What if the Montreal Screwjob never happened?

[Swarles Barkley]

Number 1: Vince didn't trust Bret.
Number 2: Vince also hated when the world title would change on live television(RAW).

Number 1: It's not that Vince didn't trust Bret. Vince didn't trust Bischoff not to throw piles of cash at Bret to show up with the belt. I doubt Bret would have done it (there seemed to be no animosity between the two prior to the screw job), but I can at least understand Vince's reasoning.

Number 2: Unless this is said on the Bret-Shawn DVD (which I have yet to watch), where did you get this idea from? The title has changed numerous times on Raw, both live and tapped. I don't understand where you got the idea that Vince hates it. (Unless, as I said, he says this on the DVD.)

 

[Dagger Dias]

If the Montreal Screwjob never happened then things would have gone far worse for the WWE. This incident was one of the most controversial in history yet it was a necessary evil, as much as I hate to say it. Hart was not going to lose and he would have walked out of WWE as their world champion, one final middle finger to them before he joined WCW. This would have been awful for WWE because their top guy would join their biggest opponent while wearing their top belt, and there was no way Vince was going to let that happen. It resulted in the Mr McMahon character and the subsequent feud with Stone Cold. WCW might actually have won the ratings war if the Montreal Screwjob had never happened.

 

[jungledeano]

I don't think he hated title changes on free tv so much. If they were an absolute must, then he would go ahead with them. It's probably because he could make more money promoting title matches and changes for PPV. Can't make as much money on free-tv title changes.

 

[FutureChamp328]

First off to all the people arguing over what Bret would have done just go watch Hitman Hart: Wrestling with Shadows. It's an awesome documentary made after the Screwjob about Bret's point of view of what was happening at the time. After that go watch Heartbreak and Triumph: The Shawn Micheals Story and skip to the part about Montreal and listen to Shawn and Hunter talk about it from their POV them go watch this latest DVD that came out then you might understand it better.

This event was totally about politics. Bret wanted one thing and Vince wanted another. In any ordinary case Vince would have had the final say but in Bret's contract he had "reasonable creative control" for the last 30 days of his deal. This allowed him to basically call all the shots for his character within reason and asking to drop the belt one night instead of another wasn't reasonable grounds for Vince to override him based on their contract.

The night of Survivor Series Vince, Bret, Shawn, and Hunter all had a meeting to discuss the title situation where Bret refused to drop the belt in Montreal and said he wanted to go on TV the next night and forfeit it instead, not lose it. Vince had his hands tied and agreed because he had no choice but there was still the fear that Bret would just jump ship with the title. After Bret left Hunter basically said screw him and do what you have to and the decision was made that during a spot where Shawn was supposed to put Bret in the Sharpshooter and have it reversed on to himself the bell would be rung before Bret could reverse the hold. The rest is history.

Now to answer the OP's question if Bret had stayed in the WWE (which he wouldn't because Vince actually asked for him to go to WCW and be released from a twenty year contract which was barely a year old because he couldn't afford it) he would have probably stayed in the main event/ upper midcard. The WWE at the time was tailor made for guys like Stone Cold and HBK and Bret, as good as he was, was pretty much old news. Sure he and Shawn would have probably feuded more but the fact is that people move on. They moved from Hogan to Bret and now they were moving from Bret to Stone Cold and it was time for Bret to start to move on.

 

[Chadmw]

One thing that has always bothered me about the screw job, was the fact that Bret said he didn't want to lose the title in Canada, but he was willing to drop it the next night on Raw. The only problem with that is the next Raw was also in Canada. So I can't see how he was willing to drop it on Raw, if he wasn't willing to drop it at Survivor series

 

[jacdnwarrior]

It's amazing how this topic still gets talked about to this day. Here are the facts as spoken by people who were there. I wasn't there and neither were the rest of us. If I believe what has been said, by those including the people who were directly involved here are the facts (again based on hearsay from those who were there):

Vince had made a promise to keep Bret with WWE and signed a deal with him. The fact is Vince decides that he has to change directions of the company and tells Bret to go for a better deal in WCW. The statement that Vince couldn't afford Bret was complete bullshit. He pays Tyson, 3 million for one match (a punch and a three count), but he can't afford Bret's 20 yr deal which was considerably less ? Sorry I don't buy that. HE told Bret one thing about the finish at SS, meanwhile planning the screwjob finish with HBK, Brisco among others. He then goes on to lie on Bret and continue to trash Bret at every opportunity, and portraying HBK as a saint who did nothing wrong ever.

HBK had been a notorious backstage pain in the ass. He refused to put over people including Austin at WM, until Taker told him to put over Austin, or he (Taker) would personally kick his ass. HBK had said he would not put over Bret or any member of his family who was working with the company. Bret then decides he won't put him over. He goes along with Vince's plan to change the finish on Bret. After Bret leaves he becomes a saint and Bret becomes a pariah.

I clearly side with Bret on this issue. He had an unprofessional jerk in HBK to put over, he was being pushed out of a company he had been loyal to for quite some time and he had creative control over his character. Add to that the amount of bs that Vince spread about Bret afterwards, the treatment of Owen and Owen's death I feel absolutely no sympathy for either HBK or Vince. That being said, I think if it were me, I would have put over HBK, I wouldn't have been happy about it, but I am leaving the company for a better paycheque. I understand his reason, he was fed up with HBK, but he probably should have just done the job. The other problem is that Bret had a huge problem with the direction of the company, the sexual themes, the profanity etc. were not something he liked being a part of.

Now to answer the question, had Bret stayed he would have been an incredible asset to the company. If he had put over Austin at WM, that would have been a far better match and resolution to the their feud than the Austin HBK match. The feuds that he could have against the Rock, Angle, Edge, Kane, Batista, Jericho, among others and the amount of help, education he could have given to the upcoming performers with regards to storytelling would be quite beneficial to the newguys. He had at least another 5 - 10 years to give to the company.

 

[DeathClutch]

Last night, I was watching the Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels DVD that recently came out, and it had me thinking and I wanted to discuss some things with you guys.First of all, I thought the DVD was great, one of the best documentaries I've seen when it comes to wrestling, but when Jim Ross started talking about WM 12, that is when ideas started flying in my head.Now Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart was supposed to have a rematch at Wrestlemania 13.I had a problem with that, for one, the quality of the match Bret and Shawn had at WM 12 was 5 star, how could you had a better match? Ok, so Bret wins, Bret said he wanted Shawn to chase the belt, and make loads of money, while also truely passing the torch to HBK.Did anyone forget that if Bret vs HBK 2 happened, that would of possibly killed Austin's Match? Maybe Taker vs Stone Cold that would of been a match to see.Now the important point, Surivivor Series 97', it seems to me instead of Shawn, Bret and Vince getting in a room, nobody else, to discuss the finish everything would of been straight.Instead, it seems that Bret would say I want this finish, Shawn in a seperate meeting wanted a different finish.Ok, Bret wanted to win in Montreal, then the next night lose to Shawn in Ottawa?Imagine the ratings that night? Also second finish, DQ with a run in from Hunter, same thing would of happened.So here's the questions, what would of happened if Bret did retain, and what would of WWE looked like if he stayed in the WWE?

Ironically I watched the doc last night and noticed some things that were said. Talking about Austin he was always getting pushed Bret's and his match at Survivor Series is one of the best straight up, physical wrestling matches you'll see that had a bit of everything and like the old saying goes it takes two to tango.

Though I remember reading on Bret's website that the plan was for Austin/Bret IV to happen at WrestleMania 14, so who knows.

Bret/Shawn is a story pure sadness I didn't realize they were so tight in the 80s and early 90s and HHH being the one who thought of the screw job didn't surprised me in the least, HHH the character I generally like but the guy in the back comes off like one backstabbing bastard.

Bret worked way over his alloted contracted dates shows the person he was and could of easily said bye here's the belt Vince; Bret didn't he showed up to do what was and is right for the business, Vince could of allowed Bret to go out the way he wanted, even dropping the belt on RAW either way the doc was honest and closure, from a wrestling fans stand point I started watching WWF in July 1994 and on 4th January 2010 when they stepped in the ring and shaked each others hands and hugged I could of easily stopped watching wrestling that night, I'd only ever wanted to see Taker remain undefeated at WrestleMania and Hart/Shawn make up and I'd be happy if I never watched wrestling again.

HBK/Bret could have, should have had many more matches splitting the results both ways but Bret had no place in the Attitude Era though I agreed with his line about being in his prime in 1997 I'd say between 1994-1997 he was shit hot on the ball and no one could come close to having as many top quality matches as he did.

 

[bxbigshow]

Had Bret stayed in WWE instead of moving to WCW what would happen?

Well he would've never had his head kicked off by that jackass Goldberg. And maybe we'd have a better Bret Hart that could've provided us with years of entertainment.

And Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle would've been possible...

 

[MrMojoRisin]

One thing that has always bothered me about the screw job, was the fact that Bret said he didn't want to lose the title in Canada, but he was willing to drop it the next night on Raw. The only problem with that is the next Raw was also in Canada. So I can't see how he was willing to drop it on Raw, if he wasn't willing to drop it at Survivor series

That is one of the inconsistencies in the story over the years.

But despite Bret's claims that was why he didn't want to drop the belt in Montreal, if you read his book, you can see that originally, that wasn't an issue at all.

When first told that he would be facing Michaels at Survivor Series, he didn't have a problem with it, and in fact went to Michaels in the dressing room and told him that despite everything that had happened between them, Shawn could trust Bret to be professional in the ring, that he was safe and that he would drop the belt to him and put the torch in his hand. Michaels response was 'I appreciate that, but just know that I'm not willing to do the same for you'.

That was the point where Bret decided he couldn't drop the belt to Michaels.

Later he also felt that with how their angle was playing out, with HBK taking shots at Canada every chance he got, sticking the flag up his nose and so forth, that it made no sense for the Canadian hero to lose the match... especially in Canada. I agree with that, but this was Vince being Vince, and already tearing down Hart on his way out, as he'd done with countless others before.

Even though he's stated that he thought it would kill him off to drop the belt in Canada which is why he refused, if you look deeper into his comments, and not just take them at face value, you can see it was less an issue with losing in Canada, and more how he was losing as it related to his storyline with the guy he was losing to.

Bret was actually willing to lose to anyone else on the roster. He even once suggested dropping the belt to Steve Lombardi at MSG the following week (Lombardi had won a battle royal that gave him a shot there the month before). He even would have dropped to Michaels if Shawn could have just kept his mouth shut.

There's so many layers to this story which is why it still gets talked about today. McMahon clearly had the money to pay Bret, as proved by what he paid Tyson a few months later, but I think the WWF had just become too small for both Hart and Michaels to co-exist, and McMahon simply decided to side with Shawn instead of Bret... possibly because he had been getting beat bad by the NWO concept at that time, and siding with Bret would have meant Shawn going to put the NWO over even more, and likely killing his business.

Even though he could have handled it better, I do think McMahon made the right decision at the time, although it's ironic that only a few months later, he'd lose HBK anyways. Ironic, although after hearing about how upset the Undertaker was at the screwjob, how close he was with Bret, and how he didn't like Michaels either at the time, I've always wondered if it wasn't just an accident when HBK hurt himself in that casket match...

but that's another story for another time.

 

[HoHo]

What I found out it was more of Bret leaving due to his age, he said he was in his 40's and wanted to have that security for his kids, who were still young at that point.He didn't really think about if the move was right, unless people were giving him information that everything was going to be ok.

 

[Atrue1onewo1f]

To who it may concern in regards to why bret did not want to drop the title in canada....if you watched the dvd you would have seen why Bret did not want to drop to shawn in canada... Bret specifically stated that "he would have dropped the title to anyone ...but Shawn" the reason being was because Shawn said he would never drop the title to Bret. Bret also noted that he was only gonna drop the belt to Shawn if shaw dropped it to him first.

Now then the reason Vince did not want Bret to retain the title was because he did not want Bret to pull an "Alundra Blaze". Also back at that time their shows were taped so could you imagine having your shows taping a world title match only to have the results spoiled by your competition just 3 minutes before your show airs? so why drop it the next night?

Now if bret did not Leave and he had in fact signed the biggest contract in WWE history...here is what I Think.....

It would be the same old story with shawn and bret.....I think the Attitude Era would have still been ushered in...But i think there would have been some tweeks. First off If bret was still here shawn would have never broke his back with taker, and I am sure to think that austin would not have been the man at 'mania XIV. Because, that would be the battleground for Shawn vs. bret...The Rubber Match!

 

[FlairFan2003]

Vince may have liked Brett personally but letting him remain champion when he was not under contract was very risky. It wasnt as if Nitro hadn't humilaited before having a taped Rick Rude appearing on RAW at the same time he was live on Nitro trashing everything WWE, or Lex Luger telling no one he would not re sign, working SummerSlam, then appearing on Nitro the very next evening.

Also remember, Vince had told Brett he didn't want to pay him, Vince would have had legit reason to worry that deep pocketed WCW would sweeten their offer and Brett might just trash the World Title on WCW TV.

Finally, Vince tried multiple times in the 80's to sign Ric Flair, who always maintained his allegiance to NWA/WCW, even after his longtime supporter Jim Crockett, Jr sold the company. After turning Vince down a couple times, Flair finally had enough when then WCW President Jim Herd tried to change his name, ordered him to cut his hair, tried to cut his salary by more than half, and promised him no TV time. The last straw being that the company owed him an estimated $20,000 for money he deposited for the gold championship belt (sort of insurance policy in case he damaged or lost it while touring as champion), money they refused to pay. When Vince offered him a significant pay increase, promised no major changes to his look or character, Flair let Vince parade that giant gold belt, the symbol of WCW, all over every WWE TV show for a month heralding his upcoming arrival. Fans booed WCW main events without Flair & Herd was fired oer the incident as WWE basically humilaited them all over television. Would a disgruntled Hart, fired over money issues, forced to watch a performer he personally did not like take his spot in the company, would he do the same thing, had he been pushed far enough by WWE to turn on them ?

In essence, short of asking Brett to extend his contract by a day or week and lose the title cleanly outside of Montreal (really, he couldnt lose in Canada, Triple H loses in Connecticut, Flair loses in North Carolina, HBK has lost in Texas) Vince did about the only thing he could have done.

As for the ratings if Brett stayed to lose the title or forfeit the next night on RAW it probably would not have meant much, WWE was pretty much getting waxed by Nitro all of 97, advertising Brett's forfeit or promoting another Hart-HBK match would not have made much difference.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

A couple things here:

- Bret pulling an "Alundra Blayze" was a real concern. Bret claims he never would have, and it's easy to believe he wouldn't have... but back in I believe '93, he was the IC champ and going through another contract renegotiation where he was playing WCW off of the WWF for a better deal. There were rumours at that time that if Bret did sign with WCW, he was going to bring the IC belt onto WCW TV. Whether that was true or not doesn't matter... some people in the business did believe it. If it wasn't for that, I'm sure McMahon would have felt more confident in Hart doing the right thing.
- the fact that RAW was taped didn't matter in this instance. They taped every other week, and the Ottawa RAW where he said he'd drop the belt was in fact live. Besides, as we all saw when Foley won the belt, WCW giving away results on Nitro didn't benefit them as long as RAW had a better story to tell.
- Rude appeared on both RAW and Nitro together AFTER Montreal. The entire reason he did was because of how he felt about the screwjob
- Hart was under contract until the end of November which always gets me with this entire thing. Survivor Series was at the start of the month that year. The only need there was to rush the belt off of Hart was because they wanted the title switch to happen on PPV. They very easily could have worked something later in the month in the US with someone other than Michaels that would have taken away all of Hart's excuses

 

[bitesthedust]

Interesting posts here.

Rather than commenting on who I think was right and wrong over Survivor Series 1997, I'll offer how I would have booked WWF at that time.

Having given Bret Hart permission to negotiate with WCW in September that year, I would have took the belt from him as soon as possible.

I'm not a fan of frequent title changes as this affects the drawing power of the belts, but at the same time I would protect my World title and take away any possibility of Hart showing on Nitro with it.

As Bret would refuse to drop the title to Shawn Michaels, citing the conversation with Shawn refusing to put him over, I would book the following events:

- Bret would drop the belt to Undertaker in October, after Badd Blood
(Michaels has won the the #1 contenders match at BB for World title match at Survivor Series (as in real life), but that would instead go to Mankind or Vader - one would challenge Michaels for that opportunity, as they were Taker's original SS opponent.)

- At Survivor Series, Bret would win clean against Shawn, Undertaker would retain against Vader or Mankind

- The following evening on Raw in Ottawa, Bret and Owen would wrestle to a no-contest in a tag match against Shawn and HHH, brawl would carry on as the show ended.

- Raw on November 17th, Michaels opens the show and challenges Hart to a loser leaves town match that night, in front of an American audience. Shawn wins clean against Bret - both wrestlers have put one the other over, Bret leaves WWF.

- Shawn is installed as #1 contender for the World title against Undertaker at the Royal Rumble, he regains the belt before dropping it to Steve Austin at WM 14.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

First, the Montreal Screwjob was a work... The only one who didn't know about it was Bret the Hitman Hart. Vince, Shawn, HHH, Earl, some of the agents all knew what they were going to do, just no one told Bret.

Moving on, DX was on fire and Shawn was drawing a lot of heat as the top heel. Austin was getting crazy pops and the fans were taking over, and Vince was also involved in the Austin story line playing the annoying adversary.

Bret had already agreed to leave. He didn't like nor approve of the direction of the company and didn't like Shawn, especially since Shawn took all Bret's heel heat. If he left on a good note, he still would've been gone when Owen did his thing and passed away. But who knows if he would have done that specific angle.

Bret would have had a better attitude going into WCW and maybe try to be more positive and play more of a role into getting his ideas across. If he didn't take that kick from Goldberg and Owen didn't die he very well could have come back to the WWF. Who knows if Michaels would have wrestled Taker in the casket match, or if he did decide to work it different and not hurt his back. He wouldn't have taken the years off to heal and get re-born. He was bad into pills and booze. If he still had the asshole attitude and drug issues he could have ended up another wrestling tragedy.

Well first, that would be why it was a SCREWJOB, and not a work. Because Hart wasn't in on it.

You bring up a good point about Michaels though. Without the screwjob, he likely doesn't fight Undertaker in that casket match... doesn't hurt his back... stays on the road and never turns his life around... and if he's alive today, he's probably just like Scott Hall.

The reason I say this is because even if Hart leaves on good terms, he was not dropping the belt to Shawn no matter what. He said so himself after Michaels famously said that he wouldn't put Hart over if the tables were turned. So without the screwjob, Hart's probably dropping the title to Shamrock (he seems like he was the logical choice for a transitional champ). Michaels likely ends up with the belt to go into Wrestlemania to fight Austin still... but instead of working a program with the Undertaker over it, he's now fighting Shamrock, and doesn't get injured.

I believe that would have happened, and also that Hart in WCW never would have reupped his contract right before Owen died, and would have ended up back in the WWF before that fateful night. With Bret in the WWF, Owen never does that stunt, and he's still with us today. Also with Bret back in the WWF, he's not working with Goldberg and doesn't get the mule kick that gave him the concussion.

The Mr. McMahon character might have still come into play at some point, but it doesn't happen as organically as it did, and probably doesn't become as big as it did as a result.

WCW still implodes, because it was just such a shitshow behind the scenes.

And there we have it. Without the screwjob, the Hart family's fortunes are probably much better, and the Michael's family fortunes are probably much worse.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

There are alot of if's in these scenarios, so let me answer them here. The only way the screwjob doesn't happen is if Vince never encourages Bret to seek out a deal with WCW, and if Shawn has no problem with losing to Bret. Now lets keep in mind that the major players at this time are: Bret, Shawn, Undertaker, Austin, Mankind and Shamrock.

So if Vince honors Bret's contract and Shawn has no problem working with Bret then the screwjob doesn't happen because they don't have a match at Survivor Series. Instead we probably get some Hart Foundation v DX survivor series match that serves to furthur the story between the two heading into WM XIV. Now before the Survivor Series match Michaels finds a way to interject and cost Bret the title against Taker. Along with the events of that years SummerSlam this is the jumping off point for there fued as everything that happens after this directly leads to there Mania rematch. After the Survivor Series, nothing between the groups is settled and the following month at the DX PPV Bret and Shawn have a #1 contender match for the Rumble which is laced with many run-ins and Shawn gets the dirty win. This sets up Michaels to win the title at the Rumble over Taker (minus the career threatning back injury) and Bret to win the Rumble by last eliminating Austin. So for 2 months we have the Bret v Shawn build to Mania with Bret getting the clean win by reversing Shawns sharpshooter into his own and Shawn tapping.

For the other top guys, Undertakers title reign would involve victories over guys like Mankind, Faarooq, Vader and so on. Ultimately though, Kane would cost him the title at Rumble to set up their match at Mania. Austin would have a longer IC title reign since he is not slated to win big at WM XIV. He holds the title until Mania where he drops it to The Rock who begins his mid card push the right way by beating Austin (albeit very dirty). After Mania Austin starts his main event push which would culminate at WM XV by beating then champ Bret.

After WM XIV Bret would go on to defend against the likes of Michaels, Taker and even Austin. It would be his program with Austin that leads Stone Cold to screw Bret out of the title after he couldn't take the title himself. After going away from Bret the title would bounce around with the likes of Michaels, Taker, Kane and Mankind in the hunt. Ultimately, Bret fins his way back sometime before the 99 Rumble, has a match against The Rock for the title at Rumble where he retains but starts Rock's push towards main event. Austin wins the Rumble and beats Bret at WM XV for the title.

 

[HBsam31]

I agree with the scenario above. It would have prolonged everything a bit, and Bret would have been at the top longer. Austin would have still be hugs, and so would the Rock. Nothing much would have changed, but it would have definitely got there a different way.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

Exactly. Bret said himself he only planned on wrestling a few more years (probably till around 2001 or 2002) and as long as Shawn doesn't blow out his back and is able to continue his career after WM XIV, then his career probably lasts about 5-7 years past Bret's and he hangs it up around 2007.

The best thing to come out of this scenario would be the natrual build of the attitude era's biggest stars. Guys like Austin and Rock would launch themselves against Bret and Trips would so the same against Shawn.

Also, with the prolonged rises of these guys, maybe The Rock's time in the WWE is prolonged as his star doesn't shine so bright so quickly and Hollywood isin't on his radar as quick as it was with this prolonged build.