TNA Region Finals: Chris Jericho vs. Rob Van Dam

[Coco]

Unbelievalbe that we're at the point that the guy who rolls around on the mat the most is now the better PRO WRESTLER. Sorry, not so. RVD played his role in pro wrestling perfectly, pulling the crowd into most of his matches more than they Jericho could at times and doing the "face in trouble" thing better than most of the WWE roster today. To call RVD a bad wrestler shows a lack of understanding regarding what's expected of pro wrestling.

People give RVD so much uncalled for crap. It's disgusting.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1135972] You're joking right? RVD's moveset was made up of kicks and high-flying moves. He is a martial artist, not a wrestler. A better striker or brawler, yes. Wrestler, no. Jericho, on the other hand, kept up in a feud with one of the greatest pure wresters in recent memory, Dean Malenko. Saying that RVD could out-wrestle anyone in the tournament is absolutely ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

If you're saying that striking and brawling is not wrestling, then Austin wouldn't be as good as he is. He was a striker and brawler for most of his career and I say he was pretty successful. RVD always put on great matches and got the crowd involved and he doesn't deserve all the hate he gets. Everybody remembers how Jericho was the first undisputed champion but I bet RVD's title reign will be more remembered because Jericho didn't do much with that opportunity.

In ten years, people will still know that RVD cashed in on John Cena at One Night Stand in 2006 in one of the most memorable matches in the past ten years. We will still know about Jericho beating Stone Cold and Rock in the same night, but I bet 90% don't know what pay-per-view or what year.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Unbelievalbe that we're at the point that the guy who rolls around on the mat the most is now the better PRO WRESTLER. Sorry, not so. RVD played his role in pro wrestling perfectly, pulling the crowd into most of his matches more than they Jericho could at times and doing the "face in trouble" thing better than most of the WWE roster today. To call RVD a bad wrestler shows a lack of understanding regarding what's expected of pro wrestling.

People give RVD so much uncalled for crap. It's disgusting.

I agree that RVD was a very good pro wrestler. But, as far as real wrestling, aka technical wrestling goes, RVD was not that good. I will give you the fact that Van Dam was a very good pro wrestler, but saying he was a better "wrestler" than Jericho is ridiculous.

If you're saying that striking and brawling is not wrestling, then Austin wouldn't be as good as he is. He was a striker and brawler for most of his career and I say he was pretty successful. RVD always put on great matches and got the crowd involved and he doesn't deserve all the hate he gets. Everybody remembers how Jericho was the first undisputed champion but I bet RVD's title reign will be more remembered because Jericho didn't do much with that opportunity.

In ten years, people will still know that RVD cashed in on John Cena at One Night Stand in 2006 in one of the most memorable matches in the past ten years. We will still know about Jericho beating Stone Cold and Rock in the same night, but I bet 90% don't know what pay-per-view or what year.

Striking and brawling aren't wrestling, they are fighting. After the neck injury, Austin didn't wrestle, he fought. As far as the title reigns go, beating the Rock and Stone Cold is much, much more impressive than beating and out of his element Cena. As far as the reigns go, a 3 month reign culminating in a Wrestlemania match is more remarkable than a 3 week reign that ended on an episode of Raw.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1136785]I agree that RVD was a very good pro wrestler. But, as far as real wrestling, aka technical wrestling goes, RVD was not that good. I will give you the fact that Van Dam was a very good pro wrestler, but saying he was a better "wrestler" than Jericho is ridiculous.



Striking and brawling aren't wrestling, they are fighting. After the neck injury, Austin didn't wrestle, he fought. As far as the title reigns go, beating the Rock and Stone Cold is much, much more impressive than beating and out of his element Cena. As far as the reigns go, a 3 month reign culminating in a Wrestlemania match is more remarkable than a 3 week reign that ended on an episode of Raw.[/QUOTE]

I'll take the buildup and the reign of RVD's rather than Jericho's. What is actually remarkable about Jericho's reign after he won it. The buildup was more about HHH and Stephanie's divorce more than it was the actual title and the match was average at best.

The buildup to RVD/Cena was great and their match was ten times better than HHH/Jericho regardless of it taking place at Wrestlemania. The crowd was solely against Cena and he showed heel tendecies even though he's a babyface. I'll consider RVD's win more memorable than Jericho's any day of the week.

 

[Thriller Ant]

What about the fact that he beat The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin in the same night? That is two other members of the final 8 of this tournament in a single night. The RVD/Cena match was good, but you cannot honestly say that you are more impressed by Van Dam beating an out of his element Cena than Jericho beating Austin and the Rock. And while you may not think the Jericho/HHH match was that good, at least Jericho got to defend his title at Wrestlemania, unlike RVD who never defended his on a single PPV.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1136815]What about the fact that he beat The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin in the same night? That is two other members of the final 8 of this tournament in a single night. The RVD/Cena match was good, but you cannot honestly say that you are more impressed by Van Dam beating an out of his element Cena than Jericho beating Austin and the Rock. And while you may not think the Jericho/HHH match was that good, at least Jericho got to defend his title at Wrestlemania, unlike RVD who never defended his on a single PPV.[/QUOTE]

Au contraire, RVD defended his title against Edge at Vengeance in one of the best matches of 2006. I don't believe that Cena was out of his element when he faced Van Dam. Cena has faced hostile crowds before and basically that was it. Sure Edge gave Cena a spear but there was interference on behalf of Y2J's as well.

Most of the arguments I've heard pro-Jericho is about him defeating Austin and Rock in the same night. None of his title reigns (World or Intercontinental) have been really memorable so I'm wondering is that something to stand on. Would that accomplishment hold the same level if Kurt Angle had won that undisputed championship instead? Angle would have beaten Austin and Jericho, but would we say that it was worse, the same, or better if we consider Austin and Rock better than Jericho?

 

[Thriller Ant]

Au contraire, RVD defended his title against Edge at Vengeance in one of the best matches of 2006. I don't believe that Cena was out of his element when he faced Van Dam. Cena has faced hostile crowds before and basically that was it. Sure Edge gave Cena a spear but there was interference on behalf of Y2J's as well.

Most of the arguments I've heard pro-Jericho is about him defeating Austin and Rock in the same night. None of his title reigns (World or Intercontinental) have been really memorable so I'm wondering is that something to stand on. Would that accomplishment hold the same level if Kurt Angle had won that undisputed championship instead? Angle would have beaten Austin and Jericho, but would we say that it was worse, the same, or better if we consider Austin and Rock better than Jericho?

Sorry, I didn't realize there was a PPV during the 3 weeks he was champ. It was more than just the hostile crowd though. It was Cena's first ever ECW style match, and it was against an ECW Original. Cena never had a chance.

As for the title reigns not being memorable, at least he has had reigns to discuss. The only reigns RVD had of note were the WWE title reign for 3 weeks and the nearly 2 year ECW TV Title reign. He also had the IC Title 6 times. Jericho was Undisputed Champion, he had the World Title reign at the end of last year, a 3 month WCW TV Title reign, and the most Intercontinental Title reigns in history.

 

[Coco]

It's not like Jericho's Intercontinental Championship runs were all that and a bag of chips. He had a reign in 2002 where he held it for about three weeks before dropping to Kane. In 2004, he won the belt at Unforgiven and lost at Taboo Tuesday... to Shelton Benjamin (lulz). Last year, he rarely defended the belt... and it was even more uncommon to see him walking around with the belt. And don't get me started about 2003... when he needed Bischoff's help to beat RVD, and then RVD took the belt back within ten minutes in a cage.

His two world title reigns last year were awful too. One proper title defense before losing the belt to Batista. It was almost like RVD's world title reign. God, Jericho must really suck!

Oh, and his second title run last year saw him lose the belt on his first defense. Yeah. Jericho is sooooo much better than that RVD. Can we get off Jericho's cock now?

Additionally, as much as you want to get on Van Dam about how quick he lost the belt, have you looked at the week he had before he lost the belt on Raw? He was less than a week removed from a three day span where he had main event level singles matches against Edge, John Cena, and Kurt Angle, losing to none of them! Jericho never worked a span of matches like that before his GLORIOUS, MULTIPLE (!!) World title reigns concluded.

And for those of you who like to get on Van Dam for not being a good wrestler, I'd love for you smarkity smarks to explain why (Thanks to LJL from bringing this bout up) Van Dam's Vengeance match against Edge is way better than any match Jericho has had against Edge.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Comparing championships and reigns with these two won't solve anything since neither of them have been especially great champions overall. Most of Jericho's 9 reigns as IC champ haven't exactly been memorable, nor was RVD's WWE Championship reign. All that was memorable about it was the way it ended.

Now, the fact that Jericho beat Austin and the Rock in one night is of substance and of note. Whether anyone likes it or not, Jericho beat the two biggest draws in the WWF on the same night to win the WWF and WCW straps and unify them into the WWF Undisputed Championship. The reign itself might not have been memorable, but the way he won the title was.

As to RVD and his nearly two year run as ECW Television Champion...well what about it exactly? A LOT of greatness has been bestowed by the IWC retroactively to the old ECW. But, let's be honest, RVD as ECW TV Champion wasn't a major accomplishment at the time. The whole point of having a TV Champion is to have the champ appear and defend the belt on TV. With the old school ECW being piped into a few local markets for most of its existence, and the fact that it drew less than a 1.0 during it's horrible demise while running on TNN doesn't make the ECW TV strap much to brag about.

I wouldn't be horrified if RVD went over here. I think the fact that he's been out of the spotlight for roughly 2 years is one reason why he's losing by such a landslide. Another reason is that a lot of people don't see RVD as the incredible dynamo that the IWC's made him out to be. He was really good, but he wasn't that good.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

I absolutely cannot believe how one-sided this is. Chris Jericho has garnered 90 votes, over 75 percent of the total. Shocky would have to verify it, but I believe that's a record for this tournament this late in the game. This post isn't going to help anything, but I'm going to stick by my vote for Rob Van Dam.

Chris Jericho may be one of the most talented professional wrestlers in recent memory, and by talented I am talking about charisma, storytelling, ring-work, work ethic, mic skills, and believibility, but he has never, eeeeeevvveerrrrr, even in his prime, been a dominant wrestler. In the last year and a half, which is considered his prime by most, he's been pinned by Jeff Hardy, Kofi Kingston, Shawn Michaels, Batista, John Cena, and Rey Mysterio. Throughout his career, Jericho has also lost matches to Triple H, Goldberg, Christian, Shelton Benjamin, Lance Storm, and many other wrestlers who I haven't bothered to name. Now, there are some justifiable losses in there, but losses to Kofi Kingston and Shelton Benjamin stick out to me. Rob Van Dam was about as big as these two, just as athletic, strong, fast... and Jericho has never beaten them. Same thing here.

 

[X]

In the last year and a half, which is considered his prime by most

What? Who the hell considers right now to be his prime? He's toiling away in the midcard, anyone who thinks this is his prime is out of their mind.

His prime was definately from 2001-2004/2005. When he finally got main event status and some title reigns as well as some of his best matches.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that now is his prime.

 

[Tenta]

Sigh.... Looks like I'm going to have to try and woo 60 people to consecutively vote for Rob Van Dam.

This is merely a devil's advocate piece, as this match should be far closer than what we have in front of us right now. I'm not saying that Jericho shouldn't win this match, as much as I'm saying RVD is not getting nearly enough credit in this matter. RVD, at his kayfabe height, was one thing; consistent.

Now, before people jump down my throat, let me clarify exactly what I mean by consistent. My idea of Rob Van Dam's prime was when he was the ECW Television champion for twenty three months. Nearly two frickin' years, for God's sake. The fact that any man in the modern era held any title for almost two years, and had decent, if not great competition along the way, is miraculous. That simplt doesn't happen. And for that matter, RVD didn't even truly lose the belt, so much as he had to forfeit it due to a broken ankle. People can say what they want about Van Dam, but he single handedly carried ECW through it's toughest of periods. He, Tommy Dreamer, The Dudleys, and Raven are the only reason that ECW lasted for nearly as long as it did. RVD was always Heyman's golden goose, and he simply always had enthralling matches that left the ECW fans satisfied.

And consider the names that RVD defeated during this twenty three month stint: Lance Storm, Rhino, Jerry Lynn, Sabu, 2 Cold Scorpio, Tajiri, Super Crazy, Nova. Literally everyone that ECW had to offer at that point, RVD faced, and demolished all challengers. It got to the point that I felt ECW's TV Title was stronger than it's World Title. And most that watched ECW at this point, I'd assume, would agree with me.

Now, on to Chris Jericho, who is a very fine wrestler. Bt if there's one thing Chris Jericho has proven, it's that he is inconsistent. Yes, he's a multi-time World Champion. But he's also got some pretty embarassing losses on his record, too. Jericho seems to always have problems with agile wrestlers. Consider his loss to Kofi Kingston months back. And that's a man that works a pretty similar style to RVD. Jericho is a man that preys upon oppotunity. He takes moment's when they come, and is able to take advantage of situations that suit him best. Consider Unforgiven 2008. Sure, Jericho won the World Title. He was also pummeled to a bloody pulp by Shawn Michaels, and only proved the fact that he one of the most inconsistent wrestlers in the main event. The man is notorious for having a great month for himself at a wrestling standpoint, losing a match he shouldn't, and sliding back down the card a bit. He's liable to be caught by anyone at an inopportune time, and when he is, he winds up with a loss.

RVD has held every title there is to hold. He's a much better wrestler than people give him credit for. In short, this match is far closer than anyone will give a chance to say. I'll tip my hat to RVD, though at the moment, to little avail

 

[JGlass]

I'm not saying that Jericho shouldn't win this match, as much as I'm saying RVD is not getting nearly enough credit in this matter. RVD, at his kayfabe height, was one thing; consistent.

I suppose that's fair.

Now, on to Chris Jericho, who is a very fine wrestler. Bt if there's one thing Chris Jericho has proven, it's that he is inconsistent. Yes, he's a multi-time World Champion. But he's also got some pretty embarassing losses on his record, too. Jericho seems to always have problems with agile wrestlers. Consider his loss to Kofi Kingston months back. And that's a man that works a pretty similar style to RVD.

Wait a minute...

Consider Unforgiven 2008. Sure, Jericho won the World Title. He was also pummeled to a bloody pulp by Shawn Michaels, and only proved the fact that he one of the most inconsistent wrestlers in the main event.

Are you saying that Jericho's prime was since is 2007 comeback? You're joking right? You're comparing a RVD in his prime to a Jericho who was not. I'd say his prime was around 2001-2002. If we're going to compare wrestlers while one's in their prime and one's not, I may as well point out he pinned RVD to be the number one contender to The Rock's WCW Championship, as well as in the Survivor Series match. Either way, he had quite a run in this period, including becoming the first Undisputed Champion, a truly monumental accomplishment, one arguably as great as being the TV Champ for nearly two years.

RVD has held every title there is to hold. He's a much better wrestler than people give him credit for. In short, this match is far closer than anyone will give a chance to say. I'll tip my hat to RVD, though at the moment, to little avail

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big RVD fan, but Jericho is the better wrestler. And as for this championship argument, the only titles RVD won that Jericho didn't were a watered down version of the ECW championship and the ECW tag straps. Jericho won the WCW Championship, WHC, WCW TV Champ, and the WCW Cruiserweight champ (which also addresses your argument about Jericho being bad against agile competitors). Clearly, if RVD has won every title there is to hold, then Jericho has won every title and then some. In all honesty, I'm surprised the margin between the two is so big, but in the end, Jericho deserves the win.

 

[Coco]

Are you saying that Jericho's prime was since is 2007 comeback? You're joking right? You're comparing a RVD in his prime to a Jericho who was not. I'd say his prime was around 2001-2002. If we're going to compare wrestlers while one's in their prime and one's not, I may as well point out he pinned RVD to be the number one contender to The Rock's WCW Championship, as well as in the Survivor Series match.

The number one contendership is the one Stone Cold screwed RVD out of, right?

As for Survivor Series, RVD had been worn down fighting other members of Team WWF. It's not fair to say Jericho could beat RVD on his own in that time. He couldn't.

As was proven at King of the Ring 2002. As was proven on Jericho's first night on Raw in the summer of 2002. As was proven in the build to SummerSlam 2003, when Jericho lost clean again to Van Dam on Raw.

When has Jericho beaten Van Dam convincingly like that? And that's Jericho's prime, so you say.