WCW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (2) Andre The Giant vs. (11) CM Punk

[Big Sexy]

I'm glad CM Punk has experience in TLC matches but look at who he has beaten. Jeff Hardy, Miz, and Alberto Del Rio. Not exactly a who's who of elite superstars. A couple wins over guys who are basically upper mid carders doesn't exactly make the guy an expert at the match. The experience is nice but in no way does it make up for the huge disadvantage Punk is at in every other aspect of this match.

I'd also like to point out that when Punk and Big Show had their little feud back in 2010, Punk got his ass handed to him. Even with the SES, Punk could not overcome the size of Big Show. You can bring up that 2010 wasn't Punks prime but it certainly wasn't Big Show's prime either. There's also the fact that Big Show is no where near as dominant or as big of a name as Andre was.

 

[JGlass]

Miz was beating up on Lawler the entire match, Lawler threw a few desperation punches, Riley came up on the ring apron for a clothesline Lawler ducked and shoved him through a table below.

Miz regained the advantage, beat down Lawler with a chair, teased climbing up the ladder for the win, but instead got cocky and went up to the top rope, mocked Lawler, which allowed Jerry to recuperate and push him off the top turnbuckle, where he happened to fall through a table below. He beat down the ladder for most of the match, and in true typical Miz fashion, got cocky in the end and nearly cost himself.

Here's a description of the match I found on the internet. I'm going with a description because I can highlight in blue and red who was on the offensive more clearly.

Blue is Miz
Red is Lawler

Match 9: The Miz v. Jerry Lawler (TLC match for the WWE Championship)

In the King's first ever WWE title match, Lawler reversed the Miz's initial attack attempt, but fell victim to a bodyslam on the second lock up. On the third lock up, the King was the one to deliver the body slam to the champion. The Miz responded with a series of kicks and punches on the King, and threw him to the outside. Miz followed him to the outside of the ring, and hit Lawler twice with a steel chair over the back. The Miz forced Lawler back into the ring where he now had two chairs. He set them across from each other in the center of the ring, but almost got suplexed into them. The Miz lucked out by landing on his feet on the other site of the chairs, then dropped Lawler first with his back on the chair, then hit him with a reverse DDT. The Miz continued his attack by beating on Lawler and then ordered Alex Riley to get a ladder into the ring for him, but as Riley was getting it ready, the King assaulted the Miz with multiple chair shots and then went to the outside to attempt to grab his own ladder and bringing it in the ring. As the Miz tried to intercept the ladder by grabbing on to it, the King nailed him with the ladder. In the ring, the Miz was able to escape a shot with the ladder and took the offensive temporarily until he rushed the King who ducked and dumped the Miz on the ladder. As soon as the King had the upper hand, Riley interfered by hitting Lawler from behind, and tried suplexing him to the outside. King knocked Riley off the apron through the table. The King climbed a ladder he set in the center of the ring until the Miz cut him off and hit king with a suplex, and then a few vicious chairshots to the back of the King. The Miz then took the chair with him to the top rope, where he was knocked off from by the King. The King attempted to superplex Miz into the ring, but the Miz fought off. However, the King was able to shove Miz to the outside, knocking Miz to the floor and having him go through a table. As Lawler climbed the ladder, Michael Cole got involved, first trying to help the Miz, and then hanging on to Lawler's foot to prevent him from climbing the ladder. Lawler confronted Cole and eventually unleashed a punishing beating. In the mean time, the Mix climbed the ladder behind Lawler's back, but the King noticed and climbed the other side of the ladder. The two fought on top of the ladder until the Miz knocked the King off the top, allowing him to pull down the title and win the match.

Hmmm, looks pretty even to me. And let's keep in mind, Miz had TWO people interfere on his behalf. Not exactly the most compelling case for the experience angle, eh?

 

[Nate DaMac]

Miz was beating up on Lawler the entire match, Lawler threw a few desperation punches, Riley came up on the ring apron for a clothesline Lawler ducked and shoved him through a table below.

Miz regained the advantage, beat down Lawler with a chair, teased climbing up the ladder for the win, but instead got cocky and went up to the top rope, mocked Lawler, which allowed Jerry to recuperate and push him off the top turnbuckle, where he happened to fall through a table below. He beat down the ladder for most of the match, and in true typical Miz fashion, got cocky in the end and nearly cost himself.

So basically you're saying that his experience wasn't a factor? Experience would dictate that being arrogant instead of winning the match is going to cost you in the long run. If he had used his experience, he wouldn't have done that.

Experience. Doesn't. Matter.

 

[Benson]

Ok, so it wasn't "a few desperation punches", Lawler got in more offense than that. But the majority of the match was Miz dominating and using the weapons to his advantage, showing his experience much more than Lawler was.

And then he showed his lack of maturity.

Just rewatched the match, and yeah, Lawler got in a good bit more offense than I had remembered. But still, it wasn't 50/50 or as much as JGlass's review would have you believe.

As for Miz's experience though, I'd argue that his knowledge of the atmosphere around here played very well into the match and had him looking strong for the majority of the match, and at the end of the day, he did win. I'd argue that it was Lawler's experience in wrestling in general, and Miz's lack of maturity in the ring that cost him.

Regardless we're getting WAY off topic with this, and I admit my revisionist mistakes on the ins and outs of that match. The experience factor, in general, to me though, is still a strong point.

 

[Tastycles]

The first thing I'm going to say is that people need to be less shit at physics. Two men standing at different points on a ladder with a combined weight greater than Andre's is not the same as one man standing on a ladder in the same place. So that argument for him not being too big for the ladder is wrong. However, if the people making that argument had ever watched wrestling, they'd know that wrestling loves shit like "specially reinforced ladders". So it's a pointless argument.

Secondly, if Andre is at the top of a ladder, it's easier, not harder for Punk to topple the ladder, because he doesn't have to push it very far for the turning moment to be reached. Again though, nobody should be making the argument in the first place, because it wouldn't happen.

Punk has experience in ladder matches, sure, but so what? Let's look at the history of TLC to see if experience makes a difference:

TLC 1: Edge and Christian win, all parties have equal experience
TLC 2: Edge and Christian win, all parties have equal experience
TLC 3: Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho win, they have the least experience
TLC 4: Kane wins, from the only team without any experience
TLC 5: Edge wins, has most experience
TLC 6: Cena wins, has least experience
TLC 7: Edge wins, has most experience
TLC 8: CM Punk wins, has least experience
TLC 9: DX win, have least experience
TLC 10: Miz wins, equal experience
TLC 11: Edge wins, has most experience
TLC 12: Punk wins, has equal experience

So, of the 12 matches, 4 matches involved people with equal experience, 5 involve the team with the least experience winning, and 3 involve the guy with the most experience winning, and all of those instances were Edge. It's starting to look like rather than experience being a factor, Edge is just good at TLC matches. Well, beating the elderly and Mexicans in them anyway.

What is Punk going to do to beat Andre to climb up the ladder anyway? Ladder matches almost always end with a huge spot. What could Punk do to Andre that was huge? Nil. Andre wins.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Classic Slyfox argument here. He begins by detracting from the point with a little aside to a Jim Carrey movie, then pounces!

Yes, I don't blame you for feeling those matches were devastating to your case.

They weren't devastating to my case. They just didn't have shit to do with it. An 8 man match is nothing like a 2 man match. But nice try for attempting to make that link.

I don't know, do you agree that the rate of growth for a single blade of grass is faster than the rate of growth for a different type of grass?

Here, Slyfox distracts the reader with some awful aside that seems to strengthen his argument and hide its flaws. NOTE: Has nothing to do with the argument.

All of which is to say, "who gives a fuck"? Seriously, why are we still on this argument. Punk has worked a grand total of TWO matches that are TLC. TWO. In those two matches, he wrestled a druggie and two guys whose combined weight is roughly equivalent to Andre. There is absolutely ZERO point to be made here.

Terrible. Just awful. Slyfox, backed into a corner when he realises that this point is actually won by me, goes on to say that its not good enough.

Punk winning two matches is not enough! I want 12 matches! He needs to beat Hogan! And Savage! And Stone Cold!

Your reasoning is ridiculous, setting such high standards for Punk and saying Andre gets a free ride because he never competed in one. Yeah no shit, they never would have booked Andre in one because they knew it would be a car crash.

Two matches is still more than none. Give it the fuck up dude. You lost this point.

If Punk was something like 12-0, then you might have a conversation. Hell, even 7-0 would be something. But 2-0, against three guys who never sniffed the Top 5 spots in the company? No thanks.

When Punk beat Hardy, he was the hottest thing in the company. But, no, he should have beaten him 15 fucking times. That would make it better.

Yes, and let's evaluate those wins.

Over the hill Flair.

Over the hill Lawler.

Over the hill Undertaker

Drugged out Hardy.

Refer to my

CALIBER OF OPPONENT DOES NOT DETRACT FROM WINNING RECORDS

argument from above.

But oh, wait, no that's not good enough for you! Andre was undefeated! That has to mean something. Well, shall I counter your argument? Thats down a bit further.

So congratulations, you're resting your case on three examples of guys in their prime defeating guys whose primes even Father Time doesn't remember, and the fact Punk beat someone who probably wasn't even aware he was in a match.

No one remembers Ric Flair, Lawler and Undertakers prime? Are you high dude? Cue Slyfox quoting this and making a Jeff Hardy joke HAR HAR.

Great argument.

Thanks.

Actually, as I showed, faster more agile people do not fair well in this match up. Did you not see all those names I bolded? I find it amusing you try and claim speedy people win matches, and when it's pointed out speedy people lose these mathces, those matches aren't relevant to the conversation.

Actually, no you didn't. You highlight ONE, 8 man tag match where a bigger guy won it. Bravo though. Bang up job.

I highlighted about 7 matches where an agile guy won.

But it does destroy your "smaller guys do better" argument. Which means the only thing you're left holding in your hands is a stupid 2-0 argument and your dick. And neither are getting any action in this thread from anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

Dick jokes. Classic. That'll bring in the voters.

I don't actually. CM Punk is very average as an athlete. Is he faster than Andre, yes. But he's not speedy.

Faster than Andre is all he needs to be.

Absolutely, considering it's well known and well documented Andre never won a championship because promoters knew there would be no way to get the title off of him.

You can blame booking all you like, but kayfabe wise, CM Punk still triumphs over here. It's still a point for Punk.

So you're left holding a 2-0 record, your dick, mediocre speed and a microphone. Somehow I just don't think that's going to save you against Andre.

HEY EVERYONE! DICK JOKES!

Why would world titles or mic work matter from a kayfabe perspective, which is obviously what you are arguing?

They don't, I didn't bring them up, you did.

Not when the record is 2-0, against competition that isn't in Andre's league.

No one Andre ever beat was in Punk's league. Wow, see how easy it is to come up with stuff like that?

He beat a pre-Hulkamania Hogan at Shea and some no names in Japan.

He beat King Kong Bundy, John Studd, Hillbilly Jim, Nicolai Volkoff, Kamala, Roddy Piper, Ken Patera, One Man Gang, Sgt. Slaughter, Billy Graham, Blackjack Mulligan, with a whopping TWO WWF title reigns between all of them.

Oh, and he also lost to to Baron Von Raschke, Nick Bockwinkel, Killer Kowlaski, Moondog Mayne, The Shiek, Dory Funk Jr, Ole Anderson, Edouard Carpentier, The Spoiler, Dick the Bruiser, Antonio Inoki, Ernie Ladd.

He only was able to capture the WWF title through shady means.

He never faced a multi-time, grand slam champion like Punk and won.

So which is it Sly, you decide:

Either calibre of opponent doesn't matter, and Punk's TLC Record stands as evidence, or calibre of opponents does matter, and Andre was a glorified version of the Great Khali?

Well, since you seem to want to talk about records, how about the fact Andre was billed as undefeated in North America until Wrestlemania 3? If we looked at CM Punk's win/loss record just from last year, he would have more losses than Andre did over the course of a decade. Since win/loss records apparently matter.

Undefeated against who?

I mean yeah he drew matches and that fair, and sure he lost to El Canek and Inoki. But the guys he actually beat? A green Hogan and some no names.

Punk's losses and wins are more impressive. You know, pinning the Hogan of the era clean and all, in his prime.

Let's review. My argument consists of one of the most dominant performers of all time, who won almost every match he was ever in with his incredible and never seen before and never seen since strength, using his incredible size to dominate a smaller and weaker opponent because promoters love the fact he has worldwide name recognition and is a huge draw.

If you were to go into the history books, I would say the Great Khali has won most matches he was in. Andre was booked as a monster so eventually someone else could be see as the monster-slayer. I don't know if you want to say Hogan here or the Ultimate Warrior, who consistently dominated Andre. Andre didn't beat big names. Punk does.

Your argument consists of 2-0, your dick, mediocre speed and a microphone. Geez, who to vote for...

DICKKKKKK JOKES.

Vote Andre...unless you like holding Mantaur's dick.

People of WZ Forums.

You can choose to vote with the Mods and Admins because maybe they'll notice you and think you're a cool dude.

But me? I choose to vote with logic and reason.

Vote CM Punk.

 

[Benson]

What is Punk going to do to beat Andre to climb up the ladder anyway? Ladder matches almost always end with a huge spot. What could Punk do to Andre that was huge? Nil. Andre wins.

Andre could climb the ladder, and as you said the leverage point would make it easier to topple the ladder over, and they could do a spot where the wrestlers falls from the ladder in the ring all the way through a table placed outside the ring. With Andre's size, that would assuredly be enough to keep him down.

 

[Born To Fly]

Seems like Andre got jobbed out here. CM Punk is known for his MITB wins and excellent ladder matches, while Andre is Andre. Sure, it's going to take Punk a while to put Andre down, but once Andre goes down, I can't see him getting back up. This is Punk's to win.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

There's a very good chance that CM Punk -- being the incredibly clever and witty man that he is -- has seen the Princess Bride. Just in case you've managed to go your entire life without mattering at all, HERE IS A LINK to the clip.

In all seriousness, I'm obviously not saying that because Andre got knocked out by Westley in the Princess Bride, he's going to lost to CM Punk. That comparison makes just about as much sense as half the bullshit that's been said in this thread already... It was a joke. Calm down. It does illustrate an important, albeit fictitious (you know, because wrestling isn't) point that there is SOMETHING that SOMEBODY could do to potentially defeat Andre the Giant.

CM Punk is a crafty sumbitch. He's downed guys like the Big Show, and I wouldn't put it past him to come up with some way to win this match. Still, comparing Andre to Show is silly -- it's still the best comparison we have. Punk vs Andre just may be the very biggest David/Goliath match wrestling could ever see. Or at least, it's the biggest one we're going to see in this tournament. I'm not saying Punk is destined to win, and if we're talking Andre in his prime one should probably make the case that NOBODY BEATS HIM EVER (except Antonia Inoki --why the fuck is he out of this tournament?), I'm just saying if Punk manages to pull out the vote here it's not entirely implausible.

If we're going to throw in random-ass arguments, you might as well mention that this match is in WCW, and depending on the era and regime, "certain" promoters and creative people liked to do stupid things like have undeserved stars ruin perfectly good undefeated streaks. From a booking standpoint, Punk might be put over just for the sake of the "shock factor".

ALL OF THAT BEING SAID, that's pretty much all I could come up with to support Punk. His speed is superior and he's clever enough to figure something out. That's it. Andre's almost flawless record, sheer dominance and ability to literally throw Punk around the ring, through tables, and off of ladders kind of makes this one a no-brainer. I just thought, seeing as how I'm from Chicago, I would at least try to give my boy a fighting chance.

 

[Danger Burger]

Andre is no slouch, he's a panzerfaust if anything, but punk was raised on Attitude Era, ECW and backyard wrestling... Weapons play hugely to his advantage!! Andre is huge and powerful, he can definately hit harder... But punk has the speed, intelligence and experience to be able to dodge and keep away, Andre on the other hand is the biggest target on the planet. Punks history of ladder match success is in his favour too. Andre can climb whatever the hell he wants (i certainly will not be stopping him) and hell, he could probly grab the belt from standing, but punk is good at this kind of match, its a fact. Facts are useful.

Outside of facts, theres andre's strenght, he could toss punk around all he wants, but punk could easily avoid all that, and slowly work away on the gaint, endurance is in punks favour too! Andre the giant being BILLED as undefeated (despite not being) could be said about brodus clay. Drawing power of andre was much bigger, the numbers reflect that, but the numbers in general also point towards the decline in WWE fans in general, theres simply not as many so a comparison is not fair. Punks got more title reigns, it doesnt matter if CENA and Edge arent hulk hogan, they were still top and he still beat them.

The fact that andre won the submission match is not proof he should win this. In a submission match you ned to be able to take down, manipulate and contain your oponent, thats just difficult to do to a Giant. MITB matches are not reliant on anything but resilience, intelligence and experience of hardcore/ladder/TLC matches (as proven by ALL the results mentioned earlier), and which here favours punk immensly.

PS. One interesting (though probably massively ignorable factor) is that this match is PRIME VS PRIME and to quote from a recent CM punk inteview "My prime? I havent reached my prime yet... I'm already the best wrestler in the world and i'm nowhere near my prime"... If he can win MITB at midcard level (declared earlier), imaging him in his prime?

 

[Uncle Sam]

Sorry, I'm about to suggest that agility - or, rather, a lack of monstrous mass - matters in ladder matches, as does a proven winning record. Get your torches, pitchforks, and assorted sex toys ready, you kinky buggers. I do so love it when you're cruel and unusual.

Could Andre climb a ladder? One of those ladders that falls over when it's hit with a stiff breeze, falls to pieces with a good shove, and snaps entirely in half when Jeff Hardy jumps on it? One of those ladders that The Big Show - who, contrary to popular belief, is similar in size, weight, and agility to Andre - had come away in his hands and collapse under his weight when he tried to climb it, forcing him to design his own super-ladder? Well, conceivably.

I mean, he's not Hulk Hogan with fucked up knees, or Sting with a bad back - he's a 475 lb man climbing something which a 441 lb man turned to scrap by trying to do the same thing. If Andre wanted to climb that ladder without destroying it, or having it fall over as soon as he left the ground, he'd have to do it very slowly and cautiously, but it might just hold his weight long enough for him to get to the top. If he were fighting a tortoise, guinea pig, or perhaps some variety of domestic cat, maybe he'd win in a ladder match. But he's fighting CM Punk.

CM Punk is very good at ladder matches. He has possibly the best record in wrestling in them. What's more, if you want to inexplicably argue that a TLC match and a ladder match aren't essentially the same thing, he's very good at TLC matches. He's so good at ladder matches that he's won two Money in the Bank matches; something that nobody else has done. He's so very good at TLC matches specifically that he defeated 'Mr. TLC' Jeff Hardy in one to win the world heavyweight championship, and then won another one in which Miz and Alberto Del Rio teamed up on and handcuffed him to every object they could find to retain the WWE Championship. Shit, the latter even demonstrated how Punk can kick ladders apart when he wants to.

Basically, when Andre climbs a ladder, this happens:

When CM Punk climbs a ladder, this happens:

Someone with proven success in ladder matches - and yes, their younger brothers, TLC matches - is facing the type of wrestler who has never proven successful in a ladder match. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes.

 

[Daniel]

This is the most intriguing match-up of this round. The sheer volume of posts prove it, as does how often I'm visiting this thread. After a fair bit of deliberation, I've come to the conclusion that Andre wins in just about every possible way.

First, let's look at the weight issue. Andre can't climb a ladder without it buckling under the pressure, right? Wrong. As Andre has never been in a ladder match, let's use the guy who was considered so much like him, that he was marketed as Andre's nephew: The Big Show. Now The Big Show has been in three ladder matches (one on one, tag team TLC and a Money In The Bank). Due to the final match, my everlasting impression of Big Show and ladders is that he can't climb one. Wrong. Skip to 1:20.

[YOUTUBE]mfCjkz24_bk[/YOUTUBE]

That would be The Big Show climbing a ladder. "But how can this be?" I thought to myself. "I've seen Show try to climb a ladder before, and he broke two of the rungs." And then it hit me. If the promotion (in this case WCW) wanted Andre the Giant to climb a ladder, they would make sure he could climb a ladder. They'd buy one that could hold him. It's that simple.

And why wouldn't they want him to climb the ladder? Not only would it create a better, more compelling match. They'd want him to climb a ladder because they'd want him to win. Andre the Giant was a bigger draw, more influential, more successful, and has a greater legacy.

Plus, this is WCW. Punk would be cruiserweight and Andre would be at the forefront of the company. There is no way Punk would win.

 

[Slyfox696]

Yes, let's evaluate those wins, and not do the shitty job that Sly did. Seriously man, if you're going to commit to something, commit to it.

Fuck you, it was 1:15 in the morning, and I had awoken at 6:00 a.m. to work all day. Oh, and that other thing I told you about elsewhere.

So, of the 12 matches, 4 matches involved people with equal experience, 5 involve the team with the least experience winning, and 3 involve the guy with the most experience winning, and all of those instances were Edge. It's starting to look like rather than experience being a factor, Edge is just good at TLC matches. Well, beating the elderly and Mexicans in them anyway.

Good analysis.

Classic Slyfox argument here.

Winning never gets old.

They weren't devastating to my case.

Sure they were, that's why you tried to exclude them.

They just didn't have shit to do with it.

Agreed, but I'm not the one who brought them up. Of course, none of the other matches have anything to do with this either, for reasons I've already mentioned.

Here, Slyfox distracts the reader with some awful aside that seems to strengthen his argument and hide its flaws. NOTE: Has nothing to do with the argument.

Actually, it's a parallel example to your TLC...like I said, it has absolutely nothing to do with Andre vs. Punk. Thought I made that clear already.

Punk winning two matches is not enough! I want 12 matches! He needs to beat Hogan! And Savage! And Stone Cold!

Now that would be a start, I might actually concede this particular part of the argument if Punk had done that.

But no, you're talking about 2 fucking matches. And you're comparing it to a record of 0-0. Seriously, do you really consider THIS to be your best argument?

Your reasoning is ridiculous, setting such high standards for Punk and saying Andre gets a free ride because he never competed in one.

Ahh, reading comprehension, I love when people don't use it.

I'm not saying Andre gets a free ride or setting high standards for Punk. I'm saying this entire line of your argument is absolutely ridiculous, because Punk didn't face Andre in a TLC match, and you have no proof Andre would not have been just as dominant in TLC matches as he was in every other type of match.

Does it suck to know your entire argument rests on incredibly faulty logic?

Yeah no shit, they never would have booked Andre in one because they knew it would be a car crash.

Words cannot accurately convey the stupidity of that statement.

Two matches is still more than none.

Very good, your 5th grade teacher taught you well!

Give it the fuck up dude. You lost this point.

The irony is amazing.

You know Andre is bigger. You know Andre is better. You know Andre has the overall much better record. You know there is not one shred of evidence that Punk has ANY advantage over Andre. So you're resorting to TWO matches, against opponents who are nowhere near Andre's caliber to try and be convincing.

I suggest you "give it the fuck up dude". You're fighting a losing battle with logic.

Refer to my

CALIBER OF OPPONENT DOES NOT DETRACT FROM WINNING RECORDS

argument from above.

Amusing, considering your post later.

And I'm not detracting from your argument, I'm pointing out that nobody Punk beat is even close to being in Andre's league. If I play one on one basketball with a 7th grader and beat him 19 times in a row, are you telling me that's just as impressive as beating a college basketball player 10 times in a row? If you are, you don't deserve to post in this thread any more.

No one remembers Ric Flair, Lawler and Undertakers prime? Are you high dude?

Point






*whoosh*






Your head



My point was that those guys were all WAY beyond their prime in those matches, rendering your argument completely laughable considering Andre is most certainly in his prime.

Actually, no you didn't. You highlight ONE, 8 man tag match where a bigger guy won it. Bravo though. Bang up job.

I highlighted about 7 matches where an agile guy won.

You must be delusional. I highlighted MANY matches where smaller guys lost.

Dick jokes. Classic.

Thanks.

That'll bring in the voters.

Oh, I'm sure if they're voting for Andre, they'll do it because of his obvious size advantage, obvious strength advantage, undefeated record, huge name, etc.

My dick jokes only serve the purpose of mocking you.

Faster than Andre is all he needs to be.

Stronger than Punk is all Andre needs. And Andre is far stronger than Punk than Punk is faster than Andre.

You can blame booking all you like, but kayfabe wise, CM Punk still triumphs over here. It's still a point for Punk.

No it's not. When promoters see you as being ABOVE the title, it indicates a level far beyond being champion. Every person with an iota of knowledge regarding pro wrestling knows this.

They don't, I didn't bring them up, you did.

Exactly, they don't. So Punk basically has ZERO advantages in this match, aside from being slightly faster than Andre. I'm glad we agree.

No one Andre ever beat was in Punk's league.

So then you agree that beating Miz, Del Rio, Hardy, Studd, Fujinami, etc. is irrelevant to this match? Glad you finally agree with me.

So which is it Sly, you decide:

Either calibre of opponent doesn't matter, and Punk's TLC Record stands as evidence, or calibre of opponents does matter, and Andre was a glorified version of the Great Khali?

I decided a long time ago, this was YOUR argument.

But if you're going to try and use 2 wins against opponents no where near Andre's caliber, then I'm going to use Andre's far better record to show that Andre still comes out on top. This was your argument, I'm just beating you in it.

You can choose to vote with the Mods and Admins because maybe they'll notice you and think you're a cool dude.

WOW...are you really resorting to this ridiculous of an argument? Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you. If my argument for my guy sucked as much as yours, I'd try to redirect into shaming people as well.

The fact of the matter is Andre is bigger, he's stronger, he gets to use weapons. Andre rarely lost, Punk lost just last week. I've shown smaller guys regularly lose TLC matches, that Andre is far beyond the caliber of Miz, Del Rio and Hardy, and other people have refuted the "experience" argument. Andre was the far bigger draw, the mainstream name, and he did it without even having a good grasp on the English language.

If people wanted to vote for common sense, they'd vote for the big strong guy who overturns cars with his bare hands, but now gets to use weapons on a small flabby weaker man with average athleticism.

Andre wins this easily.

 

[Bernkastel]

I looked up some of the codes for common aluminum ladders that the WWE most likely uses in their matches. The Special Duty Type IAA has a maximum working load of 375 pounds, as rated by the American National Standards Insitution. This means that in order for Andre to have a chance of climbing one without breaking it the ladders would either need to have additional reinforcment, or be made out of steel, thus making them heavier.

The most likely scenario for this match would be that WWE would provide the reinforced, but heavier ladders, as it wouldn't be much of a contest if Andre couldn't climb a ladder without breaking it. This senario favors Andre, as swinging an aluminum ladder at someone may not hurt, but swinging an steel ladder would... allot.

And while I have little doubt that CM Punk could haul around the heavier ladders, I don't see him being able to neutralize Andre long enough to get to the top. I see Andre dominating most of the match, and Punk mounting a comeback and putting Andre through a table of some sort with a kamikaze dive from the top rope to the outside. Punk sets up the ladder in the middle of the ring and slowly starts to climb. Andre suddenly recovers, tips over the ladder which send Punk to the outside. Andre sets up the ladder, slowly climbs to the top and wins.

Of course this scenario is only viable if WWE doesn't screw him over by using the standard aluminum ladders which don't support his weight, but they wouldn't, because it's Andre the fucking Giant. Respect.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

What is Punk going to do to beat Andre to climb up the ladder anyway? Ladder matches almost always end with a huge spot. What could Punk do to Andre that was huge? Nil. Andre wins.

[YOUTUBE]niRmkOWRgxE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

29 minutes and onward please. Andre is bigger than Taker and Punk is smaller than Edge, but did you notice the relative ease Edge had doing that. It's about moments, it is no comparison pushing over a ladder with someone on to picking up the person that is on the ladder. CM Punk would not find THAT a difficult thing to do. And if he does, fuck knows how Andre will get back up when Undertaker couldn't and he's taken bumps 1000x the likes of the ones Andre took.

Otherwise he could:
- Push the legs of the ladder together so it falls over.
- Smash Andre in his back (which, even when he was younger, was not in great condition due to the nature of acromegaly) with a ladder.
- Jump off the top rope and dropkick him in the head.

Just some options.

I also want to address another point made. People keep saying that Andre when he faced Hogan is nothing copared to Andre back in the 70s in terms of his ability to move around. True. That does not mean that Andre was agile in his younger days. That is a bullshit statement.

Andre was able (slowly with difficulty) to climb the top rope back then. He could throw anus dropkicks, as Big Show has still been known to do occasionally. But he was still slow, he still fell over like a tonne of bricks and simply couldn't bounce back up with ease. In fact, without them goggles on, Andre's agility when he was younger is quite comparable to The Big Show now. Sure he CAN climb top ropes, ladders, and maybe even run, but with great difficulty. To say at any point that he was anything approaching agile, is just wrong.

Also, Andre is going to hope someone has the foresight to fetch him one of those re-inforced ladders in this match, otherwise he's going to be standing under those belts staring at them, pondering what the feck he's supposed to do to win. Someone would probably account for them but there is no guarantee, Big Show needed to get his specially made after realizing he couldn't climb the ladder without breaking it. Andre had better hope to have learnt that lesson too.

TLC matches are big bump spotfests. I want examples of big bumps Andre has taken that exceed a simple body slam, or maybe as much as falling over the top rope. Not only has Andre never competed in a match like this, he's rarely competed in gimmick matches and certainly nothing even remotely like this. That means, that whilst correctly not being rocket science, it is very alien to him conceptually. Think to the initial HBK and Razor Ramone ladder match about 10 years after Andre was competing competently. Now imagine dropping that match 10 years earlier. Bizarre. Now imagine making that a TLC match. Gorgeous George is going to be scratching his head, Harley Race rolling his eyes, Andre will be looking on in bewlinderment. This match is very familiar to Punk, it's completely alien to Andre, indescribably alien, and that will play a part.

And as much as people keep knocking Punk's 2-0 record in TLC matches, there is one thing certain about it. It means we don't know how much is required to beat him in this type of match. And equally the same can be said of Andre.

But I want to throw out his MITB matches as well. Out of the three he's been in ( a match that involves 7 other superstars which drastically reduces your chance in winning) he has won two of them. And let's face it, how much more hardcore is a TLC match when Ladder matches already have a huge steel object ready for use, and the added chance of using a chair or table as they are fully sanctioned. I mean, that's the reason the match was thought up in the first place. WWE realized that they were as good as legal so put a stamp on it by openly saying that tables and chairs were legal. In reality, there isn't much, nor any difference. Winning two out of three matches like that against 7 other guys is majorly impressive. And a quote from his first match in MITB " At WrestleMania 23, Punk competed in, but did not win, the Money in the Bank ladder match, being knocked off the ladder just seconds before the winner, Mr. Kennedy, claimed the briefcase." Once again being close to winning the match.

So what if we go a little further back? Punk won his first ever TLC match, a near 60 minute encounter with Chris Hero in the Independent Wrestling Association. That was the only other example of a TLC match I could find for Punk. That makes him 5-1 in MITB and TLC matches combined. I can't find his record for ladder matches, but I'm sure somebody would be able to. But the only time a guy the size od Andre has gotten the better of Punk and it involved a ladder, is when Big Show took Punk's mask off, and at the time, he had one arm in a sling, so well done there.

I'm voting punk, not because of experience, but because a winning record doesn't lie, because this concept is too foreign to Andre for him to just adapt to, because Punk,whilst not being exactly THE fastest guy, is still ten times more agile than Andre in his prime, because Punk is handy with weapons and Andre has huge targets on his body like any guy of his size does and then some. A superb combination of all the above sees Punk through.

 

[justinsayne]

I really really want to vote for Punk but the only two poster that have given anything close to a compelling argument in Punks favor, are the Sams. Other than that nobody has given anything close to a good argument, in fact they've all been pretty fucking stupid.

I'm heavily leaning toward Andre on this one. There was a period in time, a long period of time, like 15 yrs., when Andre was unbeatable, with the exception of a few losses that happened outside of a WWF(E) ring. One to Canek in Mexico, one to Inoki in Japan, & a couple 60 min. time limit draws to Harley Race & Nick Bockwinkel. I don't think Punk has ever been dominate at any period of his career any where.

Punk may be faster, more agile, & have the experience advantage when it comes to this type of match, but that amounts to nothing in this match when you take into consideration he's going against a juggernaut in Andre. Andre doesn't need speed, agility or any of that shit to win this match, he just needs to get his hands on Punk, once that happens it's over. With tables, ladders, & chairs at Andre's disposal Punk would be lucky to have the ability to walk away after this match is over. Andre just needs to destroy Punk & leave him a lifeless mass on the ring floor. Then, depending on how high the object above the ring is, Andre would just need to reach up & grab it, or if he can't reach it then go out to the side of the ring grab the steps & use those, Andre doesn't even need ot climb a ladder to win this match.

Unless someone other than the Sams can produce a compelling argument I thinking Andre has my vote, which is a shame as I'd much rather vote Punk.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Then, depending on how high the object above the ring is, Andre would just need to reach up & grab it, or if he can't reach it then go out to the side of the ring grab the steps & use those, Andre doesn't even need ot climb a ladder to win this match.

I'm so sorry, I'll get to Slyfox's wall of text tomorrow, but jesus christ!

He's not that fucking tall!

He's was billed 4 inches taller than Kane, and Kane most definitely needs to climb a ladder to reach the briefcase.

Who do you think is hanging up this briefcase? Danny Devito?

And you actually called my arguments ******ed.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

[YOUTUBE]niRmkOWRgxE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

29 minutes and onward please. Andre is bigger than Taker and Punk is smaller than Edge, but did you notice the relative ease Edge had doing that. It's about moments, it is no comparison pushing over a ladder with someone on to picking up the person that is on the ladder. CM Punk would not find THAT a difficult thing to do. And if he does, fuck knows how Andre will get back up when Undertaker couldn't and he's taken bumps 1000x the likes of the ones Andre took.

Otherwise he could:
- Push the legs of the ladder together so it falls over.
- Smash Andre in his back (which, even when he was younger, was not in great condition due to the nature of acromegaly) with a ladder.
- Jump off the top rope and dropkick him in the head.

Just some options.

1. Undertaker weighs about 50 or 60 pounds more than Edge. Andre is twice as big as Punk is. Add on to the fact that there will be a reinforced ladder for Andre, I don't see how Punk is going to tip that ladder over.

2. Who says Andre is going to take a big bump? I'm not.

I also want to address another point made. People keep saying that Andre when he faced Hogan is nothing copared to Andre back in the 70s in terms of his ability to move around. True. That does not mean that Andre was agile in his younger days. That is a bullshit statement.

Andre was able (slowly with difficulty) to climb the top rope back then. He could throw anus dropkicks, as Big Show has still been known to do occasionally. But he was still slow, he still fell over like a tonne of bricks and simply couldn't bounce back up with ease. In fact, without them goggles on, Andre's agility when he was younger is quite comparable to The Big Show now. Sure he CAN climb top ropes, ladders, and maybe even run, but with great difficulty. To say at any point that he was anything approaching agile, is just wrong.

Andre can knock the fuck of Punk long enough so that he can take all the sweet time he wants. After all, we're talking about climbing a ladder. We're not talking about parkour.

Also, Andre is going to hope someone has the foresight to fetch him one of those re-inforced ladders in this match, otherwise he's going to be standing under those belts staring at them, pondering what the feck he's supposed to do to win. Someone would probably account for them but there is no guarantee, Big Show needed to get his specially made after realizing he couldn't climb the ladder without breaking it. Andre had better hope to have learnt that lesson too.

Undisclosed location, the day before the match...

Vince: Hey Andre, are you sure you know what you're getting into? This Punk guy is real good. He is 2-0 in TLC matches and you've never been in one.

Andre: Pfft. I've taken a look at this Punk guy and he will not be a challenge to me. I can beat him drunk and I heard he doesn't drink. What a sissy. He will need a drink after what I will do to him.

Vince: I don't know if the ladder can hold your weight, Andre. Punk can and will use anything to his advantage. He will take your knees out with a chair and put you through a table. I hope you're not afraid of heights.

Andre takes a table and throws it up at the briefcase which falls down.

Andre: What do you know? It fell down and I didn't have to climb no stinking ladder. Now get me the biggest ladder you can find so I can take it and bash Punk to death with it. And get me some beer for the victory party.

Vince: May god have mercy on Punk's soul.

TLC matches are big bump spotfests. I want examples of big bumps Andre has taken that exceed a simple body slam, or maybe as much as falling over the top rope. Not only has Andre never competed in a match like this, he's rarely competed in gimmick matches and certainly nothing even remotely like this. That means, that whilst correctly not being rocket science, it is very alien to him conceptually. Think to the initial HBK and Razor Ramone ladder match about 10 years after Andre was competing competently. Now imagine dropping that match 10 years earlier. Bizarre. Now imagine making that a TLC match. Gorgeous George is going to be scratching his head, Harley Race rolling his eyes, Andre will be looking on in bewlinderment. This match is very familiar to Punk, it's completely alien to Andre, indescribably alien, and that will play a part.

Climb a ladder and get a briefcase. That's real alien.

And as much as people keep knocking Punk's 2-0 record in TLC matches, there is one thing certain about it. It means we don't know how much is required to beat him in this type of match. And equally the same can be said of Andre.

1-0. I'm not counting multi-man matches.

But I want to throw out his MITB matches as well. Out of the three he's been in ( a match that involves 7 other superstars which drastically reduces your chance in winning) he has won two of them. And let's face it, how much more hardcore is a TLC match when Ladder matches already have a huge steel object ready for use, and the added chance of using a chair or table as they are fully sanctioned. I mean, that's the reason the match was thought up in the first place. WWE realized that they were as good as legal so put a stamp on it by openly saying that tables and chairs were legal. In reality, there isn't much, nor any difference. Winning two out of three matches like that against 7 other guys is majorly impressive. And a quote from his first match in MITB " At WrestleMania 23, Punk competed in, but did not win, the Money in the Bank ladder match, being knocked off the ladder just seconds before the winner, Mr. Kennedy, claimed the briefcase." Once again being close to winning the match.

Irrelevant. Punk isn't fighting seven men. He's fighting one man possibility with the strength of seven men.

So what if we go a little further back? Punk won his first ever TLC match, a near 60 minute encounter with Chris Hero in the Independent Wrestling Association. That was the only other example of a TLC match I could find for Punk. That makes him 5-1 in MITB and TLC matches combined. I can't find his record for ladder matches, but I'm sure somebody would be able to. But the only time a guy the size od Andre has gotten the better of Punk and it involved a ladder, is when Big Show took Punk's mask off, and at the time, he had one arm in a sling, so well done there.

This isn't going to take 60 minutes. It may take 60 minutes for the parademics to resuscitate Punk after the match.

I'm voting punk, not because of experience, but because a winning record doesn't lie, because this concept is too foreign to Andre for him to just adapt to, because Punk,whilst not being exactly THE fastest guy, is still ten times more agile than Andre in his prime, because Punk is handy with weapons and Andre has huge targets on his body like any guy of his size does and then some. A superb combination of all the above sees Punk through.

I'm voting Andre because he's the better overall wrestler.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Of course this scenario is only viable if WWE doesn't screw him over by using the standard aluminum ladders which don't support his weight, but they wouldn't, because it's Andre the fucking Giant. Respect.

1. Thank you for pointing out that a ladder would struggle to support Andre's weight.
2. Would the WWE give Andre a special ladder, in doing so disadvantaging Punk by removing all regular ladders? That's quite a reach.
3. This is WCW, not WWE.
4. The only reinforced ladder in history is one which The Big Show himself created (in kayfabe). It took him about three painful minutes to pull it through the ropes, then somebody else used it to win the match.

Andre doesn't even need ot climb a ladder to win this match.

I didn't put steps on it because the perspective looks totally fucked as just a silhouette - it just looks like a vague zigzag. You understand. Needless to say, Andre's going to need some serious lifts in his shoes if he's going to stand on some steps to win.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Anyone who believes a TLC match doesn't help CM Punk is nuts.

I'm not saying it automatically gives him an advantage, but it helps his chances. In a regular match, Andre wins 100 out of 100 times. I'd say the same for Bret Hart, if he were in this match... and he should be.

Anyyyhow, yeah, not sure here. I think Punk has the ability to hurt Andre more so than any other opponent Andre has faced. Not because Punk is a bad ass, but no other opponent of Andre has had a set of rules like this to utilize. Also, after a ton of punishment, I have to be convinced Andre can climb a ladder. No, this isn't Hogan all over again, that was stupid. Andre, on the other hand, has a lot more weight to put on damaged knees, something Punk would definitely target.

I want to vote for Andre, and maybe I should, but I'm just not sure at this point.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I am really having one watching everyone argue. Most guys on each side are trying to make it look as if this is going to be a piece of cake for the other guy. I would say that this is the most difficult match of this round. The stipulation has evened things up quite a lot, in my opinion.

There are two things to consider in this match-up. The first thing is that if Andre gets his hands on Punk with a weapon in his hand, Punk would get severly injured. If that happens, then there is nothing stopping Andre from winning this match no matter how slowly he climbs the ladder.

But the fact remains that Andre was not that agile, especially not in his prime. See, you cannot have it both ways. I found something off wikipedia that I found pretty interesting.

Roussimoff next moved to Montreal, Canada, where he became an immediate success, regularly selling out the Montreal Forum. However, promoters eventually ran out of plausible opponents for him and, as the novelty of his size wore off, the gate receipts dwindled. Roussimoff wrestled numerous times in 1972 for Verne Gagne's American Wrestling Association (AWA) as a special attraction until Valois appealed to Vince McMahon, Sr., founder of the World Wide Wrestling Federation (WWWF) for advice. McMahon suggested several changes. He felt Roussimoff should be portrayed as a large, immovable monster. To enhance his size, McMahon discouraged Roussimoff from performing maneuvers such as dropkicks

The point that I am trying to make is that, in his prime, Andre was not the speedy big guy that threw dropkicks. The fact that he was slow and immovable was a part of his character. Vince Sr deliberately took the agility facet out of Andre's game to make him into a bigger draw because as has been evidenced here, after the initial surprise of seeing a guy that big passed, Andre was not being able to draw big before Vince Sr changed his game around.

This is not a match comparable to Cena vs Edge. I do not think that Cena is any less swifter than Edge and he really pulled off some impressive moves in that match like the five knuckle shuffle off the top rope. Say whatever you want, but from the video Slyfox showed us showed me that Andre was pretty gassed out after performing his big move from the top rope. This is a match in which such moves are common. How do we know that Andre has the stamina to keep going after performing such moves? I am not saying Punk is Usain Bolt but he is decidedly faster than Andre. If Punk keeps evading Andre here and somehow manages to keep his distance, he may win.

Also wanted to talk about this.

What is Punk going to do to beat Andre to climb up the ladder anyway? Ladder matches almost always end with a huge spot. What could Punk do to Andre that was huge? Nil. Andre wins.

How about Punk just pushing him? It's funny that you are talking about us knowing so little about physics in the earlier part of this post and then saying this. Guess you forgot your own argument from last year wherein you were talking about the Centre of Gravity of the ladder shifting upwards due to Vader's weight and it becoming easier for Thesz to push the ladder down due the shift in the centre of gravity due to Vader's weight.

Tis true folks. Andre climbing the ladder will make it easier for Punk to push it. The centre of gravity of an object shifts towards the point where most of the weight is concentrated, maybe even further depending upon the weight of the person, and if Andre is anywhere near the top of the ladder, Punk will find it easier to push him. Furthermore, Andre may topple over. The real disadvantage for Andre here is not breaking the ladder off but toppling over.

Oh, by the way this is Tasty's argument from last year.

To elaborate on that last point, IC has said that "it will be easier for Vader to take Thesz off the ladder than vice versa" or something to that effect. This is where the physics lesson comes in. What makes an object fall over is when its centre of mass is no longer over its base. The lower the centre of gravity, the less likely it is to fall over. If you have a man who is twice as heavy as his opponent on top of a ladder, the centre of mass will be almost twice as far off the ground, which would make the ladder twice as easy to topple. Probably why superheavyweights never ever win ladder matches.

Think I am leaning more towards Punk after this post but I can still be convinced otherwise.

 

[Bernkastel]

Thank you for pointing out that a ladder would struggle to support Andre's weight.

And it would. ANSI doesn't certify the production of a standard aluminium ladder that can support a weight beyond 375 pounds.

Would the WWE give Andre a special ladder, in doing so disadvantaging Punk by removing all regular ladders? That's quite a reach.

They wouldn't do that; they would simply replace all of the 16 foot aluminum ladders with 16 foot steel reinforced ladders, making them heavier and harder to handle.

This is WCW, not WWE.

I don't see why that would matter. If this were an actual contest it wouldn't make sense for a company to put one performer at a clear disadvantage. It'd be a great way to lose money.

Then again, it's WCW... and they knew how to lose money better than anything else.

The only reinforced ladder in history is one which The Big Show himself created (in kayfabe). It took him about three painful minutes to pull it through the ropes, then somebody else used it to win the match.

That was a double reinforced, 350 pound steel monstrosity with a 2000 pound weight limit; such a thing would be overkill in this match, not to mention unnecessary.

With the issue of Andre's weight solved with ladders that are heavier than a standard aluminum ladder, but still light enough that Punk could move them around, the contest would be fairer and more satisfiying to watch.

That being said I'd give the contest to Andre for reasons I mentioned before.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Lets try some simplicity:

Khali -

[YOUTUBE]gbUGZ46xYtk[/YOUTUBE]​

Kane -

[YOUTUBE]67X94I-r6bg[/YOUTUBE]​

Big Show -

[YOUTUBE]YUaeZD_KIdA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]​

Undertaker -

[YOUTUBE]ZO4n8evxdYY[/YOUTUBE]​

The Punk guys can shout all day about the stipulation being the be all, end all here and that Andre has no chance because there is no evidence that he could win one of these matches - sketchy case at best.

What definitely exists is evidence of Punk taking on the giants in the WWe and (as the above shows), it doesn't look good for the Straight Edge Saviour and looks even worse when you throw in that the only one of these four who will be mentioned in the same breath as Andre years down the line is Taker.

Oh, and for the completely ridiculous argument about ladder strength, does anyone really think that WCW would set themselves up for a major litigation by causing an injury to one their greatest competition's top guys by providing substandard equipment?

 

[Bernkastel]

Oh, and for the completely ridiculous argument about ladder strength, does anyone really think that WCW would set themselves up for a major litigation by causing an injury to one their greatest competition's top guys by providing substandard equipment?

Arguing that a standard ladder wouldn't support Andre's weight isn't ridiculous, it's plausible. What's ridulous, as you said, is a company not providing reinforced ladders that would be strong enough to handle Andre's weight, and yet still light enough so that Punk could still move them around.

I'm assuming that this match would feature such an equal playing field. And under an equal playing field I don't see Punk beating Andre in his prime. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to learn how to climb a ladder... unless you're afraid of heights, which I doubt Andre would be.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I'm still failing to see why this reinforcement of ladders thing is anything more than pure conjecture. The only thing that comes close to providing a precedent for it is The Big Show 'building' his own ladder to bring to the match, and that's an entirely different thing. If anything, that just goes to show that the company is unwilling to provide anything other than 'regulation' ladders. Big men have always had to make do with what's there in ladder matches. If Mark Henry or Great Khali or, indeed, Big Show have wanted to win ladder matches, they've had to try and shimmy up the same ladders made of tin foil and toothpicks as everyone else.