10 years on Montreal Screwjob

[jericho3150]

Because a company completely and deliberately screwed the biggest draw the company had had the last 5 years. We can argue all you want, but numbers don't lie, and Bret did much more for the WWF in the 90's then Shawn Michaels did, no matter what WWE Re-visionist thinking will tell you. Bret Hart is more over then Michaels ever was world wide. I know Kliqsters have a hard time believing that, but that is fact.

Bret did much more for the WWF in the 90's??? Wow again if thats what you need to believe... As someone has already said you seem to think that when someone is the champ that is the only time anyone is tuning in to see them.. Bret had a pretty sweet time on top with a great undercard... Shawn was towing the boat by himself... As Mick Foley said before WCW was having great undercard matches and the main events didn't deliver and WWF had mainevents that brought down the house and a terrible undercard... Bret NEVER had the whole company on his back the way Shawn did. Also Bret has quite a few great matches in the 90's... and Shawn helped change the entire business from the brutalness of the ladder match to the edgyness of the attitude era was alot of what shawn set the groundwork for,,, So as far as doing more for WWF in the 90's I'd say Shawn wins that one..Shawn was a pioneer of the attitude era and Bret fought against it...and lost.

And Bret not being the legend we think he is? The proof is in the pudding, if you didn't see his HoF induction, then you need to watch it. If you didn't hear the pop he got in Montreal when Michaels teased his return, you need to find it. Bret transcends the business, guys like Michaels and Triple H will only be known for wrestling.

I think he has be hugely overrated in terms of impact on the industry but I will admit he was a legendary storyteller and performer. I also feel that it's a shame that his choices he made in his last days with WWF now almost seem to define his entire career... had he simply done what was right for the company that gave him everything he's ever wanted ..money..fame...ect... we would be talking about his great matches and not just one night...

 

[reddevil69]

Bret did much more for the WWF in the 90's??? Wow again if thats what you need to believe... As someone has already said you seem to think that when someone is the champ that is the only time anyone is tuning in to see them.. Bret had a pretty sweet time on top with a great undercard... Shawn was towing the boat by himself... As Mick Foley said before WCW was having great undercard matches and the main events didn't deliver and WWF had mainevents that brought down the house and a terrible undercard... Bret NEVER had the whole company on his back the way Shawn did. Also Bret has quite a few great matches in the 90's... and Shawn helped change the entire business from the brutalness of the ladder match to the edgyness of the attitude era was alot of what shawn set the groundwork for,,, So as far as doing more for WWF in the 90's I'd say Shawn wins that one..Shawn was a pioneer of the attitude era and Bret fought against it...and lost.




I think he has be hugely overrated in terms of impact on the industry but I will admit he was a legendary storyteller and performer. I also feel that it's a shame that his choices he made in his last days with WWF now almost seem to define his entire career... had he simply done what was right for the company that gave him everything he's ever wanted ..money..fame...ect... we would be talking about his great matches and not just one night...

i don't see how you figure Bret was overrated for his impact..he was the guy that opened the doors for the smaller guys in WWF...i'm sure if it wasn't him it would have been someone else, but the fact is it was him....he was the first 'smaller' guy in the land of the giants that was given the title and he was, without question having the best match consistently on the card from 1991-1994...as good as shawn was, he did not reach his peak as a singles wrestler until 1994....in fact Shawn's best match up to that point was against Bret at Survivor Series 1992...Shawn's match with Hennig at Summerslam 1993 was nowhere near as good as Bret's with Hennig at King of the Ring just two months earlier.....Shawn has said it himself that Bret was responsible for proving to the office that size was not what mattered and that Bret was the reason guys like himself started getting bigger pushes....you can argue all day long about who was the better performer, but you cannot argue that Bret did not have a large impact on the way the industry was going in the early 90's....and Bret's undercard in 1993-94 was nothing to write home about either, so let's stop with the Shawn had to go it alone stuff...Taker was gone for 8 months in 1994, Shawn was just starting to really take off, and Diesel still had not come into his own until the fall of that year....Bret and Owen's feud was the hottest thing going in 1994...Vince pushed his own American made Lex Luger to the moon and the fans still wanted Bret, the Canadian wrestler, who apparently couldn't draw in the USA....just an observation: would you or would you not agree that at that in 1996, with Shawn dancing around and wearing the long dangly earings,the Rob Halford(gay singer for Judas Priest)leather cap, posing for Playgirl and wearing a belly-button ring, that he was out of favor with the male wrestling fans of the ages of 18 and up?....i know girls loved him and boys from 10-15, but don't you think the glam rock persona may have been a factor in some of the male audience turning to WCW and the drop in house show attendance?...i'm not questioning his ring work, i'm just wondering if his image was out of place in an industry dominated by big,tough men....i don't think many blue collar wrestling fans got off on Shawns image....i know Bret wore pink, but he came across as a tough, no-nonsense guy...centering the company around a 'pretty boy' may have backfired here...do you not think this was one of the factors for 1996 being a poor year for the WWF?....and as far as Bret's impact in America, you cannot deny that Wrestling with Shadows was aired on A&E, an american network...it drew higher ratings than'The Unreal Story of Pro Wrestling" documentary, aired earlier that same year on the same network....also, the Simpsons could have chose any wrestler WWF or WCW to appear on the show, they chose Bret, because his name and face were familiar to people who were not necessarily wrestling fans....

 

[jericho3150]

i don't see how you figure Bret was overrated for his impact..he was the guy that opened the doors for the smaller guys in WWF...i'm sure if it wasn't him it would have been someone else, but the fact is it was him....he was the first 'smaller' guy in the land of the giants that was given the title and he was, without question having the best match consistently on the card from 1991-1994

Ummm... Not really. Before Bret we had Flair and Randy Savage in the main event scene. Bret was a shorter guy compared to many but he also was roided out at that point too...

...as good as shawn was, he did not reach his peak as a singles wrestler until 1994....in fact Shawn's best match up to that point was against Bret at Survivor Series 1992...Shawn's match with Hennig at Summerslam 1993 was nowhere near as good as Bret's with Hennig at King of the Ring just two months earlier.....

I agree 100% Shawn didn't take over as one of the top tier workers til 94 although he was involved in the MOTY for 93 vs Jannetty.. and one of the biggest disappointments in Shawns career is Shawns match with Mr Perfect should have been a lot better.. He was slow and his timing was kinda off...and he was just..... FAT.

and Bret's undercard in 1993-94 was nothing to write home about either, so let's stop with the Shawn had to go it alone stuff...Taker was gone for 8 months in 1994, Shawn was just starting to really take off, and Diesel still had not come into his own until the fall of that year....Bret and Owen's feud was the hottest thing going in 1994...Vince pushed his own American made Lex Luger to the moon and the fans still wanted Bret, the Canadian wrestler, who apparently couldn't draw in the USA....

Bret Hart.. Owen Hart.. Shawn Michaels.. Hulk Hogan (part of 93) Lex Luger.. Ric Flair..Mr Perfect .. Davey Boy Smith..Undertaker..Razor Ramon.. Headshrinkers..Steiner Bros.. Money Inc..Natural Disasters..Crush..Yokozuna..Randy Savage..Bam Bam Bigalow..Tatanka..123 Kid..Jeff Jarrett..Jerry Lawler..Rick Martel.. Diesel (came in fall of 93)

Doesn't sound too bad to me...

just an observation: would you or would you not agree that at that in 1996, with Shawn dancing around and wearing the long dangly earings,the Rob Halford(gay singer for Judas Priest)leather cap, posing for Playgirl and wearing a belly-button ring, that he was out of favor with the male wrestling fans of the ages of 18 and up?....i know girls loved him and boys from 10-15, but don't you think the glam rock persona may have been a factor in some of the male audience turning to WCW and the drop in house show attendance?...i'm not questioning his ring work, i'm just wondering if his image was out of place in an industry dominated by big,tough men....i don't think many blue collar wrestling fans got off on Shawns image....i know Bret wore pink, but he came across as a tough, no-nonsense guy...centering the company around a 'pretty boy' may have backfired here...do you not think this was one of the factors for 1996 being a poor year for the WWF?....

I would not agree.. Shawn always had some..questionable ring attire but the thing that got people to turn was the fact that HBK hooked us being a cocky arrogant heel and then WWF slowly turned him from being a great heel to a white bread hero. He lost all the edginess that made the fans love him in the first place. And what you always seem to overlook as far as factors in the ratings drop...is you went from a show were the top stars were Shawn.. Bret.. Taker..Diesel.. Razor.. and then within a couple months you just had Shawn and sometimes Taker..

They learned from their mistakes with Austin... Imagine Austin turned into the whitebread hero that Michaels was made to play to appeal more to the kids.. The problem was that they changed Shawns character..

also, the Simpsons could have chose any wrestler WWF or WCW to appear on the show, they chose Bret, because his name and face were familiar to people who were not necessarily wrestling fans....

They picked Bret because he was one of the top stars in the biz..I feel maybe in Canada he transends wrestling but not in the states... Austin Rock and Hogan do but people like HBK Hart and Flair you kinda have to have at least once been a fan to know who these people are... I don't know if Bret was selected for a reason but I'll ask... (I know most of the Simpsns peeps)

 

[reddevil69]

Ummm... Not really. Before Bret we had Flair and Randy Savage in the main event scene. Bret was a shorter guy compared to many but he also was roided out at that point too...




I agree 100% Shawn didn't take over as one of the top tier workers til 94 although he was involved in the MOTY for 93 vs Jannetty.. and one of the biggest disappointments in Shawns career is Shawns match with Mr Perfect should have been a lot better.. He was slow and his timing was kinda off...and he was just..... FAT.



Bret Hart.. Owen Hart.. Shawn Michaels.. Hulk Hogan (part of 93) Lex Luger.. Ric Flair..Mr Perfect .. Davey Boy Smith..Undertaker..Razor Ramon.. Headshrinkers..Steiner Bros.. Money Inc..Natural Disasters..Crush..Yokozuna..Randy Savage..Bam Bam Bigalow..Tatanka..123 Kid..Jeff Jarrett..Jerry Lawler..Rick Martel.. Diesel (came in fall of 93)

Doesn't sound too bad to me...




I would not agree.. Shawn always had some..questionable ring attire but the thing that got people to turn was the fact that HBK hooked us being a cocky arrogant heel and then WWF slowly turned him from being a great heel to a white bread hero. He lost all the edginess that made the fans love him in the first place. And what you always seem to overlook as far as factors in the ratings drop...is you went from a show were the top stars were Shawn.. Bret.. Taker..Diesel.. Razor.. and then within a couple months you just had Shawn and sometimes Taker..

They learned from their mistakes with Austin... Imagine Austin turned into the whitebread hero that Michaels was made to play to appeal more to the kids.. The problem was that they changed Shawns character..




They picked Bret because he was one of the top stars in the biz..I feel maybe in Canada he transends wrestling but not in the states... Austin Rock and Hogan do but people like HBK Hart and Flair you kinda have to have at least once been a fan to know who these people are... I don't know if Bret was selected for a reason but I'll ask... (I know most of the Simpsns peeps)

Savage and Flair were never considered small guys or guys that could not carry a championship...you never heard anyone refer to them as being to small to be at the top, like many said about Bret....they also were so over the top with charisma, people thought they were larger than life...Bret made wrestling the focal point again... what about the Wrestling with shadows special introducing Bret to a whole new audience in america....the major demographic for A & E at that time was ages 35-75.....i think Bret has made a mark outside the wrestling industry..my 82 year old italian grandmother knows who he is, along with hogan and Rock......she couldn't tell you who Ric Flair or shawn michaels are...and i think that there was more than just shawn's attire that turned people off...i used to work at a car manufacturing plant and good way to get heat was to wear an HBK shirt circa 1996...believe me, i've heard some nasty things said to a guy that wore that stuff and seen some lousy ribs pulled as well....i'm just stating facts as i witnessed them....i don't think older males dug that incarnation of HBK...

 

[jericho3150]

Savage and Flair were never considered small guys or guys that could not carry a championship...you never heard anyone refer to them as being to small to be at the top, like many said about Bret....they also were so over the top with charisma, people thought they were larger than life...Bret made wrestling the focal point again..

Right and people didn't really think Bret was small either...Bret Hart billed as 6'1 231lbs... Flair at 6'1 230lbs... Macho man 6'2 248lbs HBK was billed as 6'1 230-225lbs... Now those are 4 top guys being billed around the same size. And of course these weren't accurate but enough where they could all be billed at basically the same size without anyone thinking something was wrong..

Maybe he there had been small top guys with charisma and mic skills and big guys who made it to the top with no mic skills.. maybe bret was the first smaller guy to make it to the top without the help of charisma or mic skills??

he major demographic for A & E at that time was ages 35-75.....i think Bret has made a mark outside the wrestling industry..my 82 year old italian grandmother knows who he is, along with hogan and Rock......she couldn't tell you who Ric Flair or shawn michaels are...and i think that there was more than just shawn's attire that turned people off...i used to work at a car manufacturing plant and good way to get heat was to wear an HBK shirt circa 1996...believe me, i've heard some nasty things said to a guy that wore that stuff and seen some lousy ribs pulled as well....i'm just stating facts as i witnessed them....i don't think older males dug that incarnation of HBK...

I know you like Bret but to even put him in the same league as Rock Hogan or Austin is a joke... What the hell would a non wrestling fan know bret from?? Lonesome dove?? That show was watched by about 3.5 hundred people a week...

And as male fans I agree..the face HBK became too boring and they stripped him of everything he did to win the fans over in the first place...

 

[reddevil69]

Right and people didn't really think Bret was small either...Bret Hart billed as 6'1 231lbs... Flair at 6'1 230lbs... Macho man 6'2 248lbs HBK was billed as 6'1 230-225lbs... Now those are 4 top guys being billed around the same size. And of course these weren't accurate but enough where they could all be billed at basically the same size without anyone thinking something was wrong..

Maybe he there had been small top guys with charisma and mic skills and big guys who made it to the top with no mic skills.. maybe bret was the first smaller guy to make it to the top without the help of charisma or mic skills??



I know you like Bret but to even put him in the same league as Rock Hogan or Austin is a joke... What the hell would a non wrestling fan know bret from?? Lonesome dove?? That show was watched by about 3.5 hundred people a week...

And as male fans I agree..the face HBK became too boring and they stripped him of everything he did to win the fans over in the first place...

Bret was still not considered in the same class as Savage and Flair at that time, regardless of his actual size...he was not perceived as a top guy and in wrestling perception is everything...that's a direct quote from Vince McMahon...yes, Bret made it to the top and stayed there by being a great wrestler...his mic skills were as good as they needed to be...Vince did not put the strap on him 5 times because he was not a draw and couldn't work the mic, but as far as the past champs, Bret did not have the charisma or mic skills that were seen as being neccessary at the time...i wasn't putting him in the same league as Austin or hogan and Rock....he was obviously not as big a name as them, but he still has more notoriety outside of wrestling than alot of other guys...once again, Wrestling With Shadows was seen by a large non-wrestling audience...it was just re-broadcast this past weekend on public television 3 times....there are not many guys that have that kind of promotional tool working for them...he was also voted athlete of the year in Germany 3 years in a row...not wrestler, athlete...that means in a country of 170,000,000 people his profile was raised ten times that of any other wrestler at the time because it was an honor that encompassed all sports figures, not just wrestling....i lived in Germany for a time, i've seen it first-hand...if you read Bret's book you would also know that when he wrestled in Spain and the Phillipines that there were huge billboards all over the city promoting the WWF being there and Bret was the guy who was on all of them...people that commuted to work and were not wrestling fans saw these billboards and know who Bret was because of that...the same way that i've never seen an episode of Heroes, but because of the billboards all over my city, and in the subways, i know who Masa Oka is, i see his face everywhere....you seem to forget that there is a world outside the USA and Bret was the top international star for WWF in the 1990's and that is a fact...the only other guy that was on the same level outside the USA between 1992 and 1997 was the Undertaker....and if you agree about the HBK image of that era, than you have to acknowledge that it was a factor in his poor drawing power...you can't just blame it on the undercard...that was still the time when the champ was the focal point of the company and the pretty boy, glam rock version of HBK turned off alot of traditional fans...i just bought the new HBK dvd and HHH says it himself that shawn looked like the cop from the Village People....that is not a compliment
and it worked against him...that does in no way diminish his ability...when the bell rang, he was off the charts, no question...i just do not agree when people say he did more for the business and had greater impact than Bret because it's not true....he's an icon now because he's had 5 years in the spotlight since returning and has clearly been the best performer consistently...if Bret had never left, he would have probably wrestled until about 2002(his own words) and we probably would have seen him work with Angle,Jericho,Lesnar,Benoit,Guererro, and the Rock during those years, and they would have been great matches no doubt and nobody would be questioning his impact....

 

[jericho3150]

Bret was still not considered in the same class as Savage and Flair at that time, regardless of his actual size...he was not perceived as a top guy and in wrestling perception is everything...that's a direct quote from Vince McMahon...yes, Bret made it to the top and stayed there by being a great wrestler...his mic skills were as good as they needed to be...Vince did not put the strap on him 5 times because he was not a draw and couldn't work the mic, but as far as the past champs, Bret did not have the charisma or mic skills that were seen as being neccessary at the time..

What are you talking about?? I those are 2 top guys the same size as Bret and you say he they weren't "concidered" small.. Bret was never really concidered small either unless he was wrestling Yoko or Nash.. Bret was unique because he had to win the crowd over with his wrestling ability alone. He wasn't somebody that was this over the top larger than life characters which was refreshing....

and if you agree about the HBK image of that era, than you have to acknowledge that it was a factor in his poor drawing power...you can't just blame it on the undercard...that was still the time when the champ was the focal point of the company and the pretty boy, glam rock version of HBK turned off alot of traditional fans...i just bought the new HBK dvd and HHH says it himself that shawn looked like the cop from the Village People....that is not a compliment

I know thats what you really want to blame Shawns clothes on his low ratings...And I know you are in complete denial about the fact that Bret had a great undercard draw and Shawn had none.. I feel your very incorrect. The fans didn't turn on Shawns character in 95-96 til he became the cookie cutter face and the fans just got sick of his character.. He wore the same crap he had his entire career.. WCW just had the better edgier product..they had 12+ top level stars.. great middlecards with wrestlers like Jericho..Benoit Guerrero.. Rey. It was the many stars of WCW vs WWF which should have just been called the HBK show..

i just do not agree when people say he did more for the business and had greater impact than Bret because it's not true....he's an icon now because he's had 5 years in the spotlight since returning and has clearly been the best performer consistently...if Bret had never left, he would have probably wrestled until about 2002(his own words) and we probably would have seen him work with Angle,Jericho,Lesnar,Benoit,Guererro, and the Rock during those years, and they would have been great matches no doubt and nobody would be questioning his impact....

Im not saying Bret didn't have great matches... But Shawn helped change the business forever.. He was a founding father of the attiude movement. He pushed the envelope about as far as anyone else ever has on TV. He set a new standard of athletisism inside the ring...

I think part of the reason that Bret still has so much resentment toward hbk even though he's forgiven Vince is that Shawn was the guy that beat him.. Shawn has arguably the greatest legancy in the history of wrestling. The kid who was told his whole career he was too small to be champion and after years of working his ass of he does it.. has his personal problems pill popping jerk.. a historic rivalry with Bret..changes the direction of the biz.. a career ending injury... comes back 4 years later a changed man. new fam.. continues to put on MOTY's and mainevents wrestlemanias to this day.

Brets legacy will be raised in a wrestling family... fought his way to the top..steroids ..coke.. had some great matches...refused to drop the title...got screwed..went to WCW..tragedy..tragedy..tragedy...kicked in the head..divorced..hof speech..the END.

I think he is jealous of Shawns success..

 

[The Dungeon]

Yeah..BRET's jealous!!! That's why Shawn was the one who had to sabotage the man's career! (opinion)

Again...for people to downplay Bret's legacy is a slap in the face!!! And quite frankly you have no business posting here! You're just like Shawn in a way...you fabricated and omit things just like your joke of a post about Bret's legacy!!!!

The greatest legacy?? What are you smoking?? I'm not saying by any means at all that Bret had the greatest legacy...but Shawn????? Noooo!

All you're doing is uplaying Shawn's legacy and downplaying Bret's!!!! Bret's match with Austin as well as feud with him, were major stepping stones to the Attitude Era!!! Bret wasn't around for it, and for the most part neither was Shawn, but along with Austin, 'Taker and others, they were all founding fathers of the Attitude Era!

Had Bret & Shawn not had any heat...I don't think he would've cared about losing to him!!

Shawn's story is a remarkable one granted!!! But if Bret Hart was cleared to wrestle tomorrow, made a comeback, and wrestled matches against Jeff Hardy, M.V.P, Umaga, Finlay, Edge, Matt Hardy, Batista & John Cena, they would all do extremely well, and they'd probably be pretty damn good!!!. Bret also wouldn't over stay his welcome unlike a certain Nature Boy who will remain nameless, as BRet has said time and time again, that's something he would never want to do! Bret's story of a comeback, would be great business for WWE!!!

So in closing..they both had great legacies, but quit trying to downplay one and upplay the other!!

 

[reddevil69]

What are you talking about?? I those are 2 top guys the same size as Bret and you say he they weren't "concidered" small.. Bret was never really concidered small either unless he was wrestling Yoko or Nash.. Bret was unique because he had to win the crowd over with his wrestling ability alone. He wasn't somebody that was this over the top larger than life characters which was refreshing....





I know thats what you really want to blame Shawns clothes on his low ratings...And I know you are in complete denial about the fact that Bret had a great undercard draw and Shawn had none.. I feel your very incorrect. The fans didn't turn on Shawns character in 95-96 til he became the cookie cutter face and the fans just got sick of his character.. He wore the same crap he had his entire career.. WCW just had the better edgier product..they had 12+ top level stars.. great middlecards with wrestlers like Jericho..Benoit Guerrero.. Rey. It was the many stars of WCW vs WWF which should have just been called the HBK show..




Im not saying Bret didn't have great matches... But Shawn helped change the business forever.. He was a founding father of the attiude movement. He pushed the envelope about as far as anyone else ever has on TV. He set a new standard of athletisism inside the ring...

I think part of the reason that Bret still has so much resentment toward hbk even though he's forgiven Vince is that Shawn was the guy that beat him.. Shawn has arguably the greatest legancy in the history of wrestling. The kid who was told his whole career he was too small to be champion and after years of working his ass of he does it.. has his personal problems pill popping jerk.. a historic rivalry with Bret..changes the direction of the biz.. a career ending injury... comes back 4 years later a changed man. new fam.. continues to put on MOTY's and mainevents wrestlemanias to this day.

Brets legacy will be raised in a wrestling family... fought his way to the top..steroids ..coke.. had some great matches...refused to drop the title...got screwed..went to WCW..tragedy..tragedy..tragedy...kicked in the head..divorced..hof speech..the END.

I think he is jealous of Shawns success..

Can you read?....i said Savage and Flair were not seen as guys that could not be champions...quit nit-picking the size issue...NO ONE ever questioned their size and they were seen as being able to carry a company...Bret was not and had to prove himself...and Shawn's image was a factor period...the same way that nobody wanted to listen to Poison and Warrant in the 90's...he lookes like he belonged in a glam band...have you see early pictures of Jericho when he tried to copy shawn?....he looked ridiculous....people wanted ass-kickers not pretty boys....you're going to tell us that in 2007 if HBK danced around like a girl, and had long sparkly earrings and a belly button ring and ass-less chaps, showing of his bum every night that he would be over, at 40 years old?...your dreaming...you'd get your ass kicked walking down the street where i'm from looking like that...and i'll say it again: Shawn preaches the straight and narrow now, and won't do any angles he thinks are too risque, yet he denounced Bret for saying the same stuff 10 years ago...and some christian shawn is, he let his boss make an angle out of mocking god...i'm not religious but i know that there things you just don't do if you're a god-fearing person....and Bret has never admitted to abusing coke, so unless you have concrete proof of that i'd shut up about it....and i concur with Dungeon...if bret was still wrestling i'm sure HHH and HBK would be saying he needs to step aside, but there they are on RAW kissing ass and pandering to Flair who clearly needs to retire so bad it's silly...

 

[jericho3150]

Yeah..BRET's jealous!!! That's why Shawn was the one who had to sabotage the man's career! (opinion)

Again...for people to downplay Bret's legacy is a slap in the face!!! And quite frankly you have no business posting here! You're just like Shawn in a way...you fabricated and omit things just like your joke of a post about Bret's legacy!!!!

The greatest legacy?? What are you smoking?? I'm not saying by any means at all that Bret had the greatest legacy...but Shawn????? Noooo!

All you're doing is uplaying Shawn's legacy and downplaying Bret's!!!! Bret's match with Austin as well as feud with him, were major stepping stones to the Attitude Era!!! Bret wasn't around for it, and for the most part neither was Shawn, but along with Austin, 'Taker and others, they were all founding fathers of the Attitude Era!

Insteadd of just saying "your being unfair" tell me who's legancy is better and why?/ What about Brets didn't I say..What about Shawns did I lye about??

Shawn Michaels HHH and Shane are the ones credited with getting Vince to change the direction of the company... they were the ones who got the ball rolling early on before attitude was "attitude". to claim Bret helped usher in attitude era when there was no one more against the whole change than himself. Attitude era was all about edginess..controversy..sex.. violence.. dark humor... non of those words really bring Bret to mind..

Had Bret & Shawn not had any heat...I don't think he would've cared about losing to him!!

Right.. aaaaaaand I guess that justified Bret in not wanting to do what was best for the company... As much as Bret tries now to make it a respect and something he did for canadians and people all around the world.. it was just a childish dumb mentality..

Shawn's story is a remarkable one granted!!! But if Bret Hart was cleared to wrestle tomorrow, made a comeback, and wrestled matches against Jeff Hardy, M.V.P, Umaga, Finlay, Edge, Matt Hardy, Batista & John Cena, they would all do extremely well, and they'd probably be pretty damn good!!!. Bret also wouldn't over stay his welcome unlike a certain Nature Boy who will remain nameless, as BRet has said time and time again, that's something he would never want to do! Bret's story of a comeback, would be great business for WWE!!!

So in closing..they both had great legacies, but quit trying to downplay one and upplay the other!!

That is a great story... file it under fiction.. The reality is that Bret is a bitter stroke victim.. sorry but true.. He's not coming back and the last thing he ever did in the ring was getting screwed by Vince...

Im not trying to be an asshole but it's certainly not a hollywood storybook ending..it's kind of a downer..

 

[jericho3150]

Can you read?....i said Savage and Flair were not seen as guys that could not be champions...quit nit-picking the size issue...NO ONE ever questioned their size and they were seen as being able to carry a company...Bret was not and had to prove himself...

I can read but your arguement doesn't really make sense... The reason Randy and Ric were "seen" as being able to carry a company was because of there charisma and larger than life persona... Brets size was a complete non issue in questions whether he could carry a company or not..it was his poor mic skills and quite frankly was boring outside the ring..

and Shawn's image was a factor period...the same way that nobody wanted to listen to Poison and Warrant in the 90's...he lookes like he belonged in a glam band...have you see early pictures of Jericho when he tried to copy shawn?....he looked ridiculous....people wanted ass-kickers not pretty boys....you're going to tell us that in 2007 if HBK danced around like a girl, and had long sparkly earrings and a belly button ring and ass-less chaps, showing of his bum every night that he would be over, at 40 years old?...your dreaming...you'd get your ass kicked walking down the street where i'm from looking like that...and i'll say it again

But the problem with your theory is that Shawn did just start doing that in late 96... The fans were white hot for Shawn through 95 and he was wearing and doing the same stuff.. If Shawn persona was what turned off fans then they would have started hating him much sooner than late 96.. and to an extent he still wears gay looking shit today... maybe you just have some homophobic issues you and your buddies from your powerplant or whereever you worked..

Shawn preaches the straight and narrow now, and won't do any angles he thinks are too risque, yet he denounced Bret for saying the same stuff 10 years ago...and some christian shawn is, he let his boss make an angle out of mocking god...i'm not religious but i know that there things you just don't do if you're a god-fearing person....

It's not a right and wrong thing... Shawn was speaking as a 30 year old single guy now he is 40 with kids and his priorities have changed...And as far as the god thing goes I thought the angle was a bit much but then again Shawn is a Christian now.. he's not the infalable pope..

and Bret has never admitted to abusing coke, so unless you have concrete proof of that i'd shut up about it....

And Shawn has never admitted to faking an injury to get out of jobbing to Bret but that doesn't stop you from posting it as fact. Dynamite Kid talks in his book about Bret doing steriods and coke back in the day..

 

[beetle717]

It's not a right and wrong thing... Shawn was speaking as a 30 year old single guy now he is 40 with kids and his priorities have changed...And as far as the god thing goes I thought the angle was a bit much but then again Shawn is a Christian now.. he's not the infalable pope....

I had to add to this, I wouldn't have believed this myself at all if it wasn't for my son, having a kid changes who you are on a fundamental level, the thought will run through your head, what will my son think when he gets older if I do this. It's alot of pressure to know you will be responsible for teaching another human being integrity and will make you a new man. Even with that said, you will still slip up, and you will still make mistakes, as a man you can only try to learn from them.

 

[reddevil69]

I can read but your arguement doesn't really make sense... The reason Randy and Ric were "seen" as being able to carry a company was because of there charisma and larger than life persona... Brets size was a complete non issue in questions whether he could carry a company or not..it was his poor mic skills and quite frankly was boring outside the ring..




But the problem with your theory is that Shawn did just start doing that in late 96... The fans were white hot for Shawn through 95 and he was wearing and doing the same stuff.. If Shawn persona was what turned off fans then they would have started hating him much sooner than late 96.. and to an extent he still wears gay looking shit today... maybe you just have some homophobic issues you and your buddies from your powerplant or whereever you worked..




It's not a right and wrong thing... Shawn was speaking as a 30 year old single guy now he is 40 with kids and his priorities have changed...And as far as the god thing goes I thought the angle was a bit much but then again Shawn is a Christian now.. he's not the infalable pope..



And Shawn has never admitted to faking an injury to get out of jobbing to Bret but that doesn't stop you from posting it as fact. Dynamite Kid talks in his book about Bret doing steriods and coke back in the day..

you just repeated my thoughts on Savage and Flair...thanks for clearing that up...and i never said it was fact about Shawn's knee, but that it is very suspect...i never stated it as fact...and watch your accusations about me being a homophobe, i don't appreciate it...i was making an observation...i happen to work in the music industry and have many peers and friends that are homosexuals and i resent your tone....stick to the topic, don't be taking cheap shots at me....

 

[jericho3150]

and i never said it was fact about Shawn's knee, but that it is very suspect...i never stated it as fact...

But again...why do you even say it was suspect?? b/c Bret told u so?? It just doesn't make sense for someone to fake an injury and lie to EVERYONE... have surgery... go to rehab..miss 3 months of work at a time when they if they didn't wrestle they didn't get paid... missed the big mania mainevent payday all to avoid jobbing to Bret... It's just a ridiculous accusation...

and watch your accusations about me being a homophobe, i don't appreciate it...i was making an observation...i happen to work in the music industry and have many peers and friends that are homosexuals and i resent your tone....stick to the topic, don't be taking cheap shots at me....

I didn't really mean to offend u there but with your severe objections to Shawns outfits and "dancin like a girl" to the "where I grew up someone walking down the street would get their ass kicked" seemed like some serious issues with the mo's...Not a cheap shot but just an observation

 

[reddevil69]

But again...why do you even say it was suspect?? b/c Bret told u so?? It just doesn't make sense for someone to fake an injury and lie to EVERYONE... have surgery... go to rehab..miss 3 months of work at a time when they if they didn't wrestle they didn't get paid... missed the big mania mainevent payday all to avoid jobbing to Bret... It's just a ridiculous accusation...




I didn't really mean to offend u there but with your severe objections to Shawns outfits and "dancin like a girl" to the "where I grew up someone walking down the street would get their ass kicked" seemed like some serious issues with the mo's...Not a cheap shot but just an observation

first of all, it wasn't just Bret who made refrences to Shawn faking his injury...start with Taker,Austin, Vader and Sid if you want proof from other wrestlers thinking the exact same thing, they've all made references in print about this....and as far as Shawn's image in the 90's, it worked when he was a heel because everyone wanted to punch him in the face...that's why he had heat...when they tried to make him 'the guy' to carry the company, and turned him babyface it backfired...it's wrestling, not ballet or dancing with the stars or a rock concert, it's a pre-determined form of entertainment based around combat....with the exception of females, and young boys, people in 1996 still wanted to see wrestlers that they could believe would kick their ass...Diesel was nowhere near the worker HBK was but people took him seriously because he looked like he could crush you...Shawn looked like a guy that a dock worker could beat in a street fight...i was merely stating the fact that blue collar, roughneck, traditional wrestling fans did not grasp Shawn's image...that is how our society is, there are a lot of people who are intolerant to that sort of stuff....you're forgetting that this was before all this internet stuff, and before the fans were smartened up to work rate...now big guys that can't work are frowned upon and little guys like Rey that work hard are applauded...it's the complete reverse...the audience that watches today is vastly different than the one that watched over a decade ago....1996 was a turning point for the direction of the business and for the the fans who watched it... i think Shawn is great but i don't think he was the right guy at the time in 1996 to be the centrepiece for the company, and he obviously was not happy with his title reign either....now with DX we're talking a completley different thing.....2002-2007 is a completely different thing...as good a performer as Shawn was, he was not seen as being as big a star as Bret during the period of 1992-1997, in the eyes of the majority of wrestling fans.....i'm not disputing his legacy today in 2007, after many people have gone back and re-examined his career through dvd, you tube etc....the man was great, no doubt...i would not have purchased his dvd this week if i didn't enjoy his body of work, but 10 years ago, as much as i respected his ring work, i still was put off by alot of the characteristics he portrayed...that's just MY opinion..

 

[The Dungeon]

The following I say is not speaking for everyone, this is one fans observation:

I can honestly say, at 13 years old in 1996, I was a huge Shawn mark, I thought he was extremely entertaining!!!! And still do to this day...

But once I was inching towards 14, I was already growing tiresome of him, and it had nothing to do with ring work or anything like that...bottom line was, Bret had been gone so long, I wanted to see him back in the spotlight!

I understand what reddevil is saying because, my Dad, a blue collar man who works in a factory, used to like wrestling a lot, but when Shawn won the belt at WM12, he said the exact words..."Are you F**king kidding me???". My Dad only maybe watched it a handful of times after that!!!

This is just an observation...I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything!!!

 

[beetle717]

Not that the Dungeon is wrong, I fully expect he is right from his POV, mine is different, in 96 I was 16, and absolutley loved HBK, I have since I was little, especially after the heel turn. I thought he was the most athletically gifted wrestler at the time and the most exciting. His gimmick with the pretty boy thing was hilarious, and even when he went to a straight face it was always great when he came out. For me anyway. When he won at WM12 my whole family including a straight laced blue collar dad marked out, it was great.

But that's just my perspective.

 

[jericho3150]

first of all, it wasn't just Bret who made refrences to Shawn faking his injury...start with Taker,Austin, Vader and Sid if you want proof from other wrestlers thinking the exact same thing, they've all made references in print about this....

But how would any of them know if Shawn was faking an injury?? I've never heard of any of these guys saying he faked his injury... do u have a source?? I have the shoot interviews and they never said that... just wondering where you saw it.. this is simply a case of speculation vs something having a first hand witness.. Dynamite wasn't saying he thinks Bret did coke... He says that he and Bret used to do coke.

and as far as Shawn's image in the 90's, it worked when he was a heel because everyone wanted to punch him in the face...that's why he had heat...when they tried to make him 'the guy' to carry the company, and turned him babyface it backfired...

Have you even watched matches from this era???
HBK vs Jarrett..
Laddermatch II.
HBK winning the rumble...
HBK vs Owen
HBK v Bret Hart..
HBK vs Diesel..
HBK vs BUlldog
HBK vs Mankind..
HBK vs Vader..

Shawn in this "gay persona" was getting huge crowd reactions and tearing down the house... The only time the crowd really completely turned on him was in MSG vs Sid..

Then a month later getting a huge reaction from Texas in front of 60,000 people... and who's more into tuff guys than Texas?? Huge reaction at WM13 for just a guest announcer role.... Huge reaction from Summerslam guest ref spot... even dressed in his short shorts...

Diesel was nowhere near the worker HBK was but people took him seriously because he looked like he could crush you...

What are you talking about?? Please go back and rewatch..or possibly watch for the first time wrestlemania XI.. Please let me know who the crowd was for...?? It's not as cut and dry black or white like you try to make it...

he was not seen as being as big a star as Bret during the period of 1992-1997, in the eyes of the majority of wrestling fans....., i still was put off by alot of the characteristics he portrayed...that's just MY opinion..

Thats fine thats your opinion.. but then you try to validate your opinion by saying "Don't get me wrong Im a Shawn fan" which somehow you believe will make us thing.."jee whiz.. this guy certainly looks at things objectivly" Your a Bret fan which is ok.. but your coming from a ..."this new guy could never carry the torch like MY favorite wrestler" prospective.. then you passivly try to project your opinion on other wrestling fans again trying to validate and justify your opinion... You really seem to forget Bret Hart was around for a good part of the bad ratings too...

 

[The Dungeon]

But how would any of them know if Shawn was faking an injury?? I've never heard of any of these guys saying he faked his injury... do u have a source?? I have the shoot interviews and they never said that... just wondering where you saw it.. this is simply a case of speculation vs something having a first hand witness.. Dynamite wasn't saying he thinks Bret did coke... He says that he and Bret used to do coke.

Thing is though, how do we know Shawn WASN'T??? I mean, if I had a career ending knee injury, I certainly wouldn't be letting Bret Hart, I don't care how safe he is, wrap my knee around a ring post with a figure four!!! Vader has stated in numerous interviews that he believes Shawn Michaels is a "goldbricking asshole". It was a long time ago, I couldnt' tell you where it was from, same with some of the others!.

Have you even watched matches from this era???
HBK vs Jarrett..
Laddermatch II.
HBK winning the rumble...
HBK vs Owen
HBK v Bret Hart..
HBK vs Diesel..
HBK vs BUlldog
HBK vs Mankind..
HBK vs Vader..

Shawn in this "gay persona" was getting huge crowd reactions and tearing down the house... The only time the crowd really completely turned on him was in MSG vs Sid..

Then a month later getting a huge reaction from Texas in front of 60,000 people... and who's more into tuff guys than Texas?? Huge reaction at WM13 for just a guest announcer role.... Huge reaction from Summerslam guest ref spot... even dressed in his short shorts...

Reaction and numbers are two different things!!!! And yeah, he got a huge reaction in his HOMETOWN! Not a hard thing to accomplish!

And why are you listing off his matches??? We all know they were great. Myself nor Reddevil, who happens to be a friend of mine, never dispute that!

The crowd also turned on him during the "I Lost My Smile" speech, and some fans were booing him in 1997, maybe not all fans, but there were a good share of Shawn haters.

What are you talking about?? Please go back and rewatch..or possibly watch for the first time wrestlemania XI.. Please let me know who the crowd was for...?? It's not as cut and dry black or white like you try to make it...

That's because Diesel's push as a babyface was mishandled, they didn't WANT TO SEE the babyface Diesel, they wanted to see the bad ass who would kill you. Nash sucked as a babyface IMO! And the way it was built up, quite poorly I might add, it focused all around Shawn and hardly around Nash, no wonder people started cherring Shawn. But not once did I or anyone else say, Shawn wasn't over as a babyface!

Thats fine thats your opinion.. but then you try to validate your opinion by saying "Don't get me wrong Im a Shawn fan" which somehow you believe will make us thing.."jee whiz.. this guy certainly looks at things objectivly" Your a Bret fan which is ok.. but your coming from a ..."this new guy could never carry the torch like MY favorite wrestler" prospective.. then you passivly try to project your opinion on other wrestling fans again trying to validate and justify your opinion... You really seem to forget Bret Hart was around for a good part of the bad ratings too...

The reason why we're saying all this is b/c you upplay Shawn's legacy and downplay Bret's ALL the time on here, I mean what's the deal??? And for the record, and I know I shouldn't keep speaking for him, but he'll definitely say this, but look at Reddevil's name....who do you think his fav wrestler is?? It's the Undertaker!!!! So don't try to pass off that "favourite wrestler" B.S.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

This thing got so far off topic and turned into an HBK/Hart war that I'm not sure isn't just Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart hiding behind screen names and making fun of each other. Haha jk

 

[reddevil69]

But how would any of them know if Shawn was faking an injury?? I've never heard of any of these guys saying he faked his injury... do u have a source?? I have the shoot interviews and they never said that... just wondering where you saw it.. this is simply a case of speculation vs something having a first hand witness.. Dynamite wasn't saying he thinks Bret did coke... He says that he and Bret used to do coke.




Have you even watched matches from this era???
HBK vs Jarrett..
Laddermatch II.
HBK winning the rumble...
HBK vs Owen
HBK v Bret Hart..
HBK vs Diesel..
HBK vs BUlldog
HBK vs Mankind..
HBK vs Vader..

Shawn in this "gay persona" was getting huge crowd reactions and tearing down the house... The only time the crowd really completely turned on him was in MSG vs Sid..

Then a month later getting a huge reaction from Texas in front of 60,000 people... and who's more into tuff guys than Texas?? Huge reaction at WM13 for just a guest announcer role.... Huge reaction from Summerslam guest ref spot... even dressed in his short shorts...




What are you talking about?? Please go back and rewatch..or possibly watch for the first time wrestlemania XI.. Please let me know who the crowd was for...?? It's not as cut and dry black or white like you try to make it...



Thats fine thats your opinion.. but then you try to validate your opinion by saying "Don't get me wrong Im a Shawn fan" which somehow you believe will make us thing.."jee whiz.. this guy certainly looks at things objectivly" Your a Bret fan which is ok.. but your coming from a ..."this new guy could never carry the torch like MY favorite wrestler" prospective.. then you passivly try to project your opinion on other wrestling fans again trying to validate and justify your opinion... You really seem to forget Bret Hart was around for a good part of the bad ratings too...

Dude...the point is that YOU keep saying i said it was a fact and i never said any such thing....
as far Diesel vs. Shawn at Mania, did you not hear the crowd turn on Shawn towards the end of the match?...same goes for Sid and HBK at the garden in 1996, survivor series...the crowd was booing shawn and cheering sid.... and of course he got a huge pop at summerslam 1997,everyone in America hated Bret because of the anti-american angle...the fans cheered for shawn because 1. He's American and 2. they were hoping he was going to aid Taker in beating Bret...and all those matches you mention that people were popping for were held during a decline in attendance for WWF shows...where did all the fans go?..they didn't all die, they left the product because they did not dig it....i like wrestling so yes i like to watch shawn work, i'm a fan of his work...that does not change the fact that his image put off alot of older fans in 1996...i don't give a shit if you were 13 in 1996, that was not the demographic to which i was referring...yes he was popular with young fans...did you or did you not read what i said about the audience changing?...it is a completely different audience that watches wrestling over the last decade...i know many people that i grew up with that were diehard fans that don't watch it at all now and haven't for a long time,and it's not indigenous to the people i know only....the industry has changed...i was only pointing out that HBK's title run in 1996, which by his, and the WWE's admission, from Vince to Jim Ross, was a disappointment, may have had something to do with positioning him on the top as a babyface, glammy boy, that older males, which made up a vast portion of the WWF audience, would not get behind...why do you keep dodging the issue and twisting my words around....and i'll tell ya somethin else, i have a new shoot interview with Nash from June of this year, and i watched and heard him say that "Shawn always found a way to get time off"...you can read into that all you want, but he's one of Shawn's closet friends to this day and he didn't seem to have any defense for accusations his friend 'faking' an injury...once again I'M not saying he did, i'm saying that sometimes if something looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck....and the sources i have regarding the other names i mentioned, if you read what i posted it says 'in print' which would tend to imply that it was in a publication, not on your shoot dvds...and Taker has never done a shoot so i don't know what shoot you have featuring him...

 

[jericho3150]

Dude...the point is that YOU keep saying i said it was a fact and i never said any such thing....

once again I'M not saying he did, i'm saying that sometimes if something looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck....

Couldn't be a worse analogy. The accusation itself is childish and if you even look at it with some level of objectivity it's just silly... The guy carrying the company of his shoulders for almost a year had a knee injury due to his incredible workrate and schedule.... and then misses months of work... risks losing his top spot while he's gone.. misses out of hundred of thousands of dollars... and his enemy sayes "he just didn't want to face me at wrestlemania" wow.. how was he not found out sooner... HBK guilty...CASE CLOSED you win..

as far Diesel vs. Shawn at Mania, did you not hear the crowd turn on Shawn towards the end of the match?...same goes for Sid and HBK at the garden in 1996, survivor series...the crowd was booing shawn and cheering sid....

I finally figured it out.... At first I gave u the benifit of the doubt but you really don't know about this era... Wrestlemania XI the crowd turned on Diesel not HBK.. thats right.. the crowd turned on big tuff Big Daddy Cool and started cheering long hair ..earring wearing..chap wearing girl dancing Shawn Michaels... Shawn went in the heel and Diesel was the face and the crowd cheered for HBK..

and of course he got a huge pop at summerslam 1997,everyone in America hated Bret because of the anti-american angle...the fans cheered for shawn because 1. He's American and 2. they were hoping he was going to aid Taker in beating Bret...

Oh of course... that wasn't a reaction for Shawn..it was just the antireaction for Bret.... I hope your just grasping at straws and don't really believe that..

and all those matches you mention that people were popping for were held during a decline in attendance for WWF shows...where did all the fans go?..they didn't all die, they left the product because they did not dig it....

Attendance had been slowly dropping for years... pro wrestling was in a major downswing... coming off the boom of the 80's and Hulkamania.. Bret was part of that whole downswing although he and Shawn kept the company afloat.. But wrestling is cyclical... there are highs and lows and both performers experienced both..and as far as where did the fans go?? They went to WCW which was putting out a more fun edgier show with bigger names than Bret and Shawn.. maybe not better workers..but a better total package show... I think your living in this alternate 92-97 fantasy where Bret was Hogans successor drew huge numbers and everything was going just great..and then Bret handed the Belt to Shawn and everything went in the toilet.. Bret came back ratings improved and then Bret invented the attitude era..it just didn't happen that way..

and i'll tell ya somethin else, i have a new shoot interview with Nash from June of this year, and i watched and heard him say that "Shawn always found a way to get time off"...you can read into that all you want, but he's one of Shawn's closet friends to this day and he didn't seem to have any defense for accusations his friend 'faking' an injury...

OK but what context did he say that in?? What was the question?? Was the question about WM 13 or one of his supensions?? Context is everything otherwise your just Michael Moore..

and the sources i have regarding the other names i mentioned, if you read what i posted it says 'in print' which would tend to imply that it was in a publication, not on your shoot dvds...and Taker has never done a shoot so i don't know what shoot you have featuring him...

I was talking about the out of character TSN interview he did in 03.. not really a "shoot" but it was as close as he's ever come to doing a shoot so I lumped it in..

As far as "In print" So I and everyone else should take into concideration the "speculations" of several wrestlers who might have said "something" in "some magazine" because "some Bret fan" says he thinks he remembers them saying it. Strong testimony your honor...strong testimony indeed..

 

[reddevil69]

Couldn't be a worse analogy. The accusation itself is childish and if you even look at it with some level of objectivity it's just silly... The guy carrying the company of his shoulders for almost a year had a knee injury due to his incredible workrate and schedule.... and then misses months of work... risks losing his top spot while he's gone.. misses out of hundred of thousands of dollars... and his enemy sayes "he just didn't want to face me at wrestlemania" wow.. how was he not found out sooner... HBK guilty...CASE CLOSED you win..



I finally figured it out.... At first I gave u the benifit of the doubt but you really don't know about this era... Wrestlemania XI the crowd turned on Diesel not HBK.. thats right.. the crowd turned on big tuff Big Daddy Cool and started cheering long hair ..earring wearing..chap wearing girl dancing Shawn Michaels... Shawn went in the heel and Diesel was the face and the crowd cheered for HBK..




Oh of course... that wasn't a reaction for Shawn..it was just the antireaction for Bret.... I hope your just grasping at straws and don't really believe that..



Attendance had been slowly dropping for years... pro wrestling was in a major downswing... coming off the boom of the 80's and Hulkamania.. Bret was part of that whole downswing although he and Shawn kept the company afloat.. But wrestling is cyclical... there are highs and lows and both performers experienced both..and as far as where did the fans go?? They went to WCW which was putting out a more fun edgier show with bigger names than Bret and Shawn.. maybe not better workers..but a better total package show... I think your living in this alternate 92-97 fantasy where Bret was Hogans successor drew huge numbers and everything was going just great..and then Bret handed the Belt to Shawn and everything went in the toilet.. Bret came back ratings improved and then Bret invented the attitude era..it just didn't happen that way..





OK but what context did he say that in?? What was the question?? Was the question about WM 13 or one of his supensions?? Context is everything otherwise your just Michael Moore..



I was talking about the out of character TSN interview he did in 03.. not really a "shoot" but it was as close as he's ever come to doing a shoot so I lumped it in..

As far as "In print" So I and everyone else should take into concideration the "speculations" of several wrestlers who might have said "something" in "some magazine" because "some Bret fan" says he thinks he remembers them saying it. Strong testimony your honor...strong testimony indeed..

if you know so much about that era, and you've read shawns book, then you would know why the crowd turned on Diesel in the last 3 minutes of the match...and you would also know that Shawn was pissed off about it and came through the curtain and yelled at Vince for calling the spot that turned the tide....the majority of the crowd was behind Diesel until the kick out....and the Taker interview was in 2002, not 2003...just stating fact....

 

[Shocky]

Where is this myth coming from that Shawn had no undercard to work with. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the foundation of the Attitude Era was being laid while Shawn was on top in 1996.

In 1996 you had Undertaker vs. Mankind, a better under card feud here then Bret ever got while he was champion, plus Stone Cold Steve Austin beginning his push to the next level.

Not only that, but you had guys like Gold Dust, Ron Simmons, and Vader all debuting throughout the summer, on top of guys like Jarrett, Bulldog and Owen still within the company, so where does this myth that Michaels had no one to work with come from?


And yes, the WM 13 thing, some don't agree with Shawn ducking out, but even the WWE kind of concedes to that argument on the Michaels DVD. Shawn talks about it, and he's not addressing it to the fans, he's addressing it to the boys in the back. He clearly acknowledges that none of the boys believed the injury to be legit, and even Jericho says something along the lines of "losing his smile, maybe the most creative excuse ever". Then at the end, the WWE non chalantly puts on the bottom of the screen, "Shawn returned to the ring 3 months later."

 

[jericho3150]

if you know so much about that era, and you've read shawns book, then you would know why the crowd turned on Diesel in the last 3 minutes of the match...and you would also know that Shawn was pissed off about it and came through the curtain and yelled at Vince for calling the spot that turned the tide....the majority of the crowd was behind Diesel until the kick out....

I've read it but I've also watched the match..HBK get a nice pop for his enterance..and it's about halfway through the match when we get the "Lets Go Shawn" chants.. It wasn't just one spot in the match..the fans were turning the whole time..

and the Taker interview was in 2002, not 2003...just stating fact....

Well if you gotta be petty and nitpicky...then I'm sorry..I was mistaken.