Wrestlezone Tournament Finals: Bret Hart vs. Edge

[Uncle Sam]

So, you really need me to reexplain the whole "Ultimate Opportunity" aspect for you again? Did Edge ask Shane to interfere? No. Did Edge take advantage of the issue? Yes.

So Edge can just use his signature move of "Shane McMahon Interference" to defeat Hart? Makes sense.

You seem to be missing the point. You were all, "Oh, look at this - Edge defeated Kurt Angle and Bret Hart never beat anyone like that" when, in fact, his win had absolutely no legitimacy and was no indication of Edge's quality as a wrestler. Furthermore, it didn't even occur in his prime.

Irrelevant to this match, unless you're trying to point out that Edge was the ONLY individual to which defeated Angle on that night.

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this? Are you saying that Edge was the only individual that defeated Kurt Angle on the night. Yeah, he was. My point was that Kurt was so unscathed from it that he still had enough energy to compete in a brutal street fight later that night.

Again, the match was no indicator of Edge's quality, it was just Edge getting lucky. To bring it up as proof that Edge is better than Bret Hart is just silly.

By the way, I get that you piece on my posts like a chocolate cake, one delicious bite at a time.. but way to entirely overlook every other great opinion I just laid down, Samuel.

Word fort. It would take hours for me to penetrate.

Edit: Lol, penetrate.

 

[ErictheEnt]

Will, your write-up on Edge beating Hart is the funniest thing I've ever seen. He's going to take out "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, The Undertaker AND THEN Bret Hart in the same night? If Edge has enough energy to even walk out to the ring and fall on top of (and pin) a Bret Hart that has been shot and left in the ring would be impressive.

In real life, that shit ain't happening. In this tourny? I'm sure if Edge was wrestling God you'd have a paper on why he'd win.

"God has never done this, God has never done that, Edge has!"

I admire your dedication to Edge, but it's pretty sad too ... and not to mention, Jar Jar Binks annoying.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Will, your write-up on Edge beating Hart is the funniest thing I've ever seen. He's going to take out "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, The Undertaker AND THEN Bret Hart in the same night? If Edge has enough energy to even walk out to the ring and fall on top of (and pin) a Bret Hart that has been shot and left in the ring would be impressive.

Okay, so you want to go based off the individuals he's defeated. Sure, we can do that. Because this is an imaginary tournament, and you decided you want to claim Edge wouldn't even have the energy left to walk.. I assume you're half-assing this stamina level off the amount of votes each Superstar has received, right?

Otherwise, your entire argument is just that Edge can't wrestle two guys that have made their own set of impacts in the business, and then wrestle a third. Which is somewhat naive, considering in the Wrestling business, in situations like this - regardless how tired the performer is, he still goes out and competes in a scripted match, that has little to no barring on his stamina levels.

SO, back to the stamina through voting process.

Edge/Austin.. Edge won by 11 votes. Hart/Rock.. Hart won by 3 votes. (Advantage, Edge)

Edge/Undertaker.. Edge won by 8 votes. Hart/Jericho.. Hart won by 1 vote, from what Irish said, in the last minute.
(Advantage, Edge)

So, either you're selfishly trying to use stamina against Edge and not Hart, or you're trying to one-sidedly make people believe Edge would lose, all because he faced bigger names than Hart. (which oddly enough, makes Edge look even better, to say he's beaten a better list of individuals to come this far, wouldn't you say)

In real life, that shit ain't happening. In this tourny? I'm sure if Edge was wrestling God you'd have a paper on why he'd win.

"God has never done this, God has never done that, Edge has!"

I admire your dedication to Edge, but it's pretty sad too ... and not to mention, Jar Jar Binks annoying.

The rest of this is pure trash. Honestly and without even a second's notice to be nice to you. I get that you wanna follow the leader, come in here, run your mouth off to me like you have even the slightest clue what you're talking about.. but this is embarrassing, not just for me, but on you.

I'm sure you're a good poster, so could you at least have the respect you should have, and act like it? Instead of spouting off at the head about how I'd debate Edge beating God, or even bringing God into this, as a matter of fact - which I even find offensive, mind you.

In the end, Eric.. nothing here is sad, except for your attempt to be "kewl".

 

[Phoenix]

Yes, Bret SHOULD beat Edge.

Then again, the Undertaker SHOULD be in this match about to drop Bret on his head but it's not happening. So ... what do you expect? Undertaker has beaten both of them (Bret and Edge) almost every time he's wrestled them.

Don't bring in the whole "Undertaker should be here" rubbish, fact is, he isn't. You easily argue that Jericho should be in the final, who only lost by one vote to Hart. Saying that "Undertaker has beaten both of them almost every time he's wrestled them" is not a thoroughly thought out line, yes Undertaker has beaten both of them but both of them have beaten the Undertaker. You win some, you lose some, simple.

But fact is Taker is not in the final, Edge is, and if your vote is Hart is more to be about a vote to avenge the Undertaker, that is pretty low. Very much the same tactics being applied from the Taker/Edge semi here, just remember it didn't work for Austin. Vote for who is more deserving rather than "because he shouldn't be there", I could easily fight the case that Hart shouldn't be in the final, much like you think Edge shouldn't be there!

 

[Shock]

I'll probably be making a larger post later, but there's a few points I want to cover now.

ErictheEnt, you've basically stated the same thing in all three of your posts, that Edge sucks and Undertaker should be here. We fucking get it. Now go get an actual argument or leave. Not at any point did Will state that Edge was superhuman or better than God. Will stated good facts that could very well put him over Bret Hart. Just because you're too lazy to read his post doesn't mean you can say things you know nothing about.

Becca, you said you can't think of a reason Bret shouldn't win here, as did other people. Read Will's post. Also, anyone who thinks Hart has better mic skills is wrong. Just a sidenote there.

To everyone who uses the old line "eDge cheats in ALL his matchs! He cant win a nomral mach!". No. Wrong. Listen here, because I'm only going to use this question once.

If Edge cheats in all his matches, what's to stop him from doing it again?!

In almost any era, and certainly wherever you consider his prime (which is debatable), Edge had someone backstage. Whether it was Shane O' Mac, Christian, Lita, Chavo Guerrero, you name it. Now I'm not saying it would happen, but I'm just saying that all of you say he can't win a match because he cheats, you're wrong. Anything can happen in an Edge match. And if he can seize opportunity and win nine, count 'em, nine world titles, what's causing him to not capitalize on an opportunity from interference or a screw-up and win this match? Nothing.

Now one last thing. Sure, Edge will be tired from facing Lesnar and Austin, but Hart will sure damn be tired after facing The Rock and Chris Jericho. As Will stated, Edge won by more than Hart one in both of his matches, meaning he is not as tired. Just because Bret Hart is the so-called "greatest wrestler of all time" (which I don't believe he is and knows people just say that because he had that kind of run) doesn't mean he doesn't tire out. So anyone who says that is sadly mistaken.

Please, people. I beg of you. Take what Will and I have said and put into your decision. Vote the right choice. Vote the Rated R Superstar. Vote The Ultimate Opportunist.

Vote Edge!​

 

[Uncle Sam]

If Edge cheats in all his matches, what's to stop him from doing it again?!

Nothing. Unfortunately, he loses two thirds of his matches. Y'know, those matches that he always cheats in. Then again, I know people don't vote for Edge with consideration for that whole pesky "logic" thing.

 

[gd]

Wow, I leave for a week and Edge beats Undertaker? I'm shocked. However, I'm not going to hold that against him becuase it doesn't matter how he got here, all that matters is that he's here. I also think Jericho should've beaten Hart, but we're left with one hell of a match nontheless.

Now Bret Hart was a very good wrestler, but personally I wouldn't consider him great. As stated before, he was a main eventer during a watered down era and I honestly don't think that he would have anything close to that success today. For those of you who read Bill Simmons, I'd liken Hart to "Terminator 3." He was the top guy because there were no other choices. Don't get me wrong, he'd be successful in today's WWE, but I don't think he'd be a main eventer.

Edge on the other had has been a bonafide main eventer for a few years now. He's headlined Wrestlemania and beaten many of the biggest stars in the WWE today while becoming a 9 time champion, which is 2 more than Hart in a shorter period of time. I don't want to hear the 2 world titles argument either because it isn't that legitimate. Sure WWE has 2 world titles today, but it also has twice as many wrestlers. I consider Edge's titles on the same level, maybe even a higher level, than Hart's.

Lastly, this is a match that Edge would find a way to win, I have no doubt. He's already beaten Austin and Undertaker, who are just as good as if not better than Hart, so why wouldn't he be able to finish off what he started. Sure Hart has won tournaments, but so has Edge. It's a wash. In the end Edge would beat Hart in this match more often than not.

You can talk about how smart Hart is as much as you want, but Edge will eventually hit a Spear or maybe even an Edgecution after some dirty tatics. Of course after he hits the Spear he'll grab a handful of tights to make the cover. Edge wins because he's the better man.

Vote Edge!

 

[Skillz]

Within each Superstar’s career, they’ve both won and lost major Tournaments.

So, first you say that Hart has won and lost major tournaments...

As for the 3 he’s lost, 2 were the Kuwaiti Cup 1996-1997,

And then you go on to talk about some unknown tournament called the Kuwaiti Cup, that Hart didn't win. How the fuck is that a major tournament? When the eventual winners of a tournament are Ahmed Johnson and Tiger Ali Singh, you know it's meaningless.

I’ve come across what I’m sure will become an ever growing tireless argument that Bret Hart is suppose to be better, because he’s one of the greatest technical Superstars to ever Wrestle in the history of the Sport. Right? Sure, whatever.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking Hart’s technical ability. He is without a shadow of a doubt better than Edge as far as technical wrestling goes. Yes, you read that right. But let’s not kid ourselves here. Just because you’re better at being a technical wrestler doesn’t mean shit in the world of scripted Professional Wrestling, now does it?

People aren't saying "Hart's a better technical wrestler, so he should win", that would be an idiotic statement. What people are saying is that he's a better professional wrestler, so he should win. Big difference.

In fact, in your entire post, you don't talk about ANYTHING to do with Edge being a better professional wrestler than Hart. Is that because you know Hart is better? Probably.

All you do is go into kayfabe reasons why Edge could beat Hart. "Edge beat "x" who is similar to Hart, Hart lost to "y" who cheated to win, so Edge will beat Hart". "Edge can counter this move, Edge can do this move, Edge can take a chair shot, Edge is more passionate...". These are all ridiculous arguments. I understand some kayfabe must be brought into this, but isn't this a tournament, more than anything else, to decide who the best professional wrestler ever is? Because if it is, how can anyone not vote for Hart over Edge?

A simple fact: In singles matches on ppv (triple threats, fatal four-ways, MitB, etc included) Edge has a 33-27 record, which is 55%. Hart has a 30-15 record, which is 67%. So, who wins more?

 

[LigerBomb]

Wow, I leave for a week and Edge loses to Undertaker?

What?

I'm shocked. However, I'm not going to hold that against him becuase it doesn't matter how he got here, all that matters is that he's here. I also think Jericho should've beaten Hart, but we're left with one hell of a match nontheless.

Now Bret Hart was a very good wrestler, but personally I wouldn't consider him great.

OK, so you personally don't consider him great... what does your personal feelings have to do with Hart's abilities, and how they manifest in a match against Edge?
Also, and this goes for anyone and everyone who thinks Hart was only great because "he said he was great".... Bret said he was great, Announcers said he was great, other wrestlers of various eras said he was great, his bosses said he was great, the fans of his and other eras said he was great, his lasting legacy said he was great. How many people have to say something before you're convinced? Who has to say it? Ultimately if it only has to do with your opinion that's fine but make no mistake that just because you don't think he's great it doesn't mean the general consensus of practically everyone involved in almost every aspect of the sport is wrong.

As stated before, he was a main eventer during a watered down era and I honestly don't think that he would have anything close to that success today. For those of you who read Bill Simmons, I'd liken Hart to "Terminator 3." He was the top guy because there were no other choices.

If anything all it does is prove that Hart did more with less. Edge never carried a damn thing. Austin, Rock, and Cena have carried the WWE during Edge's career. He's definitely lent a helping hand but never carried WWE or kept the company afloat when there was arguably better and bigger competition in WCW like Bret did.

Don't get me wrong, he'd be successful in today's WWE, but I don't think he'd be a main eventer.

Hart's skill and abilities would be a benefit in any era. Hart proved he was the go to guy in an era where giants were the main stay, you really think he couldn't succeed in an era where guys like Jericho, Benoit, Michaels, Angle etc etc have found success? Hell, one could easily make the case that Bret (n Shawn) paved the way for WWF/E to give relatively "smaller" (tho Bret was 6'1 235 lbs) guys a chance. Bret would do well today because he practically made today possible.

Edge on the other had has been a bonafide main eventer for a few years now. He's headlined Wrestlemania and beaten many of the biggest stars in the WWE today while becoming a 9 time champion, which is 2 more than Hart in a shorter period of time. I don't want to hear the 2 world titles argument either because it isn't that legitimate. Sure WWE has 2 world titles today, but it also has twice as many wrestlers. I consider Edge's titles on the same level, maybe even a higher level, than Hart's.

I don't care if you don't want to hear it but it's a valid argument. And while it could be argued that there are more wrestlers how many are actually main event/championship material. How many YEARS have we seen the same handful of guys in the title picture on both brands? While it's true there are more "wrestlers" the majority will never touch the belt, and don't factor into you reasoning. By the way, good job taking about the NUMBER of title reins and not mentioning the duration, which proves how good someone is at KEEPING the belt/staying the best...

Lastly, this is a match that Edge would find a way to win, I have no doubt.

I doubt it, so we cancel each other out

He's already beaten Austin and Undertaker, who are just as good as if not better than Hart, so why wouldn't he be able to finish off what he started.

Um, you do know he won because people voted that he won, not because he actually did, in fact, beat SCSA and 'Taker consecutively...

Sure Hart has won tournaments, but so has Edge. It's a wash.

Hart's has won more tourneys and as another poster mentioned more matches in general so it's not "a wash"...

In the end Edge would beat Hart in this match more often than not.

You may think so but you haven't proven it at all

You can talk about how smart Hart is as much as you want, but Edge will eventually hit a Spear or maybe even an Edgecution after some dirty tatics. Of course after he hits the Spear he'll grab a handful of tights to make the cover. Edge wins because he's the better man.

And you can talk about how much of an "ultimate opportunist" Edge is all you want but Bret will easily lock on a Sharpshooter or reverse a hold after some phenomenal wrestling. Of course after he locks on the Sharpshooter he'll force a tap out out of Edge. The Hitman wins because he's not just the better man but better professional wrestler.

Vote Edge!

Or.... vote Hitman

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

The fact that Edge even made it this far is a testament to the fact that evidently there is a God and miracles do happen.

He's inched past Brock.

He SOMEHOW adjusted the laws of physics to beat the Undertaker.

No more weaseling. Edge must have every single body part known to man in severe agony. I'm not Hitman mark, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I think he's very over-rated. But let's face reality. The Sharpshooter is one of the nastiest submissions ever to grace the WWE ring. Broke down Edge is now at the mercy of Bret's finisher. Edge has fallen numberous times to both Angle and Benoit's submissions. There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that he could resist the Sharpshooter at 100%, let alone after all this.

Bret locks in the Sharpshooter. Call the fat lady, she's on in 5.

 

[Big Sexy]

Now one last thing. Sure, Edge will be tired from facing Lesnar and Austin, but Hart will sure damn be tired after facing The Rock and Chris Jericho. As Will stated, Edge won by more than Hart one in both of his matches, meaning he is not as tired. Just because Bret Hart is the so-called "greatest wrestler of all time" (which I don't believe he is and knows people just say that because he had that kind of run) doesn't mean he doesn't tire out. So anyone who says that is sadly mistaken.

All you have to do is go back one more round and add the up the vote differential from the last three matches to see that Hart has one by more votes then Edge in those matches. The stamina thing doesn't mean that much to me anyways. Both guys have been through a lot in this tournament and both guys are more then capable of dealing with it.

To me Bret Hart is just better then Edge in every way. He's a better wrestler, better performer, he doesn't need a gimmick match to have a good performance. For every great non-gimmick match that Edge has had (which there are very few of) Bret Hart has had two or three. I also see Bret as being the more successful of the two superstars. I really don't want to hear about Edges 9 title reigns because these guys were in their primes at two completely different times. Titles change hands at a much more rapid pace then they used to. Not only that but there are now two world titles instead of just one. Bret Hart was THE top guy in the WWE from 1993- 1996. Edge has never been that guy. He is a great superstar and a tremendous heel, but he has never been the main guy.

When it comes to the actual match, most of Edge's high profile victories have come in either gimmick matches or in triple threat matches. In those types of matches it is a lot easier for him to be the "Ultimate Opportunist" that he is. I'm not saying that he couldn't have some sort of outside interference in this match, but it's not as easy to pull it off in a normal one on one match.

I'm voting for Bret Hart for the simple fact that I think he is better. Edge is great, but he loses here.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Regardless of all the complaints and disbelief regarding Edge getting past three exceptionally tough opponents, he's here in the finals.

Edge vs. Bret Hart...hmmm it's a tough call in my book. On one hand, Edge is someone that constantly gets ragged on these boards for one reason or another, some of it undeserved. Bret Hart, on the other hand, is frequently heaped with praise and admiration, although I do think the guy is a little overrated. Not to say that Hart wasn't a great in-ring competitor, but I don't remember the guy being as good as some have touted him to be.

Both guys have accomplished a lot, I'm not going to piss and moan about who was a better world champion or who was a champion when whatever belt was more prestigious or any of that shit. They've got 16 world championships between them and that in and of itself says a lot about the both of them. In terms of overall athletic ability, I'd say the two of them are about equal. Bret is the overall better wrestler, Edge is the more cunning of the two. Both have moves and offense that are fully capable of putting the other away. I expect Bret Hart to win because there are just so many on here that hate Edge, though I do think Edge could beat Bret Hart and wouldn't be surprised if he did manage to pull one final upset in the tourney.

Ultimately, I'm giving my vote to Edge simply because I find him to be much more entertaining to watch in the ring and listen to on the mic.

 

[Shock]

All you have to do is go back one more round and add the up the vote differential from the last three matches to see that Hart has one by more votes then Edge in those matches.

Yeah, but, umm... that one more round back doesn't matter, hotshot. It wasn't in the tourney.

The stamina thing doesn't mean that much to me anyways.

Does it matter what it means to you? It's in place. Deal with it.

Titles change hands at a much more rapid pace then they used to.

I'll give you that.

Bret Hart was THE top guy in the WWE from 1993- 1996. Edge has never been that guy. He is a great superstar and a tremendous heel, but he has never been the main guy.

Are you fucking kidding me? It's not that he wasn't the top guy, it's that he was never top face. People need to understand this, because a lot of people don't. Until a few weeks ago, Edge was in main events and main event storylines constantly for years. All the time. Don't tell me he's never been huge, because he was the top heel in the company for a long time.

I'm voting for Bret Hart for the simple fact that I think he is better.

As LigerBomb said to Disarry, what do your personal feelings matter? It's about skill, stamina, and capitalization.

Vote Edge.

 

[Mr. TM]

Just some tidbits to throw out there.

If Edge was at his height, it was probably 2007. He was voted the PWI's second best wrestler on Earth.

Has not finished #1 yet.

Has Bret?

Yes.

twice.

Over Hulk Hogan.

PWI gives their vote to Bret Hart. Some people disagree with PWI's rankings. But it is obvious that they hold weight keyfabe. If PWI says Bret is a two time #1 key fabe, then I give them that.

So should you.

 

[Big Sexy]

Yeah, but, umm... that one more round back doesn't matter, hotshot. It wasn't in the tourney.

Just because it wasn't part of the rounds that all took place in one night, doesn't mean it wasn't part of the tournament. Unless the previous rounds took place months before this night then the effects of those matches would still be felt.

Does it matter what it means to you? It's in place. Deal with it.

Considering the fact I have a vote, yes it does it matter what it means to me. I know it's in place, but I really don't think stamina is that big of a factor. Both guys will be tired after the matches they had.

Are you fucking kidding me? It's not that he wasn't the top guy, it's that he was never top face. People need to understand this, because a lot of people don't. Until a few weeks ago, Edge was in main events and main event storylines constantly for years. All the time. Don't tell me he's never been huge, because he was the top heel in the company for a long time.

I don't care if Edge is a face or heel. He has never been the top guy in the company. I never said he wasn't a big deal or that he wasn't a main eventer, but Bret Hart was the best of the best in the WWE for a 3 year span. Edge can't say that.

As LigerBomb said to Disarry, what do your personal feelings matter?

Once again I have a vote so they do matter.

It's about skill, stamina, and capitalization.

Oh well if that's the case....... I'm still voting for Bret Hart.

 

[Tastycles]

Hmmm, so it's come to the final. In most rounds I have picked who I want to win, and then gone with it, dissecting each post opposing my narrow minded viewpoint, I genuinely don't know who I'd rather vote for. There's something that is unappealing to me about Bret Hart, but my heart of hearts is telling me that Edge, despite me liking him, is really undeserving of his position in this stage in the competition.

So, here's what it boils down too, I usually vote kayfabe, but I can't really decide between them here, so I'm going to decide by arguments I've seen made about a range of things.

The first is the issue of Bret Hart's technical prowess being irrelevant. This is flawed. While you don't need to have technical brilliance to win a wrestling match, and having it doesn't guarantee a win, it certainly helps. Hart has managed to pull out innovative and unexpected wins through clever counters etc, and that mustn't be ignored. We're talking about a man here that managed to find a way to beat the unbeatable Goldberg three times.



Another factor that we must be reminded of in Hart is though he may not have faced the strongest rosters of all time, he did, at some point, beat most of the huge names of his era.

Now, on to the defence of Edge. Edge is ridiculed for having short reigns, but is that fair? After all, nobody can deny that the average reign of a title has significantly altered over the Monday Night War period. So lets have a look...

Since Edge's first title win, the average length of title reign on the brand he has been on has been just over 60 days. Edge's personal average reign is 48.3 days, or 80% of the total average. Compare that to Bret. The average reign of WWE and WCW reigns between the time he won his first title on WWE and lost his last on WCW with the company he was with was 85.9 days. Hart's personal average reign was 110.3 days, which is about 118% longer than the average reign of the time.

From that we can see that, yes, Hart was significantly more of a noteworthy champion than Edge.

Now the big tournament argument. Edge has won two major tournaments, and gone out in the first round of another. Now, it has been argued that this was by his own design, not wanting to aggrivate an injury, but that doesn't matter.

If Will is counting the Kuwait Cup as a major tournament, then we should also count the Middle East Cup, won by yup, Bret Hart. So, Bret Hart won 5 of the 8 tournaments he's ever entered...

Lets also look at match percentages, Edge has won 89% of his tournament matches. Bret Hart has won 83%, so it's fairly close. Looking at quality of opponents, Hart beat Pete Doherty, presumably not the one from The Libertines, Skinner, IRS, Razor Ramon, Bam Bam Bigelow, Mr. Perfect, Leif Cassidy, British Bulldog, Steve Austin, Goldberg, Saturn, Billy Kidman, Sting, Benoit.

In total there we have 18 world championships, and a whole host of midcard titles. All of them, bar Doherty and Skinner have held singles gold in a major company. Edge has beaten Test, Perry Saturn, Rhyno, Angle, Jericho, Kane and Shawn Michaels. Their total title haul is 19, so slightly more. Their mid card credentials are also nothing to be baulked at.

That's where I am right now, confused, but it's probably going to Hart.

 

[pyrusane]

Bret Hart was THE top guy in the WWE from 1993- 1996.

People keep saying that, but I don't remember it quite that way. Yeah, he was in and around the main event scene for most of that time frame, when he wasn't feuding with Owen (and sometimes even when he was feuding with Owen) but he wasn't consistently the "top" guy.

I seem to remember him losing his title to Bob Backlund at the 94 Survivor Series, who then lost it to another guy. You might know who I'm talking about, seeing as how you use one of his nicknames. Yeah, that guy, Kevin Nash, Diesel. There was something important about his title reign, what was it again...Oh yeah, he held it for one week shy of a year. The ninth longest title reign in 45 years. And I hate to break to you, but he didn't spend that entire year feuding with Hart over the belt. As a matter of fact, his first big feud for the title was with Shawn Michaels. And yes, I do know that it was Hart that eventually did beat him for the title.

But, in that 93-96 time frame, we see someone else is the top guy for a year, the majority of 1995, although he did spend part of that year feuding with Hart, and part of it feuding with Michaels, Sid, and Undertaker I believe. If I'm not mistaken (and I very well might be) this was the year that, during KB's excellent review of the In Your House series of PPVs, he pointed out that Bret wasn't even in televised matches on half of the shows.

Then of course we have 96, when Bret left the company for eight months. Hard to be a top guy for the company when you don't even work for that company.

See, I'm not debating that he was a top guy during this time frame, just that its a little bit of an overstatement to claim that he put the company solely on his shoulders and carried the whole load alone.

Edge has never been that guy. He is a great superstar and a tremendous heel, but he has never been the main guy.

Now, the business is a little different these days than it was back in Hart's time. You have two different brands, and for the most part they are kept separate. Sure, there is some crossover at times, but generally each show has its own title, its own set of feuds and top guys, and not a whole lot of intermingling. You don't have the same four or five guys fighting for the title on both shows, like in the attitude era (I won't say during Bret's time, because SD! wasn't even around yet then, he just had RAW and the syndicated shows on Saturday mornings). And for the last few years, its pretty much been John Cena carrying RAW, and Edge carrying SD!. Sure, the title changes hands a lot. Here's where Edge shows that he is the top guy on SD1, though. When he is not the guy holding the title, then he is the guy challenging for it. There have been several different champions over the last couple of years; Undertaker, Batista, Jeff Hardy, Triple H, and Edge all come to mind, although I feel like I am forgetting someone. Keep in mind, I am just looking at whatever title is on SD! at the time. What is the one thing that all of those different title reigns have in common? I'll tell you: Eithe rEdge was the champion, or he was the guy the champion was facing week-in and week-out. Every single one of those feuds featured Edge as either the champ or the challenger. During Bret's mythical run as the "guy who carried the show" from 93 to 96, half of the time he wasn't even in the title picture. Edge may not consistently be the champion on SD!, but make no mistake, he is the man that show is built around. If you are the champion, and your name isn't Adam Copeland, then your job is to try to keep Edge from taking that title away from you.

 

[Murfish]

Yeah...there was an...um...last minute change in logic.

The final will be held as usual. The difference is that, in a last minute change of procedure, Judge Dredd will now officiate the match.

No nonsense occurs when he it the referee. As such, no cheating will occur without sudden, severe reprimand.

Also, because this is obviously the most important match ever, the set up crew stopped being lazy, and they clean everything out from the bottom of the ring. Now there are no foreign objects to take advantage of.

Judge Dredd also dictated that any posts made from here on in shall be aligned to the center.

It's real. What? Damn real.​

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Excellence of Execution:​

In the information that’s been given by NorCal & Klunder, I’ve come across what I’m sure will become an ever growing tireless argument that Bret Hart is suppose to be better, because he’s one of the greatest technical Superstars to ever Wrestle in the history of the Sport. Right? Sure, whatever.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking Hart’s technical ability. He is without a shadow of a doubt better than Edge as far as technical wrestling goes. Yes, you read that right. But let’s not kid ourselves here. Just because you’re better at being a technical wrestler doesn’t mean shit in the world of scripted Professional Wrestling, now does it?

I’m sure the duo of NorCal and Klunder would argue over how Hart destroys Edge with an amazing set of skills that Edge just can’t match. Right? Sure, whatever. Wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I noticed somewhere that Klunder or NorCal one mentioned Hart as being a “Wrestling Machine”.. well, who else has been deemed a Wrestling machine? That’s right, Kurt Angle.. You know, the actual “Wrestler” in Professional Wrestling. The guy with amateur skills, who’s made twice the impact Hart ever will, in the business known as Professional Wrestling.

And which one of these two individuals has had Kurt Angle’s number in multiple, straight-up One-on-One matches? Edge, perhaps. Yeah, Edge.

This is where I’m pausing to give a split moment for Klunder or NorCal to say.. “But Will, Edge is only great in gimmick matches. He can’t actually wrestle. Fake sex rulez, popularity FTW” and a bunch of other nonsense that truly has no place in this tournament.. But both have decided to bring in, regardless. (Hypocrisy at its finest)

Regardless of the stupid side of their rants, the truth is Hart doesn’t beat Edge just because he’s the better technical Wrestler. When Edge needs to, and wants to, he can wrestle toe-to-toe with some of the technical greats. Angle and Benoit, just to name two. And in the history of things, Edge has a better record against technical Superstars than he does over anyone else. Look it up, you’ll find it to be true.

Will really dude? for someone like you, this is kinda shamefull. of ALL people in this tournament, you accuse ME of saying Bret Hart is a better wrestlers only BECUASE he was better technically?

absolutely incorrect, and you, of all people know I wouldnt ever say anything like that. I say he was a better wrestler, becuase he was, on every level, regardless of style worked. Better seller, better phsycologist, better spot transitioner, more realism, more consistency. And as said, he didnt need gimmicks. I can name off about 40 GREAT just straight up one on one, non gimmick wrestling matches from guys of various shape and size and style. You cant do that for Edge.

Your "better record vs Kurt Angle" thing is sorta flimsy as well. For one being, um, Edges victories didnt occur anyplace near his prime. This tournament is prime Vs prime. For second being, well, Bret Hart and Kurt Angle have never even had the OPPURTUNITY to wrestle. so, yea.


The style in which Bret hart worked has fuck all to do with him being a better pro wrestler, and I would never claim otherwise. Regardless, he is still better, far better in fact, and deserves everyones votes here.

 

[Murfish]

I have something to say. Making a post of this length is just counterproductive. I may cut out parts of your post that seem pointless.

In 1991:​

Hart defeated the following individuals to win the 91 version of the KOTR.. Pete Dougherty, (who?) Skinner, and in the finals defeated I.R.S to win the tournament. Now, you may be curious why there is only three names involved. Well, that’s because Hart received a bye in the Semi-Finals, whereas I.R.S had to defeat 3 individuals, (The Berzerker, Jim Duggan & Jerry Saggs) just to advance to the finals. So could someone tell me how the face received the bye - instead of the heel, in this situation?

Last part really isn’t necessary, and tournament experience is tournament experience.

In 1993:​

This one meanders a bit, but you give Hart the credit. Good.

In 1999:​

Hart defeated the following individuals to win the 1999 W.C.W Mayhem Championship Tournament.. Goldberg, Perry Saturn, Billy Kidman, Sting, and in the finals defeated Chris Benoit. This was the only tournament where Bret Hart actually competed against someone throughout every single round. So, why shouldn’t this tournament be his best? Simple.. It was fixed heavily in Hart’s favor, by way of a storyline that even later is announced as to why.

To begin with, Hart only defeated Goldberg in the opening round of the Tournament, because of major interference from Hall, Nash & Sid Vicious. He then advances on to face a series of who’s who to guys that shouldn’t even belong in the same ring as Hart, then on the Pay per view night, defeats Sting then Chris Benoit to win the Championship. While I won’t argue his matches with Sting & Benoit to be some of the best he’s ever had.. Once again, I’d be heavily remiss if I didn’t explain that a storyline was broken within a month’s time of this, by Vince Russo (on camera) in which he explains Hart was given the title, and hand picked to be the Champion. In exchange for forgiveness to the Montreal Screw-Job.

While you can’t fix Wrestling matches, (well, you can, but I’m trying to play nice in not mentioning the outside stuff) the fact remains that in an actual ON-SCREEN storyline, it was more or less said that Hart was given the title.. Because of no better reason, than to say “We’re Sorry”.

Did the matches still happen? All matches are predetermined, whether the tell us or not.

So, that’s three Tournaments, two of which I’ll give Hart in saying they were major. But wait, to everyone who believes Hart is “undefeated” in Tournaments.. I have a shocking surprise for you all. HE’S NOT! (oh noes, I know) In fact, he’s got a barely above .500 record at 4-3. His fourth, missing tournament victory was (not surprising) once again because he received a bye in part of the Middle East tournament. As for the 3 he’s lost, 2 were the Kuwaiti Cup 1996-1997, during the peak of his so-called “greatest Wrestler ever to the World” push, and the final was the European Championship tournament to crown a first-ever Champion.

Those are obviously very important tourneys. They were even important enough for everyone to remember them...oh wait.

In 2001:​

Edge defeated the following individuals to become the 01 version of the KOTR.. Test, Perry Saturn, Rhino, and in the finals defeated Kurt Angle to win the Tournament. Now I’m going to give Bret Hart some credit in this situation. In 1993, to me his greatest Tournament victory, he defeated 2 individuals who were very good in their own right, and arguably one of the better big men in the sport throughout. On the flip side, Edge defeated a glorified Tag team specialist in Test, a career mid-carder in Saturn, and a guy who’s best moments in history came when he could use tables and other weapons in Rhino.

What’s that you say? Will, what the fuck are you doing, you’re killing Edge by saying this! Oh, but I’m actually not. You see, Edge defeating any of those guys.. that’s truly a piece of cake, right? Sure. And that’s why he did it. However, Bret Hart NEVER faced anyone half as good as Kurt Angle in any Tournament he’s ever competed in. Much less, when Hart would’ve been considered a mid-carder facing a former World Heavyweight Champion.

So 2001, while the under-section of the Tournament may not have been strong, the Finals that vaulted Edge to success was more than enough to make Edge look like a possible Hall of Fame inductee. Edge beating Angle, not just was a showing of things to come, but it was what truly made Edge advance to that so-called “next level”.

Shane gave him a favorable interference, no?

When Hart defeated Ramon, Ramon was a one-hit wonder who gained a Heavyweight shot in early 93, then never seen another even remote sniff at Heavyweight opportunity until 98, in W.C.W. When Hart defeated Perfect, while it was a great match, it was against a guy who had maybe 2 more good months left in him, before he ultimately left the Company. And finally, when Hart beat Bigelow, it was during one of Bigelow’s lowest times in Wrestling history. What exactly was Bigelow in 1993? What’d he do? Why would he have been considered even remotely worth being in the Finals? He shouldn’t have been, simple as that.

So as you can see based on the Head to Head match-up from Hart winning in 1993, comparable to Edge winning in 2001.. Edge’s victory was a cornerstone in proving why Edge deserves to win, not just now, but in general. Whereas Hart’s victory wasn’t anything more than one more meaningless victory for no other reason than no one else was free at the time to be considerably worth giving the spot to.

Because he furthered the Shane/Angle feud?

(Seriously, in 1993 - who else could’ve won instead of Hart?)

How is this relevant?

In 2002:​

Basically, long story short you’re looking at the opposite of 1999 for Bret Hart. Edge didn’t even get out of the blocks and lost to Chris Jericho, but not because he should have.. Instead because he had no alternative than to lose. Edge was injured during this time frame, and lost not because Jericho was ever the better option, but because Edge knew he couldn’t have went any further without doing more damage to himself. Let’s think about this a bit more, and with a deeper look.

If Edge would’ve defeated Chris Jericho, his path in the KOTR would’ve lead him to either Rob Van Dam, or Brock Lesnar. Two individuals in which Edge has had at least one quality match-up with, each. Would he have lost to Lesnar? No doubt. But because Lesnar was being pushed, once again not because Edge wouldn’t deserve it. In fact, I’d argue heavily that if Edge were in place of Jericho, Van Dam would’ve never made it beyond the Semi Finals. And Edge would’ve highlighted against Lesnar. But that’s neither here nor there. Didn’t happen, all because Edge was injured and couldn’t compete in the Tournament beyond dropping out in the Opening rounds.

You mix kayfabe and real life a lot.

In 2005:​

Edge defeated the following individuals to become the only man to ever win a Gold Rush Tournament.. Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, and in the finals defeated Kane, to win the Gold Rush Tournament. Now, can anyone seriously sit here and debate how that isn’t arguably the greatest line-up of Superstars to have defeated in a Tournament?

Kane is the weakest individual of the three, and he himself is a former Heavyweight Champion. That’s more than Ramon, Perfect and Bigelow can all say. Jericho has made his name in this sport and will forever be remembered, and if anyone thinks Shawn Michaels is worse than anyone Hart’s faced throughout his multiple Tournament victories.. Well, you’re blatantly trying to pull crap out of your ass in a very pathetic attempt to make any of Hart’s tournament victories look even remotely worth a damn.

As you can see, by the information above.. Edge may not hold “as many” Tournament victories under his belt. But he hasn’t lost nearly as many, either. And he’s defeated twice the amount of tremendously talented Superstars that Hart ever did, in winning Two tournaments.

HBK, Jericho, and Kane, while talented, are midcarders for the most part.

Excellence of Execution:​

In the information that’s been given by NorCal & Klunder, I’ve come across what I’m sure will become an ever growing tireless argument that Bret Hart is suppose to be better, because he’s one of the greatest technical Superstars to ever Wrestle in the history of the Sport. Right? Sure, whatever.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking Hart’s technical ability. He is without a shadow of a doubt better than Edge as far as technical wrestling goes. Yes, you read that right. But let’s not kid ourselves here. Just because you’re better at being a technical wrestler doesn’t mean shit in the world of scripted Professional Wrestling, now does it?

I’m sure the duo of NorCal and Klunder would argue over how Hart destroys Edge with an amazing set of skills that Edge just can’t match. Right? Sure, whatever. Wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I noticed somewhere that Klunder or NorCal one mentioned Hart as being a “Wrestling Machine”.. well, who else has been deemed a Wrestling machine? That’s right, Kurt Angle.. You know, the actual “Wrestler” in Professional Wrestling. The guy with amateur skills, who’s made twice the impact Hart ever will, in the business known as Professional Wrestling.

And which one of these two individuals has had Kurt Angle’s number in multiple, straight-up One-on-One matches? Edge, perhaps. Yeah, Edge.

Yes, 'Wrestling Machine' as in 'produces great matches' not 'technical god'. They were talking about who was the better in ring worker.

This is where I’m pausing to give a split moment for Klunder or NorCal to say.. “But Will, Edge is only great in gimmick matches. He can’t actually wrestle. Fake sex rulez, popularity FTW” and a bunch of other nonsense that truly has no place in this tournament.. But both have decided to bring in, regardless. (Hypocrisy at its finest)

Regardless of the stupid side of their rants, the truth is Hart doesn’t beat Edge just because he’s the better technical Wrestler. When Edge needs to, and wants to, he can wrestle toe-to-toe with some of the technical greats. Angle and Benoit, just to name two. And in the history of things, Edge has a better record against technical Superstars than he does over anyone else. Look it up, you’ll find it to be true.

The argument is that Bret is better in kayfabe and in the ring...as a worker. It was never a technician argument.

Rated R vs. Rated PG:​

While the catchy title is sure to go on blind eyes, the subject of this portion of my post is to explain how despite most people believing Hart will sweep this round, you shouldn’t jump too quickly on that notion. Bret Hart is more than likely going to be considered the Face of this contest. (clearly, as half the forum hates Me, and Edge right now ) So when you base this match, surely you’d have to look at Hart’s face moments.. At which point, you’ll find he lost at an incredible rate to Superstars no where near his league.. All because they took underhanded tactics and cheated. Hello, what the fuck do you think Edge would do in order to win?

Now I’m sure people are tired of the Ultimate Opportunist stick, and hey the truth hurts what can I say. Face facts people, whether you want to or not, Hart has lost to the likes of Jerry Lawler, Doink the Clown, Owen Hart, Shawn Michaels and even the Mountie. While that’s an up and down list of names, the fact remains every single individual on that list has defeated Bret Hart, through advantage in cheating and underhanded tactics. And Edge, whether you ever like to admit it or not, is the Master of Underhanded tactics. Hart is a Kid’s movie wrapped in a Wrestler’s body. The guy doesn’t see cheating coming from a mile away, and can’t stop it when it happens.

Edge doesn’t have to be the best at anything, to be the smarter at taking short cuts. And that’s me discounting Edge, because in truthfulness he really is just as good as Bret Hart, in several things. But he’s leaps and bounds above Bret Hart, in cheating and winning by any means available to him.

In a tournament to determine the greatest wrestler of all time, the match outcome is left to cheating. That makes sense.

Sharpshooter vs. Spear:​

TM posted a video of Goldberg spearing Bret Hart on an episode of Monday Nitro, and wants you to apparently see the flaw in that. Everyone, let’s begin an incredibly slow 3-count and find out how many times Goldberg could’ve won the match, even with Bret’s chest plate, because Hart failed to realize he was still going to get creamed by a Spear.

TM, all in all Hart recovers sooner, and even rolls Goldberg over to count to three himself. Thankfully, an actual official will be present in this contest, and barring Hart wearing a Canadian sport’s teams jersey, I don’t see any way how Edge is going to spear a metal chest plate. Even, in which case he were.. The official present in the match, would make a 3-count in Edge’s favor, seeing as to how he’d fall directly ON TOP OF Hart.

There is a large difference between a Goldberg spear and an Edge spear.

Hart has to be honestly one of the dumbest individuals I’ve ever seen, in trying to counter the Spear. He doesn’t move out of the way, he doesn’t even try kicking the opponent. He just takes it, in hopes of apparently kicking out. Edge will take that chance 10 outta 10 times, every time.

That's how he'll react every time. Hart is incapable of adaptation. That's what I got out of that.

Now, on the reverse side of things, Hart’s Sharpshooter is the best there is in the business. Other’s have tried to duplicate it, including Edge, but Hart wins more than anyone else with the Sharpshooter. The only issue with this is, Hart can only apply this move when his opponent is either jumping feet first at him, or is already laid out on the ground. Edge doesn’t have a move in his set that has him jumping feet first at Hart, so that makes Hart’s finisher one dimensional in the fact he must apply it from the feet and ground, only.

Can this be countered? HELL YES it can be. And Edge ironically enough have won matches with his modified version of the Sharpshooter, in which he could counter the original version into, from. Need a video to help show everyone what move I’m referring to? No problem.. I hope the music is a nice touch, as well..

Hart has the best Sharpshooter. You did say that. As a user of the move for many years, wouldn't he have a better knowledge of it's use and counters than a man who rarely uses a modified version of it?

Resiliency vs. Determination:​

I don’t think anyone can question either man’s resiliency, but in this situation you then have to look at which individual wants it more. Bret Hart has taken this business more serious than the plague, but Edge is arguably more passionate about every match he has than anyone I’ve ever seen. I don’t think even NorCal can argue how pumped Edge was during his entrance for a Mania - MITB match, and that shows how much the man wants each victory, each win, more than arguably anyone else.

Hart has often been criticized for coveting titles as legitimate champoinships.

That's pretty damn serious.

Final Decision/Personal Note:​

While there were a couple other topics I wanted to hit on, its getting pretty late and the last time I wrote out a post like this most of you didn’t even bother to care - and just used the ever growing excuse of “But Edge doesn’t belong, and that’s good enough for me.” All in all, read this if you want - debate me if you can. Vote how you wish in the end, for whatever reason you truly see fit.

I want to give a special Thank You, to each and every individual who’s voted Edge and truly backed him through this Tournament. Maybe you backed him the whole way, maybe you backed him through one or two of his tougher match-ups, regardless. Thank you. People give me semi credit for getting Edge this far, but I only hold 1 vote. If what I say has pushed Edge to the finals, then it means a lot to me that endless numbers of people respect my opinion and views so much - to vote Edge, even if they didn’t originally think they would. So win or lose, I’m proud to have helped get Edge as far as I have. Hopefully he wins, but if he doesn’t.. Hart is a good enough alternative. May the better man win, and as always with me..

Good job with Edge. I'm being serious. I also wanted to see Taker removed, so that was a nice bonus.

I ask that you never make a post this long again. It doesn't really help discussion.​

Dredd made me center align that.​

 

[Big Sexy]

I seem to remember him losing his title to Bob Backlund at the 94 Survivor Series, who then lost it to another guy. You might know who I'm talking about, seeing as how you use one of his nicknames. Yeah, that guy, Kevin Nash, Diesel.

And do you want to know why they had him lose it to Backlund and not to Nash? Because the WWE didn't want their top guy to lose a match straight up. They had him lose it to a heel so there could be outside interference and Bret would still look strong.

There was something important about his title reign, what was it again...Oh yeah, he held it for one week shy of a year. The ninth longest title reign in 45 years. And I hate to break to you, but he didn't spend that entire year feuding with Hart over the belt. As a matter of fact, his first big feud for the title was with Shawn Michaels. And yes, I do know that it was Hart that eventually did beat him for the title.

You do realize that at this point the WWE really only had 5 pay per views, so it's not like Nash was defending the belt against major challengers every month. Much like John Cena is doing now, sometimes the top guy has to step down for a little bit so new stars can be created. But throughout Nash's reign Bret was always in a top feud. He finished his feud with Backlund in an I Quit match, and then throughout the rest of the year he had his feud with Jerry Lawler and Issac Yankem. That might not sound like much now but when they were taking place those were major feuds and they often overshadowed Nash and the WWE title.

If I'm not mistaken (and I very well might be) this was the year that, during KB's excellent review of the In Your House series of PPVs, he pointed out that Bret wasn't even in televised matches on half of the shows.

The In Your House pay per views at that point were in their early stages and were nothing more then glorified RAWS.

Then of course we have 96, when Bret left the company for eight months. Hard to be a top guy for the company when you don't even work for that company

I said from 93 to 96, I didn't mean through the year of 1996. That was the year that HBK took over as the top guy.

See, I'm not debating that he was a top guy during this time frame, just that its a little bit of an overstatement to claim that he put the company solely on his shoulders and carried the whole load alone.

When did I ever say he carried the whole company by himself?

Edge may not consistently be the champion on SD!, but make no mistake, he is the man that show is built around. If you are the champion, and your name isn't Adam Copeland, then your job is to try to keep Edge from taking that title away from you.

If Edge was really a top guy then why can't he hold the title for more then 2 months at a time. Edge is the top heel which is why he is always the guy going after the title, but once he reaches his goal of finally getting it the belt is gone just as quickly as he got it.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Well, damn. Ye verily, NorCal must come down off his throne for this one.

You get on WZ when you're in your bathroom, too? What are the odds.

Better pro wrestler?

Bret Hart, and there is no question whatsoever.

Is there no question because you say there's no question, or because you're naive enough to think because you typed it - people will just assume what you say is good enough to be the only bit of truth ever known to man?

Just curious, because I'm pretty sure I could call you a liar for this statement, and you couldn't prove me wrong. You know this, right? I mean, if you can.. I invite you to do so..

The best in ring preformer EVER.

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

The best tag team preformer EVER.

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

The best seller EVER.

See above statement by me.

Never injured an opponet.

Proof?

Was in the best singles match of all time.

Opinionated statement that you're entitled to. Doesn't make it a fact. You think it does? Proof??

Wrestled in the best tag match of all time.

Ugh.. seriously, you just went on and on, didn't you. Look, I'm getting tired of copying and pasting. Just understand every bit of what you said.. opinionated, not a fact.

Unless you have proof to show me otherwise.

Wrestled in the best 10 man tag of all time.

blah, blah, blah. Wait, I take that back.. this one I'll give him. I mean, because you and I BOTH know he single handily carried 9 other Wrestlers in this match, right, right? Yeah.. honestly.. wow.

Its like you're trying to grasp straws in which to give Hart all the credit you can find. Whats next, you gonna say he was the greatest Wrestler to ever wear pink and make it look tough?

White hot heel heat, was way over as a face, and was a good, consistent high draw during the WWE's shittiiest of time, when there wasnt much going on outside of him.

Proof?

Damn fine face promos, fucking GREAT heel promos.

Video proof? I'm not looking it up, if you say it.. back it up with something I can watch.

Bret's heel promos during 1997 are the stuff of fucking legend.

Are you saying this because he's now in the Hall of Fame, or are you still trying to ride that whole I just blew my load on Bret Hart memories stick?

Nothing Edge has ever done promo wise can even touch them. Bret Hart, by far and away.

Yes, NorCal, because there is no way Edge could cut bland Face/Heel vs Face/Heel traditional old school style promo after promo. Watching Hart cut promos was like watching one and rewinding it to watch it over again. Its like the guy was reading from a book.. the same paragraph, from a book, that is.

Bret Hart wins big matches.

And yet he's still lost bigger ones. Amazing.

Edge loses them.

And yet he's still won bigger ones. Astounding.

Does Edge's way of going about things put him in a postion to go over Hart here? yea. Its an even draw for Edge at best. Its not though, is it? Bret wins the big ones. Edge loses them.

Except for when each guy reverses that theory of yours.

Does the match cater to either man?

yes it does, that being Bret Hart.

Mayhem 99
KOR 91
KOR 93

Bret Hart wins tournaments. Matter of fact, I havent seen Bret involved in aany tournament he DIDNT win.

Except for that whole Initial European Championship tournament, in which he lost to a guy that many would compare to Edge's style.

And several International Tournaments that've been won by a mix of guys better and worse than Bret. Clearly proving that he isn't actually the best anything.

He won two matches at WM 10, the first of which, being a grueling battle with his borther Owen.

Uhm, NorCal.. I respect the shit out of you. You know this, right? But your knowledge of Wrestling is pure crap.. I'm assuming you've never even actually watched Wrestlemania X.. because if you did, you would've noticed Bret DIDN'T actually win that first "grueling" match against his less talented brother, Owen. He lost it.

And of course, the Iron Man match.

Which didn't even happen at Wrestlemania X, and Hart once again, didn't win.

The one were HBK was on the verge of tapping like a bitch had the clock not saved him. We all know Bret had that thing locked up, after 60 minutes.

Its going on 6 in the morning, would you mind showing me the results of who won and lost that match? I'm sure you'll see a loss next to Hart's name. How and why are irrelevant. (unless of course you want to whine more about it)

Edge has a KOR to his name, yes, but doesnt have NEAR the resume of Bret Hart when it comes to working, and winning, multiple, or long matches in a night. Bret Hart.

Uhm, err, yeah.. no. In fact, I'm glad I re-read what you said, because I didn't fully get how misguided and wrong you were.

So, I originally thought you said Hart was the better technical wrestler, when in fact you said "professional wrestler". My bad. I was in agreement with Hart being the better technician, but definitely no where near the better overall Professional Wrestler.

Why? Well, thats rather easy.. allow me to explain..

What Makes a Wrestler, the "better" Professional Wrestler?​

The initial thing I'm sure some would say, is how much that individual can carry and lead a Company. So let's review.

Bret Hart: Won the Heavyweight Championship from Ric Flair in 1992, and carried the Company for four months before dropping the title to a man who later (as in minutes, later) passed it back to Hulk Hogan. What's that show you? It shows you that the Company was more or less testing Hart, and he never got even a sniff of the title until a year later.

From this point, Hart won the title on the same night he lost to his Younger, less talented brother, and once again Carried the Company for roughly eight months. Before he dropped it to yet another aging wonder, in Bob Backlund, who passed the title off to Diesel, who proceeded to carry the Company for the next year when Hart was losing to Pirates, Ninjas and phony Kings w/ ugly Dentists.

Hart once again won the title, only to yet again become the transitional Champion a mere four months later in handing the title off to Shawn Michaels. What'd Hart do then? Walked away for the rest of the year, only to come back and try to once again be a leader.

By this point, Hart had successfully carried the Company for a collective full year. (this is of course pointing out that by Hart carrying the Company - I mean Main Eventing, which back then is what the Champion always did)

So, in 1997 Hart had his arguable best year. He lost the Rumble, but should've won. (should've, could've, would've - didn't, though, did he) He did win against Austin at Mania, but proceeded to lose the overall war to him in the end. He got put in a wheelchair (like Vickie) for about 2-3 months, then came back to fall back into another title reign, thanks to Shawn Michaels. (but hey, a win is a win and I'll give him that) At this point, Hart as the Champion wasn't even the main focus anymore - being over-shadowed by the Undertaker and H.B.K. And finally, Hart wrapped up his arguable best year ever by refusing to job to Shawn Michaels, and still losing in the worst possible way, anyways. Nice.

So, let's for argument sake say Hart carried the Company for a good full 2 years. He actually didn't, but I'll give him that outta the goodness of my heart. Get it, Hart - heart.. eh, anyways..

Edge: I'm definitely not repeating all that I've already said. Unless you really want me to - trust me, if you do, it'll only end worse for Hart fans. However, I will say very simply.. Edge carried Smackdown, collectively, for 3 years alone. That beats anything Hart's done..

Moving on, to the final piece of what many would argue makes the better Professional Wrestler.. Accolade's and Accomplishments.

Bret Hart: 7 time Heavyweight Champion, 4 time United States Champion, 3 time Tag Team Champion, 2 time Intercontinental Champion, one (untelevised) KOTR victory, and the official first-ever recognized KOTR victory. And finally, 1 Royal Rumble victory.

Nice.. now..

Edge: 9 time Heavyweight Champion, 14 time Tag Team Champion, 5 time Intercontinental Champion, 1 time United States Champion, 2 time MITB winner, and 1 KOTR victory.

With the exception of the Royal Rumble, and also excluding the fact Edge has won another very impressive tournament - I'd say Edge's victories out-weigh anything Hart's ever accomplished.

Oh, by the way.. your opinion of Hart being the better Tag team Wrestler - is vastly scoffed at. 2 times, to 14 times.. yeah, Hart's wayyyy better, rightttt...

SO, in the end.. I once again highly respect you for your opinions. But if you even remotely had a thought that anything you said could be taken as a fact.. I completely, utterly, and highly invite you to prove it.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Nothing. Unfortunately, he loses two thirds of his matches. Y'know, those matches that he always cheats in. Then again, I know people don't vote for Edge with consideration for that whole pesky "logic" thing.

So, let's use your logic, Samuel. Edge (according to you) loses two-thirds of his matches. How do you know that would fall into this match? I mean, if you're going off the actual on-going tournament he's already proved you wrong by beating everyone he's faced thus far.

So apparently you're wanting people to follow you down a road of "perhaps" and "possibilities". I hope this road has a scenic view, because from how you're describing it - its very far out there.

So, first you say that Hart has won and lost major tournaments...

And then you go on to talk about some unknown tournament called the Kuwaiti Cup, that Hart didn't win. How the fuck is that a major tournament? When the eventual winners of a tournament are Ahmed Johnson and Tiger Ali Singh, you know it's meaningless.

Wait, so you're saying Hart lost because the amount of talent he faced in those tournaments.. was beneath him? So.. uhm.. Hart loses to guys that aren't even half as good as he is? I see.

In fact, in your entire post, you don't talk about ANYTHING to do with Edge being a better professional wrestler than Hart. Is that because you know Hart is better? Probably.

No, its because I didn't know you wanted me to prove why Edge is the better overall Wrestler. I assumed most people were just randomly smart enough to have figured that out by now.

I've made a more recently updated post (to NorCal) on why Edge is in fact, the better Professional Wrestler. You're Welcome.

All you do is go into kayfabe reasons why Edge could beat Hart.

Most people seem to be going on about how thats the way to determine this tournament. I get confused by what people wanna base winner's and loser's off of. Its not my fault you guys can't make up your mind's on what you want me proving you wrong in.

The fact that Edge even made it this far is a testament to the fact that evidently there is a God and miracles do happen.

He's inched past Brock.

He SOMEHOW adjusted the laws of physics to beat the Undertaker.

No more weaseling. Edge must have every single body part known to man in severe agony. I'm not Hitman mark, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I think he's very over-rated. But let's face reality. The Sharpshooter is one of the nastiest submissions ever to grace the WWE ring. Broke down Edge is now at the mercy of Bret's finisher. Edge has fallen numberous times to both Angle and Benoit's submissions. There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that he could resist the Sharpshooter at 100%, let alone after all this.

Bret locks in the Sharpshooter. Call the fat lady, she's on in 5.

Blah, blah, blah.. Maybe you should visit Wisconsin, I've heard they have amazing cheese. It sure seems like it'd go great with all that whine.

ESW, I believe I read something from you a bit back on how you've lost respect for me.. I truly am sorry for that. I'm even more sorry, that you honestly let me backing my favorite get in the way of you holding respect for me.

Maybe when I get tired of having a favorite, you'll like me again. Or not. I still actually respect and like you though, I just wish you'd quit whining about things that aren't relevant anymore. He won, in each of those complaints you're rambling about.. can we move on, please?

We're talking about a man here that managed to find a way to beat the unbeatable Goldberg three times.

You do realize Hart never actually beat Goldberg, without major outside interference and/or help. The same type that most people claim wouldn't be involved in this tournament.. which makes this irrelevant.

Unless you want to make it relevant, which I'm fine with.. because you can take Hart winning that way.. and match it up against Edge having Vickie, Lita and La Familia's help any day of the week.. and Edge would still win. (watch how many countless people ignore that I'm replying to you - and think I'm saying he'd win w/ help. )

Another factor that we must be reminded of in Hart is though he may not have faced the strongest rosters of all time, he did, at some point, beat most of the huge names of his era.

As has Edge.. your point, being?

From that we can see that, yes, Hart was significantly more of a noteworthy champion than Edge.

Outside of his reign in 1994, in which he defended the title against his brother for the most part, Hart hasn't had a reign that wasn't considered to be transitional.

I'm not saying Edge hasn't been considered the same, but to say Hart's reigns are more significant is a bit of a stretch.

You also need to consider, Hart defended the title during a time frame in which they held 5 Pay per views a year. Edge is doing it, when the title is defended on regular television, as well as 12-15 Pay per views a year.

Sizable different.

Now the big tournament argument. Edge has won two major tournaments, and gone out in the first round of another. Now, it has been argued that this was by his own design, not wanting to aggrivate an injury, but that doesn't matter.

If Will is counting the Kuwait Cup as a major tournament, then we should also count the Middle East Cup, won by yup, Bret Hart. So, Bret Hart won 5 of the 8 tournaments he's ever entered...

Lets also look at match percentages, Edge has won 89% of his tournament matches. Bret Hart has won 83%, so it's fairly close. Looking at quality of opponents, Hart beat Pete Doherty, presumably not the one from The Libertines, Skinner, IRS, Razor Ramon, Bam Bam Bigelow, Mr. Perfect, Leif Cassidy, British Bulldog, Steve Austin, Goldberg, Saturn, Billy Kidman, Sting, Benoit.

In total there we have 18 world championships, and a whole host of midcard titles. All of them, bar Doherty and Skinner have held singles gold in a major company. Edge has beaten Test, Perry Saturn, Rhyno, Angle, Jericho, Kane and Shawn Michaels. Their total title haul is 19, so slightly more. Their mid card credentials are also nothing to be baulked at.

That's where I am right now, confused, but it's probably going to Hart.

First, where are you getting this 5-8 record from? I did include all his Middle East tournaments. As well as the European tournament. Hart is 4-3, you're actually making him seem worse.

But the list of talent each individual has faced, is more leaning in Edge's favor when you consider the time in which Edge faced them. He was a mid-carder, beating Main Eventers in the 01 KOTR. Hart was a former Heavyweight Champion, facing mid-carders in the 93 KOTR.

Yeah...there was an...um...last minute change in logic.

The final will be held as usual. The difference is that, in a last minute change of procedure, Judge Dredd will now officiate the match.

No nonsense occurs when he it the referee. As such, no cheating will occur without sudden, severe reprimand.

Also, because this is obviously the most important match ever, the set up crew stopped being lazy, and they clean everything out from the bottom of the ring. Now there are no foreign objects to take advantage of.

Judge Dredd also dictated that any posts made from here on in shall be aligned to the center.

It's real. What? Damn real.​

And people say I've lost it.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I mean. what exactly are you looking to me to do to prove it? The mans reputation preceeds him. If people dont know what im talking about, then they can look it up, and do a little research. Its Bret fucking Hart, for goodness sakes

My bad on the WM X thing. He won the big one at the end, fatigued and injured, is my point. And Ill go ahead and say he won the 60 minute iron man match. HBK won the 1 minute match they had after that. I dont think i saw any place were I said he carried anyone. He was involved in the matches. Im not sure if Edge can lay claim to being involved in the "best ever" of anything. Innit.


I could turn RIGHT around and ask you to "proove" that Edge "is" a better pro wrestler than Bret Hart. he just, simply isnt. on any level. on ANY level. Face work, heel work, drawing, title reigns, just. Nothing. Nothing at all.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I mean. what exactly are you looking to me to do to prove it? The mans reputation preceeds him. If people dont know what im talking about, then they can look it up, and do a little research. Its Bret fucking Hart, for goodness sakes

NorCal, just because you say it's *insert first name* FUCKING *insert last name* doesn't actually make him better or worse. LOL But thats a great try.

Look, I'll give you this much. I love Bret Hart, more than I've ever gave two shits about Steve Austin & the Undertaker. If Edge loses here, I'll be just as proud to know he got here. If Bret Hart wins here, I'll be happy because I respect Hart more than I do Austin or Taker.

But in my heart of heart's, I know if almost 100 people think Edge can beat Austin & the Undertaker.. then no one in their right mind is going to vote for Bret Hart over Edge. Taker & Austin were both bigger names than Hart will ever be.

Yes, I realize this is me bringing up crap from the past. I APOLOGIZE FULLY for it.

But in the end, Edge can defeat Bret Hart. I've proven why through several different aspects of logic and kayfabe. Prime. And even through accolade's and accomplishments. Edge is better, in this match-up. And I've at least listed several opinionated reasons (just as you have) on why I believe that, fully.

My bad on the WM X thing. He won the big one at the end, fatigued and injured, is my point.

So, you're telling me Yokozuna wasn't fatigued and injured just the same, if not worse?

Let's just recap this night. Bret Hart lost to Owen Hart, a younger, less talented version of himself. A guy that was depicted as "being in his shadows". (thus meaning, he'd never be nearly as good as him) Bret lost, freshly lost.

Yokozuna faced Lex Luger, a guy that was by all accounts at this time just as popular and firmly in the Main Event spot. Yokozuna was hit in the face, with that "metal arm-plate", and somehow won the match due to Mr. Perfect being a controversial official.

Yokozuna also faced Luger, deeper into the night.. which means, he had even LESS time to rest and recover.

Hart, who had more time to rest and recover, faced a guy that could've made 2 of him, if not 3.. who still holds my respect, for competing in 2 matches in one night, that close to each other. And in the end, you're 100% right.. Bret Hart won the big one at the end.. against a guy twice his size, who had wrestled the same amount of times, in a shorter span.

Wow.

And Ill go ahead and say he won the 60 minute iron man match.

AHAHAHAHAHA So you're bold-faced lying now, just to try and win Hart votes? Seriously.. he didn't fricken win. No way, did he win. Did H.B.K tap out? No. Is there any video evidence of H.B.K tapping out at Wrestlemania XII? NO.

The official stopped the match, because the bell rang. That doesn't mean Hart won. It means the time ran out, and it sucks for Hart, that he had a Sharpshooter locked on for damn near a minute, and couldn't get a guy to tap. But it doesn't under any circumstance mean he won. He didn't. Simple as.

I could say Edge has won a lot of things, that he didn't.. but based on the logic you're using.. it falls in the category of Well, he had it won.

Edge HAD the Undertaker beat at Wrestlemania 24. Edge HAD John Cena defeated in Toronto. But he didn't win, now did he?

Seriously, this has me rolling that you'd even consider coming out and lying directly now.

HBK won the 1 minute match they had after that.

So Bret Hart lost a match in a minute. So he can be beaten quickly. What are the odds?! Edge has defeated numerous individuals in under a minute. So Hart can lose quickly.. Edge can win quickly.

I think you get where I'm headed with this.

I dont think i saw any place were I said he carried anyone. He was involved in the matches.

You used the phrase "best" a lot. So much so, that you should copyright it. Yet you can't actually prove any of those really were the best, now can you?

Im not sure if Edge can lay claim to being involved in the "best ever" of anything. Innit.

Well, you'd be wrong. Something you seem to be getting the hang of a lot in this thread, amazingly enough.

Truth is, Bret Hart has a 1-match of the year lead on Edge. Hart has 3, according to PWI.. Edge has 2.

Both have been named 2-time Feud of the year award winners, and both have been named 1-time Comeback Wrestler of the year award winners. Both have also been named Most Hated Wrestler of the Year, once apiece.

So arguably, Edge can hold claim to being the best at something - as can Hart. Hart holding a 1-match of the year lead on Edge also isn't exactly something to be re-mirrored, considering Edge can still claim more MOTY awards. Hart can't.

I could turn RIGHT around and ask you to "proove" that Edge "is" a better pro wrestler than Bret Hart. he just, simply isnt. on any level. on ANY level. Face work, heel work, drawing, title reigns, just. Nothing. Nothing at all.

LOL Once again, I laugh just because you only say this because I called you out. If you want me to prove to you why (in my opinion) Edge is the better individual.. I will gladly refer you to any number of posts I've already made that state every bit of why - full of videos, information, and actual history lessons.