Wrestlezone Tournament Finals: Bret Hart vs. Edge

[Tastycles]

You do realize Hart never actually beat Goldberg, without major outside interference and/or help. The same type that most people claim wouldn't be involved in this tournament.. which makes this irrelevant.

It absolutely doesn't make it irrelevant. Edge has basically never won a match that didn't involve outside interferance, not in the main event anyway, be itt from Vickie raising the stakes in his favour. If your not counting outside interference, then you can pretty much discredit Edge for the last 3 years.

Unless you want to make it relevant, which I'm fine with.. because you can take Hart winning that way.. and match it up against Edge having Vickie, Lita and La Familia's help any day of the week.. and Edge would still win. (watch how many countless people ignore that I'm replying to you - and think I'm saying he'd win w/ help. )

Nope, nope never. Who would you rather hav interfere on your behalf? Curt Hawkins or British Bulldog? Zack Ryder or Jeff Jarrett, Chavo Guerrero or Kevin Nash. Essentially, if we're bringing up stablemates from the past, I'd take the Haret Foundation and nWo 2000 over Gangrel and some women any day of the week, wouldn't you?

As has Edge.. your point, being?

Except he hasn't, has he? Where's Edge's win against Orton? Where's his one on one win against Cena? Where's his non gimmick win over the Undertaker? Bret Hart beat every big name of his era in a one on one match. Edge hasn't done the same, that's what my point is.

Outside of his reign in 1994, in which he defended the title against his brother for the most part, Hart hasn't had a reign that wasn't considered to be transitional.

Edge's longest reign was 105 days long. Which is shorter than 3 of Bret Hart's reigns, two of them "transitional", and 7 days longer than his final reign, which was again "transitional".

The reason Hart's reigns are blatantly not transitional is because they are longer than the average reign of the time, as I have shown. Think about what that means. If his reigns were transitional, then why were they longer than those of the champions he was carrying the title between? That's ******ed. Bear in mind that without Hart's one day reign, his average would have almost doubled the average of the time.

Edge, on the other hand, has had reigns shorter than the average reign. This means that he has had shorter reigns than the people he is carrying the title between, on the whole, making him a bona fide transitional champion.

I'm not saying Edge hasn't been considered the same, but to say Hart's reigns are more significant is a bit of a stretch.

No it isn't.

You also need to consider, Hart defended the title during a time frame in which they held 5 Pay per views a year. Edge is doing it, when the title is defended on regular television, as well as 12-15 Pay per views a year.

It would matter if I hadn't used percentages. Everyone else in Hart's era had the same amount of PPVs to lose it on as he did, same goes for Edge. Not to mention that a large portion of Hart's career was in the In Your House era anyway.

Sizable different.

Yup. Hart held the title for longer than his peers, Edgeheld the title for shorter than his peers.

First, where are you getting this 5-8 record from? I did include all his Middle East tournaments. As well as the European tournament. Hart is 4-3, you're actually making him seem worse.

I said 5 out of 8, which is 5-3, as you put it. He won the Middle Eastern Cup or something, inbetween the Kuwaiti Cups, beating Austin in the final.

But the list of talent each individual has faced, is more leaning in Edge's favor when you consider the time in which Edge faced them. He was a mid-carder, beating Main Eventers in the 01 KOTR. Hart was a former Heavyweight Champion, facing mid-carders in the 93 KOTR.

Which main eventers did Edge beat? Kurt Angle. That is all. Ramon had main evented within five months of Hart beating him, Bigelow had returned and was basically undefeated and Perfect was a perrenial upper midcarder. Edge beat Angle, fair enough, but he beat Test and Saturn, absolute career nobodies. Rhyno was not on the same plain as any of the guys Bret beat.

 

[Slyfox696]

See, I'm not debating that he was a top guy during this time frame, just that its a little bit of an overstatement to claim that he put the company solely on his shoulders and carried the whole load alone.

No, you're looking at that wrong. Just because Hart wasn't champion, doesn't mean he wasn't carrying the show.

Bret Hart was the company's biggest draw, both in the United State AND in every other company in the world. In the United State, during that 93-96 run, other guys like HBK, Diesel, etc. could lay part of a claim down to US drawing, but Hart was completely untouchable when it comes to International drawing ability. The WWF's International success was, in a lot of way, due to Bret Hart being such a huge draw, especially in Middle Eastern countries, Germany, and Italy.

Bret Hart is what sold those shows. And you talked about how Bret Hart wasn't even around from Wrestlamania 12 to Survivor Series in 1996...and look what happened. Ratings, PPV buys, attendance and revenue went straight down the toilet. The longer Bret was gone, the worse business got. There's a very real reason for that.

You get on WZ when you're in your bathroom, too? What are the odds.

It's where I do my best work...

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

No one has to prove that Hart was the superior in-ring worker of all time...all we have to do is prove he was better than Edge. And Bret Hart STILL gets a bigger pop than Edge does. And yes, I said pop, not cheers. So don't waste my time confusing the two.

See above statement by me.

Again, only has to prove he's a better seller than Edge. Watch his work from the King of the Ring, or from Wrestlemania 10. The guy flat out sells, not only short term injuries, but long term as well. And he's believable when he does it.

Proof? (that he never injured anyone)

^that book. Read it.

Proof?

You really need proof that Hart was the WWE's best draw for a long time? Fine, go read his book again.

Video proof? I'm not looking it up, if you say it.. back it up with something I can watch.

[youtube]jZe6LvqQaVk[/youtube]

Yes, NorCal, because there is no way Edge could cut bland Face/Heel vs Face/Heel traditional old school style promo after promo. Watching Hart cut promos was like watching one and rewinding it to watch it over again. Its like the guy was reading from a book.. the same paragraph, from a book, that is.

I guess when the truth is against you, it's best to just make shit up and lie.

Unfucking believable Will. You have more class than to just flat out lie.

And yet he's still lost bigger ones. Amazing.

Coming from the guy who's supporting the wrestler who is 0-3 in his last three Wrestlemania matches, 2 of which were World title matches, I find this statement to be quite ironical.

And yet he's still won bigger ones. Astounding.

Really? When was the last Wrestlemania World Title match that Edge has won? Or, are there matches bigger than a Wrestlemania World Title match?

What Makes a Wrestler, the "better" Professional Wrestler?​

All right! This is why I quoted you in the first place.

The initial thing I'm sure some would say, is how much that individual can carry and lead a Company. So let's review.

Bret Hart: Won the Heavyweight Championship from Ric Flair in 1992, and carried the Company for four months before dropping the title to a man who later (as in minutes, later) passed it back to Hulk Hogan. What's that show you? It shows you that the Company was more or less testing Hart, and he never got even a sniff of the title until a year later.

From this point, Hart won the title on the same night he lost to his Younger, less talented brother, and once again Carried the Company for roughly eight months. Before he dropped it to yet another aging wonder, in Bob Backlund, who passed the title off to Diesel, who proceeded to carry the Company for the next year when Hart was losing to Pirates, Ninjas and phony Kings w/ ugly Dentists.

Hart once again won the title, only to yet again become the transitional Champion a mere four months later in handing the title off to Shawn Michaels. What'd Hart do then? Walked away for the rest of the year, only to come back and try to once again be a leader.

By this point, Hart had successfully carried the Company for a collective full year. (this is of course pointing out that by Hart carrying the Company - I mean Main Eventing, which back then is what the Champion always did)

So, in 1997 Hart had his arguable best year. He lost the Rumble, but should've won. (should've, could've, would've - didn't, though, did he) He did win against Austin at Mania, but proceeded to lose the overall war to him in the end. He got put in a wheelchair (like Vickie) for about 2-3 months, then came back to fall back into another title reign, thanks to Shawn Michaels. (but hey, a win is a win and I'll give him that) At this point, Hart as the Champion wasn't even the main focus anymore - being over-shadowed by the Undertaker and H.B.K. And finally, Hart wrapped up his arguable best year ever by refusing to job to Shawn Michaels, and still losing in the worst possible way, anyways. Nice.

So, let's for argument sake say Hart carried the Company for a good full 2 years. He actually didn't, but I'll give him that outta the goodness of my heart. Get it, Hart - heart.. eh, anyways..

Oh Will, how dare you accuse others of a lack of wrestling intelligence, and then babble on with this bullshit?

Any intelligent person knows that carrying a show is about who's drawing. John Cena is still carrying Raw, even though he's not the champion...simply because he is what people tune in to see.

C'mon Will. Quit wasting our time.

Edge: I'm definitely not repeating all that I've already said. Unless you really want me to - trust me, if you do, it'll only end worse for Hart fans. However, I will say very simply.. Edge carried Smackdown, collectively, for 3 years alone. That beats anything Hart's done..

Oh really? Well, excuse me for thinking that it might have been Batista (you know, who improved ratings by several tenths of a point when he was there), or the Undertaker (who, you know, is the Undertaker), or even Rey Mysterio, the biggest Hispanic draw in the company...or even Triple H...because clearly that guy doesn't draw at all, right?

Please, Edge carrying Smackdown is a fucking joke. Edge hasn't carried shit, he's just been the one guy who's gotten beaten by all the faces on the show. Hello main-event jobber!

Moving on, to the final piece of what many would argue makes the better Professional Wrestler.. Accolade's and Accomplishments.

Wait...what?

Carrying the company and accolade's are what makes the better professional wrestler? In what world?

Drawing ability, in-ring ability, mic ability...THOSE are what determine the better pro wrestler. Meaningless titles, especially those titles where there are FIFTY-TWO (52) different World Champions in the span of 3 and a half years, certainly have no bearing on who is a better worker.

I mean, think about it...from January 2006 (Which is when Edge won his first World title), there have been 52 different World title reigns. Compare that to Bret Hart's time from 1992-1997 (5 years), there were 15 different world title reigns.

Sure, Edge should have more World Title reigns. There's three fucking World titles, and they're being passed around like a hot potato. Trying to use accolades is ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that accolades has nothign to do with the quality of a professional wrestler. For that, we look to how good he was in the ring, how well he connected with fans in his interviews/promos, and how well he drew. And in ALL of those cases, Bret Hart is superior to Edge.

So apparently you're wanting people to follow you down a road of "perhaps" and "possibilities". I hope this road has a scenic view, because from how you're describing it - its very far out there.

Will, your whole support for Edge throughout this tournament has been "perhaps" and "possibilities". PERHAPS he'll find a way to cheat to win...there's a POSSIBILITY that he'll live up to his Ultimate Opportunist nickname.

Jesus Christ Will, could your pot be any more black?

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Blah, blah, blah.. Maybe you should visit Wisconsin, I've heard they have amazing cheese. It sure seems like it'd go great with all that whine.

ESW, I believe I read something from you a bit back on how you've lost respect for me.. I truly am sorry for that. I'm even more sorry, that you honestly let me backing my favorite get in the way of you holding respect for me.

Maybe when I get tired of having a favorite, you'll like me again. Or not. I still actually respect and like you though, I just wish you'd quit whining about things that aren't relevant anymore. He won, in each of those complaints you're rambling about.. can we move on, please?

Yarp. We can move on. That's why I'm asking the insanity to stop now. I have nothing against the concept of picking a guy and backing it. I learned more about Vader last year thanks to IC25 than I ever, EVER thought I'd ever want to know. But there's something about this year's tournament that's off. At this point, I'm seriously questioning what the criteria is anymore for the voting. It almost seems like the vast bulk of votes are coming in just to alter future outcomes, to get rid of wrestler X or Y, rather than on any particular issue. I think I may have actually seen someone use the A beat C, and B can beat A, so therefore B can beat C argument used... which I sort of thought was the holy grail of dumb arguments.

Its not WHO you picked, Will. Its some of the arguments I've heard are either really weak, or blanket arguments that don't really pertain to just Edge. I'm suprised I haven't heard logic like "Hogan beat Taker, and Edge tagged with Hogan, so Edge can beat Taker, too."

This whole year's tournament has a been a frenzy more about not who should win, but who we don't want to win and see knocked out this year. Its been messier than a paint truck accident.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

What bothers me is when people bring up that Edge doesn't deserve to be in the finals. It's irrelevant and erroneous. The match is Hart vs Edge. I am not whining about Jericho's one-vote loss, so nobody should bitch about Edge making it here. That's the way the votes fell.

Anyway, on to the dicussion. I am backing Bret "Hitman" Hart feverishly. He has been one of the best professional wrestlers on just about anyone's top 10 list for damn good reasons. Slyfox listed many of them, NorCal touched on it, as has Tastycles. I am not here to give Will yet ANOTHER opponent to concern himself with (not that he minds) but I need to do my part to ensure the right man wins.

Kayfabe wise, this isn't even a contest. People, on Wrestlezone, this is the biggest event of the year. This match is the final match of a tournament that lasts months. It's our Wrestlemania, and this is the main event. It's pretty safe to say that the idea of outside interference isn't going to be a factor. Besides, this is a tournament, not a Book This, so writing up fanatical storylines about outside interference is a cop-out to simply stating that Bret Hart is the better professional wrestler and would defeat Edge.

I read an argument about Edge's role as an opportunist and taking shortcuts, and if he does that in this match, he'd prevail. Bret Hart has dealt with people like this before, most notably, his brother Owen. Owen Hart took loads of opporunities to make life difficult for his brother, and when the time came for the two to meet in the ring, Bret won the finale at Summerslam. Bret beat heels like Razor Ramon, Diesel, and British Bulldog who took shortcuts.

And to say the spear is a superior finisher? Really?

Bret Hart is the king of "playing possum." Ask Diesel. Ask Flair. Ask anyone who has had a seemingly prone and unconscious Bret Hart on the mat, only for him to roll them up or leap up and toss them from the top turnbuckle. You don't think Bret will sucked Edge into preparing for a spear on a seemingly weakened Hart, only to small package him? You don't think Bret will have that scouted?

Will, your argument on determination actually hurt the overall value of your dissertation. I won't even touch it, just because I like you and I do not want to make you cry.

I'll jump in periodically, but Bret Hart gets my full and unyielding support here.

 

[Uncle Sam]

So apparently you're wanting people to follow you down a road of "perhaps" and "possibilities". I hope this road has a scenic view, because from how you're describing it - its very far out there.

You're right.

People of WrestleZone, let us think deeply for a moment. Why should we think of what is possible or even probable? We would be fools to do such. Fools, I say! As the great Martin Luther (not the civil rights leader - other guy) said, "reason is the Devil's harlot." I don't want to walk in on you fucking the Devil's harlot to within an inch of her life; i.e. voting for Bret Hart.

No, WrestleZone! Retain your purity and innocence! Baseless conjecture and half-truths - this is the road we must follow. Vote Edge. It's what Jesus would do.

If you examine this match with logic and rationalism and, God forbid, use your common sense, then your soul is truly lost and I can no longer help you. No one can.

 

[Theo Mays]

Two of my favorite wrestler ever going one on one. Man this is a match I'd love to see. And I can't vote against my all time favorite in Bret Hart. Edge will give him a hell of a run, but Hart is a master of tournaments, and will get Edge in the Sharpshooter, dead center and Edge will fight to get out of it, but he won't and after the struggle he submits and Hitman is declared the winner.

 

[Sasori]

I gotta go with Bret in this one!
I'd be surprised if Edge could even walk! I mean he just took on Brock Lesnar in a barbed wire match, than Austin, than 'Taker! Now if that isn't a beating I do not know what is! But than again Bret hasn't had the easiest steps up the ladder either. Now Bret would be back from two crazy matches from The Rock and Jericho! But I can't see The Rock and Jericho dishing out as much pain as Lesnar, Taker, and Austin especially because Lesnar's match was a barbed wire match! Plus Bret has more stamina and is used to these kinds of touneys. Remember he is a 2 time KOTR winner! Plus either way were gonna have a winner who's Canadian! But still no credit taken away fro mEdge he's like the face of the WWE! So Canada wins! XD no offense...

 

[Shock]

I gotta go with Bret in this one!
I'd be surprised if Edge could even walk! I mean he just took on Brock Lesnar in a barbed wire match, than Austin, than 'Taker! Now if that isn't a beating I do not know what is! But than again Bret hasn't had the easiest steps up the ladder either. Now Bret would be back from two crazy matches from The Rock and Jericho! But I can't see The Rock and Jericho dishing out as much pain as Lesnar, Taker, and Austin especially because Lesnar's match was a barbed wire match! Plus Bret has more stamina and is used to these kinds of touneys. Remember he is a 2 time KOTR winner!

Now I said already, Lesnar's match was not included in the KOTR matches. You need to think first before you post. Why would Edge have three when Hart had two? You need to think.

Also, Edge is extremely used to long matches, man. Has them all the time. Plus, as Will stated earlier, Hart's two KOTR wins both included one round byes each and were not spectacular.

Get some real reasons. So until you do...

Vote Edge.

 

[Slyfox696]

Now I said already, Lesnar's match was not included in the KOTR matches.

So, the damage from a Barbwire match all of a sudden just magically goes away?

You need to think first before you post.

You're supporting Edge in this match. Who the hell are you to tell people to think before they post?

Also, Edge is extremely used to long matches, man. Has them all the time.

He does? Since when?

Plus, as Will stated earlier, Hart's two KOTR wins both included one round byes each and were not spectacular.

Who gives a fuck? Both Edge and Hart come in wrestling the same number of matches.

And Hart is easily the superior wrestler.

Vote Edge.

Yes, because why would you bother to vote for the better wrestler?

Vote Hart.

 

[Milkyway!]

Since I find you're talking out the side of your mouth on every single part of your post, only to hope Edge wins, I think I'll just go ahead and shoot for the part that I found made the most since in your post.

Resiliency vs. Determination:

I don’t think anyone can question either man’s resiliency

I think we can question Edge's resiliency my friend. Was it not Edge he left on a small haitus, because his stress level was piling up just 2 years ago? Then again, was it not Hart, who overcame a stroke, is now walking, talking, etc perfectly, and even said he could wrestle again, but chooses not to? That my friend is resiliency, what has Edge been through in his life, really? Let me give you the answer, nothing. He steals titles, and talks in front of thousands of people, something Hart did, and never took a haitus "Because the stress is piling up."

but in this situation you then have to look at which individual wants it more.

Okay lets, Bret Hart truely loved the business, and would do anything for it. He wrestled during a time period in which is was all about wrestling, not this entertainment crap. He wrestled before the Wrestling world was tainted by TLC match, ECW, Hardcore bs in every single pay per view. Anyone can swing a chair, but it takes determination, to truely do what Hart did. Check out his career start, his father told him no no no no no no no no no no, when Hart wanted to quit amatuer wrestling (lets not even get into the shit Hart did to become State Champion his FIRST year in amatuer wrestling, now thats, determination), and move onto professional style wrestling in Canada. Hart did it anyways, he faced his fathers brutalizing no's, and shot downs to become a professional wrestler, and look at where he is today.

Bret Hart has taken this business more serious than the plague, but Edge is arguably more passionate about every match he has than anyone I’ve ever seen.

Prove it? How do you know what Edge's personality is like? On screen were told Edge is like this, but even The Rock said he loved professional wrestling, and would never leave. You can't prove shit like this..Edge has wrestled maybe a decade (for the WWE) How do we know hes not going to get fed up with it tomorrow, and just leave for hollywood or some shit? Hart on the other hand joined into the professional wrestling business at the age of 19, and wrestled until he was 43 years old, thats showing true love for a business.

I don’t think even NorCal can argue how pumped Edge was during his entrance for a Mania

You question the NorCal? He can aruge my skin color if he wanted. I jest, anyways. All wrestlers are pumped for WrestleMania, I think Edge has a better way of showing it than others, but to question Hart's ability to stay calm during a high profile match such as one at wrestlemania, is silly. Hart can take the energy pumping through Edge's vains, and clearly knock the everloving shit out of Edge. Edge has proven his cheating ways, aren't always benificial, Hart isn't an idiot, he'll have Edge well scouted, and easily dominate Edge with his rash way of thinking, under high velocity situations. I'd trust hart with my life, falling from 10000 feet in the air, naked, with no parachute, and still think I could live.

Now, I said I wouldn’t question either man’s resiliency, but I am going to question the time’s in which each individual Wrestled, to see who’s possibly more resilient. First, Hart..

You should find that Hart is the more resilient, from the arguement above. Edge cracks under stress as he proved a couple of years ago. Hart, doesn't.

Hart wrestled during a time when finishing moves were the finish of almost every single match, and you had next to NO reversals that kept the match on-going.

Err, did you ever watch Hart vs Michaels? Or are you just blurring that part of Hart's career out of your mind? Hart and Michaels took several finishers from eachother through the years, and they reversed one another several times a match, its silly to think otherwise.

During Hart’s timeline, it was also a point in time when a single chair shot laid you out for a 3-count. Obviously, things have changed in a great deal.

Obviously so, because chair shots are weak. As I've said above ANYONE can swing a chair. Hell fire, I could give my 3 year old sister a chair and let her swing it on another 3 year old to knock them out for 3 seconds. Hart wrestled during a time period when wrestling was about wrestling, not hardcore bullshit.

It could be argued that perhaps the finishers aren’t as crisp, or maybe the chair shots aren’t as hard, but regardless Edge has out-lasted more finishers in single matches, than Hart has.

Actually, if you really wanna get into this. Finishers started to become kickoutable (yeah I made that word up) during the Austin vs Rock era, at WrestleMania. When they took eachothers finishers several times a match, and each of them still kicked out, the croud when nuts. This has been a repeated process over the years, and it makes nearly all finishers look very weak. The only finishers your can truely count on it being the end of the match is The STF, Pedigree, Sweet Chin Music, and The Tombstone. The rest, I wouldn't even consider finishers anymore. Just a trademark high impact move, wrestlers use to HOPEFULLY end the match. Well fuck, thats what a finisher is, without the hopefully part.

And Edge’s over-come chair shots in matches, where as Hart has been laid out and had to be revived.

Now becuase Hart can sell extremely well, you proclaim hes not going to be able to take a chair shot from Edge? Plus, this is a KOTR style tournament, its silly to even think about the chair, when Edge's only chair shot = the cachairo (or however you spell it) That takes time to set up, and considering theres going to be a referee watching, your arguement with a chair shot is irrelevant.

So on this note, I’d say neither man is going to just lay down, but Hart might not have it in the gas tank, as much as Edge would, to out-last the other.

Thats silly, Hart is known for having the most stamina in the wrestling game. Look at HBK vs Hart in their 1 hour iron man match. I've watched every second of that match at least 15 times. THeres never a dull moment, and both stars are going full blast then entire time. Edge has never been through this type of match, nor the length of this type of match, usually if the match lasts over 20 mins, and theres no interferance Edge loses the match. You can't say that about Hart.

 

[Paradox]

I'm backing Hart here, because it's my honest opinion that he is the better wrestler then Edge in this format. (Yeah I know I'm going to catch some heat for that. If someone can give me some reason to back Edge then I'll back him, but so far I haven't heard it.) Let me give you my reasoning.

Hart style is built for a tournament. It's part of the reason he has won so many. He is one of the greatest technical wrestlers to ever live. His style is to wear his opponents down and make them submit. In this situation I think he will be able to do that as you look at what Edge has gone through.

That lead's me two my second point. Both men have had a difficult road to the finals. Though I think, and many will agree facing Austin and Taker in one night is harder then facing The Rock and Chris Jericho. Now I'm not say that Hart has had a cake walk into the finals. He did have a tough physical match with The Rock. Just as Edge had a physical match with Austin. Though in his second match he did have the easier opponent. A majority of Jericho's move set isn't power based, where The Undertaker's is.

Then the last factor that is leaning me towards Hart is his stamina. I think that this his where Hart is better then Edge hands down. Bret has won 5 different tournament. Yes he had a bye in a couple of those, but he still one the tournament. What was the saying that I heard going on? A win is a win. He won the tournament it doesn't matter how he still did it if you're using that logic. Yes, Edge has one a tournament, and went through some tough competition, he still won the tournament, and if we are going on the logic of it doesn't matter who he went through. Then it's pretty simple Hart has 5 wins to Edge's 1.

But really, I'll give Edge credit. He did win a tough tournament. By beating some big names, but. What other matches or event of match has Edge shown his stamina? I'm talking about a long match, or having more then one match in a night. He hasn't (If you have proof show me) Hart has multiple matches where his stamina has been tested, whether it being Tournament, submission matches, or Iron Man matches. In my mind he has the advantage when it comes to stamina.

With that said my vote is for Hart, show me proof that edge is better and I might change my mind.

 

[Milkyway!]

Is there no question because you say there's no question, or because you're naive enough to think because you typed it - people will just assume what you say is good enough to be the only bit of truth ever known to man?

Firstly, to say that is completely rude, NorCal has a right to his opinion. If that be his opinion. Theres was no sign of arrogance when The Norc's said his statement.

Theres only one man that I can possibly question being better than Bret Hart when it comes to all around wrestling Mr Will. His name is Killer Kowalski, but, thats NOTHING to be ashamed of for Bret Hart, because Kowalski was a god during his era. Bret is the best, and most known all around wrestler ever.

Just curious, because I'm pretty sure I could call you a liar for this statement, and you couldn't prove me wrong. You know this, right? I mean, if you can.. I invite you to do so..

Actually, he can. Show me one good quality Edge match, that Edge won, that didn't involve Hardcore bull shit, that lasts over 20 minutes, that Edge DIDN'T have interferance to win. Now now, I know I've said hardcore bullshit several times, call me old school, but I prefer wrestling when it was about wrestling, and nothing else. If there was a hardcore match, it meant the true end to the fued, and someone might die.

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

Well this is an overall held opinion by many. He could sell better than anyone I've ever seen, he could make any move he did look believable, he never really let anyone down, and has always had great matches with everyone. This is something Edge can't really say.

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

Very clever what you just did there William. Saying the same thing twice like that, I'm proud of you.

Once again, just by the people I've talked to here in my hometown, this is an overall held opinion by a lot of people. Its silly to deny the opinions of hundreds of people, if they are all saying the samething.

See above statement by me.

THREE TIMES? OMG!!! Epic.

Find me one match, where anyone legitimatly sells quite as well as Bret Hart does. Let me make your search a wee bit easier, you can't. Bret Hart revolutionized the art of selling moves. You literally thought he died, every time he took a high impact move.

Proof?

He proclaims it in his book, and by a few google searches, and wikipedia, he has never injured another superstar.

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

5 times. I'm so effing proud of you. You can copy and paste, and still almost make look original everytime you actually said something. Attaboy.

Well, seeing as how its considered one of the best matches ever by many, I'm sure Norcs is entitled to an opinionated statement, held by MANY people all around the world. The proof is, anyone with half a brain has Bret harts//Shawns Ironman match AT LEAST in their top 5 best matches ever, let alone the best.

blah, blah, blah. Wait, I take that back.. this one I'll give him. I mean, because you and I BOTH know he single handily carried 9 other Wrestlers in this match, right, right? Yeah.. honestly.. wow.

Meh, Hart carried the match an aweful lot, asuming hes talking about the match that drew a total of 8.1 on the ratings that night. Yeah, Bret carried a lot of that match on his back.

Its like you're trying to grasp straws in which to give Hart all the credit you can find. Whats next, you gonna say he was the greatest Wrestler to ever wear pink and make it look tough?

Actually, he was the only wrestler I ever took legitimately serious that wore pink.

Proof?

Uhh, really? Bret Hart was the entire show from 95-96 alone. He alone kept the WWE alive when the NWO was running wild over on WCW. Its silly to deny the fact that Bret did such things.

Video proof? I'm not looking it up, if you say it.. back it up with something I can watch.

Slyfox allready did htat.

Are you saying this because he's now in the Hall of Fame, or are you still trying to ride that whole I just blew my load on Bret Hart memories stick?

Him being in the Hall of Fame has to do with anything you just said? You baffle me here William. You baffle me here. Bret cut promos I remember from when I was 8. Now, other than my parents getting divorced, and my grandmother dieing, I don't remember much from when I was 8. They must have been legendary.

Yes, NorCal, because there is no way Edge could cut bland Face/Heel vs Face/Heel traditional old school style promo after promo. Watching Hart cut promos was like watching one and rewinding it to watch it over again. Its like the guy was reading from a book.. the same paragraph, from a book, that is.

Well actually, I highly doupt Edge's ability to cut a face promo. And as of late, I even doupt his ability to cut a heel promo. "I'm knock you right back down Hardy" Even though every fucking ladder match ever, has had that same promo.....Way to be original Edge.

And yet he's still lost bigger ones. Amazing.

Thats more than Edge can say. Without interferance, what has Edge ever won? Let me help you, nothing. When was the last time Edge won a real fued either? Let me help you, Never.

And yet he's still won bigger ones. Astounding.

Uh, I can't recall the last time Edge won a big fued. He usually always loses the big one. Hes an overrated Mark Henry.

Except for when each guy reverses that theory of yours.

Yeah, that makes a lot of since as to what you were saying here William. Seeing as how Edge hasn't won a high profile match in the past 3 years, that I can actually recall, you're denied of this whole "reversal of theorys"

Uhm, NorCal.. I respect the shit out of you. You know this, right? But your knowledge of Wrestling is pure crap

Thats bullshit.

.. I'm assuming you've never even actually watched Wrestlemania X..

Thats Bullshit, so the guy made a mistake. He was probably just going off the top of his head and clearly had a Tip-Of-The-Tounge phenominon, and just spoke out the wrong answer. People do it daily.

because if you did, you would've noticed Bret DIDN'T actually win that first "grueling" match against his less talented brother, Owen. He lost it.

Bret took one for his brother. Are you aware of how over that put Owen Hart? I wouldn't have ever considered Owen anything more than a tag team wrestler, until he beat his big brother. In which Bret could have easily said to the creative in the back "I'm not losing" and it wouldn't have happened.

So, I originally thought you said Hart was the better technical wrestler, when in fact you said "professional wrestler". My bad. I was in agreement with Hart being the better technician, but definitely no where near the better overall Professional Wrestler.

I'm waiting for the explination you give me below. I'm sure its full of blind love for Edge though.

Why? Well, thats rather easy.. allow me to explain..

\

Yay!

What Makes a Wrestler, the "better" Professional Wrestler?​

\

I've heard of a rising action, but you just made the climax dull.

The initial thing I'm sure some would say, is how much that individual can carry and lead a Company. So let's review.

Well son of a bitch, Edge carried what company when? Last I checked Edge hasn't carried crap. Sure hes in the main event, but hes never been the top dog. Simple as that.

Bret Hart: Won the Heavyweight Championship from Ric Flair in 1992, and carried the Company for four months before dropping the title to a man who later (as in minutes, later) passed it back to Hulk Hogan. What's that show you? It shows you that the Company was more or less testing Hart, and he never got even a sniff of the title until a year later.

Or maybe its because Vince has his head stuck so far up Hulk ass, it didn't matter what Hulk did, Vince was going to allow him to do it. As well as it was planned that Hulk was retiring later that year, this was more of a good bye reign, in which Hart was supposed to pick the title back up from Hogan. Now, when it came time for Hogan to lose, he wouldn't. Hart never got his rub, and never got to become the Mega star he should've been from this rub.

From this point, Hart won the title on the same night he lost to his Younger, less talented brother, and once again Carried the Company for roughly eight months. Before he dropped it to yet another aging wonder, in Bob Backlund, who passed the title off to Diesel, who proceeded to carry the Company for the next year when Hart was losing to Pirates, Ninjas and phony Kings w/ ugly Dentists.

Well, Diesel's reign was boring. Hart was still carrying the show.

Hart once again won the title, only to yet again become the transitional Champion a mere four months later in handing the title off to Shawn Michaels. What'd Hart do then? Walked away for the rest of the year, only to come back and try to once again be a leader.

He walked away? I always thought he had a small injury or something. Now, Edge, walked away.....Edge walked away for 8 months 2 years ago, because he was cracking under the stress. Silly William. Pot meet kettle, Kettle be black? Pot be too! That truely makes your arguement irrelivant even if Hart did walk away.

By this point, Hart had successfully carried the Company for a collective full year. (this is of course pointing out that by Hart carrying the Company - I mean Main Eventing, which back then is what the Champion always did)

More than Edge has ever done.

So, in 1997 Hart had his arguable best year. He lost the Rumble, but should've won. (should've, could've, would've - didn't, though, did he) He did win against Austin at Mania, but proceeded to lose the overall war to him in the end. He got put in a wheelchair (like Vickie) for about 2-3 months, then came back to fall back into another title reign, thanks to Shawn Michaels. (but hey, a win is a win and I'll give him that) At this point, Hart as the Champion wasn't even the main focus anymore - being over-shadowed by the Undertaker and H.B.K. And finally, Hart wrapped up his arguable best year ever by refusing to job to Shawn Michaels, and still losing in the worst possible way, anyways. Nice.

Yes, you marked the screw job, in which Hart should've won. But got SCREWED out of the title. As well as during this year, he created Stone Cold Steve Austin, giving him his massive rub to become the Mega Star he truely become.

Bret Hart: 7 time Heavyweight Champion, 4 time United States Champion, 3 time Tag Team Champion, 2 time Intercontinental Champion, one (untelevised) KOTR victory, and the official first-ever recognized KOTR victory. And finally, 1 Royal Rumble victory.

Nice.. now..

Edge: 9 time Heavyweight Champion, 14 time Tag Team Champion, 5 time Intercontinental Champion, 1 time United States Champion, 2 time MITB winner, and 1 KOTR victory.

Divide Edge's achievements by half now. Why you ask? Because theres two of everything. 3 World Titles, 2 World tag title, and will yeah, Intercontinental///US championships don't even matter for Edge, because during his reigns the belt meant nothing. When Hart held those titles, they were everything. You can't really count the MITB, because Hart never had the chance to win that.

With the exception of the Royal Rumble, and also excluding the fact Edge has won another very impressive tournament - I'd say Edge's victories out-weigh anything Hart's ever accomplished.

Then you're dellusional. Your blind love for Edge is clear here. Hart has done more in his life, than Edge ever imagined. Edge may have a lot of championshit gold, but he likes to play Hot Potato, a game at which I was playing when I was 4.

Oh, by the way.. your opinion of Hart being the better Tag team Wrestler - is vastly scoffed at. 2 times, to 14 times.. yeah, Hart's wayyyy better, rightttt...

Obviously, Hart never played hot potato with tag team gold. Edge is in a time period in which Championship gold is thrown around, and means shit to everyone. Hart is from a time period in which gold meant everything, and was held onto for a very long time. Its like comparing HHH to Ric Flair, inevitably HHH will hold the title 17 times, but Flair has well over 3000+ days as a World Heavyweight Champion, HHH doesn't even have 1500 yet last I checked.

 

[CH David]

Ok so this is a really difficult choice to make. I do like Edge and Bret Hart a lot. But in this case I would have to say that Bret edges (pun intended) Edge in this matchup.

Bret has had classic and huge profile one on one matches that a hell of a lot of people remember, both as a heel and as a face. Austin vs. Hart at Wrestlemania had that huge double turn and Hart was an awesome heel. He has also feuded with the likes of HBK, Undertaker, and Owen just to name a few.

Edge's best singles feuds are most likely with John Cena, Undertaker, and Matt Hardy from 05. Oh and the one with Kurt Angle when Edge was a face, that one is always a classic for me.

But to me it seems that even though Edge is the Ultimate Opportunist, he may try getting a little too cute and cocky, and try to apply the Edgecator (Sharpshooter), in which case I could see Bret counter out of this, which he has done before. Bret would punish you in the ring, and make you tap. Edge would try to strike you in one move and get you down and out.

Of the two, Bret really is the better draw internationally, I don't believe those figures can stack with Edge. He was also the better technical wrestler, I know, technical wrestling doesn't win it for him, but it doesn't hurt him. He has feuded with legends of the business, and held the title when there wasn't 9 for a company. If Edge could win the majority of his matches without interference from anyone, I may be more inclined to go his way, but it hasn't happened lately.

My vote is for Bret Hart, but only slightly, and I don't want to get into kayfabe because there are too many what ifs.

Vote Hart

 

[D-Man]

Man, this is a rough one. But, then again, all tournament finals should be rough decisions, otherwise its competitors shouldn't be there.

So, IrishCanadian got his wet dream wish, and two born-and-bred Canadians have made it to the finals. The more I look at the matchup, the more I don't give a shit about whether they both deserve to be here. All of that banter has now become irrelevant.

First off, let me say that I despise Bret Hart. He's ruined and tarnished his career by being such a crybaby for the events that occurred towards the end of his tenure in the WWE. As much as it's a shame that he's not an in-ring performer anymore, he makes it very difficult for me to remember why he was such a legend... but, I still remember. No matter how much he complains, I still cant take away from the fact that he is one of (if not THE) greatest competitors of all time. He has been idolized by many of today's superstars, who have molded their image in tribute of him. He fought wars in the ring and was a consistent contributor of matches that stood out at every event in which he performed. His accolades speak for themselves, and he will always be known as one of the most well-known, greatest competitors to ever set foot inside of a wrestling ring.

Edge, on the other hand, is almost a polar opposite of Bret Hart. First, he is an opposite to Edge in my mind. As much as I didn't think Edge deserved to make it this far in this tournament, I am a HUGE Edge mark. I think he is the sole reason that Smackdown is staying on the map, and his current role as tag team champion with Chris Jericho is going to resurge the tag team division. No one can take away from his in-ring ability, intensity, and his ability to be an extremely effective top heel. However, another thing that makes Edge an opposite of Bret Hart is that while the majority of Bret's matches were wars that were waged in the ring with extended time limits and won by Hart's cunning technical skill and resiliency, Edge has won the majority of his matches as a cheating heel, using outside interference as his tool of dominance.

If we choose to view both competitors' primes during this contest, I think you'd all agree this is a classic face vs. heel matchup, with the ultimate babyface in Bret Hart facing the scoundrel-heel in Edge. Both men are in the final round of a tournament-style matchup, so they are banged up and exhausted. The crowd is white-hot, and both men are reaching down deep to win this prestigious award of WZ champion.

My Analysis:

I’ve read every thread posted in this round thus far and I am taking everyone’s views into consideration while making my decision here. In past tournaments (and just the way it's written in the movies) the final round is won or lost by the competitors' own skill and will to win. And, if we're looking at this tournament in a kayfabe fashion, I believe that Edge very well could have used outside interference or cheating in order to get past the first rounds of this tournament. It's almost like this tournament is being written by the WWE…

Why, you ask?

The marks favored Edge's first and second opponents in this tournament, and just when these marks thought Edge was sure to go down, he found a way to pull out victories. (Even OneBigWill has redundantly said that ‘a win is a win’, and it is a definite possibility that ‘he would use illegal tactics to win his matches.&#8217 This is exactly what makes Edge dangerous. Everyone thinks he is unable to come out on top of specific legendary figures in this tournament, but he somehow finds a way. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all of these victories by Edge were results of him using his cheating tactics to come out on top. I feel this is a fair analysis.

Now, first of all, let's stick to the path of kayfabe in this tournament for a minute. For shits and giggles, let's say we're all in agreement that it IS possible for Edge to pull out his victories this way (by cheating). Now, in the world of kayfabe, and since ANYTHING in wrestling is possible (right, Will??) when a superstar is put in the situation of a tournament final round and cheated their way through the first two, an authority figure of some sort would show up just before the bell rings. Let’s say for this particular situation that authority figure is Teddy Long. We all know that he doesn’t have much tolerance for Edge’s cheating ways, so just as it’s been done in the past, I can see Teddy Long throwing out a last-minute stipulation that all other superstars are barred from ringside. And, if Edge’s win is a result of cheating, he will automatically forfeit the match. After all, this is a kayfabe tournament and anything is possible.

So, if we put my previous paragraph into play, then Edge can rely on nothing but his in-ring ability and skill against Bret Hart in this matchup. Once again, this does not create an easy match for Bret… not by ANY means. But, many of the other Edge marks that are voting in this tournament admitted that Bret Hart’s victory percentage, in-ring skill, and technical prowess are greater than Edge’s. So, since we have now watered this match down to be as kayfabe as possible (like it should be), there’s a good chance that Edge will not pull out a win here.

Now, I refuse to cast my vote until the last day of the tournament, but right now I’ve got to lean towards Bret Hart. Everyone please, without writing book reports and losing my attention span, try to convince me otherwise.

 

[Shocky]

Since I have abstained from voting this round and am trying to remain a neutral party, I figured I would so something to keep myself amused, statistics. Since people have been bringing up title reigns and the such, I decided to look into it some more. Yes, Edge has 9 world titles to Brets 7, but Bret has held onto the belts much longer, the best way to figure this out, percentages.

Shocky, percentages, what do you mean? Well thanks for asking. Simply put, i've broken down each mans careers based on total days with the big two companies (an approximation based on the information I have found), and broken between mid card, tag, and World titles.

So for starters, Bret Hart wrestled from August 1984 - Late 2000 (I used August 1st, and December 31st as I couldn't find dates he was under contract) Bret wrestled in this scenario for a total of 5996 days in the big two. Edge began his WWE run on June 30th, 1998, to the current day, for a total thus far of 4019.

Breaking down the Mid Card.
Bret Hart: Bret Hart was a 2 time Intercontinental Champion, along with being a 4 time United States Champion. His total combined length of Mid Card title holder is 471 Days.
Edge: Edge is a 5 time Intercontinetal Champion, and a 1 time United States Champion, for a total Mid Card Length of 177 days.

Breaking down the Tag Titles;
Bret Hart: Bret Hart was a former 2 time World Tag Team Champion, and a former 1 time WCW Tag Champion, for a total tag team length of 484 days.
Edge: Edge is tougher to do, and keep in mind, I'm including the Unified titles as separate championships. Edge is a 12 time World Tag Team Champion, and a 2 Time WWE Tag Team Champion, for a total of 375 days and counting.

Breaking down the World Championships:
Bret Hart: Bret Hart was a former 5 time WWE Champion, and a 2 time WCW Champion, for a total length of 710 days as champion
Edge; Edge is a former 4 time WWE Champion and a 5 time World Heavyweight Champion, for a total of 434 days as Champion.


Looking further into the numbers (Percentages).

So to look at the Percentages:
Time Spent as Mid Card Champion.
Bret: Hart spent a total of 7.9% of his career as a mid card champion, and was a mid card champion for 28.3% of the time he held a belt.
Edge: Edge has spent a total of 4.4% of his career as a mid card champion, and was a mid card champion for 18% of the time he has held gold.

Time Spent as Tag Champion
Bret: Hart has spent a total of 8.0% of his career as a tag champion, and was a tag champion for 29.1% of the time he held a belt.
Edge: Edge spent a total (and counting) of 9.3% of his career as a tag champion, and thus far, was a tag champion for 38% of the time he has held gold.

Time Spent as World Champion:
Bret: Hart spent a total of 11.8% of his career as a world champion, and was a world champion for 42.6% of the time he held a belt.
Edge: Edge has spent a total of 10.8% of his career as a world champion, and thus far, has been a world champion 44.0% of the time he has held a belt.


So in the end, Bret Hart was a champion for 1665 out of 5996 approximate days spent in the big two, good enough for 27.8% of his career spent as a champion of some kind.

Edge has been champion for 986 out of the 4019 days he has worked in the WWE, good enough for 24.5% of his career spent as a champion.


Again, I'm bored, and remaining a neutral force because of my voice, so do with it, or ignore it, as you will.

 

[Slyfox696]

A bunch of fucking cowards.

Edge has 43 votes as of right now, and yet most of you don't have the guts to justify your vote. Why? Because you know you're wrong. There's only been a couple who have tried to justify Edge, and their posts have been exposed for the jokes they are.

Hell, most of you people who have voted for Edge I don't even recognize (hello joker76, 1C3-M4N). And the ones I do recognize, are piss bucket posters (yes, I'm looking at you NextVinceRusso, GeneralDissaray, and HHH-Hogan Effect).

On what grounds can you vote for Edge? He's not even in the Top 5 in drawing in the WWE (Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, HBK, Batista, Rey, etc.), his title wins happen when the title is passed around over 50 times in three years, and he's a piss bucket in-ring worker.

Compare that to Bret who was THE man in the WWF during his big run, who went from beloved babyface to hated heel (except in every country other than the US in which he only became a bigger face). He was a big part of the WWE expanding to different countries overseas during the years where wrestling was reeling from a steroids scandal, and he was a far superior in-ring worker.

People who vote for Edge understand NOTHING about wrestling, and are only voting because they're either Hart haters, or just clueless wrestling fans.


So, which are you? Are you a Hart hater or just clueless? Post in this thread, and I'll be more than happy to identify for you. Either way, quit being a coward and actually try to defend your position.

 

[Mr. TM]

I think that is a determining force in this now. The Bret Hart hate. You may hate some wrestlers, but I think some people hate Bret Hart, the wrestler and even the person, and thus refuse to vote against him. Some of those people might be big Shawn Michaels fans, some of those people may be hating on him since his time as part of an anti-American group, and some might hate him for his "bitching". The funny thing is, his bitching was hugely part of his character, that was so good, people had such a hard time separating what was a character and was his real life.

Bret Hart's heel character caused more people to buy into it then almost any other character ever. He did it in a time when Keyfabe had began to die. Edge doesn't have it, I think of Edge, and I think of a guy who wrestles, but goes home and loves his wife at the end of the day... or the life of another wrestler. When I think of Bret Hart, despite knowing so much about him, I still think of his tremendous characters. Bret Hart did what wrestlers should do. Make you believe in their character.

So vote Bret Hart.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm made little secret that I'm not a fan of Bret Hart. He's just not someone I could get behind. I actually quite like Edge and have for a long time, but there is no way to justify voting Edge over Hart. Hart started to get noticed during some of the best years of wrestling. His match with Savage on SNME was just fucking sweet to watch and had amazing psychology in it. Edge is indeed a big star, but he's a big star in a period that's nowhere near as big. Hart is a wrestling machine. Edge wins most of his gimmick matches. Hart drew insane heat. Edge draws decent heat. Hart was one of the two main players in Montreal. Edge.....isn't really contraversial. I have yet to see a single reason to vote Edge over Hart, and I'm not going to see one.

 

[Fizzy]

After going back I was going to vote Edge because frankly I hadn't watched Hart wrestle in quite a long time. I went back I said Fizzy maybe you should do some research. I went and watched Bret's matches, such as the ironman match, him vs Yoko, and frankly most of the matches I watched were 5 star matches. He carried Yoko to a great match(which let's be honest is a feat in it's own), and he has had more 5 star matches then most other wrestlers.

Hart may not be as strong as Lesnar, he may not have been as sadistic as Raven, but he was sure smarter then every wrestler Edge has faced during his prime. He would have scouted the spear, and not be an idiot when hes on the ground for 5 minutes without Edge attacking him he will know what's coming and roll outta the ring. Hart can counter the sharpshooter off Edge much easier then Edge can counter Hart's, I don't even think that's a question, and Hart's just a better all around wrestler. Promo wise, maybe and that's a HUGE maybe Edge get's it, but practically everything else goes to Hart. I have seen no reasons Edge should win. I'm not a huge Hart fan, but I am smart enough to see he beats Edge.

 

[gd]

So, which are you? Are you a Hart hater or just clueless? Post in this thread, and I'll be more than happy to identify for you. Either way, quit being a coward and actually try to defend your position.

Well Sly, I have posted in this thread and in my mind have justified voting for Edge. I don't know if I've convinced any others but I feel that my vote went to the right man.

First of all, Edge just entertains me a hell of a lot more than Hart ever did. Edge is one of my top 5 favorite wrestlers and I was never a huge fan of the Hitman. Sure he's had some really good matches, but for some reason he didn't do much for me.

Last summer, Edge was pretty much the only reason I watched Smackdown. He completely carried the brand during Undertaker's abscense. Some of his promos, especially the one with Foley, were incredible. He has also been known to have some great matches of his own, especially those with Cena, Undertaker, and more recently CM Punk and Jeff Hardy.

As for the kayfabe argument, I think that the 2 are pretty evenly matched. Both have won their fair share of championships and have made big impacts on the main event scene. It's not like Edge was a complete jobber who would have no chance against Hart like some have suggested. Hart has had his fair share of losses throughout his carrer and I'm sure Edge would find some way to win a match against him.

It's very close, but in my opinion Edge is a better pro wrestler than Hart and I feel completely justified voting for him in this match.

 

[Skillz]

So far, 29 people have posted in this thread, giving their reasons why they are supporting either Hart or Edge. Out of those 29 people, 22 of them have been for Hart, and 7 for Edge. That's 76% of the people who have posted in this thread.

So how the fuck is Hart is only winning by 2 votes? Fucking ridiculous. This is just proof that Edge has so many blind fanboys, who know absolutely fuck all to do with wrestling. There is not one single reason to vote for Edge, not even one.

Don't be dumb, vote intelligently. Vote for Hart.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well Sly, I have posted in this thread and in my mind have justified voting for Edge. I don't know if I've convinced any others but I feel that my vote went to the right man.

Then it was a terrible post because I don't remember it. Going back to read it now...


...yup, terrible post.

First of all, Edge just entertains me a hell of a lot more than Hart ever did. Edge is one of my top 5 favorite wrestlers

Then he's not doing his job, because his job is to make you hate him, not like him. Mark against Edge.

and I was never a huge fan of the Hitman. Sure he's had some really good matches, but for some reason he didn't do much for me.

Who cares? He is still clearly the superior wrestler.

Last summer, Edge was pretty much the only reason I watched Smackdown. He completely carried the brand during Undertaker's abscense.

And yet, Triple H was the World Champion. Edge carried the brand? Not a fucking chance. Edge only won the title because Trips was ready to go back to Raw.

He has also been known to have some great matches of his own, especially those with Cena, Undertaker, and more recently CM Punk and Jeff Hardy.

He has? Please tell me all of these great matches Edge has had in which a gimmick wasn't in play.

You can't. Edge is a gimmick wrestler, because he sucks. He can use weapons and take big bumps, but the guy is average in the ring otherwise. As opposed to Hart who could work with all different styles of workers, whether it was a gimmick match or not. For examples, look at his matches vs. Owen at WM 10 and Summerslam '94, and vs. Austin at Survivor Series '96 and WM 13. Four incredibly good matches, in which you had a classic 1-on-1 bout and a gimmick match.

Show me where Edge can say that.

As for the kayfabe argument, I think that the 2 are pretty evenly matched. Both have won their fair share of championships and have made big impacts on the main event scene. It's not like Edge was a complete jobber who would have no chance against Hart like some have suggested.

If there was only 1 World title, here would be the list of guys in line to win it:

1. Cena
2. Triple H
3. Undertaker
4. Randy Orton
5. Batista

Edge isn't even in the Top 5.

Hart has had his fair share of losses throughout his carrer and I'm sure Edge would find some way to win a match against him.

As has Edge. The difference is that Hart was THE top guy in the WWF. Edge isn't even in the Top 5.

It's very close, but in my opinion Edge is a better pro wrestler than Hart

A guy who's inferior in status, inferior in the ring, and inferior in importance is a better pro wrestler? Good logic.

and I feel completely justified voting for him in this match.

Then I'll count you in among the "clueless" wrestling fans.

 

[JenovasWitness]

Bret "the Hitman" Hart is the correct choice as the winner of this match. He is the quintessential professional wrestler. His movements are crisp, his technique is believable, he tells excellent stories in the ring, sells incredibly well, was a believable champion, was revered by his fans and fellow workers, could work both face (with thunderous cheers and applause as his reaction) or as a heel (the heat he generated in the U.S. when he was playing the Canadian Hero was WHITE WHITE WHITE hot) and had more then adequate skills on the mic. Sure, he had an off day once in a while, but everybody does. Even Edge has his moments where he sucks on the mic.

But I don't necessarily see that as a factor (the mic skills, I mean). How many guys have won a tourney by talking the guy into submission? This will be a test of in-ring action, not of grammar and delivery. So what skills does Edge bring to the table that he can use to combat the prodigious technical skills and ring savvy of the Hitman?

Edge's claim to fame is that he is the Ultimate Opportunist. He will capitalize on his opponent's unsuspecting of his use of weapons, outside interference and general under handed tactics. But I was lead to believe that this match was being officiated by a very strict enforcer who would not allow such tactics or weapons to be used, so that takes Edge's trump card out of his hands. All he has left are his wrestling skills to fall back on and, make no mistake, Edge is very good...but he is not Bret Hart.

Bret will come to the ring fully prepared. His opponent will be well scouted. Hart will use his technical know-how and endurance to stymie and weather whatever attack that Edge can muster, counter him and lock in the Sharpshooter. Edge will cry and the better man, the Hit Man, will win.

 

[gd]

Then he's not doing his job, because his job is to make you hate him, not like him. Mark against Edge.

Whether a wrestler is a heel or a face their main job is to entertain the viewer. Edge has entertained me more than Hart.

And yet, Triple H was the World Champion. Edge carried the brand? Not a fucking chance. Edge only won the title because Trips was ready to go back to Raw.

Edge definelty carried the brand during that time, no doubt about it. Even though he wasn't champion the main event of nearly every Smackdown focused on Edge. Edge was actually entertaining and worth watching while HHH was just holding the belt in a meaninless feud with Khali. Edge was the one who main evented Summerslam, not the champ HHH.

You can't. Edge is a gimmick wrestler, because he sucks. He can use weapons and take big bumps, but the guy is average in the ring otherwise. As opposed to Hart who could work with all different styles of workers, whether it was a gimmick match or not. For examples, look at his matches vs. Owen at WM 10 and Summerslam '94, and vs. Austin at Survivor Series '96 and WM 13. Four incredibly good matches, in which you had a classic 1-on-1 bout and a gimmick match.

Sure his singles matchese weren't as great as Hart's, but his matches with Undertaker at WM 24, Cena at Summerlam '06, and his match against Eddie Guerrero on Smackdown. He's also had great tag matches like his match with Mysterio against Benoit and Angle at No Mercy '02.

In addition to this, he's had some incredible gimmick matches including his TLC with Cena at Unforgiven, Hell in a Cell with Undertaker at Summerslam, and Hardcore against Foley at WM 22. Just becase those are gimmick matches doesn't mean that aren't still great or that Edge isn't a good worker. He just happens to excel in gimmick matches while Hart excels in 1-on-1 matches.

If there was only 1 World title, here would be the list of guys in line to win it:

1. Cena
2. Triple H
3. Undertaker
4. Randy Orton
5. Batista

Edge isn't even in the Top 5.

I think that Edge is ahead of Batista on that list and a few years from now HHH, Undertaker, and Batista will be gone and Edge will surely be top 5, most likely top 3.

As has Edge. The difference is that Hart was THE top guy in the WWF. Edge isn't even in the Top 5.

If Edge was in the WWF during the same time as Hart he would have arguably been the top guy as well. In the WWE today, Hart also be behind the like of Cena, HHH, Undertaker, and Orton.

A guy who's inferior in status,

9 time World Champion. Argue about the brand split all you want, that's still damn impressive.

inferior in the ring

Maybe in singles matches but Edge is definetly better in gimmick matches. It's all about preference really.

, and inferior in importance is a better pro wrestler?

Considering been in the main event for years and will be there fore years to come I would consider him important.

Then I'll count you in among the "clueless" wrestling fans.

Just because I prefer one wrestler over another doesn't make me clueless, that's my opinion and I feel completely justified.

 

[Mr. TM]

Wow, arguing that a man will be the top guy, once the main stars leaves is your argument? Saying a man is good at spot fest matches? Saying Wrestlemania 24 is as good as Bret's best matches?

Clueless.

And silly.

I really wish that I could call up Edge right now. In fact, I might. He lives in Canada, won't be too hard to find him. How many Edge's are in the phone book?

If Bret Hart's clinics don't catch your interest, and Edge having live sex does, maybe you should stick to porn, and leave the greasy men touching each other for other people.