WZ Tourney Semi Final: Bret Hart vs. Chris Jericho

Bret Hart vs. Chris Jericho

  • The Hitman

  • Y2J


Results are only viewable after voting.
Why, just because you say so? Wow...must have a lotta pull. Hey, tell the Dow Jones to jump about 5,000 points on Monday. You'd be doing me a real solid.
Because there's been proof provided that wrestling 2 -3 matches in a night won't keep hart from winning
[quoteI agree[/quote]
Glad we can all agree on something
I'd be impressed if you'd show me when he fought someone on the level of the Rock. But wait...hang on...he did have a few big matches with Shawn Michaels oh but...wait...he lost those...
You wanted someone on the Rock's level here you go. Bret won thins too
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This isn't the whole match but I'm sure you get the point.

I know this isn't a No DQ Submission match but If Bret Can beat Steve Austin in a grueling match like this he can beat Jericho no problem
He'll be full of oxygen that he's sucking out of a tank since the Rock took him to the limit.
Austin took him to the limit as well but Bret still won.
Is cocky the same thing as penisy?
:disappointed:
Yep, afraid so. If I don't give a flying fuck, then what'll America's youth think of me?:(
They will hate you forever
Yes I know that. My entire point is that he's so tired that Jericho can beat him. I'm sure I mentioned that once or twice already.
Your entire point is debunked because even tired Hart can still go the distance and win.

Find a new argument
Ahhh so he likes getting likes getting the shit kicked out of him? I went to a club once where a pretty blonde'll smack you in the nuts with a boat paddle for $20. Think Bret's been there?
This sign of a desperate man, making stupid comments that have nothing to do with anything
When those three include a fall down drunk, a coke fiend and a guy that got his ass handed to him by Lawrence Taylor, then yes. Absolutely.
IF we're talking Primes Halls addiction wasn't prominant, Hennig wasn't a coke fiend And BBB was dominating guys left and right. Hart beat them all

Prime Hal, Hennig Bigelow > Prime Rock
See post above. At the end of the day, Hall is still a fall down drunk, Hennig is a coke fiend and pillhead and Bigelow will still always be remembered as the man that was made into man-bitch by LT.
See post above. Not in their Primes when Hart beat them
Again, is that the same thing as penisy?
agian :disappointed:
Don't judge a match on how many voters the other person got....ummm isn't that sorta part of the point of the tourney to begin with? I mean, I was under the impression votes in the tourney determined how far a guy went in the tourney.
I'l give you this one. I'm lucky it has nothingto do with the Bret Vs jericho argument
Uh huh, sure do. I also remember Jericho helping the Brooklyn Brawler beat Triple H. See, the guy's a giver.
You get this one to. Again I'm lucky
A little's all you need when your opponent's just been in a match that took him to the limit.
Except when that opponent is Bret Hart and does well if not better when he's tired and winded
Yep, sure did. Didn't have nearly as much trouble doing it as Bret did either.
you get this one to.
Oh I dunno, they did pretty well for themselves. The Elite Eight is nothin' to sneeze at. That means, by this tourney, they're one of the eight best right? Nothin' to be ashamed of.
Again thisvone is yours
Maybe. But we're not on equal footing again. That's the whole point of the round's rules I think.
you cna have this one as well
Did it give him wiiings??? He'll probably need 'em to get away from the royal shitkicking he's about to receive, the tired old man.
Again the words of a man with no decent argument
Nope, if he had Influenza then he'd have a valid excuse. "My tank's outta air" won't cut it I'm afraid.
except his tank isn't out of air
You mean the same guy that lost the WCW United States Championship in Feb 1999 to broken down, 45 year old Roddy Piper? Then naw, I can't say I'm confident in Bret's chances agains a fresh guy that's been in top physical form his whole career. Even now, Jericho's pushin' 40 and looks like he's 30.
WCW was orgasming over all the old Legends back then of course they would have Piper go over Hart. Don't hold that against him.
 
In fact, I do remember it. Quite well...I was there.

Bret v Owen was a classic match. There's no denying that. But, Bret v. Yoko could be one of the worst 'Mania main events ever, if it wasn't topped (or bottomed?) the following year by LT v. Bam Bam. The match was really only cheered because Piper was in the ring, and because Yoko lost. It never got going, was never exciting, and bored a lot of us to tears. Owen is no Rock, and Yoko is certainly no Jericho.

Jericho wins this.

So Jericho wins because Bret Hart had to wrestle with a 650lbs man? I am not really sure of this logic here NSL. Also, I think the worst main even happened at 9, another main event that had Yokozuna at the top of the card.
 
So Jericho wins because Bret Hart had to wrestle with a 650lbs man? I am not really sure of this logic here NSL. Also, I think the worst main even happened at 9, another main event that had Yokozuna at the top of the card.

No, Jericho wins because Bret is going to beat at this point, and simply won't be able to keep up with him. If they were at even strength, they could go move for move with each other all night. But, they're not. Jericho schooled RVD, while Bret was having a 5-star match with Rocky. Bret will start this off as a great match, but once Jericho gets a string of moves together, this is over. He's too fast for Bret to keep up with if he isn't 100%. I don't remember Bret fighting anyone as fast and athletic as Jericho while he was in the main event. And, don't give me Michaels, because Michaels is not faster or more athletic than Jericho.
 
No, Jericho wins because Bret is going to beat at this point, and simply won't be able to keep up with him. If they were at even strength, they could go move for move with each other all night. But, they're not. Jericho schooled RVD, while Bret was having a 5-star match with Rocky. Bret will start this off as a great match, but once Jericho gets a string of moves together, this is over. He's too fast for Bret to keep up with if he isn't 100%. I don't remember Bret fighting anyone as fast and athletic as Jericho while he was in the main event. And, don't give me Michaels, because Michaels is not faster or more athletic than Jericho.

I just remember Michaels beating Jericho when he was quite aged at a Wrestlemania 6 years ago, but yeah, I see your point.[/sarcasm]

What makes Jericho more athletic than Bret? Bret has the amateur background, I am sure he was in great shape in his prime.

As for the wear and tear argument, I still don't see how Hart is tired out.

Go watch a RVD match, and tell me JEricho isn't tired from countering that man all night.
 
I just remember Michaels beating Jericho when he was quite aged at a Wrestlemania 6 years ago, but yeah, I see your point.[/sarcasm]

What makes Jericho more athletic than Bret? Bret has the amateur background, I am sure he was in great shape in his prime.

As for the wear and tear argument, I still don't see how Hart is tired out.

Go watch a RVD match, and tell me JEricho isn't tired from countering that man all night.

I've seen RVD v. Jerry Lynn fight for 30 minutes live, and Lynn wasn't winded afterwards. If Lynn wasn't, Jericho wouldn't be. When you're conditioned for that kind of wrestling, you don't get tired doing it. You get tired from everything else. Adrenaline carries you through most of the match, and then you barely feel it when it's over.

And, I fully expect this post to come back and bite me in the ass when Jericho faces Taker...Because yes, this match would totally sap Jericho, and leave him as easy pickings in the next round.
 
Don't you mean for Edge when he takes on Hart? ;)

Though I will not give up the point that Bret Hart comes into this match with little more than a sweat and a heart that is pumping at full speed, I will say this.

Bret Hart is probably the smarted guy to get into the ring ever. He will know what his body is at, and he will find other ways to beat Jericho. He will target Jericho's legs, take out his back, or whatever he believes is weakest, and will pick them apart. A couple minutes locked in the sharpshooter if it does not defeat Jericho, it will make him more worn out than anything that the Rock did to Hart.
 
He's too fast for Bret to keep up with if he isn't 100%. I don't remember Bret fighting anyone as fast and athletic as Jericho while he was in the main event. And, don't give me Michaels, because Michaels is not faster or more athletic than Jericho.

Roffle, Michaels at his best is far quicker and more athletic than Jericho. You don't know what you're talking about.
Bret is stronger, quicker, smarter and the guy had stamina to burn. Jericho is outclassed in every single department and there's no way he wins this, regardless of your bullshit stamina argument.
I'd like to hear your reply, in what way is Jericho better than Hart?
 
The greatest wrestler of all time gets my vote - Bret "The Hitman" Hart.

Forget his last match with the Rock - as stated numerous times - endurance is not an issue. Whether it was the KOTR tourney or the Ironman at 'Mania, Hart will have the stamina to push forward.

This one comes down to finishing moves, and I'm going to discount the Codebreaker and compare the Sharpshooter to the Walls of Jericho. We're destined to see each of these finishers at some point during the match and I just don't see Bret Hart giving up. Jericho is no Stone Cold so he's not going to withstand the Sharpshooter until he passes out (ala Stone Cold), and I think Bret's bread and butter secures the "W".

The Best There Is, The Best There Was and The Best There Ever Will Be !!!!
 
I think that given Jericho has the biggest squashing of RVD of the previous round, he's got the best chance go through to the final.

Are we actually supposed to vote based off of how close the vote count was or how close we think the match would have been?

Because the voting was pretty one-sided, but I know even if Jericho beat RVD in RVD's prime, RVD would have made Jericho go 30+ minutes for the win in a VERY tight and difficult match. So is there a standard for which I'm supposed to be voting on or is that at my discretion?
 
In my opinion, getting 75% of the vote means that it was a pretty one sided match, and the fact that Hart and Rock came down to a few votes means it was an absolute bloodbath. Overall, I think that Hart and Jericho are pretty equal. Hart may be a little stronger, but Jericho is quicker.

It is a very tough match to call, but I'm giving it to Jericho based on the fact that he'll be fresher coming into the match and always seems to find a way to pull out the win in a big match.
 
God damn, I don't know. People have been bringing up the great point that Hart has more endurance than anybody has any business having, but at the same time, endurance is a factor. If Jericho vs RVD was as lopsided as the votes indicated, I'd vote Jericho, but the problem with that is the voting slant doesn't mean anything. Jericho should have won that match, and 75% of people realised it and voted him. That doesn't mean he dominated 75% of the match however. RVD vs Jericho would have been just as close as Hart vs Rock, so I don't believe either man is much more rested than the other. However, with the same amount of rest, Hart wins, because of his vastly superior endurance. All in all, Jericho and Hart are both in my top 3 favortie wrestlers, so I may vote either way, but i have to lean towards the Hitman.
 
Most of the pro-Jericho arguments I've seen is that Jericho is going to be fresher than Hart. It's not like RVD is some jobber who Jericho squashed with ease. Bret has won these type of tournaments before and of course you can counter the argument stating that Jericho has beaten Austin and Rock. Fact of the matter is that Bret had to beat 3 guys, all wrestling different styles. Jericho hasn't won King of the Ring and if he does get past Hart, the Austin/Rock argument would be useless because he only faced those two. Who says that he doesn't have the endurance to beat 3 guys?

I'm going with Bret because he is better than Jericho. It will be a great back-and-forth match but at the end, Jericho will be tapping out to the Sharpshooter.
 
This match pits one of my favorite wrestlers of all-time against one of the wrestlers that I hate more than any other. It's the Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla against the Excellence of Execution, Chris Jericho against Bret Hart. I've promised TM that I would judge this fairly and be unbiased, thus I am going to examine all aspects of professional wrestling: accomplishments, physical attributes, etc.

Physical Attributes​

This is the most straightforward category of all things I'm judging by. I'm a firm believer that physical strength, speed, stamina, etc. is a deciding factor in a match. After all, in the WWE, commentators, and by commentators I mean Vince yelling in their ears, heavily push physicality. They emphasize Cena's strength, Mysterio's speed, and Show's size. Thus, in deciding the victor of a match, I will do the same. Bret Hart is billed at 6'1 and 234 lbs. and slightly larger than the 5'11, 225 lb. Chris Jericho. With both in their physical primes, I'd say they were both in top physical condition. They're built very similarly and it's hard to say who has a strength advantage. I think it's a push. Neither man's size will be a deterrent to the other, meaning both mean will be able to utilize their entire moveset.

I have to give speed and agility to Chris Jericho. He worked a faster paced style and did much more to show off his agility, things such as the Lionsault. Bret Hart, no doubt, is fast and agile, but his style of wrestling was a much slower style than Jericho's. Not to say there is anything wrong with it, but from my experience, I haven't seen anything from the Hitman, other than the great shape he was in, to evidence any extraordinary speed or agility.

I'd say that Hart has a small edge in toughness, locking horns with Stone Cold at WrestleMania 13 proving that. Chris Jericho is, without a doubt, tough. He's won hard fought battles against The Rock and other hard hitters and he's been involved in his fair share of hardcore matches. I'm still giving an edge to the Hitman. After all, if my brother pee'd in my mouth in the shower, I'd be tough too. Neither man, to my knowledge, has had any major injuries to date, therefore durability won't factor into this match.

I'll address stamina in the next category. I don't think I've missed any physical qualities. I don't think either man holds the edge here. Chris Jericho and Bret Hart are as close to equals physically as you could find.

Previous Match

Chris Jericho just overcame The Whole Fuckin Show, Rob Van Dam. He's a wild one, and Jericho would have had trouble with his unorthodox offense. The kicks to the legs would surely slow Chris Jericho down and give Bret Hart a point to work from. Chris Jericho is also sure to be dizzied; two or three roundhouse kicks to the back of the head will have certainly taken a toll. You can also make bet that a frog splash came into play. Jericho could be winded still.

On the other side of the ring, you have Bret Hart coming off a victory against The Great One. The Rock uses moves like the Spinebuster, Samoan Drop, Scoop Slam, Snap Overhead Belly to Belly Suplex and the DDT to wear his opponent down. Every one of those moves is high-impact, most driving the back into the mat and wearing down the body as a whole. If you couple that with The Rock Bottom and People's Elbow, then Bret Hart is going to have a sore lower back, which plays right in to Jericho's hands (Walls), and be fairly drained in general. If you've ever seen The Rock wrestle, you would know that he is nigh impossible to put away. Bret Hart would have had to go for an extended period of time, exerting a high level of energy.

It's not debatable; The Rock is a harder opponent to face than Rob Van Dam. Bret Hart had a tougher match up and is going into this match more worn down than Chris Jericho. It isn't that Bret Hart isn't going to be capable of wrestling, but he's not going to be capable of wrestling at his highest level. Then again, Bret Hart on his worst day is still better than most.

Style of Wrestling​

Bret Hart, as has been mentioned in every one of his matches thus far, is an outstanding technical wrestler. That has been enough to carry him to this point. Bret Hart is good at wearing down a wrestler and targeting weaknesses, then finishing up the match with a sharpshooter. Conversely, Chris Jericho does a lot of the same. He works the back and sets up for the Walls of Jericho. I see a lot of Bret Hart in Chris Jericho. To be honest though, I'm not one of those that takes the style of wrestling into account. To me, it doesn't matter if you brawl, fly, ground and pound, mat-wrestle, or whatever as long as you are effective in doing so and win matches. For the sake of argument, though, I'd say that Bret Hart is the better technical wrestler and brawler, but Jericho is more versatile, has a larger moveset, and is the jack of all trades.

Finishers​

Bret Hart's two most commonly used finishers are the Piledriver and the Sharpshooter. Hart is world renowned for his use and perfection of the Sharpshooter. You'd say that the greatest names in the business fell to it, but as I think about it, did they? The most notable name to fall to the Sharpshooter, I believe, was "Stone Cold" Steve Austin. Of course, that was a Steve Austin that was just getting ready to come into his prime and passing out in the Sharpshooter was one of the last stepping stones on the path to greatness. Others such as Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Papa Shango, Mr. Perfect, and an over the hill Bob Backlund. I'm really trying to be impartial here, but for someone who is said to have put down the best with the Sharpshooter, his list of victims doesn't jump out at you. As for the piledriver, well... it wasn't really anything. I'm going to declare it fair to say that The Walls of Jericho is on an equal level as the Sharpshooter. Chris Jericho's Codebreaker put's Hart's Piledriver to shame, though. It's unpredictable, can be pulled in the most desperate of situations, and could knock an opponent out whenever hit. It's a truly dangerous move. Chris Jericho has the advantage when it comes to finishers.

Experience​

In every sport, experience comes in to play. The Magic were whooping boys for the Lakers in the finals this year. I believe the Magic were more talented. The only problem was lack of experience. Bret Hart had a longer career than Chris Jericho. Does it make a difference in this match? Not the slightest amount. Both men have been here. They've wrestled more than one match a night and been successful. They know the ins and outs of the ring and could navigate it blindfolded. They are both great with counters and not giving opponents openings and neither often make mistakes. This is another push.

Accomplishments​

If I'm going to examine most aspects of professional wrestling, I cannot exclude accomplishments. Chris Jericho is officially a five-time world champion. (2x WCW Champion, WWE Undisputed Champion, and a 2x WHC) He also pinned Triple H for the WWE Championship, but the decision was reversed weeks later and the reign is not recognized. Chris Jericho is the greatest Intercontinental Champion (Though TM would argue for Santino. ;)) of all-time, being the current and nine-time holder of the belt. He's had multiple tag-team championships and other mid-card belts along with a cruiserweight title or two. Bret Hart has similar accomplishments, winning five world championships in the WWF and two in WCW, also with an array of lower-card belts.

Both wrestlers are very decorated, one already a Hall of Famer and another an essential lock. By the time Chris Jericho is ready to hang them up, they'll likely be arm and arm when it comes to world titles. Jericho has more misc. belts, but they are easier to come by now. This is developing into a very close match as I'm calling this one a push as well.

Miscellanious: Mic Skills, Ring-Work, Entertainment Value

Bret Hart may well be the greatest in ring worker of all time. He was a master of ring psychology and storytelling and took spectacular care of his opponent, supposedly never injuring another man within the squared circle. In this aspect, Chris Jericho is far and above the level of the average wrestler. That being said, he can't compare to Bret Hart.

Outside of the ring, Bret Hart is very bland. He's never been able to capture my attention on the mic and I feel he lacks charisma. Then you have Chris Jericho, the man that has crafted two of the most entertaining feuds of the last two years, has been able to reinvent his character completely, always is entertaining on the stick and makes the fans care about him one way or the other. The ways Chris Jericho finds to stay over with the crowd are outstanding. He's one of the most versatile superstars in the history of this great business.

Summary

Chris Jericho and Bret Hart are physically as similar as you can find. Bret has an ever so small strength advantage and gives up an ounce in speed and quickness. Both men are well versed in multiple styles of wrestling and can adapt to most every situation. They're very decorated and have had illustrious careers that I would have cut my own dick off to have. (Well, maybe.) Both can put on incredible matches. This is one of the hardest matches for me to vote for in this tournament.

My Vote​

While I'll give you that Bret Hart has more 5-star matches to his name, a technical master (where as Chris is the jack of all trades and the master of none), one of the greatest of all time, and a superstar I've gained a new sense of appreciation for, I still give this match to Chris Jericho. Trust me, this was one of the hardest to call yet. I just think that a fresher Jericho will be able to take advantage of Hart's sure to be worked over back will secure the win. On top of that, he's been the wrestler that has entertained me more than any other wrestler has and that locked in my vote.

I'd encourage you to vote for Chris Jericho, but will not condemn a vote for Bret Hart.

Edit: Formatting errors.
 
I hate the argument that "Wrestler A had an easier match in the previous round than Wrestler B, so Wrestler A will win". Where does it say that we should look at the votes to see how close the match was? Jericho and RVD have fought many times, and every time it was very close, with RVD winning most of their matches. Are we now supposed to think that it was a squash?

And another thing for people who are making this argument, do you even watch wrestling? In wrestling, when one wrestler (usually the face, like Hart would be in this match) goes into a match more beat up than his opponent (usually the heel, like Jericho would be in this match), how often do they end up winning? The answer is quite a lot. That is what happens in wrestling, wrestlers overcome sometimes insurmountable odds to win matches, and the odds for this match for Bret Hart are far from insurmountable. Bret Hart has overcome bigger odds than a slightly fresher Chris Jericho.

I'm really trying to be impartial here, but for someone who is said to have put down the best with the Sharpshooter, his list of victims doesn't jump out at you.

Mr. Perfect, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Steve Austin, Randy Savage, Sting and Chris Benoit are not big enough names for you? They all fell to Hart's Sharpshooter.

As for the piledriver, well... it wasn't really anything.
Hart never used the piledriver as a finisher in WWE, certainly not for any long period of time anyway.

I'm going to declare it fair to say that The Walls of Jericho is on an equal level as the Sharpshooter.

This has got to be a joke, right? Hart's Sharpshooter has a far bigger success rate than Jericho's Walls of Jericho, I don't even remember the last time Jericho won a match with that move.

Chris Jericho's Codebreaker put's Hart's Piledriver to shame, though.
See above, Hart never used the piledriver as a finishing move in WWE. The codebreaker's alright, Hart would kick out of it.

Chris Jericho has the advantage when it comes to finishers.

No, he doesn't.

Chris Jericho is officially a five-time world champion.

With a whopping average reign of 36 days.

Jericho is one of the worst world champions of this decade. He is also one of the least believable main eventers in WWE history. Which is why he always finds a way to go back to the midcard, where he belongs. Hart was a far better world champion than Jericho.

Chris Jericho is the greatest Intercontinental Champion of all-time, being the current and nine-time holder of the belt.

:lmao::lmao:!!!

I would struggle to put him the top 10 greatest Intercontinental Champions of all time. An average reign of 34 days is hardly something to be proud of. He's done nothing memorable as champion. Hart was a way better IC champion than Jericho, having 3 of the best IC title matches of all time, and giving that title tons of credibility.

Fuck the number of reigns, it's the quality that matters. And the quality of Jericho's reigns as both world and IC champion were mostly shit. Hart's tag team and IC reigns > all of Jericho's midcard reigns put together.

Outside of the ring, Bret Hart is very bland. He's never been able to capture my attention on the mic and I feel he lacks charisma.

I disagree completely. How could someone so bland have such a large worldwide fanbase? Hart was actually pretty good on the mic, and was quite charismatic. In 1997 he was great on the mic, and had some very memorable promos. Although I do concede that Jericho is better on the mic. It's probably the only thing that Jericho is better than Hart at.

Jericho is a good wrestler, no doubt about it. He always plays his character well, and is great on the mic. But he is nowhere near as good as Hart, overall as a professional wrestler. With the exception of Jericho/HBK from WM19, I wouldn't say that any of Jericho's best matches are as good as Hart's top 10 or 15 best matches. Jericho is also a sloppy worker and is often a poor seller of moves, which is the complete opposite to Hart. Hart has made a bigger impact, is more popular, had better matches, was a better champion, and was overall a far better worker. Hart should win.
 
In my opinion, getting 75% of the vote means that it was a pretty one sided match, and the fact that Hart and Rock came down to a few votes means it was an absolute bloodbath. Overall, I think that Hart and Jericho are pretty equal. Hart may be a little stronger, but Jericho is quicker.

It is a very tough match to call, but I'm giving it to Jericho based on the fact that he'll be fresher coming into the match and always seems to find a way to pull out the win in a big match.

I think that this statement is crap. One person getting 75% of the vote means that 75% of the voters thought he would have his hands raised in the end, not that he would carry 75% of the match. Otherwise, people should be looking at the vote count first, and then voting on who is carrying the action rather than who is actually winning. Sorry, but anyone who assumes this is not using any logic at all.
 
This would be a fantastic match, and I'm a huge fan of both men, but in the end this has to go to Hart. He's stronger, as agile, as quick, and has the better submission finisher. Y2J's terrific run ends here. What, simply, does he have to take the Hitman down? Hart would never tap to the Walls, and with his skill in rollups could well convert each Walls attempt into an inside cradle. But the sharpshooter could well be the undoing of Y2J. Plus, counter the codebreaker effectively and you have the guy perfectly set up for the sharpshooter.
 
This would be a fantastic match, and I'm a huge fan of both men, but in the end this has to go to Hart.

I disagree.

He's stronger,

They are about equal in strength, so I'll ignore that one.

as agile, as quick,

The agility and quickness are no contest. Jericho, in his prime in WCW, was keeping up with guys like Rey Mysterio Jr., Juventud Guerrera, Chavo Guerrero Jr., etc. while Hart had Shawn Michaels running circles around him. Plus, Hart is going to be tired after that match with the Rock, while Jericho had an easy time with RVD.

and has the better submission finisher.

This is debatable. In WCW, the Liontamer was about as deadly a finisher as you could find. Offhand, I can't remember anyone getting out of it if he had it securely locked in. Once he went to WWF, it became the Walls of Jericho, which is just a Boston Crab and it lost all credibility. The Sharpshooter is/was pretty deadly, but don't sell the Liontamer short.

Y2J's terrific run ends here.

Not if I can do anything about it :icon_biggrin:

What, simply, does he have to take the Hitman down?

Go up a few lines to where I talk about how good the Liontamer was.

Hart would never tap to the Walls, and with his skill in rollups could well convert each Walls attempt into an inside cradle.

Let's take a look at a match, shall we? Everyone seems to want to talk about how great of a technical wrestler Hart was. Here is a match between Jericho in his prime, and a man who may be the best technical wrestler ever: Dean Malenko, a man who is not only great at mat wrestling, but is quicker than Hart. Roll the tape:

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See? Once he locks in the Liontamer with his knee either on or right next to your head, there is no way out of the hold.

VOTE JERICHO
 
[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1149666]I disagree.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with you.

The agility and quickness are no contest. Jericho, in his prime in WCW, was keeping up with guys like Rey Mysterio Jr., Juventud Guerrera, Chavo Guerrero Jr., etc.
It's the highlighted part I am going to focus on. Jericho was mainly a mid carder in WCW. He was a Cruiserweight wrestler and a television champ at best. Hart's prime was in WWE where he would handle wrestlers like Jericho.
while Hart had Shawn Michaels running circles around him. Plus, Hart is going to be tired after that match with the Rock, while Jericho had an easy time with RVD.
I disagree, just because the RVD match wasn't voted for equally it doesnt mean it wasnt a close match. They've had some pretty heated battles in there time. Which were mostly won by RVD. SO that match could be considered close just hte majority is thinking Jericho could pull it out in the end.


This is debatable. In WCW, the Liontamer was about as deadly a finisher as you could find. Offhand, I can't remember anyone getting out of it if he had it securely locked in. Once he went to WWF, it became the Walls of Jericho, which is just a Boston Crab and it lost all credibility. The Sharpshooter is/was pretty deadly, but don't sell the Liontamer short.
Who was Jericho beating with the Liontamer in WCW? Guerrera? Yeah, the cruiserweight, mid card wrestler. Name em, and more than likely at the time they were mid card wrestlers.

Not if I can do anything about it :icon_biggrin:
hopefully you wont

Go up a few lines to where I talk about how good the Liontamer was.
Go up a few lines to where I talked about how it was beating mid card cruiserweights in WCW. Calling Juvi a mid carder is probably stretching it too.

Let's take a look at a match, shall we? Everyone seems to want to talk about how great of a technical wrestler Hart was. Here is a match between Jericho in his prime, and a man who may be the best technical wrestler ever: Dean Malenko, a man who is not only great at mat wrestling, but is quicker than Hart. Roll the tape:
Did you compare Bret the Hitman to Dean Malenko? No one really cared about Dean Malenko.

See? Once he locks in the Liontamer with his knee either on or right next to your head, there is no way out of the hold.
you can kick em. It's been done before.

I know you could have done better than this. You just compared an at best mid card run to a main eventer. There is no chance in hell Jericho would beat Bret Hart. Hart was the better professional wrestler, he would find a way to win. He would pick apart Jericho's weakness and eventually he would lock in the sharpshooter. Everyone, Vote Hart.
 
As close as I think his match would be, right now, I have to lean more toward giving it toward Hart, anyone remember who trained Jericho? uh huh yeah that's right Brets daddy, so that means Bret is likely gonna know what Jericho is capable of, not to mention Jericho wrestles a very similar style to HBK and guy Hart has been in the ring with many many times, bottom line Hart is gonna know what it takes to beat Jericho, and unless someone gives can provide a danm good argument as to why Y2J should move on, then my vote is going to Hart
 
I disagree with you.

That's cool. Life gets boring if everyone agrees all the time

It's the highlighted part I am going to focus on. Jericho was mainly a mid carder in WCW. He was a Cruiserweight wrestler and a television champ at best. Hart's prime was in WWE where he would handle wrestlers like Jericho.

I call it his prime because that is when he was the best wrestler. He wasn't necessarily booked the strongest, but WCW Jericho is much better than WWF/E Jericho.

I disagree, just because the RVD match wasn't voted for equally it doesnt mean it wasnt a close match. They've had some pretty heated battles in there time. Which were mostly won by RVD. SO that match could be considered close just hte majority is thinking Jericho could pull it out in the end.

I know that the RVD match would have been closer, but if this goes by the votes like I'm pretty sure it should/does, than Jericho walked all over Van Dam and is relatively rested. Hart, on the other hand, just went through World War 3 with the Rock and is probably sore and tired.

Who was Jericho beating with the Liontamer in WCW? Guerrera? Yeah, the cruiserweight, mid card wrestler. Name em, and more than likely at the time they were mid card wrestlers.

The cruiserweights were the best thing going 90% of the time in WCW. I'm sure other people would agree with me when I say that they were better than the main eventers. You can't honestly say that Scott Hall was a better wrestler than Rey Mysterio Jr.

hopefully you wont

I plan on trying.


Did you compare Bret the Hitman to Dean Malenko? No one really cared about Dean Malenko.

It doesn't matter if people cared. Dean Malenko is very comparable to Hart in style, and Jericho has defeated him many times. Plus, I don't think Hart knows 1,000 moves, much less 1,004 :lmao:

you can kick em. It's been done before.

He might be able to do that once, but not more than that. Remember, he's just gotten done taking all of the Rock's high impact offense, most of which, including the Rock Bottom which I'm sure he received one of, focus on the back. He's already been softened up where he needs to be for the Liontamer to do its job.

I know you could have done better than this. You just compared an at best mid card run to a main eventer. There is no chance in hell Jericho would beat Bret Hart. Hart was the better professional wrestler, he would find a way to win. He would pick apart Jericho's weakness and eventually he would lock in the sharpshooter. Everyone, Vote Hart.

The only advantage I see is a small strength advantage, maybe, and a little bit of a technical edge. Hart will be facing a fresh man after Hart himself went through a war. The Hitman will put up a fight, but will end up tapping to the Liontamer in the center of the ring.
 
As close as I think his match would be, right now, I have to lean more toward giving it toward Hart, anyone remember who trained Jericho? uh huh yeah that's right Brets daddy, so that means Bret is likely gonna know what Jericho is capable of, not to mention Jericho wrestles a very similar style to HBK and guy Hart has been in the ring with many many times, bottom line Hart is gonna know what it takes to beat Jericho, and unless someone gives can provide a danm good argument as to why Y2J should move on, then my vote is going to Hart

Hart and HBK had a match where they faced each other and were both tired once. And I'm pretty sure that the man you compared to Jericho, Michaels, won that match. Hart is more tired than Jericho, is slower to begin with, and has been softened up by the Rock. Jericho will run circles around Hart until he locks in the Liontamer. Vote Jericho
 
75% of the vote in any election signifies a pretty easy win. But it's cool, your form of logic can tell you whatever it wants to.

I think this match boils down to three things. First of all, both Jericho and Bret Hart have had some of their greatest moments in formats where they are tested multiple times. Bret Hart, of course was the first King of the Ring, in the modern era. That would serve him well in the finals, however, in nights that the competitors have had two matches, Chris Jericho has had the greatest night. He defeated Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night, and both of them in title matches. His past experience in this kind of high pressure environment will aid him on this night.

Secondly, when we analyze the two wrestlers abilities in the ring, I think we can come to the conclusion that this is closer than we think. hart is superior on the ground, but Jericho is very close in skill level. Jericho, I believe is better standing up. I think he has the power advantage as well. Quickness is another category in which Jericho excels. That being said, the distance between the two is not great, and it could be argued either way. The longer the match goes, I think Hart is favored. If the match starts quickly, Jericho could come away with a quick pin. In a fast paced match, Hart is more likely to make a mistake, which would lead to a codebreaker. In a slower match, Hart's ability to always keep his man in front of him would be beneficial.

Hart's best chance lies in Jericho's propensity to miss the lionsault. Jericho misses this move more than he hits it. The effects are deadly, but if he misses, that couple of seconds would give Hart a great chance to capitalize and keep the match on the ground.

I think Hart is better at countering too. This is a great advantage. Hart struggled in the last match because The Rock doesn't use many wrestling moves. The Rock relies on strikes. Hart has to dodge and then counter, and The Rock's quickness was troublesome. Jericho, on the other hand, is a technician. He will use less strikes, giving Hart more chances to counter.

It is from one of those counters that I believe Hart will get the win. A missed codebreaker near the ropes will leave Hart standing and Jericho on the ground, stunned, with his legs up. Sharpshooter and goodnight!
 
[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1149743]That's cool. Life gets boring if everyone agrees all the time[/QUOTE]
Yep

I call it his prime because that is when he was the best wrestler. He wasn't necessarily booked the strongest, but WCW Jericho is much better than WWF/E Jericho.

He was at best as a mid carder so you have him going over a Main Eventer? That makes no sense. Jericho is lucky to have gotten this far. Jericho is nothing more than an upper mid card wrestler. Also, the Jericho in the WWE has world title reigns, and if i recall he did not have a single one in WCW. So logically he was better in the WWE. Still nothing more than a mid card wrestler throughout his run in the WWE.

I know that the RVD match would have been closer, but if this goes by the votes like I'm pretty sure it should/does, than Jericho walked all over Van Dam and is relatively rested.
No, I believe the one poster said it best, just because it wasn't contested equally doesn't mean it wasn't a tough battle. It just means the majority believes in the end Jericho would have beaten RVD.
Hart, on the other hand, just went through World War 3 with the Rock and is probably sore and tired.
And so did Jericho.

The cruiserweights were the best thing going 90% of the time in WCW. I'm sure other people would agree with me when I say that they were better than the main eventers. You can't honestly say that Scott Hall was a better wrestler than Rey Mysterio Jr.

I never really said that, but the cruiserweights weren't headlining big Pay Per Views. So, they were nothing but lower card wrestlers, and like I stated before Hart isnt a lower card wrestler. Wrestlers like Hart hardly ever lost to mid card wrestlers, especially during their primes.

I plan on trying.
meh


It doesn't matter if people cared. Dean Malenko is very comparable to Hart in style, and Jericho has defeated him many times. Plus, I don't think Hart knows 1,000 moves, much less 1,004 :lmao:
Yes it matters if people cared. Dean Malenko has done nothing in comparison to Hart at the main event level. Malenko might be able to do 50000243324354656 holds but that doesn't mean he is similar to Bret Hart.


He might be able to do that once, but not more than that. Remember, he's just gotten done taking all of the Rock's high impact offense, most of which, including the Rock Bottom which I'm sure he received one of, focus on the back. He's already been softened up where he needs to be for the Liontamer to do its job.
and I am pretty sure RVD executed some of his high flying offense which would soften up a mid card wrestler like Jericho. At least enough to lock on the sharpshooter or work on a weak piece of the body.


The only advantage I see is a small strength advantage, maybe, and a little bit of a technical edge. Hart will be facing a fresh man after Hart himself went through a war. The Hitman will put up a fight, but will end up tapping to the Liontamer in the center of the ring.
Lies, you can't use the previous bout with The Rock. It isn't like Harts never gone through hell in a match. He has the stamina and endurance to endure Jericho's mid card offense. RVD would soften up Jeribore just enough for Hart to lock in the Sharpshooter and make Jeribore tap like the bitch he is...
 
It's a tough one this. While Jericho is one of my favourite performers, and while I think that Bret Hart is a vastly overrated superstar, I still think Bret is arguably better.

Bret Hart won the most lacklustre King of the Ring crown ever, absolutely without question in 1991, but he won quite a stacked tournament in 1993. However, it is absolutely nothing on what Jericho acheived against Steve Austin and The Rock. However, what is important about Bret Hart is that he generally beat the opponents that he should have beaten.

Jericho has been wildly inconsistent with who he has beaten: he lost to a very green John Cena just months after dropping the title to Triple H.

For me, this goes down to how they have done against similar wrestlers. Chris Jericho uses the ropes for springboard moves, darts about the ring and used a submission finisher for a long time, similar to Owen Hart. Owen beat Bret, fair and square, however it was by a roll up.

Hart is, in many ways, similar to Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit. Both of these men have beaten jericho more than he has beaten them, so I think purely based on that, I shall be voting Bret Hart, with little conviction.
 
If Jericho can take out the greatest wrestler ever (that would be RVD, kids) in the last round with ease, surely he can get past Bret Hart in this round. Yes, Bret Hart was a great wrestler, but Jericho is just better. In this scenerio, Jericho is coming off of a match that was basically a squash and Hart is coming off of a much tougher match. By logic, Jericho will be the fresher of the two men.

Jericho moves on.
 

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