I think that if Cena turns now what will happen is that the adults would cheer him suddenly and the kids will boo him thus create the opposite effect. Especially if he changes back to his rapper character. Another thing to mention is that the kids that were 6-10 a few years ago are getting to be 12-16 and now in the demographic that boos him now so enviably the change should happen in that aspect. Another idea to consider is that the Rock has made Cena look like a fool especially in recent weeks that now he's gonna be booed regardless if you leave him face or turn him heel. The original OP is right about not doing a damn thing because of this fact. I would also add that if he did turn heel then his current T shirt would be lying because he did not rise above the hate and would set a bad example to the children when he turns thus corrupting the little minds that believed in his message.
**MERGED** John Cena Thread - Heel Turn, Matches, Etc. (Keep it in here!!)
- Thread starter Jack-Hammer
- Start date
You just said:
Obviously you're just as much to blame for John Cena's success as I am.
No, he was NWA Champion, as well as the Intercontinental Champion when it meant something. Today's World Heavyweight title is the equivalent of the Intercontinental title back when Steamboat held it.
Then you think wrong, as usual.
Ricky Steamboat was never WWF champion, because he was dedicated to becoming the WWF champion. The WWF asked him to step up his workload, to do more appearances, in preparation of building him as a champion, but Steamboat said no. Steamboat instead took time off to spend time with his family, right when the WWF was set to give the guy some serious backing.
Now, I don't fault Steamboat at all for that, I think it was a classy move by a classy man. But the idea of blaming Hogan for it shows, once again, how little you understand wrestling.
And by the way, who the fuck cares if Hulk Hogan injected steroids back in the 1980s? It wasn't illegal back then, and everyone was doing it. Hell, Vince McMahon contracted doctors to come in and line the guys up to give them the steroids. Your comment was merely intended as a prejudicial one, which only served to make you look stupid....again.
Those are two different people.
People who can't stand his persona and boo are stupid. Not because they're not recognizing the greatness that is John Cena, but because their booing does nothing more than legitimize Cena's place as a main-eventer. If all the people who boo Cena because they just don't prefer him didn't make any noise at all, then the WWE wouldn't push him so hard.
The fact is most people who boo Cena do so because they either don't understand wrestling, or they think a guy with good morals who always tries to do the right thing isn't nearly as cool as a wife beating, beer drinking redneck who threatens to shoot people. Like you. Which shows how dumb and morally corrupt you are.
I don't like it either, and I think the WWE could handle it better, but what does that have to do with John Cena? What does that have to do with who he is, and how good he is? It's the WWE who tells Cena he can't go out and bury the Rock every week (and I understand the reasoning behind that, since Rock isn't there to retort). But just because you don't like what the WWE is telling Cena to do, that doesn't mean the guy isn't a great wrestler, who does what he is asked to do better than anyone else.
Are you really incapable of understanding that?
Wrestlemania 28...that's where Cena beats Rock.
Only an idiot can claim a guy with strong morals and values who always strives to do the right thing has a douchy attitude. Do you realize how stupid and immature you sound.
The Rock is the one with the douchy attitude. But it's okay, because he says the word "ass" and "lady parts", and that makes a good face, right?
And I want you to have the tiniest bit of understanding of how pro wrestling works, but we obviously don't always get what we want.
Don't like it. Don't like it at all.
While I will admit that if a person really doesn't like a particular character, especially in the wrestling business, the more effective way to get them de-pushed is to not respond at all but to call an entire group of people who dislike his persona, stupid, is mean and wrong.
Sly, I get that you're a very smart man. I don't know what your profession is, but its clear that you have an education and thats to be commended. But you are not always right.
It would seem as if you want people to think you're not a pure fan of John Cena, but the more and more I read your posts, the more the contrary becomes true. Your comments as of late, have your usual "facts" but have also been laced with a lot of opinion and superiority.
You have a lot of wrestling knowledge and that is not in debate, and there are a lot of people on these forums who do not have the insight that you are privy to, but to call people stupid, or to question their morality because they don't like a persons character are based on assumption and clearly not based in fact. I don't like John Cena, but that doesn't mean my morals should be in question. Why would they be? He stands for truth, justice and the american way. So do I. But I still don't like his character and theres nothing wrong with that.
So, is it safe to say, that you criticize people for making empty arguments about John Cena based on opinion, when you are in effect doing the same thing about the people who don't like him?
Because based on what you've said, thats whats happening. You've lumped people who boo Cena into categories of stupid, ignorant or immoral.
And sir, no matter what you say from here, THESE comments seem to be made from the viewpoint of a man who is a serious fan of John Cena and therefore seriously bias.
Not everyone in these forums are going to step to you, RESPECTFULLY and disagree, but I am and I think you should rethink your position on the fans that boo John Cena.
1TheGreatOne1
Dark Match Winner
Cena in recent months is getting booed more frequently. It used to be mixed reaction at best & now it's full blown heat.
At MSG i found it down right embarrassing how much Cena was booed, there's no excuse for that. Even Cena looked embarrassed about it.
Something needs to be done with him ASAP.
CM Punk deserves to be the new face of the company.
Yes he is getting reaction but it's not the right reaction for a guys who's suppose to be a Face of the company. The crowd DON'T WANT TO SEE HIM at all. It's go away reaction or "xpac heat" as i like to call it. The audience are bored with him.. his goofy ass la la la happy camper attitude is boring. Rock owned him so many time it's not even funny and Cena still smiles like an idiot about it.
That's one thing I hate about him, he doesn't get pissed off and he's ruining this feud by not selling anything Rock does/says.
At MSG i found it down right embarrassing how much Cena was booed, there's no excuse for that. Even Cena looked embarrassed about it.
Something needs to be done with him ASAP.
CM Punk deserves to be the new face of the company.
Yes he is getting reaction but it's not the right reaction for a guys who's suppose to be a Face of the company. The crowd DON'T WANT TO SEE HIM at all. It's go away reaction or "xpac heat" as i like to call it. The audience are bored with him.. his goofy ass la la la happy camper attitude is boring. Rock owned him so many time it's not even funny and Cena still smiles like an idiot about it.
That's one thing I hate about him, he doesn't get pissed off and he's ruining this feud by not selling anything Rock does/says.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Let me explain my comments on Hogan. His heel turn at Bash at the Beach was obviously more or less his true persona. He did it all for the money. Now I don't blame Hogan for that, and I know wrestlers generally portray fictional characters, but Hogan was still a scumbag.
Yes roids were legal back then, and I don't really have anything against wrestlers today using them. I just think it was bullshit for him to preach working out and taking his vitamins, while all along he was sticking a needle up his ass. I know you still have to work out with roids, but it makes it alot easier to work out and lift heavy shit to get the muscles.
I'm not gonna argue that I'm an expert on the business of pro wrestling or "entertainment" as you and Vince probably prefer it to be called. When I said I couldn't stop watching, I wasn't saying I couldn't stop watching Cena. I was saying I couldn't stop watching the rest of the show. I've been with CM Punk since he debuted in WWE.
I've countered your argument about me being morally corrupt or amoral when I boo Cena. However, I don't actually boo Cena, I just silently, and most of the time futilely, root for him to lose his match or get owned. I'm all for doing the right thing, just doing it in a cool and not douchy way. Douchy= Barney and his "love song". Cena leads the Fruit Loop Troop for a reason. Because it's not manly. It's borderline feminine and childish.
I've also said countless times that I don't solely blame Cena for what I perceive to be wrong with his character. However Cena does claim that he isn't playing a character, and that he is being himself. I personally believe that Cena has enough say backstage that he could change if he wanted to. Now again SLY, all of this stuff is my opinion, and I stand by my comments about you having a superiority complex and thinking you are smarter than everyone else.
Yes roids were legal back then, and I don't really have anything against wrestlers today using them. I just think it was bullshit for him to preach working out and taking his vitamins, while all along he was sticking a needle up his ass. I know you still have to work out with roids, but it makes it alot easier to work out and lift heavy shit to get the muscles.
I'm not gonna argue that I'm an expert on the business of pro wrestling or "entertainment" as you and Vince probably prefer it to be called. When I said I couldn't stop watching, I wasn't saying I couldn't stop watching Cena. I was saying I couldn't stop watching the rest of the show. I've been with CM Punk since he debuted in WWE.
I've countered your argument about me being morally corrupt or amoral when I boo Cena. However, I don't actually boo Cena, I just silently, and most of the time futilely, root for him to lose his match or get owned. I'm all for doing the right thing, just doing it in a cool and not douchy way. Douchy= Barney and his "love song". Cena leads the Fruit Loop Troop for a reason. Because it's not manly. It's borderline feminine and childish.
I've also said countless times that I don't solely blame Cena for what I perceive to be wrong with his character. However Cena does claim that he isn't playing a character, and that he is being himself. I personally believe that Cena has enough say backstage that he could change if he wanted to. Now again SLY, all of this stuff is my opinion, and I stand by my comments about you having a superiority complex and thinking you are smarter than everyone else.
That would be because of The Rock, and the circumstantial heat he has.
If you think that's bad, you clearly haven't seen One Night Stand 2006. Or Money In The Bank 2011. Like MSG, Chicago and the Hammerstein Ballroom are very smarky crowds - made even smarkier by Cena's opponent on the night.
Why? Has he stopped making money or something?
No one deserves anything in wrestling. People earn things. The day CM Punk starts to make more money than Cena is the day he will have earned the role as the face of the company.
The right reaction for a face of the company is a loud one.
They have a funny way of showing it, what with all the money they pay to see him.
Sly nailed it in a previous post. He's smiling and taking it because that's what WWE wants him to do. Using it to attack the man himself is stupid.
In addition to the previous point, he doesn't get pissed off with The Rock because we're about halfway through this feud. WWE are being smart and playing the long game with it. Survivor Series marked the beginning of a more physical chapter in the feud, that's when we'll see Cena get angry.
No, I said they are stupid because while they claim to want him to go away, their actions encourage his staying.[cL];3539517 said:
Of course I am. In time, you'll come to realize this.
It does? I'm an unabashed fan of John Cena, and I freely admit he's one of the very few reasons left for me to still watch wrestling.
But the reason for that is not because I subjectively like him, but because objectively speaking he's great.
Not really. Well, the superiority is definitely true, but it's not opinion.
No, it is fact.
When someone will boo a man who strives to do the right thing, who stands up for what he believes, and is proud of who he is and what he stands for, and simultaneously will cheer a man who is a drunken wife beater who threatens his boss with a gun, that someone displays a serious lack of morals. That's not really disputable.
And I never said otherwise. I've never once said there is anything wrong with not finding Cena entertaining. I've said it numerous times.
But the position you hold and the position PunkNation has expressed are not the same. PunkNation doesn't like Cena because he's not morally bankrupt, because he's not someone who forces the TV censor guy to keeps his finger on the button. PunkNation doesn't like Cena because he doesn't tell people to shove things up their rectum, and because he doesn't hit people from behind with deadly weapons.
PunkNation demonstrates a serious lack of morals. Not because he doesn't cheer John Cena, but WHY he doesn't like John Cena.
No, what's safe to say is you misunderstood my post.
I am a serious fan of John Cena, never claimed otherwise. However, unlike some others in this thread, I don't let my bias impact my ability to view an argument objectively. Every statement I make I can support with facts. Every statement I make is true. I like John Cena because he entertains me. I say Cena is a great wrestler because he's proven it to be true over the years. I also think Rey Mysterio is a great wrestler, but I can't stand him.
Bias has nothing to do with discussions on quality.
And I think you should re-read my post to get a better understanding of what it was I was actually saying.
First of all, "heat" has nothing to do with face or heel. "Heat" simply refers to how over a wrestler is. Someone with good heat is someone who has really been embraced by the fans, whether they cheer or boo. Keeping that in mind, Cena has heat for many years now.
Second of all, Cena is not getting full blown boos. You hear the deeper male voices more than you hear the higher pitched voices of the women and children (which is also the case because families generally can't afford close to the ring seats, unlike a group of young males who purchase their own ticket). Cena, however, still gets a very positive reaction.
Finally, you hear more boos than you used to because he's been feuding with IWC darlings Punk and Attitude Era Wrestler X (who happens to be the Rock). If Cena was put back in a program with Miz and Truth again, Cena would be getting overwhelming cheers again, or at the very least, the boos would be no where near as noticeable.
How so? How was Hogan a scumbag? Do you know ANYTHING about Hulk Hogan, other than what's been reported by Internet dirtsheets?
The truth is Hulk Hogan was actually a pretty decent guy, who came up in a very dirty business filled with very big scumbags. In the wrestling business, you look out for only one person, and that's yourself. You have to, because there is always someone else looking to stab you in the back. And when you do make a friend, you have their back because you know they'll have yours, and that's so rare in the wrestling business.
Hulk Hogan did his job and he made sure he kept his job. He did everything he could to provide for his family and make their life the best he could. Hogan used to spend hours signing autographs in his "free" time between shows. Hogan used to visit hospitals to make a sick child's day. Hulk Hogan has done so much good that so often gets unreported, because let's face it...people like you don't want to hear about good things, you just want to hear about bad.
You know Hulk Hogan, you don't know Terry Bollea. So claiming a man is a scumbag based simply upon what you see on TV is hardly a fair thing to do.
Wait, what?
Hogan did work out and he did take vitamins. Yes, he did take steroids, but there was nothing wrong or illegal with that at the time. How was it bullshit for him to preach working out and taking vitamins because he was also doing something else which was also legal? Should we call Lance Armstrong a scumbag because he also drives a car?
One of the smartest things you've said thus far.
It's the same thing.
Pro wrestling...entertainment...as far as the WWE goes, the terms are interchangeable.
No you haven't.
Because he's not a drunken redneck who beats his wife and threatens to shoot people with a gun. Or because he doesn't come out, see his best friend for the first time in years, and stab him in the back by knocking him out with his finishing move (Rock on Foley)?
And you want me to think you're not morally bankrupt?
I don't think you understand what it means to be a douchebag. Add that to the list of words you need to learn.
On the contrary, what Cena does is the most manly thing you'll see in pro wrestling. A guy who stands up for what is right, who does the right thing, who doesn't stab his friends in the back and works his ass off to achieve what he wants is not manly?
You, and so many others in our society, have no idea what it means to be a man. Being an asshole and taking cheap shots at others is not being a man, that's called being a loser or a coward. A real man will look you in the eye and be willing to settle differences, whether it's with a conversation or with his fists.
John Cena is a real man. What you like is not.
Why do people think that saying something is their opinion excuses them from having shitty or completely wrong opinions?
It might be your opinion, but it's a shitty opinion. Or in cases like what it means to be a real man, your opinion is just flat out wrong.
I stand by it too. I freely admit I'm better than you.
Why do people keep thinking I should be insulted by that?
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Yea you're better than everyone here. I hope you understand that a heart attack would kill you just as easily as it would kill me. You are not better than anyone. You're a keyboard warrior.
Steve Austin's on screen persona was not a coward. He told people he was gonna beat their ass and more times than not, he did it. The same can be said for the Rock. I don't care if you think it's "morally bankrupt". In your world, sports and wrestling would be all about sportsmanship and friendship.
Well, like you said, wrestling is about making money and putting on entertaining tv. What you call the "right thing" doesn't necessarily make for must see tv. Hell, in my opinion, it doesn't make for must see tv. It makes for must turn the channel tv. Controversial and edgy tv sell. And like I've said quite a few times now, you can be a jerk and an a-hole, and still like God.
The Rock openly praised God in one of his appearances in the past few months. Oh and it's also morally wrong for you to think you are better than anyone. You would probably cry like a little girl if for instance, some guy with a gun robbed you. Now I'm not ashamed to admit that I'd be scared. If you are as great as you say you are, you would be able to Chuck Norris the mugger's ass. I sincerely doubt that you could do that however.
Oh and speaking in kayfabe, you act like Vince didn't provoke Austin to do all of the things he done. Vince was begging for an ass kickin' and Austin gave him one. Atleast he had the balls to whoop somebody's ass. That's way more than you can say about Cena. You also seem like a kid who got bullied in school, based on your personality. You probably were book smart and went on to college and got some sort of degree and now think you are better than everyone because of your intelligence.
Well, I graduated from school with an A, B average, never bullied anyone, and never got bullied. I was in like 3 fights and won all three. All three fights were against a bunch of dumbass rednecks, as you seem to think I love rednecks so damn much. I actually can't stand rednecks for the most part now that I'm adult. I hate alcohol and drugs. You can be an edgy wrestler without being an alcoholic or a wife beater or a drug addict.
I don't think I'm better than anyone, so in my view that means my morals at least seem better than your's. You sir, are a hypocrite. (SLY)
Steve Austin's on screen persona was not a coward. He told people he was gonna beat their ass and more times than not, he did it. The same can be said for the Rock. I don't care if you think it's "morally bankrupt". In your world, sports and wrestling would be all about sportsmanship and friendship.
Well, like you said, wrestling is about making money and putting on entertaining tv. What you call the "right thing" doesn't necessarily make for must see tv. Hell, in my opinion, it doesn't make for must see tv. It makes for must turn the channel tv. Controversial and edgy tv sell. And like I've said quite a few times now, you can be a jerk and an a-hole, and still like God.
The Rock openly praised God in one of his appearances in the past few months. Oh and it's also morally wrong for you to think you are better than anyone. You would probably cry like a little girl if for instance, some guy with a gun robbed you. Now I'm not ashamed to admit that I'd be scared. If you are as great as you say you are, you would be able to Chuck Norris the mugger's ass. I sincerely doubt that you could do that however.
Oh and speaking in kayfabe, you act like Vince didn't provoke Austin to do all of the things he done. Vince was begging for an ass kickin' and Austin gave him one. Atleast he had the balls to whoop somebody's ass. That's way more than you can say about Cena. You also seem like a kid who got bullied in school, based on your personality. You probably were book smart and went on to college and got some sort of degree and now think you are better than everyone because of your intelligence.
Well, I graduated from school with an A, B average, never bullied anyone, and never got bullied. I was in like 3 fights and won all three. All three fights were against a bunch of dumbass rednecks, as you seem to think I love rednecks so damn much. I actually can't stand rednecks for the most part now that I'm adult. I hate alcohol and drugs. You can be an edgy wrestler without being an alcoholic or a wife beater or a drug addict.
I don't think I'm better than anyone, so in my view that means my morals at least seem better than your's. You sir, are a hypocrite. (SLY)
Well of course it would. That doesn't mean I'm not smarter than you while I'm alive.
No idea what your point is.
Sure I am.
No, I'm right. Significant difference.
Neither is Cena's.
Just for those who claim to be good guys.
And yet, here Cena stands as the biggest draw in the WWE since Rock and Austin left.
Sure...for a while. Then what was once controversial and edgy becomes routine. So you search for the next controversial and edgy segment. Soon you have an 80 year old woman pregnant by a fat black man giving birth to a hand, and Triple H raping a corpse.
Controversy and edgy sells...but only for a while. Cena has been selling for over 6 years and shows no sign of slowing down.
So? What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
Praising God and having morals are not the same thing at all.
No it's not. It's the truth. It's never wrong to speak the truth. Honesty is always the best medicine.
What the fuck does this have to do with what I'm talking about? Here, I know...
Would you say the guy holding you at gunpoint is displaying morality?
What are you, 15 years old?
I've never seen such random bullshit in my entire life. What the fuck are you talking about?
So? Was Debra begging for an ass kickin' too, or did Austin just throw that in for free?
As does Cena. When was the last time Cena ever shied away from a fight?
God, you're a dumbass.
Do you watch wrestling? Ever? Cena is ALWAYS willing to fight anyone. Hell, he begged Vince McMahon to let him fight Punk. Cena has never once backed away from a fight.
Do you ever think before you type?
Not at all. I got along quite well with everyone.
Of course, I already told you this. Why do you continue to bring it up?
8th grade doesn't count.
Congratulations?
Thank you for wasting our time with your life story, which has fuck all to do with this conversation.
Morals and being right have nothing to do with one another. Seriously, you have to be one of the stupidest Cena haters I've ever encountered. The fact I understand wrestling far better than you, and I'm smarter than you, and just because I'm right and you're not, has nothing to do with morals.
It's just the truth.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Yea Cena never backs away from a fight unless it's someone as talented and over as the Rock. I don't give a fuck if it's scripted, Cena's character acts afraid of the Rock. Austin, HHH, Undertaker, or Foley wouldn't take that shit (kayfabe). Cena has enough pull backstage to challenge the Rock on screen. Let's pretend that in an alternate universe that wrestling was real. Cena looks like a guy who talked some shit, and then when Rock called him on it, he sulled up like a scared little bitch and just keeps saying "Well, Rock is the Rock after all, he deserves the spotlight." This after Rock just keeps owning his ass verbally and physically.
Hell, with these confrontations, it just shows that Cena doesn't belong in the same ring as Rock. The point I was trying to make when I brought up the mugger is that you seem to think you are so great, that the people in this world are only alive because you allow it. You seem to be a huge narcissist. Oh and philosophically speaking, without God, morals are basically pointless. You might be able to say they keep people from killing each other, but even if they did so what. If there's no God, life is meaningless.
I graduated from High School, btw, you assmunch. I've also NEVER claimed that I know everything, or that I'm always right. However you do, which is obviously delusional, narcissistic bullshit. As far as I'm concerned, as a person, you are a piece of shit.
Hell, with these confrontations, it just shows that Cena doesn't belong in the same ring as Rock. The point I was trying to make when I brought up the mugger is that you seem to think you are so great, that the people in this world are only alive because you allow it. You seem to be a huge narcissist. Oh and philosophically speaking, without God, morals are basically pointless. You might be able to say they keep people from killing each other, but even if they did so what. If there's no God, life is meaningless.
I graduated from High School, btw, you assmunch. I've also NEVER claimed that I know everything, or that I'm always right. However you do, which is obviously delusional, narcissistic bullshit. As far as I'm concerned, as a person, you are a piece of shit.
TheSDQQKidJoe
Occasional Pre-Show
Assmunch? I loled. PunkNation, you are making absolutely no sense right now. You say Cena backs down from talented and over stars. Do me a favor. Read the main event for this year and the last couple years. If you still believe that Cena backs down, well there's no hope for you.
BTW. Didn't really need to know your life story. BUT, I'm sure Dr. Phil would be glad for it.
BTW. Didn't really need to know your life story. BUT, I'm sure Dr. Phil would be glad for it.
Cena agreed to fight the Rock months ago. Again, do you actually watch the show?
Who gives a fuck? Since you like to compare Cena to Hulk Hogan, Cena isn't doing anything Hulk Hogan wouldn't have done, and Hulk Hogan is the greatest professional wrestler in history.
He already did.
[YOUTUBE]l4Za-HJyfQg[/YOUTUBE]
Start at about 10:45. Again, do you watch the show?
Yes, that is true. I realize that all 7 billion people in the world are only here because I allow them too.
What a dumbass.
No, I'm just right. As I've proven time and again.
God isn't real. Never was. Try again, Sparky.
Then you're a bigger idiot than I previously imagined. The fact you argue like an 8th grader reflects quite poorly on you.
Because it's obvious you don't and aren't.
No, it means I'm always right.
And you're stupid, and you can't fix stupid.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Look, I'll admit that you're right about a lot of stuff, but I won't admit that you're right about everything. Sometimes the points I try to point out aren't worded right and sometimes after reading something I've posted trying to make an arguement, I can see in hindset that I probably shouldn't have posted it.
However, I didn't post anything on Cena on this specific thread for about a month because I took some peoples advice and just ignored him. When I did post something about him I think it had something to do with how I hated the way he interacting with the Rock, and I believe that argument is valid. I did that because I actually want to start respecting Cena's character. The Cena marks should atleast appreciate that.
I don't remember how the God talk started on here, and for all I know I might have been the one to bring it up, but nobody can prove or disprove God's existence. But if for example God doesn't exist, then what would be wrong about cheering for bad guys over good guys, or "jerks" like the Rock over a white meat kid friendly babyface like Cena. If God does exist however, I still don't see what's wrong with cheering Rock and booing Cena.
However, I didn't post anything on Cena on this specific thread for about a month because I took some peoples advice and just ignored him. When I did post something about him I think it had something to do with how I hated the way he interacting with the Rock, and I believe that argument is valid. I did that because I actually want to start respecting Cena's character. The Cena marks should atleast appreciate that.
I don't remember how the God talk started on here, and for all I know I might have been the one to bring it up, but nobody can prove or disprove God's existence. But if for example God doesn't exist, then what would be wrong about cheering for bad guys over good guys, or "jerks" like the Rock over a white meat kid friendly babyface like Cena. If God does exist however, I still don't see what's wrong with cheering Rock and booing Cena.
Err... What? John Cena hasn't backed down from The Rock. John Cena challenged The Rock to a fight, right? John Cena has stared down The Rock, John Cena has hit The Rock with the Attitude Adjustment -- John Cena isn't scared of The Rock, no doubt about. At Survivor Series, The Rock played up like a coward and nailed John Cena with a Rock Bottom, but there's nothing wrong with John Cena not hitting him.
Rock has NEVER and never will own John Cena's ass, whether it be in the ring and on the mic. John Cena has outclassed The Rock in every aspect of this feud. Just because The Rock is playing up to his fans, doesn't mean he's winning this feud. In fact, he's nowhere close. That's where your argument is far off. You don't understand Cena's character at all, for one, and you buy every bit of information The Rock sends your way. Please, look at the feud from an unbiased perspective. When you can finally do that, you'll see what we all see, you'll see that The Rock hasn't been on John Cena's level this whole feud.
John Cena doesn't belong in the same ring as The Rock? Please, The Rock doesn't belong in the same ring as John Cena. When John Cena comes to work, night in and night out, working every house show, just as he has for his entire WWE career, think about what The Rock has done. Rock cashed in on the fame wrestling earned him and bailed. I don't blame him for changing careers, hell, it's better for his health and for his monetary well-being -- but on a pure wrestling stand-point, don't you dare think he's superior to John Cena.
John Cena is the best wrestler in the world today and that includes The Rock. Not only does John Cena have a better work ethic, attitude, and overall skill set than The Rock, but he doesn't need to rely on the same thing every night. His gimmick may not evolve much, but as a performer, John Cena changes night in and night out, whereas The Rock is using the same old tired cliches he used ten years ago. It's clear to me that John Cena cares about wrestling far more than The Rock ever did and ever will -- and that's the mark of a real man.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
If Cena had the same name value as the Rock, he would bail on WWE and go to Hollywood in a heartbeat. I'm not saying Rock's movies are Oscar worthy, because they're definitly not. But seriously, watch Cena's movies. They're all crap. Not all his fault, as the plots in his movie are horrible. HHH movies are shit too though. I just think Cena is overrated.
I'm not saying that for a fact, just in my opinion. Now I know everytime I say "I think he's overrated" SlyFox in particular will post condescending comments on here about how stupid I am. To be honest though I just don't care anymore. This is an opinion based forum. The only factual thing SlyFox has said about Cena is that he draws money. That's true, but I doubt he draws Austin, Hogan, or Rock money. This is a statement where I can definitively be proven wrong. However I could be proven right.
You could also ask, is Cena that good, or is the rest of the roster so mediocre that Cena looks amazing? Considering at how WWE has failed to allow the midcard to develop, Cena should be "electrictfying" like the Rock by comparison. Also, if Cena was that good, I doubt Punk's promo would have basically made him a main eventer. I mean, if somebody like Rock , or Austin or Undertaker were still main eventing on a regular basis, Punk's promo wouldn't have made sense. Cena is the status quo.
Tell me what's so entertaining about Cena winning the WWE Title by beating Del Rio a while back? I'm not saying Del Rio is entertaining, but not a lot of people cared when Cena beat him. Cena get's XPac heat without a doubt. You guys say heat is heat, but come on, Cena is getting "Cole" heat. If it didn't matter, then Hogan wouldn't have turned heel in WCW. It was basically the same situation. People were sick of him. He turned heel, nearly kills WWE, makes a shitload of money.
Now I'm not even saying Cena has to turn full blown heel. Just tell the ones that are booing him to kiss his ass. Stop saying that he respects people's right to boo him. Play with the people that are booing him. I don't know, I just think something has to happen.
I'm not saying that for a fact, just in my opinion. Now I know everytime I say "I think he's overrated" SlyFox in particular will post condescending comments on here about how stupid I am. To be honest though I just don't care anymore. This is an opinion based forum. The only factual thing SlyFox has said about Cena is that he draws money. That's true, but I doubt he draws Austin, Hogan, or Rock money. This is a statement where I can definitively be proven wrong. However I could be proven right.
You could also ask, is Cena that good, or is the rest of the roster so mediocre that Cena looks amazing? Considering at how WWE has failed to allow the midcard to develop, Cena should be "electrictfying" like the Rock by comparison. Also, if Cena was that good, I doubt Punk's promo would have basically made him a main eventer. I mean, if somebody like Rock , or Austin or Undertaker were still main eventing on a regular basis, Punk's promo wouldn't have made sense. Cena is the status quo.
Tell me what's so entertaining about Cena winning the WWE Title by beating Del Rio a while back? I'm not saying Del Rio is entertaining, but not a lot of people cared when Cena beat him. Cena get's XPac heat without a doubt. You guys say heat is heat, but come on, Cena is getting "Cole" heat. If it didn't matter, then Hogan wouldn't have turned heel in WCW. It was basically the same situation. People were sick of him. He turned heel, nearly kills WWE, makes a shitload of money.
Now I'm not even saying Cena has to turn full blown heel. Just tell the ones that are booing him to kiss his ass. Stop saying that he respects people's right to boo him. Play with the people that are booing him. I don't know, I just think something has to happen.
The first step to recovery.
You will eventually.
Fair enough.
Agreed, and I don't have a problem with you not liking the way he interacted with the Rock. But you have to temper what you don't like with the truth, and when you say things like Cena is scared to fight Rock, when the video I posted proved otherwise, you come off badly.
But where I stepped in is where you tried to say Cena isn't an icon, and how he's nothing more than a corporate creation, which is completely false, unless you consider all other pro wrestlers to be corporate creations.
Because jerks like Rock in real life contribute to the decay of society. Society needs more people like John Cena, We need more people who stand up for what's right, who don't try to weasel out of their obligations, who work their ass off every day, and who aren't afraid of challenges.
The Rock's character is a snide, cynical personality who does nothing more than try to tear people down rather than encourage doing the right thing. That's what is wrong with cheering bad guys. Good guys should have redeeming qualities, honorable qualities, which Rock has yet to show since he's been back. When Rock was in the WWF a decade ago, and he was a face, he did show those honorable qualities. He's yet to do so since he's been back. You keep calling me a narcissist who refuses to accept anyone else's viewpoints and claim that makes me a terrible person, but that's EXACTLY the character The Rock has been playing, and you're cheering him.
I don't care if Cena doesn't do it for you personally, it's when you try to make statements of fact which are completely false that I step in to point out how silly it is.
Much like Sly, I'm beginning to wonder if you actually watch the show. The talent pool throughout Cena's tenure has been just fine. He's had guys like Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Kurt Angle, and Chris Jerocho around him, who were all Attitude Era darlings with The Rock. Not to mention the guys like Batista, Edge, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, Booker T, Randy Orton, Jeff Hardy, and Rob Van Dam. That illustrates my point exactly -- all those guys couldn't take down Cena, they couldn't even touch him, so explain this to me now: do they all suck or is Cena just that damn good.
It's clear to me and others, that Cena is just that good. He's a once in a generation talent an to replace him you'll need another guy like that. That puts Cena in the same category as The Rock or Steve Austin. It's undeniable. His rise to the top is one of the more unmatchable rises, rivaling a guy like Rock or Lesnar, even. Cena is clearly a legend and clearly a talent, I'm sorry you can't see that.
For one, Cena still gets pops, big ones too. Half the crowd boos him and half the crowd cheers him -- that's not something you necessarily want to change. Plus, at this point, Cena's getting to the point where he's past heel or face, where he's just John Cena. He plays to his supporters and plays to his detractors, just Rock does/did.
As for your point about Hogan, this is a totally different scenario. Hogan turning heel was needed for WCW, they needed separation from the WWF. Who does WWE need to get away from? Nobody... and why are you so sure a heel Cena would make more money than a face Cena? The same crowds that boo him now, will boo him then, the only thing a heel turn will accomplish is taking the children from Cena's side. Children see wrestling as a good guy/bad guy thing, so they certainly don't side with faces, and they make up a large portion of his fans. You have guys like me and Sly too, but that's beside the point, as all a heel turn will do is actually decrease his fan following.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Crock, you make a great point about Cena turning heel. I guess what I'm thinking is that I myself would start liking Cena if he did something heelish like telling people like me to screw off. This probably makes me hypocritical, but I'm willing to eat crow. I just want him to "toughen" up his image somewhat. I'm honestly not ashamed to say I actually liked his performance in the Marine. The plot was shit, but he was a credible action hero in that movie. It's just his WWE character that I can't stand.
I hate the fact that he's been pushing that shitty merchandise the last 5 years or so. I do realize that WWE is a business. I just personally don't like the fact that he blatantly played to one particular demographic for so long. That demographic was obviously the kids. I just wish that Cena had stayed somewhat adult oriented after he won the WWE Title in 2005.
I realize from a business perspective that it's easier for kids to watch the show with a PG rating, but they shouldn't just leave the older audience out to dry. I know that things are starting to change again, and I'm thankful for that. When I said that the rest of the roster is mediocre, I'm talking about the last few years. You only have Punk, Orton, and Sheamus and I guess Del Rio as credible main event talent other than Cena. The midcard has been festering in obscurity, and the tag team division is on life support. I didn't mention Mark Henry as I think he's just shit. Well I forgot to mention Miz, but I don't care too much for the guy.
The World Heavyweight Title on Smackdown has become the defacto Intercontinental Title of this generation and the Intercontinental Title is like the European Title. The US Title has become like the WWF Light Heavyweight Title in terms of relevance. None of this has much to do with Cena I know, and I did go off topic somewhat, but I was just trying to clarify myself calling the rest of the roster mediocre.
I hate the fact that he's been pushing that shitty merchandise the last 5 years or so. I do realize that WWE is a business. I just personally don't like the fact that he blatantly played to one particular demographic for so long. That demographic was obviously the kids. I just wish that Cena had stayed somewhat adult oriented after he won the WWE Title in 2005.
I realize from a business perspective that it's easier for kids to watch the show with a PG rating, but they shouldn't just leave the older audience out to dry. I know that things are starting to change again, and I'm thankful for that. When I said that the rest of the roster is mediocre, I'm talking about the last few years. You only have Punk, Orton, and Sheamus and I guess Del Rio as credible main event talent other than Cena. The midcard has been festering in obscurity, and the tag team division is on life support. I didn't mention Mark Henry as I think he's just shit. Well I forgot to mention Miz, but I don't care too much for the guy.
The World Heavyweight Title on Smackdown has become the defacto Intercontinental Title of this generation and the Intercontinental Title is like the European Title. The US Title has become like the WWF Light Heavyweight Title in terms of relevance. None of this has much to do with Cena I know, and I did go off topic somewhat, but I was just trying to clarify myself calling the rest of the roster mediocre.
See, right off the bat, I see one major flaw: After Cena won the WWE Title, he still remained fairly unbiased between adults and children. Hell, throughout his whole angle with Edge, he made digs at Lita which NO child would understand. Let's be real here, the change has come gradually, but he still appeals to adult fans. In fact, he REALLY appeals to adults: he's a man's man, an honest and hard-working guy, he garners my respect as well as the respect of a large portion of the adult audience... You can't fault that. John Cena appeals to whoever is open to it, honestly. It really just depends in how you want to take John Cena. Try to take up a different point-of-view when looking at Cena -- it'll do wonders for you.
With a PG rating, they're not alienating the adult audience. All PG does is take away blood, foul langiage, and sex -- do you TRULY need that to enjoy professional wrestling? Nope. They still offer a quality product and solid entertainment; that's what I watch WWE for and that's why I always have and will watch professional wrestling. People have this deluded idea that wrestling NEEDS to be like it was in the Attitude Era, but what they need to realize is that it was nothing but a flash in the pan. Wrestling wasn't like that before the Attitude Era, so why should it be like that after? John Cena, along with today's product, is what wrestling is all about.
Today's talent pool isn't bad, it's just that nobody can stack up to John Cena. Even in the Attitude Era, there was nobody compared to Austin and Rock, just like there had been nobody like Hogan before then. Guys like Orton, Punk, Miz, Christian, Sheamus, Henry, and so on, are all fine talents. Now, the titles may not mean as much as they once did, but they probably stack up better than they did in the Attitude Era. Ziggler and Rhodes have elevated the midcard titles BIG TIME, same with Henry and the World Title. I'm also sure that the WWE Title is worth more than it was in the Attitude Era. The belt was tossed around more, much more, than it is today.
Cena and the WWE are fine.
With a PG rating, they're not alienating the adult audience. All PG does is take away blood, foul langiage, and sex -- do you TRULY need that to enjoy professional wrestling? Nope. They still offer a quality product and solid entertainment; that's what I watch WWE for and that's why I always have and will watch professional wrestling. People have this deluded idea that wrestling NEEDS to be like it was in the Attitude Era, but what they need to realize is that it was nothing but a flash in the pan. Wrestling wasn't like that before the Attitude Era, so why should it be like that after? John Cena, along with today's product, is what wrestling is all about.
Today's talent pool isn't bad, it's just that nobody can stack up to John Cena. Even in the Attitude Era, there was nobody compared to Austin and Rock, just like there had been nobody like Hogan before then. Guys like Orton, Punk, Miz, Christian, Sheamus, Henry, and so on, are all fine talents. Now, the titles may not mean as much as they once did, but they probably stack up better than they did in the Attitude Era. Ziggler and Rhodes have elevated the midcard titles BIG TIME, same with Henry and the World Title. I'm also sure that the WWE Title is worth more than it was in the Attitude Era. The belt was tossed around more, much more, than it is today.
Cena and the WWE are fine.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
Well the midcard back in the Attitude Era was stacked. You had Val Venis, Goldust, The Godfather, Bradshaw, Farooq, Edge and Christian, The Hardyz, The New Age Outlaws, and Ken Shamrock. Heck the list goes on and on. Some of these are teams I know, but they also worked singles midcard matches. The midcard also had great storylines. I personally like some sexual innuendos on the show. They're not necessarily important to the show, but they're entertaining.
I for one don't understand what WWE is doing with Kelly Kelly and the diva's division. They have took all of the sex out of women's wrestling yet they still promote Kelly Kelly being on the cover of Maxim magazine and are obsessed with attractive women who can't wrestle for shit. I'm not sure if WWE has allowed the midcard to be built up until the past couple years. It also doesn't help when you had Cena squashing Barrett in a match a while back. Atleast Orton put Barrett over.
I still contend that Cena has either directly or more likely indirectly, because of Vince McMahon, buried guys or halted their progress.
I for one don't understand what WWE is doing with Kelly Kelly and the diva's division. They have took all of the sex out of women's wrestling yet they still promote Kelly Kelly being on the cover of Maxim magazine and are obsessed with attractive women who can't wrestle for shit. I'm not sure if WWE has allowed the midcard to be built up until the past couple years. It also doesn't help when you had Cena squashing Barrett in a match a while back. Atleast Orton put Barrett over.
I still contend that Cena has either directly or more likely indirectly, because of Vince McMahon, buried guys or halted their progress.
TheHeartbreakPunk
HBK for life
Cena will not have the belt for wmania 28. There's simply no point. It will completely ruin the outcome of the match, because wwe will never have the rock as wwe champion. The wwe championship match shouls be for other guys, specifically cm punk, chris jericho[maybe], and possibly the miz.
Not gonna spend too much time here trying to convince anyone of anything. I'll let you take a look and decide.
John Cena Promo vs. The Rock Promo
The Beginning....
CENA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIr4opyIJWg
ROCK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymxx9i15QPc&feature=related
Non RAW Promos
CENAhttp://forums.wrestlezone.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3541200
ROCK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MGty5p5d1A&feature=related
Now, I pulled Cena's BEST promo against the Rock (one that even I enjoyed and had to give it up to Cena for) and another one that that the Rock responded to.
If you can watch these promo's and say that Cena has owned the Rock during this entire feud, then you truly are a die hard fan and continuing a debate is pointless.
You think so? To each his own...
But it does mean he's doing his job by selling the feud, to his fans and Cena's fans. His fans want him to win and Cena's fans want him to lose. He's doing a better job at selling this feud than Cena has as of late and even a pure fan of John Cena can't dispute that.
thats funnyRock's had one match in 7 years, Cena BETTER be the best in the world today.
stop it!!!!!!!!!!! i can't breathe!!!!!!
wow....THATS the mark of a real man?
I'm not mad at you man. You are a true fan of Cena's. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can appreciate his fans loyalty to him. I'd defend Shawn Michaels the same way.
Hats off to you bro.
(...changes night after night....
)that was good..lol
It's clear that you know NOTHING about professional wrestling. John Cena does, in fact, evolve every time he gets into that ring or in front of this fans. He peddles hustle, loyalty, and respect, but he certainly doesn't throw it down my throat every night. Cena adapts to the crowd which he is entertaining that night, he adapts to his reaction, to his match type, etc. Please, by all means, prove me wrong. You won't, but you can try. The fact of the matter is this: John Cena is the best in the world and he has that distinction for a reason -- his skill set is head and shoulders above anybody else around. John Cena is clearly versatile and is clearly good at what he does, there is no debate there.
Tell me HOW you can possibly think The Rock has beaten John Cena, because I'm genuinely curious. Anybody with half a brain can see that Cena is head and shoulders above Rock, who cuts pre-rehearsed promos, chock full of tired catchphrases. It's fairly common knowledge on this forum, between people who understand wrestling, that Cena is above Rock, all around. Each promo that I've seen between Rock and Cena, Rock looks childish and rather foolish. He feels that he has to validate himself as better than John Cena, so he throws up dirty jokes and that same front he has always thrown up. It may have worked in the Attitude Era, but the fact that he still uses it TODAY, is astonishing.
If anything is laughable, it is your attempts at looking smart, when never actually trying to debate ANY of my points. Nice try.
Tell me HOW you can possibly think The Rock has beaten John Cena, because I'm genuinely curious. Anybody with half a brain can see that Cena is head and shoulders above Rock, who cuts pre-rehearsed promos, chock full of tired catchphrases. It's fairly common knowledge on this forum, between people who understand wrestling, that Cena is above Rock, all around. Each promo that I've seen between Rock and Cena, Rock looks childish and rather foolish. He feels that he has to validate himself as better than John Cena, so he throws up dirty jokes and that same front he has always thrown up. It may have worked in the Attitude Era, but the fact that he still uses it TODAY, is astonishing.
If anything is laughable, it is your attempts at looking smart, when never actually trying to debate ANY of my points. Nice try.
PunkNation26
Most Charismatic Champion Ever!!!!!
It's downright laughable to say Cena is better than Rock. Buildings explode when Rock does the People's Elbow. When Cena goes for the 5 knuckle shuffle, people grunt and moan and get up and go to the concession stand.(alright, I have no proof of that but I'm just trying to make a point). Granting a million wishes to sick kids doesn't make you the best in the world at anything other than being a great human being. Cena may be a great person, but all this elitist smart wrestling fan kissing his ass shit is ridiculous.
And to say Cena promos are all straight from the heart is bullshit too. When Cena does say something real it's usually something corny like "I'll knock the gold out of your teeth, melt it down and sell it to Mr. T". LOL, that's one of the lamest insults ever. Cena may have been a big draw in his career, but he can't carry Rock's jock strap when it comes to actual wrestling.
And no, the Rock isn't the best technical wrestler, but he's innovative, and can entertain and wrestle amazing matches all at the same time. The only appeal to Cena matches are the crowd reactions. Cena's idea of innovation is having his opponent stand bent over for like 30 seconds while he climbs the top rope, gets his balance, and does a leg drop to the back of the head.
That move btw doesn't make him a better wrestler than he was before he started doing it.
And to say Cena promos are all straight from the heart is bullshit too. When Cena does say something real it's usually something corny like "I'll knock the gold out of your teeth, melt it down and sell it to Mr. T". LOL, that's one of the lamest insults ever. Cena may have been a big draw in his career, but he can't carry Rock's jock strap when it comes to actual wrestling.
And no, the Rock isn't the best technical wrestler, but he's innovative, and can entertain and wrestle amazing matches all at the same time. The only appeal to Cena matches are the crowd reactions. Cena's idea of innovation is having his opponent stand bent over for like 30 seconds while he climbs the top rope, gets his balance, and does a leg drop to the back of the head.
That move btw doesn't make him a better wrestler than he was before he started doing it.
And here we go again...
Why do you keep talking about technical wrestling? Have you not learned yet that has nothing to do with being a good wrestler?
One of the dumbest things you've said in this thread. The reason pro wrestling matches exist is for the story they tell in the ring. Andre vs. Hogan told the story, "is Hogan really the greatest in the world? Can he really bodyslam Andre"?. Hogan vs. Warrior told the classic passing of the torch story, from one super hero to the next, with Warrior proving he was Hogan's equal in nearly every way, and just a bit better. Hart vs. Austin told the story of a man (Austin) who got under Hart's skin so much, he completely lost sight of who he was and what he stood for, causing Bret to engage, not in a match, but a street fight, eventually ending with Hart snapping and losing himself for good (at least for good in his WWF run).
That's what pro wrestling is about, it's the story you tell inside the ring. When you watch John Cena matches, he's told some fantastic stories. Of course, you have the classic American match, which Hollywood and the WWE have done to death, where the bad guy takes an advantage so great you think there's no way the good guy can save the day. Which means when the good guy does make his comeback, you're ecstatic with the idea he could win. Sure, Cena has told his fair share of those stories, like every other babyface that has ever worked in the WWE, Austin and Rock included.
But he's told some fantastic stories otherwise as well. His matches vs. RVD, HBK, Lashley, CM Punk, Umaga, etc. all told fascinating and unique stories, but the one I always like to use as the best example is his match vs. HHH at Wrestlemania 22. Do you remember the build for that match? Is was all about the puncher/brawler from Boston against the veteran "wrestler" in Triple H. When the match started, it was Triple H "schooling" Cena with traditional wrestling moves and holds. Then Cena fought back with his fists, in true brawler fashion. And they went back and forth like this, until the end...when John Cena used a drop toehold (classic wrestling move) and slid over to a submission move (STFU) to earn the victory. In that, the brawler beat "the wrestler" using wrestling moves. Fantastic story.
The idea that Cena's matches are only good because of the crowd reactions completely misses the idea the crowd reactions are only good because the match is good. If the match sucked, the crowd wouldn't care.
Of course not. Because moves have nothing to do with being a good pro wrestler. Those who think moves have anything to do with being a good pro wrestler know nothing about pro wrestling.
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