WCW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (2) Andre The Giant vs. (11) CM Punk

[klunderbunker]

This is a fourth round match in the WCW Region. It is a Tables Ladders and Chairs match. It will be held at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, Georgia.

Rules: The winner of the match will be the first person to climb a ladder and grab the case above the ring. Tables, ladders and chairs will be available at ringside for both competitors to use. Anything goes.

#2. Andre the Giant

Vs.

#11. CM Punk

​

This match takes place one week following the third round.

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Slyfox696]

If you vote for CM Punk because you think Andre cannot climb a ladder, I will ban you.

Okay, I might be joking...but I might not be. Anyways, this match has to go to Andre. The man was so powerful he could overturn a car with his bare hands, what do you think he'll be able to do with weapons at his disposal? Obviously Punk isn't going to be putting Andre through any tables, and I don't think he can swing hard enough to hurt Andre.

Andre is the clear and easy winner here. And before you numbnuts try to claim Andre can't climb a ladder, here's a video of him climbing to the top rope (start at 1:50). Andre wins.

 

[Davi323]

Andre the Giant in 1988 couldn't climb a ladder to save his life...but this isn't Andre the Giant in 1988, this is Andre the Giant, in his prime, Andre the Giant from the 1970s would certainly have been able to climb a ladder. I agree with Sly completely that it would be ridiculous to use the Andre can't climb a ladder argument.

However, while I have voted consistently for Andre the Giant in previous rounds, and voted against Punk, this is where Andre's run ends. In a TLC match, where CM Punk has access to ladders and chairs that can be used as weapons, I think that effectively neutralizes Andre's distinct size advantage. If this match were really to happen, it's fairly obvious what Punk's strategy would be...grab a weapon and use it to strike at Andre's legs. If Punk can ram Andre with a ladder, as we have seen wrestlers do in countless ladder matches, he can keep Andre from getting his hands around his neck, while at the same time doing a lot of damage. This is where I disagree with Sly. I think giving Punk access to chairs that he can hit the back of Andre's knees with will hurt Andre considerably.

Because of Andre's size, if his legs are damaged in the course of a match, he is pretty much done for. Andre's weight puts a lot of strain on them already, and repeated strikes to his knees with a ladder or chair would exacerbate that strain quickly. This is one match where I think Punk's speed advantage will definitely come in to play. Punk would employ a classic hit and run strategy, striking with a weapon and then backing away to prevent Andre from retaliating. Andre's weapon strikes would certainly be stronger, but Punk is going to be more likely to avoid most of them to mitigate the damage. Andre isn't quick enough, even in his prime, to avoid Punk's. Punk's strikes might not hurt as much individually, but he should be able to get more in than Andre, and the damage done would be more cumulative in effect than immediate.

With a different stipulation, Andre might wipe the floor with CM Punk. But I think this type of match definitely works to Punk's advantage, not Andre's.

 

[Coco]

Punk can climb faster than Andre. I've seen ladders crumble under the weight of Big Show. Oh, and then there's this:

Colour me convinced. Punk. All day, every day.

 

[Slyfox696]

Andre the Giant in 1988 couldn't climb a ladder to save his life...but this isn't Andre the Giant in 1988, this is Andre the Giant, in his prime, Andre the Giant from the 1970s would certainly have been able to climb a ladder. I agree with Sly completely that it would be ridiculous to use the Andre can't climb a ladder argument.

Good.

In a TLC match, where CM Punk has access to ladders and chairs that can be used as weapons, I think that effectively neutralizes Andre's distinct size advantage. If this match were really to happen, it's fairly obvious what Punk's strategy would be...grab a weapon and use it to strike at Andre's legs. If Punk can ram Andre with a ladder, as we have seen wrestlers do in countless ladder matches, he can keep Andre from getting his hands around his neck, while at the same time doing a lot of damage.

You seem to be forgetting Andre can use weapons as well. And since Andre is much bigger and stronger, it's much easier for him to wield the heavy weapons like a ladder or a table, and it's going to hurt MUCH more than when Punk hits Andre. Furthermore, if Punk tried to ram Andre with a ladder, Andre would just grab it and rip it out of his hands since, like I said, he's so much stronger than Punk

If you agree the ladder plays no part in the match, there's simply no way you can say weapons work to Punk's advantage. Andre has the longer reach, Andre is much stronger, Andre is much bigger (making it more difficult for Punk to put him through a table) and Andre doesn't have to cover nearly as much distance on the ladder.

There is no way I'd see Andre losing this match to Punk.

 

[Davi323]

Good.


You seem to be forgetting Andre can use weapons as well. And since Andre is much bigger and stronger, it's much easier for him to wield the heavy weapons like a ladder or a table, and it's going to hurt MUCH more than when Punk hits Andre. Furthermore, if Punk tried to ram Andre with a ladder, Andre would just grab it and rip it out of his hands since, like I said, he's so much stronger than Punk

If you agree the ladder plays no part in the match, there's simply no way you can say weapons work to Punk's advantage. Andre has the longer reach, Andre is much stronger, Andre is much bigger (making it more difficult for Punk to put him through a table) and Andre doesn't have to cover nearly as much distance on the ladder.

There is no way I'd see Andre losing this match to Punk.

I only said that CLIMBING the ladder isn't an issue. Using the ladder as a weapon is a completely different situation. You don't need to be very big to use the ladder as a weapon, this goes on in every ladder match, regardless of the size of the wrestlers involved. It's just not that heavy.

 

[Coco]

Rob Van Dam once beat Big Show in a ladder match. Clearly, Show's ability to swing a ladder harder didn't invalidate the advantage Van Dam enjoyed as a ladder match veteran. Punk's been similarly successful in ladder matches while Andre is a circus freak in the same vein as Show. Punk CAN win this match just as Van Dam defeated Show.

Vote: CM Punk

 

[Slyfox696]

I only said that CLIMBING the ladder isn't an issue.

Yes, that's what I meant as well.

Using the ladder as a weapon is a completely different situation.

Agreed. The bigger and stronger guy is more likely to gain the advantage from weapons than the smaller and weaker guy.

You don't need to be very big to use the ladder as a weapon

No, but most rational people would agree the bigger and stronger guy would swing a weapon with greater force than a smaller and weaker guy.

It's just not that heavy.

Neither is a baseball bat, but there's a reason why guys like Bonds took steroids to become stronger.

The bigger you are, the harder you swing, the more force you generate, and the harder you strike whatever it is you're swinging at. Andre is clearly the bigger and stronger man, while Punk is clearly the smaller and weaker man.

The weapons benefit Andre much more than they do Punk, and since you already agree climbing a ladder plays no part, then Andre should win.

Rob Van Dam once beat Big Show in a ladder match. Clearly, Show's ability to swing a ladder harder didn't invalidate the advantage Van Dam enjoyed as a ladder match veteran. Punk's been similarly successful in ladder matches while Andre is a circus freak in the same vein as Show. Punk CAN win this match just as Van Dam defeated Show.

Vote: CM Punk

Great logic. Because two completely different wrestlers competed in a match which is only kind of related to this one, that means Punk will beat Andre?

Well, Andre beat Kamala in a cage match which shows his ability to win gimmick matches, so clearly that shows Andre WILL win this match against Punk.

Vote: Andre the Giant.

 

[Coco]

I once saw an episode of Seinfeld where, in kayfabe, George Costanza could swing a baseball bat more effectively than any of the Yankees. It was an episode where abstinence from sex caused George to be quicker mentally than he'd ever been in his life. Punk, on an average day, is smarter than George Costanza at his baseball bat swinging best. I also believe Punk to be smarter than Andre. There's no doubt in my mind by using the Costanza Effect, Punk can use his smarts to swing a ladder harder than Andre.

Vote: CM Punk

Great logic. Because two completely different wrestlers competed in a match which is only kind of related to this one, that means Punk will beat Andre?

Well, Andre beat Kamala in a cage match which shows his ability to win gimmick matches, so clearly that shows Andre WILL win this match against Punk.

Vote: Andre the Giant.

All that matters here, essentially, is one's ability to win a ladder match. Your argument hinges on bigger, stronger men succeeding against smaller, quicker men in THIS MATCH TYPE. The Van Dam vs Big Show example effectively invalidates your hypothetical. I like my evidence-based argument over your conjecture-based one. Now feel free to do that thing where you double-talk like a lawyer to suit your needs while I do that thing where I roll my eyes at you. Deal? Good.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I once saw an episode of Seinfeld where, in kayfabe, George Costanza could swing a baseball bat more effectively than any of the Yankees. It was an episode where abstinence from sex caused George to be quicker mentally than he'd ever been in his life. Punk, on an average day, is smarter than George Costanza at his baseball bat swinging best. I also believe Punk to be smarter than Andre. There's no doubt in my mind by using the Costanza Effect, Punk can use his smarts to swing a ladder harder than Andre.

Vote: CM Punk

Can Punk speak Portuguese?

All that matters here, essentially, is one's ability to win a ladder match. Your argument hinges on bigger, stronger men succeeding against smaller, quicker men in THIS MATCH TYPE. The Van Dam vs Big Show example effectively invalidates your hypothetical. I like my evidence-based argument over your conjecture-based one.

If the T stood for Talking and the C stood for sticking their penis in the Divas' Cooters I'd you may be on to something but that is not the case.

Andre wins this easily, I may not be able to vote for him in the next round after this though since he may be in prison for killing CM Punk with one of his chair shots. Skinny fat goin' down.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

An unbeatable Giant vs a TLC specialist... hold on I'm getting a flashback here...

[YOUTUBE]N3vigtYbmqY[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]cUFQK5N2yzE&feature=relmfu[/YOUTUBE]​

... and Jeff has much more experience in Ladder Matches than Rey. What was that about experience again?

Now, the genres are different and I'm not a big fan of the A is better than B because he never lost because that isn't the model that is used now. As such I don't think that comparing a 'prime' Andre with Taker is much of a stretch and I KNOW that Punk is comparable to Hardy in this particular environment (and I believe that the inclusion of tables really works against Punk and for the Giant).

There will be people that will try and persuade you that Ladder matches are more suitable to the smaller quicker guys but don't let this sway you, for legends like the Undertaker or Andre the Giant, a TLC match is an exercise in smaller guys bumping like crazy in a 'never say die' but ultimately futile effort.

Andre to proceed, leaving Punk laying among a mass of kindling.

 

[D-Man]

Actually thinking that Andre the Giant could lose this match is.,.. well... just plain stupid. I know CM Punk is skilled, he's won MITB ladder matches, and is a multi-time world champion... oh, and he's REALLY REALLY popular on the internet... but this match is so much more than just a ladder match. And there aren't six guys competing at the same time. Andre the Giant, the most agile big-man and one of the greatest wrestlers in history, not only gets a one-on-one shot against a guy half his size, but he isn't confined to any rules. Do you understand what he could do to somebody in that type of an environment?? Honestly, I can't think of a good enough argument for anyone to defeat him in this type of match, let alone the internet hero, CM Punk.

Vote Andre. It just makes sense.

 

[Coco]

An unbeatable Giant vs a TLC specialist... hold on I'm getting a flashback here...



Now, the genres are different and I'm not a big fan of the A is better than B because he never lost because that isn't the model that is used now. As such I don't think that comparing a 'prime' Andre with Taker is much of a stretch and I KNOW that Punk is comparable to Hardy in this particular environment (and I believe that the inclusion of tables really works against Punk and for the Giant).

There will be people that will try and persuade you that Ladder matches are more suitable to the smaller quicker guys but don't let this sway you, for legends like the Undertaker or Andre the Giant, a TLC match is an exercise in smaller guys bumping like crazy in a 'never say die' but ultimately futile effort.

Andre to proceed, leaving Punk laying among a mass of kindling.

You're comparing a midcard Jeff Hardy to Punk at his peak? Fuck off. My example where Show was on the most dominant tear of his career and Van Dam was on the down-slide shows what happens when an adequate high-flier (ie: above midcard status) gets thrown in a ladder match with a capable giant. And what happens is the flier wins. That example holds far more weight than Taker-Hardy.

 

[Ming]

Now Andre is perfectly capable of climbing a ladder... just not quickly. CM Punk on the other hand is a ladder match veteran having won the Money In The Bank Ladder Match twice (the only ever wrestler to win the most difficult ladder match in the history of WWE back-to-back) and to add to his experience in ladder matches he's also WAY faster than Andre. I'm also sure that once I watched Big Show (a man of very similar stature to Andre, in Andre's prime) have a ladder step collapse from under him, if that happens to Andre which it very well can then he's already beaten, Punk will take advantage and beat the fuck out of him with whatever weapon he can find. A steel chair, sledgehammer, ring bell or another ladder are all more than dangerous enough to seriously hurt Andre. Once Andre's taken enough damage and is incapacitated, Punk climbs the ladder and wins. Now that's the kayfabe explanation as to why Punk wins this, if you want to vote on who's had a bigger impact in wrestling blah, blah, blah. Then vote Andre, but you should all know that if you vote this way that Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold Steve Austin should win the tournament EVERY year without question. Wouldn't that be rather dull?

Vote CM Punk.

 

[Coco]

but this match is so much more than just a ladder match.

Punk's won two TLC matches. So add that to your CM Punk stats. But a serious question now: How is this more than a ladder match? I've seen guys use chairs and tables in ladder matches. Just the other day I was watching Rock vs Triple H from SummerSlam 1998. Lo and behold what did I see? A chair being used as a weapon. Hell, TLC bouts were a result of tables and chairs being used in a ladder match. It's all legal in a ladder match. This is no different than a ladder match. No different.

 

[Danger Burger]

I'm afraid to comment cause i'm not as intelligent as you gentlemen, nor do i have the ability to feign intelligence through an ability to debate but i'm going punk on this!

For one thing, theres no way andre can climb a ladder! I joke! But whether or not the ladder could support his weight is another joke... Where was i?

Andre is no slouch, he's a panzerfaust if anything, but punk was raised on Attitude Era, ECW and backyard wrestling... Weapons play hugely to his advantage!! Andre is huge and powerful, he can definately hit harder... But punk has the speed, intelligence and experience to be able to dodge and keep away, Andre on the other hand is the biggest target on the planet.Punks history of ladder match success is in his favour too. Andre can climb whatever the hell he wants (i certainly will not be stopping him) and hell, he could probly grab the belt from standing, but punk is good at this kind of match, its a fact. Facts are useful.

He couldnt get Andre up for a GTS, but he can launch everything he has at him. Thats not to say that Andre couldnt also toss him around like a ragdoll though... But i doubt punk will want to go toe to toe with hi anyway, i'm calling that a wash!

Be kind ripping this to shreds, i have a sensitive disposition.

 

[klunderbunker]

Punk has one chance in this: if he can get Andre far away from the ring then sprint back as fast as he can to a ring with a ladder already set up and climb it very quickly.

Unfortunately for Punk, Andre isn't stupid enough to try anything like that. If Andre doesn't want to go somewhere, he's not going to go and that's all there is to it. All of Punk's offense is worthless here. He's not going to be able to get Andre in the Vice, there's no way he can give him a GTS, and Andre is probably too tall to high kick. The springboard clothesline would just make Andre laugh.

Like I said the only chance Punk has is to get Andre down on the floor at least halfway up the aisle. The problem with that is there's almost nothing Punk can do to put Andre down. It took 1987 Hulk Hogan to put down Andre when Andre was a shell of himself. CM Punk is no Hulk Hogan, and he has no chance here.

Andre wins after punching a chair into Punk's face and knocking Punk off his straight edge perch, through alcoholism and into the fifth step of AA.

 

[D-Man]

Punk's won two TLC matches. So add that to your CM Punk stats. But a serious question now: How is this more than a ladder match? I've seen guys use chairs and tables in ladder matches. Just the other day I was watching Rock vs Triple H from SummerSlam 1998. Lo and behold what did I see? A chair being used as a weapon. Hell, TLC bouts were a result of tables and chairs being used in a ladder match. It's all legal in a ladder match. This is no different than a ladder match. No different.

I really can't disagree with that. I've seen it before, as well. But a TLC is always made out to have a completely different dynamic and the story is usually told that way when these guys perform in it.

But once again, Punk never faced Andre. Punk's never faced anyone LIKE Andre in this type of matchup. Punk's record is-what-it-is but it still doesn't make me blink an eye here. I watched Andre in his prime, during his prime. I didn't watch YouTube videos, 30-40 years later. I've seen what he's done and what he would do in this type of match. Unless Punk stuffs a time bomb in Andre's tights and it actually goes off before Andre swallows it like Jim Carrey in The Mask, he has no chance here.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Now Andre is perfectly capable of climbing a ladder... just not quickly.

If Andre beats the holy hell out of Punk which is a strong possibility, then Andre can take all the time he wants.

CM Punk on the other hand is a ladder match veteran having won the Money In The Bank Ladder Match twice (the only ever wrestler to win the most difficult ladder match in the history of WWE back-to-back) and to add to his experience in ladder matches he's also WAY faster than Andre.

1. MITB wins are irrelevant to me. This is an one-on-one encounter.

2. Andre can negate speed by beating the fuck out of Punk so he can take his sweet time climbing the ladder. I imagine Punk will scurry out of the ring first to try to grab a weapon and who will be right there waiting for him inside the ring?

I'm also sure that once I watched Big Show (a man of very similar stature to Andre, in Andre's prime) have a ladder step collapse from under him, if that happens to Andre which it very well can then he's already beaten, Punk will take advantage and beat the fuck out of him with whatever weapon he can find.

1. Big Show had a special ladder created for him. Why not assume the same will happen here?

2. Also, it depends which Andre we're talking about. If we're talking about 70's Andre who was probably around 350 or so pounds, then it's not a disadvantage. Kane is around 320 or 330 and he can climb a ladder without any problem. Shit, I've seen Mark Henry climb a ladder.

A steel chair, sledgehammer, ring bell or another ladder are all more than dangerous enough to seriously hurt Andre.

Those same weapons are more than dangerous enough to cripple Punk.

Once Andre's taken enough damage and is incapacitated, Punk climbs the ladder and wins. Now that's the kayfabe explanation as to why Punk wins this, if you want to vote on who's had a bigger impact in wrestling blah, blah, blah. Then vote Andre, but you should all know that if you vote this way that Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold Steve Austin should win the tournament EVERY year without question. Wouldn't that be rather dull?

Vote CM Punk.

Choosing the greater wrestler is totally stupid in a tournament to determine who is the greatest wrestler. Right.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

You're comparing a midcard Jeff Hardy to Punk at his peak? Fuck off.

Careful, big man, if you're talking about MitB Punk, you ARE talking about a midcarder. A guy who couldn't beat Show or Orton with factions behind him.

My example where Show was on the most dominant tear of his career and Van Dam was on the down-slide shows what happens when an adequate high-flier (ie: above midcard status) gets thrown in a ladder match with a capable giant. And what happens is the flier wins. That example holds far more weight than Taker-Hardy.

Please! This was a bout for RVD to get a shot at Show's WWeCW Belt - a belt so prestigious that both the WWe and it's Superstars appear to have complete amnesia about it even existing and who had other monster names like Mike Knox and Hardcore Holly as viable contenders! Plus RVD was months removed from defeating John Cena for the WWe Title, whereas Show was months removed from tagging with Kane and feuding with the Spirit Squad. Oh, plus he took a leave of absence 6 weeks later after losing to the legendary Bobby Lashley (while RVD remained for a further 6months after Show left).

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I'm afraid to comment cause i'm not as intelligent as you gentlemen, nor do i have the ability to feign intelligence through an ability to debate but i'm going punk on this!

For one thing, theres no way andre can climb a ladder! I joke! But whether or not the ladder could support his weight is another joke... Where was i?

Andre is no slouch, he's a panzerfaust if anything, but punk was raised on Attitude Era, ECW and backyard wrestling... Weapons play hugely to his advantage!! Andre is huge and powerful, he can definately hit harder... But punk has the speed, intelligence and experience to be able to dodge and keep away, Andre on the other hand is the biggest target on the planet.Punks history of ladder match success is in his favour too. Andre can climb whatever the hell he wants (i certainly will not be stopping him) and hell, he could probly grab the belt from standing, but punk is good at this kind of match, its a fact. Facts are useful.

He couldnt get Andre up for a GTS, but he can launch everything he has at him. Thats not to say that Andre couldnt also toss him around like a ragdoll though... But i doubt punk will want to go toe to toe with hi anyway, i'm calling that a wash!

Be kind ripping this to shreds, i have a sensitive disposition.

Kindly remove Vader as your avatar. He must be earned.

[YOUTUBE]0JAIPuqP6aE[/YOUTUBE]

Fast forward to the 2:10 mark. Chris Jericho and Kane on the ladder together. Kane's billed weight is 323 lbs. Jericho's is 226 lbs. That's 549 lbs. Andre's billed weight was 475 lbs in his prime. That's 74 more lbs on the ladder in the video above, and the ladder seems to be just fine.

[YOUTUBE]3gA_U3NIs24[/YOUTUBE]

For all of you who want to play the "Andre is big and slow card." Spare me. Dude moved great in his prime. Leg drops, chest bombs, big boots - he can climb a ladder just fine.

Ask yourself this:

1. If you think Punk has so much more endurance than Andre, ask yourself who will get tired first: the huge strongman who has to move a 225 lb guy, or the 225 lb guy who has to move the 475 lb guy?

2. When Andre is on the ladder - is Punk going to be able to push the ladder over easily?

3. When Punk is on the ladder - could Andre feasibly push Punk over with his pinky?

(Answer Key: 1 - the 225 lb guy will be more fatigued. 2 - No. 3 - Yes.)

Punk's great and all, but even with his recent success, his resume vs Andre's is roughly consistent with he difference in their body sizes. Andre destroys Punk and then takes him time up the ladder to win.

 

[Big Sexy]

This easily goes to Andre. CM Punk just doesn't have the arsenal to keep a guy like Andre down long enough to climb a ladder and win the match. Punk has made great strides over the last year to become a bigger star but he still doesn't come anywhere near Andre in that department either. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who try to use the Andre can't climb argument, but that is an asinine argument that merely shows desperation from people who can't come up with a legitimate case for Punk.

 

[Benson]

How about Punk gets a hold of the ladder first and repeatedly smashes it into Andre's knees?

 

[JGlass]

In the bar room I said Andre could sneeze and knock CM Punk off a ladder. I was only half kidding.

Let's not water down Andre the Giant by saying he was Big Show strong or even Mark Henry strong... those guys are almost Andre the Giant strong. Almost. This is the guy who body slammed Big John Studd, a man that stood at 6'10" and nearly 400 pounds. CM Punk has trouble getting John Cena, a trim 250 pounder, up for the GTS. Andre will toss CM Punk around like a rag doll before Punk can even think of touching a ladder. It would be a gas to see Andre throw Punk through table after table after table just to entertain his adoring fans.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Punk is able to get his hands on a chair. You think a chair shot would stop Andre the giant? How many times have we seen giants no-sell chair shots?

Answer: A lot. A whole hell of a lot.

After eating a few chair shots, Andre would say with his silly French accent, "What was that, a mosquito?" And then swat that chair out of Punk's hands, at which point Punk would give his signature Ah shit look, and Andre would probably military press toss him out of the ring.

Then there's the issue of Andre climbing a ladder. Actually, it's not an issue at all. We've seen ladders hold The Big Show, Mark Henry, and The Undertaker. In his prime, Andre weighed just about as much as Show, so he should have no trouble making his way to the top of the ladder, and a VERY incapacitated Punk would do little to stop him.

How about Punk gets a hold of the ladder first and repeatedly smashes it into Andre's knees?

Interesting proposition. Tell me, when Punk gets out of the ring to get a ladder and then slides it back into the ring, what is Andre doing? Just standing around watching? Does he wait for Punk to pick up the ladder and smash him in the knees?

No, Andre picks up the ladder first. Even if he picked it up at the same time as Punk, do you really think Andre would lose the tug of war that would result from that? No, Andre would get that ladder, and throw that thing at Punk so hard that the universe will break.

 

[Slyfox696]

I once saw an episode of Seinfeld where, in kayfabe, George Costanza could swing a baseball bat more effectively than any of the Yankees. It was an episode where abstinence from sex caused George to be quicker mentally than he'd ever been in his life. Punk, on an average day, is smarter than George Costanza at his baseball bat swinging best. I also believe Punk to be smarter than Andre. There's no doubt in my mind by using the Costanza Effect, Punk can use his smarts to swing a ladder harder than Andre.

The problem is Punk doesn't practice abstinence, as evidenced by the number of girls he's fucked from the company. Your example fails.

All that matters here, essentially, is one's ability to win a ladder match.

Not really. What matters here is one's ability to win a TLC match. I'd explain the difference to you, but it essentially comes down to the T and the C.

Your argument hinges on bigger, stronger men succeeding against smaller, quicker men in THIS MATCH TYPE. The Van Dam vs Big Show example effectively invalidates your hypothetical.

No it doesn't. If this match was between Van Dam and Big Show, you might have a point. However, Punk wrestles nothing like Van Dam, and Big Show has never been what Andre was. Usually examples are used to show some correlation between the objects. All you've done is demonstrate that Van Dam could beat Big Show. Since Punk is nothing like Van Dam and Big Show was never what Andre was, your example here fails worse than your Seinfeld example.

I like my evidence-based argument over your conjecture-based one.

I think what you mean to say is your shitty example fails, while my logical argument, supported by years of real life examples and common sense, completely ruins your illogical and ultimately foolish argument.

Well, that's probably not what you meant, but it is what you should have said.

Now feel free to do that thing where you double-talk like a lawyer to suit your needs while I do that thing where I roll my eyes at you. Deal? Good.

That's intriguing, but since I did that thing where I mocked your example for the irrelevant drivel it was, what do you do now? I would suggest bowing to me and begging for forgiveness for coming up with such a silly argument. But I'll let you decide.

How about Punk gets a hold of the ladder first and repeatedly smashes it into Andre's knees?

So in other words, you don't have an actual reason why Punk would win, but you like him more, so you contrive a scenario where he MIGHT win?