Lack of Black Champs

[CelticCorey]

You're probably the only one who thinks he isn't good enough. Why was Sheamus pushed so quick? HHH. Why Del Rio? I can imagine it's because he's already 33 and because Rey wanted him in WWE. How is his mic skills crap? The man cut a good promo tonight. I like his mic skills.

I think Kofi is main event ready because of how good of a proper mid-carder he has been. He has held both midcard titles and has been tag team champion. What else could it be besides the fact that he is black? That is the only thing I can think of.

I haven't given up on Kofi Kingston and I see him if not a maineventer then an upper midcarder who hopefully will get a title reign. He has that look. He is the kind of guy you could stick on PPV posters. I think WWE should give the guy a chance because I think it could go really well.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

You're probably the only one who thinks he isn't good enough. Why was Sheamus pushed so quick? HHH. Why Del Rio? I can imagine it's because he's already 33 and because Rey wanted him in WWE. How is his mic skills crap? The man cut a good promo tonight. I like his mic skills.

I think Kofi is main event ready because of how good of a proper mid-carder he has been. He has held both midcard titles and has been tag team champion. What else could it be besides the fact that he is black? That is the only thing I can think of.

I haven't given up on Kofi Kingston and I see him if not a maineventer then an upper midcarder who hopefully will get a title reign. He has that look. He is the kind of guy you could stick on PPV posters. I think WWE should give the guy a chance because I think it could go really well.

Hey my Irish brethren, I don't think he's good enough. Not YET, at least.

I haven't given up on him either, but he's also not being rushed. Holding the IC Title for a great amount of time and with some solid feuds will allow him to work and keep face the way guys like Hart ad Michaels did. I'm not saying he IS like those guys, but it's a good mold to follow.

Kofi needs to work on his charisma. Same with R-Truth. Ever watch an R-Truth match? Crowd pops for his entrance (unless he gets the city wrong) and then chills out. Kofi gets a better pop and hits his big moves, but he's yet to show me that he can hold a crowd's interest between high spots.

Kofi MAY get there, though it looks togher now with a lot of guys whoeven came in after he did being elevated. But it's not off the table yet.

 

[donutman]

No it isn't, it's an honest statement. Perhaps racism may be part of the reason white fans don't want to see a black champion in some cases, but the statement itself is far from racist. It's just an accurate portrayal of the way things are.

Don't go around accusing people of racism if you don't know what you're talking about.

Sorry, spin it all you want but to say white people don't want to see a black champion, is a bit of a racist statement. That is like mentioning white people don't want to see a black golfer win the Ryder Cup. I have no problem with people saying that there aren't many black world champs because there hasn't been many that were good enough. That is a good point, I won't dispute.

Now wait a minute, you're getting confused.

Cheering for someone, and paying money to see them are two ENTIRELY different things. I'll occasionally enjoy watching an NBA basketball game, but that doesn't mean I'd ever pay money for one or for their merchandise. Don't get the two issues mixed up. No one is saying people won't cheer for a black champion, what I'm saying is they won't pay money to watch one.

BIG difference.

Again, don't confuse people cheering for people paying money. They are two entirely separate issues.

What exactly are we talking about here because you did say:

You want to know why there haven't been more black World Champions? Because the fans don't want them.

....traditionally white fans have not been interested in a black champion.

By your words, its not just about people paying money. But ok, you keep bringing up money and being a big draw. Who pays their hard earned money to go see Shaemus or even Jack Swagger? Cmon man, being world champ is about being more than just a draw. I also think white fans would accept a black champion.

So you agree many white fans don't want to see a black culture wrestler as their champion? Thanks for making my point for me.

LOL, was Cena not a "black culture wrestler" with his hip hop gimmick? You know, one of, if not the biggest draw in the WWE today. As for those fans hated Cena for his hip hop gimmick, they are nothing compared to those fans that love and pay to see him.

I don't buy any WWE merchandise and only goto big WWE events in my city, But if I did buy merch or when I do goto shows, race of the wrestlers on the card is the last thing on my mind. I get what you're trying to say. I just think it is racist. I'm sure you don't mean any harm by it, but it really is what it is. And I do have faith in white people that they would pay to see a well deserved black World Champion. Seriously, its 2010 not 1960.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sorry, spin it all you want but to say white people don't want to see a black champion, is a bit of a racist statement.

No it isn't. A racist statement is one in which you put down another person, or deny them something, simply because of their race. I'm not putting anyone down, I'm just simply telling you why there haven't been black champions. You don't know what you're talking about.

That is like mentioning white people don't want to see a black golfer win the Ryder Cup.

If it's true, this statement would not be racist.

If you said that YOU don't want to see a black golfer win the Ryder Cup JUST because he's black, then that would be racist. But I'm not saying that I don't want to see a black champion, I'm saying the majority of the white fans don't.

It's not a racist statement.

What exactly are we talking about here because you did say:


By your words, its not just about people paying money.

By my words, it's TOTALLY about people paying money. EVERYTHING in wrestling is about whether or not people will pay money to watch something. If people aren't willing to pay money to watch a black champion, then they are not interested in a black champion. Catch up with the rest of us, this is not difficult to understand.

But ok, you keep bringing up money and being a big draw. Who pays their hard earned money to go see Shaemus or even Jack Swagger? Cmon man, being world champ is about being more than just a draw.

No, it's not. Who pays money to watch Jack Swagger? Not enough people apparently, since he's currently at midcard status. And Sheamus had some nice programs with Cena and Triple H, so obviously those programs were drawing.

I also think white fans would accept a black champion.

History disagrees.

LOL, was Cena not a "black culture wrestler" with his hip hop gimmick?

Did you not just say:

The majority of people that I've seen that had a problem with his hip hop gimmick were whites. Even going as far as to call him "wigger" while many young black fans looked up to Cena.

Which you say many white people resented?

You know, one of, if not the biggest draw in the WWE today. As for those fans hated Cena for his hip hop gimmick, they are nothing compared to those fans that love and pay to see him.

And what happened once Cena became a mainstay in the main-event? He dropped the hip-hop gimmick and went with a more "white" gimmick.

How many times are you going to prove my point for me?

I don't buy any WWE merchandise and only goto big WWE events in my city, But if I did buy merch or when I do goto shows, race of the wrestlers on the card is the last thing on my mind.

But it's not your mind we're talking about, we're talking about the minds of the vast WWE audience. Just do an eyball test, and let me know what you see.

I get what you're trying to say. I just think it is racist.

And I just think you have no concept of the definition of racism, if you think simply stating a fact is racist.

And I do have faith in white people that they would pay to see a well deserved black World Champion. Seriously, its 2010 not 1960.

If that were true, where are all the black World Champions? You cannot say they are being held down because the WWE is racist, when people of all different cultures and nationalities have been champion. You can't say it's because there aren't enough in the business, because there have been plenty to walk through the WWE's doors. You cannot say it's not because they haven't been pushed, because Lashley, Benjamin, Kofi, etc. all know that's false.

So what else is it? If it's not because the audience doesn't want a black champion, what is it?

 

[nellyismyname]

I have been reading through this thread and you all make some pretty valid points.But I disagree with the person who said that since the crowd is mostly white, they will not pay to see a black champion.Look at the NBA basketball the players are mostly black, but the crowd is majority white.So if white NBA fans will pay to watch blacks play basketball, why would white wrestling fans not pay to see a black world champion?

 

[rge2010]

If ya good enough, then you are good enough.

Rock was awesome, he got his chance at the top because of who he was, not because he had dark skin. Fact is, the black community dont really have alot to shout about in the Wrestling world. Some great sprinters, great NFL, great football players but great wrestlers??? Not really....

 

[The Crock]

No surprise. Not to sound racist, but not that many black people follow wrestling, no need for a black champion. There have been a few, and they were all REALLY good. They were also pretty rare. There aren't that many good black wrestlers out there. Right now we only have a few, and they're midcarders. Nobody there to take the torch, really. Eventually there will be a few more black champions, but not now. Another thing is that wrestling, like anything else, was affected by race. So it comes as no surprise that there were no black champs in the early days of wrestling.

 

[Trance Metaphor]

1. Does the low number of black World Champions surprise you? Or do you not see many black wrestlers in history deserving a world title?

The low number of black World Champions does surprise me. I think there were plenty of black wrestlers that could have been fine World Champions other than Ron Simmons and Booker T.

I'll only name two though.

2 Cold Scorpio for instance had great versatility and could have had a good run with the ECW World Championship at one point or another during his on-and-off time with ECW. He held the ECW Television title, which was worth something itself, but the World title would have given him a good boost of exposure.

Junkyard Dog was another wrestler of his time that could have been a World Champion. He was over and pretty good in the ring for his era. I guess the fact that he was a babyface in the WWE during a time when Hulk Hogan was the WWE Champion killed his chances, but he could have at least grabbed the NWA World Championship later on in his career.

2. Do you consider the ECW Championship during it's time in WWE as a legit World Championship?

I do believe the ECW Championship under the banner of the WWE was a World Championship UNTIL the 'World' status was taken off the Championship and it was no longer referred to as being the third World title in the WWE. So, by that admission, I'd say Bobby Lashley was a 2-Time World Champion, while Ezekiel Jackson wasn't a one-Time World Champion.

3. And finally, which black wrestlers do you think should be a world champion? That goes for past, present, and future.

Since a great slew of big-named black wrestlers are retired now, and the ones that do have name value that are currently wrestling are to my knowledge mid-carders, I don't think there are any that I'd say should be World Champion. Maybe somewhere down the line, Jay Lethal could have a run with the TNA World title...but I don't see it happening. MVP was probably the closest to getting a World title shot.

 

[Slyfox696]

I have been reading through this thread and you all make some pretty valid points.But I disagree with the person who said that since the crowd is mostly white, they will not pay to see a black champion.Look at the NBA basketball the players are mostly black, but the crowd is majority white.So if white NBA fans will pay to watch blacks play basketball, why would white wrestling fans not pay to see a black world champion?

A fair point, but fans go to support the team, and not the players. Look how fast Green Bay fans turned on Brett Favre. Look how fast Cleveland fans turns on LeBron James. These sporting fans are not attending games to support the black players, they are going to support the team they are a fan of.

Plus, you're talking about the difference between entertainment and sport.

 

[THE Madcap]

A fair point, but fans go to support the team, and not the players. Look how fast Green Bay fans turned on Brett Favre. Look how fast Cleveland fans turns on LeBron James. These sporting fans are not attending games to support the black players, they are going to support the team they are a fan of.

Plus, you're talking about the difference between entertainment and sport.

And in addition to that, I'd say support for your team in NBA/NFL etc is somewhat tribal and embedded in you. The difference between these sports and WWE is a champion is not pre-determined based on predominantly business reasons, champions are champions because they've earnt it.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I've been following this thread for a while but there is one thing that I do not quite understand? Why is the question of race coming up in this discussion? Why is the question of creating a champ for the back people coming up? And yes, how have there been very few black champs?

In fact to answer my last question I think that there have been more black champions in American Pro Wrestling than Japanese or Mexican champions. Does that mean that American wrestling bookers do not like the Mexican or the Japanese people?

The simple point is the question of race does not enter much into wrestling. The best black wrestlers go their due, like Booker T for example. Now Booker was pushed because he got over with the fans and not because of the colour of his skin. It's not like there has been a black wrestler who has been denied opportunities just because of the colour of his skin. Bad News Brown was getting popular but he should have been more patient. As popular as he was in the early 90's do you think that Hogan vs Bad News Brown would have been a better main event than Hogan vs Warrior? Ahmed Johnson was too injury prone while Bobby Lashley was not totally dedicated to wrestling. Shelton Benjamin just could not connect with the fans no matter what he did.

Which brings me to the question that whether the wrestling companies should create a black wrestling champion just to attract black wrestling fans. My answer is that they should do so only when the said wrestler is ready. No one, not even the black fans would enjoy seeing a black wrestler struggle under the weight and expectations of being a champ.

There are quite a few black wrestlers who I do believe can make good champions if some work is put into them. Guys like Kofi Kingston, Ezekiel Jackson and D'Angelo Dinero come to mind. But at present all these guys are upper midcarders at best and need to be groomed before they can attain the next level.

 

[Smartie]

I'm sorry but I really don't understand why we should consider the race element in wrestling.I'm a white guy and I can assure each and everyone of you that I'm not proud of any kind of wrestler who is white because of that.Same rule should be applied to black brothers and sisters.

If a wreslter can get over , like what Rock and Booker T did , they will have their glories and fans.There shouldn't be any kind of feeling that we need a black champion , we need entertaining champions , no matter what the race is.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

When discussing race, it's a very touchy subject. I think we need to discuss this without making it to personal. We all have a right to our opinions and we're not hear to call people names, we can agree to disagree.

Now to the subject, being discussed:

As a black male from Canada, I've been watching wrestling for a very long time. Some of my favourite performers were whit some were black. I think there have been a number of talented performers who were black that haven't be mentioned. Ernie Ladd, JYD, were huge draws in theri day and while they weren't world champs in WWE, ( I think Ladd was a champ somewhere) they were champs elsewhere.

So why so few black champs ? Realistically, not every one will be a world champ, but I've often questioned why some performers never got some sort of title run. Why couldn't JYD be the IC champ ? or Koko be a tag champ ? Barriers were in their way, backstage politics, I believe that there are black performers who the fans would support as heavyweight champ. Booker T and Bobby Lashley would have gotten the support but the fact is WWE was not willing to give them the support or the storyline that will help them enhance their characters. A champ needs the time to elevate himself in the eyes of the audience, to sell himself and a character development that actually works. The only black performer who got that was the Rock. The character development, the tv time, the writing and he had the ability to make the most of the chance he got. A number of performers (black, white or whatever) have some qualitites but not all the qualities to make them a star. Shelton Benjamin was decent in the ring but not on the mike, JYD had charisma but not good to watch in the ring, and so on. 2 Cold Scorpio was fun to watch in WCW, but couldn't get a break higher than tag champ in WCW and did nothing in WWE. Virgil (Dibiase's former bodyguard) was over but wasn't great in the ring or on the mike. Ron Simmons was really something to watch in WCW but was wasted in WWE and left to say DAMN every five seconds.
Kofi Kingston is popular but one wrong move in a match with ORton and he's on SD jobbing to Del Rio. Cryme Time were very popular but never got the tag titles ? Why ? So JeriShow or ShowMiz could have the belts when they didn't need them and only decimated the tag division.

Two performers might have been able to be big: Lashley and Booker. Booker got saddled with the King Booker angle to get the championship and was a heel when he would've excelled more as a face. Lashley got saddled with McMahon for the ECW strap and so on.

Most performers irregardless of race won't be at the top of the rostet. As far as black performers are concerned, it's the same in wrestling as it is in film. Promoters (like filmmakers) often overlook or doubt the drawing ability of black performers, and therefore favour using white performers. Filmmakers and wrestling promoters are facing a largely white audience and wish to cater to their wants. Can a white audience get behind a black champ ? I believe so, and many people do to, but enough promoters do. Until those promoters change their minds, black performers will continue to receive less creative storylines, match time, pushes as white performers. A number of times, when the fans were behind the performers ,(Cryme Time, Booker vs. Triple H, etc.) the WWE wouldn't pull the trigger and give them the titles. Also I haven't seen to many great matches involving black performers which would really help that performer, could it be the way they're being booked ? Add to that the politics behind the scenes and it will leave a lot of black performers on the outside looking in. I wish it didn't exist but the subconscious fears about having a black performer being your top guy still exists and many promoters won't risk their money on one unless that performer is guaranteeing money for them.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I disagree 100% and the comment where you said "white fans don't want to see a black champion" is an incredibly racist statement to make.

Now I know Sly already thoroughly handled you, but I have to add:

This is a common issue among people these days, and that's knowing the definition between racist, and racial. What Sly said was racial, not at all racist. He was simply stating his opinion on a racially driven subject and providing information to back it up. Now if he were to say, "White people don't want to see a black champion because all black people *insert stereotype or insult here*" That would have been racist. See the difference? I just despise it when people can't see the difference between these 2 words.

Now I'm not a black man, and I'm not a white man posing as a black man under the anonymity of the internet. I will say that if we go another 20 years without seeing a black champion, I'll be perfectly ok with it. On the flip side, if we go another 20 years with exclusively black champions, I'll be just as good. Race is as meaningful me as the size of the person. If they do their damn job and are deserving of the title, I don't give a shit what their ethnicity is.

As to whether or not I'm surprised at the lack of black champions throughout history, not at all. Honestly, there just wasn't a lot of star power from black stars, hell there still isn't for the most part. Are we suggesting that these companies jeopardize their business by placing a star at the forefront who isn't capable of being a draw simply for the color of their skin? That's a little bit ironic, no?

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

To throw my tupence in on the 'Sly is racist' theme that seems to have taken over this thread

WCW circa '99, the No Limit Soldiers lead by Master P where created as a BABYFACE faction and featured over good guys like Rey Jnr & Konnan that was opposed by the HEEL West Texas Rednecks lead by 'Mr Perfect' Curt Hennig. Asides from turning off by the thousand, how'd fans react to said storyline? They cheered for the W.A.S.P. 'Rap Is Crap!' Southern racist stereotypes - egg on faces anyone?

Like I've already alluded to, wrestlers get over on character, not race/ religion/ nationality (although these may be used as one of the toosl to move on said character). Booker T, the Rock and Taz (sorry SES, mi amigo, but Italian or no - he'll always be AfAm storylined to me) got over because of character. I cannot think of a single 'Christian' (wrestler not religion) controversy regarding a black wrestler. For example Shelton Benjamin was the JoMo of his time, incredibly over with his moveset but lacking that connectivity with the audience - we'd 'Ouu' & 'Ahh' when he was wrestling but hit the 'Snooze' button on our phone alarms when he picked up the microphone.

Now as a counterpoint - Chris Benoit, great wrestler but bland as hell. Why take a chance on him and not Shelton? This is where Sly's argument holds water, Chris came across as blue collar white to a predominantly blue collar white crowd - basically he had a subconscious heads up with his audience. Shelton? Middle/ upper class AfAm - anybody seeing the crafty Foxes point yet?

Are wrestling audiences racist? Hell no, if a CHARACTER is over sufficiently we'll cheer like crazy/ boo like hell. Are wrestling audiences biased? Sorry to say it but yes. If you have to take a chance on a character, you'll (more as likely) go with one you can relate to than one you've no connection with.

 

[NotoriousMEAT]

and Taz (sorry SES, mi amigo, but Italian or no - he'll always be AfAm storylined to me)

So if Santino got bumped on the head, then suddenly started walking around thinking he was black, only to eventually win the World Title.. would he count as a Black World Champion in your book?

I mean I get where your coming from, cuz I didn't know if Taz was black or not until I did the research. But just because they said he was from Brooklyn and I guess cuz he kicked major ass doesn't make him black. Unless i'm mistaken, he never referred to himself as black man, nor was he ever promoted as one.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

So if Santino got bumped on the head, then suddenly started walking around thinking he was black, only to eventually win the World Title.. would he count as a Black World Champion in your book?

I mean I get where your coming from, cuz I didn't know if Taz was black or not until I did the research. But just because they said he was from Brooklyn and I guess cuz he kicked major ass doesn't make him black. Unless i'm mistaken, he never referred to himself as black man, nor was he ever promoted as one.

There is a couple of other things as well, one of his monikers is the 'orange and black attack' and one of his catchphrases is 'Thug-Life born, Thug-Life bred, and when the time is right, I'll be Thug-Life dead'. Now I know I'm stereotyping here (but hey I've never seen a countryman with a shillelagh so ) but Brooklyn thug seems more black than Italian to me. The other thing is that actual background has rarely imposed on wrestling, our friend Santino had a stint as a russian shootfighter called Boris Alexiev and "The Russian Nightmare" Nikita Koloff was American born and bred. Roddy Piper might have Scottish roots but is Canadian by birth and has never lived in Glasgow.

He wasn't a black world champion but I would say that the majority of people perceived him to be (including my dumb Irish butt).

 

[THE Madcap]

So if Santino got bumped on the head, then suddenly started walking around thinking he was black, only to eventually win the World Title.. would he count as a Black World Champion in your book?

I mean I get where your coming from, cuz I didn't know if Taz was black or not until I did the research. But just because they said he was from Brooklyn and I guess cuz he kicked major ass doesn't make him black. Unless i'm mistaken, he never referred to himself as black man, nor was he ever promoted as one.

I always thought Taz was black, right until just now. I was kind of unsure what he was until when Stone Cold was feuding with Booker T and made a comment about Taz being a squashed, fat version of Booker T, or something to that effect anyway.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

JR even said it himself, he's seen a number of black performers being denied pushes in the past, which he believed to be race based. This is coming from a guy who was part of the behind the scenes staff. So, imo, to say it doesn't happen or hasn't happened is just absolutely untrue. There exists in wrestling the same type of mentality that exists in the corporate world, an old boys network with the same kind of racially based exclusionary type of thinking when it comes to pushing performers.

There have been plenty of chances that performers coud have been pushed and they messed it up or refused to take the chance, which leads to the same circle of performers at the top of the roster on Raw or SD, which bore the shit of me. They are money makers but they won't take the promotion to the next level like Austin and the Rock did. They (promoters) are probably missing out on finding the next big star, because of old ideas and/or old prejudices.

 

[Mz_da_Icon]

To throw my tupence in on the 'Sly is racist' theme that seems to have taken over this thread

WCW circa '99, the No Limit Soldiers lead by Master P where created as a BABYFACE faction and featured over good guys like Rey Jnr & Konnan that was opposed by the HEEL West Texas Rednecks lead by 'Mr Perfect' Curt Hennig. Asides from turning off by the thousand, how'd fans react to said storyline? They cheered for the W.A.S.P. 'Rap Is Crap!' Southern racist stereotypes - egg on faces anyone?

Like I've already alluded to, wrestlers get over on character, not race/ religion/ nationality (although these may be used as one of the toosl to move on said character). Booker T, the Rock and Taz (sorry SES, mi amigo, but Italian or no - he'll always be AfAm storylined to me) got over because of character. I cannot think of a single 'Christian' (wrestler not religion) controversy regarding a black wrestler. For example Shelton Benjamin was the JoMo of his time, incredibly over with his moveset but lacking that connectivity with the audience - we'd 'Ouu' & 'Ahh' when he was wrestling but hit the 'Snooze' button on our phone alarms when he picked up the microphone.

Now as a counterpoint - Chris Benoit, great wrestler but bland as hell. Why take a chance on him and not Shelton? This is where Sly's argument holds water, Chris came across as blue collar white to a predominantly blue collar white crowd - basically he had a subconscious heads up with his audience. Shelton? Middle/ upper class AfAm - anybody seeing the crafty Foxes point yet?

Are wrestling audiences racist? Hell no, if a CHARACTER is over sufficiently we'll cheer like crazy/ boo like hell. Are wrestling audiences biased? Sorry to say it but yes. If you have to take a chance on a character, you'll (more as likely) go with one you can relate to than one you've no connection with.

Fans connected with chris, Benoit was more talented than shelton benjamin....and this is comming from a Caribbean man with african ancestry. I liked shelton but besides benoit's superior technical in ring skills benoit had his tencity. "The rabid wolverine" although he wasnt that tall if you were facing benoit you knew you were in for a fight. Honestly although shelton is great to watch in the ring he didn't have the "attitude" to get over that is part his fault but...that is also part wwe creative team. Look at sheamus he's finally grown on me but it looks like they plan to job him because they're seeing what i saw in him...He's a brolic albino bag of blah... But mcmahon has a sweet spot for the irish, so the wwe had him take out triple H thats what got him over. " shelton pinned triple h" it was always made to seem like he was lucky.

 

[Mz_da_Icon]

I had a friend who was going to the wwe went for a couple of month to fcw and was going to offered a developmental contract. but a clause in the code of conduct was what stopped him from doing so. That for purpose of entertainment if there were any disparaging comments said in regard to race, religion or creed that in signing the contract that he would be agreeing to release the wwe of any legal consequence. So he didn't sign..

I read alot of your posts and you all make good points.

Success in professional wrestling depends on certain things.

Things that depend on the wrestler:

charisma

wrestling skills

ability to tell a story with your body


Things that depend on management:

the way a wrestler is marketed

lines written for a character

chances for tv time

types of feuds decided




Now I know some of you will say that some of the things I have stated that depend on management might also depend on the wrestler such as chances for tv time and etc. But certain wrestler are given more chances over others example sheamus he over a short time was put over simply because mcmahon is irish and being an irishman he wanted an irish champ, so they had him take out trips. while someone like Mark Henry whose been with the company for years was just given his first singles title the ecw title 2 or 3 years ago. And He was close at least two times in getting heavyweight gold with his program with taker and his few with batista. but then they squashed plans for him feuding with batista. Things like this happen more often than we think. With the right gimmick and lines anyone can have character....even that sheamus fella...blah


BTW...to whoever said it I agree cryme tyme should have had the tag belts they were over like was N.A.O Back in the attitude era. Problem is the wwe doesn't want to be seen as promoting "that" lifestyle, and yet they create that gimmick to sell some merchandise.

Also to whoever said john cena has dropped that rap gimmick to be more white thats part of it but the other part is its PG and being that he is trying to appeal to kids as a hero. Also he actually stopped when he released his cd, who knows he might release another i heard he mvp and r-truth were collaborating in the studio. And Yeah R-Truth comes to the ring dancing but his in ring skills have dwindled down since he was in tna and in tna he was a good heel and got a lot of heat from fans when he had his feud with scott hall. this was awhile ago but given the right push he'd be capable of it. Also keep in mind wrestlers are told what to say so if they dont get over its not entirely their fault....RVD in I think the first or second one night stand gave a speech kayfabe asking the fans if they remember when rvd had more than a 3 word vocabulary.


On a separate yet maybe related note Freddie prince jr is apart of the writing staff...i don't remember what movie he was ever in that i liked. maybe he's a better writer than actor?

Also about the Latino wrestlers although most were from mexico...Notice how besides savio vega which wasn't sooo dark there are no dark skinned latino wrestlers. I'm sure there are (outside of the wwe) but they don't fit the image of a latino that the wwe wants to put out there....

 

[mrwilliams061088]

Last night on raw was another perfect example of black superstars jobbing to everyone. Kofi Kingston is the freaking intercontinental champion and he has been jobbing to del rio for like 3 weeks.Don't get me wrong, I like del rio but there is no reason why kofi should be looking as weak as he does.There are what, 9 black superstars on the wwe roster and you're telling me none of them are good enough to be at least a main eventer if not a world champion? Every black superstar in the wwe is a jobber. You can make the argument of how r-truth was in the elimination chamber but he lost in what 5 seconds? And being an african american i am offended by r-truth's character anyway. The guy's a walking stereotype. Why does he always have to dance and rap? I hate the guy personally and i'm glad he's no world champ. And dont even get me started on JTG, another walking stereotype. David Otunga is college educated, in fact the guy graduated from harvard law school, so the guy can talk but all he does is play lacky to cm punk and job to everyone. When is the last time the guy even won a match? Between Otunga, Kingston and the other 7 black superstars there is no reason there shouldnt be at least one black main eventer the people will actually take seriously. I mean come on, who really thought r-truth was going to win the elimination chamber? You make the argument of how there is no black champions because of a lack of black fans, well there is a lack of black fans because every black superstar is crapped on constantly. CM punk's first title run was terrible yet everyone sang his praises, so kofi or otunga or heck even tarver for all i care cant get one title run? All the great black superstars have been run off by the wwe, elijah burke, shelton benjamin, bobby lashley, mvp. If wwe wants to expand their audience then give a black superstar a fighting chance and i garuntee the black audience will come, all they need is a superstar to get behind.

 

[Davi323]

Are you serious? Why in the hell would they even think about giving Otunga or Tarver a title run? They are both rookies! They haven't given Barrett, Wendy or Gabriel either the WWE or Heavyweight title either, have they? Your entire post is nothing but the same ol playing the race card bullshit. Ezekiel Jackson is most likely headed to a Wrestlemania match against multiple time world champ the Big Show. Kofi? I love the guy too, but Del Rio has to be made to look strong for his match against Edge. Its not to make Kofi look weak, its to make Del Rio look legit. Same reason that the Miz beat Daniel Bryan last week. You can't have one of the guys involved in the World/WWE title match at the biggest PPV of the year lose to a midcard champion a month before the event. I guess you also missed Mark Henry beating two time WWE Champ Sheamus LAST NIGHT. You whine and bitch about black superstars not getting wins over main eventers, and one did get a win over a main eventer less than 12 hours ago. EPIC FAIL.

 

[donutman]

If you said that YOU don't want to see a black golfer win the Ryder Cup JUST because he's black, then that would be racist. But I'm not saying that I don't want to see a black champion, I'm saying the majority of the white fans don't.

It's not a racist statement.

I guess you misunderstood me because i'm not saying YOU are racist. A racist statement is a devaluing generalization of a group of people based on their ethnic background. So why don't white people want to see a black champion? If your saying its because of their skin color, that is racist. If I didn't want to see a black golfer win the Ryder Cup because he was Black, that is racist. You are correct. So when a majority of white fans don't want to see a black champion.....because he is black, that is not racist? Just because its a majority (your opinion), doesn't mean its not racist.

Its racist because they don't want to see a black champ just because of his skin color (if that is what you are implying). How is it not? You're saying like its a fact (fact like the sky is blue) that white people don't want to see a black champion. Its really an opinion. I'm not calling you a racist.

No, it's not. Who pays money to watch Jack Swagger? Not enough people apparently, since he's currently at midcard status. And Sheamus had some nice programs with Cena and Triple H, so obviously those programs were drawing.

Thats my point about Swagger. They still gave him a test run. Black wrestlers can't get a test run just to see how it would do? As for Sheamus, the only reason his name is in the same sentence as "draw" is because Cena and Triple H are in that same sentence. Is it really that difficult to draw doing programs with Cena and Triple H, two of the biggest draws in WWE? What is Shaemus doing without them? Looking like a fool with that stupid king outfit, thats what. Cmon man. Let me guess, a black wrestler wouldn't be able to draw with them?

And what happened once Cena became a mainstay in the main-event? He dropped the hip-hop gimmick and went with a more "white" gimmick.

How many times are you going to prove my point for me?

He didn't drop the hip hop gimmick completely. It has more to do with PG than anything. Even changed the name of his moves. But he still has his rap intro, still dresses hip hop with his big shirt, cap and jean shorts, PGed his slang and even brought back his thuganomics rap against Rocky, which the crowd loved.

And I just think you have no concept of the definition of racism, if you think simply stating a fact is racist.

Trust me, I've dealt with racism on a level that some people here don't even know how to imagine. But what you said is not fact. Thats like saying white people, who are the majority of the voters, don't want to see a black president is a fact. Yet, when there was one black guy the people thought was qualified enough to run the country, he won the election. Like I said, it's more opinion than fact.

If that were true, where are all the black World Champions? You cannot say they are being held down because the WWE is racist, when people of all different cultures and nationalities have been champion. You can't say it's because there aren't enough in the business, because there have been plenty to walk through the WWE's doors. You cannot say it's not because they haven't been pushed, because Lashley, Benjamin, Kofi, etc. all know that's false.

So what else is it? If it's not because the audience doesn't want a black champion, what is it?

I think its a combination of a lot of things. You can't sit there and tell me that race has nothing at all to do with the lack of black world champions, or even minority world champs in general. It does play a part, more so in the early pro wrestling years than now. I also believe another problem is a lot of the owners, promoters, bookers, writers, ect. suffer from your same thinking of, that a black world champ would not draw with the white audience. They're afraid to think out of the box, scared to try something new. That type of mentality is what is currently hurting the pro wrestling/sports entertainment product as we speak.

Again, understand that I'm not labeling you as a racist. That is not what I meant. But your defensiveness on the subject is leading me to believe otherwise ..........

Just kidding LOL!

Now I know Sly already thoroughly handled you, but I have to add:

This is a common issue among people these days, and that's knowing the definition between racist, and racial. What Sly said was racial, not at all racist. He was simply stating his opinion on a racially driven subject and providing information to back it up. Now if he were to say, "White people don't want to see a black champion because all black people *insert stereotype or insult here*" That would have been racist. See the difference? I just despise it when people can't see the difference between these 2 words.

yea i was about as "handled" as a broken hammer. anyways, if hes saying they don't want to see black champion because they're black, that is racist. Yes, its racist to say you don't want to see somebody do something because of their skin color. if hes not saying that, then why don't white people want to see a black champ?

Race is as meaningful me as the size of the person. If they do their damn job and are deserving of the title, I don't give a shit what their ethnicity is.

See, this is how I am and I believe a lot of people are this way. You're buddy Sly doesn't think so.

WCW circa '99, the No Limit Soldiers lead by Master P where created as a BABYFACE faction and featured over good guys like Rey Jnr & Konnan that was opposed by the HEEL West Texas Rednecks lead by 'Mr Perfect' Curt Hennig. Asides from turning off by the thousand, how'd fans react to said storyline? They cheered for the W.A.S.P. 'Rap Is Crap!' Southern racist stereotypes - egg on faces anyone?

They didn't get over because hip hop was not yet accepted by white america like it is these days. I was very surprised they even did that whole Master P angle. I knew he wouldn't get over with that crowd. Pretty sure the majority of those fans didn't know who he was and thought he was just some dumb random rapper. It was horrible writing. I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make but what does it say about the crowd when they cheer for the southern racist stereotypes?

Like I've already alluded to, wrestlers get over on character, not race/ religion/ nationality (although these may be used as one of the toosl to move on said character). Booker T, the Rock and Taz (sorry SES, mi amigo, but Italian or no - he'll always be AfAm storylined to me)

I hope you're not grouping Taz in the Black/Minority wrestler group because if you are, Cena belongs there as well with is hip hop gimmick. Even if you are grouping him with them, you're helping prove my point.

Now as a counterpoint - Chris Benoit, great wrestler but bland as hell. Why take a chance on him and not Shelton? This is where Sly's argument holds water, Chris came across as blue collar white to a predominantly blue collar white crowd - basically he had a subconscious heads up with his audience. Shelton? Middle/ upper class AfAm - anybody seeing the crafty Foxes point yet?

So is it about the character or if the fan can relate to the skin color? Remember what you just said But about Taz?

There is a couple of other things as well, one of his monikers is the 'orange and black attack' and one of his catchphrases is 'Thug-Life born, Thug-Life bred, and when the time is right, I'll be Thug-Life dead'. Now I know I'm stereotyping here (but hey I've never seen a countryman with a shillelagh so ) but Brooklyn thug seems more black than Italian to me.

but you are stereotyping here. have you been to brooklyn? i've seen plenty of white thugs there.

He wasn't a black world champion but I would say that the majority of people perceived him to be (including my dumb Irish butt).

That help proves my point. The white crowd will accept a black guy or a guy that looks black as champion.

 

[mrwilliams061088]

He beat Sheamus but do you really think that is going to mean anything? He'll be right to jobbing on Monday. And wasn't Sheamus a rookie when he won the wwe title against Cena? Yea he was. Anyway you slice it there are no black main eventers, well i guess you can count r-tuth but he sux and no one takes that guy seriously. An i'm no expert but i'm pretty sure it's not whining if its the truth. Name the last black world champion.... Booker T in what 05, 06? Thats like 5 or 6 years ago. What black superstar has even come close to winnig a world title since then? So you can kill all that crap about me whining when i'm only stating the facts. And i can see your point about making del rio look strong but if you look at the spoilers for Friday night smackdown, once again Kofi is jobbing, this time to Jack Swagger. Why? WTF has swagger even done lately? Nothing, which again proves my point. A black guy is good enough to win the heisman trophy, be President of the United States but he's just not good enough to be a wwe world champion.