WWE Treatment of Black Wrestlers.....Thank You WWE

[FreezeIzGAWD]

Thank You Darkseid Eric. I truly couldn't remember and I am sorry what I was trying to demonstrate was that black stars did not receive single title runs. I honestly was around during the JYD era and I was always disappointed that not a single black ever held a title. I truly love wrestling but I cannot believe that people are just dismissing race playing a factor in single athletes not getting a push. The reason I asked about the IC belt is I couldn't remember because there were so many changes in the 90s it was crazy but before then reigns meant something. I still say that it is hard for me to believe that EVERY BLACK star lacks the IT factor to hold the Title at least ONCE since the E was established

 

[pyrusane]

Oh and unless I am mistaken up until the Rock got a run. I don't recall a minority even getting a Mid card run.

I was talking SPECIFICALLY of people of AFRICAN AMERICAN descent. That is what my whole argument was.

Perhaps you need to be clearer then. Don't act offended because people responded to the word you used instead of the word you meant to use. And I am sure the Hispanic/Latino community is glad to know that you don't consider them to be a minority group. Very open-minded thinking there.

As far as your argument itself, the first black champions in the WWE were Tony Atlas and Rocky Johnson, who won the tag team titles in 1983. And your suggestion that the Rock won the WWE title as a response to Ron Simmons winning the WCW title is just stupid, seeing as how Simmons got his run in 1992 and the Rock didn't even join the WWE until four years later in 1996. His first WWE Title was in 1998. If they did that to piggyback off of Ron Simmons, it took them a loooong time.

Here's the thing...no one is denying that the complete lack of a black WWE champion other than the Rock is disgraceful. That is a given. And no one is trying to deny your right to be frustrated. The problem here is that the point the OP started with and the point that Freeze is making now are two different points.

The OP originally stated that the fact that black wrestlers are losing matches right now is an indication of racism. Plain and simple. He was mad that Big E lost the title, and claimed that Big E has done nothing but lose on TV for the last four months. Another poster listed Big E's win/loss record since February, which clearly indicated that this is not, in fact, a true statement, and that point got completely ignored. I can only assume it was ignored because it would mean admitting that part of the original argument was wrong, and it is so difficult to remain righteously indignant when the basis for your indignation is shown to be a fallacy.

I absolutely agree that it is wrong to keep someone from being champion just because of the color of their skin. It is also wrong to make someone champion just because of the color of their skin.

After posting in this thread last night, I went to work and talked to one of my coworkers about it. My coworker is an avid wrestling fan, as well as being a proud black man. I talk to him about wrestling frequently, and he has some really good insights. I often bounce ideas around with him before posting them here. I shared this thread with him and gave him a little time to think about it before asking for his opinion. He made some very strong points for Kofi and Henry. A lot of the points he made were similar to things that have already been talked about in this thread, and they are valid points.

My coworker went a step further though. When he talked about Big E, he did something that neither the OP nor Freeze has done...he suggested ways that Big E could actually get over. You see, the problem with this thread every single time it pops up is that everyone wants to either cry and whine about the big bad racist, or protest and decry the entitlement seeker. What no one ever does is offer constructive ideas on how to fix the problem.

Big E needs a gimmick. He has the look and the size that Vince likes, and he has a lot of upside that will just get better with more experience. He needs something that will help him connect with the fans though. For the OP, apparently that something is "be black". For the majority of fans, however, there needs to be a little more to it than that. The 5 count, for example. That was an awesome gimmick for him in NXT. The problem with that gimmick on the Main Roster is that he often finds himself working with more established names, and using the 5 count would likely result in him winning clean a lot less often in order to protect guys higher in the pecking order.

Something just occurred to me though, a gimmick that would quite possibly launch him into that top spot you want for him, and it is a gimmick that once belonged to the man that, ironically enough, was once promised the spot of the WWE's first black world champion. I'm talking about Bad News Brown. Brown was a legit badass, an Olympic athlete in Judo. He was a guy that didn't really care if you were a heel or a face, he was going to destroy you. He walked out on his team at two Survivor Series events because he didn't care about the guys on either side. He won the battle royal at WM4 by double-crossing the then-heel Bret Hart (the spot that started Bret Hart's face turn) and he even had a few title shots against Hogan.

Big E could pull this off. Start with a tag team match, Big E and a guy like Ziglar, or maybe Rey, against Rybaxl. His partner takes the pin, and Big E destroys him after the match. The next week he tags with ADR against Rey and say Sheamus, ADR takes the pin, and gets destroyed after the match. Follow that with a six-man tag, teaming with Rybaxl against Rey and the Usos. Big E watches Curtis Axle get beat down for a while, shaking his head in disgust the whole time. Refuses to tag in, and eventually just walks away. Later in the show he is getting interviewed by Renee Young when a brawl between Ziglar and ADR interrupts the interview, he destroys both men.

This goes on for a couple of months, he just destroys everyone he comes into contact with, heel or face. Eventually, he ends up in a battle royal, maybe even the Royal Rumble, makes it to the last three with Cena and Orton. The two of them stare him down, he waves them off and steps between the middle ropes and starts to walk down the steps (not over the top, and he stops before the floor). Orton takes advantage of the opportunity to attack Cena, the action focuses inside the ring, and Langston is still standing on the steps watching. He lets them beat up on each other for a while, then jumps back in and attacks Cena while he has Orton up for an AA near the ropes, and throws both men out. Now you have Big E in the Main Event of Wrestlemania, and it doesn't matter who the champion is because heel or face, Big E is coming for you. He doesn't care who it is, Big E hates everyone. That would be interesting.

Or, y'know, just give it to him because he's black.

 

[bxbigshow]

Darkside Eric
But trying to squash arguments by saying:



Quote:

No "there wasn't anyone main event worthy" on your part.
No "do you want to see Darren Young with the title?" on your part.
About a subjective industry (subjective as in, who's good, who's not, who the crowd likes, etc) is a fairly stone wall thing to do.

I say that only because no one (at least on this forum) has admitted as such without bringing up those points. I comes back as "justifiable" bias in my opinion.

therockiswwf:
No one said Swagger deserved it. But show me how WWE only gave Swagger the title because he was white. That is the problem with the argument. Swagger was not given the title because of his skin color.

I never said that WWE gave Swagger the title because he was white. This is how the cycle of this argument goes below.

Me: I find it odd that WWE has only hasn't had 1 black first time Main Event champion between 2002 and 2010 (my older post). While they've had 18 or so non-black guys win it...why is that?

Opposing View: Well that's because there weren't any black guys deserving of that run in that time. No one was good enough.

Me: So....Jack Swagger was 'deserving' and 'good enough'?

I love how I never in any of my statements said that WWE gave these "undeserving" non-black athletes their runs because of their skin tone. Yet that is how I am approached.
At the same time I never said that black Superstars never got their opportunities because of their skin tone.

All I ask, for the 30th time by now is that WWE "takes a chance" on black guys, the same way they do with non-blacks.

And by take a chance I mean:
Hot-shot a guy to a main title like Jack Swagger to test crowd reaction.
Give a guy a MITB win/surprise cash in and give him a month or two to hold that spot like Swagger/Miz/Ziggler.
Place him in main event Championship feuds with a "chance" of winning. The same with ADR/Ziggler/Miz/Christian.

And I do not mean:
Make him put on great matches/high spots with no reward in the end. (Kofi Kingston)
Have him do EVERYTHING else in the company except win a major title. (Lashley/Ezekiel/Ahmed)
Have him pin the Champion in a non-title match with no title shot to follow. (Kofi v. Orton)

Go'head...flame me.

 

[TheJF]

What has happened to the OP? I thought we were discussing how every black wrestler is on a permanent losing streak? Oh wait that's not true so it has been ignored.

And now we get more black wrestling fans who want positive discrimination*. The thing is, all I've read is that white wrestlers have been given a chance as opposed to black wrestlers. Whilst this statement is true, there has been very little reason to hot shot a black wrestler into the spotlight until they get a reaction. WWE has only ever cared about money, if they genuinely believed that a wrestler was going to generate them money and buy rates, they would push them. Sure there have been wrestlers that have been hotshotted before they've got a reaction, and sure as hell these have been white wrestlers, however as has been pointed out a high number of fans are white and therefore relate better to white wrestlers, this means that the fans will probably respond better to them.


*Positive discrimination is when somebody is rewarded or given something over someone more deserving purely because of race.

 

[Jetpack]

OH MY GOD Let it go already....
Black people are always concentrating on race. POOOOOOR YOU.
Rock doesn't count, you say??? Why not? He's more black than Kim Jung Obama.
It's always about race, never about the people, themselves.
Here's the facts: There hasn't been an all black wrestler popular enough to become champ. Someday there will be, but not yet. The WWE is a product centered around profit. If it were profitable, it would happen.

Here's a better AMERICAN option. Start your own wrestling company. Do it your way. Don't let anyone tell you how to run your business. See how big you become.

As far as crying over racism, it is an industry. The biggest names in anti-racism profit from it. We all know who they are and long as they exist, racism isn't going anywhere.

Until then be proud of the cultural mix in the WWE. They're all superstars. They all made it.

 

[JoeFromTomsRiver]

*Positive discrimination is when somebody is rewarded or given something over someone more deserving purely because of race.

Kind of like Koko B. Ware being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame.

I can name a hundred or so white guys who had more of an impact then he did.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

And Big E had won one match on Raw in the beginning of March, which was a roll up pin fall because they were starting the beginning of the destruction of the real american tag team, other than that, no he hasn't won on raw since february. I have the link to prove it so I can say whatever I want. And I never said Big E is miles better than Cesaro, i stated they are on the same level, it's just that Cesaro is being pushed to high hell and Big E burial process started in end of February, early march.

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but from what I have read it just seems like it's going in circles now. I just have to correct you on this one point you keep throwing out there to prove your case...

Big E has been jobbing since February. It's wrong.

Since February, here's Big E's entire record:

TV/PPV record

W - 20
L - 9

*losses include the WM battle royal, as well as tag team and six man's he's been a part of. His singles losses include 2 non-title losses to Del Rio (which he gained back when the title was on the line), the title loss to Barrett and the rematch loss to Barrett. On RAW in singles, he's been 10-2

House Show record

W - 22
L - 0

Total Record

W - 42
L - 9

The guy didn't get the greatest push as IC champion (no real angles with the belt), but he wasn't jobbing. He was out there every week winning his matches.

source

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=16148&jahr=2014&monat=2

 

[Kidpolean]

This is probably the most ridiculous discussion ive ever seen on here and BOTH sides are wrong...

1. Does The Rock count? well sure but even slave owners had one black person that stayed in the house. If a school has 9000 white students and 1 black student does that automatically take away the possibility of them being racist? HELL NO IT DOESNT!!! This type of thinking actually SHOWS that there is a problem because you can only point out one freakin guy. Now im not saying the wwe is racist because I truly dont believe they are BUT this arguments sounds like something an actual racist would say to try and justify their racist actions. Be very careful when using this argument, and honestly this argument is more upsetting to me than the op's actual statement. It shocks me that fans think that ONE is sufficient enough for an entire race.

2. To the people stating that the wwe is racist, you are ignoring other possible variables. I honestly cant think of a black wrestler that I, a black person, would have booked into winning the wwe title. The argument of Jack Swagger won the world title is childish, ever hear of two WRONGS dont make a RIGHT? As far as stereotype characters goes, there are also white ones that you guys are ignoring like the mean street posse, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and Hunter Hearst Hemsley.

Either way, nobody will win this argument and it will never end. This is all a matter of opinion. Some people will argue that there was nothing wrong with slavery or the holocaust but who are we to tell them that they are wrong? If you believe the wwe is racist than do something about it...start a petition or something. I do believe that there only being one black wwe champ is a problem but I think its because of blacks having little to no interest in pro wrestling NOT because of racism.

As someone has pointed out already, you cant really have a fair argument on this if you are two different cultures because our views are so different. White people are usually OBLIVIOUS to racism and Black people are usually REALLY QUICK to label something racist. If you take into account these two things, and try to start a argument about racism, 9 times out of 10 it will just turn into some bias bullshit that is teetering on the edge of being a full on racist conversation which IMO is exactly what has happened here.

 

[hbkhhh44]

Lol what an ignorant post.

Mark henry has been gifted a career in the wwe. Most people with his lack of ring skills and dull promo work (up until about 3 years ago) would have been fired a long time ago. I dont know how he lasted this long. Remember this is the same guy who was sent back to ovw after being on the main roster because he lacked the necessary skills. He has been in far more main events than anyone cared to see him in
Its the damn opposite of bad treatment due to color. I will admit that he recently seemed to put things together in the past few years but its too little too late. Add on the injuries and his age what do you expect the company to do with him?

Big E was given a big opportunity but the fans didnt support him. They did at first be he lost steam quickly. And this wasnt a result of bad booking. He was destroying every week, people stopped caring. I think they tried him out with the ic title and small push to see how the fans would react. If they reacted more favorably he would have probably had a big accelerated push

 

[boywithbluehanger]

1a - The number of white to black wrestlers is far apart and therefore a higher number of "unappealing" (see 1b) white wrestlers will get chances, however there are far more white wrestlers being "buried" and "jobbing" then black wrestlers. This is because of the number of wrestlers and the fact that not everybody can be on top.

You'd have a point if I actually said ANYWHERE that the few blacks on the roster should be given the same amount of reigns as the many non-blacks. But I didn't say or allude to that so your point is meaningless as a reply.

1b - "unappealing" in who's opinion? A large portion of the audience (universe) enjoy similar wrestler, just because you find them "unappealing" this doesn't make it a a fact

Unappealing in the sense that I've seen guys who have garnered very little crowd reactions and miniscule merchandise sales, get runs with the title.

That is because you are wrong.

I have mentioned before why Ziggler and ADR got shots. Swagger getting a shot was not because he was white. He had an impressive background, hadn't gotten a big time shot yet, young and had a great look. That is why they gave him a shot, not because of his skin color.

I never mentioned that Swagger got a shot because he was white. My statements mentioned that there's a POSSIBILITY that there's a racial bias against black wrestlers obtaining the title. "Pro-white" is not the debate..."Anti-black" is the subject here.

Don't you remember what happened to R-Truth? He got suspended for violating the drug policy and that is when all his momentum died. No one to blame but himself.

That doesn't explain why he hasn't had an opportunity to have a run with any of the top titles during his time with the company. He's certainly been on the roster and at physically a part of the show a lot more than he's been suspended watching it from home. Especially since other non-black guys who have had problems with wellness policies have been given top-titles after the fact. It's still very much a matter of deciding to do it or not.

MVP was around 36 or so when he got hot. His lose to Orton killed his momentum. The rumor was Vince didn't like MVP as a face. But you do have to admit MVP was pushed very hard when he debuted and you could tell WWE thought he was going to be something. MVP and Kennedy got to do a massive feud with Kane and Undertaker for a good while. Not everyone can get that. Plus his age I still feel was what ultimately prevented him from becoming a world champ.

Kofi Kingston has only shown one tiny glimpse of being a top guy. Ever since then, he has never done anything to show he should reach that level again.

MVP may have been in his mid 30s but plenty of guys have had runs with titles in their mid 30s. Like I said before, it has more to do with appeal. MVP certainly had the ability to speak coherently on the mic and got over as a heel earlier in his start-up run with the US title. Also, he won the crowd over during his 20+ match losing streak storyline where he had a face turn. All efforts for him were halted until he finally felt the need to leave. Personally I don't blame him since all signs were pointed to them focusing on Swagger, Ziggler, McIntyre, ADR, Barret, and Sheamus. (4 of which are guys whose WWE singles careers came after MVP's yet got experimental runs with top-titles)

Wow. Henry got a gimmick (that as I have stated before, Brodus Clay pitched and creative gave it to Henry) and fully embraced it. You see before, he wasn't entertaining. Henry was boring for a very long time and never did anything to show he was anything more than a generic monster. Sometimes it takes people awhile to figure it out. Henry wasn't given the World Title as a thank you, he legitimately deserved it so they had him beat the number two guy in the company for it.

Also his original contract was rumored to be a ten year, multi-million dollar contract. Yeah the WWE really hated the guy.

Out of the handful of guys I mentioned, all of them get/got mostly unresponsive reactions from most live crowds for the exception of Sheamus' first 2 years. So the fact that Henry was held back without ANY experimental top-title reigns for over 14yrs, shows how unfair that decision was. A guy like ADR can't get anyone to care yet he's won the WHC twice and the WWE championship once. Ziggler can't get most of the crowds (that aren't at special events) to give two shits about him yet even he got an experimental run. Neither of them were considered entertaining (if you go by crowd response) nor were they good "business decisions". They were experimental title-reigns to see if the wrestlers were able to get over on their own steam. **SPOILER ALERT**...they did not.

Or you just try to blame race instead of realizing that some wrestlers don't have talent.

Like I said before I'm stating that there's a possibility of a racial bias. To assume that there isn't when there's nothing but proof that says otherwise, would mean that you either:

A. Have solid evidence to prove your reasoning or...

B. Don't want to accept the possibility that it could be the case

 

[Planet_Velvet]

I am an African American wrestler and I have been trained by Bill DeMott. I do not think that race is the issue here. I think that the company is drifting more toward larger than life characters in the figurative and literal sense. I've worked shows with Xavier Woods and he's a little shorter than me and I'm 6'1". Big E is a big dude but he's not eve 6 feet tall. The closest guy who could probably be a major player on looks alone would be Titus O'Neal. He's big, muscular, and needs a little fine tuning in the promo department. Over time, he could learn and grow more. But ulitimately, the business is entertainment. And considering the big man criteria has worked in the past when WWE was doing big things and pushing guys to look like superheroes to their young audience a few decades back, there's no reason not to go back to the formula. WWE caters to kids. Those kids want superheroes. John Cena is WWE's flagship, but he is the same height Randy Savage was. There's a reason they are phasing him out.. ...and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin.

Follow me on twitter at @TeamVelvet

 

[TheJF]

You'd have a point if I actually said ANYWHERE that the few blacks on the roster should be given the same amount of reigns as the many non-blacks. But I didn't say or allude to that so your point is meaningless as a reply.



Unappealing in the sense that I've seen guys who have garnered very little crowd reactions and miniscule merchandise sales, get runs with the title.

You wrote, and I quote "black men have not been given the same opportunities with the title as unappealing non-black guys have" that implies that you feel they should have the same number of chances/reigns!

Please give me a list of these "unappealing" wrestlers and I genuinely believe that a good reason could be given for any/all of them at one time or another

 

[boywithbluehanger]

You wrote, and I quote "black men have not been given the same opportunities with the title as unappealing non-black guys have" that implies that you feel they should have the same number of chances/reigns!

Please give me a list of these "unappealing" wrestlers and I genuinely believe that a good reason could be given for any/all of them at one time or another

"Same opportunities" doesn't imply same NUMBER of opportunities as ALL the combined non-black wrestlers. -_- That would be insane. That would mean that for every failed non-black wrestler who gets an experimental run with the title, a black person (who probably already got a shot with it), might get yet another shot with the title even if he previously failed with it! That wouldn't be fair at all.

This is the importance of using context clues when reading. I'm obviously not going to be in favor for unfairly treating everyone else in favor for one group of people. That's the entire basis of a thread like this in the first place.

My point was and is:
People like Swagger, Ziggler, and ADR got top-title runs within their first 5 years as singles wrestlers within WWE whereas no black midcarders who were/are as over (arguably more over at some points - when factoring in consistent crowd response) ever got a chance.

 

[Torgo]

"Same opportunities" doesn't imply same NUMBER of opportunities as ALL the combined non-black wrestlers. -_- That would be insane. That would mean that for every failed non-black wrestler who gets an experimental run with the title, a black person (who probably already got a shot with it), might get yet another shot with the title even if he previously failed with it! That wouldn't be fair at all.

This is the importance of using context clues when reading. I'm obviously not going to be in favor for unfairly treating everyone else in favor for one group of people. That's the entire basis of a thread like this in the first place.

My point was and is:
People like Swagger, Ziggler, and ADR got top-title runs within their first 5 years as singles wrestlers within WWE whereas no black midcarders who were/are as over (arguably more over at some points - when factoring in consistent crowd response) ever got a chance.

Is this thread seriously still going on? For 17 pages?


Again, perhaps you werent listening the first time I saif this: It DOESENT MATTER WHAT COLOR THE WRESTLER IS IT IS A MATTER OF TALENT AND CROWD ACCEPTANCE. If they are talentless and the crowd wont connect, would YOU still want them in the main event? Would you ratehr have Darren Young instead of CM Punk holding the belt for 434 days?

 

[JohnJohnson]

Some people like to counter this argument with the fact that The Rock won several championships and is one of the top guys in the WWE. But there are a couple things to this. ONe is the fact that Rock is not someone who is generally thought of as black, and is more often associated with his Somoan heritage. Second of all, he is a 3rd generation superstar, and they always get a push, some flop some don't. But here is an interesting thing to note. My first job I worked at McDonalds. Now it wasn't a spoken rule, but generally speaking the darker you were, the further back you were in the kitchen. Of the black guys there, only the light skinned ones that were mixed were ever working on the front counter. Me, being mixed was trained on register my first day. Most of the dark skinned black guys never touched a register there and usually spent their first day working the grill or making nuggets. The front counter and drive thru were all females and light skinned people. WWE has never had a dark skinned guy at the top, ever.

Some people argue that they just aren't as talented or just don't draw as much. Well Booker T is very talented, was a well established veteran when he came to WWE and is extremely charismatic. Did he ever get the big belt? No. He did get the WCW/WHC, but only when it was the second rate belt. All the talent he had to offer and they would put him in shitty comedy roles.

I think Bobby Lashley is an interesting case as well. He had the look and everything. He didn't have the mic skills, but neither did Goldberg or Brock Lesnar. He had an ammateur wrestling background as did Lesnar. He had the perfect look for the face of the company, except that he was too dark. They gave him a push but only gave him a world championship belt when they created a third world title for the "C" show.

Mark Henry was over in the Attitude Era. As a heel, he got lots of heat and as a face he got cheered. He was very athletic for his size, he was an olympian, and he looked impressive. They gave him the European title. Nothing else for what a decade? Then the give him the "C" show championship belt. It was like that is where they would push their black guys. He won the WHC during a time where it wasn't very relevant and they were pretty much experimenting with it.

Ron Simmons was a very talented wrestler, and even said in his promos before that the WWE has never had a black champion. He was already a former world champion when he arrived in the WWE. They didn't put him in the main event scene. As a tag partner with Bradshaw, he was immensley over and very talented. He had an established name. What do they do, disband them and push the white guy to the top.

These are all facts.

 

[boywithbluehanger]

Is this thread seriously still going on? For 17 pages?


Again, perhaps you werent listening the first time I saif this: It DOESENT MATTER WHAT COLOR THE WRESTLER IS IT IS A MATTER OF TALENT AND CROWD ACCEPTANCE. If they are talentless and the crowd wont connect, would YOU still want them in the main event? Would you ratehr have Darren Young instead of CM Punk holding the belt for 434 days?

If you would have actually read my response, you would have seen that I often referred to the exact same point. You must be lost. Actually READ my last 2 responses instead of assuming you know what I wrote and acting as if you're responding to them.

If it's just a matter of talent and crowd response, then guys like MVP, Kofi, and R-Truth WOULD HAVE already gotten top-titles. R-Truth was over as a babyface chanting, "WHAT'S UP!" and orchestrating the chant frequently during matches. It was cheap babyface tactics but it doesn't change the fact that it worked. He also managed to get himself over as a caricature of a unintelligent conspiracy theorist. Kofi consistently has gotten good crowd responses since his debut. So obviously it's not just crowd responses that matter when it comes to making the decision about who and who not to give the top-titles to. Especially when you consider the less-than-over guys that I mentioned who DID get experimental top-title runs. I feel like a broken record here. Please...PLEASE....read the replies you respond to. I can't express this enough. It would behoove you and avoid making yourself look lazy and ignorant.

 

[bxbigshow]

I love the cycle of this argument:

Black guy: Black wrestlers are "held down"/"held back"/not pushed enough. White guys with less in their "toolbox" got pushes. Is it possible that race may be a factor?

White guy: It's not about race, it's about talent/crowd response/who's over.

Black guy: R-Truth/Kofi Kingston both were over and have crowd response. Big E has talent, a look, and very personable. Why can't they get similar opportunities?

White guy: You had the Rock! Your other ******* were unworthy!

Back guy: As oppose to the white unworthies? Like Swagger/RVD/Hardy? (some of us) The Rock doesn't count because he never acknowledges his black half.

White guy: So you get one guy (Rock) but he doesn't count? How convenient... Okay Swagger was unworthy, but he doesn't count because...your other ******* are unworthy!

**This will just keep going until a mod shuts it down due to repetitiveness.**

And to those who make the assumption that I or anyone would rather Darren Young or Xavier Wood hold the WWE title as oppose to CM Punk for 400+ days...really? No. I do not equal those two to CM Punk. I equal Jack Swagger to Big E/Bobby Lashley, Alberto Del Rio to R-Truth/Shelton Benjiman, The Miz to Shelton/Kofi Kingston, and Jeff Hardy to Kingston.

Do not insult me by taking the worst from one group and comparing them to the best from the other group...and then call me unrealistic.

 

[boywithbluehanger]

It's more like this.

Me: Black wrestlers are "held down"/"held back"/not pushed enough. White guys with less in their "toolbox" got pushes. Is it possible that race may be a factor?

Dumdum: It's not about race, it's about talent/crowd response/who's over.

Me: R-Truth/Kofi Kingston both were over and have crowd response. Big E has talent, a look, and very personable. Why can't they get similar opportunities?

Dumdum: It's not about race, it's about talent/crowd response/who's over.

Me: -_-

Dumdum: It's not about race, it's about talent/crowd response/who's over.

Me: ...

 

[Pedigree1]

Angels;4884113]As a black male watch wrestling, I have been apalled by the treatment that black wrestlers had, as every single one has been placed in jobber mode, Mark Henry has been tossed to the wolves getting absolutely destroyed by the shield and later Brock Lesnar. R-truth and Xavier woods has been the laughing stock, also jobbing to everyone in sight, and even worse, Kofi Kingston, who loss to 3mb for christ sake. But even with all the signs pointing towards that direction, there was one shining light in Big E. But even I could see Big E was going through some of the worst booking recent history. He hasn't had a victory or raw/smackdown since february. Let me repeat that, FEBRUARY. He was completely off the microphone for almost the entire time. For christ sake, the intercontinental tournament was on Raw and Smackdown yet Big E was neglected to Main Event and Superstars. But still, I held hope that perhaps they might do a turn around, and actually treat big e with importance. Instead, he loses.

So I have to say thank you WWE, I think Big E was the last straw that finally allowed for me to distance myself from the show. I've been a major follower for years, but it seems like somehow Donald Sterling ended up being hired at the WWE as Black Wrestlers are clearly treated as second class wrestlers, and it's horrid. So when things may change, and they actually decide to treat someone with my skin color as actually important, I might start watching again, but the WWE has finally gotten me to stop watching their programs.

First of all,this article took a lot of guts and congratulations to you on doing so. I know this particular article already is 17 pages and counting,but again dont let the haters discourage you from posting further articles.. Welcome to the board. Now on to the subject at hand.

Like the Butcher,I honestly try to be colorblind as possible cheer and boo for whoever i feel like.. I feel they have underused Kofi always have felt that way. He has amazing athletic ability,and while not the best Mic talker ring wise,he is one of the best..

Big E langston,i still think his future is bright.. A heel turn might help him he is kind of stuck in Limbo as far as faces goes,he is a brute,and strong as all hell.. Plus for his size he moves like a gazelle. Amazing ability he has,a little more to learn but he is catching on quickly.. I would like to think the WWE,as being as big as they are,with activities such as Anti-bullying and what have you,they would be aware of this issue.. And im sure they are.. I am not going to bring up past guys,only going to keep this current.. Titus O'Neal is someone who is destined to break out,how do you spell Champion T-I-T-U-S! That promo was epic,genius and people backstage gave him a standing ovation.. I guess all i can say is be patient and please dont leave these boards or quit watching WWE

 

[JohnJohnson]

Titus is someone who can easily be built into the main event, but instead is rarely on the main show and when he is, he is usually jobbing.

Big E had a good thing going, but then they did nothing for him. No interesting feuds or anything. He was basically just used to help split up the Real Americans and help push Cesaro.

Now would be a good time for someone like them to get into the world title scene, for one simple reason. Daniel Bryan thrives on that underdog status. When the odds are against him, either against a faction or a much larger opponent, like Kane, or Show and Henry in his first WHC reign. Have Titus step up and feud with Bryan, or have Big E turn heel on Bryan. It is guaranteed to provide a great match and really show people that these guys can be top contenders. They don't necessarily need to win yet, but at least establish themselves as main event contenders.

 

[FreezeIzGAWD]

Okay I am amazed at how people keep changing what I am saying. I did not say that all whites get treated fairly. I am not saying that all minorities are not given a shot. I am simply saying that the WWE has a REPEATED pattern of not pushing Black starts to the top. I do not understand how this can be disputed. When I said that Simmons paved the way for the Rock to have the belt I am saying that I truly believe had WCW not done it first it would have NEVER happened in the E and history supports that. There has only been OONE BLACK CHAMPION in the whole 60years of the E and he is mixed. I am not diminishing the Rock’s reign I am simply stating facts. THE WWE has NEVER had a 100% AFRICAN AMERICAN CHAMPION. Period. They have had Irish and Latino and White but NEVER A BLACK ONE! Wher e is the dispute? You guys cannot tell me that not one star since the conception of the league has not had star qualities for even a two week run? Not the JYD ( who at once was one of the biggest stars in WRESTLING PERIOD. Check his popularity in the Mid-South days), Not Bobo Brazil (the first Black US champion), not Shelton Benjamin or Kofi Kingston ( two of the most athletic wrestlers in history), not Mark Henry( a RECORD SETTING WORLD CLASS POWERLIFTER, an OLYMPIC athlete, THE STRONGEST MAN IN THE WORLD AND a guy who cut on of the most Memorable promos in RAW history), not the Godfather (who U can argue this and that but he has the size, charisma and at one time was the MOST OVER guy in the E), not Bobby Lashley ( who had the look, the credentials and was a former member of the armed forces), not R-Truth who at one time brought respectibilty to the TNA title, not ANY BLACK MALE AT ALL! Matter of fact unless I am mistaken the only Black ever in a Closing Main Event at WM is MR.T!!! Sorry I cannot buy it. Oh and if it was such a non-issue and without merit then why do wrestlers keep bringing up the issue themselves and filing lawsuits against the WWE for racial discrimination?

Now the thing I hate about race issues is that if you bring them up you are crying and whining. I am doing NEITHER. I love wrestling and I love the E. I am just pointing out a flaw that I see. It is funny because when it came to DB people on this very site said he was not getting a fair shake because he did not fit the cookie cutter Vince and Triple H model. Triple H even did a program about it and people openly criticized the E for not giving DB a push and yet the same thing happened with Booker T and the E basically implied it was because he was a black male from the ghetto and TRIPLE H also made a program about it an we are saying that it is unfair and we are CRYING and calling racism. Well show me differently. Don’t say opinions. Show facts. Facts the E has been sued for and lost cases for racial discrimination. Facts the E has only had one Black Male as the Main Even in 60 years and he is a mixed lighted skinned male. Fact it took 17 years for an African American to even win a secondary singles title. Fact right now there is not ONE Black athlete who is not on a Losing streak in the E and receiving a major push.

So where am I wrong?

 

[TheJF]

"Same opportunities" doesn't imply same NUMBER of opportunities as ALL the combined non-black wrestlers. -_- That would be insane. That would mean that for every failed non-black wrestler who gets an experimental run with the title, a black person (who probably already got a shot with it), might get yet another shot with the title even if he previously failed with it! That wouldn't be fair at all.

This is the importance of using context clues when reading. I'm obviously not going to be in favor for unfairly treating everyone else in favor for one group of people. That's the entire basis of a thread like this in the first place.

My point was and is:
People like Swagger, Ziggler, and ADR got top-title runs within their first 5 years as singles wrestlers within WWE whereas no black midcarders who were/are as over (arguably more over at some points - when factoring in consistent crowd response) ever got a chance.

I appreciate that I may have misread/misunderstood your first point and will hold my hands up at that.


However when it comes to Swagger, Ziggler and ADR I feel that all 3 of those got the title at some point with justification.

Swagger is the D1 college amateur wrestling superstar with an imposing look and solid mat base, WWE thought that they could mould him into Kurt Angle v2

Ziggler is another outstanding amateut wrestler who was getting pretty good heat while with Vickie, and then got a mammoth pop when he cashed in MITB

ADR was paid a hell of a lot of money to come from Mexico, where he was star, WWE hoped that he could be the face to the hispanic fans and therefore wanted to give him multiple shots.


During this time, the only black wrestler that may have got a transitional run would have been maybe Kofi when he had his short program with Orton and since maybe Big E. However neither man has really had any character development or surge in crowd popularity and the WWE has decided that this wouldn't be worth the risk.




The main issue I have with this thread is that it appears that many of the arguments are that Black wrestlers shouldn't lose or they should be pushed purely because they are black, and this is positive discrimination.

 

[FreezeIzGAWD]

NO...

Far from it...

I know myself and most Blacks don't want anyone to get something totally undeserved...

I don't think anyone here feels JTG should be Champ before the years is up just because he is Black. That is ridiculous and UNFAIR. We are just saying that in general a Black athlete who is getting over does not get pushed as hard or as frequently as white stars.

This is CANNOT be disputed because the numbers and history shows it.

Instead of thinking we are insulting white or Latino athletes understand that we are saying we would like just one star of African American descent to be more than just a jobber because we watch as well and would like to have someone of color to root for as well....

BUT NO ONE CAN ROOT FOR A GUY WHO ALWAYS LOSES!!!!!

 

[harrythem]

When I said that Simmons paved the way for the Rock to have the belt I am saying that I truly believe had WCW not done it first it would have NEVER happened in the E and history supports that.

Apart from the amazing charisma and all round talent that The Rock possessed meaning there was no way he wasn't going to get a push to the top. Hell within 2 year of his debut on screen he won the title. That's nothing to do with Ron Simmons, that's because he was that damn good.

There has only been ONE BLACK CHAMPION in the whole 60 years of the E and he is mixed. I am not diminishing the Rock’s reign I am simply stating facts. THE WWE has NEVER had a 100% AFRICAN AMERICAN CHAMPION. Period. They have had Irish and Latino and White but NEVER A BLACK ONE! Where is the dispute?

So The Rock's black enough to count as a world champion, but not black enough for your liking? If it was Irish people getting pissed off because Sheamus is being called the first UK champion, I could understand it, but that, nope.

You guys cannot tell me that not one star since the conception of the league has not had star qualities for even a two week run? Not the JYD ( who at once was one of the biggest stars in WRESTLING PERIOD. Check his popularity in the Mid-South days)

JYD arrived during the initial boom period of Hulk Hogan so, let's be real, there was no way anyone with any business sense was going to take the title off of that cash cow Hogan (who connected with EVERYONE) unless it was due to a massive injury...when it came for Hogan to drop the title, Savage had connected massively and was a logical replacement. JYD was a victim of bad timing.

Not Bobo Brazil (the first Black US champion),

He was in the WWWF during the record reign of Bruno Sammartino...again, why would you take the belt off of THE guy and risk house business dropping when he's keeping it thriving?

not Shelton Benjamin or Kofi Kingston ( two of the most athletic wrestlers in history)

Apparently Billy Gunn was athletic too, he never got a chance in the main event for the same reason Shelton & Kofi haven't, they don't click to a main event standard...Although I will say Shelton deserved miles better than that Mama gimmick he got stuck with.

not Mark Henry( a RECORD SETTING WORLD CLASS POWERLIFTER, an OLYMPIC athlete, THE STRONGEST MAN IN THE WORLD AND a guy who cut on of the most Memorable promos in RAW history),

Henry was employed from 1996 and, apart from the Sexual Chocolate phase in 1998, did a whole load of fuck all until about 2007. His promos were useless at the time, his matches were fucking awful...He excelled at a lower-card comedy act then, eventually, he worked as a higher card monster...Henry got a world title anyway!

not the Godfather (who U can argue this and that but he has the size, charisma and at one time was the MOST OVER guy in the E)

The fuck did I just read? Most over at a period including Austin, Vince, Rock, DX, The Nation? Shut The Front Door! He had numerous chances but sucked ass and only the girls got a reaction, not him (go back and see how little people cared about him when the girls weren't there).

not Bobby Lashley ( who had the look, the credentials and was a former member of the armed forces)

You mean the guy that was absolutely dominating in a feud against Vince & Shane? Who was the (least charismatic/talented) person in the battle of the billionaires? The guy that WWE strapped a rocket too and were clearly pushing to the moon but who decided to leave because of woman issues? Yeah, that's the damn WWE's fault....

not R-Truth who at one time brought respectibilty to the TNA title

Did he? The TNA title was basically on the level with the IC title so that would really show what level R Truth should be aiming for.

unless I am mistaken the only Black ever in a Closing Main Event at WM is MR.T!!!

Surely it's 1 1/2 black men in the main event if we're going to count The Rock (or is he still not black enough, you don't really seem committed either way)

Oh and if it was such a non-issue and without merit then why do wrestlers keep bringing up the issue themselves and filing lawsuits against the WWE for racial discrimination?

I think you're mistaking WWE with WCW as WCW was sued for racial issues, WWE has never been successfully sued for racial discrimination and, if it's as clear as you're saying it is, if they had they'd surely lose?

same thing happened with Booker T and the E basically implied it was because he was a black male from the ghetto and TRIPLE H also made a program about it an we are saying that it is unfair and we are CRYING and calling racism.

I'll agree that was one of the most distasteful programmes I've ever seen in WWE. By the way, you should've used Booker there for your example, he was definitely deserving of being main event then.

Don’t say opinions. Show facts. Facts the E has been sued for and lost cases for racial discrimination.

This whole thread is based on opinions...where is the proof that WWE has lost racial discrimination cases? I had a look and can't find a single one and, as a publicly traded company, I'm sure we'd be able to see them.

Facts the E has only had one Black Male as the Main Even in 60 years and he is a mixed lighted skinned male.

So we're not counting Mr T? Or Bobby Lashley being in the main drawing point of Wrestlemania 23? R Truth getting 2 PPV main events against Cena? Hell throw Cena in there too if we're counting his thug life gimmick (we'll just pretend he's a bit light, like the Rock)

there is not ONE Black athlete who is not on a Losing streak in the E and receiving a major push.

Because none deserve it? Bryan's getting his push because the fans demanded it....Barrett's push is a wait and see (and, judging by the way the IC champ has been treated for the last few years, I'd say Big E is more in line to succeed than BNB now)

So where am I wrong?

No idea mate

 

[FreezeIzGAWD]

I hate in when people use exception to rules and make that there argument. That is like Me saying Coke outsells Pepsi worldwide and you saying “No way because everybody in my house drinks Pepsi!” That is great but it does not change the facts. Do you know there have been cases of date rape in which women take advantage of Men? That is the exception to the rule more than the norm.

I did not say that the Rock was not Black enough for Me. I did not even imply it. I even said the Rock was one of my all-time favorite wrestlers. I merely said he is mixed. Which is a FACT! He is half Samaon. Throughout history Black Men of lighter shades have been accepted more by White America. These are also facts. Even during slavery the lighter Blacks were brought into the house. These are facts you can look up. I did not knock the Rock I simply said there has NEVER been a 100% Black Male as a WWE Champion. Where am I wrong?

I also laugh that fact that I said Blacks do not get pushed as much as other races and you gave Me three Names. Okay I will concede everyone you listed. Bobby Lashley, The Rock and Mr.T have all been in the Main Event at the WM. Okay so given YOUR numbers that is a one Black Star every DECADE average considering this is WM 30. Well I stand corrected. Once a DECADE is more than enough. Oh why stop there, why not include Money May and LT? I just want to point out that if that is the case then out of the 5 Blacks that have been a Main Eventer in WM 3 were non wrestlers. One was bigger than the WWF at the time he was booked. Yes Mr. T was larger than the WWF at WM. So using your figures you have 1 Black Champion in 62 years and 2 Black wrestlers in the WM main events and you are then saying that there is not a lower proportion of African Americans getting pushed in the E. Okay.

Now just because a person does NOT win a lawsuit does not mean it did not happen. Ben Roethlisberger had 2 cases of rape brought up against him by 2 different women. He was not convicted of neither so does that mean they were never filed? Michael Jackson had 2 child molestation cases brought up against him and did not lose does that mean charges were never filed. The WWE has been known to quietly settle off the books a look of racial and sexual issues before they make national attention but that does not mean they do not exist.

The facts remain the same. Black wrestlers do not get pushed as often as other races. THE NUMBERS PROVE IT.