)
* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (5 times) – with The Great Sasuke (1), El Samurai (1), Minoru Tanaka, (1), Koji Kanemoto (1) and AKIRA (1)
* NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* NWA World Welterweight Championship (1 time)
* UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWF Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)1
* Best of the Super Juniors (1994, 2001)
* G1 Junior Tag League (2001) – with El Samurai
* J-Crown (1 time)
* Naeba Cup Tag Tournament (2001) – with Yuji Nagata
* Top of the Super Juniors (1992)
* Young Lion Cup (1986)

* Osaka Pro

* Osaka Pro Wrestling Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Takehiro Murahama

* Pro Wrestling Illustrated

* PWI ranked him #12 of the 500 best singles wrestlers during the "PWI Years" in 2003

* Pro Wrestling Noah

* GHC Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* World Championship Wrestling

* WCW Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* Wrestle Association R

* Super J Cup (1995)
* WAR International Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with El Samurai

* Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards

* 5 Star Match (1994) vs. The Great Sasuke on July 8
* Best Gimmick (1989)
* Best Flying Wrestler (1989–1993)
* Best Technical Wrestler (1989–1992)
* Best Wrestling Maneuver (1987, 1988) Shooting star press
* Match of the Year (1990) vs. Naoki Sano on January 31 in Osaka, Japan
* Most Outstanding Wrestler (1990–1992)
* Rookie of the Year (1984) tied with Tom Zenk
* Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 1999)

People's heads.

It's nice to see you included the Wrestling Observer awards though, you having so heavily argued their validity over the years.

And if Brock is Samoa Joe with a better body, well, Joe beat Liger pretty neatly.

 

[Slyfox696]

His mic skills were improving when he left.

They still sucked.

His acting was fine.

It was wretched.

Brock was good in the ring.

Yes, when he was booked to dominate his opponent. Otherwise? Nope.

You said he isn't as good as John Cena is now.

Exactly. You can make up assumed quality.

Too bad he cut never cut it in America where it matters.

It wasn't that he couldn't cut it, it's he didn't wrestle here. Of course, when he did wrestle here, he won the WCW Light Heavyweight title.

It's nice to see you included the Wrestling Observer awards though, you having so heavily argued their validity over the years.

I just used his entire list of accomplishments, and I know that those awards are thought highly of by some people.

And if Brock is Samoa Joe with a better body, well, Joe beat Liger pretty neatly.

That's a kayfabe argument, and was done out of Liger's prime (over the age of 40).

I'm talking about actual quality of worker, and in Liger's prime, Lesnar couldn't touch him.

 

[jmt225]

It's amazing how many people have been completely worked by the WWE. You want to know what the difference between Umaga and Brock Lesnar is? Brock Lesnar left before the WWE made him lose. Everyone is saying Lesnar because he was BOOKED to win. If he had stayed for another 5 years, he would not have won as often, and he would have looked more human, and people would quit voting for him. You people have been completely worked by the WWE.

Lol... this is fucking HILARIOUS coming from someone who claims that Batista is one of the best wrestlers on the planet and that anyone who thinks different either doesn't understand what good wrestling is or was touched by their father as a kid.

Yet, fans of Brock Lesnar were the one's worked by WWE, eh?

And the reason why we were "worked" was because Brock Lesnar was BELIEVABLE like a good wrestler is supposed to be. That's what makes him one of the absolute best wrestlers WWE has had this decade. The guy was believable and everyone bought it. It wasn't because WWE booked him that way; it was because Brock knew how to play his fucking character. Plus, with his look and amateur background and the fact that he was so athletic and agile... you just knew this guy could kick some ass legitimately. And you know what? He's showing us to be right with his stint the UFC.

On what planet is Lesnar better or more versatile?

Planet Earth.

Liger has worked with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

And? So has Brock Lesnar.

He's put on great matches with many many wrestlers. He's won more titles than Lesnar has matches.

And within shorter than two years of working on the big stage, so did Brock Lesnar.

He's won Match of the Year honors, best gimmick honors, best TECHNICAL WRESTLER honors

Well look at Sly; using fucking Meltzers awards to win an argument. Hypocritical much? I'm pretty sure I've seen you bash Meltzer an uncountable amount of times.

And by the way, Lesnar won his fair share of awards from Meltzer as well. And I have to say it again... he did so with only being in the big stage for a year and a half.

as well as being a Hall of Famer.

If Brock Lesnar would've stayed in WWE he undoubtedly would've been a future of Hall of Famer. Hell, knowing WWE he'll probably make it there anyway.

And Lesnar also would've made Meltzer's HOF as well. And if Meltzer ever makes a MMA HOF and Lesnar continues down the path he's currently taking, then he will make that one.

Jushin Liger, along with Pillman, helped to popularize Cruiserweight wrestling in America, before there was even a Cruiserweight division.

Umm... what? Just because they had good matches doesn't mean that they "popularized Cruiserweight wrestling in America", because once those matches were done, you didn't see hardly any more Cruiserweight wrestlers in any company, unless you want to count the 123 Kid. It wasn't really until Heyman booked the Cruisers in ECW where it started to become popular in the states once Bischoff got his hands on those guys.

On what planet is Lesnar a better or more versatile wrestler than Jushin Liger?

Once again... on planet Earth.

Brock Lesnar was one of the most believable wrestlers the sport has ever seen, accomplished more than anyone ever has within a year span, and in the ring... he's ten times stronger, and on the same par athletically, which is unbelievable considering his size.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Shocky might say "vote how you want" and hell, so might I. However, this tournament is clearly meant to be judged in kayfabe. If not, there'd be no need to state what wrestler's primes were. There'd be no need to specify regions or the particular rules within regions. The gimmick rounds, such as this one, would be totally pointless. The posts Shocky put together specifying the changes in location and the people in charge of each region wouldn't fit in at all.

So, basically, voting kayfabe is the smart thing to do, and the smart thing to do is to vote Brock Lesnar.

 

[Slyfox696]

Lol... this is fucking HILARIOUS coming from someone who claims that Batista is one of the best wrestlers on the planet and that anyone who thinks different either doesn't understand what good wrestling is or was touched by their father as a kid.

Yet, fans of Brock Lesnar were the one's worked by WWE, eh?

Please show me a match that of Lesnar's that was as good as Batista vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania or Batista vs. Cena from Summerslam.

And the reason why we were "worked" was because Brock Lesnar was BELIEVABLE like a good wrestler is supposed to be.

He was a one dimensional wrestler.

Plus, with his look and amateur background and the fact that he was so athletic and agile... you just knew this guy could kick some ass legitimately. And you know what? He's showing us to be right with his stint the UFC.

I've said it numerous times...

amateur wrestling and professional wrestling have NOTHING to do with each other.

Planet Earth.

You need to come back to it if you think Lesnar can touch Liger in terms of wrestling ability.

And? So has Brock Lesnar.

Liger has worked WELL with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

There's your difference.

And within shorter than two years of working on the big stage, so did Brock Lesnar.

Like what? His match vs. Angle? It was the poorest drawing Wrestlemania since Wrestlemania 13. It was a piss bucket match, complete with a nice Lesnar botch at the end.

Well look at Sly; using fucking Meltzers awards to win an argument. Hypocritical much? I'm pretty sure I've seen you bash Meltzer an uncountable amount of times.

Fine then, fuck Meltzer.

Liger still has put on Match of the Year bouts, and was still the best aerial wrestler and technical wrestler. Forget what Meltzer says, just watch wrestling and you can tell that.

If Brock Lesnar would've stayed in WWE he undoubtedly would've been a future of Hall of Famer.

And in 1990, most people probably would have thought Ultimate Warrior would have been too.

People throw the term "flash in the pan" around all the time for Warrior, but at least Warrior put on some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. Lesnar didn't even do that.

Umm... what? Just because they had good matches doesn't mean that they "popularized Cruiserweight wrestling in America", because once those matches were done, you didn't see hardly any more Cruiserweight wrestlers in any company

Sure they did. They were the ones that got that style of wrestling popular in America, which WCW continued to use with guys like Benoit, 2 Cold, Pillman, etc.

On no level can ANYONE say that Lesnar was even close in ability to Jushin Liger.

 

[Miko]

Unsure of who to vote for in this one.

Never cared much about Brock Lesnar, actually it wasnt long after he debuted that me (and many others I believe) switched off and stopped watching for a couple of years. In fact, I've always thought of him as Warrior-lite. Making Batista Warrior-lite-lite. I am sure people will talk about Lesnars moveset and agility but I didnt care, it didnt entertain me.

Anyway, it would appear that kayfabe dominance got thrown out of the window when Ultimate Warrior lost to Mick Foley, you've all convinced me that even the Ultimate one could be put down for 2 falls in one match, as a result, who's to say that Liger, who is better than Foley couldnt beat Lesnar, who is worse than Warrior. Liger after all, has beaten some of the best.

Although, I wouldnt mind Lesnar going through so we have somebody with enough support to remove Vader later on.

I'll have to ponder on this one.

 

[Slyfox696]

Anyway, it would appear that kayfabe dominance got thrown out of the window when Ultimate Warrior lost to Mick Foley, you've all convinced me that even the Ultimate one could be put down for 2 falls in one match, as a result, who's to say that Liger, who is better than Foley couldnt beat Lesnar, who is worse than Warrior. Liger after all, has beaten some of the best.

Kayfabe only matters to these people when they can't justify quality of their favorite wrestler to advance. Like, in this case, since everyone knows Liger is the superior worker, they use the "kayfabe" argument.

And they want to call me hypocritical.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Shocky might say "vote how you want" and hell, so might I. However, this tournament is clearly meant to be judged in kayfabe. If not, there'd be no need to state what wrestler's primes were. There'd be no need to specify regions or the particular rules within regions. The gimmick rounds, such as this one, would be totally pointless. The posts Shocky put together specifying the changes in location and the people in charge of each region wouldn't fit in at all.

So, basically, voting kayfabe is the smart thing to do, and the smart thing to do is to vote Brock Lesnar.

I'm just going to go ahead and quote this for emphasis. Of course, I'll have to rabbit on so this isn't considered spam. What will I talk about? No idea. Did anyone see UFC 98 last night? I watched the start of it and got bored. Roll on UFC 100, I say. You know who's fighting then? Brock Lesnar. Coincidentally, I think you should vote Brock Lesnar. Fo' sho'.

 

[Mr. TM]

Well I have been swayed so far. Lot more Lesnar love in here, but I have always felt uneasy for voting for him. Lesnar may have been dominant, but he was dominant in a time when WWE was dying down. Santina Marella is 6-1 in her career, proving that records mean little (Oh no, I just took Santina down a notch) But the way Sly put it, comparing Brock Lesnar to Umaga should really put it home. Umaga was unstoppable, Brock was unstoppable, until of course, their momentum was used to push someone else. That is a common occurrence in the WWE. Who is to say that right now, if Brock had stayed in the WWE, that he would not become John Cena's whooping boy, just like he would have been to Stone Cold if Austin could wrestle.

 

[Mr. TM]

I'm just going to go ahead and quote this for emphasis. Of course, I'll have to rabbit on so this isn't considered spam. What will I talk about? No idea. Did anyone see UFC 98 last night? I watched the start of it and got bored. Roll on UFC 100, I say. You know who's fighting then? Brock Lesnar. Coincidentally, I think you should vote Brock Lesnar. Fo' sho'.

One thought that I have had during all of this is Brock Lesnar's massive support seems to tie in with his recent success in MMA. I don't like to use MMA or any non professional wrestling base as support for any talent. I do think that Brock is getting crutched by his MMA dominance, just like Angle could have used his Olympic success.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Please show me a match that of Lesnar's that was as good as Batista vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania or Batista vs. Cena from Summerslam.

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I've said it numerous times...

amateur wrestling and professional wrestling have NOTHING to do with each other.

Kurt Angle's entire career has been centered around the fact that he is an Olympic gold medalist.

Liger has worked WELL with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

There's your difference.

No. The difference is that Brock Lesnar beat them.

Like what? His match vs. Angle? It was the poorest drawing Wrestlemania since Wrestlemania 13. It was a piss bucket match, complete with a nice Lesnar botch at the end.

I'd like to see John Cena do a shooting star press. Brock Lesnar just underestimated the distance.

Fine then, fuck Meltzer.

Liger still has put on Match of the Year bouts, and was still the best aerial wrestler and technical wrestler. Forget what Meltzer says, just watch wrestling and you can tell that.

I thought wrestling was about telling a story in the ring, not fancy flips, Sly.

Oh, and..

Amateur wrestling:
Big Ten Conference:
Big Ten Conference Championship (1999, 2000)
Ranked the #1 Heavyweight in the Big Ten Conference (2000)

National Collegiate Athletic Association:
NCAA Division I runner–up (1999)
NCAA Division I Championship (2000)
North Dakota State University's annual Bison tournament
Heavyweight Championship (1997–1999)
National Junior College Athletic Association
NJCAA All–American (1997, 1998)
Junior College National Championship (1998)

Professional wrestling:

New Japan Pro Wrestling:
IWGP Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
Inoki Genome Federation
IWGP Third Belt Championship (1 time)

Ohio Valley Wrestling:
OVW Southern Tag Team Championship (3 times) – with Shelton Benjamin

Pro Wrestling Illustrated:
PWI Feud of the Year award in 2003 vs. Kurt Angle
PWI Match of the Year award in 2003 vs. Kurt Angle – a 60 minute Iron Man match on SmackDown!, September 16
PWI Most Improved Wrestler of the Year award in 2002
PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 2002
PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2003

World Wrestling Entertainment:
WWE Championship (3 times)
King of the Ring (2002)
Royal Rumble (2003)

Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards:
Best Brawler (2003)[104]
Best Wrestling Maneuver (2002) F–5
Feud of the Year (2003) vs. Kurt Angle
Most Improved Wrestler (2002, 2003)

Mixed Martial Arts:

Ultimate Fighting Championship
UFC Heavyweight Championship (1 time, current)
Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
Best Box Office Draw (2008)
MMA Most Valuable Fighter (2008)

And in 1990, most people probably would have thought Ultimate Warrior would have been too.

He would have been if he wasn't crazy in the head.

People throw the term "flash in the pan" around all the time for Warrior, but at least Warrior put on some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. Lesnar didn't even do that.

I've never called Warrior that.

Sure they did. They were the ones that got that style of wrestling popular in America, which WCW continued to use with guys like Benoit, 2 Cold, Pillman, etc.

Because people like Pillman and 2 Cold Scorpio are so important to wrestling.

On no level can ANYONE say that Lesnar was even close in ability to Jushin Liger.

They'd be stupid if they did. He was far above Liger.

 

[Uncle Sam]

1) Umaga never won the Royal Rumble, was never King of the Ring and was definitely not a 3 time WWE Champion.
2) Umaga had already been in the WWE, as part of 3 Minute Warning. Lesnar genuinely was dominant from his debut.
3) He wouldn't have become John Cena's whooping boy for two, uh, sub-reasons:
i) John Cena was Lesnar's whooping boy.
ii) John Cena never has had a whooping boy. It's why people always complain, remember?

So, really, the Umaga comparison is flawed at best, and you should be voting kayfabe for reasons I have already outlined.

 

[justinsayne]

Now take Justin for example. He's just completed the world's longest and hardest to read run-on sentence - if he decided that he wanted to take this accomplishment to a different forum, I'd lose a measure of respect for him.

I never claimed to be the greatest poster ever, or even to have good grammer, and I have checked out other forums, the ones I've seen are run like shit

Anyway, I don't compare Lesnar to The Rock. Rock wrestled for several years, Brock for 2. TWO YEARS. Liger dominated his peers for over a decade on several continents. When Rock walked away, he did so pretty quietly until people started asking him questions. Brock flipped the fans in MSG off.

Brock tried to leave quietly, but word got out, and as for flipping off the fans, Brock was the fucking heel in that match what the fuck was he suppose to do?!?, it was all part of the fucking show, not to mention something Austin has been doing for over a fucking decade now, yet you don't seem to have a problem when he does that

Think about that. In his last match, because the fans knew about it, he thanked them with a hearty middle finger. "You all spent money to see me for the last two years? Well guess what, I'm leaving, and while I'm at it, fuck you all." Ridiculous.

Yeah it's called kayfabe, it was part of the show, that assholes at MSG taunted him so he threw a finger up, big fucking deal, it's not like the guy jump into the crowd and dropped his trunck and started shitting on the fans, for fuck sake, as PYT seems to love ot say, you're grasping at straws

No he didn't. If he wrestled till his contract was up then why did he sign another contract upon leaving stating that he wouldn't wrestle for another American based promotion? It's why there was a lawsuit between Lesnar & WWE. The lawsuit is also a partial reason why Lesnar didn't return to WWE after he didn't make it as an American Footballer.

Even so, he still wins the match.

Yeah, my mistake, I was always under the impression his contract was about to expire

 

[jmt225]

Please show me a match that of Lesnar's that was as good as Batista vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania or Batista vs. Cena from Summerslam.

Brock Lesnar vs. The Rock. And I would bet that most wrestling fans would agree, if they seen it.

He was a one dimensional wrestler.

How so?

I've said it numerous times...

amateur wrestling and professional wrestling have NOTHING to do with each other.

I know, but the fact remains that Lesnar's amateur wrestling background gave him credibility with the fans. In today's World, having a great wrestling or MMA background is going to make you more believable in the fan's eyes then a 'monster' character like Umaga. That was my point.

Liger has worked WELL with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

And so has Brock Lesnar. Lesnar has had great matches against 'Taker, Show, Angle, Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, ect. In that list you have a SHW in Show, a couple of Heavies, and a Cruiseweight in Guerrero.

Like what? His match vs. Angle? It was the poorest drawing Wrestlemania since Wrestlemania 13. It was a piss bucket match, complete with a nice Lesnar botch at the end.

I thought the match was pretty good myself. Not great like it could've been, but not bad either.

And also, you can't blame the drawing of 'Mania 19 on Lesnar. Hogan vs. McMahon and Austin vs. Rock were the real headlines of the show.

Fine then, fuck Meltzer.

Now there's the Sly we all know and love.

Liger still has put on Match of the Year bouts, and was still the best aerial wrestler and technical wrestler. Forget what Meltzer says, just watch wrestling and you can tell that.

It's funny how you praise a match between Liger and one of the biggest "spot-monkeys" of all time in The Great Sasuke.

And what technical wrestlers were even around back then? Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask were both gone by that point. It's not like Liger won these awards against tough competition. And the same case goes with the aerial argument as well. The only real competition there was Owen Hart and Brian Pillman. And you'll notice, when superior technical and aerial wrestlers like Chris Benoit and Rey Mysterio came along... Liger wasn't to be heard from.

And in 1990, most people probably would have thought Ultimate Warrior would have been too.

True, but look at what he did after that to burn bridges. Even with the lawsuit and all that nonsense... I'm pretty sure Brock is still on good terms with the company.

People throw the term "flash in the pan" around all the time for Warrior, but at least Warrior put on some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. Lesnar didn't even do that.

Yes he did. His match against The Rock was awesome, man, and one of the greatest WWE Title matches of all time. And his HITC match against Benoit was spectacular, too.

Sure they did. They were the ones that got that style of wrestling popular in America, which WCW continued to use with guys like Benoit, 2 Cold, Pillman, etc.

But it was ECW and then Bischoff who PUSHED those guys, not put them in dark matches and matches that didn't receive any recognition.

On no level can ANYONE say that Lesnar was even close in ability to Jushin Liger.

That's just false. The only thing Liger has over Lesnar is longevity and that's it.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

There are two things that I would like to point out.

1) It is possible for men of Liger's size to beat men of Lesnar's size. I was a little bit worried about the way Liger has been booked throughout his career, but then I remembered that this is in America, and in ECW to boot, where anything can happen. Kayfabe, Liger has a lot he can work with. Let's take a look at a match Brock Lesnar had with Rey Mysterio, Jr., which took place on Smackdown! (someone can help me with date, I know it was in 2002):

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Of course, this match ended in a DQ (or a no contest), but, more than anything, I want to touch on Mysterio's strategy here. Undoubtedly, Lesnar is as strong as an ox, and quite fast for his size. However, one of his biggest faults, as seen in this match, is that he's not very perceptive. He'll always be on the attack, but he never thinks of all the possible outcomes of his actions. For example, from 2:30 to about 2:55, Lesnar hunts for Mysterio, Jr., around the ring. Towards the end, Mysterio, Jr., ducks behind the steel stairs, and Lesnar just automatically assumes that Mysterio, Jr., is hiding behind the stairs. But, wait, wouldn't a more wary opponent consider whether or not Mysterio, Jr., may have slipped under the apron? Furthermore, wouldn't a more calculating wrestler want to consider how his opponent will think, and thus react accordingly?

In Liger, Lesnar will face someone who is a tad slower than Mysterio, Jr. But, he will be facing someone who has more endurance, more strength, who is an extremely dangerous striker, and who is a hell of a lot smarter. Liger can pick men of Lesnar's size up, I think the matches that myself and LigerBomb have referenced show that. But, Liger would never be stupid enough to go toe-to-toe with Lesnar from the start. He may have a small pissing contest with Lesnar early in the match to lure him into a false sense of security, but that would only be so Liger can get him on the mat to work on his legs.

2) Lesnar screwed NJPW over more than he did WWE. David vs. Goliath stories are extremely rare, yes. But, when they do occur, it is because the man who represents the David of the fight has impeccable character and an unconquerable desire to win. Liger has been a company man for NJPW for almost all of his career. Furthermore, he has come back from a badly broken leg and a brain tumor to not only wrestle, but to wrestle at the same extraordinary level he was wrestling at before his misfortunes (albeit in a different style). So, what does Lesnar's treatment of NJPW do for Liger? It only gives him that much more motivation to save face for a company that I am almost certain he'd die for.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

There are two things that I would like to point out.

1) It is possible for men of Liger's size to beat men of Lesnar's size. I was a little bit worried about the way Liger has been booked throughout his career, but then I remembered that this is in America, and in ECW to boot, where anything can happen. Kayfabe, Liger has a lot he can work with. Let's take a look at a match Brock Lesnar had with Rey Mysterio, Jr., which took place on Smackdown! (someone can help me with date, I know it was in 2002):

[youtube]oFcTApkuIiw[/youtube]​

Of course, this match ended in a DQ (or a no contest), but, more than anything, I want to touch on Mysterio's strategy here. Undoubtedly, Lesnar is as strong as an ox, and quite fast for his size. However, one of his biggest faults, as seen in this match, is that he's not very perceptive. He'll always be on the attack, but he never thinks of all the possible outcomes of his actions. For example, from 2:30 to about 2:55, Lesnar hunts for Mysterio, Jr., around the ring. Towards the end, Mysterio, Jr., ducks behind the steel stairs, and Lesnar just automatically assumes that Mysterio, Jr., is hiding behind the stairs. But, wait, wouldn't a more wary opponent consider whether or not Mysterio, Jr., may have slipped under the apron? Furthermore, wouldn't a more calculating wrestler want to consider how his opponent will think, and thus react accordingly?

What that showed me is that Lesnar is smart. Instead of just rushing around like Batista might have done, he kicked the steps over, something that would have severely hurt Mysterio if he was hiding there. Sure, Brock got caught, but it did absolutely nothing to him. He popped right up, then caught Mysterio and used him to beat up the ring post.

In Liger, Lesnar will face someone who is a tad slower than Mysterio, Jr. But, he will be facing someone who has more endurance, more strength, who is an extremely dangerous striker, and who is a hell of a lot smarter. Liger can pick men of Lesnar's size up, I think the matches that myself and LigerBomb have referenced show that. But, Liger would never be stupid enough to go toe-to-toe with Lesnar from the start. He may have a small pissing contest with Lesnar early in the match to lure him into a false sense of security, but that would only be so Liger can get him on the mat to work on his legs.

Liger would be stupid to go hand to hand with Lesnar or try and pick him up. If Lesnar gets a hold of him, he's going to break him, simple as.

2) Lesnar screwed NJPW over more than he did WWE. David vs. Goliath stories are extremely rare, yes. But, when they do occur, it is because the man who represents the David of the fight has impeccable character and an unconquerable desire to win. Liger has been a company man for NJPW for almost all of his career. Furthermore, he has come back from a badly broken leg and a brain tumor to not only wrestle, but to wrestle at the same extraordinary level he was wrestling at before his misfortunes (albeit in a different style). So, what does Lesnar's treatment of NJPW do for Liger? It only gives him that much more motivation to save face for a company that I am almost certain he'd die for.

If he's not careful and he lets his emotions take control here, he might piss Brock Lesnar off and he might just kill Liger.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

What that showed me is that Lesnar is smart. Instead of just rushing around like Batista might have done, he kicked the steps over, something that would have severely hurt Mysterio if he was hiding there. Sure, Brock got caught, but it did absolutely nothing to him. He popped right up, then caught Mysterio and used him to beat up the ring post.

No, this shows that Lesnar likes to take chances. Not only can Liger get under the ring just like Mysterio, Jr., but, had he had the same opportunity as Mysterio, Jr., he would have done a lot more harm to Lesnar.

What you say could possibly have been true though, I won't deny that. Maybe, because of the size difference between him and Mysterio, Jr., Lesnar felt that he could take risks that he otherwise could not have taken. But, unfortunately for you, Lesnar employed this same strategy in almost every match he had in WWE.

Liger would be stupid to go hand to hand with Lesnar or try and pick him up. If Lesnar gets a hold of him, he's going to break him, simple as.

Liger could pick up Lesnar, and he would do so only after he had disposed of him properly, something that you have yet to show that he couldn't do (nice try though, trying to take what I said out of context). Also, it's not as if Liger needs to pick up Lesnar to beat him. He has so many other strategies at his disposal.

If he's not careful and he lets his emotions take control here, he might piss Brock Lesnar off and he might just kill Liger.

Liger has always maintained his cool in the ring. It wouldn't be any different here. Thus, there's no possibility of this scenario ever playing out. The only way that you could ever refute my statement is if you were able to show that a significant desire to avenge always precluded one from actually doing so. Good luck trying to do that.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

No, this shows that Lesnar likes to take chances. Not only can Liger get under the ring just like Mysterio, Jr., but, had he had the same opportunity as Mysterio, Jr., he would have done a lot more harm to Lesnar.

Like what, exactly? What can Liger do that would have done significant damage to Lesnar in that situation?

What you say could possibly have been true though, I won't deny that. Maybe, because of the size difference between him and Mysterio, Jr., Lesnar felt that he could take risks that he otherwise could not have taken. But, unfortunately for you, Lesnar employed this same strategy in almost every match he had in WWE.

Didn't you watch him slow down and discuss his strategy with Heyman? He took the time to examine the situation and he did the smartest thing. He kicked over the stairs. Would it have been smarter for him to get on his knees and pull the ring curtain up? No.

Liger could pick up Lesnar, and he would do so only after he had disposed of him properly, something that you have yet to show that he couldn't do (nice try though, trying to take what I said out of context). Also, it's not as if Liger needs to pick up Lesnar to beat him. He has so many other strategies at his disposal.

You've yet to prove that he can. You say that Liger has all these strategies to dispose of Lesnar, yet you haven't actually mentioned any. You know what strategy Lesnar is going to employ against Liger? He's going to beat him into the canvas.

Liger has always maintained his cool in the ring. It wouldn't be any different here. Thus, there's no possibility of this scenario ever playing out. The only way that you could ever refute my statement is if you were able to show that a significant desire to avenge always precluded one from actually doing so. Good luck trying to do that.

Then why does his wanting to save face for NJPW mean anything in this match? If he's going to do as he always does, then nothing happens.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Like what, exactly? What can Liger do that would have done significant damage to Lesnar in that situation?

How about his shotei (palm heel thrusts)? How about his kicks? Oh, right, I forgot, he's smaller than Brock Lesnar, so obviously those can't do any damage to him. I'm about twice the size of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. I guess that means I can go in the ring with him, huh?

Didn't you watch him slow down and discuss his strategy with Heyman? He took the time to examine the situation and he did the smartest thing. He kicked over the stairs. Would it have been smarter for him to get on his knees and pull the ring curtain up? No.

Nice try trying to act as if there are only two options. How about going into the ring and waiting for the ten count? Or, just standing back parallel to the ring so that you can get a good look on both sides of you? These would be smart strategies, but none that Brock Lesnar would employ, because maiming and going on the offensive are the only things he knows. Furthermore, why the hell would you ever want to consult with someone who bankrupted a veritable cash cow?

You've yet to prove that he can. You say that Liger has all these strategies to dispose of Lesnar, yet you haven't actually mentioned any. You know what strategy Lesnar is going to employ against Liger? He's going to beat him into the canvas.

This is laughable, man. Have you not read any of the posts that I have made for Liger throughout this Tournament? Feigning ignorance here straight-up doesn't work, as both LigerBomb and I have already discussed Liger's strategies. But, here, I'll mention two of them for you right now:

Here's his match with Samoa Joe at Bound For Glory (23 October 2005):

[youtube]WS28nerTDS8[/youtube]​

Check out what happens between 3:00 and 3:31. Obviously, Samoa Joe is a hell of a lot stronger than Jushin Liger, and it shows in this series of shoulder blocks that they do here. But, what does Liger do? He lulls Joe into a false sense of security, as I already mentioned, and asks Joe to go to the ropes to initiate a shoulder block. Joe, thinking that it's going to be easy for him, gladly honors Liger's request. But, what happens? Liger ducks the block and takes Joe down with a toehold trip his next time around. So, from this, we know that Liger is more than capable of getting big men on the mat.

Here's a match he had Keiji Mutoh sometime earlier this decade (if anyone can give me the exact date, I'd appreciate it):

[youtube]0dGBhjF-iiY[/youtube]​

Liger begins to work Mutoh's left leg all throughout this match at 5:06. How did Liger find the opening to work on Mutoh's leg? By lulling him into a false sense of security by pretending that he wanted to get into a battle of strength with him (although, oddly enough, Liger is probably just as strong as Mutoh, although Japanese booking would have you believe otherwise). Furthermore, look at the moonsault Liger does at 12:25. That's not poor aim; rather, that's a man dedicated to his strategy of taking out Mutoh's left leg. He would be just as tenacious with Lesnar.

So, there you go. I've given you some proof. So, why don't you start talking about your man Lesnar, instead of talking shit about a wrestler you obviously know nothing about? Because, I can tell you right now, you aren't doing any favors for him with this talk about how he'll just pummel Liger into the mat.

Then why does his wanting to save face for NJPW mean anything in this match? If he's going to do as he always does, then nothing happens.

What the hell are you talking about here? The only thing that's going to remain constant with Liger is his ability to keep his cool in matches; he'll always switch things up, and tailor his strategies to the weaknesses of his opponents. I fail to see how this cancels out his ability to be more motivated to win.

 

[justinsayne]

How about his shotei (palm heel thrusts)? How about his kicks? Oh, right, I forgot, he's smaller than Brock Lesnar, so obviously those can't do any damage to him.

Well RVD tried a similer strategy lets see how it worked out for him...

[youtube]-OFqlsX7QbI[/youtube]

Hmm well look at that he loss, Liger can try all the kciks and palm heel thrusts he wants, at the end of the day they won't do a danm thing, I'll give Liger credit is a great wrestler, and this match would be a lot more competitive then most people think, but I just can't see anyway in which he beats Lesnar much less beats Lesnar in an environment like ECW where anything goes, Liger is going up against a guy who in one year took out RVD, Rock, Hogan, Undertaker, Big Show, and Kurt Angle, Lesnar has faced pretty much every type of wrestler out there, whether they by high flyers, technical, power, you name it, he's taken them on and beaten them, I'm sorry but nothing short of a miracle is going to keep Lesnar from winning this match

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Well RVD tried a similer strategy lets see how it worked out for him...

[youtube]-OFqlsX7QbI[/youtube]

Hmm well look at that he loss, Liger can try all the kciks and palm heel thrusts he wants, at the end of the day they won't do a danm thing, I'll give Liger credit is a great wrestler, and this match would be a lot more competitive then most people think, but I just can't see anyway in which he beats Lesnar much less beats Lesnar in an environment like ECW where anything goes, Liger is going up against a guy who in one year took out RVD, Rock, Hogan, Undertaker, Big Show, and Kurt Angle, Lesnar has faced pretty much every type of wrestler out there, whether they by high flyers, technical, power, you name it, he's taken them on and beaten them, I'm sorry but nothing short of a miracle is going to keep Lesnar from winning this match

All this match does is prove that low kicks are quite effective in neutralizing Brock Lesnar. This was actually quite a good strategy on Van Dam's part.

What lost Van Dam the match? Well, at 3:04, he tries to jump on top of Lesnar's shoulders in one of the corners. Why the hell would you ever do that? Liger would be smart enough not to do something like that. He'd keep to the ground and only go to the ropes when Lesnar was down. You could make the argument that Lesnar would get up and take Liger off of the top rope, but I think Liger would be too fast in the execution of any rope work for Lesnar to be able to get up and be alert by the time Liger flies down upon him.

Things actually pick up for Van Dam again at the end, but, he worries too much about Paul Heyman on the outside and he decides to jump off the ropes onto a standing Lesnar, which is another big no-no. As I already stated, Liger wouldn't be dumb (or prideful) enough to get into a position where Lesnar could either catch-slam or catch-suplex him.

If anything, it seems that Van Dam lost this match for himself. Had he stuck to striking, he probably would have beaten Lesnar.

 

[Uncle Sam]

The words "straws", "at" and "clutching" come to mind; not necessarily in that order. The way you write, it's like you're being contrary for the sake of it. Sly's "don't vote kayfabe - for some reason - and hey, look at this collection of random letters with the word "championship" repeated over and over" strategy was smarter.

Had RVD carried on striking he'd have beaten Lesnar? Come on! Seriously? You can show matches where Lesnar's had moderate difficulty against little guys and even the one occasion where he was absolutely screwed out of victory, but the matter of fact is Liger has lost to a lot of bottom of the barrel American wrestlers, or at least been taken to the limit by them.

I'm sure if this were an actual match, the announcers would start talking about how Liger had "heart". It would be at that point that the viewer would realise that, oh shit, he's going to get destroyed.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

The words "straws", "at" and "clutching" come to mind; not necessarily in that order. The way you write, it's like you're being contrary for the sake of it. Sly's "don't vote kayfabe - for some reason - and hey, look at this collection of random letters with the word "championship" repeated over and over" strategy was smarter.

Had RVD carried on striking he'd have beaten Lesnar? Come on! Seriously? You can show matches where Lesnar's had moderate difficulty against little guys and even the one occasion where he was absolutely screwed out of victory, but the matter of fact is Liger has lost to a lot of bottom of the barrel American wrestlers, or at least been taken to the limit by them.

I'm sure if this were an actual match, the announcers would start talking about how Liger had "heart". It would be at that point that the viewer would realise that, oh shit, he's going to get destroyed.

Actually, I'm hardly clutching at straws. But, I wouldn't expect anything of substance from you, seeing as how your arguments hardly ever consist of anything more than a Horse Laugh, or an appeal to ridicule.

Moreover, there's nothing here really that says anything about why Brock Lesnar should go over Liger. So, I tell you that RVD could have beat Lesnar with strikes, and you say, "Come on!"? If this was a slap in the face to common sense like you seem to think it is, then I would have people jumping on me left and right. I'll give it some more time, but something tells me you're deluding yourself into thinking that what I have to say is absurd.

Didn't you tell me once that I should argue why Muta should go over Samoa Joe, and didn't I then proceed to show you a match that showed Muta not only beating someone of Joe's build and caliber, but also why he is one of the greatest heels in the history of professional wrestling?

I've stepped up to the plate numerous times here to make my case. And, I will continue to do so with Liger. But, if you want to go at it with me in here, please present an argument, rather than unjustified mockery disguised as an argument.