ECW Semi-Final: Barbed Wire Match: Brock Lesnar vs. Edge

[justinsayne]

I live on a farm as a kid. Lots of hard work goes into farm work. Lifting bales of hay, slashing brush, and putting up barb wire. One never clothes when he is putting up barbed wire. I will give you a reason. You move against it, and it will cut you open. It will cut you like a fucking knife. I know that, and I respect barbed wire. I know another man who has felt the piercing steel. That man is Edge. He will come into this match respecting the ropes of death. Lesnar hasn't learned to respect it yet. But he will. As it tears him apart, leaving Edge to pick up the pieces with a spear, just like a torero killing a bull.

The winner of this match, and the true Ultimate Opportunist has to be... Edge.

Interesting argument, seeing as how Lesnar grew up on a farm as well, therefore he too has likely put up barbwire and knows how to work with it, knows the damage it can do, so yeah that being said, I think it's likely Brock has learned to respect barbwire and the damage it can do

 

[BooCocky]

In barbwire ropes matches, there's rarely, if ever, help from the outside. Edge would be too big of a pussy to climb through the barbwire to get in the ring, so what makes you think the "Edgeheads" would be OK with it? All Lesnar would have to do to stop them, is just toss them into the barbwire. Then, he can pick them up, and use them as a weapon against Edge.

it isn't necessarily help, it is a distraction. Heyman fueled Brock Lesnar, and if he isn't able to help, Lesnar is in trouble. Don't you think if Hawkins and Ryder attacked Heyman, don't you think Brock would attempt to go help Paul? I do, Edge would then seize the moment and take him out...

The same Edge that then lost a week later to Batista in a handicap match with the Edge heads on side? Yeah, OK.

Dave's an Animal?

If we're calling in help from old friends, I'm sure Paul Heyman or Kurt Angle would be happy to help out. Really, this logic is just silly.

The Edge Heads aren't in this tournament. I also believe Kurt Angle is in a cage match against two other wrestlers... There goes your logic, Sam.

 

[NSL]

This is a barbed-wire rope match, where the ropes are, obviously, covered with sharp barbed-wire.

Please...Do us a favor, and go watch a barbwire rope match. The ropes are not covered in barbwire...They are barbwire...

it isn't necessarily help, it is a distraction. Heyman fueled Brock Lesnar, and if he isn't able to help, Lesnar is in trouble. Don't you think if Hawkins and Ryder attacked Heyman, don't you think Brock would attempt to go help Paul? I do, Edge would then seize the moment and take him out...

After Heyman screwed Brock, I'm pretty sure Brock would let him get fed to the wolves. Or, he'd lay Edge across the barbwire, and use him as a ramp to get out of the ring. The only time anyone came to ringside to help, was when RVD came out to help Sabu against Terry Funk, and he did so, because they needed someone else to help cut barbwire, and all the stagehands were already out there. None of the other wrestlers made sense, so he was sent out. He didn't actually do much with the match, he was just kind of there. Funk was already encased in barbwire, so it was about over anyway.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

So.. Many.. Horrible.. Arguments.. Need.. To.. Compose.. Myself..

If Edge escaped this with his life intact he'd be lucky. Brock wins this decisively as there's practically nothing Edge can do to beat him.

Do the world a favor.. re-read even so much as ONE of the several posts I've already contributed.. (not to mention, everyone else) then try adding more than two frickin sentences in your very lame, very *expletive deleted* argument.

I am not going to go over the entire argument I had with Will in the general discussion, but I'm voting Lesnar. Edge will be stuck in the ring, with nowhere to go, while Lesnar has all the chances in the world to feast on him. Edge will be bleeding more than Flair in a main event, and will lose, no matter how you figure the match to go...

1. Edge doesn't have to be stuck in the ring. For someone who's telling others to watch the previous barbwire matches, you sure don't recall them yourselves. To my knowledge, both of the barbwire matches I've seen (Raven/Sandman - Funk/Sabu) have went to the outside of the ring. NOTHING shows that this match wouldn't easily do just the same as the previous ones. This, Edge wouldn't be stuck in the ring, with no where to run.

2. Quit assuming Edge will bleed more. You simply don't know this. Infact, you take the assumption that because Lesnar is a whooping 15 pounds heavier, that he's randomly going to just toss Edge around like he's some cruiserweight. He isn't, and he won't.

3. There is ALWAYS an Opportunistic Moment. So stop freakin assuming Edge has zero chance to win.. all because it's Brock Lesnar.

He's not a God, he can't make lightning come out of his ass, and he's lost to Hardcore Holly.. he can be beaten.. any time, any where, any how. Most of all, to a guy as opportunistic, and gimmick knowledgeable as Edge is.

Lesnar should win this easily, Edge's key finisher is the spear, if Lesnar ducks out of the way, you know what happens Edge launches himself into the barbwire Lesnar pulls him out of the barbwire power bombs the fuck out of him him then picks him up and F-5's Edges ass onto the Barbwire, end of match Lesnar walks out the winner

Hmm.. so this is how you wanna play? Fair enough, I'll act naive and stupid, too.

Lesnar's F-5 requires him to lift Edge up into a Fireman's carry position.. a position Edge can 95% of the time ALWAYS slide down, out of, behind the opponent and either do 1 of 2 things.. drop him in an Edge-a-matic, or bounce off the ropes, as the opponent's turning around (stunned and shocked he got loose) and hit them with a Spear. 1-2-3, Edge wins.

Happy now? I can assume how matches can go, too. And mine actually make sense, because actual matches have ended this way. When have you ever seen Lesnar F-5 someone on barbwire, or ropes for that matter?

In barbwire ropes matches, there's rarely, if ever, help from the outside. Edge would be too big of a pussy to climb through the barbwire to get in the ring, so what makes you think the "Edgeheads" would be OK with it? All Lesnar would have to do to stop them, is just toss them into the barbwire. Then, he can pick them up, and use them as a weapon against Edge.

ugh.. there has only hardly ever been help in Barbwire matches, because both times the match has happened.. it's involved individuals who don't typically have buddies to help them.

And, while my memory of the match isn't that great.. didn't Raven have Stevie Richards, or someone attempt to help him. Maybe it wasn't the Raven/Sandman match - but I swear someone was involved, in one of the barbwire matches, that wasn't meant to be..

The POINT.. why couldn't someone come out and help? Especially if they're followers? It's their job to put their bodies on the line for their leader.

As for your logic of assuming Edge wouldn't have anyone come out to help him.. why? And why would the have to go through the barbwire? Once again.. you tell everyone to watch the matches, but you fail to recall them yourself.

I know for a fact in the Raven/Sandman barbwire match, one side of the ring was entirely cut open by pliers.. be it Sandman, or Raven, one of them cut the barbwire ropes completely in half, opening this HUGE hole on one side of the ring - in which they could willingly come, and go, as they pleased.

So why couldn't Edge be smart enough to do this? You know.. opportunity.. opportunist.. he wants space.. this can create it..

Fuck man, can you just not think this out for one minute?

Please...Do us a favor, and go watch a barbwire rope match. The ropes are not covered in barbwire...They are barbwire...

No, NSL.. PLEASE.. DO ME a favor.. go read what you said, then do it yourself.

Now I'm gonna go have fun with Shocky's post.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Yay, debate with Will. Will, I'm pretty sure that you and I are going to lose everyone else in our ramblings back and forth, so bare with me.

It's okay.. I've been looking forward to this.

What I'm saying is that Edge had a chance to win the WWE Championship from Brock lesnar, by not having to beat Brock lesnar. All Edge had to do was beat Paul Heyman, which in reality shouldn't have been that hard to do. Lesnar was good enough to keep heyman from being pinned by Edge. A 2 on 1 with Heyman as your partner is more like a handicap match in favor of Edge.

The only problem with this is, how many Handicap matches that involve managers - do YOU recall the individual with the odds against him (1 against 2, that is) pinning the Manager to gain the victory? Very few, if any.

Why? Because it's the Wrestler's job to protect his interest. So naturally, he's never going to tag out if ever.. yet when he does, he's constantly with one foot in the ring, waiting and almost knowing the time will come when he needs to jump into the ring on a split second's notice, to stop the inevitable 3-count from happening.

Had Paul Heyman not of been in the match, at all.. Lesnar would've lost. Obviously anything could've went differently, but the reason I firmly believe this is because Edge controlled Lesnar more in that match, than Lesnar controlled Edge. (this also factor's in for everyone saying Edge can't handle Lesnar's power, or Lesnar will man-handle and squash Edge -- Anyone who's seen this match, knows that isn't true, and wouldn't happen.)

It was only when Edge focused on the opportunistic moments he had with Heyman, that Lesnar capitalized more. Was that a downside for Edge? Back then, when he wasn't as smart, yeah I'd say so.

But that is also another factor I'm trying to point out. Edge wasn't at his best, mentally, back then. He was young, and all gunge-ho at trying to rush and deliver everything he had all at once, win, lose or draw. I'd say the prime version of Edge, is the version that's won 9 Championships in 3 year's time.. (Lesnar's never done that) the guy that finds every single possible (even cheap) way to win a match, yet still does it no matter what.

As far as Edge and his prime, I would say his physical prime would have been back in the early parts of his decade. Edge in 2002 was about as good as he was, before the injuries started. I'm sure you remember, that even back then (2003-2004) Edge couldn't stay healthy and could have very easily became a Kennedy or Ahmed Johnson. Edge's body was his glass jaw, and the physical wrestling side of him faded. He became a better mental wrestler, but I think less of a physical threat since then. Again, my opinion, you probably see it differently.

I'd agree that Edge's had his fair share of injuries, but outside of when he had to forfeit the Championship due to the injury he suffered in the segment with Kane, (back when Khali took over as Champion) he hasn't had any since.. and it's now been 2 full years, the arguable best years, for Edge. (I don't count his trip to hell as an injury)

As for the He became a better mental wrestler, but less of a physical threat comment.. Of course he did, but only because when you can win matches with your mental mind-games, and opportunistic ways.. why should you use power? Reserve it, save it, for when it's needed.. in situations like this.

Look at his victories against the Undertaker, in the T.L.C match.. John Cena, in the Last Man Standing match.. or even his victory in the Elimination Chamber, earlier this year.. all of which, he had to use his power and abilities, to stay in the match.. and in some cases, win. (yes, he's had help with some, but he didn't just have someone instantly come out and help him win - he had to maintain his stay in each match, which means he had to put up a great enough fight against each opponent, or opponents.)

I still fail to see how Lesnar failed to use his surrounding. He was tossing the Undertaker around ragged from pillar to cage in that match. Undertaker was destroyed by Lesnar and everything Lesnar literally threw at him. Remember the chair shots to break the cast of the Undertaker's arm? Remember the Steel Steps being driven into the side of his head and making him bleed like a stuffed pig? Remember lesnar climbing to the top of the turnbuckle, grabbing the top of the cage, and then pjutting everything into kicking the Undertaker. If that is Lesnar not using his srurroundings, then I'm pretty damn scared of what will hapen when he uses the surrounding.

Using steel steps, isn't using the Cell. Using a chair, isn't using the Cell. Jumping up and playing hang-man off the Cell, is only barely using it to your advantage.

By this understanding, Lesnar would attempt using steps, or chairs in a barbwire match.. but the most he'd do with the actual barbwire, is attempt using it to hold leverage against, to kick or attack Edge in another form or fashion. That is what I mean, by way of how he acted scared of his surroundings. Also, while I can't personally say one way or another - cause I haven't seen the full match.. if what Marquis posted was true, Lesnar was scared of the HIAC, especially if he tried escaping it.

So, just like Marquis said, I'm backing.. if that's true, why on earth wouldn't Lesnar shit himself when he's surrounded by Barbwire?

Everyone talks about Edge doing it to himself, but the fact is.. Edge felt barbwire (maybe not a ton, but more than Lesnar) so he knows what it's like.. and wouldn't fear it as bad as he first did, not knowing. Yet on the flip side, Lesnar doesn't know it.. so the mental aspect already falls in Edge's court.. and Lesnar's head won't even be fully on Edge, as he'll constantly question the barbwire in the back of his mind.

Hell, even in the stretcher match, Brock ended up using a forklift to secure the victory over the Big Show. The guy will use his environment to win.

Once again, he uses everything but the actual gimmick involved. My point on that aspect has been proven, and you proved it further by this.

Not to mention, the forklift he used was ideally the only way he felt he could win against the Big Show. Which also goes to show you, he doubts his own strength, despite knowing he's lifted Big Show for an F-5, countless times.

Palumbo, Will did you seriously compare the Undertaker to Chuck Palumbo, come on man you are way better then that.

You gotta admit though.. they do look similar. American Badass, and well.. whatever the fuck Palumbo was during that time. (And I'm not even comparing the fact that Palumbo was being managed by the same chic Undertaker's fucking - that's just PURE coincidence.

The Undertaker may not have liked the American Bad ASs Gimmick, which from 2000-2001 was a terrible gimmick,b ut it doesn't change the fact that the man had his best year (arguable with 1997 I will admit) of his career.

I was more referring to 2003. While he also had his fair share of decent victories, over the likes of John Cena, (not yet the Cena we've come to know) Big Show, and Albert.. the fact is.. he lost the Rumble, dispite being the last entry, or at least one of the very last entries. And most importantly, he lost to Mr. McMahon.. MR. McMAHON!

That's not the Undertaker we know, who's a real bad ass.. that's a worn down, drained, and pathetic version. The same version, Lesnar faced.

When The Undertaker turned heel and became Booger Red or whatever the hell JR calls him, his pay per view record was damn near one of the best ever.

win vs. RVD
Loss vs. The Rock
Win vs. Ric Flair
Win vs. Steve Austin
Win vs. Hulk Hogan
Win vs. Triple H
Loss vs. Rock and Kurt Angle (wasn't pinned)
Win vs. Test
Draw vs. Brock lesnar
Loss vs. Brock Lesnar

He may not have liked the gimmick or what not, but I dare anyone to find a four month run of anybody that defeated the names in bold in back to back pay per views. In the end though, as great of a year that was for the Undertaker, he was dominated by Brock Lesnar, int eh Undertakers' own match. Edge was sent to hell by an Undertaker well into his 40's at that point.

Once again, that's quite an impressive list of victories to losses. (not even going to dispute how tainted the victories may have been, because it's neither here, nor there)

Yet the fact is.. come year's end, when Taker faced Lesnar.. he wasn't the same Taker that was the Deadman. He wasn't the same Taker, that was the Undisputed Champion earlier that year. He was a shell of his former self, a beaten, broken, and arguably injured and hurting - old man.

I won't discount Lesnar's victories against him completely.. it still takes balls to do what Lesnar did to Taker, in HIAC.. but it wasn't against the same Undertaker that Shawn Michaels faced in HIAC, or that Mick Foley was damn near killed by in HIAC.. so there was quite a bit of difference..

And one that Edge has faced, as well.

You say Edge faced a Taker in his 40's.. but if you're going by kayfabe, age never mattered with the Deadman gimmick.. because the guy had the ability to randomly NO-SELL anything, especially toward the end of matches. And Edge defeated the Undertaker, is what should've been considered (at that time, for Taker, especially) his most important match - ever.. one in which Taker's career was on the line. And Edge won.

See, this is what makes me so damn frustrated as a fan on the IWC. As fans, we tirelessly criticize the business, and the things that go on behind the scene. But what happenes. When a wrstler comes out and bashes a Triple H, you can damn sure bet that a big group of people will defend the guy and do everything in their power to discredit the source of information. I don't understand it.

Brock Lesnar spoke out against the business, and made a ton of valid points about the business. I fail to see why so many people think it is a sign of disrespect. The wrestling business has problems, and a ton of them. This guy is in a postition now where he is a bigger star then anyone in the WWE, and is bringing to light issues that the WWE wants to bury. I have no problem with Brock bashing the WWE and it's ridiculous road achedule.

Trying as hard as I can, to look at this match without knowing how Lesnar left the Company. (to go fail at playing Football, then whine that he couldn't go to an alternative Wrestling company)

I see this one way.. Lesnar will come in, unsure of the barbwire. Edge will come in, not wanting to be involved with it, yet knowing how it feels. Edge will bring with him back-up, and the ability to create an exit - to create space.

Lesnar will bring with him, the naive ways of a rookie, in which he'll throw everything he has at Edge instantly.. wearing himself down early, if he can't put Edge away quick.

Brock Lesnar would win because he is bigger, stronger, meander then Edge. All brock did in the WWE was win, and dominateing guys in the ring. Edge doesn't have the room to maneuver like he normally would Edge preferes flight to fight, and in this match, he has no where to go, at all. Both guys are going to do whatever they can to stay away from the Barbed wire, which plays into Brocksshands that much more. Edge doesn't have the strength to counter Brock when he's on the ground.

Eddie Guerrero, Hardcore Holly, R.V.D, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle.. none of them were bigger, stronger, or meaner than Lesnar.. and they've all defeated him. Not in the same setting.. but once again, Lesnar's never been in this setting, so no one person can say he's a shoe-in to definitely win or lose, I suppose.

The fact is, being bigger, stronger and even meaner.. doesn't guarantee you a victory, when your opponent is a better mental master than you, and also knows how to use every possible gimmick known to man. (practically)

You might not like the way the match ends, it might end cheap and completely bogus and unfair.. but that's how Edge likes it. He loves to piss you off, and steal victories no one believes he should've got. This won't be any different.

 

[Uncle Sam]

No, NSL.. PLEASE.. DO ME a favor.. go read what you said, then do it yourself.

Huh? They are barbed wire. See? See? SEE!?! That's some barbed wirey ropey goodness right there. My favourite was the six sides of barbed wire they did in TNA. That would have been epic.

As soon as the poll opens on this bitch, y'all gonna be getting another one of Sam's Superb Summaries. Yeah, be looking forward to it. Gonna summarise the fuck out of this bitch. Gon' be so summarised, y'all won't even recognise it.

 

[NSL]

1. Edge doesn't have to be stuck in the ring. For someone who's telling others to watch the previous barbwire matches, you sure don't recall them yourselves. To my knowledge, both of the barbwire matches I've seen (Raven/Sandman - Funk/Sabu) have went to the outside of the ring. NOTHING shows that this match wouldn't easily do just the same as the previous ones. This, Edge wouldn't be stuck in the ring, with no where to run.

There's been 3 that I've seen in the ECW Arena. Raven v. Sandman. Sabu v. Terry Funk. Sabu v. Terry Funk v. Shane Douglas.

All three only went to the outside, after all three men had been beaten bloody, and tossed into the barbwire so much, it looked like a bad WWII film.

2. Quit assuming Edge will bleed more. You simply don't know this. Infact, you take the assumption that because Lesnar is a whooping 15 pounds heavier, that he's randomly going to just toss Edge around like he's some cruiserweight. He isn't, and he won't.

He doesn't need to toss Edge around more. Just let him run into it himself with the spear. And, he's F-5'd Big Show. That's a lot harder than spearing him.

3. There is ALWAYS an Opportunistic Moment. So stop freakin assuming Edge has zero chance to win.. all because it's Brock Lesnar.

The barbwire has more to do with it than it just being Brock Lesnar. And, I never said zero chance to win.

He's not a God, he can't make lightning come out of his ass, and he's lost to Hardcore Holly.. he can be beaten.. any time, any where, any how. Most of all, to a guy as opportunistic, and gimmick knowledgeable as Edge is.

Edge's only win when experience barbwire for any length of time, was because he pinned Beulah. I'd take losing to Hardcore Holly, over pinning Beulah in a wrestling match. What I'd do to her in the bedroom is neither here nor there. Edge had to take the easiest route possible to win that match, and it wasn't even a barbwire rope match. That won't happen here.

ugh.. there has only hardly ever been help in Barbwire matches, because both times the match has happened.. it's involved individuals who don't typically have buddies to help them.

Raven? He had the Flock, and he had a whole posse of people watching his back in ECW. Sabu had Bill Alfonso. In the one at Hardcore Homecoming, Shane Douglas had Francine. They may not be the best options, but I'd take them in ECW over Ryder or Hawkins.

And, while my memory of the match isn't that great.. didn't Raven have Stevie Richards, or someone attempt to help him. Maybe it wasn't the Raven/Sandman match - but I swear someone was involved, in one of the barbwire matches, that wasn't meant to be..

Richards came out to the ring, and got hit with a ladder, and then had a table suplexed onto him. He was "involved", but he wasn't exactly a help. Sandman won anyway.

The POINT.. why couldn't someone come out and help? Especially if they're followers? It's their job to put their bodies on the line for their leader.

As for your logic of assuming Edge wouldn't have anyone come out to help him.. why? And why would the have to go through the barbwire? Once again.. you tell everyone to watch the matches, but you fail to recall them yourself.

I know for a fact in the Raven/Sandman barbwire match, one side of the ring was entirely cut open by pliers.. be it Sandman, or Raven, one of them cut the barbwire ropes completely in half, opening this HUGE hole on one side of the ring - in which they could willingly come, and go, as they pleased.

It was Sandman, and he wrapped himself in it, and won. This goes back to when you said only a moron would wrap himself in it. Moron, yes. ECW Champion, also yes. Sabu won, after wrapping himself in barbwire too. FYI.

So why couldn't Edge be smart enough to do this? You know.. opportunity.. opportunist.. he wants space.. this can create it..

Because he's not about to wrap himself in barbwire.

No, NSL.. PLEASE.. DO ME a favor.. go read what you said, then do it yourself.

I've watched them all. Numerous times.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

There's been 3 that I've seen in the ECW Arena. Raven v. Sandman. Sabu v. Terry Funk. Sabu v. Terry Funk v. Shane Douglas.

All three only went to the outside, after all three men had been beaten bloody, and tossed into the barbwire so much, it looked like a bad WWII film.

Once again, both men were bloody. Which automatically defies everyone's logic of how Edge is gonna be the only individual in this match, a bloody mess.

Also, how many times have we seen the guy who's wearing a crimson mask, come out the victor? Surprisingly a lot more than the guy who's basically looking untouched. Especially if that guy, wearing the blood, happens to be better at gimmicks matches.

Holy shit, Batman, that'd be Edge!

He doesn't need to toss Edge around more. Just let him run into it himself with the spear. And, he's F-5'd Big Show. That's a lot harder than spearing him.

This is what makes people using the Spear against Edge, naive and just honestly (seriously no offense) stupid.

HE WON'T FUCKING RUN DIRECTLY INTO THE BARBWIRE!

Even if Lesnar were to move.. lotsa times.. Edge, would at most stumble and fall.. not into barbwire, though. He knows the surroundings better than you'd think. He'd understand how much space to give himself, and the only way I would foresee Edge going into the barbwire, is via Lesnar side-stepping.. then literally picking him up, and shoving him into it.

Which isn't anything Edge can't do right back, by sliding down the back from an F-5 attempt. (which I've already disputed Edge blocked, greatly with ease)

The barbwire has more to do with it than it just being Brock Lesnar. And, I never said zero chance to win.

You also said Lesnar would never stand a chance in E.C.W But I see you foolishly backing him now.. liar.

Edge's only win when experience barbwire for any length of time, was because he pinned Beulah. I'd take losing to Hardcore Holly, over pinning Beulah in a wrestling match. What I'd do to her in the bedroom is neither here nor there. Edge had to take the easiest route possible to win that match, and it wasn't even a barbwire rope match. That won't happen here.

So you'd take a loss, instead of a victory. Fine, whatever.. that works for me, and Edge.

Why? Because it isn't about pride. It's not about having guts, or balls. It's about getting your hand raised, and moving on to the next round. So you and Lesnar can sit and lick your wounds, because you didn't want to take that under-handed tactic to gain a victory.. while myself & Edge will be smiling, on our way to the next round.. because we weren't afraid to fuck the shit up on a Female, who put herself into the match.. KNOWING what could happen.

And yes, it is possible to still happen here. "The easiest route to win" I believe is what you deemed it as. There is always this option, in everything. It's Professional Wrestling.. a divine power can come from under the ring, strike Lesnar down, and Edge can sneak in and cover him for all I care.. it's not likely, but anything is possible.

And while I'm not gonna hold my breath on that.. I will tell you, Edge can match most of Lesnar's power and strength.. HE HAS BEFORE! Why couldn't he now? No logical reason can be given, with video proof disputing you otherwise.

Raven? He had the Flock, and he had a whole posse of people watching his back in ECW. Sabu had Bill Alfonso. In the one at Hardcore Homecoming, Shane Douglas had Francine. They may not be the best options, but I'd take them in ECW over Ryder or Hawkins.

Once again.. you take a group of rejects. Fine. I'll take the two clones that helped win a World Heavyweight Championship, by fooling everyone, including both guys in the match.

Lesnar won't know the difference, until he's being rolled up - shockingly - and loses. Hawkins and Ryder will both dress as Edge, Lesnar (having the blood-lust everyone seems to think he has - which I still don't feel he does) would try to hurt whatever looks like Edge, and in this method.. lose focus, and ultimately.. the match.

Richards came out to the ring, and got hit with a ladder, and then had a table suplexed onto him. He was "involved", but he wasn't exactly a help. Sandman won anyway.

Uhm.. no.. Raven won. So much for watching them numerous times, eh?

It was Sandman, and he wrapped himself in it, and won. This goes back to when you said only a moron would wrap himself in it. Moron, yes. ECW Champion, also yes. Sabu won, after wrapping himself in barbwire too. FYI.

Once again.. the idiot, in this case - Sandman - lost. Edge isn't an idiot, he'd use bolt cutters - snip the barbs, open a "door" to freedom, and gain his space.

It's at this point, one of two things will happen.. and fail for Lesnar.

1. Lesnar stays in the ring: Surely, this wouldn't be an option - since everyone also feels Lesnar is this aggressive animal, right? right. So even though this wouldn't happen.. if it were.. Lesnar would try to stay focused on Edge at all times..

Until someone like Chavo, Vickie, or Christian were to distract him. (pick anyone outside of Hawkins & Ryder) At this point, the aforementioned Hawkins or Ryder, will trade places with Edge.. behind Lesnar's back.. jump him.. proceed to get their ass handed to them, Lesnar won't know what's happened until Edge rolls him up.. Winner - Edge.

2. Lesnar follows Edge outside: At this point, a gang beatdown would likely proceed to happen. Lesnar's strong though, right? He can take it. Until Edge cracks his skull open with a chair he's wrapped in barbwire, taking a page out of Mick Foley's book.

This would follow by a barbwire con-chair-to, leading up to Lesnar being drug unconsciously back to the ring.. pinned.. what, 2-count you say? Fine.. another couple of chair shots, more interference by the gang.. a Spear, and the final 3-count. Winner - Edge.

Because he's not about to wrap himself in barbwire.

No shit.. he's not an idiot, but it doesn't mean he still wouldn't cut his way out.. without foolishly wrapping himself in it, like a moron, mind you.

I've watched them all. Numerous times.

Apparently not enough.

 

[Shocky]

It's okay.. I've been looking forward to this.

Good, even though I'm pretty sure you and I are the only ones reading htis at this point.

The only problem with this is, how many Handicap matches that involve managers - do YOU recall the individual with the odds against him (1 against 2, that is) pinning the Manager to gain the victory? Very few, if any.

Why? Because it's the Wrestler's job to protect his interest. So naturally, he's never going to tag out if ever.. yet when he does, he's constantly with one foot in the ring, waiting and almost knowing the time will come when he needs to jump into the ring on a split second's notice, to stop the inevitable 3-count from happening.

Had Paul Heyman not of been in the match, at all.. Lesnar would've lost. Obviously anything could've went differently, but the reason I firmly believe this is because Edge controlled Lesnar more in that match, than Lesnar controlled Edge. (this also factor's in for everyone saying Edge can't handle Lesnar's power, or Lesnar will man-handle and squash Edge -- Anyone who's seen this match, knows that isn't true, and wouldn't happen.)

It was only when Edge focused on the opportunistic moments he had with Heyman, that Lesnar capitalized more. Was that a downside for Edge? Back then, when he wasn't as smart, yeah I'd say so.

But that is also another factor I'm trying to point out. Edge wasn't at his best, mentally, back then. He was young, and all gunge-ho at trying to rush and deliver everything he had all at once, win, lose or draw. I'd say the prime version of Edge, is the version that's won 9 Championships in 3 year's time.. (Lesnar's never done that) the guy that finds every single possible (even cheap) way to win a match, yet still does it no matter what.

You know, I actually did something I should have done at the very beginning of this thing, but was toos tupid to, looked up the date of when Rebellion was. October 26, 6 days after Brock Lesnar just went to war witht he Undertaker in the Hell in the Cell. Edge should have picked Brock Lesnar off in this match, much like the Big Show shelved the Undertaker on Smackdown that week. Edge had everything going for him at this point, a Brock lesnar that just finished his feud with the Undertaker less then a week before, Paul Heyman as a target for pinfall to win the match, and yet still Edge wasn't able to get the job done. Again, I stick by my that was Edge's best shot argument.

I'd agree that Edge's had his fair share of injuries, but outside of when he had to forfeit the Championship due to the injury he suffered in the segment with Kane, (back when Khali took over as Champion) he hasn't had any since.. and it's now been 2 full years, the arguable best years, for Edge. (I don't count his trip to hell as an injury)

As for the He became a better mental wrestler, but less of a physical threat comment.. Of course he did, but only because when you can win matches with your mental mind-games, and opportunistic ways.. why should you use power? Reserve it, save it, for when it's needed.. in situations like this.

Look at his victories against the Undertaker, in the T.L.C match.. John Cena, in the Last Man Standing match.. or even his victory in the Elimination Chamber, earlier this year.. all of which, he had to use his power and abilities, to stay in the match.. and in some cases, win. (yes, he's had help with some, but he didn't just have someone instantly come out and help him win - he had to maintain his stay in each match, which means he had to put up a great enough fight against each opponent, or opponents.)

Well the outside interference thing is irrelevant, and I don't like to use it in my arguments, so at least we agree that that arguement is probably a dumb one. Both guys are known for their heel work, and both guys have had annoying heel managers that have helped them out in a jam, or been over zealous enough to get involved in a match and cost their guy the victory.

The problem with Edge post injuries and more of the cerbral version is taht when he goes at guys physically, he can be beaten. Yes, he was smiling in his Hell in the Cell match where the Undertaker had Brock intimidated at the beginning, but in the end, the more initimidated, humbled Lesnar was able to pick up a W, where as the confident Edge took the L. The one time where Edge was really dominante in a nasty way in a match was with Matt Hardy, and that was about as personal as it got between two wrestlers. If Edge could get himself that psyched up for this match (which I don't think it's possible, no female involved) then he could go all barbaric on Lesnar. I still think trying to match power with Lesnar is a dumb move though.

Using steel steps, isn't using the Cell. Using a chair, isn't using the Cell. Jumping up and playing hang-man off the Cell, is only barely using it to your advantage.

By this understanding, Lesnar would attempt using steps, or chairs in a barbwire match.. but the most he'd do with the actual barbwire, is attempt using it to hold leverage against, to kick or attack Edge in another form or fashion. That is what I mean, by way of how he acted scared of his surroundings. Also, while I can't personally say one way or another - cause I haven't seen the full match.. if what Marquis posted was true, Lesnar was scared of the HIAC, especially if he tried escaping it.

So, just like Marquis said, I'm backing.. if that's true, why on earth wouldn't Lesnar shit himself when he's surrounded by Barbwire?

Everyone talks about Edge doing it to himself, but the fact is.. Edge felt barbwire (maybe not a ton, but more than Lesnar) so he knows what it's like.. and wouldn't fear it as bad as he first did, not knowing. Yet on the flip side, Lesnar doesn't know it.. so the mental aspect already falls in Edge's court.. and Lesnar's head won't even be fully on Edge, as he'll constantly question the barbwire in the back of his mind.

The only person that has ever used a stretcher as a weapon was when Big Show had Mysterio tied down to it, and flung him into the ringpost. Other then ramming heach other with the board and then hitting each otehr in the back.

I mustask then, how does one properly use the Hell in the Cell. It's essentially a hardcore match confiend to a steel cage with a roof. Brock used weapons that were properly available for him to use in that match,a nd I believe we got the typical javelin spear throw. Brock pinned the Undertaker's arm and head against the cage and proceeded to pound him like a railroad stake against the cage. Aside from ripping a piece of the cage off the wall, I don't know how your supposed to use the cage anymroe.

there is a ton more to go over, and I will when I get back, but I got to nieces parties to get ready for, finish this later.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

I'm getting tired of reading that Brock Lesnar lost to Hardcore Holly. In their first match, Lesnar was attempting a powerbomb and Holly sandbagged the move, not lifting his waist and making it impossible for Lesnar to finish the move. So, Lesnar dropped him on his head and broke his neck. In their match at the Rumble, Lesnar made short work of him and moved on.

 

[justinsayne]

So.. Many.. Horrible.. Arguments.. Need.. To.. Compose.. Myself..

Christ dude settle the fuck down

Hmm.. so this is how you wanna play? Fair enough, I'll act naive and stupid, too.

I'm not playing this Stupid and naive, I'm just putting forth an very likely scenario in which Lesnar would win, like HE ALMOST ALWAYS FUCKING DOES, you are the one being stupid and naive with you blind biased love for Edge, it's not obviously not allowing you to see things clearly

Lesnar's F-5 requires him to lift Edge up into a Fireman's carry position.. a position Edge can 95% of the time ALWAYS slide down,

Dude, WTF, 95% of the time Always?!, it's one or the other, either he slide out of it 95% of the time or he slide out of it all the time, not that it matter because he likely won't be sliding out of anything after Brock tears his ass apart, it doesn't take Brock long to whip off an F5, Edge won't have time to slide off, and if he does all he'll accomplish is further pissing off Brock

drop him in an Edge-a-matic

You can't seriously think that an Edge-a-matic is gonna keep Brock down do ya?

, or bounce off the ropes, as the opponent's turning around (stunned and shocked he got loose) and hit them with a Spear. 1-2-3, Edge wins.

So wait, are you suggesting that if edge were able to slide out of the F5 that he'd bounce off the ropes and hit a spear?, let me say that again Edge would bounce off the barbwire ropes and hit a spear, and you think he'd get the win?, yeah no... just no, if Edge tried to bounce of the ropes that right there would be the end to any attempt to spear Brock after the counter, he'd hit the ropes and instantly feel the pain of barbwire tearing his skin apaart an that would be it, Brock would pick him up and F5 his ass to hell

Happy now? I can assume how matches can go, too.

Isn't this kinda the point, to provide and argument and scenario in which your guy would win?, how the fuck does that make ME stupid and Naive?!?, the fact that you have to resort to name calling just shows that your panicking cause you know this could very well be the end for your precious wittle Edgey

And mine actually make sense, because actual matches have ended this way.

your scenario has Edge flinging himself into barbwire and then hitting a spear how in the blue fuck does that make sense, and when the hell has that ever eeeeeeeeeeeever happened before?!?!?

When have you ever seen Lesnar F-5 someone on barbwire, or ropes for that matter?

We've seen Brock F5 people out of the ring, we've seen Brock F5 people into the steel ring posts, and through tables, it stands to reason if Brock saw barbwire he would likely be salivating at the thought of F5ing someone on to it

HE WON'T FUCKING RUN DIRECTLY INTO THE BARBWIRE!

He's missed adn run into the ring posts, Rey has manged to counter the spear and use Edge's own momemtum to set up a 619, seems pretty reassonalbe for people to assume Brock would be able to just set out of the way as Edge's is attempting to spear him, Edge's momentum could carry him into the barbwire ropes[/QUOTE]

 

[Nate DaMac]

I'm gonna vote Edge. 3 very simple reasons. 1. Edge>Lesnar. 2. I have yet to see anyone remotely rebutt Will without the"Nuh uh! Lesnar is strong and smart Edge is a pussy," argument. If this was an iron man, submission, or something of that nature, Lesnar wins. Its not. 3. Weapons+Edge=victory. Though he hasn't won them all, he has one nore gimmick matches than Brock has matches.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

I'm gonna vote Edge.

Shame...

1. Edge>Lesnar.

What a spectacular reason! Let's see... I have a great rebuttal.

Lesnar > Edge. See what I did there?

2. I have yet to see anyone remotely rebutt Will without the"Nuh uh! Lesnar is strong and smart Edge is a pussy," argument. If this was an iron man, submission, or something of that nature, Lesnar wins. Its not.

Problem is, Lesnar is strong enough to throw Edge around the ring like a toy and Edge is too much of a pussy to go under the barbed wire and leave the ring.

3. Weapons+Edge=victory. Though he hasn't won them all, he has one nore gimmick matches than Brock has matches.

That helped in the Hell in a Cell vs Taker, didn't it? Nope, it didn't. He got sent to hell. Guess what, I'm not sure if Brock Lesnar ever lost a match involving weapons or hardcore gimmicks.. Stretcher match? Nope. Biker Chain? Nope. Hell in a Cell? Nope.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Even if Lesnar were to move.. lotsa times.. Edge, would at most stumble and fall.. not into barbwire, though. He knows the surroundings better than you'd think. He'd understand how much space to give himself, and the only way I would foresee Edge going into the barbwire, is via Lesnar side-stepping.. then literally picking him up, and shoving him into it.

Edge's spear is often criticized. It's said to look weak and ineffective, which is partially true. In small matches against weak opponents, Edge kind of runs toward his opponent and sort of just falls into them, which looks bad. In big matches, his spear looks brutal. He bursts towards his opponent and jumps, taking them down and snapping their head against the mat. This is the type of spear he'd use against Brock Lesnar. Unfortunately, Will, if he were to miss, he'd be in mid air and unable to simply 'fall to the mat' and Edge would have a mouth full of barbed wire to deal with.

 

[justinsayne]

This post is just way to much of a gem for me to pass up

1. Edge>Lesnar.

Danm that's a brilliant fucking argument right there

2. I have yet to see anyone remotely rebutt Will without the"Nuh uh! Lesnar is strong and smart Edge is a pussy," argument. If this was an iron man, submission, or something of that nature, Lesnar wins. Its not.

A.) You obviously haven't read a single one of Shocky's post

B.)Lesnar is stronger and he's a hell of a lot smarter than people give him credit for, and Edge pretty much is a pussy, I'd love to see someone put together a convincing to arguement in Edge's favor WITHOUT PLAYING THE BULLSHIT ULTIMATE OPPORTUNIST card, cause it's quite simply a crock of shit, Edge fucking Vickie Guerrero won't help him at all in this match

3. Weapons+Edge=victory. Though he hasn't won them all, he has one nore gimmick matches than Brock has matches.

People have tried using weapons on Brock, it don't work, Taker delivered possibly the hardest chair shot I've ever seen on Brock, put a massive dent in the chair and Brock was still standing and fighting, weapons do nothing but piss the Brock off, Oh and BTW Brock has won EVERY gimmick match he has ever been in, Brocks win % in gimmick matches > than Edges

 

[Shocky]

I think that's the chair shot your talking about. This match was the Unforgiven match, I think, and ended in a draw.

Now where was I

Once again, he uses everything but the actual gimmick involved. My point on that aspect has been proven, and you proved it further by this.

Not to mention, the forklift he used was ideally the only way he felt he could win against the Big Show. Which also goes to show you, he doubts his own strength, despite knowing he's lifted Big Show for an F-5, countless times.

I can't see how questioning your strength against the big Show is anything but a smart way of looking at the match. If Brock tried to beat the Big Show with pure strength, chances are, he's walking out of Judgment Day a former world champion. Being completely aware of his surroundings and using his head is what won Brock Lesnar that match, not his raw power and mat skills.

I was more referring to 2003. While he also had his fair share of decent victories, over the likes of John Cena, (not yet the Cena we've come to know) Big Show, and Albert.. the fact is.. he lost the Rumble, dispite being the last entry, or at least one of the very last entries. And most importantly, he lost to Mr. McMahon.. MR. McMAHON!

That's not the Undertaker we know, who's a real bad ass.. that's a worn down, drained, and pathetic version. The same version, Lesnar faced.

Well, he was eliminated by Brock Lesnar, but that's neither here nor there...

People talk about the McMahon Michaels match as the biggest beat down in wrestling history, but people seem to forget the Undertaker busting Mcmahon open with a stiff shot in the opening minute of that match. McMahon got absolutey zero offenese in on that match. The Deadman was beat by Kane, again, not Mr. McMahon.

Once again, that's quite an impressive list of victories to losses. (not even going to dispute how tainted the victories may have been, because it's neither here, nor there)

Yet the fact is.. come year's end, when Taker faced Lesnar.. he wasn't the same Taker that was the Deadman. He wasn't the same Taker, that was the Undisputed Champion earlier that year. He was a shell of his former self, a beaten, broken, and arguably injured and hurting - old man.

I won't discount Lesnar's victories against him completely.. it still takes balls to do what Lesnar did to Taker, in HIAC.. but it wasn't against the same Undertaker that Shawn Michaels faced in HIAC, or that Mick Foley was damn near killed by in HIAC.. so there was quite a bit of difference..

And one that Edge has faced, as well.

You say Edge faced a Taker in his 40's.. but if you're going by kayfabe, age never mattered with the Deadman gimmick.. because the guy had the ability to randomly NO-SELL anything, especially toward the end of matches. And Edge defeated the Undertaker, is what should've been considered (at that time, for Taker, especially) his most important match - ever.. one in which Taker's career was on the line. And Edge won.

You'd be hardpressed to find any wrestlyer that had a five month run of facing off against the Rock, Flair, Austin, Hogan and Triple H, an dcoming out of it with a 4-1 victory. I'd daresay the Undertaker never had a run like that ever in his career. It wasn't until he ran into Brock Lesnar that he ran into a brick wall. Granted, Brock hadn't been in the ring with anyone like him, and in their first meeting, it was a draw. That being said, the great year that Taker had ended with a cominbation of him getting his ass handed to him by Brock, and then The Big Show picking off what was left 4 nights later.

I'll say that the Undertaker of 2002 was better suited to fight the Brock Lesnar of 2002, and the Undertaker of 2008 was better off fighting the Edge of 2008. I'd still feel fairly confident in believing that Brock Lesnar then would have had no problem with the Deadman of 2008. Taker lost a ton of weight, and became more of a mat wrestler instead of a brawler, something that plays right into Lesnar's hands. The list of guys that could possibly handle Lesnar keeping it on the mat is very small, and the Undertaker isn't one of thos eguys, even now.

Trying as hard as I can, to look at this match without knowing how Lesnar left the Company. (to go fail at playing Football, then whine that he couldn't go to an alternative Wrestling company)

I see this one way.. Lesnar will come in, unsure of the barbwire. Edge will come in, not wanting to be involved with it, yet knowing how it feels. Edge will bring with him back-up, and the ability to create an exit - to create space.

Lesnar will bring with him, the naive ways of a rookie, in which he'll throw everything he has at Edge instantly.. wearing himself down early, if he can't put Edge away quick.

Good, because you shouldn't bring all of the bagge into this thing, because it's really not relevant to the match, much like most of our Undertaker convo I suppose. Failing to make the NFL is no slight against lesnar, considering only 1600 positions are available in the world, and Brock was a collegiate wrestler, not a football player. Hell, former Heisman Trophy winners failed in teh NFL. Look at guys like Leon White, Dwayne Johnson, Ron Simmons, Bill Goldberg, you have a 12 time world champion, a 9 time world champion, the first black champion, and the biggest name in the end of WCW, and they were all failed NFL players. Brock did go to Japan, and had a good amount of success their as well.

Was Brock Lesnar cocky, he sure was, but he's shown the ability to think for himself on numerous occasions, and not simply use his overwhelming abilities. He's out thought veterans in their type of match, and used the enviornment to his advantage, nothing to suggest he won't do the same here.

And I simply fail to see how Brock Lesnar is going to gas out. This is the same Brock that was able to go for an hour and beat Kurt Angle in an Iron Man match. I'm not suggesting that Edge isn't capable of going that long as well ( fully believe he is) but I can't see Brock gassing out as you suggest.

Eddie Guerrero, Hardcore Holly, R.V.D, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle.. none of them were bigger, stronger, or meaner than Lesnar.. and they've all defeated him. Not in the same setting.. but once again, Lesnar's never been in this setting, so no one person can say he's a shoe-in to definitely win or lose, I suppose.

The fact is, being bigger, stronger and even meaner.. doesn't guarantee you a victory, when your opponent is a better mental master than you, and also knows how to use every possible gimmick known to man. (practically)

You might not like the way the match ends, it might end cheap and completely bogus and unfair.. but that's how Edge likes it. He loves to piss you off, and steal victories no one believes he should've got. This won't be any different.

See, that's stretching it with those names too. Eddie Guerrero, plus Bill Goldberg beat Brock Lesnar, so unless Edge has hired Goldberg to teach him how to properly hit the spear in this match, this isn't important. Chris Benoit, in a five on five Survivor Series match with a team of guys that didn't like Lesnar, was able to make him tap out. Edge doesn't have a submission in his arsenal to make Lesnar tap out, and when benoit had his one on one match for the title, Lesnar nearly broke him in half with the Brock Lock. RVD, won by DQ, because Heyman interfered. RVD hit a frog splash, sure, but nothign to suggest that Lesnar wouldn't kick out of said frog splash. He kicked out of the Swanton months before, and kicked out of Hogan's Leg drop week's later, so not out of the realm of possibility that Lesnar doesn't do the same here. And bob Holly, please, Lesnar broke the man's neck, and proceeded to kick him in said neck when he was trying to get up. When he got his one on one match, Lesnar kicked his ass again. I won't dispute Kurt Angle, but again, Edge doesn't have the mat skills or submissions to beat Brock like Angle can and did, plus Brock beat Angle as much as Angle beat Brock.

Again, I believe there is enough out there that shows Brock is every bit as capable and smart as Edge in a wrestling ring, but Brock also brings the Raw power and skill, and not giving a shit about his opponent attitude that he can not only beat Edge, but possibly hurt him bad in this match.

Yes, Brock can't be a 9 time world champion in 3 years, won't dispute that, but I remember what happened the last time Brock was in the ring with a 9 time world champion in a three year span, and he beat the Rock at Summerslam to win his first WWE title, an undisputed title at that.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Good, even though I'm pretty sure you and I are the only ones reading htis at this point.

Not true, Justin seems to think you've been owning me left and right. While I'd greatly say, with slight exception to NSL, you're the only individual giving actual rebuttals.. I think Justin's views on who's winning this is slightly eschewed. Just on the off-note of his Lesnar love, and Edge illusion.

You know, I actually did something I should have done at the very beginning of this thing, but was toos tupid to, looked up the date of when Rebellion was. October 26, 6 days after Brock Lesnar just went to war witht he Undertaker in the Hell in the Cell. Edge should have picked Brock Lesnar off in this match, much like the Big Show shelved the Undertaker on Smackdown that week. Edge had everything going for him at this point, a Brock lesnar that just finished his feud with the Undertaker less then a week before, Paul Heyman as a target for pinfall to win the match, and yet still Edge wasn't able to get the job done. Again, I stick by my that was Edge's best shot argument.

I could've told you the time and date in which this match took place, mainly because I was assuming it'd be brought up. So, because of this - I give you the logical explanation on why it didn't work in Edge's favor.. despite all the advantages you claim Edge held.

You must understand Edge's position in the Company, comparable to Brock Lesnar's at 'said' time. Edge was a mid-carder, just coming up into the Single's division, alone. Not counting this also being his First Main Event match on (any) Pay per view. He'd been a single's Wrestler for a solid year at this point. (while he started as a single's wrestler, he made his name as a tag team specialist, first) So to say he was still somewhat "green" in big time matches, is an understatement. Lesnar had been Main Eventing for about 3-months, defeating bigger names who've made more impact, at this point.

So the true question is, while Edge may have had more of an advantage.. and been in the business longer, why couldn't Lesnar put away the mid-carder quicker.. when he's handled guys like Hulk Hogan, the Undertaker, and The Rock with such better ease?

Answer: Because even as a mid-carder, who was just then experiencing his First Major Main Event, his first Major Heavyweight Championship match - Edge gave Lesnar all he could handle, and it only ended by way of Heyman's help, a steel chair, and Lesnar just barely having more of the edge (no pun intended) because he'd dealt with that scenario (being in the Main Event, big time matches) better.

This match-up is much different. This match-up pits the same Brock Lesnar, against a much more prone and knowledgeable Edge. Edge, as a mid-carder almost defeated Lesnar. What do you think Edge, as a Main Eventer knowing how to take every underhanded move to win, would do?

Well the outside interference thing is irrelevant, and I don't like to use it in my arguments, so at least we agree that that arguement is probably a dumb one. Both guys are known for their heel work, and both guys have had annoying heel managers that have helped them out in a jam, or been over zealous enough to get involved in a match and cost their guy the victory.

First, I have to say I'm going to take this - then detour/side track it onto something more relevant.

Now then, In all honesty, I only use the interference angle because others bring it up. I always understood this Tournament to be a one-on-one style of thing, without any type of interference.. period.

If it goes on that note, however, you have to look at the Edge who's won Championships without help. Take the most recent, Elimination Chamber match.

Edge defied history. He was in the first Elimination Chamber, and fought Jeff Hardy to what, the full 5 minutes.. then was rolled up and eliminated. (yes, a roll-up got him) But what I'm referring to, is Edge's sadistic nature, and opportunistic mind-set.. that brought him to the second Elimination Chamber.

Where he defeated 5 other guys, all by himself, to become World Heavyweight Champion. Edge out-wrestled EVERYONE.. on-top of the fact he'd already wrestled once that night. (5 minutes, but still) He defeated John Cena, Chris Jericho, Mike Knox, Kane & Rey Mysterio..

While I wouldn't say much for Knox, or even Mysterio.. despite having arguably his greatest match to date, in that Chamber. Jericho is almost equal to Edge through athleticness. Cena is the ultimate "come from behind, to win" face. And finally, Kane is dominate in matches like this. Yet Edge out-lasted all of them.. and won. Showing he can handle pressure, and overcome severe odds.

Lesnar has never to my knowledge, defeated 5 guys at once before. He's never even been in that style of match before. So how could you possibly assume Lesnar would have the same type of ruthless aggression, and sadistic nature that Edge would have?

The problem with Edge post injuries and more of the cerbral version is taht when he goes at guys physically, he can be beaten. Yes, he was smiling in his Hell in the Cell match where the Undertaker had Brock intimidated at the beginning, but in the end, the more initimidated, humbled Lesnar was able to pick up a W, where as the confident Edge took the L.

But once again, I find myself repeating myself. They didn't face the same Undertaker.

Lesnar faced the Undertaker that wouldn't "sit-up", or act like the original Undertaker. (the Taker, Edge faced) Lesnar also faced an Undertaker, who I kept forgetting had an already major injury. His hand/arm was in a cast, how is that not a target and putting the Undertaker at not 100%??

On the flip side, Edge lost to an Undertaker hell bent on revenge, and seeking total domination and destruction of the Rated R Superstar. But he didn't dominate Edge, he only just barely beat him.. in arguably one of the best Hell in a Cell matches to date.

Lesnar picked up a W over a guy with an injury, and less than 100% of his abilities and "powers". (ie. Undead powers, I guess you'd say)

The one time where Edge was really dominante in a nasty way in a match was with Matt Hardy, and that was about as personal as it got between two wrestlers. If Edge could get himself that psyched up for this match (which I don't think it's possible, no female involved) then he could go all barbaric on Lesnar. I still think trying to match power with Lesnar is a dumb move though.

Edge wouldn't try to match Lesnar's power. You're absolutely right, it is dumb.. and Edge isn't by any means stupid. He'd avoid matching power with power at all costs.

But this silly, naive argument that most are giving that's pissing me off more by the minute that Lesnar will just rag-doll and toy with Edge by massively over-powering him, is just majorly fucking stupid.

Lesnar couldn't over-power Edge, much less rag-doll him and dominate him, in their UK Pay per view match.. why on earth do people assume he'd have a better chance at doing it, against an Edge who's put on more muscle and weight?

As for Edge's sadistic nature.. look at any and every one of Edge's gimmick matches since becoming the Rated R Superstar. His T.L.C against Flair, his multiple matches against Matt Hardy. His multiple matches against Cena, Taker, or Batista.. all gimmick matches, mind you..

Edge has become more and more violent with time, increasing his sadistic nature each time he steps foot into another gimmick match. So who's to say Edge wouldn't be completely sick and twisted come this match.. knowing full well, it might need to be what it'd take to win?

The only person that has ever used a stretcher as a weapon was when Big Show had Mysterio tied down to it, and flung him into the ringpost. Other then ramming heach other with the board and then hitting each otehr in the back.

I don't really have anything of note to say to this.. except that Big Show/Mysterio moment still goes down in my head as one of the greatest spots EVER.

Wait, (after thinking about this more and coming back to it) I do have something to say regarding using the stretcher as a weapon. Look at actual E.C.W footage. Rob Van Dam and Sabu had a stretcher match, in which both men used it multiple times as a weapon of sorts.

Edge is more prone to be that type of extreme/hardcore Wrestler, than Lesnar would be.

I mustask then, how does one properly use the Hell in the Cell. It's essentially a hardcore match confiend to a steel cage with a roof. Brock used weapons that were properly available for him to use in that match,a nd I believe we got the typical javelin spear throw. Brock pinned the Undertaker's arm and head against the cage and proceeded to pound him like a railroad stake against the cage. Aside from ripping a piece of the cage off the wall, I don't know how your supposed to use the cage anymroe.

Ask Undertaker. Better yet, as Mick Foley, how a Cell can be properly used against You, as a major - violent - weapon.

The Lesnar/Taker Cell was the first Cell match, that didn't involve either guy leaving the Cell to go to the top. Why? Lesnar wanted out of the Cell, badly, yet he never bothered to study on all the ways everyone else before him in similar situations have destroyed the sides of the Cell, to escape.

That proves that Lesnar goes study the matches he goes into.. he just recklessly goes into them, blind. He does that here, and he'll fail.

Edge and Taker didn't leave the Cell, to my knowledge, either.. but they did involve a hell of a lot more weapons inside the Cell, than Lesnar/Taker did. Which also shows Edge has a more sadistic side to him, than Lesnar, when it comes to weapons.

Who do you think is gonna be more prone to wanting to use the Barbwire as a weapon, and not just a surrounding fixture? Edge.. that's who.

there is a ton more to go over, and I will when I get back, but I got to nieces parties to get ready for, finish this later.

Have fun.. I'll be waiting.

By the way, for those of you wondering.. I haven't voted Edge - because I'm doing what I consider to be the right thing and that's weighing all my options and viewing all the arguments, to make sure it's the definite right choice.

Will I vote Edge, more than likely, especially because no one is coming up with an argument I can't rebuttal. However, my point in this - is people have already begun blindly voting Lesnar - yet they aren't proving why, through reasoning that I can't logically dispute. I'd hope everyone who hasn't yet voted - takes the time to logically look this over, and not blindly, stupidly, or foolishly just vote because they assume.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm getting tired of reading that Brock Lesnar lost to Hardcore Holly. In their first match, Lesnar was attempting a powerbomb and Holly sandbagged the move, not lifting his waist and making it impossible for Lesnar to finish the move. So, Lesnar dropped him on his head and broke his neck. In their match at the Rumble, Lesnar made short work of him and moved on.

Short work? Right.. that's why Lesnar was afraid of Holly, even after he beat him.. huh. Holly.. you know, the guy who was a Race Car driver wannabe.

[youtube]9IIppTBumlU[/youtube]

Here's the short work you claim Lesnar made of Holly. Now, tell me.. at what point was Lesnar making short work of Holly? When Lesnar was getting his ass handed to him, at the very opening bell on the outside of the ring.. or when Holly locked in a Full Nelson, refusing to let go, and had Lesnar tapping on the outside like a little bitch?

Holly's emotions beat him in this match.. not Lesnar. And in truth, I have to thank you for making me look this match up. Because this contest shows once again how Lesnar isn't strong, nor is he sadistic. He's a pussy himself.

He locked in a bear hug, and a leg-lock throughout 80% of this match. Wow, talk about sadistic. He F-5'ed a guy, who was full of rage, wanting only one thing - to break Lesnar's neck.

Holly hit the Alabama Slam, but instead of even attempting a cover, he went for a Full Nelson to attempt breaking his neck - and once again, had Lesnar tapping like a bitch begging for mercy.

So.. how was this easy, and short, again?

I'm not playing this Stupid and naive, I'm just putting forth an very likely scenario in which Lesnar would win, like HE ALMOST ALWAYS FUCKING DOES, you are the one being stupid and naive with you blind biased love for Edge, it's not obviously not allowing you to see things clearly

Lesnar almost always won.. against guys similar to Edge's style, and size. Once again.. Eddie Guerrero, Rob Van Dam, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit.. Lesnar's had issues, major problems and trouble beating all of them.

In fact, Lesnar only seemed dominate - against the truly one dimentional athlete's like the Big Show. The guys that are big, powerful, but slow moving and unable to counter a lot of stuff.

Dude, WTF, 95% of the time Always?!, it's one or the other, either he slide out of it 95% of the time or he slide out of it all the time, not that it matter because he likely won't be sliding out of anything after Brock tears his ass apart, it doesn't take Brock long to whip off an F5, Edge won't have time to slide off, and if he does all he'll accomplish is further pissing off Brock

It normally doesn't take Cena long to hit an F-U (*cough* excuse me, Attitude Adjuster *cough*) either.. but Edge has managed to escape that time and time again.. oh, and before you try and use the whole Lesnar's strong excuse.. Cena's just as strong, and done just as many things as Lesnar's done.

Oh wait, fuck me.. Cena's done more. He's F-U.. err, Attitude Adjust--er--ered.. whatever.. he's done that fireman's carry drop on Big Show, and Edge, at the same time. (thus, if Edge can counter out of Cena's strength - surely, he can handle Lesnar's)

Oh, and one more thing.. what's this "he'll only piss Lesnar off more" bit? Geez, Justin.. this is the tireless arguments I face from people about this issue, when I call them (you) naive. It won't piss Lesnar off any more or less. He won't suddenly go ballistic, just because Edge wiggled free.. he'll just do what he always does.. continue with the match.

Where you people get this wild idea that Lesnar's gonna fucking go Incredible Hulk on people, with attitude, is beyond me. Show me ONE piece of footage, not including that of a kid or a senior citizen where he's went nuts on someone. Just one.. ONE.

You can't seriously think that an Edge-a-matic is gonna keep Brock down do ya?

Never said it would.. it's not meant to, but it can surprise someone quick enough to gain a 3-count. It has before, and much like you believe it stands to reason Lesnar could do all this other imaginary shit.. why couldn't Edge's edge-a-match shock Lesnar for a 3-count?

Once again.. it could happen.

So wait, are you suggesting that if edge were able to slide out of the F5 that he'd bounce off the ropes and hit a spear?, let me say that again Edge would bounce off the barbwire ropes and hit a spear, and you think he'd get the win?, yeah no... just no, if Edge tried to bounce of the ropes that right there would be the end to any attempt to spear Brock after the counter, he'd hit the ropes and instantly feel the pain of barbwire tearing his skin apaart an that would be it, Brock would pick him up and F5 his ass to hell

Ugh.. Edge wouldn't bounce off the barbwire, because he'd know it's there. You say this, assuming Edge is an idiot. He thinks better than you apparently do. He'd back up, then spear.. not bounce back off "barbwire ropes".

Isn't this kinda the point, to provide and argument and scenario in which your guy would win?, how the fuck does that make ME stupid and Naive?!?, the fact that you have to resort to name calling just shows that your panicking cause you know this could very well be the end for your precious wittle Edgey

I've already addressed my fears of this being the "end" for Edge, but not because it should be.. because of outside reasons that have no business being discussed in this thread. Plain and simple.

I've explained numerous times over again how Edge can, and would win this match.. yet I could literally continue to type books.. and it won't change naive individuals minds (like yourself) from continuing to vote Lesnar.

Let me reword this.. you aren't naive in believing in Lesnar, anymore than I am, for believing in Edge. You're naive, for voting prematurely, just assuming and basing everything off the primitive basics of..

Lezn@R r tuff, 3dge iz puzsy, L3sn@r willll KILLLLLLL hem.

My point? I haven't voted for Edge yet. If someone can remotely knock me off my game, and out-debate me, solidly proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lesnar WOULD, WILL, and without question definitely WIN this match.. I'd vote Lesnar.

But I've shown how Edge could do all of that.. and with exception to Shocky, and again - slightly - NSL, no one has even come close to giving me strong examples of anything. And I'm currently matching Shocky, and have put NSL in his place many times already. So I'm still waiting to be proven wrong.

your scenario has Edge flinging himself into barbwire and then hitting a spear how in the blue fuck does that make sense, and when the hell has that ever eeeeeeeeeeeever happened before?!?!?

You said this already. I don't even have the slightest clue where I posted Edge will bounce off barbwire replaced ropes, and spear Lesnar for the win.. but if you can redirect me, to that exact type of quote.. I'll be glad to figure out why I would've said it.

Until then, I'm sure you're trying to find any number of ways to turn my wording around, to make it sound illogical.. when truth is, you likely just can't face what I truly said, as being truthful.

We've seen Brock F5 people out of the ring, we've seen Brock F5 people into the steel ring posts, and through tables, it stands to reason if Brock saw barbwire he would likely be salivating at the thought of F5ing someone on to it

Agreed on the fact that it's possible he could do it, since he's F-5'ed people on other things.

However, once again.. show me one piece of video footage, not including a one legged kid, or an aging immortal, in which Lesnar was even half as sadistic and violent as you keep rambling on about him being.

JUST ONE.. fuck man, one.. one video.. ONE.. find it, prove Lesnar's sadisticness.. DO ITTTTTTT I've been begging for it.. DO IITTTTT.

He's missed adn run into the ring posts, Rey has manged to counter the spear and use Edge's own momemtum to set up a 619, seems pretty reassonalbe for people to assume Brock would be able to just set out of the way as Edge's is attempting to spear him, Edge's momentum could carry him into the barbwire ropes

Uhm.. unless you're now trying to say Lesnar is gonna hurricanrana or head scissors Edge's head, into the barbwire ropes, this wouldn't happen.

Edge could very well miss, but he'd stumble - like I said - not fall face, chest first into barbwire.

Furthermore, you're playing this out in the assumption (bad assumption) that Edge would be stupid enough to think this couldn't happen. In a match like this, I guarantee he'd take extra precaution.

And finally.. to everyone else claiming Edge is a pussy.. fucking watch the hardcore match against Mick Foley. A pussy wouldn't sadistically spear someone through the ropes, into a flaming table.. hurting BOTH MEN. So seriously, that argument is tiring and completely fucking idiotic.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Here's the short work you claim Lesnar made of Holly. Now, tell me.. at what point was Lesnar making short work of Holly? When Lesnar was getting his ass handed to him, at the very opening bell on the outside of the ring.. or when Holly locked in a Full Nelson, refusing to let go, and had Lesnar tapping on the outside like a little bitch?

Holly's emotions beat him in this match.. not Lesnar. And in truth, I have to thank you for making me look this match up. Because this contest shows once again how Lesnar isn't strong, nor is he sadistic. He's a pussy himself.

He locked in a bear hug, and a leg-lock throughout 80% of this match. Wow, talk about sadistic. He F-5'ed a guy, who was full of rage, wanting only one thing - to break Lesnar's neck.

Holly hit the Alabama Slam, but instead of even attempting a cover, he went for a Full Nelson to attempt breaking his neck - and once again, had Lesnar tapping like a bitch begging for mercy.

So.. how was this easy, and short, again?

Lesnar beat him in seven minutes, which is pretty quickly. I think it was mentioned in the Liger thread, but that match was a fluke. Hardcore Holly took every bright moment in his career and poured it into that one match. He's never, ever fought like that in his life before, or after. There isn't an explanation for that match. The fact of the matter is, in the end, Lesnar won, just as he did in 97% of the matches he's had in his career.

Edit: As for being sadistic, here:

[youtube]4M4W11Q0PGs[/youtube]

Holly was being a jerk in the ring, so he dropped him on his head to tell him not to pull that crap with him. That's not even kayfabe sadisticism, it's real life. And I couldn't find the video, but he slammed an oxygen tank on Undertaker's arm to break it on purpose. That's pretty good.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Shocky, you'll have to excuse me.. I cut most of your reply apart and left it out. (the bits about Taker, and Football/Japan) If you'd like me to rebuttal them, I'm sure I could find something to say..

But I read something in your post about how none of that is neither here, nor there, regarding this match.. so I figured to help stay better on track, we could just get to the bare minimum of Edge vs. Brock Lesnar.

I can't see how questioning your strength against the big Show is anything but a smart way of looking at the match. If Brock tried to beat the Big Show with pure strength, chances are, he's walking out of Judgment Day a former world champion. Being completely aware of his surroundings and using his head is what won Brock Lesnar that match, not his raw power and mat skills.

I'm not disputing, or meaning to anyways, Lesnar's neglect to attempt matching strength against the Big Show. However, this is one half trying to shut other's up about how Lesnar is this strong, ulti-powered S.O.B.. he's not. He's strong, but not strong enough that it's gonna help him dominate Edge.

Once again (I'm hoping for the last time, but doubt it) Edge/Lesnar has happened.. and Edge wasn't over-powered or out-matched by Lesnar, when Edge was a mid-carder not in all honesty at that time IN Brock's league. So if Lesnar couldn't over-power Edge then what makes anyone assume or think he could now.. since Edge's added more muscle, and weight?

Was Brock Lesnar cocky, he sure was, but he's shown the ability to think for himself on numerous occasions, and not simply use his overwhelming abilities. He's out thought veterans in their type of match, and used the enviornment to his advantage, nothing to suggest he won't do the same here.

He hasn't been as sadistic as Edge in 'said' environments though. Edge takes gimmick matches to a whole new level, and I'm assuming that is something you wouldn't argue. If it is, I can prove it.. especially comparable to the few gimmick matches Lesnar's had.

Lesnar has more power and strength than Edge, yes, but not enough to dominate or rag-doll him. I'd say it'd be more like Angle against Big Show logic. Edge doesn't have the brute power to match strength with Lesnar, but he has enough ground game, and technical skill, to put Lesnar down.

And yes, Lesnar is very much like Kurt Angle. Surprisingly, a lot of people are ignoring that Lesnar can wrestle as much as they want to think he can brawl. I'd argue that he can wrestle better than he can brawl, but this leads us back to the theory that Edge OWNED Kurt Angle on almost every encounter they had.. why wouldn't Edge be able to take his style and focus from those matches, and put it into this one against Brock's wrestling skills?

While adapting to the gimmick, and using his more sadistic nature to out-do Lesnar there, as well?

Edge can match Lesnar through Wrestling skills, because he matched Angle. And Angle is arguably the greatest technical Wrestler alive. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting on that 'one' video that proves to me Lesnar is more sadistic than Edge, in gimmick matches. Beating a kid to a bloody pulp, or breaking an aging legend's ribs.. isn't sadistic by way of matching against someone in a more one-on-one, fair style match-up.

Lesnar's best sadistic nature - was Hell in a Cell, against Taker. And Edge proved he was more sadistic, by how much tougher, and seemingly uncaring he was - to take punishment, and dish it out. (as opposed to running scared, trying to escape)

And I simply fail to see how Brock Lesnar is going to gas out. This is the same Brock that was able to go for an hour and beat Kurt Angle in an Iron Man match. I'm not suggesting that Edge isn't capable of going that long as well ( fully believe he is) but I can't see Brock gassing out as you suggest.

I think I over-stepped my bounds on thinking Lesnar would gas himself. I take that back. I think what I was trying for, was the understanding that Lesnar is a bigger man, and puts more force and focus on giving everything he has - up front, quickly.

Edge is the type that tries to reserve his engines, yet keeps giving enough to stay one step ahead most of the time. He makes sure, he's constantly got enough left - incase he needs it to escape a very dangerous situation. (like on Lesnar's shoulders, or when he gets tangled in barbwire)

Lesnar has shown that he doesn't study matches of gimmicks, by how he couldn't figure out how to get out of the HIAC.. meanwhile, Edge does study gimmick matches.. and adapts, very quickly, I might add.

See, that's stretching it with those names too. Eddie Guerrero, plus Bill Goldberg beat Brock Lesnar, so unless Edge has hired Goldberg to teach him how to properly hit the spear in this match, this isn't important.

But Goldberg wasn't Wrestling Lesnar the entire match. Guerrero had to stay in it, to win it. And Lesnar still lost. That's the point, is it not?

Chris Benoit, in a five on five Survivor Series match with a team of guys that didn't like Lesnar, was able to make him tap out. Edge doesn't have a submission in his arsenal to make Lesnar tap out, and when benoit had his one on one match for the title, Lesnar nearly broke him in half with the Brock Lock.

Two things here..

1. Benoit still made him tap, and using the argument that it was because he had 4 other teammates is kinda poor. Lesnar had 4 other teammates, (much bigger and stronger than Team Angle, I might add) as well.

Bottomline, Lesnar wasn't in the match the whole time.. Benoit had been worn down in this match worse.. yet still made Lesnar tap, because he caught him in a surprising, compromising position. Edge can do the same, especially when you factor in how Edge can easily replace a crossface with barbwire around the face..

If Lesnar tapped to Benoit's hands.. think how much damage Edge will do, when he wraps barbwire he's cut away from the ropes around Lesnar's face.

And Edge does have submissions - the Edge-u-cator, (a reverse sharpshooter) and he's been using the actual sharpshooter lately, too. So it stands to reason (as others would say) that he could make Lesnar tap.

Lesnar also has a "weakness" so-to-speak, for submissions. In the Rumble match, Holly had him tapping like crazy on the outside of the ring. From a Full-Nelson, that Lesnar by all rights should've easily broken. If he'd tap to something so simple.. how easy would it seemingly be, for Edge to make Lesnar tap in a more complex, hard to escape finisher?

RVD, won by DQ, because Heyman interfered. RVD hit a frog splash, sure, but nothign to suggest that Lesnar wouldn't kick out of said frog splash. He kicked out of the Swanton months before, and kicked out of Hogan's Leg drop week's later, so not out of the realm of possibility that Lesnar doesn't do the same here.

It's a possibility.. but we'll never know. Fortunately.. R.V.D still won. And more importantly, just like Guerrero.. my point in this, is that the smaller, less powerful guy.. stayed in the match, and had Lesnar possibly beaten so much, that Lesnar's own manager felt he was going to lose.

And bob Holly, please, Lesnar broke the man's neck, and proceeded to kick him in said neck when he was trying to get up. When he got his one on one match, Lesnar kicked his ass again.

Go watch the video.. the match is short, 8 minutes I believe.. but Lesnar's only two moves were a bear-hug/leg lock, and the F-5. Holly dominated Lesnar otherwise.. be it from beating the shit out of Lesnar at the beginning of the match, or delivering the Alabama Slam, then locking in a Full-Nelson that made Lesnar cry like a baby, and tap like a bitch.

Lesnar didn't kick his ass, he survived his ass.

I won't dispute Kurt Angle, but again, Edge doesn't have the mat skills or submissions to beat Brock like Angle can and did, plus Brock beat Angle as much as Angle beat Brock.

Doesn't he, though? He's not as technically sound as Kurt Angle.. but Edge has defeated Kurt Angle on more occasions than Angle's defeated Edge. So by that understanding, and by the logic that Angle could defeat Lesnar just as much.. wouldn't it give Edge a bigger advantage to defeating Lesnar?

Again, I believe there is enough out there that shows Brock is every bit as capable and smart as Edge in a wrestling ring, but Brock also brings the Raw power and skill, and not giving a shit about his opponent attitude that he can not only beat Edge, but possibly hurt him bad in this match.

This is going back to me asking for proof of Lesnar being as evil, or sadistic, as people are claiming. He's really not. Unless it's against weaker, one-sided (or legged) opponents.

Edge has been more sadistic, and deadly, against individuals BIGGER than him. So it stands very much to reason, that Edge won't just match Lesnar's sadisticness, but top it, and hurt Lesnar badly.

Some may be laughing at the thought, but those are the same individuals I refer to as naive and silly-minded. Edge holds more skill at hurting people, than Lesnar does.. and video proof of this, is relevant and known of.

Once again.. look up videos of Edge's sadistic nature against Cena, Undertaker, Matt & Jeff Hardy, William Regal, Ric Flair, Rey Mysterio and others. Edge won't just hurt you.. he'll put you out. Lesnar's only done that to three people.. Zach Gowen, Hulk Hogan & Hardcore Holly.

One of which returned for revenge, and owned Lesnar (just didn't defeat him) another was old, and the final had one leg. Hardly the same in regard to Edge's accomplishments in sadisticness..

Yes, Brock can't be a 9 time world champion in 3 years, won't dispute that, but I remember what happened the last time Brock was in the ring with a 9 time world champion in a three year span, and he beat the Rock at Summerslam to win his first WWE title, an undisputed title at that.

Once again, just like you tried to dispel the logic of Lesnar's losses earlier.. Lesnar didn't defeat the same Rock that became a star in Professional Wrestling. He defeated a returning Hollywood Actor, that the fans knew wasn't the same guy.

 

[justinsayne]

How is Brock sadistic, here lets see a few examples...

[youtube]lzSRA-dGlTg[/youtube]

[youtube]LVJbrNYuqOQ[/youtube]

[youtube]x8v5K2kmNoE[/youtube]

[youtube]rEKqgpxZzKk[/youtube]

[youtube]NYzh0hz3l_E[/youtube]

That's just a few examples, I'll respond to your post later Will but as for the whole Brock isn't strong shit you're trying to feed people...

[youtube]Oyi0X-rwUg8[/youtube]

IDK, I'm thinking you have to be pretty damn strong to powerbomb the fucking Big Show

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Lesnar beat him in seven minutes, which is pretty quickly.

And Edge beat Cena and the Undertaker, both, in under 5 minutes. Point being?

I guess your point is; it doesn't matter what happens in the match - just who wins it. Remember that, in knowing just what I said, about how Edge can even win matches - against bigger, badder opponents - quicker.

*awaits the whole "but edge cheated/took opportunity/had someone else beat them down first" arguments*

I think it was mentioned in the Liger thread, but that match was a fluke. Hardcore Holly took every bright moment in his career and poured it into that one match.

Hardly. Holly's had tougher, more violent matches against Al Snow. This is trailing way off the subject of this match, but the point I'm making is Holly wasn't pouring everything he had into that match - to believe so, is stupid.

Holly took the fight to Lesnar, showing that your precious powerful Lesnar, couldn't even handle being beaten by - what'd you call it - a fluke?

He's never, ever fought like that in his life before, or after.

Yes, he has. Once again - trailing off subject of this match - but go watch any of Holly's hardcore matches against Al Snow, and you'll see him fight even harder, even better.

Emotions carried Holly through his Lesnar/Rumble match. And with exception of a bear hug/leg lock, and an F-5, Lesnar didn't do shit.. except tap like a bitch on the outside of the ring, from a Full Nelson.

There isn't an explanation for that match. The fact of the matter is, in the end, Lesnar won, just as he did in 97% of the matches he's had in his career.

GREAT POINT!

So, by this logic, the fact of the matter is, in the end, Edge will win this match - because 99% of the time, Edge wins every single gimmick match he's involved in.

Edit: As for being sadistic, here:

[youtube]4M4W11Q0PGs[/youtube]

Holly was being a jerk in the ring, so he dropped him on his head to tell him not to pull that crap with him. That's not even kayfabe sadisticism, it's real life. And I couldn't find the video, but he slammed an oxygen tank on Undertaker's arm to break it on purpose. That's pretty good.

Oh yeah.. that's real sadistic.. nothing like this, right..

Edge con-chair-to's Flair
[youtube]slpxAvq9PWk[/youtube]

Edge damn near kills Matt Hardy
[youtube]2WQZam90-TE[/youtube]

And that's not counting all the times he's handed the Undertaker, John Cena, or countless other's.. their ass.. when they try to fuck with Edge, in gimmick matches.

Oh, and the whole "that's not even kayfabe, it's real life".. Edge's sadisticness against Matt Hardy > Lesnar's reply at showing Holly how to not go stiff.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

How is Brock sadistic, here lets see a few examples...

[youtube]lzSRA-dGlTg[/youtube]

[youtube]LVJbrNYuqOQ[/youtube]

[youtube]x8v5K2kmNoE[/youtube]

[youtube]rEKqgpxZzKk[/youtube]

[youtube]NYzh0hz3l_E[/youtube]

That's just a few examples, I'll respond to your post later Will but as for the whole Brock isn't strong shit you're trying to feed people...

[youtube]Oyi0X-rwUg8[/youtube]

IDK, I'm thinking you have to be pretty damn strong to powerbomb the fucking Big Show

Oh, Justin, you're so right.. Lesnar's sadisticness comes from Albert not knowing how to fucking spin out of an F-5. Wow, that Lesnar.. way to not train Albert how to fall correctly. NEXT..

The Cena/ring post spot was pretty good.. but Edge's sadistic nature against Matt Hardy tops that and then some.

I couldn't help but notice a video with Gowen in it.. lawlz, even when I repeatedly explain to post videos EXCEPT that one.. you still fail.

And regarding the powerbomb to the Big Show.. I wasn't saying Lesnar wasn't strong, but I'm sure Edge could match it in his own right.. wait, what's that? Show me how, you say? Why sure, Justin.. here ya go..

[youtube]53yj_i0RypA[/youtube]

[youtube]vhhyZXdEBkk&feature=related[/youtube]

It's not a Powerbomb, but it proves Edge can do the same similar things Lesnar can. (ie. Beat the Big Show, with a power move)

And Not once, but twice. Also the second one, was good enough for a 3-count and then some.. Guess what, Justin.. it's like a premonition.. of Lesnar's future. A chair-shot to the throat, (minus bouncing off the ropes, of course ) a spear later and Edge moving on to the next round.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

I guess your point is; it doesn't matter what happens in the match - just who wins it. Remember that, in knowing just what I said, about how Edge can even win matches - against bigger, badder opponents - quicker.

The thing is, he also loses them much more frequently.

Hardly. Holly's had tougher, more violent matches against Al Snow. This is trailing way off the subject of this match, but the point I'm making is Holly wasn't pouring everything he had into that match - to believe so, is stupid.

Are you comparing Brock Lesnar to Al Snow?

Holly took the fight to Lesnar, showing that your precious powerful Lesnar, couldn't even handle being beaten by - what'd you call it - a fluke?

He wasn't beaten though, was he?

Yes, he has. Once again - trailing off subject of this match - but go watch any of Holly's hardcore matches against Al Snow, and you'll see him fight even harder, even better.

Again, Brock Lesnar is not Al Snow. He's seventeen miles ahead of Al Snow.

Emotions carried Holly through his Lesnar/Rumble match. And with exception of a bear hug/leg lock, and an F-5, Lesnar didn't do shit.. except tap like a bitch on the outside of the ring, from a Full Nelson.

You say he was tapping, I say he was pounding the floor to pump himself up. Prove me wrong.

GREAT POINT!

So, by this logic, the fact of the matter is, in the end, Edge will win this match - because 99% of the time, Edge wins every single gimmick match he's involved in.

See, it's funny you say that. Because Edge has lost tag-team ladder matches (which I won't say anything about because they are not singles losses), TLC to Cena, HIAC to Undertaker, has been eliminated by Shawn Michaels and Jeff Hardy in Elimination Chamber matches, drew a hardcore match with Matt Hardy and lost a steel cage against him, lost to Cena with Foley as special guest ref, lost to Cena in a steel cage, etc... I could go on and on. His gimmick win percentage is hardly 50%, if that. Brock Lesnar's is 100%.

Oh yeah.. that's real sadistic.. nothing like this, right..

Edge con-chair-to's Flair
[youtube]slpxAvq9PWk[/youtube]

Edge damn near kills Matt Hardy
[youtube]2WQZam90-TE[/youtube]

And that's not counting all the times he's handed the Undertaker, John Cena, or countless other's.. their ass.. when they try to fuck with Edge, in gimmick matches.

He still never pushed a kid with one leg down the stairs, F-5'd him into the ringpost in front of his mother and beat him up while he was on a stretcher. If you ask for examples outside of Gowen, give examples outside of Matt Hardy. Thanks.

Oh, and the whole "that's not even kayfabe, it's real life".. Edge's sadisticness against Matt Hardy > Lesnar's reply at showing Holly how to not go stiff.

Lesnar would've screwed Kurt's wife. I'm sure he'd bang Shelton's girlfriend too.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

The thing is, he also loses them much more frequently.

Yeah, PYT, the thing is.. that happens when you're in the Wrestling business longer than 2 years then come to realize it's too much for you to handle.

Edge has dealt with a Decade (plus) of wins and losses. Lesnar won more than lost in the span of 2 years, but decided the business, and schedule, was too much for him.. and ultimately lost his most important match.. his last. (against a guy who was also leaving, on the same night - so claiming he lost because he was leaving, is a piss bucket argument)

Are you comparing Brock Lesnar to Al Snow?

If you can find where I said that, sure. Otherwise, when you're finished talking out of your back-side, and trying to put words in my mouth.. I'd love to continue putting you in your place.

What I said was that Hardcore Holly has fought harder, and more violently, against the likes of Al Snow. (not Lesnar is like Snow) That was also in reply to your assumption that Holly gave everything he had, in that one match against Lesnar.. than any other match, in his entire career. It was an incorrect assumption, and I proved you wrong on it.

Again, Brock Lesnar is not Al Snow. He's seventeen miles ahead of Al Snow.

I'm glad you can tell the difference.

You say he was tapping, I say he was pounding the floor to pump himself up. Prove me wrong.

The floor?

[youtube]9IIppTBumlU[/youtube]

6:28 mark on...

When they go to the outside, show me where floor's are in mid-air, which is where Lesnar was desperately tapping. Also take note of how Holly almost snapped Lesnar's spin in half, by grape-vining his legs around Lesnar's, pulling him to the ground.

Consider yourself - Proven WRONG!

See, it's funny you say that. Because Edge has lost tag-team ladder matches (which I won't say anything about because they are not singles losses), TLC to Cena, HIAC to Undertaker, has been eliminated by Shawn Michaels and Jeff Hardy in Elimination Chamber matches, drew a hardcore match with Matt Hardy and lost a steel cage against him, lost to Cena with Foley as special guest ref, lost to Cena in a steel cage, etc... I could go on and on. His gimmick win percentage is hardly 50%, if that. Brock Lesnar's is 100%.

Really? Oye.. fine..

Edge has won against the follow in gimmick matches...

MITB: Christian, Benoit, Jericho, Benjamin, Kane
T.L.C: Hardys, Flair, Taker
Street Fight: Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Big Show
Last Man Standing: Cena
Ladder: Hardys, Rob Van Dam* (could be mistaken on RVD)
Steel Cage: Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Christian

I'm pretty sure I'm even missing numerous matches and moments. Possibly even gimmick matches.. but I think my point has been made.

Lesnar has been in exactly how many gimmick matches? Iron Man, HIAC & a Biker Chain match? 3.. so he's 3-0.. wow.. Edge's won that many Tag Team T.L.C/ladder matches alone. Yeah, Lesnar has the advantage in gimmick matches

He still never pushed a kid with one leg down the stairs, F-5'd him into the ringpost in front of his mother and beat him up while he was on a stretcher. If you ask for examples outside of Gowen, give examples outside of Matt Hardy. Thanks.

LOL Oh yeah.. cause once again, beating up a defenseless, helpless ONE LEGGED KID.. is so fucking ruthless and bad ass. Man, how will Edge ever defeat someone who started off getting jumped on and punched out by a one legged kid? I shutter to think.

And it's not that I deny what he did to Gowen, its the fact Edge isn't Gowen, (nor is Lesnar Hardy, mind you) but the point I was getting at - that has apparently been too much for you to grasp.. is Edge has defeated people on the same level as he was, or above him.. in sadistic manners.

Lesnar's only sadistic nature has come at the hands of defenseless individuals for the most part. (I'll finally give you Lesnar lovers the double team beatdown of the Hardys as something to be proud of)