Wrestlezone Tournament Finals: Bret Hart vs. Edge

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Whether a wrestler is a heel or a face their main job is to entertain the viewer. Edge has entertained me more than Hart.



Edge definelty carried the brand during that time, no doubt about it. Even though he wasn't champion the main event of nearly every Smackdown focused on Edge. Edge was actually entertaining and worth watching while HHH was just holding the belt in a meaninless feud with Khali. Edge was the one who main evented Summerslam, not the champ HHH.




Sure his singles matchese weren't as great as Hart's, but his matches with Undertaker at WM 24, Cena at Summerlam '06, and his match against Eddie Guerrero on Smackdown. He's also had great tag matches like his match with Mysterio against Benoit and Angle at No Mercy '02.

In addition to this, he's had some incredible gimmick matches including his TLC with Cena at Unforgiven, Hell in a Cell with Undertaker at Summerslam, and Hardcore against Foley at WM 22. Just becase those are gimmick matches doesn't mean that aren't still great or that Edge isn't a good worker. He just happens to excel in gimmick matches while Hart excels in 1-on-1 matches.





I think that Edge is ahead of Batista on that list and a few years from now HHH, Undertaker, and Batista will be gone and Edge will surely be top 5, most likely top 3.



If Edge was in the WWF during the same time as Hart he would have arguably been the top guy as well. In the WWE today, Hart also be behind the like of Cena, HHH, Undertaker, and Orton.



9 time World Champion. Argue about the brand split all you want, that's still damn impressive.



Maybe in singles matches but Edge is definetly better in gimmick matches. It's all about preference really.



Considering been in the main event for years and will be there fore years to come I would consider him important.




Just because I prefer one wrestler over another doesn't make me clueless, that's my opinion and I feel completely justified.

So if Hart excels in one-on-one matches and Edge excels in gimmick matches, wouldn't Hart beat out edge here because this is an one-on-one match.

The job of a heel is to make people hate and not cheer you. That's why I think JBL was a better heel than Edge and Orton because nobody cheered for JBL. He played his character better than anybody in recent memory.

Edge would be behind Hart, HBK, and Taker if he was in Hart's era. Hart would be way above Orton, and maybe Taker right now. He would be one of the top faces or heels if need be.

As Shocky always states, if you have numerous title reigns it only means you lost those titles that amount of times. I always said Edge is a worse champion than challenger and I will still stand by that point.

 

[Slyfox696]

Whether a wrestler is a heel or a face their main job is to entertain the viewer. Edge has entertained me more than Hart.

Bullshit.

A heel is supposed to make you hate them, that way you'll be entertained when the face beats the fuck out of them.

Basically, you are proving that you are clueless about wrestling.

Edge definelty carried the brand during that time, no doubt about it.

Not even close. Triple H was the draw, he was the one people bought tickets to see.

Edge was the one who main evented Summerslam, not the champ HHH.

Bullshit again.

Undertaker was the one who main-evented Summerslam...well, Taker and the Cell.

Sure his singles matchese weren't as great as Hart's

So you admit he's an inferior worker?

but his matches with Undertaker at WM 24, Cena at Summerlam '06, and his match against Eddie Guerrero on Smackdown. He's also had great tag matches like his match with Mysterio against Benoit and Angle at No Mercy '02.

Yes, when he's had great workers to carry him, he's had decent singles matches.

Opposed to Bret, who could put on a good match with just about anyone.

In addition to this, he's had some incredible gimmick matches including his TLC with Cena at Unforgiven, Hell in a Cell with Undertaker at Summerslam, and Hardcore against Foley at WM 22. Just becase those are gimmick matches doesn't mean that aren't still great or that Edge isn't a good worker. He just happens to excel in gimmick matches while Hart excels in 1-on-1 matches.

Completely false.

Edge is only competent in gimmick matches. In classic singles matches, he sucks, which is why he keeps getting put in gimmick matches.

Hart excelled in WRESTLING matches. It didn't matter if it was tag team, classic 1-on-1 or gimmick matches, Hart has had a great match in all of them.

Oh and the Hell in a Cell vs. Undertaker was complete and utter garbage. Arguably the worst Cell match (aside from Kennel of Hell) in wrestling history.

I think that Edge is ahead of Batista on that list and a few years from now HHH, Undertaker, and Batista will be gone and Edge will surely be top 5, most likely top 3.

What the fuck does that have to do with now?

And Edge is nowhere near close to Batista on that list.

If Edge was in the WWF during the same time as Hart he would have arguably been the top guy as well. In the WWE today, Hart also be behind the like of Cena, HHH, Undertaker, and Orton.

Bullshit. Hart was AHEAD of Undertaker when Undertaker was in his prime, why would he be behind him now? As far as Cena and Orton...I doubt it. My bet is that he would be on even footing with Cena and ahead of Orton.

9 time World Champion. Argue about the brand split all you want, that's still damn impressive.

No it's not. He's a 9 time champion during a periods which has seen 53 different world title reigns and three different World titles. That's not impressive at all.

Maybe in singles matches but Edge is definetly better in gimmick matches. It's all about preference really.

Bullshit.

Edge has NEVER had a gimmick match which can compare to Bret vs. Owen at Summerslam '94, or Bret vs. Austin at Wrestlemania 13. To the best of my recollection, there's only been two Edge matches that have come close (which, considering the number of gimmick matches Edge has been in, is not a good ration): TLC 2 at WM 17 and MITB at WM 21. Those are the only two I would say are close...and both time there are 5 other people in the ring taking big bumps.


But, then again, this isn't a gimmick match, this is a classic 1-on-1 match. And, according to you, Hart is better in those. So, shouldn't you vote Hart?

Considering been in the main event for years and will be there fore years to come I would consider him important.

And he has never been as important as Hart was to the WWF during his run.

Which makes him inferior in importance.

Just because I prefer one wrestler over another doesn't make me clueless, that's my opinion and I feel completely justified.

No, the fact that you back an inferior wrestler while trying to say he's not inferior..and then using piss bucket reasons to defend your pick is what makes you clueless.

 

[gd]

Wow, arguing that a man will be the top guy, once the main stars leaves is your argument?

He already is a top guy and will be one of the top 3 guys in a few years. Hart wasn't the top guy right from the beginning either.

Saying a man is good at spot fest matches?

Is that a bad thing? Last time I checked, gimmick matches are still considered wrestling matches and Edge's ability in those matches in one of the reason that I'm a fan.

Saying Wrestlemania 24 is as good as Bret's best matches?

I never argued that Edge's 1-on-1 matches were better than Hart's. Edge's match with Taker at WM 24 does show that he has the ability to but on well above average singles matches in addition to his great gimmick matches.

I really wish that I could call up Edge right now. In fact, I might. He lives in Canada, won't be too hard to find him. How many Edge's are in the phone book?

37

If Bret Hart's clinics don't catch your interest, and Edge having live sex does, maybe you should stick to porn, and leave the greasy men touching each other for other people.

When did I ever mention Edge's live sex celebration? Now you're just being silly. The bottom line is Edge is a more entertaining wrestler to me and is certainly capable of winning this match.

 

[Mr. TM]

That brings up another point that I have always thought of. I love Edge, but my love for what Hart has done is, wait for it... legendary.

But Edge cannot win title matches as champion. I would never bet against his opponent (unless he faces Jeff Monkey) in a match. And if you are a champion, every match has to be the biggest match. This is your biggest match, right here right now. And Edge cannot come to the table.

 

[Mr. TM]

He already is a top guy and will be one of the top 3 guys in a few years. Hart wasn't the top guy right from the beginning either.



Is that a bad thing? Last time I checked, gimmick matches are still considered wrestling matches and Edge's ability in those matches in one of the reason that I'm a fan.



I never argued that Edge's 1-on-1 matches were better than Hart's. Edge's match with Taker at WM 24 does show that he has the ability to but on well above average singles matches in addition to his great gimmick matches.



37



When did I ever mention Edge's live sex celebration? Now you're just being silly. The bottom line is Edge is a more entertaining wrestler to me and is certainly capable of winning this match.

Edge better put up soon, he is getting old, and he gets injured a lot. But then again, that is besides the point. Saying Edge WILL be the best worker means nothing, that hasn't happened yet. I could say Bret Hart could come back, and become the top guy. But as we cannot predict the future, you do not get that point.

Next point, this is not a gimmick match. This is a one on one match. There are no tables, there are no ladders, there are no chairs, oh my. this is Bret Hart, who you said has the best one on one matches, against Edge. How can you not vote against what you said before? Are you a hypocrite? I hate that word, and I would hate to be called one.

And the live sex performances, or whatever else entertains you, it all doesn't matter. You are cheering for a man who is supposed to make you pissed off. Just like how the audiences at every American show were pissed off when Bret Hart waved the Canadian flag, and just like how Bret Hart was able to get the audience to fall in love with him while he was a face around the world.

 

[Lee]

Ok so it's a one on one match....Bret does better,

It's a king of the ring style match....If I am correct Bret has never lost a KOTR match, Edge has, twice. Both to Chris Jericho, you know the man that Bret beat in the previous round.

So logically it would make sense and say that Bret is the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be, though this would be a damn good match. Sorry Edge, you did well.

 

[BooCocky]

I never argued that Edge's 1-on-1 matches were better than Hart's.

Isn't this what they are having? A one on one match? Why yes, yes they are. Hart is far superior in every way shape or form. Bret Hart has excelled in single matches while Edge always needed a gimmick to excel. Well I have some news, this isn't a TLC match, it is a Singles match.

Bret Hart wins this match and it shouldn't even be close... Edge fucks up, and Hart locks on the Sharpshooter. Hart Wins

Vote Hart.

 

[gd]

Just because Hart's 1-on-1 matches may have been "mat classics" or "technical wrestling clinics", but in the kayfabe sense he isn't that much better than Edge at 1-on-on matches. If you want to vote based on kayfabe it's much closer that simply saying "Hart's better one on one so he automatically wins."

In my opinion, Edge is a more entertaining pro wrestler and is capable of winning any match, gimmick or not.

 

[JenovasWitness]

Just because Hart's 1-on-1 matches may have been "mat classics" or "technical wrestling clinics", but in the kayfabe sense he isn't that much better than Edge at 1-on-on matches. If you want to vote based on kayfabe it's much closer that simply saying "Hart's better one on one so he automatically wins."

In my opinion, Edge is a more entertaining pro wrestler and is capable of winning any match, gimmick or not.

I think the argument goes further then that. Bret Hart has won more straight up, one on one wrestling contests as Champion during a time period when being a Champion meant something more then an employee of the month plaque. It meant you were the best in the business of professional wrestling, you faced the best in the business of professional wrestling and you beat them night in and night out.

Edge's World Championship reigns were won through machinations, sneak attacks and the manipulations of his wife/General Manager. When it came time to put up or shut up, one on one, Edge was handing the title to his opponent, 9 times out of 10.

Bret will be in his element in this match, Edge will not be as he will not have a chair in his hand or someone to run interference for him. Bret's in-ring skills far outshine Edge's. Sharpshooter. Tap-out.

 

[Dave]

Ok, since I have torn a new one in regards to why I voted Edge instead of Bret Hart, I thought that I would give a brief statement as to why I think that Edge would win. I will cover why I think he would win in terms of kayfabe and also in terms of reality. I would also like to make it abundantly clear, as if the post isn’t enough, that I am a complete rookie when it comes to this tournament and as such will be trying my level best to give you my reasons, even though I will be torn apart in the responses’ that come from other posters. Let me also say that I didn’t think that Edge should have gotten past the Undertaker in the last round but hey! It happened so let me get on with it shall I?

Right then. Firstly, let me say that I fully respect what Bret Hart has done in the ring. I was not old enough to fully take into account what impact he had in wrestling until I came onto this forum. People go nuts at the mere sight of him and call him the greatest wrestler that ever lived in some parts. To say that Edge would beat the greatest wrestler ever is way wide of the mark. In fact I would say that Bret Hart is not even in my list of top 5 wrestlers to revolutionise both the WWE and wrestling in general. Do not get in confused though, that I am trying to say that Edge is. All I am trying to do in this part of the argument is state how wrong I think it is to feel that Bret Hart has made more impact than say Hulk Hogan or The Undertaker or Ric Flair or Triple H or Vince McMahon or Stone Cold Steve Austin or Shawn Michaels. All of these guys, I would gladly put in front of Hart in terms of impact alone. I know that Hart has made great strides for the world of pro wrestling but as much as some of these guys? I don’t know.

In terms of in-ring work. I would say that Bret Hart was extremely gifted. He is a pure athlete and was great at getting what needed to be done, done. As I mentioned before, I was not old enough to watch Bret Hart in action. However, I have been lucky enough to watch a few of Bret’s matches on the internet. For me to say that Bret was not a great technician would be so blind and wrong of me. I am also not saying that Edge would be on an equal par as Bret. Edge is no slouch though. Let us not forget that Edge is a 9 time champion (I think), a 12 time tag champion and a 5 time intercontinental Champion. Call this what you like. You may say that it is easier to earn a title now. Which is true. However, you don’t see Christian or someone of his calibre getting a title shot and do you know why? It’s because over the years, Edge has proved himself as a great in ring worker and entertainer over and over again.

In terms of this match I just think that Edge has the advantage. I know that people will go to the “How is a man who is better in the ring, better physically and more dominating not getting your vote” argument but I can’t explain it. I think that if this match actually took place, it would be a lot closer than some people would think. Edge is a great entertainer, wrestler technician and he is not afraid to put his body on the line. The thing that I think puts Edge at an advantage is his mentality, the man is a winner pure and simple. His championship reigns have proven that and I think that he has now become very used to winning. Like it or not, once you are on a winning streak it is difficult for you to believe that you will lose. So you try harder and do things that you wouldn’t normally do. You think you are untouchable and to me, that’s what Edge thinks he is. Hart does not have the same mental balance as Edge does. Edge is calculating and can pick apart an opponent expertly. I keep thinking of his matches with the Undertaker and how Edge would repeatedl pick apart a limb on the Deadman and just keep on punishing that limb. Like him or hate him, Edge is a cold, calculating wrestler and that is not to be underestimated.

I will plead ignorance when it comes to how good Bret Hart was at what he did because I honestly do not know enough about the man in terms of wrestling. Sure, I have seen a few of his matches on the internet but this shrivels in comparison to how many matches of Edge’s I have seen in my lifetime. I have always thought of Edge as a man who makes things happen. Even when he was in E&C I knew that he was the main talent and that he would go far. He has all the skills needed to go very far in the wrestling business and he has shown that. He has also shown us that in the face of adversity that he can and will always find a way to win, cleanly or not. This would be illustrated in a match with Bret Hart. Hart is a legend in many people’s eyes and who am I to argue with that. All I am saying is that for some reason unbeknownst to me, I feel oddly compelled to back Edge here. I realise it is not the popular choice but hey! I gave it my best shot.

 

[JenovasWitness]

I will admit, Scotsman Dave, that was a very well written post and I appreciate your arguments more then some of the other ones written here.

Yes, Edge is all of the things that you said he is. He is cold and calculating, he is a more then a fair hand in the ring and he does make things happen. He is the Ultimate Opportunist, the Rated R Superstar and he is one of the better Superstars working for the WWE today.

But Bret is all of these things also, and, dare I say it, I believe he is better at these things then Edge. Bret put his body on the line in a brutal submission match against the premier star of the WWE's Attitude era, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and won with the Sharpshooter in the middle of the ring. Every match, he picked his opponents apart, weakening there lower body and back systematically until he would lock them in his finish. It was poetry watching him do it.

But, not only is Bret the better in-ring worker as I have previously argued, but let me introduce another aspect to Bret's game. Edge is indeed the Ultimate Opportunist...but then again, so was Bret when he needed to be. If anyone recalls Summerslam '97, Bret won the Heavyweight Championship from the Undertaker (another premier superstar). How did it happen? HBK was the referee who went to clock Bret with a chair. Bret ducked, Taker ate chair, Bret pinned him for the belt. Opportunity knocked, Bret capitalized, much like Edge would have, I am sure.

I'm sorry, Bret just has too many ways to win in the ring and he has proven this time and again throughout his career. If Edge meets him man to man, Bret's technical skill is just too much for him. If he meets him in a gimmick match, Bret has shown that he is just as capable with a chair or ring bell in hand during his match with Austin. If he finds a way to cheat, Bret will find a way also. In the end, when the gimmicks and underhanded tactics have stalemated each other, it will all come down to what wrestling is about: skill on skill, in the ring. When it came to that, Bret was in a very small group at the top of the list, a place that Edge may not ever see in his career.

 

[Christian Battlez]

I'm not voting until I have a definitive reason but I will say that since this is the King of the Ring portion of the tournament and Hart and Edge both barely squeaked by with victories over Jericho and Taker respectively I give a little Edge right now to Hart given the fact he's shown his endurance by competing in a 60 minute Ironman match with Shawn Michaels. But Edge is crafty you can't rule him out. I wouldn't put it past him to take a countout victory but on a stage like this Edge's ego may get the best of him and he may wanna end it in the ring. Hart has more technical prowess and can get dirty just like Edge. I'm going with the Hitman unless proven otherwise.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I'm going to go with Hart here. Hart is an excellent technician in the ring, and can easily frustrate Edge with counter after counter and a frustrated Edge is a sloppy Edge. A sloppy Edge plays right into the strengths of Bret Hart. The Maple Leaf will be proud of this match, and Hart will pull it off with a Sharpshooter in the center of the ring.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

It absolutely doesn't make it irrelevant. Edge has basically never won a match that didn't involve outside interferance, not in the main event anyway, be itt from Vickie raising the stakes in his favour. If your not counting outside interference, then you can pretty much discredit Edge for the last 3 years.

This is why I feel most people you criticize Edge have no business even running their mouth. Tastycles, nothing personal because you really are a good poster.. but to claim Edge hasn't ever won a Main Event without help, or cheating, is blasphemy.

First and foremost, he's a Heel. So to moan and complain that hes cheated to win is somewhat bottom of the barrel on trying to find arguments for why he couldn't win. Secondly, just because Vickie, or anyone else has interjected him into a match.. doesn't mean they help him win it.

When Edge cashed in on Cena and the Undertaker, were they beaten down? Yes. But did anyone help him win from bell to bell? NO. Was it Edge's fault he cashed in the way it was meant to happen? Only Van Dam has ever taken the case and used it in a "I'm gonna cash this in on you" moment, and if I do recall.. it was Edge, who had to help Van Dam, in order for him to win.

Going back to Survivor Series.. Sure, Kozlov and Triple H destroyed each other and Edge was brought in half way through, fresh, but he didn't win because anyone helped him interfere. In fact, Jeff Hardy ended up showing up and hitting Edge, attacking him just the same. Yet Edge found a way to win.

Going back to No Way Out.. Edge inserted himself into the Chamber match, and NO WAY helped him win against 5 other guys. He did it all on his own.

So don't give me that bullshit excuse of Edge can't win a Main Event, without outside interference. You and I both know its a lie.

Nope, nope never. Who would you rather hav interfere on your behalf? Curt Hawkins or British Bulldog? Zack Ryder or Jeff Jarrett, Chavo Guerrero or Kevin Nash. Essentially, if we're bringing up stablemates from the past, I'd take the Haret Foundation and nWo 2000 over Gangrel and some women any day of the week, wouldn't you?

Actually, I'd rather take La Familia.

So me where the Bulldog, Jeff Jarrett, or Kevin Nash helped Bret Hart in multiple situations? They didn't. If you wanna factor in outside interference, then I'll go with the group that gets shit done right. Not the 50,000th spawn off version of a group that should've died 2 years prior.

Except he hasn't, has he? Where's Edge's win against Orton?

Vengeance 2004. Raw 2007.

Where's his one on one win against Cena?

Summerslam 2006.

Where's his non gimmick win over the Undertaker?

Smackdown 2007.

Bret Hart beat every big name of his era in a one on one match. Edge hasn't done the same, that's what my point is.

But Edge, has done the same thing. If you're going to try talking shit.. make sure you talk it about something that can't be proven wrong.

Edge's longest reign was 105 days long. Which is shorter than 3 of Bret Hart's reigns, two of them "transitional", and 7 days longer than his final reign, which was again "transitional". The reason Hart's reigns are blatantly not transitional is because they are longer than the average reign of the time, as I have shown.

So wait a minute, you mean to tell me Bret Hart wasn't given the Heavyweight Championship from Ric Flair, just to drop it to the undefeated Super-Beast that was Yokozuna?

You mean to tell me he wasn't given the Championship from Diesel, only to drop it at Wrestlemania to the guy hand-picked to lead the next Generation, in Shawn Michaels? And then again, at Survivor Series of 97?

Hart's ONLY non-transitional reign, was when he defeated Yokozuna at Mania 10, then feuded with his Brother for the remainder of the year before dropping the title to someone, so it could be handed off to Diesel.

Just because Hart had longer reigns, doesn't mean they weren't transitional. Keep in mind the difference between this era, and that one. This era, you have a Pay per view every 3 weeks. That one, you have a Pay per view every 2-3 months.

Think about what that means. If his reigns were transitional, then why were they longer than those of the champions he was carrying the title between? That's ******ed. Bear in mind that without Hart's one day reign, his average would have almost doubled the average of the time.

What "one day reign" are you jabbering on about? And once again, regardless of whatever it is you're going on about - Bret Hart has been more of a transitional Champion, than an actual permanent Champion. He's had what, 7 total reigns as a Heavyweight Champion.. and only 1 of them truly meant anything where the Company felt he could be the leader.

Anyone claiming he was a leader in 1993 is talking out of their own ass. Hulk Hogan was still around during that time, and Yokozuna was the individual they were promoting more than anyone. Hart was a stepping stone in the situation.

Edge, on the other hand, has had reigns shorter than the average reign. This means that he has had shorter reigns than the people he is carrying the title between, on the whole, making him a bona fide transitional champion.

I never said Edge hasn't turned into a transitional Champion. But I will argue the subtle differences between Hart and Edge, being Edge is a heel meant to put Faces over. Hart was a Face, meant to go over the Heels. Not constantly lose to them. (which he did)

Edge's first reign was a test if nothing else, to see how people would react. They reacted greatly. As result, Edge received a much longer reign - filled with a single's victory over John Cena.

When Edge won the title from the Undertaker, he was meant to originally hold it until the follow year's Mania - but injuries forced Edge to vacate the title. Sure, you can hold that against him.. but notice for yourself, the INSTANT Edge was healthy and returned.. he regained the Championship, as if he never lost it to begin with.

All throughout Edge's career, he's won Championship after Championship and barely been seen without one around his waist. Hart, on the other hand, can't say the same thing.

It would matter if I hadn't used percentages. Everyone else in Hart's era had the same amount of PPVs to lose it on as he did, same goes for Edge. Not to mention that a large portion of Hart's career was in the In Your House era anyway.

What does the In Your House era have to do with anything? If Bret Hart was this great leader and drawing power that people (and Sly) keep rambling on about, wouldn't you think he'd be headlining more on these shows - instead of fighting in meaningless feuds, or not even appearing at all?

Someone (I think it was Lee) ran a research test in showing when the last time Edge missed a Pay per view (not including from being injured) and he came up with something like some-odd 4 years? If not more.

So tell me this much.. if Bret Hart is more of a drawing power than Edge, why wasn't he used as much as Edge is now? Edge is so much of a drawing force, that they've put a Championship on him - that allows him to be on ALL THREE Brands.. whereas with Hart, the guy wasn't even used on all their Pay per views.. when he was suppose to be this big Main Event spectacle.

Yup. Hart held the title for longer than his peers, Edgeheld the title for shorter than his peers.

Hart was a Face, and was meant to hold the Championship longer than a Heel.. that doesn't mean he wasn't transitional in building up nothing just to hand the title over.

Explain to me more than 1 feud with Owen Hart, that Bret had against when he was Champion in 1994. He had a meaningless Pay per view match with Diesel, at the 94 version of King of the Ring which never truly went anywhere. And he dropped the title to Bob Backlund, mainly because Owen was involved in getting Backlund back into the spotlight. Hart didn't feud with anyone else.

The same could be said for Edge, when he initially won the Championship the first two times. He feuded with Cena, and Cena only. He had a meaningless battle with Rob Van Dam that never went anywhere, and cupcake runs with Jeff Hardy.. but Cena was the only big time feud during that time.

The difference, once again, is that when Hart won the title each time their-after.. he feuded with one person only. Hart won from Diesel, faced the Undertaker in a match that never went anywhere. Rematched Diesel just because, and dropped the strap to Michaels.

After that, Hart won the title from Taker, had a half-way decent feud with The Patriot that truly amounted to nothing - then dropped the title to Michaels again.

Hart wins the W.C.W. strap in a Tournament, for personal reasons I won't get into.. feuds against NO ONE.. has a fucked up ending against Goldberg, joins the n.W.o. then reveals he has a career ending injury and leaves the sport forever.

Edge, on the flip side.. has won the title from Taker, then feuded with Batista over the course of several months, leading into a feud with Kane in which he gets injured. Drops the strap. Picks it directly back up upon returning, feuding with Taker leading into Mania and has a 2-month feud with Mysterio in between. (Look at that, Edge can hold 2 feuds at once - Hart can't even hold 1)

I can keep going on, but I'll stop for now. I think my point's been proven.

I said 5 out of 8, which is 5-3, as you put it. He won the Middle Eastern Cup or something, inbetween the Kuwaiti Cups, beating Austin in the final.

4-3 is his Tournament record. This random 5-8, 5-3 crap you keep coming up with is bogus and I have no idea where or how you're getting it.

Wins: Middle East Cup, Mayhem Tourney, 91 & 93 KOTRs.

Losses: 2 Kuwaiti Cups, and the European Title Tourney.

Which main eventers did Edge beat? Kurt Angle. That is all.

Edge has also defeated The Rock & The Undertaker during the time in which he was just a mere Tag Team competitor.

Ramon had main evented within five months of Hart beating him,

Ramon Main Evented against Hart at the Rumble, that was it. He hadn't Main Evented anything since then until the W.C.W Heavyweight title match against Sting, at Uncensored in 98. And even then, that match wasn't the Main Event.

Bigelow had returned and was basically undefeated

Show me proof and records of this. I don't recall Bigelow being anything but a Super Heavyweight in this tournament - built up for a one time use to lose to Hart.

and Perfect was a perrenial upper midcarder.

That was in the twilight of his career, on his way out the door. From 1993-1996, how often did Perfect wrestle? Oh.. thats right.. he didn't. He returned to W.C.W in 97, then stayed for a couple years and had a resurgence.. but certainly nothing that matters to the shape he was in during his 93 time-frame when he was on his way out.

Edge beat Angle, fair enough, but he beat Test and Saturn, absolute career nobodies.

Career nobodies that still seem to have won more Championships than Bigelow, or Perfect, it seems, while in their W.W.F/E. stint.

Rhyno was not on the same plain as any of the guys Bret beat.

You're right.. he was above them. Rhino was the last true E.C.W Heavyweight Champion. He more or less left E.C.W as the undefeated Heavyweight & Television Champion. Can any of Hart's opponent's lay claim to that? Uhm.. no.

Rhino has also become a multiple Heavyweight Champion, in two Major Companies. Bigelow held the E.C.W Heavyweight title, but nothing else. Perfect never held any Heavyweight Championship from a major Company, neither has Scott Hall.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

No, you're looking at that wrong. Just because Hart wasn't champion, doesn't mean he wasn't carrying the show.

Show me how he was, then. You can't claim he was carrying the show. And half the time Bret Hart wasn't even ON the damn shows.

Bret Hart was the company's biggest draw, both in the United State AND in every other company in the world. In the United State, during that 93-96 run, other guys like HBK, Diesel, etc. could lay part of a claim down to US drawing, but Hart was completely untouchable when it comes to International drawing ability. The WWF's International success was, in a lot of way, due to Bret Hart being such a huge draw, especially in Middle Eastern countries, Germany, and Italy.

Which is obviously why they're doing so great right now. You know, because Bret Hart laid the foundation and it had ZERO to due with the fact that each of those Countries just wanted to see the overall Product that was the billion dollar Company that was the W.W.F.

Sly, you run your mouth about how I can't claim Edge was carrying anything - yet you turn around and foolishly run your's in claiming Hart has. Please.

Bret Hart is what sold those shows. And you talked about how Bret Hart wasn't even around from Wrestlamania 12 to Survivor Series in 1996...and look what happened. Ratings, PPV buys, attendance and revenue went straight down the toilet. The longer Bret was gone, the worse business got. There's a very real reason for that.

Once again, it was obviously because Hart took his ball and went home.. instead of the power-house that was the New World Order over on W.C.W revolutionizing things in a whole new way, right.

No one has to prove that Hart was the superior in-ring worker of all time...all we have to do is prove he was better than Edge. And Bret Hart STILL gets a bigger pop than Edge does. And yes, I said pop, not cheers. So don't waste my time confusing the two.

But he doesn't, does he. Edge gets a pop each and every time his music hits. I'm not saying Hart doesn't, and I won't even say in some places Hart might not get a bigger one.. but you watch the reaction and ovation Edge got in Toronto, and it rivals that of any ovation Hart's ever received.. including (and I can't wait for NorCal to flip on this one) the reaction Hart got at the Canadian Stampede Pay per view.

Before any of you even decide to run your little mouths, just watch the footage. Don't talk about how you did, don't whine about how I'm out of my mind.. listen to the crowd reactions. Yeah.. Edge got a much larger "pop" from the Canadian fan base than Hart did.. during a time, when even as NorCal said, Hart was at his biggest with the Canadians.

Again, only has to prove he's a better seller than Edge. Watch his work from the King of the Ring, or from Wrestlemania 10. The guy flat out sells, not only short term injuries, but long term as well. And he's believable when he does it.

How is Edge not? I could sit here and debate with you for hours on how Edge could counter-act any number of "sells" Hart has done, but instead I'll ask you to give me one example on how Edge doesn't sell as good as Hart.

^that book. Read it.

You really need proof that Hart was the WWE's best draw for a long time? Fine, go read his book again.

Wait, so let me get this straight. You want me to go read a self-titled book, written in part by the man himself.. on why he's the best draw? Sly, have you lost your fricken mind?

That holds as much weight as me saying Edge believes he's the Greatest in the world, just trust and take his word for it. You really have dropped a few on the ladder around here if you think that craps gonna fly.

[youtube]jZe6LvqQaVk[/youtube]

So, because Bret Hart can cut a taped promo/segment, that makes him better? Okay.. here's a couple taped and live promos/segments that make Edge better..

[youtube]M4JfvuIAxlw&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]ZxddWDug86Q&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]QCexVf5fAXA&feature=related[/youtube]

I guess when the truth is against you, it's best to just make shit up and lie.

Its funny you should say that, considering I haven't once said anything thats a lie. If I have, I greatly invite you to prove to me what I've lied about.. please, by all means.

Instead, no, whats happening here is you think just because you're who you are, that you can run your mouth, call people out, claim they're this name or that name for voting for Edge.. and thats how you expect Hart should beat Edge? By some type of verbal beration.

Well, I guess when all else fails.. turn to moderate flame baiting. I suppose if you get enough Edge supporters banned, they can't vote, huh. Nothing else has stopped Edge thus far.. I guess any last ditch effort is worth a try, right.

Unfucking believable Will. You have more class than to just flat out lie.

Explain how I am.

Really? When was the last Wrestlemania World Title match that Edge has won? Or, are there matches bigger than a Wrestlemania World Title match?

So, wait. You're saying the only big time matches are Wrestlemania matches? Okay..

Edge is 5-2-1 at Wrestlemania.

Bret Hart is 7-6.

I'd say Edge has a better win/loss record in big time matches. Regardless of what type they are, if we're going by Mania records here.

Any intelligent person knows that carrying a show is about who's drawing. John Cena is still carrying Raw, even though he's not the champion...simply because he is what people tune in to see.

And yet Bret Hart wasn't even on most of the shows back during this so-called dominate point in which he was suppose to be carrying something. How can you carry something, when you aren't even on the show most of the time to begin with?

Sly, I'll go in with you on the fact that a person can carry a show with or without a Championship. But you're out of your mind, and completely lost it, if you think a person can carry a show without even being on it - to begin with.

If thats the case, shut the whole fricken tournament down right now, Hulk Hogan was such a drawing force in the 80's and early 90's that hes still carrying the business to this day I guess.

Please Sly, you always run your mouth about how I'm better, well you're right. You could've just stopped there. But you see, I know you at least a small bit.. and I also know you're better than these half-assed attempts you're giving out.

Oh really? Well, excuse me for thinking that it might have been Batista (you know, who improved ratings by several tenths of a point when he was there), or the Undertaker (who, you know, is the Undertaker), or even Rey Mysterio, the biggest Hispanic draw in the company...or even Triple H...because clearly that guy doesn't draw at all, right?

Please, Edge carrying Smackdown is a fucking joke. Edge hasn't carried shit, he's just been the one guy who's gotten beaten by all the faces on the show. Hello main-event jobber!

So wait, are you contradicting yourself now? Isn't Bret Hart the so-called top face that put over everyone else? He made Steve Austin, he helped create Owen Hart into being something more than a no-name. He lead the Company.

Well, if all that's true.. he didn't do it with an undefeated streak, now did he? No, in fact I'd wager to guess he lost just as much as he won.

And as far as Edge being the drawing force on Smackdown, and a major drawing force in the entire Company.. don't take my word for it.. look up what Paul Heyman wrote the week C.M. Punk cashed in on Edge.

Heyman went on to state that Edge is such a credible heel, such a valuable asset to the Company, that Edge laying motionless while Punk cashed in as a face got Punk the greatest reaction he's ever gotten as Champion.

Edge, being the "non-drawing" individual you claim he is.. is now being showcased on not just 1, but 3 shows. They gave him a Championship that allows him to be shown on all 3 Brands. But wait, why isn't Cena, or Triple H, or the Undertaker on all 3 Brands? Oh.. could it be, because Edge is a big hit with the fans, maybe? Nah.. couldn't be, right Sly?

Just keep telling yourself that.. maybe you'll get some sleep tonight.

Carrying the company and accolade's are what makes the better professional wrestler? In what world?

What does every Professional Wrestler claim to be in the business for? To win Championships. What has Edge done? WON CHAMPIONSHIPS!

Edge is every bit of the Franchise player for the W.W.E, similar to how Sting was to the W.C.W and in fact he's more or less the Dark version of Sting.

I mean, think about it...from January 2006 (Which is when Edge won his first World title), there have been 52 different World title reigns. Compare that to Bret Hart's time from 1992-1997 (5 years), there were 15 different world title reigns.

Why should I compare those things, when times change? When you add 4 Televised shows a week, and add on 12-15 Pay per views a year.. comparable to 1 televised show a week, and barely even 5 Pay per views a year, I'd say Edge holds his own to stay on top where he is.. with a title of some sort constantly around his waist.

Hart can't hold the same claim, now can he.

The fact of the matter is that accolades has nothign to do with the quality of a professional wrestler. For that, we look to how good he was in the ring, how well he connected with fans in his interviews/promos, and how well he drew. And in ALL of those cases, Bret Hart is superior to Edge.

On the contrary, Edge is superior. Bret Hart was over for all in about 3 years. Edge has been over since 2004. If not before that, even.

Will, your whole support for Edge throughout this tournament has been "perhaps" and "possibilities". PERHAPS he'll find a way to cheat to win...there's a POSSIBILITY that he'll live up to his Ultimate Opportunist nickname.

And your whole argument is a case of opinionated theories, and non-fact related statements. I've given you solid evidence that proves why Edge is every bit as good as I claim him to be.

You gave me a video package, of Bret Hart hyping up facing a bonefide jobber. And tried hocking a self-titled, self-written book off in a very piss poor and sad attempt to make me think Hart is even half as good. He's not.

VOTE EDGE!​

 

[RatedRFan]

maybe we dont write our reasons because we know that douche-bags like slyfox, (yeah you) will tell us our OPINONS are shit, and call us cowards, because we dont think his favorite(prob) is as great as he does. HOW MANY VOTES for hart are from his "fanboys?" yeah, are you sure your not voting cause your a bret hart fan/fanboy? do i have the right to call you out on that? i dont think so, wait doesn't that mean you shouldn't assume we are voting because we are fanboys? maybe we actually believe edge is better, even though he might not have as many fans.(the real reason he is ahead),
go ahead bring up the technical bologna, (wait if thats true, where is kurt angle, chris benoit?)
LONG TITLE REIGNS- if thats what we are basing voting on, wheres John cena and his long title reigns? what good did that do him?

we have the right to vote anyway we see right/fair. just because you THINK one guy is better, that doesn't make him better. thats why it an opinion. look up the definition. my opinion doesn't matter anything to you, and yours doesnt matter to me.

yeah, i think that edge is better. (my opinion) go ahead call me a "clueless fan"
im not here to make friends! besides who'd wanna be friends with guys who cant let people have their opinions? without trying to convert them?

now on to the tourney...
i think edge will/should win because he'll find one mistake and act on it(ultimate opertunist) he's speedy,powerful, and just sleazy enough to pull out a victory against a better technical wrestler(yeah i said it)

he'll grab tights, use a weapon behind the ref's back, what ever it takes. he doesnt care what risks it take, he'll risk DQ to win, if he gets caught, oh well, all of you guy's with "all the clues" (remember people who dont think hart is awesome are clueless) will have their favorite win, and all their "fanboyism" votes will not have been for nothing.

those are my OPINIONs go ahead, shit all over them, i wanted to give you more ammo to throw at us edge-heads/fanboys/clueless fans.
i dont care if you dont agree with me, like i said, i aint here to make friends, (yeah, go ahead say that you wouldn't wanna be my friend, cause i dont wanna be yours)
go ahead give me red rep, like those green/red boxes really mean the world to me

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

maybe we dont write our reasons because we know that douche-bags like slyfox, (yeah you) will tell us our OPINONS are shit, and call us cowards, because we dont think his favorite(prob) is as great as he does. HOW MANY VOTES for hart are from his "fanboys?" yeah, are you sure your not voting cause your a bret hart fan/fanboy? do i have the right to call you out on that? i dont think so, wait doesn't that mean you shouldn't assume we are voting because we are fanboys? maybe we actually believe edge is better, even though he might not have as many fans.(the real reason he is ahead),
go ahead bring up the technical bologna, (wait if thats true, where is kurt angle, chris benoit?)
LONG TITLE REIGNS- if thats what we are basing voting on, wheres John cena and his long title reigns? what good did that do him?

we have the right to vote anyway we see right/fair. just because you THINK one guy is better, that doesn't make him better. thats why it an opinion. look up the definition. my opinion doesn't matter anything to you, and yours doesnt matter to me.

yeah, i think that edge is better. (my opinion) go ahead call me a "clueless fan"
im not here to make friends! besides who'd wanna be friends with guys who cant let people have their opinions? without trying to convert them?

now on to the tourney...
i think edge will/should win because he'll find one mistake and act on it(ultimate opertunist) he's speedy,powerful, and just sleazy enough to pull out a victory against a better technical wrestler(yeah i said it)

he'll grab tights, use a weapon behind the ref's back, what ever it takes. he doesnt care what risks it take, he'll risk DQ to win, if he gets caught, oh well, all of you guy's with "all the clues" (remember people who dont think hart is awesome are clueless) will have their favorite win, and all their "fanboyism" votes will not have been for nothing.

those are my OPINIONs go ahead, shit all over them, i wanted to give you more ammo to throw at us edge-heads/fanboys/clueless fans.
i dont care if you dont agree with me, like i said, i aint here to make friends, (yeah, go ahead say that you wouldn't wanna be my friend, cause i dont wanna be yours)
go ahead give me red rep, like those green/red boxes really mean the world to me

I don't think we are necessarily calling the people who vote Edge cowards. They get called out because they vote Edge and don't give valid reasons or no reason at all to justify them doing so. I disagree with Will with most of his pro-Edge arguments but he is sticking by his guns and giving plenty of reasons and I respect him for that. If you vote for Edge on the basis that you never seen many Hart matches, then you can go on Youtube and Dailymotion and watch some. If you go into this tournament and vote based on who you watch and who you haven't watched then that is crappy judgment to go buy. You can watch those you haven't watched so you have a more structured argument and you never know. Those matches may change your opinion of a particular wrestler and cause you to vote the other away.

That being said, I see you argument about how Edge will use weapons behind the ref's back, risk DQ, etc. That doesn't meant that Bret won't try it too. Bret can get just as down and dirty as Edge and when need be, he can use a weapon behind the ref's back to win but he won't need to.

 

[2012isbs]

I have to vote Hart he's too smart for Edge and if your smart the spear is easily avoided. Bret has more meaningful title reigns then edge. Also he's just a better wrestler Edge's spear can be countered in to a sunset flip which hart would do, the Sharpshooter if countered or broken out of doesn't have that much of an effect on Bret and Bret would much more easily counter Edge's then Edge countering Bret's because Bret's had more experience with teh sharpshooter than Edge. So Edge would have to destroy Brert to even be able to htink about hitting the spear while Bret would hae to beat up the usual amount it takes for the Sharpshooter to be locked on. peple who say edge would capitalize on a mistake Bret hardly ever made a mistake and Bret would not only capitalize but take the win with any mistake edge does wether it's too early or made even the slightest mistake.
All the people who vote Edge need to justify their votes because if you read the posts in every Edge match since Raven their are more people for Edge's opponent then for Edge that actually post why they voted who they did.
So if you Vote here, post why don't just vote edge but you don't because you can't find a reason unlike TheonebigWill who always stands up for Edge and puts out a good argument usually for edge barring Taker's match with Edge.
So Vote Hart

 

[D-Man]

Right then. Firstly, let me say that I fully respect what Bret Hart has done in the ring. I was not old enough to fully take into account what impact he had in wrestling until I came onto this forum. People go nuts at the mere sight of him and call him the greatest wrestler that ever lived in some parts.

All of these guys, I would gladly put in front of Hart in terms of impact alone. I know that Hart has made great strides for the world of pro wrestling but as much as some of these guys? I don’t know.

I was not old enough to watch Bret Hart in action. However, I have been lucky enough to watch a few of Bret’s matches on the internet. For me to say that Bret was not a great technician would be so blind and wrong of me.

I know that people will go to the “How is a man who is better in the ring, better physically and more dominating not getting your vote” argument but I can’t explain it.

I will plead ignorance when it comes to how good Bret Hart was at what he did because I honestly do not know enough about the man in terms of wrestling. Sure, I have seen a few of his matches on the internet but this shrivels in comparison to how many matches of Edge’s I have seen in my lifetime.

All I am saying is that for some reason unbeknownst to me, I feel oddly compelled to back Edge here.

First of all, after reading Dave's post, I want to say that I respect his honesty, his opinion, and his humbleness. I also think he's a great poster. Dave, I know you were worried that people were going to "pick you apart" and it may seem like I'm doing that here, but I'm only using you as an example. Hopefully, you won't be offended by the statements I'm about to make, but your post proved my theory that I've had in this tournament from day one.

As far as I'm concerned, Dave is a perfect example of someone who should not be voting in this round of the tournament. Not to sound like a dick, (and I don't mean this personally) but I think he is a perfect example of why this tournament is fucked up and why Edge is doing well in it. Noobs and young, ignorant people on this site don't have a clue about Bret Hart or what he has accomplished in the past, so they foolishly vote for the wrestler they are more familiar with. Decisions like that are not only unfair to both participants and other people voting, but they RUIN THE TOURNAMENT.

I implore everyone that is reading this post (and I think that everyone can agree with me on this):

IF YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT ONE OF THE PARTICIPANTS IN THIS ROUND, DO NOT CAST A VOTE.

This is a tournament based on a fictional contest in a fictional sport. The only way to make it fair and fun is to provide theories that prove what we believe the outcome of the match would be. If other ignorant voters come into play and cast votes without knowledge or justification, they RUIN it for the rest of us.

So, if there are any of you out there that haven't casted a vote yet, PLEASE DON'T VOTE unless you are prepared to justify your decision and/or you know what the fuck you're talking about!!

Once again, sorry Dave... I hope you didn't take this personally.

 

[Slyfox696]

Show me how he was, then. You can't claim he was carrying the show. And half the time Bret Hart wasn't even ON the damn shows.

What do you mean, show you have Hart was leading the company? He was the biggest fucking draw on the show! Do you not read?

Which is obviously why they're doing so great right now. You know, because Bret Hart laid the foundation and it had ZERO to due with the fact that each of those Countries just wanted to see the overall Product that was the billion dollar Company that was the W.W.F.

Please. EVERYONE knows that Hart helped to open the International WWF business. Sure, the WWF had a presence before, no one denies it, but Bret Hart is when the business started becoming very profitable.

As far as today? The International business is a huge part of the WWE's wrestling income. Say thanks to Bret Hart.

Sly, you run your mouth about how I can't claim Edge was carrying anything - yet you turn around and foolishly run your's in claiming Hart has. Please.

How is truth, facts and logic foolish? Will, where did you go to debate school?

Once again, it was obviously because Hart took his ball and went home.. instead of the power-house that was the New World Order over on W.C.W revolutionizing things in a whole new way, right.

LOL! Took his ball and went home? He was due for time off. Jesus Christ Will.

And Will, you can't deny facts. Bret Hart left, the company went in a downward spiral, and did so hard. He came back, turned heel, made Steve Austin a star, and the company started its meteoric rise to the top.

Try and deny it all you want Will, but we BOTH know it's true.

But he doesn't, does he.

Uhh, yes he does, actually. That's why I mentioned it.

Edge gets a pop each and every time his music hits. I'm not saying Hart doesn't, and I won't even say in some places Hart might not get a bigger one.. but you watch the reaction and ovation Edge got in Toronto, and it rivals that of any ovation Hart's ever received.. including (and I can't wait for NorCal to flip on this one) the reaction Hart got at the Canadian Stampede Pay per view.

LOL!

I love how you just make stuff up. Why bother with truth when lying works so much better?

How is Edge not?

Edge is a victim (and a cause, I believe) of the atrocious selling of today, where moves hurt for 2 seconds, until it's time to go the next spot.

Edge's selling is atrocious and unbelievable. Hart would sell a fucking leg injury for 2 and a half hours (Wrestlemania 10). Edge won't sell it for 7 seconds (every Edge match).

Wait, so let me get this straight. You want me to go read a self-titled book, written in part by the man himself.. on why he's the best draw? Sly, have you lost your fricken mind?

So, let ME get this straight. You ask for proof, and then when given proof, you just toss it aside.

Will, do you have an honest bone in your body?

So, because Bret Hart can cut a taped promo/segment, that makes him better? Okay.. here's a couple taped and live promos/segments that make Edge better..

[youtube]*video here*[youtube]

[youtube]*video here*[youtube]

[youtube]*video here*[youtube]

Will, you're just not very smart are you? You should try and figure out what you're talking about before you post it. Here, let me help you.

Damn fine face promos, fucking GREAT heel promos.

Video proof? I'm not looking it up, if you say it.. back it up with something I can watch.

[youtube]jZe6LvqQaVk&[/youtube]

No one said a damn thing about Edge in that exchange. NorCal goes on to compare, but YOU asked for Video proof of great Hart promos.

And, by the way, thanks for agreeing that promo was great. I appreciate you helping me support Hart.

Its funny you should say that, considering I haven't once said anything thats a lie. If I have, I greatly invite you to prove to me what I've lied about.. please, by all means.

I thought I already had...

Watching Hart cut promos was like watching one and rewinding it to watch it over again. Its like the guy was reading from a book.. the same paragraph, from a book, that is.

I guess when the truth is against you, it's best to just make shit up and lie.

Unfucking believable Will. You have more class than to just flat out lie.

Huh, would you look at that. I already did.

Instead, no, whats happening here is you think just because you're who you are, that you can run your mouth, call people out, claim they're this name or that name for voting for Edge.. and thats how you expect Hart should beat Edge? By some type of verbal beration.

The difference between me and those other people is I have the balls to support who I'm voting for. And, while you're completely wrong, at least you have the balls to do so as well.

But, look at the number of responses in this thread supporting Hart and those supporting Edge. The people who are voting Edge are ashamed to justify their reasons, because they know they are sucky reasons, and don't want to justify it.

Well, I guess when all else fails.. turn to moderate flame baiting.

Death Is a Right? Is that you?

I suppose if you get enough Edge supporters banned, they can't vote, huh.

Umm, Will...they're not going to get banned before they post, and they probably won't post before they vote...so, pretty shitty point really.

So, wait. You're saying the only big time matches are Wrestlemania matches? Okay..

No, I'm saying there is NO bigger match than a Wrestlemania World Title match. But hey, it was worth a shot to twist things around. Of course, now that you got caught, you just look foolish.

Edge is 0-2 at Wrestlemania in title matches.

I know.

And yet Bret Hart wasn't even on most of the shows back during this so-called dominate point in which he was suppose to be carrying something. How can you carry something, when you aren't even on the show most of the time to begin with?

How was Hart not on most of the shows? Outside of his time off in 1996, when the company began bleeding money and falling like a rock, when was Hart not on the show?

See, this is what I'm talking about Will. You're lying like a dog. Go to Wikipedia. Type in Wrestlemania 8. And then go through EVERY PPV show the WWF had, and find one until Wrestlemania 12 that Bret Hart wasn't on.

Good luck.

Sly, I'll go in with you on the fact that a person can carry a show with or without a Championship. But you're out of your mind, and completely lost it, if you think a person can carry a show without even being on it - to begin with.

When was Hart not on the show Will?

Lying dog.

So wait, are you contradicting yourself now? Isn't Bret Hart the so-called top face that put over everyone else? He made Steve Austin, he helped create Owen Hart into being something more than a no-name. He lead the Company.

Well, if all that's true.. he didn't do it with an undefeated streak, now did he? No, in fact I'd wager to guess he lost just as much as he won.

Except Bret Hart winning was to propel the company forward. When Bret Hart would win a title, he'd carry it for a while. Hart's first three reigns last 174 days, 248 days, and 133 days.

Edge's 9 reigns combined don't equal Bret's first three reigns, in terms of length (Edge's 9 reigns - 434 days, Hart's first three reigns - 555)...and Bret still had 4 more World Title reigns after the first three.

Edge wins a title just to further a storyline. Bret won titles to be a champion.

And as far as Edge being the drawing force on Smackdown, and a major drawing force in the entire Company.. don't take my word for it.. look up what Paul Heyman wrote the week C.M. Punk cashed in on Edge.

Heyman went on to state that Edge is such a credible heel, such a valuable asset to the Company, that Edge laying motionless while Punk cashed in as a face got Punk the greatest reaction he's ever gotten as Champion.

Edge, being the "non-drawing" individual you claim he is.. is now being showcased on not just 1, but 3 shows. They gave him a Championship that allows him to be shown on all 3 Brands. But wait, why isn't Cena, or Triple H, or the Undertaker on all 3 Brands? Oh.. could it be, because Edge is a big hit with the fans, maybe? Nah.. couldn't be, right Sly?

Just keep telling yourself that.. maybe you'll get some sleep tonight.

Will, you have officially done the forum equivalent of jumping the shark with this part of your post.

You're trying to argue that Edge is a bigger draw than John Cena. Seriously. This PROVES you're lying out of your ass just to try and make some gullible poster believe half of what you say.

Edge isn't even in the Top 5 of drawing power in the WWE. You know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it. Triple H and Undertaker were carrying Smackdown, those were guys that fans bought tickets to see.

But, if lying to yourself helps you sleep at night, then just keep telling your that.

Edge is every bit of the Franchise player for the W.W.E, similar to how Sting was to the W.C.W and in fact he's more or less the Dark version of Sting.

Except that Sting was actually the top guy and top draw of WCW...Edge has never even been in the top 5 for the WWE.

Why should I compare those things, when times change? When you add 4 Televised shows a week, and add on 12-15 Pay per views a year.. comparable to 1 televised show a week, and barely even 5 Pay per views a year, I'd say Edge holds his own to stay on top where he is.. with a title of some sort constantly around his waist.

Exactly my point.

Look at all those opportunities Edge has to win titles. Look at all the titles he can win. The fact of the matter is that Edge only defends his title on PPVs (except for when he got shipped to Smackdown), and he loses the title as much as he gains it.

He's terrible in title matches. But he's got 9 of them because he has 12-15 chances a year, 4 shows, a 3 World titles to give him the opportunity. Not to mention 53 title changes in 3 and a half years.

Hart can't hold the same claim, now can he.

Uhh, the WWF was running PPVs every month when Hart was there, yes. And Hart still could hold on to a title.

On the contrary, Edge is superior. Bret Hart was over for all in about 3 years. Edge has been over since 2004. If not before that, even.

Bullshit, and you know it.

Bret Hart was over with fans way back at Royal Rumble 1991, when he was the first entrant and the crowd loved him. And Bret Hart was over with the fans all the way up until his retirement in early 2000. You seem to think Hart's career ended in 1997 when he left the WWF. It didn't. He went on to win two World titles in WCW as well. He was considered the biggest free agent acquisition in the Monday Night Wars at the time he came over.

That's at LEAST 9 years of overness with fans. Don't give me that bullshit.

And your whole argument is a case of opinionated theories, and non-fact related statements.

Wrong again.

I've given you plenty of facts on Hart's drawing abilities, Hart's title reign length, Edge's lack of title reign length. You, on the other hand, have just lied repeatedly, which I have pointed out several instances of in this post.

Slyfox's facts > Will's lies.

I've given you solid evidence that proves why Edge is every bit as good as I claim him to be.

You have? Where?

VOTE HART!​

I already did, Will, I already did.

maybe we dont write our reasons because

You know you're wrong?

we know that douche-bags like slyfox, (yeah you) will tell us our OPINONS are shit

If your opinion is that Edge is better than Hart, then it is shit, and you deserve to know it.

and call us cowards

The cowards are the ones who are too scared to support their position.

because we dont think his favorite(prob)

My favorite is Sting...he's not in this match.

HOW MANY VOTES for hart are from his "fanboys?"

I don't know, but I DO know that most of the posts in this thread have come from those supporting Hart.

yeah, are you sure your not voting cause your a bret hart fan/fanboy?

No, I'm voting Hart because I like Pepperoni Pizza...and because Bret Hart is clearly better.

do i have the right to call you out on that?

Sure you do. You'll make yourself look like an ignorant ass, but that's ok.

wait doesn't that mean you shouldn't assume we are voting because we are fanboys?

Actually, I assumed you voted Edge because you either hate Hart, or are clueless about wrestling. See, look:

People who vote for Edge understand NOTHING about wrestling, and are only voting because they're either Hart haters, or just clueless wrestling fans.


So, which are you? Are you a Hart hater or just clueless? Post in this thread, and I'll be more than happy to identify for you. Either way, quit being a coward and actually try to defend your position.

Told you.

maybe we actually believe edge is better

Then you are a clueless wrestling fan, like I said.

Thanks for making my point.

go ahead bring up the technical bologna, (wait if thats true, where is kurt angle, chris benoit?)

Angle sucks, Benoit killed people, and was called a vanilla midget for most of his career.

Of course neither of them would be here.


And, actually, Hart didn't really work much of a technical style in the WWF. Of course, if you knew anything about wrestling, you'd know that.

LONG TITLE REIGNS- if thats what we are basing voting on, wheres John cena and his long title reigns? what good did that do him?

I believe the Edge people are the ones who bring up title reigns. So, if we're going to talk title reigns, then let's talk title reigns.

But, blame your own fanboys for that.

thats why it an opinion. look up the definition. my opinion doesn't matter anything to you, and yours doesnt matter to me.

I know what an opinion is...doesn't change the fact your opinion is wrong.

yeah, i think that edge is better. (my opinion) go ahead call me a "clueless fan"

I already have...a couple times I think.

im not here to make friends! besides who'd wanna be friends with guys who cant let people have their opinions? without trying to convert them?

Why would you rather be ignorant than be educated?

i think edge will/should win because he'll find one mistake and act on it(ultimate opertunist) he's speedy,powerful, and just sleazy enough to pull out a victory against a better technical wrestler(yeah i said it)

You're right, because Hart was never sneaky...

Seriously, have you ever actually watched Bret Hart work?

go ahead give me red rep, like those green/red boxes really mean the world to me

HAHAHAHA

They obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[LigerBomb]

maybe we dont write our reasons because we know that douche-bags like slyfox, (yeah you) will tell us our OPINONS are shit, and call us cowards, because we dont think his favorite(prob) is as great as he does. HOW MANY VOTES for hart are from his "fanboys?" yeah, are you sure your not voting cause your a bret hart fan/fanboy? do i have the right to call you out on that? i dont think so, wait doesn't that mean you shouldn't assume we are voting because we are fanboys? maybe we actually believe edge is better, even though he might not have as many fans.(the real reason he is ahead),
go ahead bring up the technical bologna, (wait if thats true, where is kurt angle, chris benoit?)
LONG TITLE REIGNS- if thats what we are basing voting on, wheres John cena and his long title reigns? what good did that do him?

we have the right to vote anyway we see right/fair. just because you THINK one guy is better, that doesn't make him better. thats why it an opinion. look up the definition. my opinion doesn't matter anything to you, and yours doesnt matter to me.

yeah, i think that edge is better. (my opinion) go ahead call me a "clueless fan"
im not here to make friends! besides who'd wanna be friends with guys who cant let people have their opinions? without trying to convert them?

now on to the tourney...
i think edge will/should win because he'll find one mistake and act on it(ultimate opertunist) he's speedy,powerful, and just sleazy enough to pull out a victory against a better technical wrestler(yeah i said it)

he'll grab tights, use a weapon behind the ref's back, what ever it takes. he doesnt care what risks it take, he'll risk DQ to win, if he gets caught, oh well, all of you guy's with "all the clues" (remember people who dont think hart is awesome are clueless) will have their favorite win, and all their "fanboyism" votes will not have been for nothing.

those are my OPINIONs go ahead, shit all over them, i wanted to give you more ammo to throw at us edge-heads/fanboys/clueless fans.
i dont care if you dont agree with me, like i said, i aint here to make friends, (yeah, go ahead say that you wouldn't wanna be my friend, cause i dont wanna be yours)
go ahead give me red rep, like those green/red boxes really mean the world to me

Wow... that was, ...meandering gibberish, at best.
Of course you're entitled to have a personal OPINION. However once you share said OPINION with others and they find the merits of such views to be exceedingly lacking it's only common sense to prepare for the inevitable backlash of criticism. It's your right to have an opinion just as it is Sly's (and others) right to deconstruct and eviscerate it via logic and reasoning. No one is "shitting all over them", but obviously the harshness of their respective replies will be in a directly inverse proportion to the validity upon which your personal opinion is based.
And by the by, a question if I may: If you're not here to make friends, and you're not here to share and perhaps fortify your opinions in any rational or meaningful way, why are you here? You do realize this is a forum; which by it's very definition -an assembly, meeting place, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest- is designed to bring about dialog rife with participation and interaction; that the sole purpose for it's existence is for professional wrestling fans to come together and debate/discuss their opinions and ideas with regard to the viewpoints of their fellow posters.
Simply put my friend, no one is attacking you, or your opinion personally; we are merely asking you to fully involve yourself within a system you've voluntarily chosen to become part of. If you're unable, or would choose not to, then you should fully expect our more intransigent members (like Sly) to censure your somewhat insufficient participation (and rightly so I might add).

 

[Loveless]

Strength - Edge is a lanky streak of piss, don't try and deny it. I would say fairly confidently that Hart is stronger and even if it's close, Hart not only has the knowledge and technique to outmuscle him but who is more likely to wear the other one down?

Hart 1-0 Edge

Speed - You might think looking at this that Edge might take this. I'd say go and watch the Iron-Man match from WMXII, where Hart matched HBK Prime step-for step. Now consider who is quicker out of Edge and HBK. Added to that Hart's speed of thought is beyond anyone I've ever seen.

Hart 2-0 Edge

Technical Skill and Mat Wrestling - It really isn't even worth arguing

Hart 3-0 Edge

Promo Ability - This is kind of irrelevant but I'll go over it anyway. Hart is probably the best storyteller the WWE has seen. I do believe he's the only WWE champion from outside the US to be hugely over. The guy was getting cheered over American guys, that's almost unheard of.
Conversely, Edge couldn't get over as a face in 6 years. Christian was the popular one, Edge was a lesser Matt Hardy stuck in a tag-team. Even if you disagree with that assessment, he's still not on the same planet as Hart

Hart 4-0 Edge

Intelligence - Edge is smart, he's a cheating bastard and will advantage of a situation, however where's his advantage here? There's no assistance here (that isn't outmatched), he's not facing someone who's just been beaten down (certainly not by more than himself). This is the main event of the WZ year and it's going to be a clean finish, that means Edge hasn't a hope in hell. Hart will have the spear scouted and will never turn his back on Edge.

Hart 5-0 Edge

Legacy - Hart will go down as one of the greatest wrestlers to ever step foot in the ring. He's written into the fabric of the business through his matches, his family and his success in 2 major companies.
Edge will go down as the guy who couldn't keep hold of the belt. A multi-time champion who was never even in the top 5 workers in the company and a guy who will never draw.

Hart 6-0 Edge

Quality Matches - It's a walkover. For every memorable match Edge has had, you could name 2 for Hart. I can't honestly think of an Edge match I'd be bothered about seeing twice.

Hart 7-0 Edge

Wins -
Hart has cleans wins over, HBK, Mr Perfect, Ric Flair, The Undertaker, Steve Austin, Diesel, Yokozuna, Roddy Piper, was booked to beat Hogan, Vader, the list goes on.
Edge - Kurt Angle, a half-dead John Cena after Edge had failed to beat Flair earlier in the night, Mick Foley, a half-dead Undertaker, a battered HHH, the elimination chamber.

Hart 8-0 Edge

Drawing Ability - Oh good lord. Hart kept the WWE alive from the moment Hogan left, he was The man for at least 3 years and a major player until the day he left.
Edge has never been the main man, not even close and never will be. He now finds himself consigned to the tag team belts and we all know how important they are.

Hart 9-0 Edge

Oh yeah but Edge could still cheat so none of this matters...

 

[Mr. Steve]

I'm seeing a few people using "kayfabe" and non kayfabe method for presenting their points, so I'll do it here that way. Makes it easier.

Kayfabe-wise, Hart has serious advantages over Edge wrestling wise. Not to mention that he's completely versatile than Edge. Edge uses the dirty tricks to get wins, but no way in hell, he can't pull one over on Hart. No way.

Out of kayfabe...Bret's the safe booking in my opinion.
By safe booking, I mean that the mere fact that he's the safest guy to work with in the business when he was wrestling.Well, except for that unfortunate event with Goldberg that he ended up retiring, and...well, you know the rest.

What I'm trying to say is, I voted for Hart, because he earned his rep as one of, if not the best technical wrestlers alive.I'ts the mark in me saying that Hart HAS to win. Though it would be a dream match to have him and Edge on a Main Event Wrestlemania.
Unfortunately, it will never happen...but one can dream, can they?

 

[Tenta]

Admittedly, I hate working on laptops, especially when itruins all the work you spent two hours on. Jesus. Anyway, this will be an outstanding match, and I have ample respect for both wrestlers. Will, you've done a beautiful job getting Edge this far. Bret Hart is one of the most technically sound wrestlers of all time.

But when I really consider it, if I'm voting for my all time best wrestler... Well, I want a wrestler who got to his spot on purpose. I don't want a wrestler that got to the main event merely by circumstance. And that is the case with one Bret Hart.

Think about it.... If Vince wasn't under the steroid probe in which he was, would Bret Hart have even gotten the chance he did? Vince chose Bret, simply because there was no one else, and he needed a wrestler that looke relatively clean. That was Bret Hart for him. And anytime that Vince didn't need Bret to be his figurehead for his Congressional Probe, he was pushed back down to the mid-card, working with the likes of Jerry Lawler, Fatu, Doink the Clown, and the 1-2-3 Kid. Riveting, really, when you think about that talent.

Perfect example of this would be his run from late 1992-March 1993. Even at this run, the only wrestlers he went against were mid-carders. His best win was against Razor Ramon, for God's sake. Then, at Wrestlemania IX, Vince had chance to show he believed in Bret. All he had to do was have Bret go over Yokozuna. It wouldn't evn have had ti be clean, all Bret had to do was go over. Yet, at the end of the night, who did he wind up giving the belt to?

Do you know how much Vince didn't want to have to go to Hulk? There was nothing Vince wanted to do less. He'd been trying to replace Hulk for the last five years. Yet, here Bret was, with the belt, and floundering too much. Vince didn't believe in Bret, whatsoever. And that should really tell you something regarding Bret Hart, and how you really should view this man.

Even worse, once Hulk was gone in 1993, during Summerslam, Vince had a chance to show Bret he believed in him again. Hell, there was no Hulk to deak with it, so it'd be very simple to put him over Yoko. And who wound up getting the nod over Bret?

And this was company suicide for Vince to do. Yet, he believed much more in Lex than he ever did Bret Hart.

No, while Vince never had faith in Bret, he certainly had all of the faith in the world for Edge. Even once Edge lost his belt, Vince knew he couldn't keep Vince too far away from winning the belt, in his kayfabe prime. Why is that? Because Edge simply sells. He sells tickets, and brings in money for Vince. McMahon isn't stupid; he knows that Edge is one of hbis best wrestlers of all time, and one of the most charismatic. That's why Vince made sure to keep Edge always close to his main event. Which far more than I can say for Bret. For some reason, Vince simply was more comfortable keeping Bret in the mid-card, wrestling the likes of Pierre Lafitte and Issac Yankem.

Also, Edge is the kind of opponent that gives Bret fits. Bret hates two kind of wrestlers; brawlers and aerial wrestlers. Men like HBK, The Undertaker, Diesel, Yokozuna... These were the men that gave Bret trouble. Sure he could win against technical specialists like Owen Hart and Bob Backlund. But when push came to shove, these men got the edge over Bret more often than not. And even in victory, Bret had so much difficulty against high fliers. Even simply against a man like this;

And for that will say Edge isn't a high flier like The Kid, I'd agree. Edge is more of a high flier in the way of Shawn Michaels. And I would play tape of these men's best match, but there are two problems.

1. It was sixty minutes long, and I don't feel like making you watch all of it.
2. We all the fact that Bret lost.

Besides, when one considers a tournament in the KOTR format, like we have right here; well, heel winners go on to great things, and win a majority of the times. Heels always capitalize on a winded face to go on to victory, and go on to great heights.

Let's consider it;

1993; Bret won, Will pointed to the men he beat, so not point in emphasizing they were mid-carders.

1994: Owen took advantage of a winded Razor to go on to victory.

1995: Mabel beat an exhausted Savio Vega

1996: Steve Austin beat an injured Jake Roberts

1997: Triple H beat a wounded Mankind, with assistance.

1998: Ken Shamrock won. Yeah. That was great.

1999: Mr. Ass took advantage of a fatigued X-Pac.

2000: Kurt Angle took advantage of an injured Rikishi, injured by Chris Benoit

2001: A heelish Edge took advantage of a distracted (admittedly heel) Kurt Angle

2002: Brock Lesnar took care of a tired and weak RVD.

2006: Booker T beat a distracted Lashley.

2008: William Regal beat a fatigued CM Punk.

As you can see, in kayfabe the tournament sets up for some estabvlished face to do the job, be it by his injury or fatigue, to an up and coming face. Bret has had two wars in the first round, and Edge is a relative up and comer.

With all this mind, I have to vote Edge.

 

[Loveless]

Well that's all well and good but it's a fatally flawed argument when you look closer and compare the stats

Bret Hart - 5 time WWE champion for a total of 654 days
Edge - 4 time WWE champion for a total of 139 days

Now to me, that suggests Vince has a hell of a lot more faith in Bret than Edge. That's not even considering that Bret only had 4 years at the top in the WWE and he was champion for 2 of them.