WWE Treatment of Black Wrestlers.....Thank You WWE

[Angels]

But... there's this website that does kind of debunks you:

Win/Loss Differential



Why is your argument only starting at say... February?

As I posted (and probably others have well), for the year Big E is 50/12, that's a +38 difference between his wins and losses.

In May he's 2/3, a difference of -1, that's hardly "losing almost all the time."

Your numbers have gotta be way off, especially for Sandow.

My number are not off, the information I posted is directly from this website below. Hence why I stated the only way it could be -54 is if the year is starting from May of last year, as the list below shows all his matches for this full year from january. Again, you can look at the link below for details.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/damien-sandow-376.html

Of course if the year is started from May of last year, most of black wrestlers wouldn't be having a problem because they weren't jobbing, and Big E was actually being well built, however, remember my first post was illustrated Big E was the last hope that I had, and the reason being is that he didn't completely suffer the same fate at the rest, however he did have a large amount of problems.

Remember, in my post with Big E I specifically stated he mostly loss on raw/smackdown. On Superstar and Main Event, he won most of his matches so that what helpded the balance, however Superstar and Main Event are 3 tier wrestling events and matter very little in terms of creative building. That's why I stated it's an insult that the IC championship tournament was held on raw and smackdown, the 1st contender was mostly wrestling on raw and smackdown, but the IC champion only wrestled on main event and superstars. Even worse, the few times that he did wrestle on raw/smackdown, he mostly loss. And that was my problem, Big E wasn't like the other black wrestlers, he was originally sent to jobber mode, but he was being buried creatively. Now that he lost the belt, he looks to be following the same shoes as everyone else his skin color.

So now I expect him to be a straight jobber like everyone else, and it is the reason why I've stopped watching wrestling.

 

[therockiswwf]

You didn't debunk, seeing as you are constantly making up numbers from the website instead of actually posting information, but hey, I might as well show how wrong you are.

O'neil, another black dude.

Alexander Rusev def. (sub) Kofi Kingston
WWE Monday Night Raw

May 5th 2014 Rusev def. (sub) Kofi Kingston
WWE Monday Night Raw

May 5th 2014 Sheamus def. Cody Rhodes, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Dean Ambrose (c), Dolph Ziggler, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Ryback, Santino Marella, Sin Cara, The Big Show, Titus O'Neil, Xavier Woods, Zack Ryder battle royale WWE United States Championship

WWE Main Event

Apr 29th 2014 Bad News Barrett def. (pin) Kofi Kingston
WWE Superstars Taping

Apr 21st 2014 Kofi Kingston def. (pin) Titus O'Neil
WWE Smackdown! Taping

Apr 8th 2014 Bad News Barrett def. (pin) Kofi Kingston
WWE Superstars Taping

Apr 7th 2014 Titus O'Neil def. (pin) Kofi Kingston
WWE WrestleMania XXX

Apr 6th 2014 Cesaro def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Brad Maddox, Brodus Clay, Cody Rhodes, Damien Sandow, Darren Young, David Otunga, Dolph Ziggler, Drew McIntyre, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jinder Mahal, Justin Gabriel, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Rey Mysterio, Santino Marella, Sheamus, Sin Cara, The Big Show, The Great Khali, The Miz, Titus O'Neil, Tyson Kidd,
Xavier Woods, Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder battle royale
WWE Superstars Taping

Mar 31st 2014 Heath Slater def. (pin) Kofi Kingston
WWE Smackdown! Taping

Mar 18th 2014 The Big Show def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Cody Rhodes, Goldust, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, Sheamus, The Miz, Titus O'Neil Unsanctioned Battle Royal
WWE Monday Night Raw

Mar 17th 2014 Bray Wyatt def. (pin) Kofi Kingston
WWE Smackdown! Taping

Mar 11th 2014 Bray Wyatt def. (pin) Kofi Kingston

Kofi's only victory from the beginning of March was against Titus O'neil, Another black dude.


Titus O'Neil only win was against kofi kingston, another black dude, and Zack Ryder at the beginning of the March.

WWE Monday Night Raw
May 5th 2014 Sheamus def. Cody Rhodes, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Dean Ambrose (c), Dolph Ziggler, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Ryback, Santino Marella, Sin Cara, The Big Show, Titus O'Neil, Xavier Woods, Zack Ryder battle royale WWE United States Championship

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Apr 29th 2014 Big E def. (DQ) Titus O'Neil

WWE Monday Night Raw
Apr 28th 2014 Sheamus def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Apr 22nd 2014 Dean Ambrose & Roman Reigns & Seth Rollins def. (pin) Alberto Del Rio & Bad News Barrett & Damien Sandow & Ryback & Titus O'Neil handicap tag

WWE Main Event
Apr 22nd 2014 Sheamus def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Superstars Taping
Apr 21st 2014 Kofi Kingston def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Monday Night Raw
Apr 14th 2014 Dean Ambrose & Roman Reigns & Seth Rollins draw (NC) Alberto Del Rio & Alexander Rusev & Bad News Barrett & Curtis Axel & Drew McIntyre & Fandango & Heath Slater & Jack Swagger & Jinder Mahal & Ryback & Titus O'Neil handicap tag

WWE Superstars Taping
Apr 14th 2014 Big E def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Superstars Taping
Apr 7th 2014 Titus O'Neil def. (pin) Kofi Kingston

WWE WrestleMania XXX
Apr 6th 2014 Cesaro def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Brad Maddox, Brodus Clay, Cody Rhodes, Damien Sandow, Darren Young, David Otunga, Dolph Ziggler, Drew McIntyre, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jinder Mahal, Justin Gabriel, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Rey Mysterio, Santino Marella, Sheamus, Sin Cara, The Big Show, The Great Khali, The Miz, Titus O'Neil, Tyson Kidd, Xavier Woods, Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder battle royale

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 31st 2014 Dolph Ziggler def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 24th 2014 The Big Show def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 18th 2014 The Big Show def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Cody Rhodes, Goldust, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, Sheamus, The Miz, Titus O'Neil Unsanctioned Battle Royal

WWE Main Event
Mar 18th 2014 The Big Show def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 17th 2014 Sheamus def. (pin) Titus O'Neil

WWE Superstars Taping
Mar 3rd 2014 Titus O'Neil def. (pin) Zack Ryder


Mark Henry has one full team win (which I don't normally count as multiple people are involved) and one win against the Miz, out of all his matches.

card/ date match match type title(s)

WWE Smackdown! Taping
May 6th 2014 Roman Reigns def. (pin) Mark Henry

WWE Monday Night Raw
May 5th 2014 Sheamus def. Cody Rhodes, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Dean Ambrose (c), Dolph Ziggler, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Ryback, Santino Marella, Sin Cara, The Big Show, Titus O'Neil, Xavier Woods, Zack Ryder battle royale WWE United States Championship


Xavier Woods has one victory by himself, every other match solo wrestling has been a slot.

card/ date match match type title(s)

WWE Smackdown! Taping
May 6th 2014 Xavier Woods def. Damien Sandow dark

WWE Monday Night Raw
May 5th 2014 Sheamus def. Cody Rhodes, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Dean Ambrose (c), Dolph Ziggler, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Ryback, Santino Marella, Sin Cara, The Big Show, Titus O'Neil, Xavier Woods, Zack Ryder battle royale WWE United States Championship

WWE Extreme Rules '14
May 4th 2014 Alexander Rusev def. (sub) R-Truth & Xavier Woods handicap tag

WWE Monday Night Raw
Apr 28th 2014 Alexander Rusev def. (DQ) Xavier Woods

NXT TV Taping #97
Apr 24th 2014 Sami Zayn, Tyler Breeze, Tyson Kidd def. Aiden English, Baron Corbin, Bo Dallas, Brodus Clay, Camacho, Colin Cassady, Curt Hawkins, Danny Burch, El Local, Jason Jordan, Kalisto, Marcus Louis, Mason Ryan, Mojo Rawley, Oliver Grey, Sylvester Lefort, Xavier Woods, Yoshi Tatsu Battle Royal

WWE Monday Night Raw
Apr 14th 2014 Alexander Rusev def. (sub) Xavier Woods

WWE WrestleMania XXX
Apr 6th 2014 Cesaro def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Brad Maddox, Brodus Clay, Cody Rhodes, Damien Sandow, Darren Young, David Otunga, Dolph Ziggler, Drew McIntyre, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jinder Mahal, Justin Gabriel, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Rey Mysterio, Santino Marella, Sheamus, Sin Cara, The Big Show, The Great Khali, The Miz, Titus O'Neil, Tyson Kidd, Xavier Woods, Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder battle royale

WWE Superstars Taping
Mar 24th 2014 R-Truth & Xavier Woods def. (pin) Drew McIntyre & Jinder Mahal

WWE Superstars Taping
Mar 17th 2014 R-Truth & Xavier Woods def. (pin) Drew McIntyre & Jinder Mahal

NXT TV Taping #92
Mar 13th 2014 Brodus Clay def. (pin) Xavier Woods


WWE Monday Night Raw
Apr 14th 2014 Cesaro def. (pin) Mark Henry

WWE WrestleMania XXX
Apr 6th 2014 Cesaro def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Brad Maddox, Brodus Clay, Cody Rhodes, Damien Sandow, Darren Young, David Otunga, Dolph Ziggler, Drew McIntyre, Fandango, Goldust, Heath Slater, Jinder Mahal, Justin Gabriel, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, R-Truth, Rey Mysterio, Santino Marella, Sheamus, Sin Cara, The Big Show, The Great Khali, The Miz, Titus O'Neil, Tyson Kidd, Xavier Woods, Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder battle royale

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 25th 2014 Mark Henry def. (pin) The Miz

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 18th 2014 The Big Show def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Cody Rhodes, Goldust, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, Sheamus, The Miz, Titus O'Neil Unsanctioned Battle Royal

WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 17th 2014 Big E & Dolph Ziggler & Mark Henry & The Big Show def. (pin) Alberto Del Rio & Curtis Axel & Damien Sandow & Ryback 8-person tag

WWE Main Event
Mar 11th 2014 Dean Ambrose (c) def. (pin) Mark Henry

I can go on and on and on, but the point is stop trying to make up stuff. These folks are clearly jobbing, whether you wish to accept it or not.

Wait you mean you want me to make a gigantic post (like yours) filled with the matches I'm talking about when anyone can go to the website and confirm what I'm talking about? That would make my post way too long and no one would read it.

You said they had been buried (which is much different than jobbing) starting in February (even though Big E had a winning record).

In Februrary Kingston beat Sandow (a white guy who as DarksideEric said, has a worse record than anyone you mentioned).

Kingston, Henry, Truth and Woods are all jobbers. That I agree with and they are where they should be. But both Henry and Truth are over 40 and should be in the putting others over phase.

Kingston has proven he doesn't deserve to risen above where he is currently.

O'neil and Big E will get pushes in the future. O'neil less so because of his age. Once we get out of Wrestlemania rematches period, these two will probably get more screen time.

Woods seem to be trapped in that everyone is a dancer period. Although he isn't that different from his NXT stuff (which wasn't that impressive in the first place). He is only 27 and will definitely get another shot. Plus

Oh and Big E's record since February 3rd:
29 matches. 19 wins. 10 loses. Of his 10 loses, only four were in singles matches. Four of them were in tag team matches. Two of them were battle royals. Hardly jobbing or buried.

Kofi Kingston Only victory, not some like you provided was against Titus

So black wrestlers can't beat other black wrestlers?

 

[DarksideEric]

My number are not off, the information I posted is directly from this website below. Hence why I stated the only way it could be -54 is if the year is starting from May of last year, as the list below shows all his matches for this full year from january. Again, you can look at the link below for details.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/damien-sandow-376.html

Yes, your numbers are way off actually.

The website you're using does not list house shows, at all. Your numbers are indeed very much off. Damien Sandow has been in 55 matches since Jan 1, 2014, including house shows.

Of course if the year is started from May of last year, most of black wrestlers wouldn't be having a problem because they weren't jobbing, and Big E was actually being well built, however, remember my first post was illustrated Big E was the last hope that I had, and the reason being is that he didn't completely suffer the same fate at the rest, however he did have a large amount of problems.

It's not starting from May of last year. It's starting from Jan of this year.

Remember, in my post with Big E I specifically stated he mostly loss on raw/smackdown. On Superstar and Main Event, he won most of his matches so that what helpded the balance, however Superstar and Main Event are 3 tier wrestling events and matter very little in terms of creative building. That's why I stated it's an insult that the IC championship tournament was held on raw and smackdown, the 1st contender was mostly wrestling on raw and smackdown, but the IC champion only wrestled on main event and superstars. Even worse, the few times that he did wrestle on raw/smackdown, he mostly loss. And that was my problem, Big E wasn't like the other black wrestlers, he was originally sent to jobber mode, but he was being buried creatively. Now that he lost the belt, he looks to be following the same shoes as everyone else his skin color.

Except... he's only -1 for May. How is that "losing almost all the time"? In April he's 10/2, with 2 wins and 1 loss on Raw.

So now I expect him to be a straight jobber like everyone else, and it is the reason why I've stopped watching wrestling.

Your numbers are just wrong though.

 

[Angels]

Wait you mean you want me to make a gigantic post (like yours) filled with the matches I'm talking about when anyone can go to the website and confirm what I'm talking about? That would make my post way too long and no one would read it.

You said they had been buried (which is much different than jobbing) starting in February (even though Big E had a winning record).

In Februrary Kingston beat Sandow (a white guy who as DarksideEric said, has a worse record than anyone you mentioned).

Kingston, Henry, Truth and Woods are all jobbers. That I agree with and they are where they should be. But both Henry and Truth are over 40 and should be in the putting others over phase.

Kingston has proven he doesn't deserve to risen above where he is currently.

O'neil and Big E will get pushes in the future. O'neil less so because of his age. Once we get out of Wrestlemania rematches period, these two will probably get more screen time.

Woods seem to be trapped in that everyone is a dancer period. Although he isn't that different from his NXT stuff (which wasn't that impressive in the first place). He is only 27 and will definitely get another shot. Plus

Oh and Big E's record since February 3rd:
29 matches. 19 wins. 10 loses. Of his 10 loses, only four were in singles matches. Four of them were in tag team matches. Two of them were battle royals. Hardly jobbing or buried.



So black wrestlers can't beat other black wrestlers?

I never stated the other black wrestlers were getting buried, because they had no top part to become buried, I've stated that they were jobbing, which you at least agree upon. What we don't agree upon is if they should be jobbing or not, but that's a different story entirely.

I said Big E was getting buried, and I already explained why in my previous post.

Remember, in my post with Big E I specifically stated he mostly loss on raw/smackdown. On Superstar and Main Event, he won most of his matches so that what helpded the balance, however Superstar and Main Event are 3 tier wrestling events and matter very little in terms of creative building. That's why I stated it's an insult that the IC championship tournament was held on raw and smackdown, the 1st contender was mostly wrestling on raw and smackdown, but the IC champion only wrestled on main event and superstars. Even worse, the few times that he did wrestle on raw/smackdown, he mostly loss (and DQ wins to build up Cesaro and Swagger). And that was my problem, Big E wasn't like the other black wrestlers, he was originally sent to jobber mode, but he was being buried creatively. Now that he lost the belt, he looks to be following the same shoes as everyone else his skin color.

So now I expect him to be a straight jobber like everyone else, and it is the reason why I've stopped watching wrestling.

 

[Angels]

Yes, your numbers are way off actually.

The website you're using does not list house shows, at all. Your numbers are indeed very much off. Damien Sandow has been in 55 matches since Jan 1, 2014, including house shows.



It's not starting from May of last year. It's starting from Jan of this year.



Except... he's only -1 for May. How is that "losing almost all the time"? In April he's 10/2, with 2 wins and 1 loss on Raw.



Your numbers are just wrong though.

My numbers aren't incorrect, they just aren't reflecting house shows which your numbers are, that's the only difference between the two. I was wondering where you were getting this negative 1 when Big E has only wrestled on television 3 times this month

card/ date match match type title(s)
WWE Smackdown! Taping
May 6th 2014 Bad News Barrett & Cesaro def. (pin) Big E & Rob Van Dam
WWE Monday Night Raw
May 5th 2014 Bad News Barrett (c) def. (pin) Big E WWE Intercontinental Championship

WWE Extreme Rules '14
May 4th 2014 Bad News Barrett def. (pin) Big E (c) WWE Intercontinental Championship

You view a website where house shows are included, but my website I have doesn't include house shows, doesn't mean they are wrong. With that said, house shows do not matter as they are not televised. They do not build up hype or establish creative booking. Hence why you have all kind of miscellanous matches on house shows you would never see on raw.

 

[therockiswwf]

I'll yet again reiterate that the point being made is not that black men have never been given pushes, it's that black men have not been given the same opportunities with the title as unappealing non-black guys have.

It seems like everytime someone (like myself) tries to get you to either respond to this sentiment or state an opinion regarding why this idea is incorrect, you steer the subject to a different topic about whether or not money can be made off of the black wrestler or whether or not Bobby Lashley might have gotten a title if he stayed. Those arguments are paper thin seeing as how there has been 3 midcard singles wrestlers who got themselves over yet never got an experiment run with the top titles (MVP, R-Truth, Kofi Kingston) while other non-white, widely unappealing, wrestlers got experiment runs with top titles. (Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, ADR) So appeal (which = crowd response and $$$) is not the main factor when it comes to this decision.

That is because you are wrong.

I have mentioned before why Ziggler and ADR got shots. Swagger getting a shot was not because he was white. He had an impressive background, hadn't gotten a big time shot yet, young and had a great look. That is why they gave him a shot, not because of his skin color.

Don't you remember what happened to R-Truth? He got suspended for violating the drug policy and that is when all his momentum died. No one to blame but himself.

MVP was around 36 or so when he got hot. His lose to Orton killed his momentum. The rumor was Vince didn't like MVP as a face. But you do have to admit MVP was pushed very hard when he debuted and you could tell WWE thought he was going to be something. MVP and Kennedy got to do a massive feud with Kane and Undertaker for a good while. Not everyone can get that. Plus his age I still feel was what ultimately prevented him from becoming a world champ.

Kofi Kingston has only shown one tiny glimpse of being a top guy. Ever since then, he has never done anything to show he should reach that level again.

Using Mark Henry is also disregarding the former statement because it took him at least 14 years with the company just to get the LOWER midcard title. Also it should be noted, his reign got more of a consistent crowd response than at least the 2 of the 3 non-black guys I mentioned who had top-title reigns. So once again, talent and appeal isn't the determining factor when dishing out the top titles. It's simply a conscious decision that is made based on a "gut feeling" or experimentation.

Wow. Henry got a gimmick (that as I have stated before, Brodus Clay pitched and creative gave it to Henry) and fully embraced it. You see before, he wasn't entertaining. Henry was boring for a very long time and never did anything to show he was anything more than a generic monster. Sometimes it takes people awhile to figure it out. Henry wasn't given the World Title as a thank you, he legitimately deserved it so they had him beat the number two guy in the company for it.

Also his original contract was rumored to be a ten year, multi-million dollar contract. Yeah the WWE really hated the guy.

To look at all of the black wrestlers who have come and gone and not see the realistic possibility of a racial bias simply means you don't want to see it. When other less appealing un-entertaining reigns have taken place by non-white wrestlers (in the span of 5 years), it's not much of a stretch to assume that it's not a coincidence.

Or you just try to blame race instead of realizing that some wrestlers don't have talent.

 

[d_henderson1810]

As a black male watch wrestling, I have been apalled by the treatment that black wrestlers had, as every single one has been placed in jobber mode, Mark Henry has been tossed to the wolves getting absolutely destroyed by the shield and later Brock Lesnar. R-truth and Xavier woods has been the laughing stock, also jobbing to everyone in sight, and even worse, Kofi Kingston, who loss to 3mb for christ sake. But even with all the signs pointing towards that direction, there was one shining light in Big E. But even I could see Big E was going through some of the worst booking recent history. He hasn't had a victory or raw/smackdown since february. Let me repeat that, FEBRUARY. He was completely off the microphone for almost the entire time. For christ sake, the intercontinental tournament was on Raw and Smackdown yet Big E was neglected to Main Event and Superstars. But still, I held hope that perhaps they might do a turn around, and actually treat big e with importance. Instead, he loses.

So I have to say thank you WWE, I think Big E was the last straw that finally allowed for me to distance myself from the show. I've been a major follower for years, but it seems like somehow Donald Sterling ended up being hired at the WWE as Black Wrestlers are clearly treated as second class wrestlers, and it's horrid. So when things may change, and they actually decide to treat someone with my skin color as actually important, I might start watching again, but the WWE has finally gotten me to stop watching their programs.

There is this guy called The Rock, who was not only a former WWE and World Champion, and he is half-black, being that his father was Rocky Johnson, who was a successful black man who held the WWF World Tag-Team Titles with Tony Atlas, another black man.

I would say that the Rock was successful, over, and given every opportunity, and became one of the top three guys in WWE history (aside from Hogan and SCSA, which is why those three were in the opening segment of WMXXX). He did this, despite your perceived "prejudice".

But thank you for pointing out your ignorance. But you will probably, in turn, call me a racist for pointing that, you, as a black man, are not always right. Pipebomb!

PS. BTW, maybe people wouldn't notice that blacks were a different color if you stopped pointing it out all the time.

 

[DarksideEric]

My numbers aren't incorrect, they just aren't reflecting house shows which your numbers are, that's the only difference between the two. I was wondering where you were getting this negative 1 when Big E has only wrestled on television 3 times this month

Yes, that is what makes your numbers incorrect. You're not using the entire list of data... that would mean your numbers are skewed and thus not correct.

You view a website where house shows are included, but my website I have doesn't include house shows, doesn't mean they are wrong. With that said, house shows do not matter as they are not televised. They do not build up hype or establish creative booking. Hence why you have all kind of miscellanous matches on house shows you would never see on raw.

House show matches you'd never see on Raw?

WWE RAW #1084
2014/03/03 @ Allstate Arena in Rosemont, Illinois (United States of America)
Big E defeated Jack Swagger by disqualification (0:06 minutes)

WWE @ Salt Lake City
2014/03/08 @ Maverik Center in West Valley City, Utah (United States of America)
Big E (c) defeated Jack Swagger [WWE Intercontinental Title]

WWE RAW #1085
2014/03/10 @ FedEx Forum in Memphis, Tennessee (United States of America)
Big E defeated Jack Swagger (3:03 minutes)

So... you don't see Big E vs. Jack Swagger on Raw because you see it at house shows since it's a Misc. match?

 

[Angels]

I'll yet again reiterate that the point being made is not that black men have never been given pushes, it's that black men have not been given the same opportunities with the title as unappealing non-black guys have.

It seems like everytime someone (like myself) tries to get you to either respond to this sentiment or state an opinion regarding why this idea is incorrect, you steer the subject to a different topic about whether or not money can be made off of the black wrestler or whether or not Bobby Lashley might have gotten a title if he stayed. Those arguments are paper thin seeing as how there has been 3 midcard singles wrestlers who got themselves over yet never got an experiment run with the top titles (MVP, R-Truth, Kofi Kingston) while other non-white, widely unappealing, wrestlers got experiment runs with top titles. (Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, ADR) So appeal (which = crowd response and $$$) is not the main factor when it comes to this decision.

Using Mark Henry is also disregarding the former statement because it took him at least 14 years with the company just to get the LOWER midcard title. Also it should be noted, his reign got more of a consistent crowd response than at least the 2 of the 3 non-black guys I mentioned who had top-title reigns. So once again, talent and appeal isn't the determining factor when dishing out the top titles. It's simply a conscious decision that is made based on a "gut feeling" or experimentation.

To look at all of the black wrestlers who have come and gone and not see the realistic possibility of a racial bias simply means you don't want to see it. When other less appealing un-entertaining reigns have taken place by non-white wrestlers (in the span of 5 years), it's not much of a stretch to assume that it's not a coincidence.

My Friend, it's no point. I read across an article in which blacks and whites were asked to poll how much racism plays a roll in society. Over 48% of blacks say racism played a large role in society, while only 18% of whites said the same thing. I didn't really understand why there was such a huge viewpoint difference until now. It's a cultural difference really, different cultures have different experiences and as such especially in a place like America, have a hard time relating to someone of a different cultural experience or understanding what other cultures go through. Now through this thread, a lot of it makes sense and was a huge eye opening experience. While I'm disappointed, I can successfully state I learned (and confirmed) a lot on how much cultural contrast can clash and create different outlooks on things. One thing's for sure, I'm going to have a lot more hesitation regarding bringing a race related topic regarding blacks to non-black demographic.

 

[Angels]

Yes, that is what makes your numbers incorrect. You're not using the entire list of data... that would mean your numbers are skewed and thus not correct.

Disagree, all factors are not required in order to make an accurate judgement,
only important factors are needed, the website doesn't include house shows because house shows aren't important, so it makes sense to exclude them from the database. Compiling data from actual televised shows indicates a lot more regarding creative booking than house shows do.

House show matches you'd never see on Raw?

WWE RAW #1084
2014/03/03 @ Allstate Arena in Rosemont, Illinois (United States of America)
Big E defeated Jack Swagger by disqualification (0:06 minutes)

WWE @ Salt Lake City
2014/03/08 @ Maverik Center in West Valley City, Utah (United States of America)
Big E (c) defeated Jack Swagger [WWE Intercontinental Title]

WWE RAW #1085
2014/03/10 @ FedEx Forum in Memphis, Tennessee (United States of America)
Big E defeated Jack Swagger (3:03 minutes)

So... you don't see Big E vs. Jack Swagger on Raw because you see it at house shows since it's a Misc. match?

I never stated you don't see the match on raw, I stated the show isn't televised, it's not a top tier show like raw or smackdown, it's not even 3rd tier like main event, it's a show that's not even televised. As such, many wrestlers practice their wrestling bout on house shows before performing them on actual raw/smackdown. I've seen this personally, that's why I said House shows aren't important because House shows aren't televised. They are even less important than superstars.

 

[therockiswwf]

I never stated the other black wrestlers were getting buried, because they had no top part to become buried, I've stated that they were jobbing, which you at least agree upon. What we don't agree upon is if they should be jobbing or not, but that's a different story entirely.

I said Big E was getting buried, and I already explained why in my previous post.

So else than Big E (who is not jobbing or being buried, the customary thing after winning a midcard title is to lose to the new champion a few times which gasp, Big E beat Axel in a rematch for the title) who shouldn't be jobbing?

O'Neil's age might hinder him (although there is a rumor that Vince loves his recent promo work). His in-ring work is also below par and at his age he probably won't get much better. But I'm sure WWE will see what he can do after the fallout from Mania is complete and they have more time they can devote to lesser stories.

Big E will be fine. Barrett went through this last year and he turned out fine. Not everyone can be pushed at once. Again, Big E's story is not unique, this happens to midcarders all the damn time. Creative will push some guy then get bored and move onto the next guy. Then eventually cycle back to them again. What Big E has to do is take advantage of that window of time he gets and standout. That is what Cesaro did.

 

[DarksideEric]

Disagree, all factors are not required in order to make an accurate judgement,
only important factors are needed, the website doesn't include house shows because house shows aren't important, so it makes sense to exclude them from the database. Compiling data from actual televised shows indicates a lot more regarding creative booking than house shows do.

All factors are required if you don't want skewed results.

You're getting skewed results.

I never stated you don't see the match on raw,

Uh... yes you very much did:

Hence why you have all kind of miscellanous matches on house shows you would never see on raw.

That specifically says "matches on house shows you would never see on Raw."

I stated the show isn't televised, it's not a top tier show like raw or smackdown, it's not even 3rd tier like main event, it's a show that's not even televised. As such, many wrestlers practice their wrestling bout on house shows before performing them on actual raw/smackdown. I've seen this personally, that's why I said House shows aren't important because House shows aren't televised. They are even less important than superstars.

...and now you're contradicting your statement within a contradiction.

"I never stated you don't see the match on raw."

"matches on house shows you would never see on raw."

"many wrestlers practice their wrestling bout on house shows before performing them on actual raw/smackdown."

So... which is it?

Do you never see the same kind of match at a house show that you see at Raw?

Or do you see the same kind of match at a house show that you would see at Raw because they're practicing for their Raw match at a house show?

It doesn't matter that they're not televised because house shows are still a means to test talent and creative booking. It's not like you see like, while Big E is in a feud with Wade Barret, him face Daniel Bryan out of no where at one house show, then the Great Khali at another house show, then Barret at Raw.

Prior to losing the title at Extreme Rules, Big E faced Barret twice at house shows (and won) then faced him at the PPV and Raw. How in the world are the house shows not considered part of the booking for them just because it's not televised?

 

[bxbigshow]

I wish someone who has an opposing view to the OP can state the fact that there is a disparity when it comes to black first time champions as oppose to non-black first time champions. (once again WWE or WHC titles)

And that's it, no justification on your part.
No "there wasn't anyone main event worthy" on your part.
No "do you want to see Darren Young with the title?" on your part.

Just admit, that things COULD be improved. Not SHOULD, but COULD.
And then we can all just get along.
But to say that no one of color in the past 12 years (since 2002 my year of reference) outside of Mark Henry's "thank you" run was deserving of the top 2 belts is ridiculous.
Because at the same time you ignore (or justify) why a few non-blacks, who were equally undeserving, are.

P.S.- I have never seen such a strong support for the talents and virtue of a one Jack Swagger in my life...until these topics come up. He was a Kurt Angle clone, with a Sylvester the Cat speech impediment and he is defended like he's Lou Frickin Thesz.

For those who oppose the OP's view, when Swagger won the WHC on that Smackdown, how many of you THEN said "he deserved it."? Please respond with the truth...

 

[f_roEDGE]

The ratio of black wrestlers to white wrestlers is very large. For every black wrestler there's ten white wrestlers.

But what about the ratio for WWE's biggest title, the WWE Championship? 44 Champions, but only 1 Black. And that 1 black wrestler is the Rock, who constantly promotes his Samoan roots, but never his African-American roots since he left the Nation.

We can argue that Booker T and Mark Henry won the second tier World Heavyweight Championship, but that title will forever be second tier. Now that the titles are unified, a black wrestler will never become champion.

And why are black wrestlers always put into sterotypical gimmicks? Xavier Woods is shucks and jives. Cryme Tyme were ghetto thugs. R-Truth is a rapper. Kofi Kingston was Jamaican. Nation of Domination were "proud". Darren Young has an afro pick. Titus O'Neil has a sports whistle. Heck, Prime Time PLAYAS. And they both dance and talk about money. I'm surprised Big E wasn't stereotyped.

Oh, and for those who say that Kofi Kingston is bad on the mic, HE IS NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO SPEAK!! Daniel Bryan is on the same level, but he's being elevated. And why?

I've always said this and will say it again. Bobby Lashley was the perfect black wrestler to push AND KEEP in the main event. He grew into a charismatic, strong wrestler. He is WAAAY better than guys like Sheamus and Boretista, who have won the title. But what happened? Racism from Hayes, and no defense from WWE.

This video pretty much summarizes the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf91CwjmQno

 

[TheJF]

I'll yet again reiterate that the point being made is not that black men have never been given pushes, it's that black men have not been given the same opportunities with the title as unappealing non-black guys have.

1a - The number of white to black wrestlers is far apart and therefore a higher number of "unappealing" (see 1b) white wrestlers will get chances, however there are far more white wrestlers being "buried" and "jobbing" then black wrestlers. This is because of the number of wrestlers and the fact that not everybody can be on top.

1b - "unappealing" in who's opinion? A large portion of the audience (universe) enjoy similar wrestler, just because you find them "unappealing" this doesn't make it a a fact

 

[DarksideEric]

I wish someone who has an opposing view to the OP can state the fact that there is a disparity when it comes to black first time champions as oppose to non-black first time champions. (once again WWE or WHC titles)

And that's it, no justification on your part.
No "there wasn't anyone main event worthy" on your part.
No "do you want to see Darren Young with the title?" on your part.

Just admit, that things COULD be improved. Not SHOULD, but COULD.
And then we can all just get along.
But to say that no one of color in the past 12 years (since 2002 my year of reference) outside of Mark Henry's "thank you" run was deserving of the top 2 belts is ridiculous.
Because at the same time you ignore (or justify) why a few non-blacks, who were equally undeserving, are.

P.S.- I have never seen such a strong support for the talents and virtue of a one Jack Swagger in my life...until these topics come up. He was a Kurt Angle clone, with a Sylvester the Cat speech impediment and he is defended like he's Lou Frickin Thesz.

For those who oppose the OP's view, when Swagger won the WHC on that Smackdown, how many of you THEN said "he deserved it."? Please respond with the truth...

Of course there's a disparity, it's currently (and pretty much throughout it's history) a white dominated industry.

Could it be improved? Yeah, sure it could.

But trying to squash arguments by saying:

No "there wasn't anyone main event worthy" on your part.
No "do you want to see Darren Young with the title?" on your part.

About a subjective industry (subjective as in, who's good, who's not, who the crowd likes, etc) is a fairly stone wall thing to do.

Could it be improved? Yeah, sure it could.

But do not only WWE Creative and the customers like someone like Big E as much as they liked Ziggler? Do they think he was/is as good as Ziggler? It doesn't seem like it. I'm not not sure that has anything to do with race though.

 

[therockiswwf]

I wish someone who has an opposing view to the OP can state the fact that there is a disparity when it comes to black first time champions as oppose to non-black first time champions. (once again WWE or WHC titles)

And that's it, no justification on your part.
No "there wasn't anyone main event worthy" on your part.
No "do you want to see Darren Young with the title?" on your part.

Just admit, that things COULD be improved. Not SHOULD, but COULD.
And then we can all just get along.
But to say that no one of color in the past 12 years (since 2002 my year of reference) outside of Mark Henry's "thank you" run was deserving of the top 2 belts is ridiculous.
Because at the same time you ignore (or justify) why a few non-blacks, who were equally undeserving, are.

P.S.- I have never seen such a strong support for the talents and virtue of a one Jack Swagger in my life...until these topics come up. He was a Kurt Angle clone, with a Sylvester the Cat speech impediment and he is defended like he's Lou Frickin Thesz.

For those who oppose the OP's view, when Swagger won the WHC on that Smackdown, how many of you THEN said "he deserved it."? Please respond with the truth...

No one said Swagger deserved it. But show me how WWE only gave Swagger the title because he was white. That is the problem with the argument. Swagger was not given the title because of his skin color.

Maybe right now the best wrestlers in the world happen to be white. Maybe in ten years the best wrestlers will be black. Maybe they will be Asian, Indian, Australian. Instead of color, you should only see a human.

Say the twelve best people for a certain job just happen to be white. Would you fire any of those twelve people in order to hire a black person just to fill a certain quota? The answer would hopefully be no. If the twelve best people just happened to be black, would you fire any of them in order to hire a white person? WWE should and does hire the people they think will be the best. Don't look at race, view everyone as a human. That is my philosophy. I bet you the WWE is the same exact way. They will hire whoever gives them the best chance to make money.

Please tell me the black wrestlers who have truly deserved a title run. Don't use a white wrestler getting an undeserved run as proof of racism. That is baseless conjecture.

 

[Angels]

All factors are required if you don't want skewed results.

You're getting skewed results.



Uh... yes you very much did:



That specifically says "matches on house shows you would never see on Raw."



...and now you're contradicting your statement within a contradiction.

"I never stated you don't see the match on raw."

"matches on house shows you would never see on raw."

"many wrestlers practice their wrestling bout on house shows before performing them on actual raw/smackdown."

So... which is it?

Do you never see the same kind of match at a house show that you see at Raw?

Or do you see the same kind of match at a house show that you would see at Raw because they're practicing for their Raw match at a house show?

It doesn't matter that they're not televised because house shows are still a means to test talent and creative booking. It's not like you see like, while Big E is in a feud with Wade Barret, him face Daniel Bryan out of no where at one house show, then the Great Khali at another house show, then Barret at Raw.

Prior to losing the title at Extreme Rules, Big E faced Barret twice at house shows (and won) then faced him at the PPV and Raw. How in the world are the house shows not considered part of the booking for them just because it's not televised?

That was an erronous statement on my part, I specifically meant that the show isn't televised and as such you don't see it on raw or smackdown because the show itself isn't televised. But of course, Raw and Smackdown themselves are televised so they I've saw a house show bout reacted almost move for move on smackdown. That's my fault for using incorrect terminology.

Secondly many times wwe does appear to preform random booking that doesn't have any correlation to their televised counterparts. But at the same time, instants like mention above happen so that the wrestlers can develop in ring chemistry before performing on the main stage, IE Raw and Pay Per Views. But they matter little in terms of creative addressing because regular fans cannot watch the match. In fact, I'd wager Superstar and Main Event matter very little, as the main two shows most wrestling fans watch are Raw and Smackdown. That's where creative development takes place most of the time, not saying it's completely impossible to develop character in main event, but it's going to be much more difficult due to the lower amount of viewers, with House Television shows, it's next to impossible.

 

[Dr.Shades]

Seriously?! Can we just let this drop? Op will not yield on any facts. Opposition will not yield on any facts. Can we agree (aside from OPs misinformation on big e's supposed losing streak) and accept that no black/asian/Indian/Australian/Martian/sentient robot performers are currently enjoying a main event push and that for whatever reason it's may not be your cup of tea. Let's just stop this near pointless discussion. All points of concession are well past any chance of resolution. So shall we all move on to the next, more pleasant discussion? Please?

 

[Barnett114]

Completely agree with the title of this thread. Thank you WWE for your treatment of black wrestlers. They are exactly where they should be. Not near any white mans Championship.

My post gets deleted and this racist garbage is still up.

What is this bullshit?

But anyway, OP I still think you're off.

There just haven't been that many black wrestlers worth pushing.

When another black prospect comes along, they'll get a chance.

 

[DarksideEric]

That was an erronous statement on my part, I specifically meant that the show isn't televised and as such you don't see it on raw or smackdown because the show itself isn't televised. But of course, Raw and Smackdown themselves are televised so they I've saw a house show bout reacted almost move for move on smackdown. That's my fault for using incorrect terminology.

Secondly many times wwe does appear to preform random booking that doesn't have any correlation to their televised counterparts. But at the same time, instants like mention above happen so that the wrestlers can develop in ring chemistry before performing on the main stage, IE Raw and Pay Per Views. But they matter little in terms of creative addressing because regular fans cannot watch the match. In fact, I'd wager Superstar and Main Event matter very little, as the main two shows most wrestling fans watch are Raw and Smackdown. That's where creative development takes place most of the time, not saying it's completely impossible to develop character in main event, but it's going to be much more difficult due to the lower amount of viewers, with House Television shows, it's next to impossible.

Then if house shows, Superstars or Main Event don't count, since they aren't "important" and only Raw, Smackdown and PPVs count...

Big E is 6:2 in Feb with 3 wins on Raw (one of which was a 2v1 handicap against him).

4:1 in March.

2:2 in April.

0:2 in May.

For a total of, since you're claiming Feb as the starting point...

6:5.

How is he losing "almost every match"?

 

[Angels]

Seriously?! Can we just let this drop? Op will not yield on any facts. Opposition will not yield on any facts. Can we agree (aside from OPs misinformation on big e's supposed losing streak) and accept that no black/asian/Indian/Australian/Martian/sentient robot performers are currently enjoying a main event push and that for whatever reason it's may not be your cup of tea. Let's just stop this near pointless discussion. All points of concession are well past any chance of resolution. So shall we all move on to the next, more pleasant discussion? Please?

Oh I have provided facts already, whether it's accepted or not is up to the each person here, but I have posted information from the website confirming Big E's primarily losing when it comes to raw/smackdown events as well as all other black wrestlers jobbing in general. Now whether people agree or not primarily seems to depend upon cultural background, hence why I said the main thing I took from this thread is cultural contrast and how it shapes people's mindset differently, but facts has definitely been provided.

 

[Dr.Shades]

But even I could see Big E was going through some of the worst booking recent history. He hasn't had a victory or raw/smackdown since february. Let me repeat that, FEBRUARY.

This statement is what I refer to in my claim of incorrect figures, he has had wins on raw/smack down prior to him losing the title. And as far claiming cultural background is shaping the responses that's not exactly a fair assessment. I'm from japan before I moved to Toronto and we are not exactly known for racial acceptance and I have no issue with black people. I think that is something as subjective as claiming people of being racist or racially ignorant is kinda a mixed bag of success without hard evidence.

 

[Angels]

Then if house shows, Superstars or Main Event don't count, since they aren't "important" and only Raw, Smackdown and PPVs count...

Big E is 6:2 in Feb with 3 wins on Raw (one of which was a 2v1 handicap against him).

4:1 in March.

2:2 in April.

0:2 in May.

For a total of, since you're claiming Feb as the starting point...

6:5.

How is he losing "almost every match"?

The breakdown tells a lot more than that.

WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 31st 2014 Alberto Del Rio def. (pin) Big E
WWE Main Event
Mar 25th 2014 Big E (c) def. (pin) Dolph Ziggler WWE Intercontinental Championship

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 18th 2014 Alberto Del Rio def. (pin) Big E
WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 18th 2014 The Big Show def. Alberto Del Rio, Big E, Cody Rhodes, Goldust, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, Sheamus, The Miz, Titus O'Neil Unsanctioned Battle Royal
WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 17th 2014 Big E & Dolph Ziggler & Mark Henry & The Big Show def. (pin) Alberto Del Rio & Curtis Axel & Damien Sandow & Ryback 8-person tag
WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 11th 2014 Big E def. (pin) Fandango
WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 10th 2014 Big E def. (pin) Jack Swagger
WWE Smackdown! Taping
Mar 4th 2014 Big E def. (pin) Jack Swagger dark

WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 3rd 2014 Big E def. (DQ) Jack Swagger
WWE Monday Night Raw
Mar 3rd 2014 Big E def. (DQ) Cesaro

This is March, as you can see with March, one match is a dark match which means not shown on television which he won, one was a tag team match where Big Show picked up the victory, and 2 were disqualifications dedicated to building up Cesaro and Swagger eventual department over building Big E.
By looking at Pins, you'll see Big E has technically only won 2 matches, while losing the other 2. Essentially 2 clean wins that were televisied on television.

WWE Smackdown! Taping
Apr 29th 2014 Big E def. (DQ) Titus O'Neil
NXT TV Taping #99
Apr 24th 2014 Big E def. Bo Dallas
WWE Main Event
Apr 22nd 2014 Big E def. (pin) Alberto Del Rio
WWE Superstars Taping
Apr 21st 2014 Big E def. (pin) Damien Sandow
WWE Smackdown! Taping
Apr 15th 2014 Big E def. (DQ) Alberto Del Rio
WWE Superstars Taping
Apr 14th 2014 Big E def. (pin) Titus O'Neil
WWE Monday Night Raw
Apr 7th 2014 Bray Wyatt & Erick Rowan & Luke Harper def. (pin) Big E & John Cena & Sheamus

As you can see, in April, he has had only one victory on smackdown via pin, and that's against titus o'neil, another black person whose a jobber.

WWE Smackdown! Taping
May 6th 2014 Bad News Barrett & Cesaro def. (pin) Big E & Rob Van Dam
WWE Monday Night Raw
May 5th 2014 Bad News Barrett (c) def. (pin) Big E WWE Intercontinental Championship

WWE Extreme Rules '14
May 4th 2014 Bad News Barrett def. (pin) Big E (c)

As you can see here, in may, Big E has lost most times.

Now remember, my biggest criticism towards Big E wasn't his losing rate, but the fact that he was barely on smackdown/raw, his role was primarily on superstar and main event, even though the IC tournment and IC contender had more roles on Raw/Smackdown. That's why I said Big E was more a burial process, he wasn't jobbing like all other black wrestlers, but the creative writing behind Big E was grade A horrible.

 

[Kidpolean]

IM SORRY BUT I HAVE TO SAY IT.....

If you dont like it, than dont watch it. Ive never seen so many people bash something that they voluntarily watch. I think that the show Hardcore Pawn is racist so I dont watch the shit AT ALL, i will literally leave the room if someone puts it own because it makes me sick. But why are the people that think the wwe is racist supporting the wwe? And dont say some bs answer like because ive been a fan for so long that I cant stop watching. This makes no sense. I am black and if I ever felt that something was racist I wouldnt have anything to do with it.

Pro wrestling is for entertainment. We are suppose to enjoy watching it. If a show is stressing you out than stop watching..its that simple

Some of you on here are freakin morons. You are dedicating precious moments of your life both watching and discussing something that you have major problems with/ do not enjoy. WTF is wrong with you people?