Wrestlezone Tournament Finals: Bret Hart vs. Edge

[Tenta]

Well that's all well and good but it's a fatally flawed argument when you look closer and compare the stats

Bret Hart - 5 time WWE champion for a total of 654 days
Edge - 4 time WWE champion for a total of 139 days

Now to me, that suggests Vince has a hell of a lot more faith in Bret than Edge. That's not even considering that Bret only had 4 years at the top in the WWE and he was champion for 2 of them.

Sigh... I promised myself I'd never meet spam for spam, and this reeks of utter spam. But there's not too vmuch I can say to this point either than.

A. Different Era. Belts are passed around very much so in this day and age. And that's because the level of main eventers is greater than Bret's period. Which brings us to the fact that...

B. Bret's reigns are padded by facing mid carders. Honestly, how much fame did wrestlers like Kamala, The Patriot, and Rick Martel achieve in WWE? And once he did come against a main event wrestler;

Yokozuna; lost to him.
Bob Backlund; Wasn't even a main event wrestler... And still lost to him.
HBK; Yep, that's a loss.
HBK; Again, we know what happened.

So saying that he held the belt longer, if you want to be honest, include the fact that he beat mid carders

 

[Big Sexy]

But when I really consider it, if I'm voting for my all time best wrestler... Well, I want a wrestler who got to his spot on purpose. I don't want a wrestler that got to the main event merely by circumstance. And that is the case with one Bret Hart.

Merely by circumstance? Complete and utter bullshit. Bret Hart was a main eventer in the WWE for over 5 years. If he got there merely by circumstance then he would never have been kept in the main event.

Vince chose Bret, simply because there was no one else, and he needed a wrestler that looke relatively clean. That was Bret Hart for him.

Yes Bret was only champion because he didn't have a great physique. Forgot about his talent and drawing ability that obviously means nothing. Please come with better arguments then this nonsensical bullshit you're pulling out.

And anytime that Vince didn't need Bret to be his figurehead for his Congressional Probe, he was pushed back down to the mid-card, working with the likes of Jerry Lawler, Fatu, Doink the Clown, and the 1-2-3 Kid. Riveting, really, when you think about that talent.

The only one of those guys Bret really feuded with was Jerry Lawler, and it was actually a very good feud. Much better then whatever Diesel was doing as heavyweight champion. You know John Cena just got finished doing this exact same type of thing with his little feud with Miz. See sometimes in wrestling your top stars have to go to the mid card and actually make those guys look good. Something that Bret Hart did very well.

Perfect example of this would be his run from late 1992-March 1993. Even at this run, the only wrestlers he went against were mid-carders.

That's not a very big time frame considering the fact that there were only 2 pay per views during that period.

Then, at Wrestlemania IX, Vince had chance to show he believed in Bret. All he had to do was have Bret go over Yokozuna. It wouldn't evn have had ti be clean, all Bret had to do was go over. Yet, at the end of the night, who did he wind up giving the belt to?

It went to Hulk Hogan for the simple fact that he is Hulk fucking Hogan. If that was Edge in the same position I guarantee the same thing would have happened. Hogan is the biggest draw ever, of course he's going to get the belt over him. But see this is Bret Hart vs Edge not Bret vs Hogan.
Hogan > Hart > Edge.

Even worse, once Hulk was gone in 1993, during Summerslam, Vince had a chance to show Bret he believed in him again. Hell, there was no Hulk to deak with it, so it'd be very simple to put him over Yoko. And who wound up getting the nod over Bret? And this was company suicide for Vince to do. Yet, he believed much more in Lex than he ever did Bret Hart.

Ahhhh yes. He believed in Luger much more then Bret. That's why he gave Lex all of those title reigns. Oh wait. Luger never won the heavyweight title. Remember Wrestlemania 10 when both Luger and Hart had a chance to get the title? Because I do. Bret walked away with the title and Luger went on to form a tag team with the British Bulldog.

No, while Vince never had faith in Bret, he certainly had all of the faith in the world for Edge.

Yep that's why Edge has had all of those lengthy title reigns. Oh wait, I almost forgot that Edge's title reigns last an average of under 2 months.

Even once Edge lost his belt, Vince knew he couldn't keep Vince too far away from winning the belt, in his kayfabe prime. Why is that? Because Edge simply sells. He sells tickets, and brings in money for Vince.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself Tenta. Bret Hart during his career was a much much bigger draw then Edge will ever be. In the U.S., internationally, it doesn't matter. Bret Hart made Vince more money then Edge.

McMahon isn't stupid; he knows that Edge is one of hbis best wrestlers of all time, and one of the most charismatic. That's why Vince made sure to keep Edge always close to his main event.

One of his best wrestlers of all time? Please tell me your joking. He's not even in the top 5 of guys that are currently under contract.

Also, Edge is the kind of opponent that gives Bret fits. Bret hates two kind of wrestlers; brawlers and aerial wrestlers. Men like HBK, The Undertaker, Diesel, Yokozuna... These were the men that gave Bret trouble.

You really can't be this stupid. Edge isn't like any of those guys you listed. How can you even remotely compare Edge to Taker, Diesel, and Yoko? HBK and Edge might have some similarities but even that is a bad comparison. Besides that Bret really didn't struggle too much with any of those guys except HBK. To my knowledge neither Diesel or Taker have pinned Bret or made him submit. Bret has pinned both. Bret is also one and one against Yoko with the only loss being because of Mr Fuji.

Besides, when one considers a tournament in the KOTR format, like we have right here; well, heel winners go on to great things, and win a majority of the times. Heels always capitalize on a winded face to go on to victory, and go on to great heights.

The only stat I need to know about KOTR type tournaments is that Bret has never lost in the KOTR. I don't care that the heel usually wins, whenever Bret was in the KOTR tournament that wasn't the case.

With all this mind, I have to vote Edge.

After all of that horrid reasoning you have to vote for Bret.

 

[Tastycles]

This is why I feel most people you criticize Edge have no business even running their mouth. Tastycles, nothing personal because you really are a good poster.. but to claim Edge hasn't ever won a Main Event without help, or cheating, is blasphemy.

When has he won a main event match without cheating? His PPV title match wins are as follows:

New Year's Revolution 2006: Cashed in MITB on knackered Cena
Summerslam 2006: Hits Cena with brass knuckles
Judgement Day 2007: Pins Batista clean
One Night Stand Cage Match: Clean win over Batista
Vengence: NoC : Loses by DQ, then wins via count out
Armageddon 2007: Edge beats Batista and Taker following interference from Ryder and Hawkins
Royal Rumble 2008: Beats Rey Mysterio after Vickie blocks 619 attempt
No Way Out 2008: Beats injured Rey Mysterio
One Night Stand 2008: Beats Taker in a TLC match with literally the most bullshit amount of interference ever
Night Of Champions 2008: More bullshit as Vickie makes Chavo referee after Edge punches the ref.
Survivor Series 2008: Comes in and wins after a huge clusterfuck of Hardy interference , and about ten minutes of Kozlov and HHH fighting alone.
Royal Rumble 2009: Wins thanks to Hardy interference
No Way Out 2009: Cheats to get into second elimination chamber by beating Kofi
Backlash 2009: Big Show throws Cena into a light
Judgement Day 2009: Matt Hardy hits Jeff, costing him the match.

So, he's had two clean win in main events, one by schoolboy pin, and one by beating injured Rey Mysterio. I stand corrected.

First and foremost, he's a Heel. So to moan and complain that hes cheated to win is somewhat bottom of the barrel on trying to find arguments for why he couldn't win.

No it isn't, even the biggest heels of all time have won major matches clean. Orton has won countless more matches clean than Edge, that's irrefutable. Edge cheats to win more than any heel in history.

Secondly, just because Vickie, or anyone else has interjected him into a match.. doesn't mean they help him win it.

How is making Chavo the ref not helping him win? How is stopping Undertaker creaming him not helping him win.

When Edge cashed in on Cena and the Undertaker, were they beaten down? Yes. But did anyone help him win from bell to bell? NO. Was it Edge's fault he cashed in the way it was meant to happen? Only Van Dam has ever taken the case and used it in a "I'm gonna cash this in on you" moment, and if I do recall.. it was Edge, who had to help Van Dam, in order for him to win.

No, but it means that those wins hold no merit in this competition. Bret Hart isn't beat down. As for helping after the cash in, do you honestly beleive anyone in the arena was under any illusion that Edge did it without the Elimination chamber and without Mark Henry?

Going back to Survivor Series.. Sure, Kozlov and Triple H destroyed each other and Edge was brought in half way through, fresh, but he didn't win because anyone helped him interfere. In fact, Jeff Hardy ended up showing up and hitting Edge, attacking him just the same. Yet Edge found a way to win.

What Edge found was HHH and Kozlov down for the count after Hardy twatted them with chairs. Amazing.

Going back to No Way Out.. Edge inserted himself into the Chamber match, and NO WAY helped him win against 5 other guys. He did it all on his own.

Well in kayfabe, it actually does help him quite a lot. Every time there is a mystery opponent, you always, and I mean always, hear the colour commontator say "it's hard because they haven't prepared for an opponent". If you'd prepared for Kofi and you got Edge, then it's actually an issue in kayfabe.

So don't give me that bullshit excuse of Edge can't win a Main Event, without outside interference. You and I both know its a lie.

I've shown that without any help whatsoever from anybody he has won three non gimmick main events, two against Batista and one against Mysterio. Mysterio was injured, and Batista actually beat him by DQ before he beat him by countout, so that's be a loss here. Essentially his only clean, no extenuating factors win was against Batista, who is as different from Bret Hart as you can get.

Actually, I'd rather take La Familia.

So me where the Bulldog, Jeff Jarrett, or Kevin Nash helped Bret Hart in multiple situations? They didn't. If you wanna factor in outside interference, then I'll go with the group that gets shit done right. Not the 50,000th spawn off version of a group that should've died 2 years prior.

British Bulldog was among those to attack Austin at In Your House 14, and teamed with him consistently throughout 1997. The fact that the nWo didn't deserve to be rebooted is irrelevant, those guys were still in a stable and still helping Bret win matches for the arse end of 1999.

Vengeance 2004. Raw 2007.

Ok, fair enough.

Summerslam 2006.

With brass knucks, but I'll let it past.

Smackdown 2007.

A MITB cash in is a gimmicked match. He never beat Taker when they had started the match at the same time.

But Edge, has done the same thing. If you're going to try talking shit.. make sure you talk it about something that can't be proven wrong.

I'm quite clearly not talking shit. He's neverbeat Undertaker in a standard one on one match. There are plenty of others I could dredge up too, if you really wanted. HHH, par exemple.

So wait a minute, you mean to tell me Bret Hart wasn't given the Heavyweight Championship from Ric Flair, just to drop it to the undefeated Super-Beast that was Yokozuna?

No, Yokozuna hadn't even debuted when he won that title. He also defended it on PPV twice.

You mean to tell me he wasn't given the Championship from Diesel, only to drop it at Wrestlemania to the guy hand-picked to lead the next Generation, in Shawn Michaels? And then again, at Survivor Series of 97?

No, that's completely bullshit. If they wanted Diesel to drop the title to Michaels, they'd have done it. Michaels had a history with Diesel, he had already fought him at WrestleMania, if they wanted Michaels to get the title, he'd have gotten it straight away.

Hart was the most over heel in the company for the lion's share of 1997, and feuded with Undertaker and The Patriot. Again, if they wanted Michaels to have the title, he'd have had it.

Hart's ONLY non-transitional reign, was when he defeated Yokozuna at Mania 10, then feuded with his Brother for the remainder of the year before dropping the title to someone, so it could be handed off to Diesel.

Really, only feuded with Owen did he? How about when he fought Diesel, on PPV? He feuded with more than just Owen andthen dropped the title to an actual transitional champion in Bob Backlund.

Just because Hart had longer reigns, doesn't mean they weren't transitional. Keep in mind the difference between this era, and that one. This era, you have a Pay per view every 3 weeks. That one, you have a Pay per view every 2-3 months.

I have already addressed this a million times. It doesn't matter how many defenses Hart had to make, because he held the title for longer than his peers. Your saying that he was a transitional champion for Yokozuna, but he held the title for almost 6 months. Hogan's reign, where Yoko'stitle ended up lasted two, so how is that transitional?

Hart's reigns are longer than the other championship reigns of the same era, so they cannot possibly be transitional, by definition. Edge's reigns are shorter than those of the same era. It doesn't matter that Edge's reigns are shorter in terms of days, because times have changed, like you say. Compare them to their peers, and you see Hart has longer reings than people in the WWF and WCW in that time period.

Edge has had shorter reigns than people in this frame. The net difference between them is, irrelevant, but the record between them and their peers is what you have to look at, and Hart's is far better.

What "one day reign" are you jabbering on about? And once again, regardless of whatever it is you're going on about - Bret Hart has been more of a transitional Champion, than an actual permanent Champion. He's had what, 7 total reigns as a Heavyweight Champion.. and only 1 of them truly meant anything where the Company felt he could be the leader.

When he held the WWF title for one day, funnily enough. How many of Edge's reigns have been proper ones? 1, the one after Armageddon. That's one out of nine. By my count, 6 of Hart's 7 reigns haven't been transitional.

Anyone claiming he was a leader in 1993 is talking out of their own ass. Hulk Hogan was still around during that time, and Yokozuna was the individual they were promoting more than anyone. Hart was a stepping stone in the situation.

I didn't say that, otr anything even close to that, but at least he's led the company at one point, something which Edge can never have claimed to have done.

I never said Edge hasn't turned into a transitional Champion. But I will argue the subtle differences between Hart and Edge, being Edge is a heel meant to put Faces over. Hart was a Face, meant to go over the Heels. Not constantly lose to them. (which he did)

Really? Which heels did he constantly lose to? He beat Yokozuna, and lost to Yokozuna once, he beat Flair, he beat Razor Ramon, he beat Shawn Michaels when he was a face and Shawn a heel, he beat Austin, he beat Owen, need I go on?

Edge's first reign was a test if nothing else, to see how people would react. They reacted greatly. As result, Edge received a much longer reign - filled with a single's victory over John Cena.

Hart's first reign was 6 months, he was good enough not to need a dummy run.

When Edge won the title from the Undertaker, he was meant to originally hold it until the follow year's Mania - but injuries forced Edge to vacate the title. Sure, you can hold that against him.. but notice for yourself, the INSTANT Edge was healthy and returned.. he regained the Championship, as if he never lost it to begin with.

But the original idea before that was for Edge to stay on Raw and feud with Randy Orton. Edge wasn't even meant to have MITB, you can thank another injury for that. So, I won't hold his injury or Mr. Kennedy's and the Undertaker's in any kind of regard.

All throughout Edge's career, he's won Championship after Championship and barely been seen without one around his waist. Hart, on the other hand, can't say the same thing.

Well, for his time he can actually. He was a triple crown winner in two companies, and as Shocky's stats showed has been a champion for a higher percentage of his career. That is pretty impressive when you think that the midcard titles changed practically once a year in the 1980s. Hart won every title bar the European, Cruiserweight and WCW TV titles. Edge didn't win the European, Cruiserweight, Hardcore, Light Heavyweight, or ECW titles.

What does the In Your House era have to do with anything? If Bret Hart was this great leader and drawing power that people (and Sly) keep rambling on about, wouldn't you think he'd be headlining more on these shows - instead of fighting in meaningless feuds, or not even appearing at all?

What are you talking about? I've never said he was a leader. My point was is that towards the end of Hart's career he was on PPV every month and he still had multiple reigns of 100 days.

Someone (I think it was Lee) ran a research test in showing when the last time Edge missed a Pay per view (not including from being injured) and he came up with something like some-odd 4 years? If not more.

Bret Hart didn't miss a WWE PPV through anything but injury and storyline injury, like Edge, from WreslteMania 2 until In Your House 2, almost ten years later. You can say "Well there were fewer PPVs!" There were, and they weren't brand specific, so much harder to get onto. He actually wrestled a dark match on that PPV, to see one where he wasn't involved at all, you have to go on much longer, to his 8 month hiatus. He never missed a single PPV with the company except for the Wrestling Classic while he was actively competing. So shove that up your Edge and smoke it.

So tell me this much.. if Bret Hart is more of a drawing power than Edge, why wasn't he used as much as Edge is now? Edge is so much of a drawing force, that they've put a Championship on him - that allows him to be on ALL THREE Brands.. whereas with Hart, the guy wasn't even used on all their Pay per views.. when he was suppose to be this big Main Event spectacle.

Hart was used on all their ppvs from 1985 onwards, he missed in your House 2, but wrestled a dark match. He was a colour commentator involved in a feud on In Your House 4, missed 8 months when he was on hiatus, And then missed In Your House 15 as he was "in a wheelchair". That's all storyline progression, so he's been on everyone.

Hart was a Face, and was meant to hold the Championship longer than a Heel.. that doesn't mean he wasn't transitional in building up nothing just to hand the title over.

Explain to me more than 1 feud with Owen Hart, that Bret had against when he was Champion in 1994. He had a meaningless Pay per view match with Diesel, at the 94 version of King of the Ring which never truly went anywhere. And he dropped the title to Bob Backlund, mainly because Owen was involved in getting Backlund back into the spotlight. Hart didn't feud with anyone else.

Yes he did, he feuded with Diesel. Wreslting was completely different then, and was centred around long feuds repeating at house shows. Raw was still in its infancy, and still an hour long. Nobody from that era had more than two or three feuds a year.

The same could be said for Edge, when he initially won the Championship the first two times. He feuded with Cena, and Cena only. He had a meaningless battle with Rob Van Dam that never went anywhere, and cupcake runs with Jeff Hardy.. but Cena was the only big time feud during that time.

Well, exactly.

The difference, once again, is that when Hart won the title each time their-after.. he feuded with one person only. Hart won from Diesel, faced the Undertaker in a match that never went anywhere. Rematched Diesel just because, and dropped the strap to Michaels.

How many of Edge's title reigns have had multiple feuding partners? Edge has had 9 reigns, I think only one has involved facing more than one person in singles defences on PPV.

After that, Hart won the title from Taker, had a half-way decent feud with The Patriot that truly amounted to nothing - then dropped the title to Michaels again.

So he's still feuding isn't he? He feuded with Patriot, and Michaels, and fought Taker in the UK as part of a feud.

Hart wins the W.C.W. strap in a Tournament, for personal reasons I won't get into.. feuds against NO ONE.. has a fucked up ending against Goldberg, joins the n.W.o. then reveals he has a career ending injury and leaves the sport forever.

The WCW reigns were obviously supposed to go somewhere, by his own admission, but he got injured.

Edge, on the flip side.. has won the title from Taker, then feuded with Batista over the course of several months, leading into a feud with Kane in which he gets injured. Drops the strap. Picks it directly back up upon returning, feuding with Taker leading into Mania and has a 2-month feud with Mysterio in between. (Look at that, Edge can hold 2 feuds at once - Hart can't even hold 1)

Taker didn't touch him at all from when Mysterio won the beat the clock, until after Taker won the chamber.

I can keep going on, but I'll stop for now. I think my point's been proven.

It absolutely hasn't, not even close.

4-3 is his Tournament record. This random 5-8, 5-3 crap you keep coming up with is bogus and I have no idea where or how you're getting it.

Wins: Middle East Cup, Mayhem Tourney, 91 & 93 KOTRs.

Losses: 2 Kuwaiti Cups, and the European Title Tourney.

I only said 5-3, and I missed that you'd put the middle east one in there, my bad.

Edge has also defeated The Rock & The Undertaker during the time in which he was just a mere Tag Team competitor.

Hart beat Savage when he was just a tag photo.

Ramon Main Evented against Hart at the Rumble, that was it. He hadn't Main Evented anything since then until the W.C.W Heavyweight title match against Sting, at Uncensored in 98. And even then, that match wasn't the Main Event.

He was a main eventer before though wasn't he. I'd put a feud with Savage in the main event. Teaming with Flair against Savage and Perfect is definitely main event material. Whatever hapened after is irrelevant. There are plenty of people who are in the main event and then drop out of it. Jericho has made a career of it.

Show me proof and records of this. I don't recall Bigelow being anything but a Super Heavyweight in this tournament - built up for a one time use to lose to Hart.

Show me Bigelow losing between his redebut and that match. He beat Bossman at the Rumble, his WrestleMania match was cancelled, these are the Raw results, showing he won all matches bar a count out defeat to Marty Jannetty, so he hadn't been pinned.

Raw Results

That was in the twilight of his career, on his way out the door. From 1993-1996, how often did Perfect wrestle? Oh.. thats right.. he didn't. He returned to W.C.W in 97, then stayed for a couple years and had a resurgence.. but certainly nothing that matters to the shape he was in during his 93 time-frame when he was on his way out.

Again, he may have gone to pot afterwards, but he was still on top when the match happened. Mr. Perfect had featured prominently on the previous three PPVs, which is, as I see it, the role of an upper midcarder.

Career nobodies that still seem to have won more Championships than Bigelow, or Perfect, it seems, while in their W.W.F/E. stint.

Are you seriously implying that Perry Saturn occupied a higher position in WWE than Mr. Perfect? Get serious.

You're right.. he was above them. Rhino was the last true E.C.W Heavyweight Champion. He more or less left E.C.W as the undefeated Heavyweight & Television Champion. Can any of Hart's opponent's lay claim to that? Uhm.. no.

He was ECW champion, big deal. You know why he was undefeated? Because he won the title on the last fucking show. He came into WWF and was a hardcore champion and part time table victim for Edge and Christian. Rhyno acheived nothing in WWE whatsoever, short of a short US title reign. Mr. Perfect was one of the top heels for about 3 years, to compare them is ridiculous. Bigelow hadn't been pinned, and Hart pinned him. Razor Ramon had been in the upper echelons until then, like I said, and was a far bigger deal as a midcarder in WWE than

Rhino has also become a multiple Heavyweight Champion, in two Major Companies. Bigelow held the E.C.W Heavyweight title, but nothing else. Perfect never held any Heavyweight Championship from a major Company, neither has Scott Hall.

Rhino's major reigns are an ECW title won on the company's last show and a 2 day reing in TNA, that he only got because Nash was sick. Scott Hall and Mr. Perfect were both two of the most over heels in the company when Hart beat them, and Bigelow was an undefeated collossus.

 

[Tenta]

Merely by circumstance? Complete and utter bullshit. Bret Hart was a main eventer in the WWE for over 5 years. If he got there merely by circumstance then he would never have been kept in the main event.

Big Sexy, I know you're better than this. Was he really kept in the main event the entire time? Or did he really have periods of mid card status, sandwiched by title reign in which he wrestler mid card wrestlers? Because I'm pretty sure it;s far more the latter than the former

Yes Bret was only champion because he didn't have a great physique. Forgot about his talent and drawing ability that obviously means nothing. Please come with better arguments then this nonsensical bullshit you're pulling out.

Yeah.... Because in 1992, all but the wrestling ability was non-existent, Could he wrestle? Sure. Could he draw? Well, the only main event he wrestled in was with the British Bulldog. In London. He drew in that match... Do to Davey Boy Smith. Either than that, he was merely a mid carder. No way did he draw.

The only one of those guys Bret really feuded with was Jerry Lawler, and it was actually a very good feud. Much better then whatever Diesel was doing as heavyweight champion. You know John Cena just got finished doing this exact same type of thing with his little feud with Miz. See sometimes in wrestling your top stars have to go to the mid card and actually make those guys look good. Something that Bret Hart did very well.

And he did it more often than not. You're forgetting a whole lot of feuds he went back into the mid card for.

Issac Yankem? Went back to the mid card.

Pierre Lafitte? Went to mid card.

Owen Hart? Went back to the mid card.

Hell, he even had a feud with Hakushi.... In which he went right back to the mid card. It wasn't just a once in a lifetime thing, Sexy. This a recurrent pattern for Bret.

That's not a very big time frame considering the fact that there were only 2 pay per views during that period.

It's all we have to govern by. Honestly, who cares?

It went to Hulk Hogan for the simple fact that he is Hulk fucking Hogan. If that was Edge in the same position I guarantee the same thing would have happened. Hogan is the biggest draw ever, of course he's going to get the belt over him. But see this is Bret Hart vs Edge not Bret vs Hogan.
Hogan > Hart > Edge.

He went to Hulk because Bret was not getting the job done. He wasn't drawing. Besides, Vince had a steroid probe on his hands. He should have only turned to Hulk if it were an emergency. And because was not drawing as champ, it became an emergency.

Ahhhh yes. He believed in Luger much more then Bret. That's why he gave Lex all of those title reigns. Oh wait. Luger never won the heavyweight title. Remember Wrestlemania 10 when both Luger and Hart had a chance to get the title? Because I do. Bret walked away with the title and Luger went on to form a tag team with the British Bulldog.

Lest we forget Big, that Lex was supposed to win the belt that night, got drunk, went to reporters, and was punished for it. There's those half facts you love so much

Yep that's why Edge has had all of those lengthy title reigns. Oh wait, I almost forgot that Edge's title reigns last an average of under 2 months.

Sigh... I've already explained this. Different era, with a main event composed of better, and more wrestlers. You using that argument only shows the weakness of the top of the card during Bret's peak.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself Tenta. Bret Hart during his career was a much much bigger draw then Edge will ever be. In the U.S., internationally, it doesn't matter. Bret Hart made Vince more money then Edge.

Internationally, perhaps. But the fact is, Vince has some sort of faith to keep giving Edge the belt, where as he'd give Bret the belt, and place him in the middle of the card. Why was that, Big?

One of his best wrestlers of all time? Please tell me your joking. He's not even in the top 5 of guys that are currently under contract.

Bulshit and you know it. At this point, perhaps only Jericho and Cena are better at what they do for a living than Edge. And that's highly debatable

You really can't be this stupid. Edge isn't like any of those guys you listed. How can you even remotely compare Edge to Taker, Diesel, and Yoko? HBK and Edge might have some similarities but even that is a bad comparison. Besides that Bret really didn't struggle too much with any of those guys except HBK. To my knowledge neither Diesel or Taker have pinned Bret or made him submit. Bret has pinned both. Bret is also one and one against Yoko with the only loss being because of Mr Fuji.

During Bret's title reign in 1996, both of these men had Bret beat, before the other interfered to cost them the match. Half fact, Big. And if you're giving me HBK, that's all I'll need, Big. Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Bret never did Shawn when both were at kayfabe height, now did he?

The only stat I need to know about KOTR type tournaments is that Bre has never lost in the KOTR. I don't care that the heel usually wins, whenever Bret was in the KOTR tournament that wasn't the case.

Sheer hypocrisy. You'll put out all of the manners in which Edge has lost, yet say you don't care about the structure of a kayfabe match. Pure cyclical nature of hypocrisy

After all of that horrid reasoning you have to vote for Bret.

Honestly, Big... Where have you been for so long? Who are you to try and call me out, with a semi'flaming post as you have. i've seen your posts in the earlier portions of this tournament. Needless to say, I wasn't impressed. I know you're far better than this, Big. What has honestly happened to you?

 

[Big Sexy]

Big Sexy, I know you're better than this. Was he really kept in the main event the entire time? Or did he really have periods of mid card status, sandwiched by title reign in which he wrestler mid card wrestlers? Because I'm pretty sure it;s far more the latter than the former

You realize there was only one heavyweight title back then. So unless you had that title it was hard to be in the main event. However, for a lot of his time during those 5 years Bret did have the title, and when he didn't he was almost always part of the next biggest feud on the card.

Yeah.... Because in 1992, all but the wrestling ability was non-existent, Could he wrestle? Sure. Could he draw? Well, the only main event he wrestled in was with the British Bulldog. In London. He drew in that match... Do to Davey Boy Smith. Either than that, he was merely a mid carder. No way did he draw.

It's hard to main event when guys like Hogan, Savage, Flair, and Warrior are in your way. And no Bret wasn't drawing when he was in the mid card because no mid carder draws, but the ability was there and once he went to the main event he did draw. Maybe not as well as guys like Hogan or Austin, but certainly more then Edge ever has.

And he did it more often than not. You're forgetting a whole lot of feuds he went back into the mid card for.

Issac Yankem? Went back to the mid card.

Pierre Lafitte? Went to mid card.

Owen Hart? Went back to the mid card.

Hell, he even had a feud with Hakushi.... In which he went right back to the mid card. It wasn't just a once in a lifetime thing, Sexy. This a recurrent pattern for Bret.

Hakushi and Lafitte were one match each. I would hardly call those feuds. Yankem was part of the Jerry Lawler feud and the Hart/Lawler feud was far better then anything Diesel was doing at the time with the belt. As far as Owen goes, that was more of Owen coming to the main event to feud with Bret then it was Bret going to the mid card.

He went to Hulk because Bret was not getting the job done. He wasn't drawing. Besides, Vince had a steroid probe on his hands. He should have only turned to Hulk if it were an emergency. And because was not drawing as champ, it became an emergency.

No it went to Hogan because he was the best option at the time business wise. There is absolutely no shame in being outdrawn by Hulk Hogan.

Lest we forget Big, that Lex was supposed to win the belt that night, got drunk, went to reporters, and was punished for it. There's those half facts you love so much

Are those your wikipedia facts? Unless I hear the story from Vince Mcmahon himself I have trouble believing it. The fact is Bret won the title. It was one of his 5 reigns as champion. Luger had 0 reigns.

Sigh... I've already explained this. Different era, with a main event composed of better, and more wrestlers. You using that argument only shows the weakness of the top of the card during Bret's peak.

I'm not arguing there are a lot more title changes in this era, but somehow Edge is the guy who time and time again has these short title reigns. Most of the other guys can at least claim to have a few semi lengthy reigns. Not even being able to hold the title for even 2 months on average doesn't show me much.

Internationally, perhaps. But the fact is, Vince has some sort of faith to keep giving Edge the belt, where as he'd give Bret the belt, and place him in the middle of the card. Why was that, Big?

Bret held the title because he was the best wrestler in the company and he could draw. Edge has short title reigns because he isn't the type of guy that can carry a company.

Bulshit and you know it. At this point, perhaps only Jericho and Cena are better at what they do for a living than Edge. And that's highly debatable

Cena, Jericho, Taker, Triple H, Orton. You saying Edge is one of the best stars ever is pure idiocy.

During Bret's title reign in 1996, both of these men had Bret beat, before the other interfered to cost them the match. Half fact, Big. And if you're giving me HBK, that's all I'll need, Big. Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Bret never did Shawn when both were at kayfabe height, now did he?

Anyone who is backing Edge has no room to talk about wins via interference. As far as HBK goes they really only had one match when both were at their peaks.

Sheer hypocrisy. You'll put out all of the manners in which Edge has lost, yet say you don't care about the structure of a kayfabe match. Pure cyclical nature of hypocrisy

I never said I didn't care about the structure, I'm just pointing out that Bret is the exception to the rule. He is 2-0 in the KOTR.

Honestly, Big... Where have you been for so long? Who are you to try and call me out, with a semi'flaming post as you have

I just like to swear. It adds emphasis to my posts. And I'm not calling you out personally just your ridiculous reasons for voting Edge over Hart.

i've seen your posts in the earlier portions of this tournament. Needless to say, I wasn't impressed. I know you're far better than this, Big. What has honestly happened to you?

That is just your opinion. I happen to think my posts have been very good. I don't need anyone's approval on my posting ability other then my own.

 

[Fizzy]

The only one of those guys Bret really feuded with was Jerry Lawler, and it was actually a very good feud. Much better then whatever Diesel was doing as heavyweight champion. You know John Cena just got finished doing this exact same type of thing with his little feud with Miz. See sometimes in wrestling your top stars have to go to the mid card and actually make those guys look good. Something that Bret Hart did very well.

But Jerry was already a fucking legend who everyone knew. Nothing like Cena with the Miz. Not trying to dampen your post because it was actually quite good, just see a difference there.

 

[Big Sexy]

But Jerry was already a fucking legend who everyone knew. Nothing like Cena with the Miz. Not trying to dampen your post because it was actually quite good, just see a difference there.

I wasn't comparing those two feuds, I just didn't make a good transition between thoughts. I was comparing Bret Hart having matches against mid carders like Hakushi and 1-2-3 Kid to the Cena/Miz feud. Just showing that when you're the top star in the company you sometimes need to go down and make mid card talent look good.

 

[Fizzy]

Oh see I was confused because the only person you talked about in that paragraph was Jerry. P.S. you kind of flame often. Try to keep out calling people stupid, and saying his arguments are bullshit. Kinda keep that to yourself. I voted Bret anyway though.

 

[pyrusane]

I want to reply to just a few parts of this post...

LOL! Took his ball and went home? He was due for time off. Jesus Christ Will.

And Will, you can't deny facts. Bret Hart left, the company went in a downward spiral, and did so hard. He came back, turned heel, made Steve Austin a star, and the company started its meteoric rise to the top.

Wow, just wow. You talk about how all Will does is post lies, then you spout off with this. If by "due for some time off" you mean refusing to sign his contract, entering into negotiations with WCW, and then ultimately agreeing eight months later to resign with WWF for a contract that he didn't fulfill, then yeah, ok.

And yeah, his match with Steve Austin did help cement SCSA as a main-event player. At which point Steve took the ball (apparently Bret brought it back with him) and ran with it. You can think Bret for Austin taking the first step, but by the time those steps led to the WWF finally overtaking WCW and winning the war, Bret was already out the door and working for the company that lost.

The difference between me and those other people is I have the balls to support who I'm voting for. And, while you're completely wrong, at least you have the balls to do so as well.

But, look at the number of responses in this thread supporting Hart and those supporting Edge. The people who are voting Edge are ashamed to justify their reasons, because they know they are sucky reasons, and don't want to justify it.

Hmm, well I guess that doesn't include me, as I was actually the first person in this thread to speak out on behalf of Edge, even before Will. And if it does include me, well, that's ok, because your opinion matters as much to me as mine does to you. I feel no need to justify myself to you or to anyone else, and yet I still have multiple posts on here showing why I believe Edge should win. I do this without insulting other posters, or relying on the use of name-calling, flame-baiting, or spouting the same rhetoric of "he should win cause he's the best, cause everyone says so" garbage. You know what, every time Kung Fu Naki comes to the ring, the announcers talk about how much of a challenge he is going to present to the guy who is about to squash him. Now, I am not comparing Bret Hart to Funaki, by any means, my point is just because someone says someone is the best ever, or even because a lot of people say it, doesn't mean everyone is bound by law to agree.

Umm, Will...they're not going to get banned before they post, and they probably won't post before they vote...so, pretty shitty point really.

Really?

If you vote for Edge, I will ban you from the forums.

That pretty much had to be directed at me, since at that point I was the only person in thread campaigning for Edge. And this was the day before voting was even open.

I've given you plenty of facts on Hart's drawing abilities, Hart's title reign length, Edge's lack of title reign length. You, on the other hand, have just lied repeatedly, which I have pointed out several instances of in this post.

And, actually, Hart didn't really work much of a technical style in the WWF. Of course, if you knew anything about wrestling, you'd know that.
I believe the Edge people are the ones who bring up title reigns. So, if we're going to talk title reigns, then let's talk title reigns.

Contradict yourself much?

I know what an opinion is...doesn't change the fact your opinion is wrong.

Why, because you say it is? Your inability to debate without being insulting to the people you are debating makes you a terrible debater. Your blind hatred and proclamations that "Kurt Angle Sucks" when you talk about a guy who brought an Olympic Gold Medal in Wrestling to the table shows me that your judgment is faulty. So why should I even give your assertion that your opinion matters more than anyone else's more than a passing glance? You are obviously not equipped to make that kind of observation.

The people posting for Bret Hart say he is clearly and without question the Greatest Wrestler Ever and yet there obviously is a question there, because with over 130 votes cast, he is leading by three votes.

I won't pretend to tell anyone else how to vote, because every person has to vote for the performer that they believe should win this match. Don't listen to any of the rhetoric from either side, do your own research and make your own decision.

Mine was easy

I VOTED EDGE

 

[Tenta]

You realize there was only one heavyweight title back then. So unless you had that title it was hard to be in the main event. However, for a lot of his time during those 5 years Bret did have the title, and when he didn't he was almost always part of the next biggest feud on the card..

And yet, even without a World Title, superstars broke through, and constantly made themselves main event wrestlers. Hulk did it all the time. I guess my point is this; If Bret was charasmatic enough, and if Vince believed in him enough, he would have pushed him like a Hogan or a Savage.

It's hard to main event when guys like Hogan, Savage, Flair, and Warrior are in your way. And no Bret wasn't drawing when he was in the mid card because no mid carder draws, but the ability was there and once he went to the main event he did draw. Maybe not as well as guys like Hogan or Austin, but certainly more then Edge ever has..

Ok, let's consider all of the men you just discussed. Flair was only around for a year. Savage and Hogan were aged superstars by this point, and he needed new superstars to create. Warrior... Well, he was Warrior. What more do you want for me to say about him? Anyway, can you show me irrefutable evidence that Bret sold more than Edge? Can you tell me that statistic? Are you going by Bret's book? That's a very reliable source...

Hakushi and Lafitte were one match each. I would hardly call those feuds. Yankem was part of the Jerry Lawler feud and the Hart/Lawler feud was far better then anything Diesel was doing at the time with the belt. As far as Owen goes, that was more of Owen coming to the main event to feud with Bret then it was Bret going to the mid card..

They had stories to them, and had an angle. They may not have been intelligent (I.E. Pierre stealing Bret's jacket) but they were surely feuds. Issac may have worked for Lawler, but he in himself was a feud. And since we're on Owen, I have a question for you; if that feud was about making Owen Hart a main eventer, why did he never stay at the main event? Why did, as soon as that feud was over, Vince saddled Owen with Yokozuna, and they were in the tag team ranks? The same reason I'll say for Bret; Vince never believed in Owen

No it went to Hogan because he was the best option at the time business wise. There is absolutely no shame in being outdrawn by Hulk Hogan..

Except you're forgetting:

A. Vince was under steroid allegations.

B. Hulk was the big name Congress targeted.

C. It even said in Bret's book that Vince wanted Hulk out.

D. Hulk's time had passed, and he was considered stale by the fans.

So does Hulk really sound like the "smart choice" now?

Are those your wikipedia facts? Unless I hear the story from Vince Mcmahon himself I have trouble believing it. The fact is Bret won the title. It was one of his 5 reigns as champion. Luger had 0 reigns..

It's an accepted rumor, yes a rumor, but I still hold some value to it. The storyline played out for Lex to win. He was guaranteed he'd never get a shot again. He won his only shot at the Rumble. And between Lex and Bret, Vince definitely hads all intentions of pushing Lex before Bret. Before, of course, Lexie blabbed.

I'm not arguing there are a lot more title changes in this era, but somehow Edge is the guy who time and time again has these short title reigns. Most of the other guys can at least claim to have a few semi lengthy reigns. Not even being able to hold the title for even 2 months on average doesn't show me much..

Except that seems to be the case with most champions. Even now, at this point, The Undertaker is averaging a month long title reign. Does that make him less of a wrestler? Right....

Bret held the title because he was the best wrestler in the company and he could draw. Edge has short title reigns because he isn't the type of guy that can carry a company..

Or, because he's an agrressive heel, and his character works far better as someone who manipulates himself to power. It's where he's at his best, and how we find him most entertaining. Unlike Bret, who really isn't that entertaining

Cena, Jericho, Taker, Triple H, Orton. You saying Edge is one of the best stars ever is pure idiocy..

So from 2004-2007, Edge's prime, you consider all these men better? Perhaps Trips, I get, and Cena. But the rest were neither there, ready, or involed in the main event. Edge carried the status of a heel, and played it better than anyone else. He was their most valuable heel, and his feud with Cena was the focal point of the WWE. He was their best heel. Unless of course, you can find me a better heel at this time.

Anyone who is backing Edge has no room to talk about wins via interference. As far as HBK goes they really only had one match when both were at their peaks..

And who won again? I'm sorry, but once Shawn reached that peak, who got the best pf the other?

I never said I didn't care about the structure, I'm just pointing out that Bret is the exception to the rule. He is 2-0 in the KOTR..

At a point when the KOTR was under heavy construction. The tournament kayfabe mold we have right now suits this match better for Edge.

I just like to swear. It adds emphasis to my posts. And I'm not calling you out personally just your ridiculous reasons for voting Edge over Hart..

And I say that anyone that needs to curse realizes they don't have a very powerful argument. Sexy, look at this;

Edge is the fucking best. He fucking rocks. Bret Hart is shit. Fuck off, fuckers. Fuck...

Was that a convincing argument? It had a lot of swearing, huh? No, all cursing does is show when someone has a weak argument, and needs something to fill the void. Hence your flaming.

That is just your opinion. I happen to think my posts have been very good. I don't need anyone's approval on my posting ability other then my own.

You don't, I agree. But it does behoove you to have a good audience. After all, they're watching this and voting by our debating skills, perhaps not consciously, but sub-consciously. And the fact is, under your watch, Edge is getting more votes.

So I would recommend you cement a better argument, if you want Bret to win.

 

[Tastycles]

Wow, just wow. You talk about how all Will does is post lies, then you spout off with this. If by "due for some time off" you mean refusing to sign his contract, entering into negotiations with WCW, and then ultimately agreeing eight months later to resign with WWF for a contract that he didn't fulfill, then yeah, ok.

Wrong, on quite a lot of levels. Hart kept his options open, but by his own and Bischoff's admission, he ever really wanted to sign for WCW at the time. He went away and did other things, having had 11 years without a break or serious injury. He came back, on a deal that was worth anually about 7 times less than what he was offered by WCW. Then Vince asked him to move elsewhere, that's hardly him not fulfilling it. Those are the facts.

And yeah, his match with Steve Austin did help cement SCSA as a main-event player. At which point Steve took the ball (apparently Bret brought it back with him) and ran with it. You can think Bret for Austin taking the first step, but by the time those steps led to the WWF finally overtaking WCW and winning the war, Bret was already out the door and working for the company that lost.

But it is still irrefutable that the WWF was at its worst when Hart was away, and instantly got a shot in the arm when he returned. Hart may not be the sole reason for the Attitude era's success, but without him, they'd have continued on a downward trajectory.

The people posting for Bret Hart say he is clearly and without question the Greatest Wrestler Ever and yet there obviously is a question there, because with over 130 votes cast, he is leading by three votes.

I don't think Hart is the greatest wrestler ever, I don't even like him, but there is absolutely no way that he's not as good as Edge. Of those that have voted Edge, there have been a minority to have explained why. The reason for this is basically that everyone who has voted for Edge has been torn apart by somebody, yet the Edge fans counter arguments have been tenuous at best.

 

[Big Sexy]

And yet, even without a World Title, superstars broke through, and constantly made themselves main event wrestlers. Hulk did it all the time. I guess my point is this; If Bret was charasmatic enough, and if Vince believed in him enough, he would have pushed him like a Hogan or a Savage.

Bret Hart is not as good as Hogan or Savage and I would never argue that he is, but in this match the only person he has to be better then is Edge. And he is definitely better then Edge.

Ok, let's consider all of the men you just discussed. Flair was only around for a year. Savage and Hogan were aged superstars by this point, and he needed new superstars to create. Warrior... Well, he was Warrior. What more do you want for me to say about him? Anyway, can you show me irrefutable evidence that Bret sold more than Edge? Can you tell me that statistic? Are you going by Bret's book? That's a very reliable source...

I'm sure if I wanted to look for it I could. But I could just as easily ask you the same question. Can you show me that Edge has drawn more then Bret?

They had stories to them, and had an angle. They may not have been intelligent (I.E. Pierre stealing Bret's jacket) but they were surely feuds

One match is not a feud. There is some kind of story behind almost every match at a pay per view otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to have the match. For something to be considered a feud there has to be multiple matches.

And since we're on Owen, I have a question for you; if that feud was about making Owen Hart a main eventer, why did he never stay at the main event? Why did, as soon as that feud was over, Vince saddled Owen with Yokozuna, and they were in the tag team ranks? The same reason I'll say for Bret; Vince never believed in Owen

I'm not going to argue that Owen was a main event talent because he wasn't. That just shows how good Bret is that he was able to take a mid card talent like Owen and have main event matches with him.

Except you're forgetting:

A. Vince was under steroid allegations.

B. Hulk was the big name Congress targeted.

C. It even said in Bret's book that Vince wanted Hulk out.

D. Hulk's time had passed, and he was considered stale by the fans.

So does Hulk really sound like the "smart choice" now?

Yes. Any choice that makes money is the right choice and Hulk Hogan has always made the company money.

It's an accepted rumor, yes a rumor, but I still hold some value to it. The storyline played out for Lex to win. He was guaranteed he'd never get a shot again. He won his only shot at the Rumble. And between Lex and Bret, Vince definitely hads all intentions of pushing Lex before Bret. Before, of course, Lexie blabbed.

If you're going to play that card then let's talk about some other "accepted rumors." Bret Hart was originally going to beat Hogan for the title at Summerslam 93 but Hogan decided to leave early so it never happened. If that is true then it messes up a lot of your arguments.

Except that seems to be the case with most champions. Even now, at this point, The Undertaker is averaging a month long title reign. Does that make him less of a wrestler? Right....

Taker has had long title reigns. Edge never has. Even before the recent increase in title changes, Edge wasn't having long reigns.

Or, because he's an agrressive heel, and his character works far better as someone who manipulates himself to power. It's where he's at his best, and how we find him most entertaining. Unlike Bret, who really isn't that entertaining

If Vince really thought Edge was the type of guy that could carry the company I guarantee you that Edge would have longer reigns as champion.

So from 2004-2007, Edge's prime, you consider all these men better? Perhaps Trips, I get, and Cena. But the rest were neither there, ready, or involed in the main event. Edge carried the status of a heel, and played it better than anyone else. He was their most valuable heel, and his feud with Cena was the focal point of the WWE. He was their best heel. Unless of course, you can find me a better heel at this time.

Your original statement was that Edge was one of the best wrestlers ever. Now you are changing it to a three year period from 2004-2007. Stand behind your statements and stop changing them so you can say you're right.

And who won again? I'm sorry, but once Shawn reached that peak, who got the best pf the other?

HBK won, but again what does this have to do with Edge? HBK is better then Edge just like Hart is.

At a point when the KOTR was under heavy construction. The tournament kayfabe mold we have right now suits this match better for Edge.

Again you can say what you want but the fact remains that Bret is 2-0 at the KOTR.

And I say that anyone that needs to curse realizes they don't have a very powerful argument.

Or maybe that's just how I talk. I'm a foul mouthed person, get over it.

Sexy, look at this;
Edge is the fucking best. He fucking rocks. Bret Hart is shit. Fuck off, fuckers. Fuck...

If I ever posted anything like that then you'd have an argument, but I haven't. I add a curse word or two here and there but it doesn't change my arguments.

You don't, I agree. But it does behoove you to have a good audience. After all, they're watching this and voting by our debating skills, perhaps not consciously, but sub-consciously. And the fact is, under your watch, Edge is getting more votes.

This thread has like 11 pages I highly doubt your horrible arguments over the last few hours are the reason Edge has gotten a couple votes recently.

 

[Tenta]

Bret Hart is not as good as Hogan or Savage and I would never argue that he is, but in this match the only person he has to be better then is Edge. And he is definitely better then Edge.

Ok, and here we definitely disagree. My point being, Vince had a chance to distinctly state he believes in Bret Hart. And all od his actions said otherwise

I'm sure if I wanted to look for it I could. But I could just as easily ask you the same question. Can you show me that Edge has drawn more then Bret?

Well, Edge has still had the highest rated segment of Raw at any point in the last seven years.

The 2006 Summerslam, which was highlighted by John Cena VS. Edge, drew 540,000. As compared to that last year's Summerslam, which drew 525,000 buys. His consequential rematch against John Cena drew a .77 buyrate, as opposed to a .56 the year before. But more to the point, it drew a 1.45 buyrate, as opposed to a 1.3 buyrate for the 1994 Summerslam in which Bret Hart was a world champion.

His Wrestlemania 24 match against The Undertaker drew a 2.98 Buyrate, as opposed to a 2.33 Buyrate for Wrestlemania 23. Also, as opposed to a 1.2 Buyrate for his Wrestlemania match against HBK.

Want my source?

http://meltdown.homeip.net/wwe/ppvbuyrates.php

Look, if you want more, I'll give more. But if I show you numbers, all you'll argue is that more TVs are available, that there is a greater population. And even then, Big, it's very simple; Bret rarely actually headlined those pay per views. Either Taker, Yoko, etc. Were the men headlining those pay per views when Bret was champion. So let me ask you, Big; were people actually buying to watch Bret Hart?

One match is not a feud. There is some kind of story behind almost every match at a pay per view otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to have the match. For something to be considered a feud there has to be multiple matches.

Even if that were the case, Big, it's still a relegation to the mid card, Big. Can you disagree with that? Were his matches with Pierre Lafitte really the main event? Or was it some match involving Diesel, or the Undertaker.

I'm not going to argue that Owen was a main event talent because he wasn't. That just shows how good Bret is that he was able to take a mid card talent like Owen and have main event matches with him.

That's laughable. Owen was far more than a mid card "talent". If anything, he had as much Talent as Bret.

So tell me what's so viable of an explanation:

A. A mid carder is pushed for those three months against the champion, though the matches are in the middle of the card, and then is forced back into tag teams.

Or.

B. A champion who is use to working the mid card is still working in the mid card, and is still not the main draws of the PPV he is suppose to be.

Yes. Any choice that makes money is the right choice and Hulk Hogan has always made the company money.

I love how you ignore just how stupid it would be to put the strap on Hulk. Let's make this more simple for you.

Vince was having issues with Congress regarding steroids.

Hulk was a main part of the evidence they hold on Vince

Pushing him gives the suggestion that Vince is in support of wrestlers on steroids, and fully supports his wrestlers taking steroids

So which do you think Vince would really be more worried of?

Getting a couple of buys?

Or

Going To Jail!

What part of that do you not get, Big?

If you're going to play that card then let's talk about some other "accepted rumors." Bret Hart was originally going to beat Hogan for the title at Summerslam 93 but Hogan decided to leave early so it never happened. If that is true then it messes up a lot of your arguments.

That'd be all well and great, if after Hulk left, Vince gave him the belt. So why did Lex take his spot after Hulk left. If Vince had felt as strongly as you do, wouldn't have Bret at least gone against Yoko? No, Vince didn't even believe in him enough to have him go over Yoko at Summerslam of 1993. He put Lexie there. In spite of bret Hart.

Taker has had long title reigns. Edge never has. Even before the recent increase in title changes, Edge wasn't having long reigns.

Sigh.... Let's look at this closer, shall we Big?

Taker's First Reign: lasted one week. Whoopie

Taker's Second Reign: Held it for about five months. Was never the main focal point of the WWE at this point. Wrestled a bunch of mid carders such as Farooq and WWE's version of Vader.

Kinda like Bret Hart, actually.

Taker's Third Reign: Lasted about two months. Edge has definitely held the belt for two months.

Taker's Fourth Reign: Lasted a bit more than a month. Before Edge won it from him, that is.

Taker's Fifth Reign: Lasted about a month before it was stripped of him. And then Edge beat him for it.

So yeah.... Your point that you need long reigns to be an all time great is pretty much asinine. Should've chosen someone better than Taker. His reigns are padded by a five month reign in which he really did nothing.

And he isn't a great wrestler?

If Vince really thought Edge was the type of guy that could carry the company I guarantee you that Edge would have longer reigns as champion.

Exacept that even men like Triple H, who we know how Vince feels, got the same sort of treatment at points. You acted like every reign Edge has was one month. Were a majority of them short reigns? Yes. But as I've shown, you don't have to have a lengthy title reign to an all time best. It's about what you do memorable in your reigns. And to me, the memorable moments in Bret's reign made him look

A. Inept (Wrestlemania IX)
B. Old (Wrestlemania XII)
C. Even worse, Foolish (Montreal)

Your original statement was that Edge was one of the best wrestlers ever. Now you are changing it to a three year period from 2004-2007. Stand behind your statements and stop changing them so you can say you're right.

We're going by kayfabe height, right?

Then I reserve the right to use his height of 2004-2007, in which he was the best. I still feels he's one of the best ever. But why not simply make it easier on myself, and pick points where he was at his best?

HBK won, but again what does this have to do with Edge? HBK is better then Edge just like Hart is.

Hey Big? Guess what Edge did that Bret could never do after Shawn reached his prime?

He beat, I don't care how. Edge beat a man Bret never could. Bret had a chance to beat Shawn in a similar manner at the 1997 Survivor Series. And I don'r care how Shawnm win; what matters is that Bret did not win.

Again you can say what you want but the fact remains that Bret is 2-0 at the KOTR..

And Edge is 1-0. The only one he ever competed.

I'll cut off your last point, because they are more attacks at me. But i'll match you in a similar manner.

I actually find it funny, Big, because you have yet to say one positive thing about Bret. You've said many negative things about Edge. You said a lot of negative things about me and my posting ability. But never once have you said anything on why you feel Bret should win. I saw what you've posted earlier... It didn't move me. And now I see that when you're in a debate you resort to flaming to get your point across. To the idiot who looks to see someone get "served" that's great. Tho those that see right through it, they see it as a weakness.

I picked Edge for four reasons:

1. He's my favorite of this era.
2. I am impressed with how far Will has taken him.
3. I love a spirited debate, and this was my best chance.
4. I feel Bret isn overrated
You provided no spirited debate. Instead, you have provided semi-flaming, and hyperbole the likes of which is laughable. You are a good poster, Big. But what you're relying on right now is clearly beneath you. The sooner you realize that, the better.

 

[Big Sexy]

Even if that were the case, Big, it's still a relegation to the mid card, Big. Can you disagree with that? Were his matches with Pierre Lafitte really the main event? Or was it some match involving Diesel, or the Undertaker.

A lot of these matches like the one against Lafitte took place at the In Your House pay per views, and those pay per views for the first couple years were nothing more then glorified RAWS. Some times the top stars didn't even appear on the shows because they weren't really a big deal.

So let's take a look at the 5 main ppvs during the time Bret was main eventing.

1992 Survivor Series- He successfully defended the WWE title against Shawn Michaels in the final and longest match of the night.

1993 Royal Rumble- Defeated Razor Ramon to retain the title in the last match before the Rumble.

Wrestlemania 9- Lost the title to Yokozuna in the main event

KOTR 1993- Defeated Razor Ramon, Mr Perfect, and Bam Bam Bigelow all in the same night. With the finals match being the main event

Summerslam 1993- His feud with Jerry Lawler had started and he had a match scheduled with him. Lawler claimed to be injured so Bret beat Doink in his place. Then Lawler was shown to be fine so Hart faced him and beat him, however he refused to release the sharpshooter so the decision was reversed.

Survivor Series 1993- The Hart family defeated HBK and the knights

Royal Rumble 1994- Bret and Owen lost to the Quebecers to continue the rift between Bret and Owen. Then Hart won the rumble along with Luger.

Wrestlemaina 10- Bret lost to Owen then later on beat Yoko for the title.

KOTR 1994- Diesel beat Bret by dq in a title match.

Summerslam 1994- Bret beat Owen in a steel cage to retain the title.

Survivor Series 1994- Bret lost the title to Bob Backlund

Royal Rumble 1995- Bret and Diesel fought to a draw over the title

Wrestlemania 11- Bret beat Bob Backlund in an I quit match to end their feud

KOTR 1995- Bret beat Jerry Lawler in a kiss my foot match

Summerslam 1995 Bret beat Issac Yankem

Survivor Series 1995- Bret beat Diesel to win the title

Royal Rumble 1996- Taker beat Bret by dq in a title match

Wrestlemania 12- HBK beat Bret for the title

Survivor Series 1996- Bret beat Steve Austin

Royal Rumble 1997- Bret competed in the rumble match

Wrestlemania 13- Bret beat Austin

Summerslam 1997- Bret beat Taker for the title

Survivor Series 1997- HBK over Hart for the title

So you see at all the pay per views Bret was either in the WWE title match or he was in a match that was continuing a high profiled feud he was in.

That's laughable. Owen was far more than a mid card "talent". If anything, he had as much Talent as Bret.

So tell me what's so viable of an explanation:

A. A mid carder is pushed for those three months against the champion, though the matches are in the middle of the card, and then is forced back into tag teams.

Or.

B. A champion who is use to working the mid card is still working in the mid card, and is still not the main draws of the PPV he is suppose to be.

Bret only had two matches with Owen on pay per view. The first was Wrestlemaina 10 which was the start of their feud and the reason it wasn't near the main event was because Bret was busy winning the title from Yokozuna in the main event. The second match at Summerslam 1994 was the co main event and it was the second to last match. You know the steel cage match for the title. By far the best match on the ppv.

I love how you ignore just how stupid it would be to put the strap on Hulk. Let's make this more simple for you.

Vince was having issues with Congress regarding steroids.

Hulk was a main part of the evidence they hold on Vince

Pushing him gives the suggestion that Vince is in support of wrestlers on steroids, and fully supports his wrestlers taking steroids

So which do you think Vince would really be more worried of?

Getting a couple of buys?

Or

Going To Jail!

What part of that do you not get, Big?

Yes because having Hulk Hogan be a champion in a fake wrestling promotion was going to put Vince in jail. The trial hadn't even started at this point and it really didn't matter who the champion was. It's not like making Bret the champion over Hogan was going to have congress saying "Oh wow that kind of skinny guy is there champion that means Vince must be innocent. Just forget the fact that there biggest star for the last 10 years looks like he was jacked up. The skinny guy is there champ now so Vince is off the hook." Give me a break with that crap.

That'd be all well and great, if after Hulk left, Vince gave him the belt. So why did Lex take his spot after Hulk left. If Vince had felt as strongly as you do, wouldn't have Bret at least gone against Yoko? No, Vince didn't even believe in him enough to have him go over Yoko at Summerslam of 1993. He put Lexie there. In spite of bret Hart.

Once again the WWE only had 5 pay per views at this point so repeating main events doesn't make much sense. The fans had already seen Bret vs Yokozuna recently so this way they got something new.

So yeah.... Your point that you need long reigns to be an all time great is pretty much asinine. Should've chosen someone better than Taker. His reigns are padded by a five month reign in which he really did nothing.

And he isn't a great wrestler?

Not the best example but he still had a longer reign then Edge ever did. And I never said having short reigns didn't make him a great wrestler. It just means the company doesn't trust he can carry them.

But as I've shown, you don't have to have a lengthy title reign to an all time best. It's about what you do memorable in your reigns. And to me, the memorable moments in Bret's reign made him look

A. Inept (Wrestlemania IX)
B. Old (Wrestlemania XII)
C. Even worse, Foolish (Montreal)

Old at Wrestlemania 12? You mean when he went 60 minutes in an iron man match. How about Wrestlemania 10 when he overcame the odds and beat 500 pound Yokozuna. When every wrestler from the back came out to congratulate him. How about Summerslam 1994 when he successfully defended his title against Owen Hart in a 5 star steel cage match. How about Survivor Series 1995 when he ended Diesels almost year long title reign in a no DQ match. Did he look old, inept, or foolish in those matches?

Then I reserve the right to use his height of 2004-2007, in which he was the best. I still feels he's one of the best ever. But why not simply make it easier on myself, and pick points where he was at his best?

I don't mind you making it easier on yourself but don't get all pissy about me responding to your original statement and saying it's completely wrong. Which it is.

Hey Big? Guess what Edge did that Bret could never do after Shawn reached his prime?

He beat, I don't care how. Edge beat a man Bret never could. Bret had a chance to beat Shawn in a similar manner at the 1997 Survivor Series. And I don'r care how Shawnm win; what matters is that Bret did not win.

I'm glad Edge can beat a 40 + year old HBK with the help of a briefcase. That proves nothing to me.

I actually find it funny, Big, because you have yet to say one positive thing about Bret. You've said many negative things about Edge. You said a lot of negative things about me and my posting ability. But never once have you said anything on why you feel Bret should win. I saw what you've posted earlier... It didn't move me. And now I see that when you're in a debate you resort to flaming to get your point across. To the idiot who looks to see someone get "served" that's great. Tho those that see right through it, they see it as a weakness.

I already posted many positive things earlier, but if you'd like them repeated I will. Bret is the greatest technical wrestler of all time. He could have 5 star matches with guys that don't deserve to call themselves professional wrestlers. Bret has put on some of the greatest matches of all time. He had the nearly impossible job of transitioning the WWE from the Hogan era, something he did a very good job of. His promos as both a face and heel were always amazing. Bret is an icon and a legend.

1. He's my favorite of this era.
2. I am impressed with how far Will has taken him.
3. I love a spirited debate, and this was my best chance.
4. I feel Bret isn overrated

So because you are a big Edge fan and you like to debate people, you believe that Edge would beat Bret Hart in a match. That is just fantastic reasoning.

You provided no spirited debate. Instead, you have provided semi-flaming, and hyperbole the likes of which is laughable. You are a good poster, Big. But what you're relying on right now is clearly beneath you. The sooner you realize that, the better.

Can you please stop bitching about the fact that I use a few swear words in my posts. I have seen many other established posters do the exact same thing so just get over it.

 

[Tenta]

A lot of these matches like the one against Lafitte took place at the In Your House pay per views, and those pay per views for the first couple years were nothing more then glorified RAWS. Some times the top stars didn't even appear on the shows because they weren't really a big deal.

So let's take a look at the 5 main ppvs during the time Bret was main eventing.

1992 Survivor Series- He successfully defended the WWE title against Shawn Michaels in the final and longest match of the night.

Yep, a mid carder if I ever saw, at this point

1993 Royal Rumble- Defeated Razor Ramon to retain the title in the last match before the Rumble.

Mid Carder

Wrestlemania 9- Lost the title to Yokozuna in the main event

Yep, his first real match against a strong main eventer, and he loses

KOTR 1993- Defeated Razor Ramon, Mr Perfect, and Bam Bam Bigelow all in the same night. With the finals match being the main event

All mid carders at this point. And the reason it's the ME is because of the gimmick of the match

Summerslam 1993- His feud with Jerry Lawler had started and he had a match scheduled with him. Lawler claimed to be injured so Bret beat Doink in his place. Then Lawler was shown to be fine so Hart faced him and beat him, however he refused to release the sharpshooter so the decision was reversed.

Mhmm..... Mid card and mid card. Check

Survivor Series 1993- The Hart family defeated HBK and the knights

Mid Card

Royal Rumble 1994- Bret and Owen lost to the Quebecers to continue the rift between Bret and Owen. Then Hart won the rumble along with Luger.

Mid card match topped with tying a Rumble. Who the fuck ties a Rumble?

Wrestlemaina 10- Bret lost to Owen then later on beat Yoko for the title.

Mhmm.... Lost to a mid carder before beating Yokozuna.... Because Yoko fell down.

KOTR 1994- Diesel beat Bret by dq in a title match.

Diesel was pretty much a mid carder at this point, but even then he loses

Summerslam 1994- Bret beat Owen in a steel cage to retain the title.

While The Undertaker is in the main event...

Survivor Series 1994- Bret lost the title to Bob Backlund

Mhmm..... Mid Carder

Royal Rumble 1995- Bret and Diesel fought to a draw over the title

This one I'll give you. This was great.

Wrestlemania 11- Bret beat Bob Backlund in an I quit match to end their feud

Mid Carder

KOTR 1995- Bret beat Jerry Lawler in a kiss my foot match

Mid Card

Summerslam 1995 Bret beat Issac Yankem

Are you looking at the names you're posting?

Survivor Series 1995- Bret beat Diesel to win the title

Great moment, I'll grant.

Royal Rumble 1996- Taker beat Bret by dq in a title match

Taker had Bret beat before Diesel interrupted

Survivor Series 1996- Bret beat Steve Austin

Who was nowhere near the star he'd become

Royal Rumble 1997- Bret competed in the rumble match

And lost

Wrestlemania 13- Bret beat Austin

Came out as the worse man. Did he beat him? Sure, I'll grant that.

Summerslam 1997- Bret beat Taker for the title

Yeah, because Shawn hit Taker with a chair

Survivor Series 1997- HBK over Hart for the title

So you see at all the pay per views Bret was either in the WWE title match or he was in a match that was continuing a high profiled feud he was in

And most of those matches were wrestled against..... wait for it....

Mid Card Competition!

Bret only had two matches with Owen on pay per view. The first was Wrestlemaina 10 which was the start of their feud and the reason it wasn't near the main event was because Bret was busy winning the title from Yokozuna in the main event. The second match at Summerslam 1994 was the co main event and it was the second to last match. You know the steel cage match for the title. By far the best match on the ppv..

I never said it wasn't a great match.... But was it the main event, Big?

No, that distinction went to The Undertaker. That is what The WWE advertised.

Yes because having Hulk Hogan be a champion in a fake wrestling promotion was going to put Vince in jail. The trial hadn't even started at this point and it really didn't matter who the champion was. It's not like making Bret the champion over Hogan was going to have congress saying "Oh wow that kind of skinny guy is there champion that means Vince must be innocent. Just forget the fact that there biggest star for the last 10 years looks like he was jacked up. The skinny guy is there champ now so Vince is off the hook." Give me a break with that crap..

Give you a break? Ok....

Then answer this.... Isn't it fair to say thaty fans were getting sick of Hulkamania? It was pretty evident? So why would Vince throw something out there that even he didn't like, in spite of Bret? Because he knew Bret was not getting the job done.

Oh, and yes, there wasn't actual court case yet.... It's called an investigation, Big.

Once again the WWE only had 5 pay per views at this point so repeating main events doesn't make much sense. The fans had already seen Bret vs Yokozuna recently so this way they got something new. .

I don't buy that one bit. I really do not. First of all, you're backtracking, to some extent. First you said the rumor that was going around, which Vince has never confirmed. And now you're saying people would get bored of the same match, and that's why Bret wouldn't get the shot? I highly doubt it.

Not the best example but he still had a longer reign then Edge ever did. And I never said having short reigns didn't make him a great wrestler. It just means the company doesn't trust he can carry them..

No, if they didn't trust him, they'd keep him away from the belt, in mid card matches. Kind of what they did with Bret Hart.

Old at Wrestlemania 12? You mean when he went 60 minutes in an iron man match.

Me thinks you never saw the promos leading up to this match. Even Bret concurs that Vince made him look lika an old man, especially in regards to getting stretched by his father. Watch the Hitman DVD.

How about Wrestlemania 10 when he overcame the odds and beat 500 pound Yokozuna.

By avoiding when Yokozuna fell on him? please....

When every wrestler from the back came out to congratulate him.

Well yeah, because Vince told them to.

How about Summerslam 1994 when he successfully defended his title against Owen Hart in a 5 star steel cage match. How about Survivor Series 1995 when he ended Diesels almost year long title reign in a no DQ match. Did he look old, inept, or foolish in those matches?

And yet I remember these moments far less than Montreal and Wrestlemania XII. And I think if you talk to any fan, they'll concur. Unless they are Bret marks.

I don't mind you making it easier on yourself but don't get all pissy about me responding to your original statement and saying it's completely wrong. Which it is.

I didn't get pissy. Just pointing out that I'm free to use a kayfabe strong version of Edge. And you really don't think he was one of the best workers from that period?

I'm glad Edge can beat a 40 + year old HBK with the help of a briefcase. That proves nothing to me.

Really? It proves he can beat a man Bret never could....

I already posted many positive things earlier, but if you'd like them repeated I will. Bret is the greatest technical wrestler of all time. He could have 5 star matches with guys that don't deserve to call themselves professional wrestlers. Bret has put on some of the greatest matches of all time. He had the nearly impossible job of transitioning the WWE from the Hogan era, something he did a very good job of. His promos as both a face and heel were always amazing. Bret is an icon and a legend.

..... Amazing? Did you really say amazing?

[youtube]HVbSgyw2Mx8[/youtube]

Because homophobia makes a terrific promo....

[youtube]jZe6LvqQaVk[/youtube]

Because how dare we doubt El Dandy?

So because you are a big Edge fan and you like to debate people, you believe that Edge would beat Bret Hart in a match. That is just fantastic reasoning.

Isn't that why we're out here? Because we like wrestlers more than others? I like edge. I feel he goes. What's the problem

Can you please stop bitching about the fact that I use a few swear words in my posts. I have seen many other established posters do the exact same thing so just get over it.

I'm bitching about how you treat opinions different from yours. I never got an attitude until you called my posts "atrocious". I put as much time into these posts as anything. And the use of slander just doesn't cut it for me. Sorry.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Wow. As I post this, Hart is winning by one single solitary vote.

I'm still with Hart on this, but you have to admit, Will gave this a hell of a run either way.

 

[Big Sexy]

And most of those matches were wrestled against..... wait for it....

Mid Card Competition!

According to you the only Main Eventers in the WWE at the time were Yokozuna, Diesel, Taker, and starting around 1995 HBK.

It's kind of hard to face main event talent every pay per view when there is only 2 or 3 guys that you could face. But when he did go against those main event guys he won more then he lost.

I never said it wasn't a great match.... But was it the main event, Big?

No, that distinction went to The Undertaker. That is what The WWE advertised.

No but it certainly wasn't in the middle of the card like you said earlier. You act like Edge main events every pay per view. You know just because Edge is in title matches a lot doesn't mean it's the main event either.

Then answer this.... Isn't it fair to say thaty fans were getting sick of Hulkamania? It was pretty evident? So why would Vince throw something out there that even he didn't like, in spite of Bret? Because he knew Bret was not getting the job done.

I own Wrestlemaina 9 and when Hogan wins the title he gets by far the biggest pop of the night, so no they couldn't have been too sick of Hulkamania.

And now you're saying people would get bored of the same match, and that's why Bret wouldn't get the shot? I highly doubt it.

Yoko wasn't exactly the best guy to work with. Every match he has with a guy is going to go the same way so you need to change who he works with so people don't see the same shit.

And yet I remember these moments far less than Montreal and Wrestlemania XII. And I think if you talk to any fan, they'll concur. Unless they are Bret marks.

Montreal isn't remembered for the match it's remembered for the ending and aftermath. Mania 12 was a tremendous match. Yeah he lost but he still looked very good.

Really? It proves he can beat a man Bret never could....

Ok. Well Bret beat HBK at Survivor Series 92. And don't say "Michaels wasn't in his prime" because he wasn't when Edge beat him either, and Hart beat HBK clean.

..... Amazing? Did you really say amazing?

Not every promo is a winner, but for the most part he was great on the mic. Definitely as good and probably better then Edge.

Isn't that why we're out here? Because we like wrestlers more than others? I like edge. I feel he goes. What's the problem

Yes and I feel you are wrong and your reasoning isn't very good.

 

[D-Man]

Screw all of this garbage... I'm sick of reading the book reports and term papers on what makes one wrestler better than the other. There is a Hall of Fame legend facing a "possible" future Hall of Famer. One has already reached the pinnacle, paid his dues, and convinced me that he is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. The other is still in the process of proving it. Maybe down the road Edge will surpass Bret in terms of legendary status and proving his worth. But, for right now, I don't think Edge is quite there yet. Most likely, he'll be there someday. But we cannot vote on our predictability of a superstar's future... we need to vote on what we see in front of us right now.

Edge has not surpassed Bret Hart yet, so my vote is for Bret. Do the right thing, people... vote for a legend - BRET HART. (And please, no one quote this passage and insert some stupid entry that includes Edge in my previous statement.)

 

[Emmet]

Is this a joke? Edge having so many votes? Edge shouldn't even have ten votes, nevermind 73 (as I write this). He isnt in the same class as Bret Hart, this is Bret Hart we're talking about, the only handful of wrestlers that have a right to claim themselves one of the greatest ever. Edge isn't even the best wrestler in the company at the minute, never has been and never will be. This shouldnt even be a contest jesus christ.

I like Edge, hes a solid wrestler, but he is in no shape,form or fashion in Hart's league. I cant understand why this many people have voted for him. If this was Owen Hart vs Edge I could see why this was a tight contest, but Bret? Not a hope. Too many youngsters who haven't watched a Bret match voting for Edge I think.

In an actual match this would be a duck walk for Bret. He can brawl, out wrestle, and do everything else better than Edge. Edge would tap in about 3 seconds once Bret got the sharpshooter on.

I vote Bret Hart. By a absolute country mile.

 

[Slyfox696]

Wow, just wow. You talk about how all Will does is post lies, then you spout off with this. If by "due for some time off" you mean refusing to sign his contract

Taken from pages 375 and 376 in Bret Hart's book...

I told Vince that after Wrestlemania 12 I'd be taking six months off to do a full season of Lonesome Dove. I felt I was due to give my face a rest in North America after twelve straight years, but Vince said he really needed me to work the foreign tours. I told him no problem. Working the foreign tours would keep me from getting too much ring rust, and besides, I liked seeing the world.

No, when I said he was "due for time off", I really meant that he was due for time off.

entering into negotiations with WCW

Page 382

On account of Diesel and Razor's defection to WCW, every wrestler was being leveraged to sign a new long-term contract. There was guaranteed money, which had never been offered in the WWF before, but the contracts were one-sided, with little protection for the talent. I was glad I was leaving for a while. My contract would expire while I was off, leaving me in a great bargaining position if I wanted to play the WCW card. I didn't ever want to end up there, but if I could show Vince my loyalty by NOT going, I thought I could ride out my career in the WWF in grand style

and then ultimately agreeing eight months later to resign with WWF for a contract that he didn't fulfill

From page 440

Two days later, on September 22 at Raw in Madison Square Garden, I was summoned to Vince's office for a private chat. He rocked me with the news that he wasn't just thinking of breaching the terms of my contract, but was actually going to do it. In the weeks ahead, he wasn't going to pay me my full salary because of problems he attributed to Ted Turner.

So....how was it Hart's fault that he didn't fulfill the contract, when Vince was the one who breached the contract?

You probably should do a little more research on wrestling if you want to come at me.

And yeah, his match with Steve Austin did help cement SCSA as a main-event player. At which point Steve took the ball (apparently Bret brought it back with him) and ran with it. You can think Bret for Austin taking the first step, but by the time those steps led to the WWF finally overtaking WCW and winning the war, Bret was already out the door and working for the company that lost.

Who gives a fuck? Without Bret Hart, who knows if Austin would have ever become what he was?

Bret made him a star. We know that for a fact. Who has Edge made a star?

Really?

Yup.

That pretty much had to be directed at me, since at that point I was the only person in thread campaigning for Edge. And this was the day before voting was even open.

Try actually reading the entire post.

Contradict yourself much?

Umm..what?

How did I contradict myself? If I'm not mistaken, YOU were the first person to bring titles and awards to this argument.

You're not very good at this debating thing, are you?

Why, because you say it is?

No, because it's true. Edge is the inferior worker, the inferior character, the inferior draw, and has never been as important to the WWE, as Hart was to the WWF.

And those are all facts.

Your inability to debate without being insulting to the people you are debating makes you a terrible debater.

If you only knew what the hell you were talking about...don't worry, I'll share with you later.

Your blind hatred and proclamations that "Kurt Angle Sucks" when you talk about a guy who brought an Olympic Gold Medal in Wrestling to the table shows me that your judgment is faulty.

LOL, what?

Since when did amateur wrestling have anything at all to do with professional wrestling? Good fucking Lord, you must be in the category of the "clueless" wrestling fan.

The people posting for Bret Hart say he is clearly and without question the Greatest Wrestler Ever and yet there obviously is a question there, because with over 130 votes cast, he is leading by three votes.

Like I said, because people are either clueless about wrestling or are Hart haters.

Any objective person knows that Hart is better, and the facts are right there before you. Of course, you would have actually had to watch wrestling before 2005 to appreciate it...which I think is where most people on here seem to struggle.

I VOTED HART

So did I. Glad we agree.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Sly, you spout off the head with all this crap from a self-titled Book, written by Bret Hart, how on earth is that suppose to be worth anything in this match? So, let me try to understand this. You want us to take Bret's word on why he's the good guy, why he's the hero, why he's the so-called Best? Uhm, no, I think I'll form my own opinion rather than to take a guy's self-absorbed opinion of himself.

Why this is a popularity contest:​

So, after reading endless amounts of bullshit and rather stupid opinions in the bar room, spam zone, and in here.. I've come to the conclusion that well over half of you that claim you know so much about the business.. know roughly the same amount of information as a guy with brain damage and memory loss every 5 minutes.

Wrestling is a scripted sport. If it could be called scripted and a sport, in the same sentence. No one wins based on true abilities, or actual power. No one wins because they can actually, and truly defeat the other guy. They win, because they're scripted and booked to win. If anyone can dispute this - I'd love to see you attempt it.

Well over half the so-called regulars on this site claim Edge has only gotten this far based off popularity, and nothing else. Well, if thats true, then he IS the greatest Wrestler of all time without the need to win or lose any further. Why? Because the only way to make it in the world of Professional Wrestling is by getting the fans to love and/or hate you.

I'm not saying Bret hasn't done that, but without a shadow of a doubt - Edge has done it 10x better. How can I say this? Because of how much Edge has been involved in Main Event angles, comparable to Bret Hart.

Bret's Big Drawing Power - is a crock of shit:​

Sly asked me to look up how many Pay per views Hart's missed from a span until Wrestlemania XII. (when Hart took time off) Bret Hart missed a pair of In Your House shows, and had several meaningless "just to be included" matches on other shows. So, first and foremost Sly - I just proved you wrong, in your assumption that Hart hasn't missed anything.

Now, added onto that.. how about you do something for a change. Check out how often Bret Hart was included on W.W.F. Monday Night Raw, from its beginning until the time he left the Company. Throughout the first two years, Hart was rarely even ON the show in a match. Need proof, you know because I assume you won't try looking up what you know is going to show your pick as being worthless and all.. here you go.

1993: 3-1 record. (4 matches within the year, total)
1994: 4-0 record. (4 matches within the year, total) - the same year he reigned as Heavyweight Champion for most of
1995: 7-2 record. (9 matches within the year, total)
1996: 7-0 record. (7 matches within the year, total) - the same year Hart was Heavyweight Champion, then took a break for most of the year.

So, from this basically the conclusion I've come from is, Sly, you're full of so much shit you need to get a colonoscopy to find out if you need further help with that issue.

Bret Hart, during arguably his best moments in Wrestling history, was on Raw from the beginning throughout the year of 1996 a total of 24 times in actual matches. So how you're claiming he was the biggest draw is well beyond me.

During his best reign as Heavyweight Champion, he appeared a grand total of 4 times in this time. Now, is Hart's record impressive? Hell yes it is. The guy only lost 3 times on television within 3-4 years. But do you blame him for not? When you miss most of the actual shows - how could you still even remotely get over with the fans, if you don't win?

Of those victories, it needs to be noted - the majority of those he beat were; Kwang, 1-2-3 Kid, Owen Hart, Hakushi, and the Brooklyn Brawler.

His losses came at the hands of; Bob Backlund, Bam Bam Bigelow, and Jerry Lawler.

Now, do me a favor.. look up Edge's televised matches. His record won't be as epic as the won/loss record that is Hart's.. but I guarantee he'll have eclipsed Hart's entire stint on Raw appearances through matches within his first two years. If not sooner. Yeah, Hart can really draw, huh Sly.

 

[klunderbunker]

You're comparing apples to oranges with Bret and Edge's first two years on Raw Will. The first two years were at least partially only one hour shows, mainly featuring squash matches. Also there were far more interviews and talk show segments, many of which Bret was featured on. He may not have been wrestling on the show, but he was there. Also, since when does the champion wrestle on every show? Look at Hollywood Hogan on Nitro. He barely ever wrestled on free tv, but was always a major part of the show. Edge was a midcard guy during his first two years, on a two hour show. Sure Edge wrestled more matches, but he wasn't a major focal point of the show, and he had twice as much time on each show. Like I said, apples to oranges.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

So, wait you're saying the Champion barely wrestles on the show huh. Fine, look up each time Edge was Heavyweight Champion. He still wrestled on the shows as well as took part in segments.

But, I bet thats apples to oranges as well, huh? You know, because in this day and age the Champion actually has to prove why he's in the top spot.. whereas back in the day, he did jack-all because they wanted to make you pay for it.

 

[JenovasWitness]

So, after reading endless amounts of bullshit and rather stupid opinions in the bar room, spam zone, and in here.. I've come to the conclusion that well over half of you that claim you know so much about the business.. know roughly the same amount of information as a guy with brain damage and memory loss every 5 minutes.

I just want to say that I think this particular comment is way out of line. I have read a great number of the posts in this forum that are wrestling related and I can honestly say it is obvious who is intelligent in regards to wrestling and who is NOT. The majority of the people posting in this thread know what they are talking about, they just come at certain topics from different angles and perspectives. As for the subject at hand, I can honestly say a lot of the points being made in previous threads such as who drew more, who took time off, popularity, etc. doesn't really hold a lot of weight with me.

I look at this like those superhero vs. superhero questions where you compare said superheroes physical and mental powers against one another and from that data decide which superhero gets his ass handed to him. I mean, this is a wrestling match, right? The object of the match is to either pin your opponent or make him tap out, right?

By those criteria, Bret wins. Hands down. He is the superior technical wrestler by a large margin, arguably he is the stronger of the two, their speed is about even and Bret has proven in the ring that he is a master tactician in the ring. Envisioning the match in my head, all I can see is Edge tapping out in the middle of the ring. That's why my vote goes to Bret.

 

[D-Man]

Why this is a popularity contest:​

So, after reading endless amounts of bullshit and rather stupid opinions in the bar room, spam zone, and in here.. I've come to the conclusion that well over half of you that claim you know so much about the business.. know roughly the same amount of information as a guy with brain damage and memory loss every 5 minutes.

Wrestling is a scripted sport. If it could be called scripted and a sport, in the same sentence. No one wins based on true abilities, or actual power. No one wins because they can actually, and truly defeat the other guy. They win, because they're scripted and booked to win. If anyone can dispute this - I'd love to see you attempt it.

Well over half the so-called regulars on this site claim Edge has only gotten this far based off popularity, and nothing else. Well, if thats true, then he IS the greatest Wrestler of all time without the need to win or lose any further. Why? Because the only way to make it in the world of Professional Wrestling is by getting the fans to love and/or hate you.

I'm not saying Bret hasn't done that, but without a shadow of a doubt - Edge has done it 10x better. How can I say this? Because of how much Edge has been involved in Main Event angles, comparable to Bret Hart.

Will, for a person with your posting skills, this is such a crock of shit. I must say that you know DAMN WELL that this is a popularity contest. I mean, it HAS TO be. It's a fictional tournament. The only thing that matters in tournaments like this is people's opinions. There is no PROOF as to why a wrestler from one generation can beat another wrestler from a generation later. But, we do our best to give our views and opinions. It's a debate, remember?

Besides, it's nice to see you feel the pain that we've been going through every time Edge has won in past rounds against (who we feel to be) far superior opponents. We've been just as fristrated as you seem to be. It sucks to lose, doesn't it?