WCW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (2) Andre The Giant vs. (11) CM Punk

[nightmare]

Andre can still use his upper body strength to tip over the ladder even if his legs don't work. It would also take Punk a long ass time to work those legs over because his legs are massive. Andre could easily tip over that ladder while sitting down. Punk would still have to keep Andre down long enough for him to get close to the ladder, I just don't see that happening.

Oh deaner... repeated strikes with a chair to the leg or knee will bust him up regardless of the size of his legs. In fact his legs suffer from big man syndrome in which they are having to carry his massive frame adding pressure. Big guys are prone to knee problems and if the man has been hit with a chair it makes it harder to stand\walk. Also- How many times have we seen a guy wrap a chair around the ankle of another man in attempt to injure? And when that happens to a bigger athelete? Right. He is injured costing serious moblility and speed.


So Andre is now just going to crawl around the mat to the ladder and shake Punk off from the ground. Jesus, what is he- a zombie? He would get to his feet, very slowly and hobble toward him. Once Punk see's that he is up he will do 1 of 2 things: Get down and make sure Andre wont be getting back up or he will climb his ass off.

The reason I went for the giant ladder is:

1) It provides enough stability for Andre to get up there and there is almost no chance he would fall off it by himself.

Solid reasoning

2) Once its set up he can just annihilate Punk to the point where once it is set up he can just stroll up it without any issues. Unlike Punk Andre could keep the guy down long enough where he could get up there.

I have an issue for you. The fact Andre had his legs worked over with metal objects. Punk isnt going to just let him stroll on up there.

3) Unlike the Big Show Andre doesn't have to take care of 5-7 guys he only has to take care of Punk. If Show knocked down Ziggler it was always someone fresh to make the save. This aint happening here.

Well that was true in his MITB match that he lost, but he sure had a bad time with RVD. So that shows us a big guy has plenty of trouble with 1 or 5 guys in this match type. It shows he wouldnt win. Now Punk is the opposite. He has won 1 on 1 as well as having multiple opponents at once trying to beat him. He is a winner at this match type, Andre Jr is not.

4) For the top heavy ladder theory to work, Punk would have to lift the ladder from the other side which would be wery difficult because its a 300 lb ladder. Also the ladder is middle heavy, not top heavy so even if the weight is uneven because Andre wouldn't have to go up to the top of the ladder, mayve 4-5 rungs. If you go from the side its gonna be even more difficult for Punk to tip it over.

Again, moving to shift the unstable weight is different than lifting it over to tip. Go to your bookshelf and try to knock its contents off. Now see how much force it takes to lift it a few inches. Good. Now just shove it from the side. What happened? Ah, shoving it took less force and caused it to wobble just fine didnt it? Punk would do the same. Why try to use a hell of alot of strength to lift it when he can hit a springboard dropkick to tilt it? Also, he could always just smack the hell out of Andre with a chair to the back of the leg causing him to lose balance while on the ladder. Hard to climb while getting hit in the leg. Just as well, Andre would most likely try to kick at Punk to keep him away and that would cause an unstable shift in his bodyweight. History has shown us that works also.

Also, regardless of the type of ladder used, all folding ladders have one weakness. The cross bar that locks the sides in place. You know the part that many people have bashed, kicked and bent so the ladder gets f'd up? Then a new ladder has to be used. What makes you think Punk wont do the same? He would see the difficulty in moving the special ladder around easily so he would render it void by destoying that part. Andre cant climb any sort of ladder if that part is not properly working. Now we are back to the normal ladders.

Punks quickness, agility and smarts wouldn't be enough to overcome Andre in any situation. I haven't seen anyone give a good argument yet as to how it would.

I have. His legs. Chair shots to the legs. Hell even a lead pipe. I can hear it now... JR:" Bahhh Gawdd! His leg, his leg! Damn that Punk- He's going to break his leg! What a bastard, he has no remorse King! Bahhh Gawdd his leg!".... Ah, yeah that sounds about right.


Andre is too big for the GTS, Vice or Pepsi Plunge to be effective or excecuted. So what is Punk to do? He takes the legs out and throws whatever he can at Andre that will hurt. Kicks to the head, chairs, ladders, pipes, belts, canes, fire extiguishers, etc. All legal and all things Punk has used to take guys out long enough to escape a hold or climb a ladder.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

The only way punk can win here is with a hit and run strategy.Match starts,punk runs away into the crowd,andre grabs a ladder,starts climbing,punk gets back,takes another ladder,hits andre in the knee joint,runs away again.If he manages to do so 10-12 times he'll have time to climb himself.

So... not only is Andre a moron, he's a BLIND moron? This is a completely ridiculous scenario! What would happen if Punk tried it - Andre starts climbing, sees Punk coming, steps down, kicks crap out of Punk, climbs ladder with Punk indisposed and wins. Punk has to incapacitate Andre the Giant to win this match, there is no evidence that he can do this - there is plenty that Andre can incapacitate him though... and that's before you give the monster toys to use!

And for your kind info,andre even in his prime was a human,he'll have to be hurt.

And for your kind info; what do you mean? Andre isn't really the Hulk? Dammit!!! ...
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sarcasm
Thank you kindly

 

[Slyfox696]

Watch this...

I have an issue for you. The fact Andre had his legs worked over with metal objects. Punk isnt going to just let him stroll on up there.

No Andre didn't. Punk never got close to touching Andre's legs. In fact, I have it on good authority Punk failed his IQ test, and that when Andre took his, he was shown to qualify for MENSA.

What I'm saying is that the dumb CM Punk picks up a chair and tries to swing it at Andre's head, at which point Andre just grabbed the chair from Punk, and bashed him over the head scrambling what few brain cells he had left. Punk's left lying on the floor while Andre climbs the ladder and grabs the object.


See? I can create a bunch of bullshit to support who I want to win too. Seriously, why do you people insist on saying such stupid things? "I just know Andre is going to stand in the middle of the ring like a fucking ****** while CM Punk takes a chair/pipe to his leg, ending his career". Seriously, that's what you just advocated in your post.

Just do yourself a favor. Say to yourself, "I'm in love with CM Punk, so I'm going to vote for him regardless of the fact he would have absolutely no chance to win this match. I'm just going to vote based solely upon my blind biases for Punk." You people would sound so much less stupid if you'd just admit that. Who knows, I might even have a shred of respect for you for being honest.


Please note, this applies for all the people in this thread who have come up with the most asinine reasons for voting for Punk, not just nightmare.

 

[Ming]

If Andre beats the holy hell out of Punk which is a strong possibility, then Andre can take all the time he wants.

It's not a strong possibility. Punk's not going to try grappling with Andre which is the only way I see Andre having his way with Punk.

1. MITB wins are irrelevant to me. This is an one-on-one encounter.

Punk's exprience in winning ladder matches is certainly relevant.

2. Andre can negate speed by beating the fuck out of Punk so he can take his sweet time climbing the ladder. I imagine Punk will scurry out of the ring first to try to grab a weapon and who will be right there waiting for him inside the ring?

Andre isn't invulnerable to weapons like a sledgehammer or ring bell. Punk grabs one, slides inside the ring with Andre unarmed, Andre's fucked.

1. Big Show had a special ladder created for him. Why not assume the same will happen here?

Let's assume it happens. Punk's caution won't allow Andre to deal enough (if any) damage for Punk to be down long enough for Andre to grab his ladder, put it in the ring, and then climb it.

2. Also, it depends which Andre we're talking about. If we're talking about 70's Andre who was probably around 350 or so pounds, then it's not a disadvantage. Kane is around 320 or 330 and he can climb a ladder without any problem. Shit, I've seen Mark Henry climb a ladder.

Big Show is more similar to Andre's size (any Andre) than Kane and Henry, this is pretty obvious.

Those same weapons are more than dangerous enough to cripple Punk.

If Andre uses them. Which is doubtful.

Choosing the greater wrestler is totally stupid in a tournament to determine who is the greatest wrestler. Right.

Somebody's missing the point.

Vote CM Punk.

 

[TheNickster]

I think this is a tough one.

I think that Andre could throw Punk around with his size in a normal match, but when you add in Tables, Ladders, and Chairs it's going to be complete chaos. I think Punk is quicker in the ring than the giant which can be quite crucial to being the victor in a TLC match, but he's going to have to get the big man down before climbing that ladder. I think Andre's strength will do quite a bit of damage to Punk, wearing him down until he can't take anymore. I do not see Punk taking the 500+ pound giant off the ladder, when Andre does get on it.

My vote:

Andre the Giant

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

This is a tough one.

Andre obviously has the size and strength advantage, while Punk has the speed, cunning and agility on his side. I am not going to get into the "Andre couldn't climb a ladder" argument, as he obviously could in his prime.

However, I think with the fact that these matches were not around in Andre's time, giving Punk the experience advantage, I am leaning towards Punk in this one. If Andre got his hands on him, or nailed him with a Giant strength shot with a ladder, then its game over Punk, but using his previous knowledge of TLC matches, and his speed to take out Andre's knees with a chair, making Andre slower than he already is, I could see Punk quickly scaling the ladder and grabbing the briefcase to win.

Winner: CM Punk

 

[Davi323]

All CM Punk has to do is get Andre on the ropes. Andre, being Andre, is too heavy, and gets stuck in between them. We have all seen this happen many, many times. Andre gets tied up in the ropes. While he is immobile, Punk climbs the ladder. No ref in a ladder match to help get Andre unstuck means Punk can climb without worry Andre gets out of it in time. If Andre gets caught in the ropes, this match is over.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

All CM Punk has to do is get Andre on the ropes. Andre, being Andre, is too heavy, and gets stuck in between them. We have all seen this happen many, many times. Andre gets tied up in the ropes. While he is immobile, Punk climbs the ladder. No ref in a ladder match to help get Andre unstuck means Punk can climb without worry Andre gets out of it in time. If Andre gets caught in the ropes, this match is over.

Sorry, but were has Punk the history of man handling a giant into this position? All Punk supporters are still conveniently avoiding the argument that he does not have any history of physically dominating any giant of note, never mind one of the stature of Andre. In fact, his history against giants is very simple - he gets decimated. Andre would just be the next Giant to leave him lying.

 

[Davi323]

When you have access to ladders and chairs to use as weapons, you don't need to be "dominant" you just need to hit him a few times to stagger him. He is big and strong, but he is not invulnerable.

 

[nightmare]

Watch this...



No Andre didn't. Punk never got close to touching Andre's legs. In fact, I have it on good authority Punk failed his IQ test, and that when Andre took his, he was shown to qualify for MENSA.

Really, I think that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard you say. Even dripping in sarcasm that is beneath you Sly.

What I'm saying is that the dumb CM Punk picks up a chair and tries to swing it at Andre's head, at which point Andre just grabbed the chair from Punk, and bashed him over the head scrambling what few brain cells he had left. Punk's left lying on the floor while Andre climbs the ladder and grabs the object.

Your right, that is a bunch of bullshit. It is very logical though that he can take away the chair and hit Punk with it. Question is, will that one shot be enough? Doubtfull. Andre is strong, but you are giving him a bit more of an exaggerated strength at the same time you discredit Punk and his ability to take a blow to the head. Punk has taken a good beating before and still gotten up. What TLC match have you ever seen where the big guy just hit his opponent once with a chair and called it a day? Yea, thats a little far fetched.

See? I can create a bunch of bullshit to support who I want to win too. Seriously, why do you people insist on saying such stupid things? "I just know Andre is going to stand in the middle of the ring like a fucking ****** while CM Punk takes a chair/pipe to his leg, ending his career". Seriously, that's what you just advocated in your post.

I know you can read, so dont play dumb. Never once did I say he would just stand there while Punk hit him. I have said Punk will use his speed to avoid him when possible, targeting the legs when he gets the chance and if he gets caught will not hesitate to use a dirty tactic. (eye gouge, nut shot, etc.) You, I, Punk and everyone else knows that is the formula the smaller, quicker man usually applies 9x out of 10 when facing a larger opponent. Countless matches have gone that way over the past many years. You are insulting yourself if you think for a second that Punk wouldnt do exactly that. He knows Andre is strong so why would he even attempt to go at him toe to toe? He wouldnt.

Just do yourself a favor. Say to yourself, "I'm in love with CM Punk, so I'm going to vote for him regardless of the fact he would have absolutely no chance to win this match. I'm just going to vote based solely upon my blind biases for Punk." You people would sound so much less stupid if you'd just admit that. Who knows, I might even have a shred of respect for you for being honest.

No need to say that because he does have a great chance to win. You on the other hand might benefit from saying "I just dont like Punk more than Andre, so thats why Im voting." You honestly think that his legs wont take a few good shots? You have seen matches similar to this and know that will happen. Dont insult yourself by ignoring logic or the fact that this scenario has happened in many matches regardless of a ladder being involved. Punk has proved he wins against 1 or many guys at the same time in this exact match. The history of wrestling shows us that the smaller guy who plays dirty uses that same tactic when faced with a larger opponent.


Andre is not Show, and Punk is not RVD- but that match and they type of wrestlers involved are very damn close to what we have here. You cant deny the eerie similarities given the circumstances. How did that turn out again?....

Please note, this applies for all the people in this thread who have come up with the most asinine reasons for voting for Punk, not just nightmare.

Please note, Sly is much smarter than this. Please dont judge him based on this thread.

I have used much more of a logical method to this as opposed to others who throw around asinine reasons as you so put it. I know Andre will beat on Punk, I know he wont cave the ladder in and doesnt need a custom ladder to win. I also know that there is nothing stopping Punk from being able to get that ladder over with Andre on it, nor is there anything preventing him from taking out his legs like so many others have done in the history of wrestling.


In short, Sly likes Andre and I like Punk. Andre big- Andre strong. I know I get it. Unfortunately you dont get a time tested formula the smaller wrestler applies when facing a larger one. People choose to ignore the physics of a ladder being tipped, where the bigger guy falls and the effect it has. Many also claim that Punk wouldnt effect Andre's massive legs with some well placed shots even though history proves otherwise. Also, people choose to ignore Punk has great success in this type of match regardless the # of opponents or size.



Punk wins. He takes a beating, but he wins. He applies his speed, plays dirty, takes out the big man's legs or uses weapons to hurt his opponent and climbs the damn ladder. Its not science fiction, fairy tales or personal bias. Its just the way history has shown to be the outcome.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

When you have access to ladders and chairs to use as weapons, you don't need to be "dominant" you just need to hit him a few times to stagger him. He is big and strong, but he is not invulnerable.

I have to respectfully disagree, mate (this could be a first - battle of the geriatrics to follow), these matches always end the same - with one guy lying banjaxed on the ground. Sorry, but nobody will persuade me that Punk can do this to Andre because he has no past history to dictate otherwise.

 

[Slyfox696]

Really, I think that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard you say. Even dripping in sarcasm that is beneath you Sly.

Yes, that was the point. When people just make stupid stuff up they have ZERO evidence for, it's an incredibly dumb thing to read.

Are you getting the point now?

Your right, that is a bunch of bullshit. It is very logical though that he can take away the chair and hit Punk with it. Question is, will that one shot be enough? Doubtfull.

Oh no, it will be. Why? Because I said it will be. You know, the same justification people give regarding "taking out Andre's knees".

I find it amusing that when presented with the same illogical type of comments I've had to read from Punk supporters you agree it's bullshit, but you have no problem using the same kind of arguments for Punk.

I've made my arguments for Andre quite clear, and have done so many times. The counter to those arguments have been, almost exclusively, asinine.

What TLC match have you ever seen where the big guy just hit his opponent once with a chair and called it a day? Yea, thats a little far fetched.

What TLC match have you seen Andre in? What IQ test have you seen that says Punk is smarter than Andre? What...well, you get the point.

I know you can read, so dont play dumb. Never once did I say he would just stand there while Punk hit him. I have said Punk will use his speed to avoid him when possible, targeting the legs when he gets the chance and if he gets caught will not hesitate to use a dirty tactic. (eye gouge, nut shot, etc.) You, I, Punk and everyone else knows that is the formula the smaller, quicker man usually applies 9x out of 10 when facing a larger opponent. Countless matches have gone that way over the past many years. You are insulting yourself if you think for a second that Punk wouldnt do exactly that. He knows Andre is strong so why would he even attempt to go at him toe to toe? He wouldnt.

The idea that Andre, a man who overturned a car by himself, hitting Punk with a steel chair so hard it knocks him out is bullshit, but your argument that Punk runs around like a Looney Toon character and hitting Andre in the knees is completely logical.

Get the fuck out of here with your nonsense. I watch people get knocked out with a gloved fist to the face, you're telling me getting hit in the head with a steel chair wouldn't have the possibility of killing someone, much less knocking them out?

Do you see why I referred to Punk supporter arguments as ridiculous yet?

You honestly think that his legs wont take a few good shots?

Are you aware of the term "reach advantage"?

Dont insult yourself

I'm not, I'm insulting you for your lack of objectivity.

Andre is not Show, and Punk is not RVD- but that match and they type of wrestlers involved are very damn close to what we have here.

No, they're not. When was the last time Big Show was EVER as dominant as Andre? And how in the fuck do you think RVD and Punk work similar styles? Have you ever watched these two guys wrestle? RVD and Punk are nothing alike in their working styles.

It's not "very damn close", it's not even in the same ballpark. It'd be like me saying because Andre pinned a midget, it's the same thing as Andre climbing a ladder to defeat Punk. In fact, my example has MORE relevance because at least Andre is in the match in both cases. Only morons would think an RVD vs. Big Show example is relevant.

Please note, Sly is much smarter than this. Please dont judge him based on this thread.

I think it's pretty clear who has been waxing idiotic in this thread. "There's no way the match would go the way you said it would go, I KNOW it would go the way I said it would go."

Seriously, that was your argument in your latest post.

In short, Sly likes Andre and I like Punk.

I like both guys.

If this were an Ultimate X match, I'd probably give the advantage to Punk. But the fact of the matter is that just because there's a ladder involved, which most people have agreed (those who haven't created the ridiculous 'ladder will break' excuse) plays no part, that doesn't mean Andre still isn't clearly more dominant.

Unfortunately you dont get a time tested formula the smaller wrestler applies when facing a larger one.

See, this is what you just don't get.

I understand what you're talking about, Bret Hart loved that type of a match. I'm just referring to the fact you're creating a scenario which may or may not ever happen to justify your vote. You have no more of an idea that the match would go your way than it would go mine. That's the stupidity in your statement. You're not using ANY objective criteria to justify your vote, you're daydreaming a scenario which fits how you want the match to end.

To draw a parallel example to sports, it would be like in basketball taking a great fastbreak team and putting them against a good half-court team. Instead of saying that Team A has been athletes, better shooters and the better record, you're saying Team B would win because they'll get into the game and slow it down, and the slower pace will favor them and they'll pull off the upset. You're not using any reasonable or objective criteria, you're just creating a scenario which COULD happen, and ignoring all the OTHER scenarios which are just as likely, such as the fastbreak team pressing the half-court team, causing turnovers and easy baskets.

Do you get it now? Do you understand what I'm saying?

Its just the way history has shown to be the outcome.

Oh really, history huh? Tell me, when did Punk and Andre meet in the ring? I wasn't aware they had a history.

It's dumbass statements like that which I'm referring to. There is no history between Punk and Andre. And history between RVD and Big Show has fuck all to do with this matchup.

 

[nightmare]

Oh Sly....


There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that Punk would go after the legs and use his speed to his advantage. RVD, Rey, Hart, Sting..... so many others have all used this very tactic when faced with a big opponent. Distracted opponent, shot from behind to the leg. Simple formula and I dont even have to consult the awnser key @ MENSA to know that awnser is correct. If the most green of wrestlers and kids in the audience know that then why is it so hard to think Punk will do the same? Match history regardless if these 2 have met has shown this scenario to exist and work. Your 'one shot' knockout may be possible but when have you seen it in this scenario?



Great, I get it Andre is stronger than Punk. A shot from him will hurt and could knock him out. I have seen evidence where wrestler A uses the formula from earlier to beat wrestler B- in this type of match. Regardless of who was in it, that has been shown to work. Your 'one-shot' theory has merit in logic, but no evedence to show for it in this type of match. This isnt the UFC. My comparison to RVD\Show has more relevance here than your comparisons. RVD was smaller and faster than Show, he had the experience in that type of match over Show and he won. Punk is smaller and faster and has the experience over Andre. What is so different? What stops Punk from doing what so many have proved effective before him?


Oh yea....





So they never fought before. Well thats just great, so we automatically give the win to the bigger guy with less experience in the match type? We ignore the very real possibility that the smaller guy will take out the legs to help his chances to win? We ignore that Punk has won ladder matches of all types against all sizes of opponents? You want to replace a very sound argument with a hypothetical scenario where Andre just knocks Punk out with one shot to the head?


So Andre has a size, strength and reach advantage right?


Kane 2\5 in ladder matches

Mark Henry 0\2 in ladder matches ( but he can turn a car with his bare hands like Andre so he is real strong, so strong yet it didnt get him a W)

Big Show 0\3 in ladder matches ( but he can knock guys out with one shot! Yet he has no wins either)

Undertaker 1/1 in ladder matches


...CM Punk 5\1 in ladder matches (one win had Show and Henry in it. He still found a way to win)


Good numbers huh? Big guys tend to lose alot more than the little guys, even when they are in the same match. If Punk can win at WM against 7 other guys including Kane\Henry why does he not stand a chance here? If 'giant' size, strength and reach has so much going for them, why do they not have winning records against 'puny humans'....


My scenario makes more sense than yours. I have seen it time and time again, just as you have. Now both could happen, but the one I am going with is more likely to happen. Show's KO ability never got him a win in this type of match, so Im not betting on that scenario for Andre.


Ladder can hold his weight and Andre will smash Punk, but Andre will take some shots to the leg, possibly get tipped off the ladder and be ultimately beaten at the hands of CM Punk. He doesnt need the SES or Nexus to topple this Giant. He doesnt need to rely on Andre crushing the ladder or even getting locked in the ropes (another likely scenario that has actually happened to Andre). Thats simply just CM Punk-by himself with better speed, weapons and dirty tricks.

 

[Slyfox696]

There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that Punk would go after the legs and use his speed to his advantage.

He would try, but there is no evidence he would be successful. That's the point. How do you not understand this yet?

Your 'one shot' knockout may be possible but when have you seen it in this scenario?

The same number of times you've seen your example in this scenario. That's the point. How do you not understand this yet?

Great, I get it Andre is stronger than Punk.

And bigger. And more dominant. And has a better record. And is a bigger draw. And has a more mainstream name, even today after being dead for nearly 20 years.

Your 'one-shot' theory has merit in logic, but no evedence to show for it in this type of match. This isnt the UFC. My comparison to RVD\Show has more relevance here than your comparisons.

I'm not making comparisons, that's the point. How do you not understand this yet?

So they never fought before. Well thats just great, so we automatically give the win to the bigger guy with less experience in the match type?

No, we evaluate who they were as a worker to determine odds of winning. Andre was bigger, stronger, more dominant, a bigger draw, more mainstream of a name, etc., thus that's how we determine Andre would be more likely to win than Punk. That's the point. How do you not understand this yet?

We ignore the very real possibility that the smaller guy will take out the legs to help his chances to win?

Yes, just as we're ignoring the very real possibility the guy who can flip over cars will knock Punk out in one punch to help his chances to win. Instead of "possibilities" we use objective statements. That's the point. How do you not understand this yet?

You want to replace a very sound argument with a hypothetical scenario where Andre just knocks Punk out with one shot to the head?

So Punk running around like a Looney Toons character is a "very sound argument" but Andre knocking Punk out with one punch is nothing more than a "hypothetical scenario? Do you see how ridiculous you're being? Yes, Andre punching out Punk is a hypothetical scenario, but so is Punk successfully taking out the legs so Andre can't even walk (which is a stupid argument in itself, because when was the last time you saw a wrestler injure another wrestler in a match so badly his career would be over, unless part of an excuse for the "injured worker" to take time off for real injuries?).

They are both equal in made up scenarios. That's the point. How do you not understand this yet?

So Andre has a size, strength and reach advantage right?


Kane 2\5 in ladder matches

Mark Henry 0\2 in ladder matches ( but he can turn a car with his bare hands like Andre so he is real strong, so strong yet it didnt get him a W)

Big Show 0\3 in ladder matches ( but he can knock guys out with one shot! Yet he has no wins either)

Undertaker 1/1 in ladder matches


...CM Punk 5\1 in ladder matches (one win had Show and Henry in it. He still found a way to win)


Good numbers huh? Big guys tend to lose alot more than the little guys, even when they are in the same match. If Punk can win at WM against 7 other guys including Kane\Henry why does he not stand a chance here? If 'giant' size, strength and reach has so much going for them, why do they not have winning records against 'puny humans'....

Were any of those guys Andre in his prime? No? Then your statement has no relevance. That's the point, how do you not understand this yet?

My scenario makes more sense than yours.

No it doesn't. Unless working an angle to let a wrestler have time away from the screen, when was the last time you saw a wrestler hurt another's wrestlers legs so badly he couldn't walk? However, as the Extreme Rules match between Cena and Lesnar showed us, a one punch knockout is certainly a very real possibility. Hell, Big Show has made his right hand his finishing move.

I've seen a lot more one punch knockouts than I have serious maimings.

I have seen it time and time again, just as you have.

No, I've seen little guys worker on bigger guys legs, but I don't recall off the top of my head the last time the little guy hurt the big guy so much he couldn't even stand up. Please direct me to the last time that happened.

Regardless though, as I said, BOTH cases are simply examples of what COULD happen, not objective analysis of each worker's ability to win the match. That's the point, how do you not understand this yet?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Nightmare I'm gonna throw everything I've ever said about this out the window and come at this from an entirely different approach and hopefully you understand.

You will never find a more dominant wrestler from any time frame and in any walk of life moreso than Andre The Giant. The reason he always won, no matter what the stipulations were wasn't because he was so big and so strong, its because it was good business for him to win. Why? Because he was a special attraction, he was popular in mainstream and became bigger than wrestling, much like Hulk Hogan. The only time Hogan lost clean in his prime (no matter what the stipulation) was to put over Warrior, someone WWE had high hopes for to reach the height that Hogan did. Punk simply doesn't fit that mold. Andre only lost in his prime to guys that it made smart business sense and that was to guys like Harley Race and Antonio Inoki because they were guys that carried their promotions respectively.

Punk may be champ but Cena is the #1 guy, that's why he's always in the main event even when he isn't champion. It really makes no sense for Punk to go over Andre because Andre is such a mainstream guy and you always want your mainstream guy to come out on top. That's why Andre always won because business wise it made the most sense.

No booker in their right mind would put a prime Punk over a prime Andre, and its insane to even think that any booker would.

 

[nightmare]

Fact: Andre drank large amounts of alcohol so much because of his size, he would pass the fuck out. In RL.

Punk in kayfabe and RL never touched the stuff.

Also Punk isnt French.


Now thats a shitty argument said in a very sarcastic tone. I seriously thought someone would try to use that shit by now. Its a terrible argument. Problem is that someone will use it and vote accordingly. Que sera....



Here is a real one for ya....

Andre had shit legs. The man broke bones hopping out of bed in the morining. Sounds to me that his legs would be an issue. The weight alone from his massive frame broke his own bones by simply getting out of bed. What the hell do you think a chair would do? How do you not understand this yet?



Never once did I say it would end his career. Now I do beleive it is enough to slow him down giving Punk the chance to climb. Being hurt, limping around on one good wheel is bad for Andre and good for Punk.



By your logic we havent seen either man do either thing to eachother so it doesnt matter because Andre is a bigger name and made more money as a draw. Well by that logic Bill Gates could beat Steve Wozniak at basketball because he is a bigger name and made more money. See how that works? Dumb, right? This is about who could win in the ring. Not mic skill, wallet size or who is taller. Some choose to vote that way and its just silly.



If it is about who is the bigger draw or more famous then why have a tournament at all? If we arent supposed to use past history, ability,match rules and what one could do to the other to determine the winner, then why not just crowd Hogan king of everything and be done with it?

 

[Danger Burger]

C'mon guys, tip the scales! This ones simple, Andre is agile for a big guy, but he is far from agile... And he gets gassed easy as you can see in the video on the first post. Punk can keep away from him, which almost makes andre's strenght much less important. How does punk attack though? Andre has great reach?? He flings a ladder at him, they are longer than andres arms, ramming him, could work easy. Andre grabs the ladder, punk just has to walk away.

Andre can climb a ladder, fact. Granted, with his height he wouldnt need one to change a lightbulb, but its stupid to think he couldnt do it! But its also stupid to think punk couldnt push him over when he's on it. Laws of physics still apply, its been dealt with, centre of gravity moves up.

Punk has the background, not ust in ladder and money in the bank matches, but in the era he was raised, and his work in backyard wrestling give him a huge advantage when weapons apply. Yes andre can swing the eifel tower no doubt, but the match stipulations give punk the advantage, thats what they are there for.

Every advantage of Andre's can be defeated through punks agility, endurance and intelligence. I'm not saying andre isnt intelligent, as some people upstairs are using to counteract the role of smarts here, but simply that intelligence does not help a slow man catch a fast man, but it does help a small man beat a huge man.

Vote punk, because he deserves it! Andre is a legend, but that isn't enough to get him through here.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Andre broke his legs getting out of bed but NOT in his prime, it happened later in life when the guy could hardly move and his body had grown to such proportions that his joints and bones simply couldn't handle it. Andre in his prime was more the build of the Big Show, I don't recall Big Show having too many leg issues and Andre didn't either until he was much older and his disease got out of control. Andre in his prime wouldn't be breaking his legs by hopping out of bed and wouldn't have the knee problems yet because his frame wasn't nearly at the point he couldn't handle it. Andre could do dropkicks and come off the top rope in his prime, and he could do it without injuring himself.

Being a draw and having mainstream attention should play a big factor in these situations, they shouldn't necessarily be the end all of it but it certainly accounts for a lot, always has in wrestling, always will in wrestling, these are facts that cannot be disputed.

The fact is Punk isn't in the same league as Andre therefore there's no way he would win, no matter how much of an advantage he has in a TLC match. This tournament isn't for real life fights its a wrestling tournament that takes place in a KAYFABE environment, simple as that.

Just so you know I gave Gagne my vote last Andre match. A lot of it had to do with the simple fact of:

1) Gagne was a massive draw and in certain situations COULD beat Andre.
2) It was Ultimate Submission and would be exactly the type of match they would put a big draw and one of the all time greats in wrestling over Andre the Giant a bigger draw.

You could have made just as good, maybe even a better case for Andre winning that match but given the account of all things I gave Gagne the edge and have no doubt in Gagne's prime he was a big enough name to where Andre could lose to him. It would be similar to Thesz going over Andre in a 60 minute Iron Man match, it would make sense. Punk winning makes ZERO sense.

Punk ISN'T nor has he ever been a draw in wrestling, at least not a proven one so there is no doubt he is losing this match. If straight up experience accounted for everything why did Edge lose to Cena in a TLC match IN TORONTO? By your logic Edge would have won that match, yet he didn't.

There is no situation, in any company in the history of the WORLD where CM Punk would ever go over Andre The Giant, the booker would have to be insane and probably wouldn't be in business making asinine booking decisions like that.

 

[AwesomeRko]

Andre made a career out of crushing guys who were smaller and quicker than him. He was far more mobile than people give him credit for in his heyday and Punk would have an absolute nightmare on his hands even getting him to the deck. Andre could crush Punk in a few moves, a steel chair would perhaps be overkill, climb up the ladder at his own pace, smoke a quick cigar and then grab the title belt.

The fact that this is tied amazes me, Punk getting past Edge and Bret Hart was already a travesty but there is absolutely no way he would have went over Andre in his prime. The man was the biggest attraction in wrestling and more dominant than Hogan at his peak in the 70's.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Punk has the background, not ust in ladder and money in the bank matches, but in the era he was raised, and his work in backyard wrestling give him a huge advantage when weapons apply. Yes andre can swing the eifel tower no doubt, but the match stipulations give punk the advantage, thats what they are there for.

You actually brought out backyard wrestling as an reason that Punk would win? You take the cake my friend.

Every advantage of Andre's can be defeated through punks agility, endurance and intelligence. I'm not saying andre isnt intelligent, as some people upstairs are using to counteract the role of smarts here, but simply that intelligence does not help a slow man catch a fast man, but it does help a small man beat a huge man.

Vote punk, because he deserves it! Andre is a legend, but that isn't enough to get him through here.

I do think you're saying that Andre's not intelligent. All this Punk running away shit makes me laugh. Andre isn't going to be stupid enough to leave the ring. Eventually, Punk's going to have to get it that ring to face him or Andre's going to be pissed at the feeble hit-and-run attacks to beat the shit out of Punk when he gets his hands on him.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

What a difference a year makes; Punk's achievements up to the WZ Tournament last year were that spectacular that he didn't even make it into the reckoning. The last year has him that good that he can defeat Edge, Bret Hart AND Andre the Giant? He is now officially being booked stronger in the WZT than he was at his own companies premier event!

 

[Danger Burger]

I do think you're saying that Andre's not intelligent. All this Punk running away shit makes me laugh. Andre isn't going to be stupid enough to leave the ring. Eventually, Punk's going to have to get it that ring to face him or Andre's going to be pissed at the feeble hit-and-run attacks to beat the shit out of Punk when he gets his hands on him.

I'm not saying it, i promise!! Andre's intelligence wont help him grab a guy who's too quick, and he will get tired trying to go after punk, he doesnt need to leave the ring, punk just has to get behind him and chisel away at the back of his knees. Running away/avoiding, its been done hundreds of times, and yes it is funny! "when he gets his hand on him" is exactly it, he's not quick enough to catch him!

Attitude are and backyard wrestling reference was for hardcore experience, the likes of which Andre does not have, not to the same extent of beaing raised in the environment!!

Being pissed off doesnt get you the win, he's not lou ferrigno, especially if he cant get to punk before he dies of dehydration, but everything i mentioned does lead to victory.

 

[D-Man]

Why is Andre losing here?!? Guys, are you serious right now? I know Punk is popular and all but come on. Andre has just about EVERY advantage in this match. It doesn't matter how many ladder-type matches Punk has won; he's never faced a guy with Andre's size, agility, experience, and power. Especially in an environment where Andre can use more than just his brute force... he has weapons at his disposal. He could destroy Punk in this type of match!

VOTE ANDRE

 

[Vincent Michaels]

All CM Punk has to do is get Andre on the ropes. Andre, being Andre, is too heavy, and gets stuck in between them. We have all seen this happen many, many times. Andre gets tied up in the ropes. While he is immobile, Punk climbs the ladder. No ref in a ladder match to help get Andre unstuck means Punk can climb without worry Andre gets out of it in time. If Andre gets caught in the ropes, this match is over.

How do you expect Punk to get him in the ropes? It's not like Andre's facing The Ultimate Warrior, someone that had enough speed and size to send Andre reeling. Punk would just bounce off Andre like throwing a ball at a sturdy built wall. It's already been established that any other way besides this strategy that isn't entirely biased simply lets Andre proceed to beat the living tar out of him. Therefore, let's look at some other ways Punk could tie him up:

Punk attempts to hit Andre with any weapon of choice to send him backwards. Oh wait, Andre won't take that, he can just grab that weapon of choice or one of his arms and:

proceed to beat the living tar out of him.

Punk attempts to weaken his legs before sending him reeling with a stiff kick to the head. Oh wait, Andre won't take that either. He'll just grab Punk's leg, rip it off, and:

proceed to beat the living tar out of him.

Maybe Punk will try some nifty springboards, such as his Clothesline or a Missile Dropkick. Maybe that'll send Andre reeling. You know, providing that Andre doesn't pull a Big Show and swat him out of the air like an annoying fly or catch him in mid air, and? You guessed it:

proceed to beat the living tar out of him.

Vote Andre.

 

[Benson]

I love this idea that Andre can;t be beaten if he doesn't want to be. If Big Show can be beaten down by guys half his size, Andre can too.