10 years on Montreal Screwjob

[mattitude_03]

Well as any good wrestling fan knows today marks the day in which in the 1997 Survivor Series, Bret Hart was famously and on purpose screwed out of the WWE title before he moved to WCW. I just thought i would start this thread to get peoples thoughts about the famous screwover.

My thoughts: For the money that WCW threw at Breat Hart i think and good wrestler probaly wouold have sold out and moved on. I cant blame Bret for going. I know that WCW were breathing down Vinces neck at this point and was during the time in which he was loosing the Monday Night wars. But Bret Hart was honest and was going to drop the belt back to WWE and not take it to WCW. But for Vince he didnt care who it was or most trustworthy person ever he couldnt take this risk which is fair enough. However i feel he could have done things so much better i dont know how but im open to suggestions!
As for Bret Hart i feel sorry for him and all the hard work he put into the WWE over the years however i do feel that holding a grudge that long is silly as he full well knew of the situation between WCW and WWE at that time. I think to still hold the grudge now and deprive so many fans of his to not see him on WWE TV again i think is selfish but fair play to him for being able to hold the grudge!

Your thoughts?

 

[ChaseDavis]

Technically tomorrow is the 10 year mark

as far as my opinion, when your career is concerned, its never too long to hold a grudge. As fans who want there to be a relationship between the two parties, of course we feel its been too long but considering the way the business is built, the top commandment was broken that night and Bret had good reason to feel the way he did.

The relationship is mending itself so its hard to say anymore what the future will hold. I think Bret has moved on, he still hates Michaels but his relationship with Vince has improved. SS 97 will always go down in history, and there isn't much that can be said that hasn't been said before

Anybody who hasn't seen Wrestling with Shadows should take the time to do so, its an interesting watch. When its all said and done Bret will be remembered for his career and not so much SS 97

 

[Dastardly1]

Its Very sad for sooo many reasons. Yes we the fans will prob never see Bret hart in the ring on WWE TV ever again but man do you really blame him??? They screwed him over in his own hometown in front of his friends and family Mocked him after the fact with midgets and such turned it into a storyline with the birth of The Mr. McMahon character, Killed his brother and brother in law. If i was him i would hold that grudge to the F'n Grave... their defense... he wouldn’t job in Canada??? IDK guys and gals What the hell could have been done??

 

[BrooklynBuc]

Grudges are bad things to hold, but Bret right now is doing exactly what he should be: forming dialogue without any commitments. I always 'forgive but don't forget', and Vince McMahon has broken so much respect that he and Bret will never be friends or close business associates again. The DVD is something that cements Bret's legacy as a wrestler, so he needs it more than the WWE does, and that's probably the only reason why he would even consider dealing with Vince and the company again.

As for the rest of them, there is no reason to deal with them or befriend them again. Why would Bret ever need Shawn Michaels or HHH in his life? Just move on and consider them nothing in your eyes. Don't even speak bad of them; have complete apathy for them because they deserve nothing less.

 

[Shocky]

Both the darkest and brightest day of the industry. It was the darkest day because obviously the best worker and best business man the WWE has ever seen was absolutely screwed out of his mind by the company that he bent over backwards to keep afloat. Let's not be wrong or anyone start the Bret Screwed Bret crap, this was all McMahon and Michaels doing.

Vince was very, very lucky he didn't have a full scale mutiny on his hands that night. For all intents and purposes, from everything that has come out of the screwjob, only four of the boys in the locker room were on Michaels side, and that includes Michaels, Triple H, and the Harris Brothers. Other then that, again from what has been reported or written in book form, the locker room was pissed, and rightfully so.

But, it was also a bright moment. The WWE was at it's lowest point, so how much worse could it have gotten? It gave birth to Mr. McMahon, and launched the Attitude Era even further. It made the war competitive again. It also helped Stone Cold out immensely to have such an evil son of a bitch in McMahon and Michaels to launch his first title run.

 

[beetle717]

Its Very sad for sooo many reasons. Yes we the fans will prob never see Bret hart in the ring on WWE TV ever again but man do you really blame him??? They screwed him over in his own hometown in front of his friends and family Mocked him after the fact with midgets and such turned it into a storyline with the birth of The Mr. McMahon character, Killed his brother and brother in law. If i was him i would hold that grudge to the F'n Grave... their defense... he wouldn’t job in Canada??? IDK guys and gals What the hell could have been done??

You do realize that it was not any where near his hometown, it was something like 3200 kilometers away from his home town. And some responsibility however minimal must be taken by Bret himself considering that he did refuse to do his job and lose the title at Survivor Series, no matter what his reasoning. That said, Vince and company could have handled it better as well by just having him drop the title a few weeks before hand or not letting have that last title run at all.
As for killing people the WWE didn't kill anyone, Owen's death was a tragic accident and Bulldog's was from years of drug abuse.


And to BrooklynBuc you're right, Bret doesn't need HHH or HBK anymore than they need him there is no reason for either side to associate with one another unless they choose to.

 

[mattitude_03]

But, it was also a bright moment. The WWE was at it's lowest point, so how much worse could it have gotten? It gave birth to Mr. McMahon, and launched the Attitude Era even further. It made the war competitive again. It also helped Stone Cold out immensely to have such an evil son of a bitch in McMahon and Michaels to launch his first title run.

This is very true and i geuss with every bad point in not only wrestling but life theres always something good to come out of it!

 

[Shocky]

You do realize that it was not any where near his hometown, it was something like 3200 kilometers away from his home town. And some responsibility however minimal must be taken by Bret himself considering that he did refuse to do his job and lose the title at Survivor Series, no matter what his reasoning. That said, Vince and company could have handled it better as well by just having him drop the title a few weeks before hand or not letting have that last title run at all.
As for killing people the WWE didn't kill anyone, Owen's death was a tragic accident and Bulldog's was from years of drug abuse.


And to BrooklynBuc you're right, Bret doesn't need HHH or HBK anymore than they need him there is no reason for either side to associate with one another unless they choose to.

That is untrue, and one of the biggest myths going in wrestling today. Bret had no problem dropping the title, it just wasn't going to be to Shawn Michaels. He wasn't going to put Michaels over again in anyway shape or form, and you can thank Shawn Michaels for it.

Bret is a company man, and would have never done anything to hurt the company. He said himself, he would forfeit the title the next night on Raw, the only thing he wouldn't do is drop the title to Shawn Michaels. Was that so much to ask for, especially with all of the locker room garbage between those two? Was it really so much to let a guy that took exactly 6 months off in twelve years with the company not job to the one guy he despised? Bret even suggested that he should drop the belt to Austin.

Again, it wasn't an issue of Bret dropping the title, it just wasn't going to be to Michaels.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Bret is a company man, and would have never done anything to hurt the company. He said himself, he would forfeit the title the next night on Raw, the only thing he wouldn't do is drop the title to Shawn Michaels. Was that so much to ask for, especially with all of the locker room garbage between those two? Was it really so much to let a guy that took exactly 6 months off in twelve years with the company not job to the one guy he despised? Bret even suggested that he should drop the belt to Austin.

But in the very sense, that WAS hurting the company. Because at that time, the company wanted to promote Steve Austin at Wrestlemania, on winning the World Championship. So therefore, they wanted their top heel at the time.. thus being, Shawn Michaels.

The original idea (I believe) Bret Hart had suggested, was that Triple H. interfere, followed by Owen Hart & the British Bulldog, ending the match in a No Contest, or even a DQ with H.B.K. winning, but not the belt. THAT was nice of him, but not him helping the company.

To "forfeit" the Championship, would mean that he never unofficially lost it. So by that, Hart would be jumping ship to W.C.W. as the "uncrowned" Champion of W.W.F. & that is the prime thing Vince McMahon didn't want.

I'll agree that they could've & should've met half way with Bret, in having him lose to someone else. But it could've ended a lot better with Bret saying.. "okay, I'll drop the title to Shawn.. just not fairly, have Triple H. interfere & cost me my match." Thus.. H.B.K. would win in classic heel fashion, Bret Hart would be cheered in his finale by his home crowd, & the W.W.E. would be able to put the Championship on the guy they wanted it to go to.

 

[Shocky]

But with all of that being said, why give a guy creative control over his character if you are not going to let him exercise it? I know a lot of people despise creative control by wrestlers, but the fact of the matter remains that Vince wrote that into Bret's contract, and Vince was the one that let him out of that contract. Bret didn't hold a gun to Vince's head. If Vince didn't want Bret to go, then Bret probably would have stayed. It was a foregone conclusion in my mind. The second Bret asked for this, the Screwjob was on, no matter what the outcome of the match was going to be.

For storyline sake, I think Owen as champion would have been a better option then Michaels. There was already an ingrown storyline with Austin vs. Hart via the Neckbreaker.

 

[Slim Pickns]

I like both of your arguments but I have to agree with Paul Bearer over Will.

Bret Hart worked the hardest schedule anyone has ever had to work, he was the ultimate company man. Are you telling me after 12 years of loyalty that Vince had to have him drop the belt to the only man in the entire company that he was unwilling to drop it to?

I know Vince wanted to build Austin up until Wrestlemania, but beating Hart in Montreal for the belt in his last match could build him up just as much as the Rumble/Wrestlemania run could have.

As far as what Will said about forfeiting the belt, I thought Bret wanted to lose it on RAW to either Austin or Ken Shamrock, but Vince was afraid that if he had the belt after the PPV he would just leave for Nitro the next day and take the belt with him.

 

[MonsterMash]

Not jobbing to someone because you don't like them is unprofessional. There are a few people at my office that I don't like, but I still work with them because it's the professional thing to do.

Look at Matt Hardy and Edge. Those two were able to work together and I doubt that either put up such a big fuss about having to job to the other. If those two can work together and agree to a finish, I don't see why Michaels and Hart couldn't. I would think that Edge nailing Lita behind Matt's back would be a little more serious than the HBK/Hart heat had.

 

[ChaseDavis]

Not jobbing to someone because you don't like them is unprofessional. There are a few people at my office that I don't like, but I still work with them because it's the professional thing to do.

Look at Matt Hardy and Edge. Those two were able to work together and I doubt that either put up such a big fuss about having to job to the other. If those two can work together and agree to a finish, I don't see why Michaels and Hart couldn't. I would think that Edge nailing Lita behind Matt's back would be a little more serious than the HBK/Hart heat had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARNeDZdtsPQ

I know what you mean, its horrible to hear about someone not wanting to job. What kind of man would walk away instead of doing what is best for the business.

Most people forget about this...

 

[Emmet]

People are forgetting a few things here. HBK told Bret and Vince point blank that he wouldnt job to anyone anywhere, and especially wouldnt job to Bret. Bret's contract with WCW didnt start until December 5th, he said he would have put HBK over anywhere else bar Canada, what was wrong with Bret dropping the belt to HBK in the USA in the middle or late November on RAW? Bret also said he would have dropped the belt to Foley, Shamrock,Taker, Austin or even Steve Lombardi at MSG. Vince wouldnt go for it. Vince just wanted to strip away Brets value and dignity by screwing him at SS because Bret had too much control in his contract. Does anyone seriously think Bret, the ultimate company man, would take the WWF belt to Nitro? No chance.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Bret didn't hold a gun to Vince's head. If Vince didn't want Bret to go, then Bret probably would have stayed. It was a foregone conclusion in my mind. The second Bret asked for this, the Screwjob was on, no matter what the outcome of the match was going to be.

I agree with this 100%, as it was Mr. McMahon that more or less BEGGED Bret Hart to resign with the W.W.F., instead of signing a huge million dollar money deal with W.C.W. at the end of 96. Only for McMahon, less than a year later to tell Hart he's "too old" & "out of style." So yes, Bret Hart WANTED to remain a loyal W.W.F. Superstar.. it was McMahon who didn't want Hart to remain, cause McMahon felt Hart was growing old & stale.

For storyline sake, I think Owen as champion would have been a better option then Michaels. There was already an ingrown storyline with Austin vs. Hart via the Neckbreaker.

This much I'm torn on. You see, as a "fan" I have & will always love H.B.K. & believe him to be the best option available, especially back then. But as a unbias on-looker, you create a good point. Having Owen Hart take the Championship in a battle royal, the following night to "carrying on" the Hart Foundation would've created just as much of a powerful storyline for Austin to have to run through the remaining members.. with slight exception to the fact that it was more or less, ONLY Jim Neidhart & Owen Hart left.

The British Bulldog was injured, & ultimately released. And that was it. I remember a French-Canadian team, Doug Furnace (wrong spelling, I know) & Phillip Lofon? They could've provided SOME interaction.. but they sucked. So ultimately, Shawn Michaels & the new up-start D-X, with Triple H. was more or less the only way they could've gone.

I know Vince wanted to build Austin up until Wrestlemania, but beating Hart in Montreal for the belt in his last match could build him up just as much as the Rumble/Wrestlemania run could have.

And if you gave Steve Austin the Championship at Survivor Series, then where do you go with the Royal Rumble, & the build up to Wrestlemania? Taking Austin away from winning, would've resulted in who winning? Owen Hart? Shawn Michaels? For what.. just to be fed to Austin in the long run?

Its always been better for the fan favorite to 'chase' the Championship, than defend it.

 

[Shocky]

Not jobbing to someone because you don't like them is unprofessional. There are a few people at my office that I don't like, but I still work with them because it's the professional thing to do.

Look at Matt Hardy and Edge. Those two were able to work together and I doubt that either put up such a big fuss about having to job to the other. If those two can work together and agree to a finish, I don't see why Michaels and Hart couldn't. I would think that Edge nailing Lita behind Matt's back would be a little more serious than the HBK/Hart heat had.

Yes, make sure to look at the lost my smile video. Hmm, HBK didn't do the same thing to bret 8 months earlier going into WM 13. Bret was simply returning the favor that Michaels created leading into WM13.

And as far as Hardy and Edge, Hardy in reality had no choice but to comeback and job to Edge. He was already fired, so he had no bargaining chips. Edge wasn't going to get fired, he was the star on the rise while Matt Hardy is the perennial mid carder. Really, this is a totally different situation. Plus, after the initial value of this feud was used, these two have been separated ever since.

 

[beetle717]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARNeDZdtsPQ

I know what you mean, its horrible to hear about someone not wanting to job. What kind of man would walk away instead of doing what is best for the business.

Most people forget about this...

But his knee was in horrible shape at that point, and needed surgery, Bret was just throwing a temper tantrum. These are two very different things. HBK was leaving to have his knee rebuilt, Bret was leaving for money, totally the same right?

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Bret was leaving for money, totally the same right?

Bret Hart didn't WANT to leave the W.W.F. -- Vince McMahon more or less, canned him. McMahon told Hart that he felt they couldn't pay him the money they "guaranteed" him in his contract, & that they felt he was getting old & couldn't perform on the level they wanted anymore. (yes, thats over-stating a bit) But the bottomline is..

Bret Hart did NOT want to quit, he didn't wanna leave W.W.F. -- he even offered to take ANOTHER pay cut, but McMahon was clearly wanting him gone, & mainly due to his age.

So, while the situation with H.B.K. & the lost smile issue may of been because of knee surgery.. the issue with Bret Hart & Survivor Series was all on Vince McMahon. And in all honesty, I'm tired of people blaming Shawn Michaels. He did what he was told to do, because he liked & wanted to remain with the job he had. If Michaels, then, stood up to McMahon.. you likely wouldn't be seeing H.B.K. in a W.W.E. ring today. (dispite that Michaels, NOW, has stood up to him - thats because the Michaels of today, doesn't need McMahon like the Michaels of then, did.)

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

What about Earl Hebner? I am surprised he has yet to be mentioned (if he has, I apologize). According to Bret, Earl swore on his kids that he wouldn't let anything happen. I don't care if Earl was trying to keep his job or not, you don't swear to a guy that you are going to do something and then screw him.

 

[Dastardly1]

You do realize that it was not any where near his hometown, it was something like 3200 kilometers away from his home town. And some responsibility however minimal must be taken by Bret himself considering that he did refuse to do his job and lose the title at Survivor Series, no matter what his reasoning. That said, Vince and company could have handled it better as well by just having him drop the title a few weeks before hand or not letting have that last title run at all.
As for killing people the WWE didn't kill anyone, Owen's death was a tragic accident and Bulldog's was from years of drug abuse..

Ok...U must be from Canada cuz no one uses Kilos round here but thats cool i love the north..Dude i understand Calgary/Montreal not the same thing but lets not break balls here hometown, home country, my spot, your spot, gym spot, and my dog named spot whatever...... Who told Owen to go up there in the first place?? Wasn’t Owens idea i know that...hmmm?? Vince? Who likes big men and prob wouldn’t have pushed Davey boy otherwise??? Vince??? The man is scum u know it i know it the IWC knows it.. He didnt cut the wire or put the needle in the arm but he told to ring the bell.. he is sooooo responsible

 

[BrooklynBuc]

This is clearly a case of grown-ass men who can't stand to have their egos in check...

Bret Hart kept thinking he needed to keep this reputation of never losing in Canada and maintaining his "dignity" by always winning or at least not losing the title. He never would have disrespected the WWE or the title but Vince was too scared to realize that. Still, Bret should have agreed to lose the title in some form, even if it meant a complete beatdown. What if like 4-5 guys, including Chyna, HHH, and Rick Rude, just came in while the ref was out and beat the everloving hell out of him? Bret gets pinned because of all the punishment, loses the title, he gets up and fights back, and still can walk out of the ring? Isn't that how a hero leaves? Beaten up and hurt but can still walk out with his head held high? Bret was screwed, definitely, but he should have given some leeway and understand where Vince was coming from. Just giving up the title because you're leaving doesn't do anything except disappoint the fans who want to see a real match for the belt.

For Vince McMahon, he wanted to establish Shawn as the top heel by beating Bret in Canada. He was too stubborn to let a guy that he respected (and respected him) either drop the title at a different point, or at least drop it to a different guy. Vince (as you hear in every interview) wanted Bret to lose the title in Montreal AT Survivor Series no matter what. Why there? Why not the 20-25 other venues the WWE came in and out of between the agreement and after Survivor Series? For a guy who business requires last minute changes every time, he was too stubborn and hard-assed to allow a guy some respect, and instead chose to just take it, not caring who he hurt in the process. Vince should have at least had another option. What if Bret lost the belt to Undertaker again, who then would lose it to Michaels? Was it the only concrete option for Bret to lose in Montreal on that one night?

For Shawn Michaels, maybe he is an asshole. So what? If this is Vince's guy, this is Vince's guy. What can you do? So Shawn he would never job to anyone. He wasn't the champion. Bret and Shawn never saw eye to eye, and probably never will. Shawn, in this matter, had something to do with it, and probably he and HHH had a lot to do with it but what was he supposed to do? Say no? Quit? Punch Vince? Maybe he could have been less willing, but when your boss says you're the top guy and wants to give you the top title and you have to screw over someone, you can't turn that down to defend a man that you don't get along with anyway. If Shawn had to screw over Kevin Nash or Scott Hall, would he make the same choice? I bet he would.

For the rest of them, Bret did a smart thing telling them not to quit over this. Only Owen stayed because of his contract, but a lot of guys didn't respect Vince for doing it (and probably still don't). Still, at the time, it was only the WWE, WCW (who had a glass ceiling for its champions) and ECW (who could not compete with the heavy contracts). How would they keep their lives? McMahon was an asshole, but a lot of bosses are, especially when they do things like that.

Overall, a bunch of guys wanted things their way, and now no one is happy and no one can forgive and forget. Well, except maybe Shawn, who benefitted most out of this...

 

[mattitude_03]

It was all totally handed wrong to be simple Vince Mcmahon knows it and so does Bret and the whole wrestling world im glad that Bret went into the back and punched Vince. It was needed and as for Triple H and Micheals it completly destroyed my respect for them. But i think michaels is probs not to blame im not sure we know for real if Shawn had actually any involvement in it or knew about it same goes for Earl Hebner the referee.

 

[Shocky]

I don't feel bad for Michaels in the least bit. The guy feigned a knee injury in March to avoid jobbing to Hart at Wrestlemania, disapears in the summer again when he is scheduled to feud with Hart, and miraculously, he's ready to comeback and face Hart when he is booked to get the WWE title. McMahon wouldn't have fired Michaels, no way in hell. Michaels had McMahon by the balls at that point, because along with the Undertaker, those were the only two former WWF champions left in the company, not much to build on.

Michaels was as much a part of this thing as McMahon was. The Reason why McMahon went to Michaels is because McMahon knew Michaels would do it, and no one else would. Like I said, this was premeditated and deliberate. Hart got fucked over, and that's why we don't get to see Bret Hart anymore except for very rare, rare occasions.

 

[mattitude_03]

The other thing is as well i cant really see why Bret didnt just flat out agree to loose to Shawn yeah he hated him but come on at the time WWE was a sinking ship and Bret knew that and he was of to work for WCW on bigger wage. Loosing the title to his home crowd yes would have sucked but its not going to hurt his reputation. He was of to the where "the big boys play". But i can see where Bret was coming from. Overall i gess was just 2 stubborn people disgreeing abouut the way a match should end. Just like the Hogan and Vince Russo at Bash and the Beach.

 

[reddevil69]

this just proves that it is Vince and the WWE that keep on drudging up the incident in Montreal...not Bret Hart....WWE is exploiting the incident a decade after the fact, yet Shawn keeps saying that Bret needs to get over it?...what a crock of shit....i just read Hart's new book and out of 540 pages he talks about the screw job in one chapter....it blows HBK's book outta the world....Shawns career is no comparison to the life Hart lead....