ECW San Antonio, Round 2, Match 1: #2 Shawn Michaels vs. #31. Jerry Lynn

[Coco]

Here's how it is, folks. In a real wrestling match under ECW rules, Jerry Lynn stands a chance at beating HBK. Fact is, HBK has never, EVER had a true ECW match. Period. Say what you want about his ladder matches, but he's never been slammed on thumbtacks, never had a cheese grater to the face, and has never seen the likes of this environment.

That's silly. ECW didn't bust out the tacks for every single match. No saying they'd be seen in this one. So aside from a few unlikely weapons, what else does Shawn have to adapt to? A small geeky audience? Late '97 HBK would eat those fans alive and soak in the heat from them in. I don't think Lynn's homefield advantage would mean a thing.

As for HBK respecting Lynn... Shawn, of a different era, would be so far above the indy sensation and his fans and Michaels would know it. Michaels would be confident like a motherfucker for this one.

 

[justinsayne]

Ok now that I'm fully awake I can take the time to put together the post I was to tired to to at 3 in the morning, LOL

First things first

PLEASE tell me you're both joking regarding Triple H. How in the world does that justify Lynn winning? How does that mean ANYTHING?

IDK but you were the one to bring his match with Trips into this debate to begin with, remember, you said this...

Remember the match with Triple H at Summerslam 2002? That should be neough to prove Shawn goes over here.

so in one post you say his match with Triple H should be proof enough that he goes over Lynn, then a few mins. later in another post your saying his matches over Triple H don't justify shit in this match, Damn it woman make up your mind!, LOL

Babe you're making NO sense at all.

I assume you mean with this...

You're going to have to follow my logic, as it loops around a little.

If you're right, and HBK's best matches come against people he hates, than his worst matches come against people he likes, or respects. Following me so far?

Jerry Lynn is loved, and adored, by just about everyone on the indy scene. Fans, promoters, wrestlers. So, by using your math, HBK would respect Lynn, especially since this is Lynn's type of match, and Lynn's environment.

IDK but maybe you just didn't read it closely enough but if you really follow it it does make some sense

I never said matches with people he likes or respects are 'subpar'. After all, wasn't my original point that his match with Triple H was great?

Didn't you just say his match with Triple doesn't justify anything?

and you're saying NSL isn't making any sense?

I just don't think his relationship with his competitor will make that mauch of a difference - as a professional that doesn't matter either way and it's a very weak argument.

IDK relationship with the competitor should matter, if you follow the logic that if you don't respect the guy you are in the ring with you could get careless and sloppy, botch moves which could lead to injury and change the outcome of the match, HBK may have hated Bret with a passion and vice versa but I assure you the two had at least some respect for the others work in the ring, in fact the only person I think HBK really didn't show much respect to in the ring was Hogan, but even then all he did was over sell the shit out of everything, which in the end just made HBK look ridiculous


All that being said I don't really feel the QUALITY of the match is all that relevant here, the only thing that ultimately matters is who wins the match

 

[HBK-aholic]

Think you're slightly confused. Regarding Triple H we were discussing how I thought that was a good match, and how they said it couldn't be used because they're friends. This post

PLEASE tell me you're both joking regarding Triple H. How in the world does that justify Lynn winning? How does that mean ANYTHING?

was in response to that. They CAN'T use the Shawn/Triple H relationship as a reason that match isn't useful here, when Shawn's relationship with his opponent has never meant anything in terms of quality, hence why I brought up Bret Hart.

Clear?

 

[Big Sexy]

Anybody who votes for Jerry Lynn because this is ECW is stupid. The hardcore environment is the easiest environment to adapt to. The reason guys like Jerry Lynn, Sandman, and Tommy Dreamer had their greatest success in ECW is because they weren't good enough to main eventers elsewhere. You talk about HBK's lack of hardcore matches, but he has been in HIAC's, the first Elimination Chamber, he has beaten Triple H in a street fight. His success in these types of matches might not be as good as Jerry Lynn's, but his competition has also been a lot better. Jerry Lynn has never had to go against the likes of Undertaker, Triple H, and Kane. HBK has beaten all of those guys in hardcore style matches. Shawn Michaels gets the win here.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Anybody who votes for Jerry Lynn because this is ECW is stupid. The hardcore environment is the easiest environment to adapt to. The reason guys like Jerry Lynn, Sandman, and Tommy Dreamer had their greatest success in ECW is because they weren't good enough to main eventers elsewhere. You talk about HBK's lack of hardcore matches, but he has been in HIAC's, the first Elimination Chamber, he has beaten Triple H in a street fight. His success in these types of matches might not be as good as Jerry Lynn's, but his competition has also been a lot better. Jerry Lynn has never had to go against the likes of Undertaker, Triple H, and Kane. HBK has beaten all of those guys in hardcore style matches. Shawn Michaels gets the win here.

It doesn't matter if Jerry Lynn hasn't faced Taker, HHH or Kane and it doesn't matter if Shawn Michaels has beaten them. It's between these two competitors here. I'm not voting against HBK just because it's in ECW. I look at these two objectively and say that in this particular match I think Lynn can beat HBK. You say the ECW environment is easier to adapt, so I'm picking the guy who's been in that environment the longest and knows the ins and outs of it and that would be Lynn.

If this was in a different region, you could say that Lynn wasn't good enough to succedd anywhere, but this being in ECW makes that point irrevelant. Sure you can say that Michaels was in the first HIAC and Elimination Chamber, but he is not known as a hardcore guy. Truth be told, HBK is going to have a hard time beating Lynn and Lynn has seen better superkicks than Shawn's and his doesn't connect half the time and all it takes is one misstep.

 

[HBK-aholic]

It doesn't matter if Jerry Lynn hasn't faced Taker, HHH or Kane and it doesn't matter if Shawn Michaels has beaten them. It's between these two competitors here. I'm not voting against HBK just because it's in ECW. I look at these two objectively and say that in this particular match I think Lynn can beat HBK. You say the ECW environment is easier to adapt, so I'm picking the guy who's been in that environment the longest and knows the ins and outs of it and that would be Lynn.

If this was in a different region, you could say that Lynn wasn't good enough to succedd anywhere, but this being in ECW makes that point irrevelant. Sure you can say that Michaels was in the first HIAC and Elimination Chamber, but he is not known as a hardcore guy. Truth be told, HBK is going to have a hard time beating Lynn and Lynn has seen better superkicks than Shawn's and his doesn't connect half the time and all it takes is one misstep.

I wouldn't even be surprised if hardcore rules didn't come into play here. Big Sexy made the excellent point that people like Lynn are big in ECW because they can't Main Event anywhere else. Shawn is THE Main Event, and could nail a Sweet Chin Music on Lynn before he's had a chance to reach for the chair.

Lynn may know the ins and outs of ECW, but Shawn knows the ins and outs of the entire busniess. He could have made it anywhere.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Michaels could nail Lynn before he's had the chance to reach for the chair? Now I know this has all got to be a put-on.

Also, Michaels would have never made it in WCW.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Michaels could nail Lynn before he's had the chance to reach for the chair? Now I know this has all got to be a put-on.

Also, Michaels would have never made it in WCW.

I believe that Michaels would have a hard time making it in ECW but I'm curious to know why he would never have made it in WCW. Don't take this as a disagreement

 

[Uncle Sam]

It is a disagreement. I'm not going to bite your head off just because you disagree with me. I'm the one being difficult.

Really, it depends what time Michaels could have joined WCW. If Bret Hart is anything to go by, he might have held a title or two - if he joined when his value was highest - but he'd have been completely overshadowed by the Stings, Flairs, Savages, Hogans, Goldbergs, among others. It's really irrelevant.

I think Shawn could have made it in ECW. He's a talented worker that's not afraid to bleed or take hard bumps. Those last two points are what made people big in ECW.

Jerry Lynn, on the other hand, bleeds more, bumps harder and jumps higher.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Michaels is one of the best in the history of the industry. Like him or not, he's proven it. Jerry Lynn is the ultimate darling of the independent circuit and I've seen him wrestle a handful of times. I saw him have some great matches with RVD back when ECW was on TNN. I think this could be a great match, I think it'd be bloody and very physical. Do I think Lynn would pull an upset in the end? Absolutely not.

I know that some editors like to use the setting of these matches to sometimes justify the way they vote, whatever floats your boat. However, the flaw with that logic is that greatness is greatness no matter what promotion's ring these matches take place in. I like Michaels and while I'm not a mega fan, I have to admit that he is arguably the best in the business of the past 15 years or so. Michaels can have great and classic matches with almost anybody, he's proven it. I'm not taking anything away from Lynn, but being a big fish in the indy leagues isn't the same as being a big fish in the big leagues.

I think Lynn would do well for himself, he'd do the old school ECW fans proud. But to suggest that Michaels couldn't handle an old school ECW match is completely baseless. Michaels has proven his greatness over the past decade and a half or so. That type of consistency against Jerry Lynn is something I just can't vote against. Michaels takes this.

 

[NSL]

I wouldn't even be surprised if hardcore rules didn't come into play here. Big Sexy made the excellent point that people like Lynn are big in ECW because they can't Main Event anywhere else. Shawn is THE Main Event, and could nail a Sweet Chin Music on Lynn before he's had a chance to reach for the chair.

Lynn may know the ins and outs of ECW, but Shawn knows the ins and outs of the entire busniess. He could have made it anywhere.

Without guys like Jerry Lynn succeeding in ECW, there would be no HIAC match for Shawn to succeed in. The ladder match wouldn't have evolved the way it did. Street fights would be two guys punching each other, not two guys throwing each other off stages and leaping off scaffolds.

HBK may have been in the firsts, but it wasn't him that innovated anything.

In the Old School section, I have a thread up on ECW, and there's tons of points in there about ECW saving wrestling.

 

[Coco]

According to Michaels, Hell in a Cell was an idea that grew from cage matches the NWA ran in the Omni Coliseum. So what ECW and Lynn have to do with that, I know not.

 

[justinsayne]

According to Michaels, Hell in a Cell was an idea that grew from cage matches the NWA ran in the Omni Coliseum. So what ECW and Lynn have to do with that, I know not.

This match isn't a HIAC or a cage match so I don't even understand what people having success in those types of matches has to do with anything

 

[Captain America]

This match isn't a HIAC or a cage match so I don't even understand what people having success in those types of matches has to do with anything

It shows that one can take punishment and can handle excessive blood loss. Look at the beating HBK received in the first HIAC. He was a bloody mess. Undertaker beat him to a pulp! Undertaker rammed him repeatedly head first into the steel structure and even kicked him down from on top of the cell into the Spanish announce table. It was one of the most brutal matches of 1997. Yet despite all that Shawn Michaels still got the win. Shawn is as tough as they come. He'd be able to handle the extreme rules, he'd be able to handle all the weapons, he'd be able to handle the blood loss, and most importantly he'd be able to handle Jerry Lynn.

Shawn is considered by many to be the best wrestler to ever lace up a pair of boots. When you think of the greatest Wrestlemania matches of all time, you imediately think of Shawn's 60 minute iron man match against Bret Hart, a match in which he went move for move, hold for hold, with one of the best technical wrestlers in the history of the business and came away with the win and you think of Shawn's recent instant classic against the Undertaker at Wrestlemania 25. Shawn is a guy who's never looked bad against anyone he's faced and he's faced the absolute best in the business (something that can't be said for Jerry Lynn).

Shawn Michaels has defeated the absolute best in the business. HBK has defeated HHH, The Undertaker, Kevin Nash, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, Mick Foley, and others. Who has Jerry Lynn ever defeated??? I'll give you RVD; which is impressive, but he lost against RVD more times than he won and I'll take wins over Taker, Nash, Y2J, Orton, HHH and Foley over a win against RVD anyday.

The Bottom line is that Shawn has faced and defeated the best of the best on the biggest stages of them all. Jerry Lynn hasn't. Jerry's a great wrestler and has contributed a lot to this business, but he's no Shawn Michaels. If you were to write a book on the history of pro wrestling, you could write that book without ever even mentioning Jerry Lynn, the same thing can't be said about Shawn Michaels. Shawn definitely gets the win here.

 

[NSL]

Shawn is considered by many to be the best wrestler to ever lace up a pair of boots.

He's great. But, I don't know about "best ever".

When you think of the greatest Wrestlemania matches of all time, you imediately think of Shawn's 60 minute iron man match against Bret Hart, a match in which he went move for move, hold for hold, with one of the best technical wrestlers in the history of the business and came away with the win and you think of Shawn's recent instant classic against the Undertaker at Wrestlemania 25.

No, I don't. But, if they are his best, then my point only holds more true, that in a 40 minute match, under extreme rules, where Lynn is going non-stop the entire time, HBK will need about 10 rests of a minute or so each.

Please don't tell me you're so blind that you think they were both non-stop action. They weren't. HBK-Taker may be one of the greatest matches ever, but there was still a ton of rest time. HBK won't be able to keep up with Lynn over the long haul.

 

[Big Sexy]

It'll be a30-40 minute classic match, but Lynn will be high octane the whole time, where HBK will need about 10 stops of 30-40 seconds each.

HBK would get the win in under 20 minutes. Lynn was great at what he did, but he's going against a legitimate Hall of Fame wrestler in Shawn Michaels. Even if it did got 40 minutes, I want you to show me a match where Lynn went 40 minutes without having rests. In ECW they didn't really have rest holds because that didn't fit their style, but any time there was a big spot where someone went through a table or something of that nature, they always stayed down and rested before getting back up.

I know it doesn't take much to swing a chair, but it does take some talent to know how to use a chair with just about every move in your arsenal.

Not really. How hard is it to realize that body slamming someone onto a chair will do more damage then a regular body slam? How hard is it to realize that putting a chair on a guys face before giving him a flying elbow drop will do more damage then a regular flying elbow? It's a fairly simple concept.

 

[Fizzy]

Great match we have here. Lynn in ECW was at his prime and was adapted to the extreme style that ECW had. Michaels is not adapt to that style. Idc about any argument anybody made. He won the first HIAC. That proves nothing. His opponent was not adapted to it either. A few "extreme" matches does not mean your adapted to the style. That being said i'm going to give this to Michaels anyway. Lynn will get the upper hand for some of the match, but Shawn is to good. He will catch Lynn making a mistake and it's all over from there. It only takes a few chair shots to Lynn for him to be down, and anybody can swing a damn chair no matter how unadapted you are. Add sweet chin music after the chair shots, and it's over.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

HBK is the greatest worker of all-time, and the ECW environment has been known to showcase just that kind of star. ECW wasn't just about "hardcore." It was all about providing a quality product with the most talented wrestlers available. Shawn is a better performer and worker than Jerry Lynn, and he can match him spot for spot. Shawn wins with Sweet Chin Music after a match that goes back and forth, in and out of the ring, with maybe a chair or two.

 

[Captain America]

He's great. But, I don't know about "best ever".

I didn't say I considered him the best, I said that "many people consider him the best." and a lot of people do.

No, I don't. But, if they are his best, then my point only holds more true, that in a 40 minute match, under extreme rules, where Lynn is going non-stop the entire time, HBK will need about 10 rests of a minute or so each.

He went 60 minutes with a man considered by many to be the best technical wrestler in the history of the sport and he did so in a match that's considered by many to be the best Wrestlemania match ever. Shawn didn't have any breaks in that match. He went move for move with Bret Hart. If he can go move for move with Bret Hart why couldn't he go move for move with Jerry Lynn? I mean you act like Michaels has poor conditioning or something, but where is your evidence to support this? I mean this is a man who has had some great, highly intense matches that have went longer than 60 minutes. Conditioning has never been a problem for Shawn Michaels. Going at an intense pace has never been a problem for him. In fact he's thrived in those kind of matches. He's defeated both Bret Hart and John Cena in matches lasting over an hour. Jerry Lynn is great, but how many matches has he ever had that have lasted longer than 60 minutes?

Please don't tell me you're so blind that you think they were both non-stop action. They weren't. HBK-Taker may be one of the greatest matches ever, but there was still a ton of rest time. HBK won't be able to keep up with Lynn over the long haul.

It was the Undertaker at Wrestlemania though! Sure they had some periods where they were both so badly beatup that they couldn't keep going at a non-stop pace, but that was because of the hell they put their bodies through that night. Undertaker is an absolute legend of the sport and he's even more legendary at Wrestlemania. The fact that Michaels came within an eye lash of beating Taker at Wrestlemania just goes to show you how great his skills truly are.

I mean this man kicked out of the tombstone piledirver on that night. How many guys have ever kicked out of the tombstone (aside from Kane I can't think of anyone)? If he can kick out of the tombstone piledriver, if he can survive a hellacious hell in a cell match where he's bleeding like a stuck pig, and if he can defeat some of the best in the business why wouldn't he be able to handle the extreme rules, weapons, and Jerry Lynn? Shawn has accomplished more and has defeated the better wrestlers of the two. I don't see the argument for Jerry Lynn here. I'm sorry, but I don't. I respect Jerry Lynn, he's a good wrestler, but Shawn's gonna take this one.

 

[Lee]

I think people forget how good Lynn couild be, the problem is though that HBK can be better than that. So it is for that reason my vote goes to HBK.

 

[Shocky]

To me, the Hardcore element isn't even a factor int his match. People tend to forget that ECW showcased in ring ability with the best of them, and there have been plenty of great, great matches that occured that didn't involve a single shred of hardcore to it. I think this is one of those matches.

Jerry Lynn to me is more of a chain wrestler, with splashes of high flying to him, much like Michaels. Michaels is in a weird position here where I believe he's the bigger man, a role you hardly ever see come into play.

In the end, I'm gonig with HBK. Someone like a Chris Benoti fell to Shawn Michaels when Benoit was one month away from his title win at Mania. If that Michaels could put down a monster like Benoit, who I think is leeps and bounds beyond Jerry Lynn, then I have no problem with HBK winning. I think it would be a great match,b ut HBK is simply better.

 

[RVDgurl]

I like this match up and would have paid good money to see it take place in an ECW ring. HBK v. Lynn would have been cut from the same mold as the famed RVD v. Lynn matches that made ECW so great in the later years. Jerry Lynn has the experience in ECW, but region will play no part in the outcome of this match- HBK is just plain better. I have so much respect for Jerry Lynn and I believe that he would take HBK to the limit in a 45 - 60 minutes match. Michaels takes the victory, but Lynn would do what he does best- make HBK look even better than he is.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

Being a huge ECW/Jerry Lynn fan this hurts a little bit, but I wouldn't feel righ if I voted on who I personally liked better.

This one goes to HBK. He's shown that he can take alot of punishment in a Hardocre enviorment (Vs HHH SS '02 & his HIAC match Vs 'Taker). Add to that the fact that Shawn is one of the best and could run miles around Lynn and you have a man who would take everything Lynn could dish out in an ECW enviorment and still pick up the win.