WCW Region, Third Round, Ultimate Submission:(2) Andre The Giant vs. (10) Verne Gagne

[shattered dreams]

This Maeda thing is a weird bucket to put all your cards in. Andre was 40 at the time of this match and I guess possibly drunk according to lore. Didn't a UFC champion just lose to Randy Savage in this tournament? Shoot fighting isn't all that important most of the time in prowrestling.

Here is how I look at this match. It is pretty much a best case scenario for Gagne and even then the most obvious outcome to this match is a draw. Since we can't vote for a draw, I'll break the tie towards Andre since practically everything except match type plays heavily to his advantage.

Karl 'fucking' Gotch. April 27th, 1971. The wrestler closest to Verne Gagne that Andre ever faced. The old school submission specialist dismantled Andre, and actually racked up four consecutive victories over him.

Antonio 'fucking' Inoki. June 14th, 1986. Another old school submission specialist who Andre faced with a huge height and weight advantage. Didn't do him a whole lot of good, the giant ended up tapping the fuck out.

What happened in the 15 years in between?

 

[Gelgarin]

What happened in the 15 years in between?

Losses to Baron Von Raschke, Nick Bockwinkel, Killer Kowlaski, Moondog Mayne, The Shiek, Dory Funk Jr, Ole Anderson, Edouard Carpentier, The Spoiler, Dick the Bruiser, Antonio Inoki (again - this one by TKO), Ernie Ladd and a collection of other people.

I know for a fact that Gagne had victories over Brockwinkel, Kowalski, Dory Funk Jr and Carpentier. I don't have a fucking clue who Baron Von Raschke or The Spoiler even were.

 

[Remix]

This Maeda thing is a weird bucket to put all your cards in. Andre was 40 at the time of this match and I guess possibly drunk according to lore. Didn't a UFC champion just lose to Randy Savage in this tournament? Shoot fighting isn't all that important most of the time in prowrestling.

I don't have the oldschool knowledge of Gelgarin to play with, so I'm sticking to something that I feel I can competently defend. It also took place within those "15 undefeated years" that WWE and JMT mentioned though. And since Loveless brought up Andre's mass when he was at his largest (and therefore least mobile) and that's the Andre that got made into a bitch. A smaller Andre is just an Andre who could be more easily manhandled by Gagne.

And shootfighting is quite important in this match, because Andre's losing the easy way or the hard way however you look at it.

 

[pumpkinking8987]

Watching the clip that Tastycles reminded me of The Princess Bride... didnt Andre get beat by the same hold.

When i saw the line-up i thought that Andre had this match locked up, so many stipulations that would make things a cake walk. I was hoping for a Body Slam Match so we could have a unanimous vote. (eventhough Gelgarin might of still voted Gagne)

I could even see Andre winning a Submission match, I could see him catching Gagne once in a BearHug, but an Ultimate Submission Match is all Gagne.

There is little doubt that Andre would hold his own for the first 10 minutes. I would think Andre gets the first tap at about 5 minute mark because Vern gets cornered and BearHugged. Being an extremly intelligent wrestler Vern taps almost immediately so the hold is broken, he doesnt want to try and break Andre's grip which in unlikely anyway. Vern wears Andre down and gets the sleeper hold locked in at about the 20 minute mark. Andre tries to shake him off but finally taps a couple minutes later. Then the floodgates open Andre is tired and Vern pulls off submission after submission. Vern gets the win 4 subs to 1 at the 30 minute mark.

 

[Con T.]

Andre is bigger, stronger and heavier... if only any of those factors mattered here.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy any of that, not in the slightest. At the end of the day, a submission is placing pressure on a joint, a muscle, a bone, what have you. The point of the hold, at the end of the day, is to place enough pressure on your opponent's body part, that they have no choice but to surrender.



And you don't mean to tell me that five hundred something pounds of pressure is going to have more impact than two hundred something?

Look, this isn't even a wrestling issue, it's a physics one, to start with. You're saying that Andre's girth and weight holds no bearing on the match, and that simply isn't true. Andre placing a hold on someone, regardless of "experience" shall we call it, is going to have an impact.

Why?

Because it's still five hundred pounds of pressure placed on a joint. Actually, really it's more, but you know, don't give two rats asses to try and do the math.

I've heard tell in one of these tournaments, Hulk Hogan was eliminated because people said Hogan couldn't climb a ladder. I don't get the context, I don't know who the opponent was, but that sounds like the asinine logic that people share when they heavily desire an outcome. If you are to tell me Andre is going to lose because he hasn't performed a submission, I'm here to tell you that's almost as foolish and prejudiced as the Hogan theory. Now, surely Gagne's a much, much better technician, and that's why I'm undecided in the match outcome, as of now. But if you're to argue Gagne, and argue it's because he's a great technician, I see your rationale. Not sure if I am fully on board, but get the point. If you're also going to argue Andre can't use submissions... Well, see to the above statement

Also, Kotre, I must admit, I also howled with laughter when you said Gagne was going to force Andre to do anything. There are plenty of men in history who've been shot on, definitely during Gagne's time. But if you can give me a time where anyone shot on Andre, by all means, please do. John Studd was scared shitless to do so, and pretty much let Andre have his way with him. Bad News Allen may have tried, even in Andre's later days, and I'm pretty sure that didn't nearly pan out well for him. No, unless you're going to give me Kamala with a revolver, no one ever forced Andre to do anything.

Of course, I haven't nearly decided who I'm voting for in this tournament. Not sure how much I agree with Gelgarin when he says Gagne's a bigger draw, and a bigger star. He's certainly not a bigger mainstream star; at the end of the day, I'm gonna say that the guy that was actually a star outside of wrestling is probably the bigger star, period. But I can't deny how much this gimmick favors Gagne. Give me a day to think it over.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

I'll grant that stipulation advantage does go to Verne. He's one of the best submission specialists of all time. But he's had his fair share of losses, even in his prime. Andre, in his prime, was unbeatable. Who knows how many submission specialists tried to defeat Andre in his prime, without success. How many wrestlers would have tapped out to Andre standing on them?

I'm going to read more opinions and see how the voting goes before I make my decision. But as it currently stands, I am slightly leaning towards Andre.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

Verne Gagne is a submission specialist, good enough to be considered for the OLYMPIC team. He won countless matches by submission, and even Andre The Giant would have to tap out if Gagne locked a hold in.

I wanted to address this point because its been raised quite a bit. I'll grant Gagne the submission advantage, but I don't think being considered for the Olympic team really has much bearing in this. Kurt Angle was being considered for the Olympic team, but are we really to believe that Angle could beat Andre in this type of match? Obviously Angle is no Gagne, but the point remains.

There's a tendency on both sides to overemphasize the strengths of their respective arguments. But I do think the Gagne side is overselling the Olympic team point.

 

[Gelgarin]

Well Kotre has more than proven to be capable of taking care of himself, but I'm nothing if not a glory hog.

Also, Kotre, I must admit, I also howled with laughter when you said Gagne was going to force Andre to do anything. There are plenty of men in history who've been shot on, definitely during Gagne's time. But if you can give me a time where anyone shot on Andre, by all means, please do. John Studd was scared shitless to do so, and pretty much let Andre have his way with him. Bad News Allen may have tried, even in Andre's later days, and I'm pretty sure that didn't nearly pan out well for him. No, unless you're going to give me Kamala with a revolver, no one ever forced Andre to do anything.

Did you actually read the thread... like, at all?

Kotre already provided an example of Andre getting shot on. Akira Maeda? Small Asian guy, at least ten inches closer to the ground that Andre the giant, kicked the ever loving fuck out of Andre after the big guy refused to cooperate during the match.
Andre was not a legit guy in any sense of the word. He was slow and cumbersome when compared to most of his contemporaries. Sure he was freakishly strong, put people have this unfortunate tendency to *********e themselves furiously to the notion of physical strength, failing to appreciate that it borders on irrelevance when held is opposition to 'knowing what you're doing'. For evidence of this I suggest turning your attention to legendary super heavyweight Big Van Vader being made to tap out by Ken Shamrock.

Being big doesn't prevent you being taken down, in fact once you get to Andre's size it actually makes it easier on account of the high centre of mass (that's actual physics for you). Add to that how notoriously bad Andre's legs were for much of his career (someone mentioned The Princess Bride, did you know that for the scene where little Cary Elwes has hanging onto Andre's back, they actually had to employ scaffolding because Andre couldn't support his weight?) Combine all that and you get a giant who is easy to get off his feet, and once he's grounded Andre's complete lack of technical acumen becomes the critical feature.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy any of that, not in the slightest. At the end of the day, a submission is placing pressure on a joint, a muscle, a bone, what have you. The point of the hold, at the end of the day, is to place enough pressure on your opponent's body part, that they have no choice but to surrender.

Yeah, except we've repeatedly been shown that this isn't the case. Big Show has tapped out a hundred times more often than he has submitted an opponent, and whenever he has been forced to rely on submissions via stipulation he has always lost. The same is true for Bundy, Yoko, Rikishi, Bigelow, Vader, Tenta, One Man Gang or pretty much any super heavyweight I can think of. Being big does not help you submit opponents, otherwise some big men might try it.

I wanted to address this point because its been raised quite a bit. I'll grant Gagne the submission advantage, but I don't think being considered for the Olympic team really has much bearing in this. Kurt Angle was being considered for the Olympic team, but are we really to believe that Angle could beat Andre in this type of match? Obviously Angle is no Gagne, but the point remains.

There's a tendency on both sides to overemphasize the strengths of their respective arguments. But I do think the Gagne side is overselling the Olympic team point.

It's not like we're depending on Gagne's Olympic credentials to prove his technical prowess, it just happens to be one of the better examples. I can just as easily show how incredible a technician he was by brining up the over 1000 career submissions he has to his name, or the multiple times he made Lou Thesz tap out, or the time the greatest technical wrestler who has ever lived spent around forty straight minutes trying to force a concussed Verne Gagne to tap and achieved zero success.

There's another issue I'd like to bring up, which is the question of who Andre actually defeated during his prime. I think we can all agree that Andre's best years were '73 to '87, the time when he was allegedly (not really) undefeated.

Do you want to know all the high profile names that Andre knocked off during those fifteen years?

King Kong Bundy, John Studd, Hillbilly Jim, Nicolai Volkoff, Kamala, Roddy Piper, Ken Patera, One Man Gang, Sgt. Slaughter, Billy Graham, Blackjack Mulligan.

Don't get me wrong; there are some great names there (although I wouldn't really call it the cream of the crop - he never faced the era's top draws such as Bruno, Sheik, Backlund or Race) but the point I'm driving at is that when people bring up the shortage of times that Andre has tapped out... no shit, he basically never faced submission specialists. On the few occasions he did come up against technicians (Tapping out to Inoki and the four straight losses to Gotch) the matches tended to end the same way, absolutely not in Andre's favour.

If you actually take the time to look at Andre's record, instead of simply going "wow, undefeated" you'll see that almost every singles win he recorded was against a big guy who relied on his power. That's hardly surprising, since Andre was bigger and more powerful than them. Against technicians who relied on mat wrestling and submissions to win their matches, Andre's record goes from 'incredible' to 'a little bit shit'.

Not sure how much I agree with Gelgarin when he says Gagne's a bigger draw, and a bigger star. He's certainly not a bigger mainstream star.

Doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, it's been added up. Tally the number of times each guy drew a gate of 10,000+; during his prime Andre was the tenth biggest draw State side, whilst Gagne was the forth biggest draw of his era.

All bias aside, revisionist history would have you forget that, even at his peak in popularity, Andre the Giant was outdrawn by Dick the Bruiser and Ivan Koloff. I was honestly pretty surprised by this as well, but it's true.

As for who was the bigger mainstream star; during their respective eras who knows. More of Andre's career was televised which gives him a pretty huge advantage in that respect. If you're talking about who the bigger star is now; the Miz is probably more widely recognised than Lou Thesz. It's not a very good barometer for success.

 

[Con T.]

No, i've read the thread.... I haven't read the part where Kotre talks about the part of it being when Andre was pretty much on his last legs, pardon the pun on the matter, and was all sorts of fucked up. Again, likely not the best thing to be uncooperative when oy are, but I still don't see why Andre getting shot on, when he's clearly got issues and is essentially mobile, should lead Kent believe an Andre, in his prime (as I've been told we're using. Kinda meh to it, but sure), is going to get shot on.

There's a saying going around about Brock Lesnar in MMA, and it essentially goes pre-diverticulits, and, well, when shit hit the fan. You can watch in his fights how much easier it was to break Brock. Andre, unfortunately, is very much the same way, except his own issues led to, you know, death and such. I see the Maeda case; I also see a Giant not near his prime.

You're also missing my point a tad; we agree Andre would tap, and I while your list of big boys that have tapped is noted, it's not really against what I want to clarify. What I'm more disputing is the notion that;

A. Andre can't hook a submission. Now, you yourself haven't said as much, and the farthest I think you'll say is Gagne is a much better technician, which is fair. However, I want to dispel this notion that Andre can't slap on a leg lock or two. Again, see the Hogan-ladder analogy made in my previous post.

B. That, if Andre does hook a submission, it won't hurt like a fucker. Again, all a submission boils down to is pressure. And while shoot moves involve a certain twerk of the move, which Gagne is much better at, something about the notion of five hundred pounds of pressure on a joint makes me think that will be a smidge uncomfortable for Verne. Mind you, I'm not bothering to do the math, and figure how much pressure is involved if Andre doesn't apply pressure; I'll let the eggheads figure that out. What I'm more getting at is that when Andre does lock in a hold, it's going to apply an amount of pressure the likes of which Verne has never seen before.

Ergo, the notion that Andre's size plays no role in the match is, well, you saw my little smiley.

I will say, I was shocked to see that Gagne drew more "sell outs" by the 10k gate you're going with, and I see that as a fair point. I think I should also likely revert back to our little chit chat in the GSD, in which even you state it's somewhat difficult to draw a definitive term to what a draw is. Course, I only bring it up because it was your words, not mine, that state Verne was a much bigger draw, and a bigger star.

Also, I'm not sure why we should be so quick to neglect Andre as a bigger mainstream star. Your Miz-Thesz point is fair; except there's one problem; none of Miz' mainstream popularity actually drew much money. Andre's success, on the other hand, actually drew money, and a fuckton of it. So I don't think the talk about who's a bigger mainstream star is that unimportant, considering

A. It helps my argument (hey, I don't mind saying it)
B. Part of being a draw means getting the fans outside of the "regulars" to buy a ticket. I think there's something to be said about being enough of a star, that you transcend the business, and get the mainstream to buy your stuff. It will be ultimately what separates the Stone Colds and the Hogans, and what will make them the winners of this tournament, if anyone else has a lick of sense.


Still on the fence, really

 

[The Gribbler]

Wow, one submission win in a career that spanned decades. [sarcasm]How impressive. Truely Verne, a man who won matches by tapout by the boatload is stands no chance against this titan.[/sarcasm]

Seriously? You're making the argument that Andre would get more submissions in one match than he did in his entire career? No, he wouldn't for two reasons. Gagne wouldn't tap, anything Andre could conceivably do to him to make him tap, Gagne will have taken worse from Thesz and not tapped. And second, he's not going to just fucking lie there and let Andre sit on him or get ragdolled. He's an olympic class wrestler. Brute force isn't going to beat him.



And he's facing Verne freaking Gagne. Your point?



Gagne would win. Therefore you should vote Gagne. Simples.

I actually meant one submission defeat, not submission victory. I am actually not sure if Andre won any matches by submission, doesn't really seem his style.

Brute force wont beat Gagne? I'm sorry but if you hit ANYONE hard enough, for long enough, eventually they will either pass out or give up. Tough or not, everyone has a breaking point.

Verne Gagne is a legend in this business and I will never underestimate him but if you think this match is cut and dry win for Gagne then your deluded. The match would be a tough call. My point about it being Andre the giant is that he was for a long time the most feared person in all of pro wrestling. The man stood over 7 foot tall and weighed something in the vicinity of 500lbs. That size and strength advantage do a lot to even the field.

Buuuuuuuut your point about Gagne... you know... actually having a submission base is persuasive. And I am leaning in his direction at the moment. Think ill read a little more.

 

[Remix]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy any of that, not in the slightest. At the end of the day, a submission is placing pressure on a joint, a muscle, a bone, what have you. The point of the hold, at the end of the day, is to place enough pressure on your opponent's body part, that they have no choice but to surrender.

Here's basic physics for you. Pressure is equal to force times area. Therefore a smaller wrestler applying holds with an equal amount of pressure is more effective. Secondly, moment (or a turning force, if you will) is equal to force times distance. Therefore Andre's longer limbs allow Gagne to overcome the weight disadvantage by applying more leverage to a hold.

I'll finish it off with some basic wrestling. If you apply a hold wrong, you're either going to make it easier to escape, apply less pressure or both. Secondly someone smaller and more mobile is going to be able to use counters to submission holds that a larger man wouldn't. Andre is no technical titan. Submission holds aren't his thing, meaning any he does apply aren't likely to be well applied unless they're simple things like bear hugs which do have counters. Secondly if Gagne and Andre apply the same holds, Gagne's going to have an easier time getting out because of his size.

And you don't mean to tell me that five hundred something pounds of pressure is going to have more impact than two hundred something?

Yes I do. I just did.

Look, this isn't even a wrestling issue, it's a physics one, to start with. You're saying that Andre's girth and weight holds no bearing on the match, and that simply isn't true. Andre placing a hold on someone, regardless of "experience" shall we call it, is going to have an impact.

Let me out it to you this way. Daniel Bryan and Ryback both take a hold of my arm and apply a submission hold to it. Who do you think would make me tap out first, the little guy who knows how to apply a hold, or the big guy who has got a lot of power but no clue how to apply a good armlock? At the end of the day pure power doesn't matter in submission matches. It's all about technique and leverage. Both things that Gagne has in his favor.

B]Because it's still five hundred pounds of pressure placed on a joint.[/B] Actually, really it's more, but you know, don't give two rats asses to try and do the math.

What maths would you like me to do? The math that proves Gagne can apply more pressure, or the math that proves he can apply more energy (force x distance) to a hold?

Also, Kotre, I must admit, I also howled with laughter when you said Gagne was going to force Andre to do anything.

Akira Maeda, 1986. Game, set and match.

No, i've read the thread.... I haven't read the part where Kotre talks about the part of it being when Andre was pretty much on his last legs, pardon the pun on the matter, and was all sorts of fucked up. Again, likely not the best thing to be uncooperative when oy are, but I still don't see why Andre getting shot on, when he's clearly got issues and is essentially mobile, should lead Kent believe an Andre, in his prime (as I've been told we're using. Kinda meh to it, but sure), is going to get shot on.

Well I established earlier in the thread that Gagne is an egocentric guy who'd either get booked to go over Andre, or he'd go into business for himself, just like he did when the NWA wouldn't give him the world title. Maeda proved that Andre's got nothing in a real fight and Gagne would happily make it one if it behoved him.

There's a saying going around about Brock Lesnar in MMA, and it essentially goes pre-diverticulits, and, well, when shit hit the fan. You can watch in his fights how much easier it was to break Brock. Andre, unfortunately, is very much the same way, except his own issues led to, you know, death and such. I see the Maeda case; I also see a Giant not near his prime.

OK, if Andre's in his prime he's also considerably lighter and less powerful. Gagne still wins, no matter how young or in shape Andre is.

A. Andre can't hook a submission. Now, you yourself haven't said as much, and the farthest I think you'll say is Gagne is a much better technician, which is fair. However, I want to dispel this notion that Andre can't slap on a leg lock or two. Again, see the Hogan-ladder analogy made in my previous post.

I would however say that he can't apply a leg lock well. You know why Lance Storm was able to win matches with a half crab? He applied it well. A big guy might have power, but they usually have less technique because they substitute one for the other. If Andre applies a sloppy leg lock Gagne would just get out of it and apply a hold properly.

B. That, if Andre does hook a submission, it won't hurt like a fucker. Again, all a submission boils down to is pressure. And while shoot moves involve a certain twerk of the move, which Gagne is much better at, something about the notion of five hundred pounds of pressure on a joint makes me think that will be a smidge uncomfortable for Verne. Mind you, I'm not bothering to do the math, and figure how much pressure is involved if Andre doesn't apply pressure; I'll let the eggheads figure that out. What I'm more getting at is that when Andre does lock in a hold, it's going to apply an amount of pressure the likes of which Verne has never seen before.

Yawn. I'd estimate that I weigh about 200 lbs. I put someone in a wristlock. Does that mean I'm applying 200 lbs of pressure to the wrist? Size is not a big advantage in a submission match, because the art of applying an effective submission is all about technique.

I will say, I was shocked to see that Gagne drew more "sell outs" by the 10k gate you're going with, and I see that as a fair point. I think I should also likely revert back to our little chit chat in the GSD, in which even you state it's somewhat difficult to draw a definitive term to what a draw is. Course, I only bring it up because it was your words, not mine, that state Verne was a much bigger draw, and a bigger star.

Well then, provide a metric that proves Andre's a better draw.

I actually meant one submission defeat, not submission victory. I am actually not sure if Andre won any matches by submission, doesn't really seem his style.

It is Gagne's and, if you've tapped once you'll probably do it again.

Brute force wont beat Gagne? I'm sorry but if you hit ANYONE hard enough, for long enough, eventually they will either pass out or give up. Tough or not, everyone has a breaking point.

You see that post where Gelgarin talks about Lou Thesz (I assume) trying to submit a concussed Verne Gagne for three quarters of an hour and can't? Read it.

Verne Gagne is a legend in this business and I will never underestimate him but if you think this match is cut and dry win for Gagne then your deluded. The match would be a tough call. My point about it being Andre the giant is that he was for a long time the most feared person in all of pro wrestling. The man stood over 7 foot tall and weighed something in the vicinity of 500lbs. That size and strength advantage do a lot to even the field.

Neither of which helps him when he's facing Verne Gagne in a submission match. When shit gets real Andre lies on his back and begs you to stop.

 

[shattered dreams]

Here's basic physics for you. Pressure is equal to force times area. Therefore a smaller wrestler applying holds with an equal amount of pressure is more effective. Secondly, moment (or a turning force, if you will) is equal to force times distance. Therefore Andre's longer limbs allow Gagne to overcome the weight disadvantage by applying more leverage to a hold.

Actually pressure is equal to force divided by area. Also, force includes mass in the calculation. It is harder for a smaller competitor to generate the same pressure as a larger, stronger one. Not sure you are using area correctly in this case anyway. I think the relevant area would be that of the joint that is being attacked. The more area to spread the force over the less pressure it generates. A smaller elbow/arm is easier to contort even if a longer one does provide additional leverage. I think Andre's size actually renders many submissions almost worthless. I don't see how anyone can argue that Andre would lose to a sleeper but Gagne wouldn't to a bear hug. Andre squeezing the life out of someone is much more believable to me than the other.

 

[thatotherguy]

Here's basic physics for you. Pressure is equal to force times area. Therefore a smaller wrestler applying holds with an equal amount of pressure is more effective. Secondly, moment (or a turning force, if you will) is equal to force times distance. Therefore Andre's longer limbs allow Gagne to overcome the weight disadvantage by applying more leverage to a hold.

Okay, I know shattered already dealt with this a little but I have to deal with this more specifically, since this is terrible, terrible physics. (BTW's I voted for Gagne)

Your logic is as follows: (P = pressure, F = Force, A = Area)
P = F*A. Therefore F = P/A therefore a larger man would give more pressure therefore less force therefore a submission move from a larger man hurts more.

Except every step of the way you are wrong. First. P = F/A. Second, pressure is what matters here (if we're trying to quantify pain), not force. Third, your idea of what area means here is straight up wrong.

A submission move puts pressure on a single joint. The surface area of that joint is the surface area we're talking about. Because what we care about in physics is the surface area that pressure is being put on, not the surface area that is giving the pressure. Therefore the surface area in this case is independent of the size of the man delivering the submission hold. So what's left?

Force.

Force is proportional to mass. Who has more mass?

Andre the f'n Giant. Now granted it's a little more complicated than that as the Giant can't necessarily put his entire body mass into a submission hold, but then again, neither can Gagne, so it all evens out.

If Andre the Giant gets Gagne into a submission hold it hurts far more than if Gagne gets the Giant into a submission hold. Hell, surface area even helps out the giant a little here! The giant's larger body means larger joints means a little less pressure on them.

Now this doesn't answer the question of how well the Giant will do when forced to grapple with Verne Gagne. As I mentioned before, I voted for Gagne because my answer to that question would be "poorly". But be careful when you use physics as an argument. Make sure you know what you're talking about.

(Speaking of which this may not be perfect. If someone more experienced with physics wants to correct me anywhere here, they should feel free.)

 

[Con T.]

I take it to mean the physics issues dead now?

Again, force is much more complicated than any of is are making it out to be, and a physicist would likely shake his head at this thread. But yes, pressure is equal to force divided by area, so there's that.

If you really want a metric, here's a lil thread from our own site. I'm assuming Gelgarin is using Meltzer metrics, because I rarely anyone but Meltz banter the 10k number. So, here's his list of top ten draws from 1908-2008.

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=170683

Now, in looking at it... Andre and Verne really do show up in the mid numbers more often than not. Verne appears once at #2, and Andre appears once tied with Flair for #3 one year. What's really telling is when you count how many times they show up on this list, as frankly I was stunned. I would have imagined that because Andre had so many issues, he wouldn't have shown up too many times on the list.

Gagne's name appears five times. Andre appears 14 times on the list. Now granted, I'm sure this doesn't take into account the shows Verne booked, but this isn't exactly the booker tourney, otherwise Vince wouldn't have been bounced in round one. But at the end of the day, Andre was a draw for consistently longer. Meltzer also have bonus points for drawing 20,000, 30,000 and upward, so there's also a chance Andre just drew larger audiences, and that's how he wound up in the top ten.

Point being, there's your little metric if ya wanted. And he truth was, I was really close to voting Verne, to be frank. But I'm a vengeful fucker, kinda like Verne and when someone acts like a douche...

Well, here ya go, Andre

 

[Gelgarin]

You'd already voted; what the fuck are you talking about?

Anyway; I actually quoted that issue of WON during my debate league match against Irish a few years back, and I acknowledged what a shit source for numbers it is there as well.

The first problem is the total lack of context, Andre was the number five draw in 1974, lovely; how many gates was that? Oh, you don't know? Well I looked it up; he draw a grand total of seven gates. But that's not all; do you know how many of those gets were when he was wrestling against a star bigger than himself? Every single one. Andre drew seven gates of 10,000+ because he wrestled against Bruno or Sheik seven times. He wrestled no end of matches against talent his own level, never coming close to the 10k threshold because he wasn't a draw. In fact, during the 1970's (Andre's prime) he only once drew 10,000 fans for a match against a less prolific draw then himself, which was his first contest against Don Leo Jonathan in Canada (fun story: Andre got himself DQ'ed for the first bait and switch - in the rematch DLJ actually tore the ring post off the apron and beat Andre senseless with it)

The second problem with those numbers is that for some reason they credit Andre as being the long draw for a ton of battle royal matches. Seriously; Meltzar credited every battle royal to the person who won it... I'm still baffled as to why. Battle royals used to draw big numbers because they were all star shows.

The third problem is that they're wrong, or at least, the guy who everyone takes to be the credible authority on this subject (Matt Farmer) claims that they are wrong. I'm not spending months sifting through data to get to the bottom on the question; I'll just blinding believe the guy who isn't a fucking moron. I did pay special attention to 1981 where Andre is claimed by that list to have been the second biggest draw in the world. 100% of his four matches that drew 10,000 included Hulk Hogan or Bob Backlund.

Here is a slightly more in depth analysis as each man's status as a draw.

Verne Gagne's prime as a draw was during the 1950's when only Thesz, Rocca and Kowalski outdrew him on US soil. During the 1960's he was running AWA, and basically following the TNA model of filming most of their matches inside a TV studio (and the remainder in Minnesota where nobody pulled 10k). Therefore looking at his live gate figures is daft, and it might be better to consider that his television show habitually drew in excess of 60% of the available television audience.

Andre's prime as a draw was during the 1970's when The Sheik, Bruno, Billy Graham, Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund, Harley Race, Dick the Bruiser, Dusty Rhodes and Ivan Koloff all drew better numbers than he did (actually he tied with Koloff, but Andre worked more tag matches in Japan, so I'm giving Koloff the credit).

Andre's numbers do continue into the 1980's, but the trend doesn't change. There is no period in time where Andre was one of the top draws in the country, whichever way you look at it. In contrast, Verne Gagne was, for an entire decade. The Giant's career might lasted longer, but I fail to see why that should impress me. Kane has been drawing numbers for one hell of a lot longer than John Cena; doesn't change who is the better draw or who is the better wrestler.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Andre's just too big for a guy Gagne's size to be effective in this match. He was nearly impossible to get off his feet! Andre can power out of most of Gagne's stuff before getting in any serious danger. People are getting mad at the "Andre's big argument", but there's a reason that Andre used to beat on guys smaller than him with no issue. He only struggled/lost when he was on the guys home turf, so I could see Gagne pulling this off if the match was in Minnesota or the AWA Region or something, but it's not.

Vote Andre.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Google this: Akira Maeda vs Andre the Giant. Or don't because I'll give you the cliffnotes version.

It's not ludicrous because that actually happened. Andre the Giant got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by someone around the same size as Gagne. The story goes that Andre was persuaded not to cooperate with Maeda by some of the other workers because Maeda was a cunt and Andre was a memetic badass and therefore could get away with it. The match started and Andre no-sold everything, and rag dolled Maeda a bit. And then Maeda kicked Andre's ass. Literally kicked his ass for a solid half hour without Andre doing a fucking thing to stop him. If he'd wanted to, he could have ended the match at his leisure but Andre was booked to win. However, wanting the match to end he lay down, Inoki came down the ramp had an arguement with Maeda, the match was thrown out and Andre's reputation as a good fighter was ruined.

I have seen this match and I disagree somewhat in your telling of it. We will go with the premise that the other wrestlers asked Andre to no sell and tank the match because at that time Meada was unpopular. At the start Andre several times grabbed meada and basically sat on him, not allowing him up and held him like that for several minutes at a pop. Once it became clear Andre was not going to follow a script or cooperate Meada did indeed start kicking Andre's legs. During this period of the match Andre got his hands on Meada several times and threw him out of the ring. This went on for awhile until Inoki came to ringside, at which point Andre laid down but Meada refused to pin him. The match was then stopped.

Now, here is where our opinions vary. Andre got his hands on Meada several times once the 'shoot' started, yet even then he refused to do anything other then toss Meada out of the ring. Had Andre wanted to I belive he could have hurt Meada. Also, your theory that Andre wanted the match to end so he lay done is silly. If Andre was in so much pain and wanted out why not just leave? I think him laying down was an insult to Meada, much the same way Jarrett laying down for Hogan was insulting.

And finally, this match took place in 1986, well past Andre's prime and in the middle of his severe injury problems. If this is what you are hanging you hat on its pretty bad.

Add to that how notoriously bad Andre's legs were for much of his career (someone mentioned The Princess Bride, did you know that for the scene where little Cary Elwes has hanging onto Andre's back, they actually had to employ scaffolding because Andre couldn't support his weight?)

I have always disbelieved the story about The Princess Bride. Andre wrestled the likes of Studd and Bundy before and after the movie was shot so I find it hard to believe he couldn't lift Elwes. But lets say it is true. So what? That was 1986, after Andre's prime. In the 1970s Andre's legs were fine. He was much lighter and used to run around the ring and throw dropkicks.

Don't get me wrong; there are some great names there (although I wouldn't really call it the cream of the crop - he never faced the era's top draws such as Bruno, Sheik, Backlund or Race)

The first problem is the total lack of context, Andre was the number five draw in 1974, lovely; how many gates was that? Oh, you don't know? Well I looked it up; he draw a grand total of seven gates. But that's not all; do you know how many of those gets were when he was wrestling against a star bigger than himself? Every single one. Andre drew seven gates of 10,000+ because he wrestled against Bruno or Sheik seven times.

Thought he never wrestled Bruno? And Andre did wrestle Race.

You see that post where Gelgarin talks about Lou Thesz (I assume) trying to submit a concussed Verne Gagne for three quarters of an hour and can't? Read it.

And you saw the one were Thesz said Gagne would never go over Andre?

I would also like to point out that just because it is a submission match does not mean that a submission hold must be used. One of the most famous submission matches is the I Quit match from Starcade 85. In it two men who did not used submission holds wrestled. Blanchard used the Slingshot Suplex while Magnum used the Belly to Belly suplex. Both men pounded and bloodied each other until one finally quit. To think Andre couldn't do this to Gagne is silly, regardless of what Thesz says about Gagne. In my opinion Andre has a good chance of winning.

That being said I think Gagne has a better chance.

Andre, even in his prime had trouble with smaller, more technically wrestlers. Andre struggled and lost matches to men like Race, Bockwinkel, Inoki and El Santo. I think that trend would continue here. Add to that the already pointed out skill of Gagne to make people submit and I think this is Gagne's match. I still maintain Andre has a chance and that most of the stuff said against him here is silly, but this is Gagne's match to win or lose.

Lastly I would just like to add that I am thrilled that Andre, Gagne, Thesz, Sammartino and Backland are doing so well this year. While I am not one to argue that all old school guys should go over I do believe that they often get the shaft since noone takes the time to learn about or watch their matches. Whoever wins this match, I will be happy they advance.

 

[Gelgarin]

Thought he never wrestled Bruno? And Andre did wrestle Race

Never wrestled against Bruno; they teamed together a number of times. You are correct on the Race front though.

And you saw the one were Thesz said Gagne would never go over Andre?

I'm pretty sure that quote you're referring to isn't real; it's something Shattered Dreams made up for the purposes of being a dick.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Never wrestled against Bruno; they teamed together a number of times. You are correct on the Race front though.

Fair enough.

I'm pretty sure that quote you're referring to isn't real; it's something Shattered Dreams made up for the purposes of being a dick.

I withdraw that point then.

 

[TUFFY54]

Andre The Giant

I know Verne is a submission specialist, but that doesn't mean he would win this. People are forgetting that the would have to actually get Andre in a submission for him to tap out. Andre the Giant doesn't go down easy, especially for guys that much smaller than him. Also, Andre has one of the best submissions of all time. HE JUST STANDS ON YOU! All Andre has to do is smash Gagne till he taps out. Then do it again and again.

 

[The Brain]

I've avoided this one because I just don't know. I think this is the stipulation Gagne needed to get by Andre. Verne is a great submission wrestler and has more stamina than Andre. I think the match slightliy favors Verne. I don't remember seeing Andre getting anyone to submit by sitting on him like so many have suggested. I'll keep it short because I won't be bothered if either advances but my vote goes to Gagne.

 

[JJYanks121]

I'm going to start this the way the movie Easy A started. Why? Because Emma Stone is hot, that's why.

"The rumors of Andre's immortality are greatly exaggerated".

When Andre Roussimoff entered the world of wrestling in the early 1970's, he stood out. WELL FREAKIN DUH! Dude was huge compared to most humans. However, I believe that any argument FOR Andre in this debate comes very much from the train of thought given to us in the buildup to Wrestlemania 3.

Because this is the point wrestling got huge, and because most of us didn't know about world wrestling before that point, we believed it when they said Andre hadn't lost in over 15 years and had not even been bodyslammed. It was a great story and it led to the biggest match of all time. Why not believe it?

It was nice in the 80's, but we're debating in 2012 and we know better. We got Yokozuna's fat ass out of the tournament because Batista was deemed able to slam him. Now we're saying a submission specialist can't submit Andre because he's too big? Come on!

Andre was great, but not because he was such a fabulous wrestler, immensely strong, or absolutely unbeatable. He was actually none of those things. He was a novelty, a traveling sideshow that people paid to see due to his sheer size. Nowadays, we've seen plenty of huge guys that it doesn't phase us, but back then he was the first of his kind. You could imagine that seeing a man that big performing even the simplest of wrestling moves would seem pretty cool. Today we have the Big Show who is similar in size, more athletic, and even a good entertainer.........and no one bats an eye. He's losing his vote to The Rock as he should, so let's turn this one around and do the right thing.

Andre's star power comes from being an attraction, not from being some great wrestler. We are talking about a wrestling match here and one where you must submit your opponent. The only argument I've heard on Andre's side is "he'd sit on Verne". So we're assuming that Verne Gagne, one of the best wrestlers of all time and an olympian, would somehow be stupid enough to get caught by a slow, plodding big guy, be put down and then sat on? THIS is the argument you are supporting?

Someone like Verne would be smart enough to, oh I don't know, MOVE! You move around for a bit, tire the big guy out (I know he wrestled 60 minutes but watch those matches, he doesn't do much in them), and then take him to the mat and slap a submission hold on him. I know Verne's favorite is the sleeper but my guess is that some crossface or leg submission might work better and trust me, Verne could use any submission hold he wants.

We somehow voted RVD over Harley freakin Race due to it being "ECW rules" and somehow that benefitted RVD because he was in ECW. In this case, a submission match actually does benefit Gagne and he could, should, and would win here. The sideshow was fun for the first few rounds but people have seen him and understand he's big by now. He's seen his time in this tournament and now it's time to go home and watch Jason Segel do a perfect impression of him.

Please do the right thing here and vote Gagne. Anything less would be uncivilized.

 

[Larry]

I'm going to start this the way the movie Easy A started. Why? Because Emma Stone is hot, that's why.

"The rumors of Andre's immortality are greatly exaggerated".

When Andre Roussimoff entered the world of wrestling in the early 1970's, he stood out. WELL FREAKIN DUH! Dude was huge compared to most humans. However, I believe that any argument FOR Andre in this debate comes very much from the train of thought given to us in the buildup to Wrestlemania 3.

Because this is the point wrestling got huge, and because most of us didn't know about world wrestling before that point, we believed it when they said Andre hadn't lost in over 15 years and had not even been bodyslammed. It was a great story and it led to the biggest match of all time. Why not believe it?

It was nice in the 80's, but we're debating in 2012 and we know better. We got Yokozuna's fat ass out of the tournament because Batista was deemed able to slam him. Now we're saying a submission specialist can't submit Andre because he's too big? Come on!

Andre was great, but not because he was such a fabulous wrestler, immensely strong, or absolutely unbeatable. He was actually none of those things. He was a novelty, a traveling sideshow that people paid to see due to his sheer size. Nowadays, we've seen plenty of huge guys that it doesn't phase us, but back then he was the first of his kind. You could imagine that seeing a man that big performing even the simplest of wrestling moves would seem pretty cool. Today we have the Big Show who is similar in size, more athletic, and even a good entertainer.........and no one bats an eye. He's losing his vote to The Rock as he should, so let's turn this one around and do the right thing.

Andre's star power comes from being an attraction, not from being some great wrestler. We are talking about a wrestling match here and one where you must submit your opponent. The only argument I've heard on Andre's side is "he'd sit on Verne". So we're assuming that Verne Gagne, one of the best wrestlers of all time and an olympian, would somehow be stupid enough to get caught by a slow, plodding big guy, be put down and then sat on? THIS is the argument you are supporting?

Someone like Verne would be smart enough to, oh I don't know, MOVE! You move around for a bit, tire the big guy out (I know he wrestled 60 minutes but watch those matches, he doesn't do much in them), and then take him to the mat and slap a submission hold on him. I know Verne's favorite is the sleeper but my guess is that some crossface or leg submission might work better and trust me, Verne could use any submission hold he wants.

We somehow voted RVD over Harley freakin Race due to it being "ECW rules" and somehow that benefitted RVD because he was in ECW. In this case, a submission match actually does benefit Gagne and he could, should, and would win here. The sideshow was fun for the first few rounds but people have seen him and understand he's big by now. He's seen his time in this tournament and now it's time to go home and watch Jason Segel do a perfect impression of him.

Please do the right thing here and vote Gagne. Anything less would be uncivilized.

That's a well crafted case, but I don't buy it, and I think your misconstruing the facts a bit. It is true that later in Andre's career he was a slow plodding big guy and certainly wasn't much of a wrestler. In his prime however, he was an amazing physical specimen not just because he was big, but because he was big AND athletic. You don't hear about too many guys standing 7'4'' doing high dropkicks. Andre was a hell of an athlete and during his best days, that, on top of his overwhelming size made him unstoppable. Sure, he put guys over, who doesn't? The point is that he allowed that stuff to happen, and if he didn't want to do it, he was big enough that you couldn't stop him from changing his mind and putting you down. This applies here to this submission situation because if he want's out of it there isn't really anything you can do to stop him from breaking out of it one way or another. Just as an example, between me and my girlfriend there is a 4 inch height difference. If I give her my back and allow her to attempt a choke hold, she doesn't have the height or leverage to get it on in any meaningful capacity, and I am a lot bigger so I can throw her off of me. This is the same case with Andre and Verne. Andre isn't going down to the ground willingly, and with that said that means he isn't going to the ground at all so Verne has to get him standing. That's just not going to happen.

Here's an illustration of the reality here.

Even with a guy a bit bigger like Gagne Andre could still reach out, palm his head, and keep him at bay. If he then chose to try and shoot on his legs, good luck moving those tree trunks Verne, you better have a big axe. Then Andre could just pick him up and toss him around, and do whatever else he wanted to him.

Also, even as a sideshow spectacle, Andre did pack houses, he did sell like crazy, and that's partially why he was able to go anywhere, because he made money regardless of why. I still maintain as well that it wasn't just the size, but the athleticism in his prime as well. It was a unique combination that no one had ever seen before and Andre was a formidable wrestler. He would come up with any number of ways to beat Gagne, and his brute strength, size, and status all point to Andre winning this match.

 

[JJYanks121]

That's a well crafted case, but I don't buy it, and I think your misconstruing the facts a bit. It is true that later in Andre's career he was a slow plodding big guy and certainly wasn't much of a wrestler. In his prime however, he was an amazing physical specimen not just because he was big, but because he was big AND athletic. You don't hear about too many guys standing 7'4'' doing high dropkicks. Andre was a hell of an athlete and during his best days, that, on top of his overwhelming size made him unstoppable. Sure, he put guys over, who doesn't? The point is that he allowed that stuff to happen, and if he didn't want to do it, he was big enough that you couldn't stop him from changing his mind and putting you down. This applies here to this submission situation because if he want's out of it there isn't really anything you can do to stop him from breaking out of it one way or another. Just as an example, between me and my girlfriend there is a 4 inch height difference. If I give her my back and allow her to attempt a choke hold, she doesn't have the height or leverage to get it on in any meaningful capacity, and I am a lot bigger so I can throw her off of me. This is the same case with Andre and Verne. Andre isn't going down to the ground willingly, and with that said that means he isn't going to the ground at all so Verne has to get him standing. That's just not going to happen.

Here's an illustration of the reality here.

Even with a guy a bit bigger like Gagne Andre could still reach out, palm his head, and keep him at bay. If he then chose to try and shoot on his legs, good luck moving those tree trunks Verne, you better have a big axe. Then Andre could just pick him up and toss him around, and do whatever else he wanted to him.

Also, even as a sideshow spectacle, Andre did pack houses, he did sell like crazy, and that's partially why he was able to go anywhere, because he made money regardless of why. I still maintain as well that it wasn't just the size, but the athleticism in his prime as well. It was a unique combination that no one had ever seen before and Andre was a formidable wrestler. He would come up with any number of ways to beat Gagne, and his brute strength, size, and status all point to Andre winning this match.

Yeah, but there's an even bigger flaw to your thinking as well as the 60 other dudes who have voted wrongly. You can't have it both ways. Eiither Andre is immovable (like Vince told you in 1987) or he's an athletic big man. Either way though, he loses.

Let's say he's the athletic big man in his prime because that's when he was "more dominant". At that point, he's a less athletic Big Show. Yeah, I said it. Watch Big Show at the beginning of his career. He also busted out drop kicks and even went to the top rope. Big Show is every bit as big and every bit as athletic as Andre ever could be. The difference is the era they are/were presented in. Andre was made out to be this dominant monster but he's not immovable. You'd see pictures like the one you posted all the time because it showed off his size and it showed people why they should check out "the giant" just like they'd want to check out the bearded lady. It's an attraction, but it doesn't make him some fantastic wrestler.

The only argument you have is that if Andre gets you, you won't get away. Well who's to say he would get Gagne in his grasp. Surely Gagne is quicker than Andre. Surely he's not some idiot heel waiting to be beaten. He was a top babyface whose win/loss record is every bit as good as Andre's and that's because of his abilities, not because bookers simply thought "hmmm, he's big, guess he should win?"

It's absolutely disgusting that Andre the Giant is winning a submission match right now. Deplorable even. Based on the poor arguments in this thread, I guess Andre is the guy to win the whole thing because stipulations don't matter and he's too big for anyone to beat him. That's bull in this thread and bull in general. Andre should be losing here because if this match happened, he'd lose. Great wrestlers are able to take big guys down and Verne Gagne is a great wrestler. He'd get Andre down, lock a submission hold on, and it would be over.

If you haven't yet, vote Gagne so that this tournament doesn't continue to look like a joke.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Gagne is clearly the submission & mat specialist here. The mat based amateur style was Gagne's bread and butter. However, I just can't vote for him over Andre the Giant here.

Andre during his prime was a freak. In the world of kayfabe, Andre was 7'4" and 350-400 pounds in his prime. In Gagne's prime, kayfabe, he was about 5'10" and weighed around 200-210 lbs. Gagne's against a man 18 inches taller than he is, almost literally double his weight and was a legitimate powerhouse with freakish strength. I'm sorry, I just don't see Gagne even being able to take Andre off his feet, let alone actually hook in some sort of submission hold that Andre wouldn't easily power his way out of.

David and Goliath matches can be fun but there are always limits. Even the most mundane submission move at the hands of Andre could be devestating. If Andre took a seat on Gagne's back and put him in a reverse chinlock, what's Gagne gonna do? He's certainly not able to drag Andre to the ropes so the hold will be broken. He's certainly not going to just hulk up and power his way out of the hold. He's certainly not going to manage to move Andre's bulk off of him.

Andre takes this and I'm shocked to see that so many have voted for Gagne.