ECW San Antonio, Round 3, Match 1: #2 Shawn Michaels vs. 18. Jushin Liger

[LigerBomb]

Blah blah blah.

Really? really? That's what you lead your response with? Why should anyone even bother to hear what you have to say or side with your position?

Look, this is all Kayfabe.This is a match that has never happened, never will happen, so we have to base our decisions on what we know about the participants involved.

I'd like to think I know enough about Jushin Liger to do just that. I hope after this post you and many others will agree.

We can suppose all we like, which is all this is really. The fact that Liger lost to Brian Pillman when both were in their prime is a relevant factor for me.

First it's highly contentious to say either man was in their "prime". Perhaps a point could be made if you mean in physical health and relative lack of injury but certainly not in terms of career accomplishments/success; And with regards to Liger, his ability, technique/skill, power, and experience, has just gotten exponentially better as the years roll by. Sufficed to say Pillman hasn't.

Michaels is a wrestler that's been known for taking on wrestlers of all shapes, all sizes, all with different attributes to bring to the table and, one way or another, he holds victories over all of them.

[sarcasm]You're right, how silly of me, Michaels has never lost a match to anyone... ever... I question why we even have this tournament when clearly the trophy should already be in Michaels' display case [/sarcasm] no hyperbole please

Liger is great, I'll never say otherwise, but ALL of his greatest matches and accomplishments in his career have been against cruiserweights.

Where this true -and let me assure you it is not- Shawn Michaels is hardly a large man by any definition, so this would be a rather moot point. In his gassed up prime he could barely keep a lean 220 lbs. on his frame kayfabe be damned, and as you -or anyone with a functioning pair of eyes- can surely see the body which he returned with in the early 2000's is nowhere near the afore mentioned physical peak. Liger on the other hand, by your own admission, has never had a problem wrestling -and dominating- men of Shawn's ever fluctuating size.

Shawn's all around performance against all these various names is another factor that's part of my choice. He's proven that he can take on any type of opponent successfully and, simply put, Liger hasn't.

So basically you're saying:

1. HBK can beat a man of any size
2. Liger is a man of a specific size
3. Therefore HBK can beat Liger

First, that's absurd. On multiple levels. Secondly you love to ask the question What size men can Michaels defeat with the stock answer being either A. any size man or B. men bigger/stronger than Liger, yet you omit the equally important question of What size men can Liger defeat by which Shawn fits the answer rather well, even when inflated. You make the size of the man relevant and irrelevant at the same time, which makes little sense.
If Shawn can beat a man of any size, then Liger's size is of no consequence. Okay. Then you say Liger can only defeat Cruiserweights, and can not beat Heavyweights, so size -at least for Liger- still matters, and yet Shawn himself has commented that his maximum weight was about 220 lbs. and since his return it fluctuates between 190lbs. and 205 lbs.

"Now leaner than he's ever been --the 6'1", 41-year-old wrestled as heavy as 220 but now fluctuates anywhere between 190 and 205 pounds -- Michaels credits his hybrid cardio and resistance training workouts, to a clean diet of 4-5 meals per day, and a hearty supplement regimen that features everything from Vitamin C and whey protein to omega 3's and thermogenics for his resurgence."

Now, by WWF Light Heavyweight (which, though never recognized in the US due to WWE's love of restructuring history, is a belt has Liger won) and WWE Cruiserweight definitions (both >215lbs.) Shawn Michaels a WWE contracted wrestler is a Cruiserweight. Better yet, the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight category, which you erroneously claim is the only category Liger can succeed in, is 100 kg and under. Now if we employ some quick math, 100kg. becomes 220lbs., the maximum weight Michaels ever was.
So at no time has Michaels ever been heavy enough to give Liger any problem -and at 190lbs. would get smeared on the mat like jelly-, and Liger's size as you say, doesn't matter to Shawn. Clearly for our intents and purposes, as it relates to a match between Jushin "Thunder" Liger vs. Shawn Michaels, it's less than insignificant who weighs what, who can beat what Heavyweights, what weight divisions they wrestle(d) in, etc., etc., etc. Or should I say ...Blah, Blah, Blah...

As to the mention of strength, I wasn't the one that brought strength into the equation.

Apologies, you were just the one who said it had little significance.

This is a contest that wouldn't be decided by strength.

Well if it's not about strength, which Liger has more of. And it's clearly not about size, which apparently depends on Michaels eating a rather copious amount of food the day of the match; what is it based on? Technique? Liger trained around the world, has a history of amatuer wrestling, a vast martial arts knowledge, and is a better mat wrestler and highflyer. Experience? Liger is about the same age as Shawn, debuted the same year, and as you love to point out has plenty of experience besting men of Michaels' relative size/ability. Environment? Liger, especially as Kishin Liger, has and will tear down and ECW-esque environment.

Neither of these two are known for being physical powerhouses.

Perhaps Shawn isn't, but the Beast God is quite well known for literally tossing men twice his size all over the place. He has routinely LigerBombed men up to the size of Mitsuharu Misawa, who is close to 250lbs., and even walking Liger Bombed and rather rotund Samoa Joe who clocks in at around 290 pounds.

My intention was to point out that a statement of Liger being stronger than Michaels is baseless.

Please, see the above. Re-read it as many times as necessary, then by all means come back and say it's baseless.
By the By:
BASLESS [beys-lis]
–adjective
having no base; without substantiation; without foundation; groundless: a baseless claim.

Synonyms: bottomless, flimsy, foundationless, gratuitous, groundless, reasonless, unconfirmed, uncorroborated, unfounded, ungrounded, unjustifiable, unjustified, unsubstantiated, unsupported, untenable, unwarranted

I used Michaels' matches and wins over much more powerful wrestlers as a means of showing that even if Liger does have an advantage in power, which is something that's highly debatable, I simply don't see how it'll play much of a role.

I'm tired... I'm sure you can deduce the answer to this somewhere in this post. You can, can't you?
-Cheers

 

[LigerBomb]

On the topic of Liger supposedly not doing well against heavy weights I only have this to say:
In a 2004 interview Liger mused about wrestling in the states saying that he believed that he would have had great success. America has a certain air about it that allows all men, if hard working enough, the equal chance to succeed. The American Dream I guess you would say. No matter what the odds, as long as you work hard and are determined to never quit there is nothing that you can't achieve. Knowing how capable he is, and how hard he works he believes he could have done well wrestling for anyone in the USA and would have liked to stay in WCW for a few years and perhaps worked for the then WWF as well.
However he also notes that Japan is not America. They have certain and very specific ideas and rules as it pertains to customs, regulations, stature, positions of authority and honor etc. In Japan it would be shameful for Jr. Heavyweights to routinely best larger men. Weight categories allow both groups to find success. He spoke as if the loses in the ring were kayfabe/real and could bring shame and embarrassment.
I think it's rather clear why even though he was more than capable of going toe to toe and step for step with heavyweights of tremendous skill and ability he was ultimately booked to lose at the last moments of the match. And as highly self effacing and humble man he always did as he was told never asking for the glory or the victory. In his words you can tell there may be some small hint of regret that he was not able to work in America, -where weight and size are less of a determining factor for success- long term. He went on to conclude that even at 39 years of age (back in '04) he thinks he could still find great success wrestling for WWE and in America in general and he has a burning fire within to prove as much.

Now here comes the equally baseless comment regarding Michaels not being cut out for being a heavyweight in Japanese wrestling promotions if he'd ever gone there.

As you can hopefully see from the above had Michaels indeed began and remained in Japan throughout his career, his path may have very closely mirrored that of Jushin Liger's or other Jr. Heavyweights. As a gaijin perhaps he may even have done worse...

I didn't just make a comment about Michaels taking on big men, I made a comment about him taking on wrestlers of all shapes and all sizes and his success rate. The fact that Liger couldn't cut it as a heavyweight, regardless of whatever circumstances or excuses are thrown about, is also relevant to me.

I think you mean irrelevant, but if you did mean relevant I hope the above can provide you with the beginnings of an answer.

Liger is a fantastic cruiserweight, probably the best in the history of the entire worldwide cruiserweight division. But, the fact that he has almost exclusively been a cruiserweight for his entire career puts into question his capability as an overall performer.

That makes no sense:
1.Liger is "probably the best in the history of the entire worldwide cruiserweight division"
2. Liger is wrestling Shawn Michaels an admitted Cruiserweight
3.Therefore, due to him "almost exclusively [being] a cruiserweight for his entire career [you, put] into question his capability as an overall performer" in how it pertains to a match with a 190-220lbs. Michaels?
Again, that makes no sense. Apples and oranges my friend.

Now, all that being said and as I said earlier, a lot of what we're going by is assumption based on what we know about these participants. I know that Liger is basically lord and master of the Japanese cruiserweights,

Shawn is practically, and by some standards the end definition of Cruiserweight himself.

but his performance against any other type of wrestler has to be legitimately questioned.

Why? Liger's track record against bigger much larger men is of little to no consequence as he is not wrestling "any other type of wrestler" he's wrestling a 6'1" 190-205lbs. man who know some holds, and jumps off the ropes from time to time. That seems to be the type he has great experience with, no?

As for Shawn Michaels, we know that he's taken on opponents of all shapes, sizes, techniques, or lack of techniques and has performed very well against all of them. Based on that, and once again I'm just going by assumptions based on what I know about these two, I have to think that Michaels is the better all around performer.

Playing devils advocate; If you bowl, golf, and run exceptionally well, and I challenge you to a foot race, which you assume me to exclusively and overwhelmingly succeed in, why would your vast knowledge of bowling or golf help you beat me in a foot race? At best those other skills would be inconsequential. Being more myopic for a moment, say it is just races were talking about. And you're a great marathon, short distance and sprint runner, but I'm the "lord and master of Japanese sprinters" who challenges you to a sprint, could my exclusivity actually be an advantage? As a nationally accredited strength and performance coach I would have to say yes.
I never wasted time doing anything but training to be unbeatable in sprints but you trained as a jack of all trades. I hope your last match was a sprint because if it wasn't you've been training for the wrong race. It'll take your body quite a while -months- to acclimate to what my challenge is. If this is kayfabe/real competition, wrestling matches would be as sporadic as boxing matches where training time, volume, specificity, and programming can play a tremendous role. But as I said I'm just playing devil's advocate.

He's been in different situations, he's had to adapt to different types of wrestlers and styles and Liger hasn't.

Right, as you yourself say Liger is just really really good at beating people with only one size and style... Shawn's.

 

[Checkmate]

WOW... I so rarely post here, but am making an exception due to the huge amount of attention this thread is getting.

I've read just about every single post, and while I am very familiar with Shawn Michaels, I am only somewhat familiar with Liger. Thus, I youtube'd and wiki'd my heart out to find out more info, and was pleasently suprised with what I found. I don't like calling two kayfabe guys EQUALS, but this is pretty damn close, and would likely come down to mistakes and finishers. On this, I'd have to give it to HBK by a thread.

I don't really want to spark a huge debate here, as this is strictly opinion to fill a post. However, I could see this being perhaps one of the greatest 5 star classics of all time. The back and forth action would be incredible, with both men one-upping each other throughout the match. I'm not going into who is stronger and who is faster, because (as has been overstated) Shawn makes a career out of beating anyone of any size, and Liger could likely beat someone of Shawn's build.

At the same time, I'd take ECW's environment into account. Liger's style would likely play better to this environment, but again I don't see him having a major advantage. Shawn obviously can play a hardcore game as well, as evidenced by his 2002 match with HHH at Summerslam, his Elimination Chamber win, and his Hell in a Cell bloodbath with the Undertaker. Some will argue that last one due to Kane's interferance, but I'm just showing that he can play the game. Again, I'm not saying that Liger can't, but I'm giving a reason to factor out the environment.

Also, I don't feel that the San Antonio crowd would matter much either, as Shawn would flourish as a face or heel, and I feel Liger would definately do the same. Again, factored out.

So, I can see the match progressing as so many have before, with Liger going to finish HBK off, and Shawn coming back; setting up to tune up the band. Liger would then counter (obv) and hit a finisher, only for Shawn to kick out at 2. This sets up the bottom of the 9th, bases loaded, with 2 outs scenario where Shawn Michaels is known for pulling wins out of his butt. I see a series of counters into a Superkick from nowhere.

Again, not taking ANYTHING away from Liger. He is someone I plan to watch more of in the future, but I see Shawn taking this here (by a thread). Just my opinion on why I voted.

 

[Shocky]

Right now, I really don't know who to vote for at this point. Shawn Michaels is about as good of an American wrestler as it gets. He's a smaller guy, in terms of the WWE and it's size, yet he's managed to have tons and tons of success in that company. To me though, Shawn Michaels is not a main eventer, like his fans will tell you that he is. He's a big, well respected name, but liek the Undertaker, simply incapable of carrying a company and being a full time main eventer. If you want to argue that point, then I'll gladly do it.

Liger on the other hand was a l ight heavyweight god in a country that pushed that type of wrestling. Unfortunately for us stateside, and with the WWE and it's shitty monopoly and misbooking of anyone under 225 lbs, we don't get to see this style of wrestling, and if the only wrestling you've watched is WWE, then you have a very narrow view point of what the Wrestling world offers.

Jushin Liger and HBK are similar size, but Liger made a career otu of competeing with guys of his same size, while Michaels wrestlers guys much larger then him for the majority of his career. I'm in a toss up right now. I honestly believe that Michaels would be able to compete ni Japan if they swapped careers, but could Liger have had the same success that Michaels has had?

 

[RVDgurl]

I would have paid good money to see this match take place in ECW. HBK and Liger are very evenly matched up in regard to skill, speed and strength. This would be a very long and very brtual match. In the end, HBK would probably sqeak out a victory. However, I think it greatly reduces his chances of moving on past the next round. A match of this magnitude would leave him exhausted and bruised.

Michaels pulls out a win, but moves onto to the next round in sorry shape

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

I think that this match is slightly irrelevant. The good news is, I think Shawn will win, and I gave him my vote.

The problem is why.

Shawn will win. I have no doubt. He will take a horrible shalacking and squeeze out a last minute Sweet Chin Music and take the victory, after lying face down for a good two minutes while his music plays before getting up.

The problem?

It means he's so blown, he's going to get wasted in the next round.

 

[Shocky]

I think that this match is slightly irrelevant. The good news is, I think Shawn will win, and I gave him my vote.

The problem is why.

Shawn will win. I have no doubt. He will take a horrible shalacking and squeeze out a last minute Sweet Chin Music and take the victory, after lying face down for a good two minutes while his music plays before getting up.

The problem?

It means he's so blown, he's going to get wasted in the next round.

I think that this is the best post of the thread so far, it really doesn't matter who wins at this point, because more then likely, they are going to be facing Brock Lesnar, and Brock is going to eat either one of these men alive in the next round.

To continue on, I think people are over factoring the "hardcore" environment. Yes, it is there for both of these guys to use, but I really don't see this match getting overly violent, as far as weapons use goes. Both of these guys are going to try and out wrestle the other guy. My only problem with Michaels, he tends to take unneeded risks that get him into trouble. If Michaels does go to the top rope, tries a moonsault or something similar, he could be in trouble. Michaels is feast or famine when it comes to high risk,a nd with someone as quick as liger, and deceptively strong, it could be all it takes.

Again, I'm on the fence, but both guys go down next round.

 

[NSL]

If I knew that Jerry Lynn could go over HBK, then I'd be the biggest ass if I voted for HBK over Liger.

Guys like Liger excelled in the early days of ECW, and put on some of the best matches that ECW has ever had. Liger is too good for Michaels to keep up with, and will keep him on his toes the entire match. After about 25-30 minutes, Liger takes him out with an epic LigerBomb off the top rope.

 

[LigerBomb]

So from what I've read so far many believe this match could be highly competitive. I agree. However, most voters for Michaels are basically saying: Whether Shawn is leading or is tremendously far behind is largely irrelevant, since out of nowhere Michaels will bust out a Sweet Chin Music to get the win. On this point I will have to respectively disagree.

For those who may be unaware the superkick -what Shawn calls "Sweet Chin Music"- is said to have been innovated by the late Gentleman Chris Adams. Michaels would later go on record as saying he was personally taught the move by Adams while in Texas. Now Adams was a skilled martial artist in his own right; much like Liger he tried to incorporate legitimate martial arts strikes into his standard arsenal of Pro Wrestling moves. That said, Jushin Liger is trained in numerous styles of martial arts and would not only anticipate the super kick and it's many variations, but have more than enough training to either avoid it outright or easily side step and counter it with a martial arts move of his own.

One of Liger's signature, and most devastating, moves is the Shotei Thrust. It's an open handed, upward thrusting palm strike, capable of being delivered with lightning fast precision and brutal power, often stopping an opponent's momentum and sending him flying end over end. It's such an incapacitating maneuver that referees often must check that Liger's opponents haven't been knock out cold and are able to continue the match. Liger has been know to deliver the move either from a running start like the spear/gore, or from a static position after creating an opening for a counter attack.

Now it would be foolish to say that Liger could never be hit by Shawn's superkick. Similarly, the idea that Michaels' could never miss, is equally baseless. What I maintain is that Liger's training, preparation, and experience in all likelihood abrogates the supposedly great advantage that many voters are claiming Shawn has with regards to Michaels' ability to end this match so abruptly. It is more plausible to contend that Shawn would have to significantly wear down, if not outright immobilize Liger to even hope to prepare the move properly. This scenario however would be exceedingly difficult for Shawn to accomplish as Liger is the faster, more powerful, and resilient of the two. [youtube]k-adR4vM9aM[/youtube]

 

[mills989]

I agree with everything everyone has said in my opinion Shawn takes this but only just... He has the home crowd behind which is extremel important for a man like Micheals, he can hit the flying elbow and nip up into Sweet Chin Music and then probably another SCM out of no where to fall over Liger and only just get the win.