How about his shotei (palm heel thrusts)? How about his kicks? Oh, right, I forgot, he's smaller than Brock Lesnar, so obviously those can't do any damage to him. I'm about twice the size of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. I guess that means I can go in the ring with him, huh?
I was typing up a reply to this post, but I accidentally exited out of it. I'll try again.
Brock Lesnar can take chair shots, superkicks, and 175 pound men falling onto him from ten feet in the air and not blink an eye. I've seen Liger's palm thrust and I was impressed. The guy that Liger hit sold the heck out of it. Lesnar has a tendency to no-sell things. That isn't unprofessional; it's just the way he is. Brock Lesnar is tough. He doesn't stay down for things like palm thrusts.
As for kicks, RVD is a black-belt martial artist. His kicks are much more devastating than Liger's. I'm not going to discount Liger in any way, but he can't kick like a Rob Van Dam.
As for the Floyd Mayweather comparison, I was going to say that you're not a trained fighter.
Nice try trying to act as if there are only two options. How about going into the ring and waiting for the ten count? Or, just standing back parallel to the ring so that you can get a good look on both sides of you? These would be smart strategies, but none that Brock Lesnar would employ, because maiming and going on the offensive are the only things he knows. Furthermore, why the hell would you ever want to consult with someone who bankrupted a veritable cash cow?
Regardless of what he did, there was no consequence for his actions. Lesnar still, even though caught off guard, recovered and turned Mysterio into a baseball bat.
This is laughable, man. Have you not read any of the posts that I have made for Liger throughout this Tournament? Feigning ignorance here straight-up doesn't work, as both LigerBomb and I have already discussed Liger's strategies. But, here, I'll mention two of them for you right now:
Feigning ignorance does work. It makes you spend time re-posting the information, and if you don't, then there will be voters who will not see that information and vote Lesnar. Though, they should vote Lesnar anyway.
Here's his match with Samoa Joe at Bound For Glory (23 October 2005):
[youtube]WS28nerTDS8[/youtube]
Check out what happens between 3:00 and 3:31. Obviously, Samoa Joe is a hell of a lot stronger than Jushin Liger, and it shows in this series of shoulder blocks that they do here. But, what does Liger do? He lulls Joe into a false sense of security, as I already mentioned, and asks Joe to go to the ropes to initiate a shoulder block. Joe, thinking that it's going to be easy for him, gladly honors Liger's request. But, what happens? Liger ducks the block and takes Joe down with a toehold trip his next time around. So, from this, we know that Liger is more than capable of getting big men on the mat.
If you can make assumptions that Liger won't do this and Liger won't do that, then I can tell you that Lesnar won't be so kind as Samoa Joe. When Liger is yelling at Lesnar, Lesnar will punch him in the mouth. Of course, who's to say it gets to that point? I say that Lesnar doesn't bother with a shoulder block in the first place. I say that Lesnar catches Liger and suplexes him half-way across the ring.
But, for the sake of argument, say Liger trips Lesnar and gets him down. Lesnar is a former NCAA champion in wrestling, so he is very, very capable of wrestling on the mat. Before you say that we can't use his college background as an argument, I remember the announcers, on more than one occasion, bringing up his amateur career at the University of Minnesota. Liger cannot compete with Lesnar on the ground. He mat be well versed in mat wrestling, but Lesnar is stronger, larger, and more experienced on the ground.
Here's a match he had Keiji Mutoh sometime earlier this decade (if anyone can give me the exact date, I'd appreciate it):
[youtube]0dGBhjF-iiY[/youtube]
Liger begins to work Mutoh's left leg all throughout this match at 5:06. How did Liger find the opening to work on Mutoh's leg? By lulling him into a false sense of security by pretending that he wanted to get into a battle of strength with him (although, oddly enough, Liger is probably just as strong as Mutoh, although Japanese booking would have you believe otherwise). Furthermore, look at the moonsault Liger does at 12:25. That's not poor aim; rather, that's a man dedicated to his strategy of taking out Mutoh's left leg. He would be just as tenacious with Lesnar.
That's a good argument. I won't pretend that Lesnar isn't susceptible to getting his leg, or arm, or shoulder worked over. Every wrestler is, including Brock Lesnar and Jushin Liger.
So, there you go. I've given you some proof. So, why don't you start talking about your man Lesnar, instead of talking shit about a wrestler you obviously know nothing about? Because, I can tell you right now, you aren't doing any favors for him with this talk about how he'll just pummel Liger into the mat.
What more is there to say about Brock Lesnar? He's strong as an ox, quick as a cat, clever as a fox, and tough as steel and as dangerous as Al Capone with an AK-47.
What the hell are you talking about here? The only thing that's going to remain constant with Liger is his ability to keep his cool in matches; he'll always switch things up, and tailor his strategies to the weaknesses of his opponents. I fail to see how this cancels out his ability to be more motivated to win.
I took what you were saying in the wrong way. I apologize. I understand that Liger may have this huge desire to win, but heart only gets you so far. Matt Hardy had a never say die attitude but he never got past the mid-card with that.
All this match does is prove that low kicks are quite effective in neutralizing Brock Lesnar. This was actually quite a good strategy on Van Dam's part.
Again, these low kicks are from a martial artist. Liger is no such thing. I have no doubt in my mind that he is capable of kicking Lesnar in the leg, but it won't have the same effect.
What lost Van Dam the match? Well, at 3:04, he tries to jump on top of Lesnar's shoulders in one of the corners. Why the hell would you ever do that? Liger would be smart enough not to do something like that. He'd keep to the ground and only go to the ropes when Lesnar was down. You could make the argument that Lesnar would get up and take Liger off of the top rope, but I think Liger would be too fast in the execution of any rope work for Lesnar to be able to get up and be alert by the time Liger flies down upon him.
You talk as though Liger never makes a mistake in the ring, as though he is so much smarter than all his opponents, and that he is perfect in the execution of everything he does. Everyone makes mistakes in the ring, some more than others. The slightest mistake could be detrimental to Liger.
Things actually pick up for Van Dam again at the end, but, he worries too much about Paul Heyman on the outside and he decides to jump off the ropes onto a standing Lesnar, which is another big no-no. As I already stated, Liger wouldn't be dumb (or prideful) enough to get into a position where Lesnar could either catch-slam or catch-suplex him.
Paul Heyman was in Brock Lesnar's corner for much of his career. Heyman is also the head of E.C.W. He can do whatever he wants to help out Brock Lesnar here. If, and I mean
if, Brock Lesnar were in trouble, Heyman can pull the leg of the referee, hit Liger with a chair, begin refereeing himself, or do whatever really.
I don't want to use that argument, though. I believe that Lesnar can defeat Liger without any interference or help.
If anything, it seems that Van Dam lost this match for himself. Had he stuck to striking, he probably would have beaten Lesnar.
When has Rob Van Dam ever won a match by striking? He goes up top to finish off opponents. Whenever he tried that, Lesnar punished him for it.
I have a reason that Liger can win, and it has nothing to do with shitting on the business, John Cena, or anything like that.
Two things I see going against Lesnar in this match, inexperience and overconfidence.
Inexperience didn't stop him from defeating Rob Van Dam, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, John Cena, The Rock, Kurt Angle, The Big Show, and Jeff Hardy. Brock Lesnar is not inexperienced. Just becuase Liger has had a 20 year career does not mean he has this huge experience advantage over Lesnar. Brock Lesnar has faced and defeated the best wrestlers the W.W.E. has had to offer this decade.
Overconfidence may affect him some in this match, but if it does, I am confident that Lesnar can recover, if it were to hurt him in the match at all.
Like he has probably done for this whole tournament, Lesnar will go into this match assuming victory before it starts. Liger isn't an imposing figure to look at and Lesnar will think that he can destroy him just like he did Jeff Hardy, Elix Skipper and others. There is a problem though, Liger is a hell of a lot better than those guys.
Jeff Hardy is a former WWE heavyweight champion. Liger has never been a heavyweight champion in any promotion. He's been a large-ish fish in the cruiserweight pond. Then again, maybe he isn't that big a fish. He's lost to the likes of Brian Pillman and Juventud Guerrera.
The fact that Lesnar only wrestled for 2 years compared to Liger who wrestled 10 times as long is also a factor. Liger has seen almost every situation possible in his matches and has faced a wider variety of more diverse opponents than Lesnar.
But Lesnar has defeated better opponents than Jushin Liger and better than Jushin Liger has beaten. Brock Lesnar has been in Hell in a Cell, Ironman, Stretcher, Handicap, No DQ, Battle Royal, Triple Threat, and Biker Chain matches. He's defeated opponents of all shapes, sizes, styles, and colors. Brock Lesnar has seem plenty.
What is this all leading to in the end? Something that Liger could use to keep Lesnar down for 3 seconds, a roll up. Brock is sure to get cocky after throwing Liger around the ring for a little bit, and one false move could lead to a quick school boy and a win for Liger.
Show me one example of Brock Lesnar losing by roll-up.
Even if Liger is tired, the roll up will win it.
See: Above.
Jeff Hardy is comparable in size to Liger, but not speed. Liger is way faster than Jeff Hardy. I think a lot of people overestimate Hardy's speed, just because he jumps off of stuff doesn't make him fast. For a crusierweight, Jeff is actually kind of slow. Liger is way faster.
Even so, it shows that Lesnar can dominate someone the size of Liger. It's been said that he's had trouble with Light-Heavyweights. I beg to differ. The only match he lost to a Light-Heavyweight was due to a spear by Goldberg.
Wait...Liger is tired because he beat Batista and Shawn Michaels, but Lesnar isn't tired when beating a "top class competitor" and a former World Champion?
Magnum TA was a good wrestler. He had the talent and the look to be a world champion. Unfortunately, he was injured in a car accident that ended his career before he could get into the main event. Jeff Hardy is a good wrestler, but he wouldn't give Lesnar too much of a challenge. I'm just saying that Lesnar won't be unprepared.
Mark Henry was a lot stronger than the Undertaker, but that didn't stop Taker from winning at Wrestlemania.
Mark Henry is shit.
Lesnar has never been able to do this in any match, why would he suddenly be able to now?
What do you mean? He certainly stopped Rey Mysterio from executing his aerial moves. When Mysterio jumped off of something, Lesnar caught him and threw him.
You should vote for Liger. Most people here vote for Lesnar because Liger is from Japan, and because they are brainwashed into thinking that because Lesnar does well in UFC, he could beat one of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the business.
Most people vote for Liger because he is from Japan. Most people that vote against people like The Rock and Brock Lesnar is because they left the business and you're spiteful.
Don't be like them. Vote for quality over inexperience.
Brock Lesnar was the better professional wrestler. Vote Lesnar.
PYT-
1) Mark Henry isn't a jobber. He has main evented ppv's, he is a legit force as "The World's Strongest Man". I will give you that he is in no way even close to being as good as Lesnar, but your argument is once again flawed.
He hasn't ever been in the main event of a Pay Per View. He's been in the third match for the E.C.W. championship, but if you consider that the main event, then I shouldn't even bother to reply to this.
2) You completely missed the point of the "overconfident" post. Of course he wouldn't be trying to wrestle an aerial match. There is a long history in pro wrestling of big men who don't come out hard against smaller men. Even Brock, in his match against Eddie, wasn't overly dominant compared to his matches with larger, stronger opponents.
He was well on his way to winning that match, though, until Goldberg stuck his large nose into Brock Lesnar's business.
3) No, you cannot take his amateur background into account. If amateur skills had any relevance to the success of a pro wrestler, Charlie Haas would be a main eventer rather than an afterthought.
See: Kurt Angle.
4) I would say the Lesnar arguments are horrible. There have been few attempts to convince people that Lesnar is that good, it has just been counter attacks on why Liger isn't that good.
For a while, it was anti-Lesnar, not pro-Liger. The arguments that Liger should win because Lesnar left the company and flipped off the fans were horrible.
5) Calling someone a sheep because you haven't done a good job convincing them of your opinion is poor form.
He was convinced by a terrible argument.
[youtube]q2X8Jnu43[/youtube]
I dont know, did this video come up?
Anyway, this is RVD beating Brock Lesnar clean, during Brock Lesnars huge KOTR winning, Rock/Undertaker beating, Royal Rumble winning push, even Heyman knows he's beat, which is why he pulls the ref out of the ring. Then later on the only thing that stops Lesnar's face from becoming even more ugly is once again, Paul Heyman.
Basically, Lesnar is and always has been susceptable to talented smaller, quick guys, RVD had this match won despite making stupid mistakes throughout the entire thing. Jushin Liger doesnt make stupid mistakes and possesses the high-flying and striking skills of RVD, as well as a great technical game.
Still not sure which way to go, but I think it's an interesting case for Liger.
Did Lesnar lose that match? I don't know, as I can't see the video. I would spend more time on this post, but my laptop is dying and I want to address LigerBomb.
Why I will personally be voting Jushin Thunder Liger:
I didn't expect different.
- Kayfabe-wise I honestly believe Liger has a complete and unique enough set of tools to beat Brock Lesnar. I'm not naive enough to think he would/could beat him every time, but enough times that I feel my vote is justified.
- Along these lines I think the Hardcore environment definitely favors Liger as he has great experience in these matches and when working his Black Liger heel gimmick or his Kishin gimmick is more brutal, unforgiving, and takes it to the level he would need to to beat the green monster Brock Lesnar.
- Non-Kayfabe I respect what Jushin Liger has done for the business a lot more than what Lesnar has(n't) done for it.
- He's my favorite foreign/Japanese pro-wrestler and has been for more than fifteen years.
- Fan wise I have been vastly more entertained as a pro-wrestling fan by the Liger matches I've seen than the Lesnar matches I've seen. The few times I did enjoy Lesnar matches it's because he was being carried by the guy in the opposite corner. And yes I'm one of the "smarky" New Yorkers who boo'd and taunted both Goldberg and Lesnar live at Wrestlemania 20, and it was some of the most fun I've ever had at a wrestling show.
- See, we're already disagreeing. I don't think that Liger has the tools to beat Lesnar.
- Brock Lesnar, too, has experience. He's competed in Stretcher matches and in Hell in a Cell. I listed more above. Then again, I don't see why experience in hardcore matches matter. It's not hard to pick up a chair and swing it. I say that Brock Lesnar has the advantage in the hardcore department. He can take chair shots and keep on rolling.
- Non-kayfabe, I respect Lesnar for following his dream. He had the world handed to him in WWE, but he didn't love the business. I applaud him for taking a chance to do what he's always dreamed of doing. You can't hold that against him.
- Brock Lesnar is my favorite wrestler and has been since 2003.
- I never had the opportunity to see Lesnar live. I went to my first live show in 2005. But, whatever. That doesn't matter. His match with Goldberg is what I remember most from my first WrestleMania. I cried when he left... Hey! I was like, 11.
If this is to determine the best Pro Wrestler ever I'm giving my vote to the one who has done more for the business, is the better worker, personally entertained me more; who I've spent money/time on seeing live by driving to other states for, who I've bought numerous tapes and later DVDs of; and not the guy who bored me to tears, perpetually made me want to change the channel, and keep my wallet closed.
I can't say anything here. That's how you choose to vote and it's fine by me. I tend to vote kayfabe, although I've made a few exceptions for my favorite wrestlers thus far. In this case, my favorite wrestler would win in a match.
If I were to vote with my heart, I'd vote Brock. I like Lesnar better, I've spent money on his shirts and I even bought a UFC PPV to watch him. He's entertained me more. I'm opposite of you. Liger is the one that I'm not entertained me. I haven't gone out of my way to see the guy and I haven't spent money on him. He doesn't do anything for me.
Vote Lesnar.
