I don't know, Finlay to legacy threw up some pretty gash posts.
First off, if you wanna see Vader take a beating and still win, watch him fight Cactus Jack (in Cactus' prime, no less) at Halloween Havoc in a Texas Death Match and still win. THEN, watch him take on Sting in a White Castle of Fear Strap Match at Superbrawl 3 and understand he suffered multiple lacerations to his back that required stitches, and a ruptured ear drum, which effects balance. And he won that as well, defeating a legend in Sting.
Cactus Jack's prime? I'm not even going to dignify that with a response, except you only need to read any history of Foley or WCW to see that literally nobody within that company saw him as more than a jobber to the stars.
It's not as if Sting dominated that match either, there is a difference between a brutal match and taking a whooping, and this was a case of the former.
Second, are you really giving Big Show the nod in multi-man environments because he's been in Battle Royals? A format which ENCOURAGES guys to stand around and use rest holds, waiting for their turn to do a spot!? This isn't Flair or Backlund lasting an hour plus with several times being alone in the ring. You're saying Big Show smothering a few midcarders while 5-55 other men were in the ring, taking most of the focus off of him resting, is more impressive than Vader winning the IWGP World Heavyweight Championship - a belt you've put over in this tournament - over three other top-tier Japanese stars?
I don't think beating three men in fifteen minutes is any more impressive than The Big Show winning a long battle royal in terms of endurance, and that was my point.Have you ever seen a multi man ladder match? It consists of people biding their time and then striking, and there is certainly nobody who has done that more than Big Show. Andre also win Battle Royales too, but not by biding his time.
Also, Vader had less SHW's to beat. But he went over Bigelow in Japan and Yokozuna in the US, and that's not a bad two-some.
He went over Yokozuna when he was a fat carcass, and you know it. Andre was regularly wrestling Japan when Vader was, and so was Giant Baba. El Gigante was also a superheavyweight, and Vader couldn't beat him either. Big Show has fought and beat every superheavyweight around during his career.
But you're telling me that the ridiculous, farsical "Big Show falls off a building" spot, which everyone knew was ******ed when it happened, gived Wight more credibility than Vader finishing matches with a popped out eye, a lacerated back, a busted ear drum, and winning a Texas Death Match with Cactus Jack? You're WAY off base then.
I'm saying in a ladder match, real or not, surviving a fall is more useful than losing matches whilst injured. Beating Cactus Jack in WCW means jack shit. Beating Mick Foley to a pulp in the WrestleMania of his annus mirablilis means a hell of a lot more.
Finishing a match with injuries is important - look at the massive gash the Big Show had in his match at one night stand last year, but not getting injured is also important. Big Show is probably the only superheavyweight who's knees have remained in good shape throughout his career. He's ony slower because he's fatter than he was.
And please, get your facts straight. The Vader vs Hansen match with the eye injury ended in a no-contest. Vader did not lose that match. I am not keeping anything from anybody - the outcome was a draw, so I did not feel the need to go into that.
Apologies, my Japanese isn't what it ought to be, I assumed based on facial reactions and got it wrong, soz.
My apologies to Tastycles. THIS is now the WORST POST EVER.
Seriously, read Finlay to Legacy, it's a goldmine of arse.
1. Vader once defeated Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, and Steve Austin, ALL in their primes, cleanly by pinfall, in 5 minutes. Now, there's no evidence to support it, but by YOUR logic, that doesn't matter. Who's to say that DIDN't actually happen? Please don't go to law school.
Yeah I can see it now, Hulk Hogan WrestleMania III, Vader slammed him, hit the leg drop, how we all rejoiced. Then, at WrestleMania X, Bret Hart went to the top rope, then he fell off and Vader pinned him. Then at WrestleMania XV, Vader beat McMahon's lackey, Austin, and we all cheered. No wait, Vader actually beat those guys several years before or after all of those events when they were emphatically not in their primes. Hogan even had two primes, and Vader didn't beat him in either.
Big Show DID beat nWo prime Hogan as well as Page, Undertaker, Kane, Khali, The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar all in their prime periods.
2. Yes, intelligent strategy in an over-the-top-rope, 60-man match. When you've got 3 men and no rules, there's no option to conserve your energy, because if you try, there's a good chance you'll miss a step and lose a ladder match. I love your logic here - "Big Show is a pussy, so you should vote for him." Vader doesn't need to conserve energy - he just goes out and wins.
Have you ever seen a Money in the Bank ladder match? I have, and it certainly isn't 6 guys fucking mincing through each other, it is basically two men in the ring and someone waiting on the outside to come in. Look at the match this year, Kofi Kingston and Mark Henry worked probably the longest periods of the match, but neither of them were anywhere near the finish. Good things come to those who wait.
To me...this goes down to Big Show and Vader (as apparently it does for many others, as well).
I'm not really sure, but Andre just doesn't seem right here.
With the Big Show...you have the most athletic big man I have ever seen in the ring. In his early days...he was lean and devastating...he got fat, then showed that he could overcome it by dropping mucho pounds. He's boxed, he's done sumo...he's quite the well-rounded performer.
Tru dat.
With Vader...he's menacing and stiff to be sure...but what makes me put him in this conversation is one man:
He is a contemporary Vader, and by far...he was the highlight of this year's MITB Ladder Match. He stole the show in that one much like Morrison did in last year's. So...Vader definitely has the goods to be competitive in this environment.
This is a very interesting point, but look who at the end of the match were on the top of the ladder: CM Punk, Christian and Kane. Now, ignore Christian and Punk as they have nothing in common with these guys at all, and you have Kane. Look at Kane's physique now, and see that it is essentially a 7/8th scale model of Big Show circa 1998, and he was far closer to winning than Mark Henry, and it was only the flexibility of a smaller man that prevented him from doing so. Vader or Andre can't do to Show what Punk did to Kane, so I think, Big Show is looking good there.
I'm still not sure, however. I'm leaning towards Big Show...but I could be swayed.
Weeellllllll, vote for Big Show.
You should have voted Vader.
No, he shouldn't.
Andre and Show were about the same size, so The Big Show would also have some trouble shuffling up a ladder.
No they weren't. Look at the Giant in 1996, look at Andre when he was leanest in about 1976, they don't have the same physique. Paul Wight is huge, but he had his pituitary gland removed, so he didn't suffer from gigantism in adulthood like Andre.
You should be ashamed for even bringing that up. When that happened Vader was already past his prime and just wasn't the same Vader from Japan and WCW. If that is all you think Vader is then you need to go to youtube and see some of his earlier work, and hopefully you would think differently because Vader is no one's goon.
WCW was crap when Vader was there. As soon as Flair came back, he went down the card. His work was against nobodies, apart from Sting, who he beat and who beat him.
How does strength matter when you are in a match where anything goes? So what if he is stronger than Vader, all Vader needs to do to guarantee himself the win is take out Big Show and Andre with weapons, his opponents could do the same but like I said in the previous round, Vader was a tough SOB and he was a beast without the need of weapons. Just imagine what he would be with the use of any weapon.
Have you ever seen The Big Show be taken out with weapons for along time? I haven't, it's important.
But Vader has won titles in 3 continents. That is something that may seem easy to do but in reality it's a hard thing to do. It is easier to win the top title in the 3 biggest promotions of North America, but way harder to win the top titles in promotions in 3 different continents.
He won a shit title in Mexico that nobody gave a rats arse about, and he hardly ever defended it. The WCW title was being contested by Ron Simmons, Cactus Jack, not to forget that the NWA title and International Heavyweight Championship belt was also being contested on its shows when Vader won it. The WWF title was being contested by Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart and Randy Savage. I know which one I think is the top title.So, yeah, he won the title in Japan.
Strength really only matters when it is a straight up one on one match with no stipulation. Since this match is a ladder match and anything goes then Big Show's strength won't matter much because Vader can easily negated with the use of weapons.
Tell that to Razor Ramon, who won the most famous ladder math of all time by out powering Shawn Michaels.
Also you showed a video of WWF Vader. That is arguably the worst Vader has ever been and it wasn't his fault, because he was good. Vince didn't know how to use Vader and it shows if you compare Vader's work in WCW and Japan to his work in the WWF. I would take that video more seriously if it was in Japan or WCW.
IC25 has shown Vader in WWF matches, it's only fair we do too. It's funny that The Big Show supporters don't have to say a three year period doesn't count, because he's never been irrelevant for that long.
First off, I want to apologize to everyone who feels insulted by my "Worst Post Ever" comments. I of course do not mean them. And Tastycles isn't capable of a bad post anyway. He's too awesome of a poster.
I see you've read Finlay to Legacy.
But the fact remains - Big Show is not as good as Vader, not as versatile as Vader, not as agile as Vader, not as fast as Vader, not as brutal as Vader, not as experienced as Vader, and has not been as successful as Vader.
Well he is faster, he is better and he is probably less agile. He's not as brutal, but he's brutal enough, and he's fought more ladder matchesand, by your own admission, more super heavyweights than Vader, so how the fuck is he less experienced?
Will asked me to examine one of Big Show's "other" title reigns besides the abysmal WWF Title reign that saw him defend against the Big Bossman. Let's look at Show's title reigns.
1. WCW World Heavyweight Title. Won it after Jimmy Hart interfered to help Hulk Hogan in a match that was LATER explained to be a match in which the title could change hands on a DQ. "The Giant" was stripped of the belt one week later, and did not regain it when he had the chance at World War 3. He then entered a feud with...The Lochness Monster. Title reign #1 later 8 days.
Well, you could also add that he beat Hogan in his debut match, the only man in history who can say that, and in addition the fact that he was the first person to beat Hogan for the WCW title, and the fact that he ended Hogans record breaking 469 day reign. Pretty fucking impressive, if you ask me.
2. WCW World Heavyweight Title #2. Thismay be his decent reign. He beat Flair for the belt, and the reign lasted 110 days this time. He dropped it to Hogan in less than 3 months
He also beat Sting and Lex Luger, quite a good reign indeed.
3. WWF Championship #1. This was the reign I references. He won the belt in a Triple Threat Match that he shouldn't have even been in, with HHH and The Rock. Right place, right time. The reign lasted 50 days - less than 2 months, and featured the amazing Big Bossman feud. Oh baby. Yes, sarcasm.
Right place right time? Right, because 1999 WWF was famously barren of talent. Come on, he may have only feuded with Boss Man, but he was booked as a dominant champion throughout, but probably his weaest reign, granted.
4. WWF Championship #2. Show beat Brock Lesnar for the WWE Title when Paul Heyman turned on Brock Lesnar and decided to manage Show instead. This reign lasted a whopping 28 days before he lost to Kurt Angle before going on to be dominated in feuds with Lesnar and The Undertaker.
But he beat Brock Lesnar. Lesnar was the future of the business then, and it was his first pinfall loss. The fact that the Rock, The Undertaker and Hogan all failed to do it should show the significance of this victory.
5. ECW Championship #1. Actually not a bad reign. Despite being on "The 'C' Show," Wight held his title for 152 days before losing to Bobby Lashley. Of course, his title win was over Rob Van Dam, and occured when Paul Heyman interfered AGAIN. But still, he was a god ECW Champ, I thought.
Right, so another good reign. In my estimation that's 4 out of 5, 3 out of 3 of Vader's WCW title reigns were lame, and his UWF reign was pretty much none existant. Even taking his Japan reigns into account, that's a higher percentage of shit reigns.
Let's also list Wight's Wrestling Observer Awards. Okay, Rookie of the year in '96. Worst feud of the year in 1999 vs The Big Bossman. Worst wrestler for 2 years straight in 2001 and 2002, and "Most Embarassing Wrestler" in 2002. Way to go, Paul.
If we're taking meaningless awards into consideration, then lets look at the PWI awards. Show, won Wrestler of the year in 1996, Vader won it in 1993. Show also won best rookie. So 2-1, Paul Wight wins.
Everyone, PLEASE face facts - Paul Wight is pedestrian, at best. He isn't the three-continent legend that Vader is, and he never will be. He's quasi-entertaining, but playing the "monster heel" he's just failing to play the role Vader played so well for so long.
VOTE VADER.
Vader isn't a three continent legend, he's a one continent legend. Nobody gives a toss in Mexico about him, and I sincerely doubt he'd be considered a legend based on his US work, where he's certainly acheived less than Paul Wight.
WOW. Just wow. I mean, what kind of argument is that? His ARMS are too short? Now, PYT, you're a great poster, but this. This just doesn't set well with me. Vader's arms are short, but not to the point of hindering him climbing a damn ladder. He's got a gut, but it's what is known as a 'work gut'. See, the man's built like a machine. He does have a gut, but the man's in great shape and was a football player. If any two superstars couldn't climb the ladder, it would be Show and Andre.
A mechanics lesson for you. Imagine a ladder. Now imagine the Giant, Paul Wight. His weight was distributed evenly accross his body and he would be able to reach from lower down the ladder. Vader's weight is concentrated in his belly, which is higher than his legs. He would be standing higher on the ladder, so he will have a higher centre of gravity. This means he's less stable on the ladder, which means he'll be more likely to fall from the ladder than Big Show. These things need to be considered. Well, not really, but it is a factor.
Vader wins because he's tougher, stronger, and can CLIMB THE LADDER. Ugh.
Not stronger, and the other two can probably climb a ladder.
Andre, while dominant in his day, just seems to be out of his element here. Well, I guess to be honest, all three guys are somewhat out of their element. However, the Big Show and Vader have considerably more experience in gimmick matches than Andre. Hell, Andre himself was the gimmick in all his matches. His overwhelming size and strength were something that simply wasn't seen very often. While it's still not seen very often at all even today, just think of how freaked out some fan would be circa 1970 after seeing him in Madison Square Garden for the first time.
Andre did it first, Big Show did it better, and guys like Vader brought something else to the fray. Andre acheived by being it first.
Andre was someone who, for the most part, could physically dominate just about anybody he wanted to, no matter the circumstances. A good reason why is because most of the guys he went up against had nowhere near the strength to handle him if he'd decided to go stiff on someone. That wouldn't be the case here. Show is someone that's pretty much the same size as Andre when they were both in their prime, so he's simply not gonna overwhelm Show with his size.
Exactly.
Vader is is just a strong, stiff mother fucker, always has been. Vader is a powerlifter, he doesn't have the super cut physique of a bodybuilder. He trains to be able to lift tremendous amounts of weight and toss it around if he needs to. I think Vader pulls this off. He has more "hardcore" experience, he's stiff and, to be completely honest, he doesn't seem to give a shit about the safety of his opponents. He doesn't care if he breaks some guy's neck, arm or back. While Show and Andre would be concerned with protecting themselves and each other, I can honestly see Vader picking his moment to deliver a few stiff shots guaranteed to give him the win, or at least keep the two 7 footers stunned long enough for him to get up the ladder.
I don't see why Vader's inability to care for his opponent is going to help him here. Most of the time he injured people it was with big power moves which he wouldn't be able to do on these guys anyway.
Vader in his prime was also managed by arguably the greatest thinking man's heel in wrestling history, Harley Race. Race will be at ringside, and if Show tries to be a pussy and run to the outside to let Vader and Andre destroy each other, rest assured Race will yell that to both men.
Right, well The Big Show in his prime has had the following in his corner: Kevin Sullivan's stable, the nWo, The Corporation, The Union. I fancy those guys could probably oust Race between them, and Bobby Heenan for that matter.
Actually, Race will probably just yell it to Andre, so Andre goes out to throw Show back in, allowing Vader the chance to rest.
Then Ken Shamrock, of the Union and Corporation could go and put Vader in the ankle lock, like he's done before, and mke him bitch out, like he's done before. Interference arguments are ridiculous, but Big Show has certainly got the advantage in that department if you want to try and go there.
Folks, before I continue this ridiculous conversations about the physics of these three men climbing a ladder (which is markedly similar to, you know, stairs), I want to also remind you that part of this match deals with who is able to punish his opponents to the point of incapacitation, enable them to climb the ladder.
Just about every ladder match I have ever seen ends with at least two of the participants on the ladder before one is pushed off, or taken off with the ladder. The most stable guy on the ladder is likely to succeed, and that is Big show, due to his lower centre of gravity.I don't much like the argument, but if you want to have it, those are the facts.
Now, with Vader, you have a man who beat Cactus Jack within and inch of his life at Halloween Havoc in a Texas Death Match - and won - and whipped Sting so bad in their White Castle of Fear Strap Match that Sting couldn't come back and defeat the big man. You also have a man who took out Yokozuna by placing his leg on the bottom rope and snapping it like a twig using a splash.
I'm not even going to address how insignificant beating Foley is again, he beat Sting, yeah, but Sting beat him a few weeks later, Yokozuna was poo and came back about two months later, meaning it wasn't the best leg break of all time exactly. These are weak ass and lame.
People counter this with the fact that Show was a short-term champion in a watered-down version of the ECW?
Beating foley to a point where he is incapacitated is pretty damn impressive, in my opinion, as is coming back from the fall, all relevant to his tenacity.
Folks, everything about this match goes in Vader's favor.
Big Show's favour, everything goes in Big Show's favour.
Bollocks.Show me Vader tip a jeep and we'll have this conversation again.
Offense - Vader, for the reasons listed above. I'll take one of the three best powerbombs ever, a middle rope springboard splash and a top rope moonsault from a 450-pounder above a choke slam anyday.
I'd take a right hnd that knocked out the Undertaker over a powerbomb, which Vader definitely couldn't do here, a moonsault which is just about the easiest move in history to counter and a splash anyday.
Defense - Vader. Between surviving (and defeating) Cactus Jack and Sting in brutal gimmick matches, and drawing Stan Hansen after his eye popped out, and the fact that Vader has missed the splash and moonsault before and recovered quickly, Vader will be able to withstand FAR more than the other two men.
Big Show destroyed Mankind, Vader survived against a shitter era of Foley. He's never broken down injured in a match ever, you can't hold not being prone to injury over him.
Agility - Vader, of course.
I've already expressed my doubts about this one.
Intelligence - A three-time WCW World Champion, three-time All-Japan Pro Triple Crown Champion, 3-time New Japan Pro World Champion, and 1-time UWA World Champion (defeating legendary lucha El Canek IN MEXICO) with Harley Race as his manager vs The Big Show, who let himself get knocked out twice by Floyd Mayweather.
No, he didn't beat Canek IN MEXICO did he?!? El Canek who made a career of losing IN MEXICO to foreigners then beating them much later. Like in this instance. The Big Show got knocked out by a boxer? SHIT THE BED! And he didn't even get knocked out twice, as I recall. If winning world titles makes you smart, then why is it that big dumb lummox Sid Vicious is a multiple time world champion and Jake Roberts has won fuck all? The guy duped the Undertaker, something very few, if anyone has ever managed. He lured Angle up a ledge to injure him. He's anything but stupid.
Do I even need to list Vader's PWI and Wrestling Observer Awards?
1993 - PWI Wrestler of the Year and Wrestling Observer Wrestler of the Year, Best Heel, and Best Maneuver (moonsault).
1999 - Most Improved Wrestler (the second coming!)
1996 - Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame Inductee
These awards are bullshit, and Big Show has won wrestler of the year and rookie of the year from both anyway. Vader was runner up in most hated, as in best heel, and I have never heard of Best manoeuvre in that publication.
Folks, Vader was BUILT for a match like this. Vote for Big Van Vader, or Mr. Feeny will give you detention.
The laws of physics imply he most certainly wasn't built for a match like this.
Jake, you hush up now.
I'll respond to your silly conjecture (classic Jake, though) with the simple fact that Vader has had to take time off because of discipline, whereas Show had to take time off because he was out of shape. Sure, Vader is fat. But he could still perform at a ridiculously high level despite his weight. He didn't break down, get fatigued, etc. Show had to be taken off TV because of his weight issues. He was fatter than Vader was.
Big Show was fat when he was shit. If we look at Vader when he was good, we can see he was still fat. If we look at Big Show/The Giant when he was good, he was huge but not fat.
And if you argue that Show in his 1995 WCW prime wasn't that fat, I'll remind you that Vader in his 1992-93 WCW prime wasn't either. And if you take his prime as New Japan Pro, he was in even better shape.
Except he was.
That is a fat man.
That is not.
Poor Andre can't win a round.
I wish he was doing better, I feel sorry for him.
