WCW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (2) Andre The Giant vs. (11) CM Punk

[cult_of_icecream_bar]

Did andre kill anyone in his prime?I don't think so.So why are people saying andre would kill punk and win the match.

 

[JWGunslinger]

So a guy who has only been in two TLC matches is now synonymous with the match? Gee, I thought that honor would have gone to someone like Edge who has been in more of them than any other wrestler. But what do I know?

My bad on that, I meant to say synonymous with that style of match. And yes ofcourse Edge is the first person I would think of in that aspect too but Punk has become known for them as well. My point is that Punk is a hardcore superstar, it's his kind of match and he has the edge in it. I think when Punk took the feud with Hardy and the ladder matches that made him worthy of mention when it comes to a similar match like TLC, but what do I know right? I'm sure Andre would destroy him in every way possible and it's a joke to think punk would win because he's been there before.

 

[Rulk25]

Yes but you also forget one simple thing...the old bigger they are harder they fall argument...All Punk has to do is outsmart Andre...and lets face Andre was never the brightest crayon in the box.
Punk plays possum at one point. Lets Andre go set up a ladder Punk sneaks around while Andre goes up the ladder (and even you have to admit he will not be zip fast up that ladder. Wait till Andre is halfway up that ladder and then bam jump onto the top dropkick the ladder and BOOM he will drop so hard and so fast he might punch a hole in teh ring...even if he dont it will be the hardest slam he has ever taken and that will give Punk the time to easily climb the ladder and win.....A perfectly logical strategy to win for a thinking mans wrestler like Punk (it is exactly the strategy I think a Flair or an Edge would use as well)

Good.


You seem to be forgetting Andre can use weapons as well. And since Andre is much bigger and stronger, it's much easier for him to wield the heavy weapons like a ladder or a table, and it's going to hurt MUCH more than when Punk hits Andre. Furthermore, if Punk tried to ram Andre with a ladder, Andre would just grab it and rip it out of his hands since, like I said, he's so much stronger than Punk

If you agree the ladder plays no part in the match, there's simply no way you can say weapons work to Punk's advantage. Andre has the longer reach, Andre is much stronger, Andre is much bigger (making it more difficult for Punk to put him through a table) and Andre doesn't have to cover nearly as much distance on the ladder.

There is no way I'd see Andre losing this match to Punk.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

So how exactly is Punk gonna move the ladder so much that Andre falls when the guy is 450 lbs? Not to mention Andre would probably be using a re-enforced ladder to get the job done as its not hard to figure out a regular ladder probably wouldn't be able to hold such a big guy like Andre. If Andre's on that ladder good fucking luck for Punk to actually be able to drop kick a re-enforced ladder with a 450 lb man on it and make it fall.

There is no way Punk can win this match, it just can't happen. I don't care how much experience, strategy and agility the guy has Andre is simply too big, too strong, and is simply too much better than Punk for him to win. Do you really think a 218lb man can keep a 450lb man down long enough to climb up a ladder and retrieve the briefcase? Good luck with that.

 

[Benson]

So how exactly is Punk gonna move the ladder so much that Andre falls when the guy is 450 lbs?

Simple physics. Put 450 pounds on the top of a ladder and the ladder become top heavy. Any slightest movement at the bottom of the ladder would cause it to fall.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Simple physics. Put 450 pounds on the top of a ladder and the ladder become top heavy. Any slightest movement at the bottom of the ladder would cause it to fall.

First off, I don't think Andre would need to go to the top of the ladder to retrieve the briefcase, the guy could probably dunk a basketball without jumping.

Secondly, The Big Show had difficulty moving that re-enforced ladder around. Punk doesn't have the force in order to move that ladder on his own and having a 7'4" monster half way up the ladder isn't gonna help him much either. The ladder isn't a regular ladder, it will most certainly be a monster ladder that weighs at least a few hundred pounds.

 

[Bernkastel]

So how exactly is Punk gonna move the ladder so much that Andre falls when the guy is 450 lbs? Not to mention Andre would probably be using a re-enforced ladder to get the job done as its not hard to figure out a regular ladder probably wouldn't be able to hold such a big guy like Andre. If Andre's on that ladder good fucking luck for Punk to actually be able to drop kick a re-enforced ladder with a 450 lb man on it and make it fall.

There is no way Punk can win this match, it just can't happen. I don't care how much experience, strategy and agility the guy has Andre is simply too big, too strong, and is simply too much better than Punk for him to win. Do you really think a 218lb man can keep a 450lb man down long enough to climb up a ladder and retrieve the briefcase? Good luck with that.

Sense... this makes plenty.

I can see Punk maybe knocking Andre off the ladder if he comes off the top rope, but there's no way Andre doesn't see that coming from a mile away. I can't think of any plausible way for Punk to keep Andre down long enough to climb a ladder.

Punk would have to all but kill himself in some big insane spot on the outside ala Jeff Hardy in order to take Andre out. But then he'd have to drag his body back into the ring AND THEN climb the ladder before Andre recovers again.

I just don't see how Punk could win this.

 

[Benson]

First off, I don't think Andre would need to go to the top of the ladder to retrieve the briefcase, the guy could probably dunk a basketball without jumping.

Secondly, The Big Show had difficulty moving that re-enforced ladder around. Punk doesn't have the force in order to move that ladder on his own and having a 7'4" monster half way up the ladder isn't gonna help him much either. The ladder isn't a regular ladder, it will most certainly be a monster ladder that weighs at least a few hundred pounds.

You don't seem to get that the added weight at the top of the ladder HELPS Punk. Seriously, it's physics. When something is top heavy, the more weight is added at the top, makes the ladder easier to topple from the bottom. No lifting is required. Just Punk running into the ladder would be more than enough to topple it.

Secondly, Big Show and Khali are the same height (or very close) as Andre and neither of them came close to the belt without getting to at least the fourth rung of the ladder. So there's NO evidence that suggests someone of Andre's height could reach the prize without climbing. You guys want to claim that, but have yet to provide ANY evidence to support that claim.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

You don't seem to get that the added weight at the top of the ladder HELPS Punk. Seriously, it's physics. When something is top heavy, the more weight is added at the top, makes the ladder easier to topple from the bottom. No lifting is required. Just Punk running into the ladder would be more than enough to topple it.

Secondly, Big Show and Khali are the same height (or very close) as Andre and neither of them came close to the belt without getting to at least the fourth rung of the ladder. So there's NO evidence that suggests someone of Andre's height could reach the prize without climbing. You guys want to claim that, but have yet to provide ANY evidence to support that claim.

http://www.wrestleview.com/viewnews.php?id=1279500110

The Ladder Big Show used weighs over 300 POUNDS. Don't lecture me about your Physics 20 class, I'm very aware of the physics. Punk ain't moving a 10 pound ladder, he is moving a 300 pound ladder.

[YOUTUBE]wFMiZNK38No[/YOUTUBE]

Go to about the 10 minute mark, you will see that the briefcase is about 3 feet above this re-enforced ladder that Andre would most certainly have to use. Also, do you see anyone coming even close to being able to knock that thing over besides Andre, even if he was at the top.

Now lets do some math.

Andre is 7'4" tall, add lets say an extra 2 1/2" for a reach and we got about 9'10" reach but so we don't guess lets say Andre has a 9'6" foot reach.

The ladder is about 10 feet tall (going by how tall it is next to Big Show).

The briefcase is about 3 feet from the top so 13 feet.

So by doing the math lets see.

Andre would need to make it to at least 13' to reach the briefcase and on the ground his reach is about 9'6". Now by simple math Andre would have to go about 3'6" to touch the briefcase but to get a good grab on it lets say he would have to go at least 4'6" up the ladder to be able to get the briefcase.

So if the ladder is 10 feet tall, Andre wouldn't even have to go half way up the ladder in order to get the briefcase. So by simple math your top heavy argument has no merit whatsoever. For that to matter Andre would have to be probably at least 7 feet up the ladder for that argument to work on a 10 lb ladder, not to mention this ladder is over 300 lbs.

So by using simple physics, you are wrong.

 

[Benson]

40 year old Glen Jacobs tipped over the ladder, not by lifting, and while Kane is stronger than Punk, Kane didn't really exert too much effort in doing it. Punk running into it at full speed could very well knock over the ladder. Again, doesn't matter the total poundage, if the weight is not evenly distributed, it becomes unbalanced and can be easily toppled. In architecture, if a building holds too much weight at the top, even slight winds can cause it too sway or tumble. No different here.

And about the heigh difference, if Big Show didn't have to climb to the top of the ladder to reach the briefcase....why did he?

 

[Bernkastel]

http://www.wrestleview.com/viewnews.php?id=1279500110

The Ladder Big Show used weighs over 300 POUNDS. Don't lecture me about your Physics 20 class, I'm very aware of the physics. Punk ain't moving a 10 pound ladder, he is moving a 300 pound ladder.

[YOUTUBE]wFMiZNK38No[/YOUTUBE]

Go to about the 10 minute mark, you will see that the briefcase is about 3 feet above this re-enforced ladder that Andre would most certainly have to use. Also, do you see anyone coming even close to being able to knock that thing over besides Andre, even if he was at the top.

Now lets do some math.

Andre is 7'4" tall, add lets say an extra 2 1/2" for a reach and we got about 9'10" reach but so we don't guess lets say Andre has a 9'6" foot reach.

The ladder is about 10 feet tall (going by how tall it is next to Big Show).

The briefcase is about 3 feet from the top so 13 feet.

So by doing the math lets see.

Andre would need to make it to at least 13' to reach the briefcase and on the ground his reach is about 9'6". Now by simple math Andre would have to go about 3'6" to touch the briefcase but to get a good grab on it lets say he would have to go at least 4'6" up the ladder to be able to get the briefcase.

So if the ladder is 10 feet tall, Andre wouldn't even have to go half way up the ladder in order to get the briefcase. So by simple math your top heavy argument has no merit whatsoever. For that to matter Andre would have to be probably at least 7 feet up the ladder for that argument to work on a 10 lb ladder, not to mention this ladder is over 300 lbs.

So by using simple physics, you are wrong.

Actually, no Andre wouldn't have to use a ladder like the one the Big Show used. Such a thing would be silly considering it could support the weight of 4 Andre's. The ladder used in the match would probably be similar to the one I posted earlier, and would probably weigh roughly twice as much, if less, than a standard aluminum one.

The argument he used is a plausible one; however, would Andre actually be high enough for Punk to get the leverage to move it? Three to four runges ain't that high. And even if Punk could tip the ladder with Andre on it, it's not like he'd be falling very far. Coming off the middle rope would probably be more devastating.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Actually, no Andre wouldn't have to use a ladder like the one the Big Show used. Such a thing would be silly considering it could support the weight of 4 Andre's. The ladder used in the match would probably be similar to the one I posted earlier, and would probably weigh roughly twice as much, if less, than a standard aluminum one.

The argument he used is a plausible one; however, would Andre actually be high enough for Punk to get the leverage to move it? Three to four runges ain't that high. And even if Punk could tip the ladder with Andre on it, it's not like he'd be falling very far. Coming off the middle rope would probably be more devastating.

But Andre could use the big show ladder and that would make Punks life a lot harder to knock it over. He may not have to but its not bad strategy. Andre may not have to use that ladder, but using it could be advantageous for him since it weighs more than Punk.

Also that's what I'm trying to say. Andre isn't gonna be high enough for Punk to be able to easily tip it over, and even if he could, like you said Andre would have to fall maybe 4-5 feet max. Sure its a hard fall but I have no doubt a prime Andre could shake it off and keep going.

I seriously question Punk could tip it over on its own, even with Andre making the weight uneven. I just don't see it happening, we are talking kayfabe here after all and Punk has never been known for power like Kane (someone who did tip over the ladder) is.

 

[Bernkastel]

But Andre could use the big show ladder and that would make Punks life a lot harder to knock it over. He may not have to but its not bad strategy. Andre may not have to use that ladder, but using it could be advantageous for him since it weighs more than Punk.

Also that's what I'm trying to say. Andre isn't gonna be high enough for Punk to be able to easily tip it over, and even if he could, like you said Andre would have to fall maybe 4-5 feet max. Sure its a hard fall but I have no doubt a prime Andre could shake it off and keep going.

I seriously question Punk could tip it over on its own, even with Andre making the weight uneven. I just don't see it happening.

Why would he though? He be losing his advantage having to drag that thing into the ring, then set it up to climb [it took Big Show several minutes just to get that thing in the ring.] Andre's best stragety would be to decimate Punk and lay him out somehere on the outside, climb back in, grab whatever ladder happens to be near him and start climbing. Even if Punk is laid out on the outside, he's not staying down forever. It makes no sense to bring unnecessaries into the equation.

 

[Benson]

And really, "well maybe he uses a 300 lb ladder" is pure conjecture. Maybe Punk brings an elephant t down to the ring and uses it to bulldoze the ladder. Who knows?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Why would he though? He be losing his advantage having to drag that thing into the ring, then set it up to climb [it took Big Show several minutes just to get that thing in the ring.] Andre's best stragety would be to decimate Punk and lay him out somehere on the outside, climb back in, grab whatever ladder happens to be near him and start climbing. Even if Punk is laid out on the outside, he's not staying down forever. It makes no sense to bring unnecessaries into the equation.

I understand what you are saying but this is how I look at it.

A regular re-enforced ladder is something Punk could easily knock over if he did get up, this ladder would take a lot for Punk to do so.

Andre could simply beat the shit out of Punk, set up the ladder. Beat the shit out of Punk a little bit more then easily climb the ladder without having to do things like keep it balanced while he is climbing. Being the size of Andre using a regular re-enforced ladder could very well be a little intimidating because if he loses his balance he could easily tip it over and hurt himself. Using the Big Show ladder would help greatly in that sense because he doesn't have to worry about that as much. If I was 450 lbs I would be a little apprehensive climbing a ladder so I would want one that I know wouldn't give me much issues when its up.

With a regular re-enforced ladder I would be quite scared I would knock it over by nervousness and simple clumsiness.


Also Benson, through my video I have proven a massive 300 lb ladder could be used in a match, when the fuck has an elephant ever come into play EVER? What If Sting comes down from the rafters, grabs the belt and hands it to Punk? Seriously! At least my argument has been done in a match, yours is just asinine.

 

[Benson]

You've proven that it's been done once before and it didn't work. It's pure conjecture to use it as ANY sort of evidence as to why Andre would win this match. What if somebody raises the prize just as Andre is reaching for it? Hey, it's happened before, right?

 

[JJYanks121]

I'm tempted not to vote in this one because of the utter travesty that was Andre's victory in a fucking submission match over Verne Gagne. Shit like that makes me get very angry with this tournament and the way people vote.

Unfortunately, Andre draws a mediocre opponent here in a weird match so I'm tempted to vote for him. I mean, the arguments make sense to support him in this case, way moreso than "he could sit on Verne for a submission". At least what's being said here doesn't sound all that stupid.

I got a few days right? We'll see. I Vote Gagne because fuck you, that's why.

We'll see which consolation prize actually gets my vote though.

 

[nightmare]

A conversation between 2 wrestling fans based on the posts of this thread.....



Andre is tall but not tall enough to reach without the ladder.

- So he uses the ladder.

Andre is too big and would probably damage a normal ladder. Its happened before.

- Maybe he gets a special ladder- something stronger like a big gold ladder. Yea thats it! Andre is Show's Dad right? He could just borrow it. No Problem.

Yeah but what if Punk tips the ladder over?

-He cant.

Why not? Its not that hard to do. Plenty of people tip ladders when big guys are climbing. Its happened before. He just has to move it, not lift it.

-Well Andre is huge and plus his ladder is heavy so it wont happen.

What if Punk does knock him off?

-Andre is tall so he wont fall far.

But Show fell pretty far to the floor and it took him a while to get up.

-Andre is better. Punk sucks. So he will get up and choke him then climb his big gold ladder.



See how dumb that sounds?

Why exactly wouldnt Punk be able to shift the weight of the top heavy ladder enough to cause the ladder to become unstable? If a 250 lb man flies through the air and collides with the guy on the ladder, it will move. If the ladder moves Andre falls. It has happened plenty of times to the bigger men in ladder matches. Show went up the ladder, the ladder was moved and Show went splat.


Lets also look at the RVD vs Show match. RVD had experience in ladder matches and Show did not. Show tried to swat at the clipboard with the ladder. An in-experienced Show thinking he was tall enough to just bat it down got hit in the gut and then the head by RVD. Later when Show was slowly climbing the ladder RVD ran up the other side and tried a seated senton. Show caught him, but RVD reversed into a hurricanrana taking Show to the outside. He was down long enough for RVD to get up and climb the ladder for the win.

The quicker and more agile man had the experience over the bigger, stronger and slower opponent with no experience and the big guy lost.



Again, why would Punk not be able to take a chair to Andre's legs. He is a smart guy who has no problem doing so. That kind of takes Andre down a peg in the speed department. Punk works the leg and even if Andre keeps Punk down, he is very slow to get up any form of ladder. That gives Punk time to get up. Even if Andre only climbs halfway up the ladder, a big guy with his legs hurt falling from even that height will still be down for a bit. That gives Punk time to smack him some more with a weapon and climb up the ladder.


This really is not that hard to understand.

 

[Tastycles]

So you admit there's a history of big men gingerly climbing ladders that barely support their weight. Good.



But they've never done that. That's baseless conjecture. There's no precedence for that.



Which is why the ladders never look any different, why they bend and twist and fall over all the same and why wrestlers can pull them apart to use as stilts.



Not faulty equipment; the equipment that's been used in every ladder match ever. I'm suggesting a situation with evidence behind it and with precedence. You've magicked this idea that WCW for the first time in history supplies mysteriously reinforced ladders out of thin air.

The entire idea is ludicrous and I'm surprised I have to explain why.

Can we please stop talking about the ladders? There is a precedent of the heavy duty ladder. There is even a precedence of using them against Punk!



So is that put to bed now? Reinforced ladders exist in the wrestling world.

 

[Danger Burger]

I have to agree with tasty... It even said it in the opening post, do not say that Andre couldnt climb a ladder, this is hardly even an extension of that, and frankly its a ridiculous read!

There are plenty of justifyable means for punk to win this (not easily, he'll still have a fight) so we really dont have to rely on an arguement of weak ladders!!

Vote punk! Facts dont lie, other things might!

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

The ladder match goes back 40 years. So you're really going to me that the wrestlers of the 70's and 80's would be dumbfounded when they would be told to climb a ladder and grab a briefcase?

"The ladder match could have been invented by either Dan Kroffat of the Stampede Wrestling organization out of Calgary, Alberta, Canada or British wrestler Kendo Nagasaki. In September 1972, Stampede Wrestling held the first-ever ladder match between Dan Kroffat and Tor Kamata, where the object to be grabbed was a wad of money. In 1987, Kendo Nagasaki competed in a ladder match on the popular World of Sport."

The differential between those two is 15 years. It's sounding to me that whatever ladder matches existed then, they weren't exactly common. And people would approach the match similar to how they approach every new obstacle, with caution. You can understand and fully appreciate the rules of a game, but putting your knowledge into practice for the first time isn't going to be a straight transition. H's going to have apprehension on his side, and Punk will not.

Let's address your soliloquy on how Punk was the self made man and how Cena had everything handed to him and all that rhetoric you spewed out. I'm going to compare Cena and Punk's first three years in the WWE and let's see how they did.

Punk: ECW Champion, 2-time MITB winner, IC Champion, Tag Team Champion, and 2-time World Champion

Cena: U.S. Champion, WWE Champion

What's happened here is a combination of things:

- Punk came in and did start low on the card. He came straight into the C show after going to OVW ad feuded with Mike Knox, a guy who wasn't even mid-card material. Then he feuded with Hardcore Holly. Then he feuded with Matt Striker. Then he lost MITB. Then he was involved in that new breed and original ECW feud which led to him feuding with Elijah Burke. So all the time it's a list of odd-jobs and nobody and he's proving himself to the guys upstairs. And this is more or less his first year.

- Once he started to the get the call to the main stage which was, somewhere around 2 years after he entered televised broadcasting, he was coming into a main event scene which was very tame compared to the wilderness of the one Cena entered. Again, he didn't come in and start competing with the top guys immediately, he won MITB, got himself a world title and even then was booked as an underdog as he hadn't broken through. Eventually, he feuded with Jeff Hardy which helped him show and showed people what he had in his tank a heel, and since then has never been far from the main event. Then finally he feuded with John Cena and is at last booked as somebody who can go toe-to-toe with anybody and win. He's had to work to earn that privilege. It took him over 5 years to be where he is.

- Conversely, John Cena's first ever match was against Kurt Angle who was on top of the world at that time. They gave him TEN WHOLE MINUTES on a non-PPV show to show what he could in the ring. The next thing he did is a speaking bit with Undertaker backstage. If that isn't WWE outright saying, 'THIS IS THE GUY WE WANT TO LEAD OUR COMPANY' I don't know how else they could do it aside from simply saying it. What happened is they pushed him to high and he couldn't sustain it. He hadn't learnt enough yet to be competent enough in and out the ring to get himself over at the level they wanted him at so he fell back a bit. It wasn't until Wrestlemania 20 when he AA'd The Big Show that you knew that e was going to rise and not stop until he was the guy. Vince McMahon saw a rock, and the potential, and he molded it into the image he decided and there was John Cena. Now that isn't saying he isn't talented, that's a case for another argument, one to which most people would undoubtedly say yes. But the case is Vince gave him the ball from day one and he did indeed run with it, Punk worked for it.

- Punk already had a full body of work upon which WWE could judge and invest in him. Cena had no such experience for them to use when making their decision. When they put Cena out there on television with the biggest wrestling stars in the world, they based how he would do on something like 2 years in a wrestling developmental territory in OVW.

My point is merely that Punk really worked to get himself to the position he's in and he did it by passion and determination. He doesn't lay back even when he's in a good spot, he acknowledges what he can do and compares it to what he is doing:

[YOUTUBE]bjkYVFh5WMU&feature=relmfu[/YOUTUBE]

About 6:30 to 10:30.

Seems to me like Punk accomplished a lot early in his career way more than Cena did. You referenced that Cena had the benefit of working with Lesnar, Angle, and Benoit in 2003. Well, genius, fast forward to 2004. Who was he working with? Booker T, Rene Dupree, Big Show, and Carlito. The cream of the crop they surely are and Cena still got over. Punk still can't even be the man when he's the WWE Champion and I'm still waiting for that day to come.

He got over after he didn't succeed initially in the top flight. He had to go back and start a bit lower to that he could make it a little bit later on. CM Punk got over after the Jeff Hardy thing and they felt comfortable to let him try something in the mid-card with the SES which produced some of the most interesting stuff on Smackdown and then gave him a stint as guest announcer because they knew he could do it competently, then they jumped him back to the main event when ready with the Nexus and when it didn't go the way it was supposed to he got frustrated and it helped to bring about the whole scenario of the last summer. No way that came from nothing. Punk was perhaps given an open mic, he was perhaps told to shoot but you could clearly see how angry he was getting as he was talking and some of the things he said were clearly well over the line.

Punk has worked for everything he's got, and whilst you can say he still isn't the man, everything he's got is earnt through hard work and passion for his spot. Whilst Cena works at least as hard as anyone, he got a jump start and has grown into his position.

So, I think the whole point of this was that he's a one of a kind talented guy. And Andre, whilst being a visual spectacle, isn't a phenomenal anything aside from that. CM Punk is experienced in these matches, he wins in these matches (don't forget the one I named from when he faced Chris Hero in a 55 minutes TLC match and won), he would use his natural abilities and experience to win this match one way or another.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

A conversation between 2 wrestling fans based on the posts of this thread.....



Andre is tall but not tall enough to reach without the ladder.

- So he uses the ladder.

Andre is too big and would probably damage a normal ladder. Its happened before.

- Maybe he gets a special ladder- something stronger like a big gold ladder. Yea thats it! Andre is Show's Dad right? He could just borrow it. No Problem.

Yeah but what if Punk tips the ladder over?

-He cant.

Why not? Its not that hard to do. Plenty of people tip ladders when big guys are climbing. Its happened before. He just has to move it, not lift it.

-Well Andre is huge and plus his ladder is heavy so it wont happen.

What if Punk does knock him off?

-Andre is tall so he wont fall far.

But Show fell pretty far to the floor and it took him a while to get up.

-Andre is better. Punk sucks. So he will get up and choke him then climb his big gold ladder.



See how dumb that sounds?

Why exactly wouldnt Punk be able to shift the weight of the top heavy ladder enough to cause the ladder to become unstable? If a 250 lb man flies through the air and collides with the guy on the ladder, it will move. If the ladder moves Andre falls. It has happened plenty of times to the bigger men in ladder matches. Show went up the ladder, the ladder was moved and Show went splat.


Lets also look at the RVD vs Show match. RVD had experience in ladder matches and Show did not. Show tried to swat at the clipboard with the ladder. An in-experienced Show thinking he was tall enough to just bat it down got hit in the gut and then the head by RVD. Later when Show was slowly climbing the ladder RVD ran up the other side and tried a seated senton. Show caught him, but RVD reversed into a hurricanrana taking Show to the outside. He was down long enough for RVD to get up and climb the ladder for the win.

The quicker and more agile man had the experience over the bigger, stronger and slower opponent with no experience and the big guy lost.



Again, why would Punk not be able to take a chair to Andre's legs. He is a smart guy who has no problem doing so. That kind of takes Andre down a peg in the speed department. Punk works the leg and even if Andre keeps Punk down, he is very slow to get up any form of ladder. That gives Punk time to get up. Even if Andre only climbs halfway up the ladder, a big guy with his legs hurt falling from even that height will still be down for a bit. That gives Punk time to smack him some more with a weapon and climb up the ladder.


This really is not that hard to understand.

Andre can still use his upper body strength to tip over the ladder even if his legs don't work. It would also take Punk a long ass time to work those legs over because his legs are massive. Andre could easily tip over that ladder while sitting down. Punk would still have to keep Andre down long enough for him to get close to the ladder, I just don't see that happening.

The reason I went for the giant ladder is:

1) It provides enough stability for Andre to get up there and there is almost no chance he would fall off it by himself.

2) Once its set up he can just annihilate Punk to the point where once it is set up he can just stroll up it without any issues. Unlike Punk Andre could keep the guy down long enough where he could get up there.

3) Unlike the Big Show Andre doesn't have to take care of 5-7 guys he only has to take care of Punk. If Show knocked down Ziggler it was always someone fresh to make the save. This aint happening here.

4) For the top heavy ladder theory to work, Punk would have to lift the ladder from the other side which would be wery difficult because its a 300 lb ladder. Also the ladder is middle heavy, not top heavy so even if the weight is uneven because Andre wouldn't have to go up to the top of the ladder, mayve 4-5 rungs. If you go from the side its gonna be even more difficult for Punk to tip it over.

5) If it was 20 lb ladder it would be much easier to tip over, so when Punk tries Andre could climb down to wail on Punk some more. I

Punks quickness, agility and smarts wouldn't be enough to overcome Andre in any situation. I haven't seen anyone give a good argument yet as to how it would.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

There is one simple aspect to any type of Ladder Match that Punk fans are simply not addressing - you have to render your opponent incapacitated. Worse still for Punk, unlike MitB and multiperson Ladder matches, you have to do this on your lonesome. As someone (namely me) has already pointed out, his record against giants is far from sterling and here he is facing THE Giant who has a laundry list of victims left lying of all sizes.

Spoiler

Lets try some simplicity:

Khali -

[YOUTUBE]gbUGZ46xYtk[/YOUTUBE]​

Kane -

[YOUTUBE]67X94I-r6bg[/YOUTUBE]​

Big Show -

[YOUTUBE]YUaeZD_KIdA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]​

Undertaker -

[YOUTUBE]ZO4n8evxdYY[/YOUTUBE]​

The Punk guys can shout all day about the stipulation being the be all, end all here and that Andre has no chance because there is no evidence that he could win one of these matches - sketchy case at best.

What definitely exists is evidence of Punk taking on the giants in the WWe and (as the above shows), it doesn't look good for the Straight Edge Saviour and looks even worse when you throw in that the only one of these four who will be mentioned in the same breath as Andre years down the line is Taker.

Oh, and for the completely ridiculous argument about ladder strength, does anyone really think that WCW would set themselves up for a major litigation by causing an injury to one their greatest competition's top guys by providing substandard equipment?

And for those who are claiming Andre is too dumb to win this , what's so complicated that his dinosaur brain to compute. "Ug, wee man must beat Andre up to climb ladder but Andre is strongest there is so Andre smash puny human!" Okay, that's a bit flippant but it does cover the basics - all Andre has to do is reach out of the ring and grab a ladder (because, Einstein that he is, Punk is guaranteed to get outta Dodge in the early going) and lure his opponent back in so that he can get his hands on him. Then, as the clips attached attest, Punk will be laid out and Andre will saunter up the ladder and grab his passport into the next round.

 

[cult_of_icecream_bar]

The only way punk can win here is with a hit and run strategy.Match starts,punk runs away into the crowd,andre grabs a ladder,starts climbing,punk gets back,takes another ladder,hits andre in the knee joint,runs away again.If he manages to do so 10-12 times he'll have time to climb himself.And for your kind info,andre even in his prime was a human,he'll have to be hurt.

 

[cult_of_icecream_bar]

I'm tempted not to vote in this one because of the utter travesty that was Andre's victory in a fucking submission match over Verne Gagne. Shit like that makes me get very angry with this tournament and the way people vote.

Punk beat hart to get here,so field leveled.Similar to andre,so vote unbiased.