WCW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (2) Andre The Giant vs. (11) CM Punk

[Bernkastel]

I'm still failing to see why this reinforcement of ladders thing is anything more than pure conjecture. The only thing that comes close to providing a precedent for it is The Big Show 'building' his own ladder to bring to the match, and that's an entirely different thing. If anything, that just goes to show that the company is unwilling to provide anything other than 'regulation' ladders. Big men have always had to make do with what's there in ladder matches. If Mark Henry or Great Khali or, indeed, Big Show have wanted to win ladder matches, they've had to try and shimmy up the same ladders made of tin foil and toothpicks as everyone else.

That's because it's unsafe for them to try and climb something that doesn't support their weight. WWE knew this full well with the Big Show, and obviously decided to have some fun with the angle by having him create his own ladder.

Your second point is silly; of course the WWE [or WCW in this case] would provide reinforced ladders to ensure the safety of their performers. In fact, I'm sure WWE has been doing this on a regular basis whenever they have matches with spots that require multiple superstars to be on a ladder at the same time.

I think you're grasping at straws if you're trying to make an argument for CM Punk by suggesting that WCW provide faulty equipment for Andre to use.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'm still failing to see why this reinforcement of ladders thing is anything more than pure conjecture. The only thing that comes close to providing a precedent for it is The Big Show 'building' his own ladder to bring to the match, and that's an entirely different thing. If anything, that just goes to show that the company is unwilling to provide anything other than 'regulation' ladders. Big men have always had to make do with what's there in ladder matches. If Mark Henry or Great Khali or, indeed, Big Show have wanted to win ladder matches, they've had to try and shimmy up the same ladders made of tin foil and toothpicks as everyone else.

Because Andre is on loan to WCW from the WWF. It is a safe deduction to make that the ladders would be fit to task for both competitors (after all Punk's a WWe guy too) because to not do so; A) Sets them up for being sued if Andre broke something; B) The ladder buckling would make them look like a cowboy operation unable to fulfill the simple function of providing adequate equipment - something that'd really look good in a match featuring two of your rival promotion's guys.

 

[Uncle Sam]

That's because it's unsafe for them to try and climb something that doesn't support their weight.

So you admit there's a history of big men gingerly climbing ladders that barely support their weight. Good.

Your second point is silly; of course the WWE [or WCW in this case] would provide reinforced ladders to ensure the safety of their performers.

But they've never done that. That's baseless conjecture. There's no precedence for that.

In fact, I'm sure WWE has been doing this on a regular basis whenever they have matches with spots that require multiple superstars to be on a ladder at the same time.

Which is why the ladders never look any different, why they bend and twist and fall over all the same and why wrestlers can pull them apart to use as stilts.

I think you're grasping at straws if you're trying to make an argument for CM Punk by suggesting that WCW provide faulty equipment for Andre to use.

Not faulty equipment; the equipment that's been used in every ladder match ever. I'm suggesting a situation with evidence behind it and with precedence. You've magicked this idea that WCW for the first time in history supplies mysteriously reinforced ladders out of thin air.

The entire idea is ludicrous and I'm surprised I have to explain why.

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

Wow, 100 posts before the poll is even open huh? Honestly I've tried to be objective ever since this thread was made. I've basically read just about every post and nobody has really convinced me why I should vote for whoever they are representing. The people supporting Andre are still doing the exact same thing that didn't help Bret win last round and that is basically demean and try to humiliate any person who has a opinion that's not theirs. Some Punk supporters are also blind marks but there are some who are doing a decent job debating for him. This entire thread has kind of turned into a clusterfuck/witch hunt to try to get Punk out of this tourney. Unless that changes I'm going with the man I fought for last round CM Punk.

 

[cult_of_icecream_bar]

If the simple logic is that andre in his prime would dismantle punk bad enough to not being able to continue the match,then give the title to him. Because by that logic,no one should be able to beat andre.Question yourself,making this even if the rock or stone cold or even cena went up against andre in this type of match none of them would go over him by that logic.

 

[Bernkastel]

So you admit there's a history of big men gingerly climbing ladders that barely support their weight. Good.

If the ladder doesn't support the weight, then the WWE is going to have it enforced pre match.

But they've never done that. That's baseless conjecture. There's no precedence for that.

LOL what? Are familiar with what a lawsuit is Sam? WWE reinforces all thier eqiupment to prevent anyone from getting hurt. WCW would have done the same thing. That's not conjecture, it's protocall.

Which is why the ladders never look any different, why they bend and twist and fall over all the same and why wrestlers can pull them apart to use as stilts.

16 foot standard issue aluminum ladder

16 foot standard reinforced steel ladder

Notice how both ladders, if painted, would look practically indentical? Anyone able to lift 150 lbs or more would be able to easily handle either.

Not faulty equipment; the equipment that's been used in every ladder match ever. I'm suggesting a situation with evidence behind it and with precedence. You've magicked this idea that WCW for the first time in history supplies mysteriously reinforced ladders out of thin air.

The entire idea is ludicrous and I'm surprised I have to explain why.

You probably won't find any injuries related to faulty equipment related to ladders because the WWE [and WCW] takes care of their performers. To suggest otherwise is ******ed.

So now your logic for why CM Punk would win is because Andre would be too heavy to climb a standard ladder, and WCW would be to cheap to reinforce the ladders before the match. Gotcha.

 

[Gelgarin]

The company is requiring these men to hit one another with heavy metal objects and attempt to throw one another from a great height. At that point safe workplace requirements are rather out of the window do you not think?

 

[Bernkastel]

The company is requiring these men to hit one another with heavy metal objects and attempt to throw one another from a great height. At that point safe workplace requirements are rather out of the window do you not think?

But to say that they aren't going to do everything that they can to make that environment as safe as possible would be a moronic thing to say.

For example take this spot

[youtube]Nw-FVHGCthA[/youtube]

Clearly that was a wooden structure painted to look like a ladder. It would be CZW levels of stupidity to do that spot with a metal ladder. If one of the performers was too heavy to safely climb an aluminum ladder, their company would use reinforced ladders instead. Not a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Shocky]

I know Punk has an outstanding record in ladder matches, but what the hell is he going to do to keep Andre down? I'm still waiting. Punk has next to nothing in his arsenal that would suggest he could keep Andre down long enough to climb a ladder. Andre could literally knock Punk out, and take all day to climb to the top of whatever he brings out to the ring to win this match.

Punk did draw the one match that I am willing to listen to his side. I don't think this is the slam dunk victory Andre supporters think it should be for their guy. This match could easily see Punk do the "Andre tied in the rope spot," (something Heenan said Andre loved to do), and Punk roll on into the next round.

This match could go either way, but Punk shouldn't win automatically because he's the quicker guy in the match. Convince me he has the offense to keep Andre down.

 

[Uncle Sam]

You probably won't find any injuries related to faulty equipment related to ladders because the WWE [and WCW] takes care of their performers. To suggest otherwise is ******ed.

I think, like our dear Gelgarin pointed out, that you're confusing John Laurinaitis' Patented Safe Work Environment (endorsed by David Otunga, Ace Attorney) with actual professional wrestling. You've hodge-podged kayfabe and reality together to an odd degree. Hunner, we're girls. Something could happen.

Ladder matches are unsafe. Ladders bend and snap and fall over. That's how it is, and how it's always been - even when 400 pound plus competitors have been in the match and struggled to climb the ladders. When Big Show grabbed at the rung of a ladder and it came away in his hands, he didn't reach for his cell phone and get onto Injury Lawyers 4 U.

I think there are many legitimate arguments for Andre. He's a better wrestler, he's deceptively agile, he had a very dominant period, he's great at absorbing damage; I wouldn't say that I think he should defeat CM Punk in a TLC match on the back of them, but I see where they're coming from. I wouldn't count this odd idea that, for the first time in wrestling history, WCW is going to provide special Andre-friendly reinforced ladders among them.

As Coco's likely raring to point out, I've afforded this idea more time and post count than is dignified. I'll refasten my tie, roll down my sleeves, and be on my way.

 

[The Brain]

I'm so sorry, I'll get to Slyfox's wall of text tomorrow, but jesus christ!

What the hell? You're going to waste your Saturday with friends of family or whatever you're doing instead of supporting your guy in an online fantasy wrestling tournament? Glad to see where your priorities are. No dedication at all

Wow, 100 posts before the poll is even open huh? Honestly I've tried to be objective ever since this thread was made. I've basically read just about every post and nobody has really convinced me why I should vote for whoever they are representing. The people supporting Andre are still doing the exact same thing that didn't help Bret win last round and that is basically demean and try to humiliate any person who has a opinion that's not theirs. Some Punk supporters are also blind marks but there are some who are doing a decent job debating for him. This entire thread has kind of turned into a clusterfuck/witch hunt to try to get Punk out of this tourney. Unless that changes I'm going with the man I fought for last round CM Punk.

This is your first tournament right? This is the way it always goes. People make fun of each other and usually over value their guy while underrating the opponent. It's all in good fun. Once the tournament is over it's all forgotten. Until the next year that is when we all throw prior year's ridiculous arguments in each other's faces.

CALIBER OF OPPONENT DOES NOT DETRACT FROM WINNING RECORDS

I can't believe you still think this is a good argument. Too bad Brodus Clay isn't in this tournament. He would steamroll Punk. After all he's undefeated since returning and has beaten JTG, Heath Slater, and Curt Hawkins. Give him the belt already.

PS. One interesting (though probably massively ignorable factor) is that this match is PRIME VS PRIME and to quote from a recent CM punk inteview "My prime? I havent reached my prime yet... I'm already the best wrestler in the world and i'm nowhere near my prime"... If he can win MITB at midcard level (declared earlier), imaging him in his prime?

I agree that Punk probably hasn't reached his prime yet. That's part of the reason he shouldn't beat Andre. How can we allow someone who hasn't peaked to beat a legend like Andre? Maybe in the 2014 or 2015 tournament. Not now.

 

[cult_of_icecream_bar]

Punk wins.How i'll tell ya.He runs away as soon as the bell rings goes underneath the ring and hides. If andre's dumb enough to chase him under the ring,he gets out the opposite site after andre's stuck under the ring,climbs the ladder and wins. But that wont happen.Another thing he can do is let andre climb the ladder,hit the ladder with another one and if it doesnt fall run away.

 

[Bernkastel]

I think, like our dear Gelgarin pointed out, that you're confusing John Laurinaitis' Patented Safe Work Environment (endorsed by David Otunga, Ace Attorney) with actual professional wrestling. You've hodge-podged kayfabe and reality together to an odd degree. Hunner, we're girls. Something could happen.

Ladder matches are unsafe. Ladders bend and snap and fall over. That's how it is, and how it's always been - even when 400 pound plus competitors have been in the match and struggled to climb the ladders. When Big Show grabbed at the rung of a ladder and it came away in his hands, he didn't reach for his cell phone and get onto Injury Lawyers 4 U.

I think there are many legitimate arguments for Andre. He's a better wrestler, he's deceptively agile, he had a very dominant period, he's great at absorbing damage; I wouldn't say that I think he should defeat CM Punk in a TLC match on the back of them, but I see where they're coming from. I wouldn't count this odd idea that, for the first time in wrestling history, WCW is going to provide special Andre-friendly reinforced ladders among them.

As Coco's likely raring to point out, I've afforded this idea more time and post count than is dignified. I'll refasten my tie, roll down my sleeves, and be on my way.

IC provided this video earlier...

[youtube]0JAIPuqP6aE&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

There are several points in that match where the weight of the superstars on the ladder would have exceeded the specifications for an aluminum ladder. Those ladders would have needed to have been steel reinforced, and would have held Andre's weight.

If WWE provided reinforced ladders when needed, then why wouldn't WCW?

Also the spots with Big Show were works to hype up his size and strength going into the match. They did not do that with Mark Henry when he participated in the MITB match, but I don't recall him even getting on a ladder once.

 

[Uncle Sam]

IC provided this video earlier...

[youtube]0JAIPuqP6aE&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

There are several points in that match where the weight of the superstars on the ladder would have exceeded the specifications for an aluminum ladder. Those ladders would have needed to have been steel reinforced, and would have held Andre's weight.

If WWE provided reinforced ladders when needed, then why wouldn't WCW?

Also the spots with Big Show were works to hype up his size and strength going into the match. They did not do that with Mark Henry when he participated in the MITB match, but I don't recall him even getting on a ladder once.

See, now I think that our entire disagreement has sprouted from miscommunication and misunderstanding, which makes me feel less dignified than I already did.

My point was never that, I dunno, Jimmy the intern would get the ladders from a local garage sale and Andre would botch a spot after accidentally putting his foot through a rung, meaning CM Punk (breaking kayfabe?) would seize his opportunity and win the match. My point was that, in kayfabe, by the rules under which this tournament is conducted, ladders are brittle and unstable. I mean, they are in reality too, but that wasn't my point.

I know The Big Show is, as the name suggests, a big, fat, strong bastard, but I was never under the impression that he can actually pull rungs off a ladder as if they were tissue paper. That was a work. However, professional wrestling is one big work. By the same principle that Rey Mysterio can break Cody Rhodes' nose with a 619, a big man struggles with wrestling's piece of shit ladders.

I know that the ladder Sheamus threw Sin Cara through wasn't solid steel - it was spackle and cornflakes probably - but I also know that a tombstone piledriver doesn't actually knock people unconscious. Yet for the purposes of this tournament, The Undertaker's considered lethal.

Now, onto the wholly more worthwhile discussion of CM Punk's exceptional ladder match record and Andre's ring dominance.

 

[justinsayne]

I'm so sorry, I'll get to Slyfox's wall of text tomorrow, but jesus christ!

He's not that fucking tall!

He's was billed 4 inches taller than Kane, and Kane most definitely needs to climb a ladder to reach the briefcase.

Who do you think is hanging up this briefcase? Danny Devito?

And you actually called my arguments ******ed.

Yeah, he wouldn't need a ladder cause he could just toss the steel steps in the ring, & just stand on those, which could easily support his weight, then just use all of his 7'5" height & 87" reach to reach up a grab the briefcase or whatever down. Perhaps you should have read my entire fucking post, before posting your ******ed response.

 

[thatotherguy]

To me this is like Punk vs. Hart. In which I voted Hart. Which doesn't bode well for Andre. But, oh well.

I should have put this in the Punk vs. Hart thread, but here goes.

Punk vs. Andre the Giant in a singles match in their respective primes. Andre wins. Why? Because in his prime Andre the Giant was unbeatable, and CM Punk is vulnerable. Or from a kayfabe perspective, Andre the Giant is just to big for CM Punk right now.

Punk vs. Andre the Giant in a TLC match. The stipulation favors CM Punk. More experience, and a better build for ladder matches. That being said...it doesn't favor Punk enough.

Look, I honestly don't think that Punk has hit his prime yet, and that there are better things to be heard from the man. But right now, CM Punk is as good as he's ever been. And I cannot conceive of CM Punk beating Andre the Giant in any contest where you have to beat your opponent up to achieve some goal as he is today. Sorry Punk. But you're not winning this one. Maybe next year you'll get a thirty yard dash with Andre.

 

[nightmare]

All these posts are filled with gems. This is what Im hearing though:



Andre is tall and wouldnt need a ladder.

-Well thats just ******ed and makes no sense. He is not tall enough on his tippy toes, wearing thick boots and using one of those toy claws that grab stuff for fat people when they are too lazy to move. He needs the ladder.



Andre is too big for the ladder to support him:

-Well thats not smart either because history has shown us it can. The ladder would not crumble under his weight.
Plus even if Andre borrowed Shows ladder, it wouldnt guarantee him a win. Show lost his MITB match with that ladder.


Punk couldnt knock Andre off the Ladder:

-Why is that? Andre is huge. Ok. A heavy guy on top of a ladder isnt that hard to knock off. It puts all the weight at the top which is not very stable. Show has been pushed off the ladder and went splat on the outside. A fall like that will give Punk plenty of time to climb for the case. He doesnt have to lift the ladder with Andre on it, just has to topple the ladder over which isnt that hard. History has shown us that can happen (Henry, Show, Kane, etc.) All are roughly the same size as Andre and all have been toppled off the ladder. Here is what would happen. Punk has choices.


A- Punk smacks the crap out of Andre with a chair a few times and he falls down. Andre goes boom.


B- Andre tosses Punk to the outside and goes for the ladder. He starts climbing and Punk hits a springboard dropkick to topple the ladder....Andre goes boom.


C- Andre climbs the ladder and Punk gets smart. He hits the weak point of the ladder (you know that thin piece of metal across the middle that 'locks' the ladder in place?) with a stiff kick or chair shot. It breaks and Punk can easily pull on the opposite side Andre is on or hit a low kick to that side. Ladder is now too unstable for Andre to climb. Andre goes boom.



Options galore for a smart wrestler like Punk. He will do what he can to stay away from Andre because he knows the man is stronger. If he does get caught, Punk has no problem playing dirty. A swift kick to the nuts or eye gouge will effectively give Punk room to move. Even the almighty Hulk Hogan isnt immune to a kick to the dick or rake of the eyes.


Sure Andre can climb the ladder. Not that hard. What makes it harder is having a guy trying to stop you. Punk isnt stupid and will work the legs with anything that isnt nailed down. His kicks wont knock Andre down but they will have effect. Punk will realize that when Andre swats at him or grabs him. So what does Punk do? Grab a chair and swing low. Even if Andre hits a big move and Punk goes down, his legs would have been damaged. Damaged legs on a bigger opponent makes them slow to walk let alone climb. That gives Punk a few extra seconds to recover then attack.




Now Punk will take a beating. This wont be easy at all. Andre is dangerous enough without weapons. Punk will try to stay away, but at least a shot or 2 will connect. Thats bad, but is it enough? I dont think so. Punk has way more experience in this type of match. One MITB win featured Henry and Kane, yet Punk still took his lumps and found a way to win.


The GTS and Vice are out. Not a factor at all. This is something Punk will have to win using his speed and wits- and alot of chair shots. Andre might have a hard head, but his legs arent made of steel. They will bruise and buckle. Plus, Andre gets toppled off that ladder, he isnt getting up that easily giving Punk plenty of time to get the win.



Punk wins.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Andre is so big he wouldn't even have to climb the ladder, just threaten the guy to lower it to his height and he would win.

Also its kind of hard for Punk to win after Andre rips him in half like a phone book. Big Show got a reinforced ladder to hold him up so I don't see why Andre couldn't do the same. This is prime time Andre and he was much more agile back in his prime than people give him credit for. I just don't see anything Punk can do to Andre that would even for a second make you think that Punk could keep Andre down long enough to climb the ladder, not to mention set it up beforehand. Punk couldn't keep Andre down for a 3 count let alone long enough to climb the ladder and get the belt.

Unless some force of nature happens where Andre gets hit by a lightning bolt there is no freaking way he would lose this match.

Andre all the way.

 

[dakikko049]

Punk has been really good as of late at finding ways of defeating the odds in a non-superman way using wit. Andre's big but Punk has an awesome record in ladder matches, and is a terrific wrestler.

My vote is for CM Punk

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

1. Undertaker weighs about 50 or 60 pounds more than Edge. Andre is twice as big as Punk is. Add on to the fact that there will be a reinforced ladder for Andre, I don't see how Punk is going to tip that ladder over.

2. Who says Andre is going to take a big bump? I'm not.

Only Vince McMahon. TLC matches were never booked in Andre's prime, they were booked as early as 2000 and back and ever since then huge bumps were all the rage, ask Shane, his only son.

Andre can knock the fuck of Punk long enough so that he can take all the sweet time he wants. After all, we're talking about climbing a ladder. We're not talking about parkour.

So long as Punk gives him that luxury, which he, of course, wont. You realize this isn't an interview, it's a wrestling match. The only way this happens is if Punk allows it to, he's got the differential in speed to make sure it doesn't.

Undisclosed location, the day before the match...

Vince: Hey Andre, are you sure you know what you're getting into? This Punk guy is real good. He is 2-0 in TLC matches and you've never been in one.

Andre: Pfft. I've taken a look at this Punk guy and he will not be a challenge to me. I can beat him drunk and I heard he doesn't drink. What a sissy. He will need a drink after what I will do to him.

Vince: I don't know if the ladder can hold your weight, Andre. Punk can and will use anything to his advantage. He will take your knees out with a chair and put you through a table. I hope you're not afraid of heights.

Andre takes a table and throws it up at the briefcase which falls down.

Andre: What do you know? It fell down and I didn't have to climb no stinking ladder. Now get me the biggest ladder you can find so I can take it and bash Punk to death with it. And get me some beer for the victory party.

Vince: May god have mercy on Punk's soul.

Vince: Punk, I know you embarrassed me on live television, something along the lines of 'I'll kick you in the nuts, and you'll like it'. I'd like to give you a chance to redeem yourself. You've got Andre The Giant, a guy who's never even been in so much as a ladder match tonight.

Punk: What's the catch?

Vince: Well he's really big, and quite slow. That should make things difficult for you. Shame you aren't faster than him and can't avoid his attacks and then use your experience in hardcore matches to use weapons against him and your knowledge of lethal Muay Thai strikes also to hurt him when he's down.

Punk: But it's a ladder match, I can use all of those things.

Vince: Oh. Good luck then.

Climb a ladder and get a briefcase. That's real alien.

Go back 25 years and then preach that concept to the guys,. It's going to be a fantastical head-scratching affair.

1-0. I'm not counting multi-man matches.

Good for you. I am because the chance of winning those matches is muchly depleted but whatevs, if that's prerogative.

Irrelevant. Punk isn't fighting seven men. He's fighting one man possibility with the strength of seven men.

Well thanks for offering me that one. he IS only fighting one guy. If seven men simultaneously were unable to stop him from climbing a ladder, it doesn't seem likely one slow man will.

This isn't going to take 60 minutes. It may take 60 minutes for the paramedics to resuscitate Punk after the match.

#Lol@jokeyconjecture. But anyway, to quote Roddy Piper 'The bigger they are, the harder they fall, but they don't fall so often' This is especially true in wrestling. If Andre falls, it's going to be harder for him to get up and recover than Punk.

I'm voting Andre because he's the better overall wrestler.[/QUOTE]

He was a better draw because he lived in a time that wasn't filled with Big Show's. That's as much as I can honestly give him.

This is going to be a harsh and concise tirade but you'll have a chance to lambaste me after anyway. Do you know exactly what was special about Andre The Giant? He had gigantism. That's it. Aside from that he was just a french guy. He benefited from the fact that guys like him weren't patrolling the territories at the time. The biggest guys to oppose him like Ernie Ladd or John Studd weren't quite as big as him, and that's what gave him the edge. That's what made him a draw. He was big. Well done. Pat on the back Rarely has someone benefited so prolifically from their natural assets the way in which he managed to do for his career.

He was an average worker, he was an average wrestler in general and he certainly didn't make a career of his abilities, that's for certain.

I'm sure people probably hate me for spilling the truth here, but Punk IS special. He comes from a time where every fucking word that drops from your mouth is investigated through a microscope. You can't say a damn word on twitter without having the thought that WWE might make you revoke it 10 minutes later. You get told what to say, how to say it and what to basically do on screen unless the office has supreme confidence in your speaking and character ability. There's only two guys I think that the backstage trusts to freelance on the live show, and that's Cena and Punk. Everyone else is scripted word for word.

Punk never asked for the ball, he never worked up his whole career to it, he worked his career to have one in the WWE. The ball was ever handcrafted, no matter what you believe, to fit in the palm of his hand the way it was for John Cena, because let's face it, CM Punk is a self made man, and John Cena, whether he's great or not being a completely other issue, was given the backing of everybody from day one. Cena came in feuding with Kurt Angle, Brock Lenar and The Undertaker. Punk came in to ECW, his first promo being with Shannon Moore of all people. And yet he's traveled from there to here. As uncle Cyrus would say, 'That my friends, is a miracle'. He's built himself up from nothing and for that you can brand him as nothing else BUT special.

Punk demanded respect and the ability to do what he knew he could, whether it be talking from the heart or wrestling a 20 minute match because he knew people would care. And here we are, sufficiently long after the shoot incident of last year that Punk's lost all momentum he gained from it. And people still chant 'CM Punk' when he comes out. His popularity is undeniable. It's that, amongst other things, which brought a semi-retired Chris Jericho out of retirement to feud with him, it's that very same potential and ability. It's the same ability which made Mick Foley say 'I've never been jealous of anyone in pro wrestling, but I'm jealous of the character of CM Punk right now'

Andre had the backing in a different era. In the world CM Punk is trying to survive in, he's doing an amazing job and is one of the all time greats already for what he's managed to accomplish. He does have the advantage in this match because of his record but... Punk would beat Andre here. If nothing else, he deserves to.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Only Vince McMahon. TLC matches were never booked in Andre's prime, they were booked as early as 2000 and back and ever since then huge bumps were all the rage, ask Shane, his only son.



So long as Punk gives him that luxury, which he, of course, wont. You realize this isn't an interview, it's a wrestling match. The only way this happens is if Punk allows it to, he's got the differential in speed to make sure it doesn't.



Vince: Punk, I know you embarrassed me on live television, something along the lines of 'I'll kick you in the nuts, and you'll like it'. I'd like to give you a chance to redeem yourself. You've got Andre The Giant, a guy who's never even been in so much as a ladder match tonight.

Punk: What's the catch?

Vince: Well he's really big, and quite slow. That should make things difficult for you. Shame you aren't faster than him and can't avoid his attacks and then use your experience in hardcore matches to use weapons against him and your knowledge of lethal Muay Thai strikes also to hurt him when he's down.

Punk: But it's a ladder match, I can use all of those things.

Vince: Oh. Good luck then.



Go back 25 years and then preach that concept to the guys,. It's going to be a fantastical head-scratching affair.



Good for you. I am because the chance of winning those matches is muchly depleted but whatevs, if that's prerogative.



Well thanks for offering me that one. he IS only fighting one guy. If seven men simultaneously were unable to stop him from climbing a ladder, it doesn't seem likely one slow man will.



#Lol@jokeyconjecture. But anyway, to quote Roddy Piper 'The bigger they are, the harder they fall, but they don't fall so often' This is especially true in wrestling. If Andre falls, it's going to be harder for him to get up and recover than Punk.

I'm voting Andre because he's the better overall wrestler.

He was a better draw because he lived in a time that wasn't filled with Big Show's. That's as much as I can honestly give him.

This is going to be a harsh and concise tirade but you'll have a chance to lambaste me after anyway. Do you know exactly what was special about Andre The Giant? He had gigantism. That's it. Aside from that he was just a french guy. He benefited from the fact that guys like him weren't patrolling the territories at the time. The biggest guys to oppose him like Ernie Ladd or John Studd weren't quite as big as him, and that's what gave him the edge. That's what made him a draw. He was big. Well done. Pat on the back Rarely has someone benefited so prolifically from their natural assets the way in which he managed to do for his career.

He was an average worker, he was an average wrestler in general and he certainly didn't make a career of his abilities, that's for certain.

I'm sure people probably hate me for spilling the truth here, but Punk IS special. He comes from a time where every fucking word that drops from your mouth is investigated through a microscope. You can't say a damn word on twitter without having the thought that WWE might make you revoke it 10 minutes later. You get told what to say, how to say it and what to basically do on screen unless the office has supreme confidence in your speaking and character ability. There's only two guys I think that the backstage trusts to freelance on the live show, and that's Cena and Punk. Everyone else is scripted word for word.

Punk never asked for the ball, he never worked up his whole career to it, he worked his career to have one in the WWE. The ball was ever handcrafted, no matter what you believe, to fit in the palm of his hand the way it was for John Cena, because let's face it, CM Punk is a self made man, and John Cena, whether he's great or not being a completely other issue, was given the backing of everybody from day one. Cena came in feuding with Kurt Angle, Brock Lenar and The Undertaker. Punk came in to ECW, his first promo being with Shannon Moore of all people. And yet he's traveled from there to here. As uncle Cyrus would say, 'That my friends, is a miracle'. He's built himself up from nothing and for that you can brand him as nothing else BUT special.

Punk demanded respect and the ability to do what he knew he could, whether it be talking from the heart or wrestling a 20 minute match because he knew people would care. And here we are, sufficiently long after the shoot incident of last year that Punk's lost all momentum he gained from it. And people still chant 'CM Punk' when he comes out. His popularity is undeniable. It's that, amongst other things, which brought a semi-retired Chris Jericho out of retirement to feud with him, it's that very same potential and ability. It's the same ability which made Mick Foley say 'I've never been jealous of anyone in pro wrestling, but I'm jealous of the character of CM Punk right now'

Andre had the backing in a different era. In the world CM Punk is trying to survive in, he's doing an amazing job and is one of the all time greats already for what he's managed to accomplish. He does have the advantage in this match because of his record but... Punk would beat Andre here. If nothing else, he deserves to.

The ladder match goes back 40 years. So you're really going to me that the wrestlers of the 70's and 80's would be dumbfounded when they would be told to climb a ladder and grab a briefcase?

Let's address your soliloquy on how Punk was the self made man and how Cena had everything handed to him and all that rhetoric you spewed out. I'm going to compare Cena and Punk's first three years in the WWE and let's see how they did.

Punk: ECW Champion, 2-time MITB winner, IC Champion, Tag Team Champion, and 2-time World Champion

Cena: U.S. Champion, WWE Champion

Seems to me like Punk accomplished a lot early in his career way more than Cena did. You referenced that Cena had the benefit of working with Lesnar, Angle, and Benoit in 2003. Well, genius, fast forward to 2004. Who was he working with? Booker T, Rene Dupree, Big Show, and Carlito. The cream of the crop they surely are and Cena still got over. Punk still can't even be the man when he's the WWE Champion and I'm still waiting for that day to come.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

I didn't bother to quote all of the comments and quips Sly made, because it's pointless, and too fucking confusing to read for someone who just tuned in. Most of the point were attempts at discrediting Punk rather than doing anything to build up Andre, which I feel shows little confidence in the fact Andre could win this match. Everyone is just banking on Punk losing.

So I have two parts of Sly's argument that I feel show pretty much where this match is at. Everyone put on your obstinacy goggles!

But no, you're talking about 2 fucking matches. And you're comparing it to a record of 0-0. Seriously, do you really consider THIS to be your best argument?

Just so we're clear, we've established it's 3-0....

[youtube]qnOLZ8aAQ9o[/youtube]

Not my best, but admit. It's a pretty good argument. Anyone with a winning record in a match is going to be favoured. As much as you want to deny that, it's true. In the 5 1v1 TLC matches there have been, 4 out of 5 were one by either the guy with more experience in TLC/Ladder matches, or they were won by CM Punk, a prodigy at the match up.

Nowhere else in the world would the person who has never been in the match get the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not saying Andre gets a free ride or setting high standards for Punk. I'm saying this entire line of your argument is absolutely ridiculous, because Punk didn't face Andre in a TLC match, and you have no proof Andre would not have been just as dominant in TLC matches as he was in every other type of match.

And you have no proof that he would have been. But we do have proof that Punk is dominant. Proof vs No Proof. It favours Punk. Otherwise what's to stop us calling Sho Funaki a Steel Cage wunderkind? I don't understand how you can call me ridiculous and then go on to pull something out of your ass like that.

You know Andre is bigger. You know Andre is better. You know Andre has the overall much better record. You know there is not one shred of evidence that Punk has ANY advantage over Andre. So you're resorting to TWO matches, against opponents who are nowhere near Andre's caliber to try and be convincing.

Here. Here is the point where you say that because Hero, The Miz, Hardy or Del Rio weren't as good as Andre the Giant, the wins are unconvincing and invalidated.

But if you're going to try and use 2 wins against opponents no where near Andre's caliber, then I'm going to use Andre's far better record to show that Andre still comes out on top.

Do it then. Answer this question. Answer it straight up in relation to the previous point.

Who did he beat, clean, that was impressive? Why does he have the better record?

I remember him getting pinned at Mania III. I routinely remember Ultimate Warrior packing his shit in.

The only argument I can see you shooting off is that he beat a pre-Hulkamania Hogan at Shea Stadium.

Pretty much the equivalent of pinning 2004 Rapper John Cena clean.

CM Punk pinned him 3 times during his peak.

Answer the question to how his wins are that much more impressive. Who did he beat that was so much more impressive?

But if you're going to try and use 2 wins against opponents no where near Andre's caliber, then I'm going to use Andre's far better record to show that Andre still comes out on top.

So you're resorting to TWO matches, against opponents who are nowhere near Andre's caliber to try and be convincing.

Because calibre of opponent is obviously important to you.

And also, if you mention The Main Event where he won with a two-count, then you can trade Summerslam 2011 for it. It's still 2-0 for pins on the biggest wrestler of the time period. Less impressive.

 

[JWGunslinger]

You can dissect this match as much as you want and pick out little thing like Andre is bigger and could do/withstand more damage with the weapons in the match and yaddy yaddy yadda, but this match belongs to CM Punk. The guy is synonymous with TLC, he's been that since his time in ECW and he still is here and now today. He knows how to function in an extreme environment and you could say that most of the fame he has reached came from him climbing ladders and grabbing briefcases & belts. Andre is a beast, you cant ever take that away from him and he could find a way to win this match but Punk's speed, agility and experience get it done in this one.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You can dissect this match as much as you want and pick out little thing like Andre is bigger and could do/withstand more damage with the weapons in the match and yaddy yaddy yadda, but this match belongs to CM Punk. The guy is synonymous with TLC, he's been that since his time in ECW and he still is here and now today. He knows how to function in an extreme environment and you could say that most of the fame he has reached came from him climbing ladders and grabbing briefcases & belts. Andre is a beast, you cant ever take that away from him and he could find a way to win this match but Punk's speed, agility and experience get it done in this one.

So a guy who has only been in two TLC matches is now synonymous with the match? Gee, I thought that honor would have gone to someone like Edge who has been in more of them than any other wrestler. But what do I know?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

You can dissect this match as much as you want and pick out little thing like Andre is bigger and could do/withstand more damage with the weapons in the match and yaddy yaddy yadda,

Don't forget other little things like stronger and better. In that case don't forget about Andre being a lot bigger and a lot stronger and a lot better.

but this match belongs to CM Punk. The guy is synonymous with TLC, he's been that since his time in ECW and he still is here and now today.

Edge, Christian, the Dudleys and the Hardys may argue otherwise.

I love how folks are making Punk's record in TLC and Ladder matches out to be UT's streak or Sammartino's championship run. Having a decent record in these type of matches helps sell tickets and gives Tony Schiavone something to talk about to make it seem like Punk has a chance but in the end it's all hype.

He knows how to function in an extreme environment and you could say that most of the fame he has reached came from him climbing ladders and grabbing briefcases & belts.

His straight edge life style, getting permission to shoot on the company, a great storyline about leaving he company with the belt and getting put over by the biggest current name in the business didn't hurt either.

Andre is a beast, you cant ever take that away from him and he could find a way to win this match but Punk's speed, agility and experience get it done in this one.

I love the concept that a TLC match is such a complicated match that experience is such a necessity. That Andre some how would not and could not prepare what little preparation it takes to learn how to unfold a chair or put someone through a table or set up a ladder.

Btw, Punk just Tweeted that he would never stand a chance in a TLC match with Andre in his prime.






OK, just kidding about that last part but I am sure you all believed it.