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Bret's problem was he was too faithful and loyal to the company and it ended up hurting him! They never delivered what they promised If Bret really left for the money...he would've left the year before.
Bret was a big time juicer eh?? Funny, he only did steroids a few times in his career. You leave out the fact Shawn was a pill popping politician.
Also...yes Shawn did carry the company on his back, but so did Bret for nearly 4 years! Point???
Your basing the better person on who did drugs and who didn't? Well if were gonna do that...BRET'S the better person!!
And oh yes, I just LOVED Triple H 's comments on the DVD, full of B.S. and lies, which isn't a surprise. Bret was willing to do business, but he wanted to do it his way, it was a modest request. Trips also made the mistake of saying that Bret wanted to go out there on Raw the next night, NOT under contract, when the fact is, he was under contract until Nov.30th. Revisionist history at it's best!
ANd of course, I love how people criticize Bret for standing his ground at Survivor Series, and NOBODY criticizes Shawn for his actions at WM14. His actions leading up too that match was ok huh?? Gimmie a break!. Shawn may not have been leaving for the competition, but he was still leaving nonetheless and would've hurt the company!
Shawn is and was great...but your post "Game" is a joke!! I agree with a lot of the stuff you said about Shawn of how great he is, but I can't very well sit here and let you and some of these other idiots, try to downplay the legacy of a great wrestler! And Shawn may be a better person NOWADAYS, but back then, do you honestly think he was a good person??
How is it modest to demand an absolutley unreasonable action such as not dropping the title to the top guy on the way out? I realize they had issues and neither handled it well but at least do your job and drop the title legit on the way out.
And what does anyone have to back up the claims regarding WM14?
I see where most of Bret’s fans are coming from. If it was my favorite wrestler who got screwed, I’d be pissed too. He worked so hard for the company, was a legend in wrestling and to see him go out the way he did, was truly sad to see for most fans. I don’t think anyone who liked him or disliked him was satisfied with that ending. If I had to take a guess, I’d say that he was the one who screwed himself though. It’s true that he was great and one of the top guys in the history of the business, but he was still an employee. He was leaving for the competition and Vince’s concern was legitimate since it had already happen to him once. To have a lesser title go to another company is bad enough, but could you imagine what would happen if THE title went to WCW?
also don’t buy the argument that he would’ve dropped the title the next night. Well, he could have, and that would’ve been fine for Bret, but it wouldn’t have been fine for the company. They wanted to push Shawn and wanted to have him beat Bret in a clean match on a huge PPV. Well, he might not agree with it, but as an employee, he has to do what he’s told. His concern was never for the good of the company, it was for the good of Bret’s ego. He didn’t want to drop the title to Shawn for personal reasons, which I can understand, I don’t blame him for it, but it’s not his title. The title is Vince’s. The ring is Vince’s, the WHOLE COMPANY IS VINCE’S COMPANY.
I don’t blame him for playing one company against the other to get more money, I would’ve done the same thing myself. I don’t blame him for going to WCW, I would’ve done the same thing. I don’t even blame him for asking to win at Summer Slam. But to DEMAND it? And to go on acting like it’s the biggest injustice on earth? That’s ridiculous. If you really think about it, it actually helped him more than hurt him. If he just gives up the title at RAW the way he wanted, we wouldn’t still be talking about it 10 years later. He would’ve been thought of as a great, great wrestler who went to WCW for the money and was never the same again. Just another washed up superstar. But we love victims. We love a guy “standing up for himself”. We love the whole David vs. Goliath story. That’s exactly what this turned into. So if you ask my opinion, what happened was good for Bret AND the company. WWF took a lot of heat, but 10 years later, it’s still the biggest topic in wrestling. Bret, I’m sure legitimately, hated the company and Vince, but we wouldn’t love him as much if the “screw-job” never happened.
Your first 2 paragraphs make my point for me. Vince was in heavy competition, he was paranoid, his champion was going to another company, did you really think he was going to “take Bret’s word” for it? Especially since it already happened to him once?!? Yes, they could’ve taken Bret to court, but the damage would’ve been done already. I don’t know much about you, but if it was my millions of dollars on the line, I wouldn’t just “TRUST” another person to do the right thing, I’d make sure they did, one way or another.
Let’s not make him out to be some sort of a hero or a saint. He was an entertainer, nothing more. After all, this is the same man that cheated on his wife and took steroids through out his career so let’s not make him out to be an angel. He didn’t want to give up the title for personal reasons and that to me doesn’t sound like a “company man” that he portrays himself to be.
As far as claims of “doesn’t Vince owe him that much?” well, here’s my opinion on it. I see it like a Christmas bonus. If my boss gives me one, it’s great. But he doesn’t “OWE” me that bonus, it’s totally up to him to do so or not. I would think that he’s a jerk for not giving me one, but it’s not something that he OWES me. It’s not like Bret was working for free and Vince owed him this ending. Vince was part of the reason why Bret even HAS a legacy. It’s a two way street. Without the WWF, where would Bret be? What did he do in WCW other than end his career on a sour note??
And I wasn’t saying that Bret’s fan base was made because of the screw-job. He was one of the most popular wrestlers in WWF history. I was saying, guys like myself, who weren’t hardcore wrestling fans. Who didn’t love Bret as their favorite wrestler, who wouldn’t have cared as much if he went to WCW, became super interested in Bret and the whole story behind the story, mainly because of the screw-job. And I can bet that it helped sell more than a few books and DVDs for Bret.
You seem to be forgetting, Bret was STILL UNDER CONTRACT! And comparing Madusa Micelli to Bret Hart in this situation is major apples and oranges. Even Vince said later on, a couple years later, that he knew Bret wouldn't do that! So why the big run around??? I think someone got in his ear! As Bret said Vince kept changing his mind every day leading up too the match until word finally leaked out.
So does that make Shawn a hero? Just because he never took steroids??? Even though he took a lot of other drugs, but it's ok b/c he didn't take steroids?? And also, Bret stopped taking steroids a year or two before his major singles push began! In the realm of the wrestling world, he was a hero, even though he made some terrible decisions in his personal life, the way he conducted himself within the business, makes him a hero! The man is human and made a lot of mistakes, and Shawn hasn't???
And even though Shawn doesen't mention it in his book, him and his first wife didn't have a great marriage. Now, IMO, with all the girls that loved Shawn, what do you think happened???
It is up too the boss....but that's pretty sad you think that way, if I work hard for a company, and deserve a bonus, it IS owed to me!!! And Vince PROMISED him he could leave how ever he wanted! It was IN HIS CONTRACT!!
Sorry, but I live in Canada, in his legacy was etched in stone here long before the screw job. Maybe in the states it's a different story, but thanks to the DVD and book, they can now see Bret's career was more than just the "screwjob".
The Dungeon, you are 100% right. i was going to say all i knew and what you said was half of what i know on the situation. another point to be made, more than half of the locker room planned to boycott the following Monday Night Raw because they were upset and they felt if someone like bret got screwed, it could happen to them. but, Vince eased them by telling them b.s. i remember The Undertaker going directly to vince and telling him to apologize to bret. the aftermath were he threw in the whole "Bret Screwed Bret" was just to get fans to hate him so he can become a heel.Vince states (monday night wars dvd) after i did what i did to Bret Hart, why not use that. If the fans hate me, so be it, and the wwe try's to turn a negative into a positive. Mick Foley states "I think deep down, vince doesnt believe bret screwed bret, i think Vince believes like I believe is that Vince Screwed Bret. what made vince think that bret, (who decided to stay loyal to the wwf/e and sign a 20 year deal for less money) would walk out with the belt? c-mon was bret gonna wait at home until he could appear in Wcw, which was December 15 at Starrcade. Vince was paranoid bottom line. Alundra Blayze (Madusa in wcw) wasnt happy with her character, and started to negotiate with WCW while under contract with wwf/e. when the wwf found out, they fired her on the spot for talking with the competition. i guess Vince made the assumption she was gonna mail back the championship belt. so, she quickly signed with wcw, and against her will she dropped the womens title in the garbage can.
another situation: 1993 Hulk Hogan was planning on leaving the company. so it was suppose to be Hogan/Bret for the belt. Hogan ducks Bret and said it would be a bad match and he would rather drop the belt to Yokozuna because he had creative control in his contract. just like how bret said he would either win by dq at SS and give up on Raw, or him to win at SS by dq, and drop the belt to Ken Shamrock. bret felt that since Shamrock beat both Shawn and Bret earlier in the year, why not drop it to him.
if vince had the balls to go into bret's locker room and tell him face-to-face why he screwed him, why wouldnt shawn admit to bret when their were in the same room? he'd rather admit it when bret is long gone from the wwf/e. what's shawn's excuse? he was afraid, why do you think there were so many agents at ringside. why do you think Triple H and Gerald Brisco came running down to the ring to bring shawn backstage.
that's all the past now. bret said he wouldnt forgive vince, shawn, triple h, hebner, or brisco for their involvment, but he also said life is to short to carry grudges. i wish it wouldnt have happened to him cause he's my all time favorite wrestler and always will be, but it did. he'll never be in another wwe ring because of it. bret and vince are on good terms now.
Would any of you, put in the same situation have acted any different?..it's so easy to sit there and pass judgment when you weren't there...Bret, right or wrong felt that Shawn had disrespected him and treated him unprofessionally...he exercised what he thought was within his contractual rights and most people given the circumstances would have probably done the same thing...this was not simply about 'doing the job'...and regarding morals, Bret was speaking out about the very same things that Shawn is now championing...Shawn says he has kids now and he doesn't want be responsible for perpetuating racy angles,showing his ass-crack and sexually overt sitiuations but when Bret said the same things in 1997, as a father of four kids, Shawn and Hunter did nothing but mock him....Shawn may have seen the light but that doesn't make his reaction to Bret's stance on the same subject in 1997 acceptable...bottom line is if a person feels they are being shafted, the are going to go on the defense and that's what Bret did...maybe he should have just said ok and dropped the belt, but that's probably easier said than done given the circumstances...it's not the same as Hogan refusing to do business or Shawn not wanting to job to Austin...let's not forget that Bret put Shawn over in 1996 and passed the torch and he could not have put him over any better than he did in the Iron Man match....Bret did not have a history of being a disruptive presence in the locker room, and was not a guy who was notorious for not wanting to put people over...
Would any of you, put in the same situation have acted any different?..it's so easy to sit there and pass judgment when you weren't there...Bret, right or wrong felt that Shawn had disrespected him and treated him unprofessionally...he exercised what he thought was within his contractual rights and most people given the circumstances would have probably done the same thing...this was not simply about 'doing the job'...and regarding morals, Bret was speaking out about the very same things that Shawn is now championing...Shawn says he has kids now and he doesn't want be responsible for perpetuating racy angles,showing his ass-crack and sexually overt sitiuations but when Bret said the same things in 1997, as a father of four kids, Shawn and Hunter did nothing but mock him....Shawn may have seen the light but that doesn't make his reaction to Bret's stance on the same subject in 1997 acceptable...bottom line is if a person feels they are being shafted, the are going to go on the defense and that's what Bret did...maybe he should have just said ok and dropped the belt, but that's probably easier said than done given the circumstances...it's not the same as Hogan refusing to do business or Shawn not wanting to job to Austin...let's not forget that Bret put Shawn over in 1996 and passed the torch and he could not have put him over any better than he did in the Iron Man match....Bret did not have a history of being a disruptive presence in the locker room, and was not a guy who was notorious for not wanting to put people over...
So you're saying Bret is not responsible for his own actions? Regardless of what HBK or Hogan or HHH did, Bret was the one to disrespect the business and traditions contained within it,(Those would be the same ones you say HBK disrespected with him not wanting to drop to Austin) in this situation he didn't. He is the one who had a responability to the wrestlers, the fans, to Vince, and himself to drop the title with dignity, and he failed like most ego maniacs would.
As far as the over the top raciness, if you don't like it or don't want your kids to watch it, the solution is simple, change the channel.
I agree, Bret is responsible for his actions...just saying that you can't point fingers and say that you would have acted any differently given the circumstances...we're not talking about a case of 'just dropping the belt'..it's not that cut and dry, and even Vince McMahon has stated that....and i'm not talking about changing the channel or parental discretion...i'm talking about HBK realizing that maybe Bret wasn't wrong for voicing his concerns 10 years ago after all...it seems that the WWE wants to portray Bret as a whiner and Shawn a 'changed for the better man' when he voices the same concerns a decade later...he says on his new dvd: "you know the deal, if you don't like it, send me home"....Bret was very vocal about the same issues in 1997 and was branded as being difficult....you can't have it both ways, that's just plain hypocrisy...
I think standing up for your own self respect, and standing up to Michaels disrespect because nobody else would, is rightous....after all, Bret was the only one with guts enough to do it!
