10 years on Montreal Screwjob

[jimmy*cain]

bret hart gettin screwed was the best thing that couldof happened to wwe back in 97..
ppl started really hating vince n he turned that into money and ratings..

 

[beetle717]

Ok so you're saying Bret didn't want to do for Shawn what Shawn didn't want to do for Bret, so we have vindictive. Bret felt insulted and went out for revenge, that's ego, where is there anything in that that deserves respect?

Also, for the record, Bret has a terrible habit of lying so what he says shouldn't be taken as truth without independent corraboration.

 

[The Dungeon]

Not revenge...RESPECT!!!

Yeah, terrible habit of lying! RIGHT! Sorry, think you got Bret confused with Shawn!!

 

[beetle717]

Not revenge...RESPECT!!!

Yeah, terrible habit of lying! RIGHT! Sorry, think you got Bret confused with Shawn!!

Even Bret has said there was a revenge aspect ot it. If Bret doesn't lie then reconcile the fact that he has said it was because they were in Canada, and he has said it hasn't had anything to do with them being in Canada.

Doesn't one of those statements have to be a lie.

 

[reddevil69]

I don't agree that it's 100% hypocritical. I think Shawn based his reactions to Bret's reactions on what he knew at the time. If you don't have kids take it from someone who does, it changes you fundamentally. You begin to watch what you do thru the eyes of your child, you begin to question what they might think of your actions later. Shawn just didn't have the same perspective that he has now. Bret did. I'm not saying Bret should have done the racy stuff if he didn't want to, he shouldn't have had to. But that doesn't have anything to do with dropping the title.

And I can say I would have acted differently, I'm more the type to stick to my agreements and do what is required of me by my word, I honor what I sign up to do, Bret didn't. Neither did Vince but that doesn't make what Bret did any more rightous.

you should not have to have your own kids to realize that a vast majority of your audience is young,impressionable children and that there are just some things that are not acceptable to portray to them...that's the same as saying you want to be a decent person and treat people well because it'll get you into heaven...getting a reward is not a reason, you should treat people well regardless of what's in it for you...Bret's reasons then are just as valid as Shawn's are now, but when Bret didn't want to go along with some of the angle's, he was mocked for being difficult and unprofessional, he told Vince he wasn't coming to Raw and he was branded as difficult....if Shawn doesn't dig a certain angle he doesn't have to do it today in 2007, and he's the same age as Bret was back in 1997......this is one of the factors that led up to the whole break down between Bret and shawn...they already did not like each other, this just exacerbated the situation...i honestly think that now in 2007, Bret and Shawn are probably more alike then they would care to admit and i think that if they actually sat down together in a room they'd be able to bury the hatchet...and as far as Bret being a liar, as i've said before, you'd better take a long look at the line of wrestlers from Harley Race and Terry Funk to the Rock and Undertaker who have all voiced support for Bret.....Shawn has HHH(the biggest spin doctor of all) and the Harris(who?) twin's in his corner.

 

[beetle717]

you should not have to have your own kids to realize that a vast majority of your audience is young,impressionable children and that there are just some things that are not acceptable to portray to them...that's the same as saying you want to be a decent person and treat people well because it'll get you into heaven...getting a reward is not a reason, you should treat people well regardless of what's in it for you...Bret's reasons then are just as valid as Shawn's are now, but when Bret didn't want to go along with some of the angle's, he was mocked for being difficult and unprofessional, he told Vince he wasn't coming to Raw and he was branded as difficult....if Shawn doesn't dig a certain angle he doesn't have to do it today in 2007, and he's the same age as Bret was back in 1997......this is one of the factors that led up to the whole break down between Bret and shawn...they already did not like each other, this just exacerbated the situation...i honestly think that now in 2007, Bret and Shawn are probably more alike then they would care to admit and i think that if they actually sat down together in a room they'd be able to bury the hatchet...and as far as Bret being a liar, as i've said before, you'd better take a long look at the line of wrestlers from Harley Race and Terry Funk to the Rock and Undertaker who have all voiced support for Bret.....Shawn has HHH(the biggest spin doctor of all) and the Harris(who?) twin's in his corner.

I agree that you should treat people well at all times, but it's a fact that having kids changes who you are, as does age. Bret shouldn't have been branded as difficult for not falling in line with the racy angles, but Shawn's attitude at the time, and one I whole heartedly believe is that if parents don't want kids to see it, exert control over the remote and change the channel. I certainly do with my son if something is on TV he shouldn't see. But your argument about who backs who in the situation is irrelevant, it's like saying everyone else backs the theory that 2+2= Thomas Jefferson Sucka!!! (Thank you Rocky) It doesn't make it correct. Though I admit I laughed at the Harris Twins remark.

As I said with age often comes wisdom, HBK has admitted he was wrong, Vince has admitted he did wrong as well. Where is Bret's admission of guilt for his wrongdoings in the situation. That's the difference between being worthy of respect and not, admitting when you're wrong.

 

[The Dungeon]

But who says Bret was wrong?? You?? A lot of other people?? Sure! But Bret happens to think he was right by standing his ground!! And I happen to agree.

I think who backed the situation IS relevant, many who backed Bret are well respected throughout the business and in the lockeroom. The ones who backed Shawn were of course, Triple H, and Ron & Don Harris, or as I like to call them, crap & crappier!

 

[irisblake]

Dungeon, first, you’re not OWED a bonus, a bonus is just that, A BONUS! That’s why it’s called a BONUS!! You’re owed your salary, that’s what you work for. And no, you’re not owed anything more if you do your job the right way, you’re SUPPOSE to do the job the right way. That’s why you’re hired. Bret did a great job for the company and that’s why he was the champ and had a push to start with, that’s all he was owed. He wasn’t OWED the finish he wanted. It would’ve been nice of Vince to let him finish that way if he wanted to, but it wasn’t OWED to him.

I never mentioned Shawn in my post about Bret being a hero and a great moral man. I don’t believe ANY one of them should be your heroes and you shouldn’t look at a wrestling ring to find morality. I’m sure they ALL took drugs in one way or other. Your heroes should be your parents, your teachers, the cops and firefighters and people around you who do good every day, not some bulked up character in a ring.

I’m sure Bret had some legit beef with Shawn and that’s fine. We don’t always get along with our co-workers. But to not do your job the right way for it is inexcusable. You bring up Shawn’s past to defend Bret’s actions. But two wrongs don’t make a right. Bret’s ego and inability to separate personal problems with professional ones were the reason why this whole thing happened.

And I stand by my statement that the Screw-Job helped him with the casual fans. IMO, it was the single most memorable moment in wrestling history. It was great for wrestling, bret and WWF.

 

[beetle717]

But who says Bret was wrong?? You?? A lot of other people?? Sure! But Bret happens to think he was right by standing his ground!! And I happen to agree.

I think who backed the situation IS relevant, many who backed Bret are well respected throughout the business and in the lockeroom. The ones who backed Shawn were of course, Triple H, and Ron & Don Harris, or as I like to call them, crap & crappier!

While you're on target yet again with the Harris boys, who backed the situation doesn't matter because that was after the fact, except for HHH who was in on it from my understanding.

Bret was wrong because of what irisblake said, he had a job to do, he didn't do it, so he was forced. The fact is it was a fixed match in a fixed sport that everyone knew, Bret still pulled out he didn't want to lose in what was basically an athletic play. How is that not ego? How is that not arrogance?

Shawn is guilty of the same things, but that doesn't make Bret right, he wasn't standing up for anything of consequence just his own massive ego. At least when HBK played the political game, which is an unfortunate must in some proffessions, he was MAN enough to do it in the open and not try to hide it.

And irisblake is right, it helped Bret as much as anyone else.

 

[reddevil69]

I agree that you should treat people well at all times, but it's a fact that having kids changes who you are, as does age. Bret shouldn't have been branded as difficult for not falling in line with the racy angles, but Shawn's attitude at the time, and one I whole heartedly believe is that if parents don't want kids to see it, exert control over the remote and change the channel. I certainly do with my son if something is on TV he shouldn't see. But your argument about who backs who in the situation is irrelevant, it's like saying everyone else backs the theory that 2+2= Thomas Jefferson Sucka!!! (Thank you Rocky) It doesn't make it correct. Though I admit I laughed at the Harris Twins remark.

As I said with age often comes wisdom, HBK has admitted he was wrong, Vince has admitted he did wrong as well. Where is Bret's admission of guilt for his wrongdoings in the situation. That's the difference between being worthy of respect and not, admitting when you're wrong.

glad i could give you a chuckle...i think that HHH making that remark about the Harris boys backing them up on the new HBK dvd is laughable...as far as changing the remote goes, we both know it's not as simple as that...kids will still find a way to see the stuff when they are out of the house, at school, and now with youtube it's easier than ever...factor in wwe calendars, t-shirts that say suck it, the stuff was/is everywhere...Bret's point was that the Hitman character did not perpetuate deviant behaviour from a marketing standpoint, but he did acknowledge that he understood the business side of it and that it was creating controversy... ...again, it was a big factor in the head-butting between Shawn and Bret....and Bret has come out and said that he may have gone a little too far regarding what he said about Shawn and pushing the issues with him... IMO i don't think he'll ever apologize for the night in Montreal...

 

[The Dungeon]

Bret wasn't gaining any money from this. All he wanted was his self respect! i'd kind want that at my job too!

Look..nothing personal..but If i want to get a lecture of who my heroes whould be...I'll read a Phil Mushnick article!!!

What does his PAST have to do with anything??? When it happened it was the present...and that's what we're talking about here!!

Again..it was WRITTEN...Bret could leave how he wanted!! I've repeated my theory over and over and over about it! Which is why I think Bret was justified!!!.

And on a note to Beetle...I made damn sure that my parents were oblivous to what the product was becoming in late '97 and into the Attitude era!. Even at 15 years old, knowing my parents...they'd want the remote. But I had a TV in my room. And a lot of kids did then, and do today!

 

[beetle717]

Bret wasn't gaining any money from this. All he wanted was his self respect! i'd kind want that at my job too!

Look..nothing personal..but If i want to get a lecture of who my heroes whould be...I'll read a Phil Mushnick article!!!

What does his PAST have to do with anything??? When it happened it was the present...and that's what we're talking about here!!

Again..it was WRITTEN...Bret could leave how he wanted!! I've repeated my theory over and over and over about it! Which is why I think Bret was justified!!!.

And on a note to Beetle...I made damn sure that my parents were oblivous to what the product was becoming in late '97 and into the Attitude era!. Even at 15 years old, knowing my parents...they'd want the remote. But I had a TV in my room. And a lot of kids did then, and do today!

I can accept that kids lie to parents as you obviously did, but it is the parent's job to make sure they know what is going on in spite of that, if you can't trust your kid to follow the rules, yank the tv from the bedroom. It's as simple as monitoring the TV, as far as the outside stuff goes, I know how to setup a firewall on a router that can block any site I want, parents should do some research and find out how to do this. Then they should do the work involved in raising thier children to respect the values they hold. I respected my parents enough to follow the rules and do as told. Sure I slipped up but mostly I listened because my parents taught me respect.

It was WRITTEN that Bret had reasonable creative control. You all seem to think that means full control which just isn't so, Bret still had a job to do and that was to drop the belt with respect to HBK regardless of personal issues.

 

[raxton]

here is my theory on the screwjob, i know im going to get crucified but here goes, after the screwjob things went up and up for the wwe they bought out wcw and ecw and are now the powerhouse of sports entertainment.

The screwjob gave wwe the ratings they needed and they got it ten fold. In my opinion the screwjob is the perfect storyline where everyone knew what was going on and bret sold it pretty well by punching vince by breaking cameras and monitors, shawn also sold it well when he acted all shocked. Vince mcmahon is a genius and the screwjob for me will go down as the greatest storyline ever, because everyone still believes it was real, and that my friends is the whole point of a storyline you need to believe it.

 

[The Dungeon]

Bret was told..."You can leave anyway you want!". Before world leaked out of Bret leaving he said he'd drop the title to Shawn after getting through the weekend in the Canadian shows, and do it on a Raw, where the audience would be bigger! And he said he'd put Shawn over clean!

 

[irisblake]

Raxton, I like your theory. Of course we won't know for sure, but it makes perfect sense for all sides. It was great for everyone involved. Why else would Bret be allowed to distroy WWF property that costs thousands of dollars, all in the middle of a heated competition that was putting the company out of business. And IMO, it was the single greatest story-line in the history of wrestling.

 

[beetle717]

Bret was told..."You can leave anyway you want!". Before world leaked out of Bret leaving he said he'd drop the title to Shawn after getting through the weekend in the Canadian shows, and do it on a Raw, where the audience would be bigger! And he said he'd put Shawn over clean!

But by that time he had already agreed with Vince to put Shawn over clean and went back on his word. What would stop him from doing so again.

 

[raxton]

the screwjob altered the wwe's future i think if the screwjob never happened the attitude era would never of happened, and wcw would be king today. thats not the case though for all wwe fans it turned out pretty damn good.

why i like my theory if bret was screwed so badly, why would he accept a hall of fame induction i mean if my company f***d me over i would not accept any award from them, but again we will never know.

the screwjob alterd my life too, i mean back in those days that was the biggest storyline the most shocking and i think it made the whole world stand up and take proffesional wrestling serious.

 

[The Dungeon]

Bret never promised to put Shawn over clean at Survivor Series!! He said elsewhere. So no Bret didn't go back on his word! Nice try though...

When Bret had that disscussion with Shawn a couple weeks before the show, Bret still hadn't handed in his notice...and Bret said "I have no trouble putting you over, IF THAT'S WHAT VINCE WANTS TO DO", they obviously didn't know yet!!. Then of course we know how Shawn replied...

Bret never agreed or promised to put Shawn over at Survivor Series!! Bret still hadn't handed in his notice yet! It wasn't known at first before Nov.1st..when exactly Shawn was getting the belt!!.

I can't remember where I heard it...but I think Vince wanted to milk that feud as long as he could, because it drew big money!

 

[beetle717]

Bret never promised to put Shawn over clean at Survivor Series!! He said elsewhere. So no Bret didn't go back on his word! Nice try though...

When Bret had that disscussion with Shawn a couple weeks before the show, Bret still hadn't handed in his notice...and Bret said "I have no trouble putting you over, IF THAT'S WHAT VINCE WANTS TO DO", they obviously didn't know yet!!. Then of course we know how Shawn replied...

Bret never agreed or promised to put Shawn over at Survivor Series!! Bret still hadn't handed in his notice yet! It wasn't known at first before Nov.1st..when exactly Shawn was getting the belt!!.

I can't remember where I heard it...but I think Vince wanted to milk that feud as long as he could, because it drew big money!

Actually when Bret first launched his website he had what he called an accurate account of the screwjob and even said there that he agreed to put Shawn over at SS97. I think it was written by Meltzer but Bret said it was accurate. Then Shawn made the comments he made and Bret went back on his word. Reaction to Shawn or no Bret said one thing then did another and that my friend is the definition of a liar.

And for the record Vince did want Shawn to go over, so if Bret was an honest guy he would have just been a man and lost the fake fight.

 

[The Dungeon]

Ummm...I have that article on my computer and just read the whole thing! It doesen't say that ANYWHERE!! Bret NEVER agreed to do it!!

Bret also says so in his book!

 

[beetle717]

Ummm...I have that article on my computer and just read the whole thing! It doesen't say that ANYWHERE!! Bret NEVER agreed to do it!!

Bret also says so in his book!

If that's the case, my bad sorry. In any case though he told HBK he had no issues jobbing to him. So his refusal still makes him a liar. As does the fact that he didn't have full creative control, so his signed contract made him obligated to do as Vince said, after all not losing the title, which is not exactly reasonable being it is only a prop owned by the company, and the championship is scripted by said company. Bret was an actor who failed in his obligation to go with the script given to him.

 

[The Dungeon]

No that's not true either!!

He told HBK he had no issues jobbing to him BEFORE Vince even suggested Bret lose in Montreal. It hadn't been written yet...it wasn't scripted yet...so there ya go!. He told him man to man in conversation, that SAME convo where Shawn said he wouldn't do the same for him!! So Bret never promised anything, he said "If that's the route Vince wants to go, then I have no problems doing it", and Shawn said his jerkwad reply and we all know that.

And while there was a meeting with Vince later on, where it was decided Shawn was getting the title (and it wasn't decided when yet as Bret still hadn't handed in his notice), it still wasn't agreed upon WHERE it was going to happen, and Bret DIDN'T agree to it yet!!!.

So there ya go!

 

[beetle717]

No that's not true either!!

He told HBK he had no issues jobbing to him BEFORE Vince even suggested Bret lose in Montreal. It hadn't been written yet...it wasn't scripted yet...so there ya go!. He told him man to man in conversation, that SAME convo where Shawn said he wouldn't do the same for him!! So Bret never promised anything, he said "If that's the route Vince wants to go, then I have no problems doing it", and Shawn said his jerkwad reply and we all know that.

And while there was a meeting with Vince later on, where it was decided Shawn was getting the title (and it wasn't decided when yet as Bret still hadn't handed in his notice), it still wasn't agreed upon WHERE it was going to happen, and Bret DIDN'T agree to it yet!!!.

So there ya go!

Ok. So Bret told Shawn that he had no problem jobbing to him.

Then Bret said no I won't job to Shawn.

How does that not Bret's first statement a lie. It's relativley simple.

Second, Bret still had a commitment (his contract) to live up to. Since reasonable people will agree he had no real claim to the Belt (It's a prop owned by the company) he had no ground under his contract (reasonable creative control clause) to refuse to lose the title, he was obligated by his word, that being signing the contract, to drop the title. Unless you can present a reasonable scenario that would give Bret grounds to keep something that wasn't his, ie stealing the title.

 

[The Dungeon]

AGAIN!! Bret never PROMISED anything!! You're overlooking that! He never lied, Shawn said that comment, and it changed Bret's tune!!! He had no problem telling Shawn that!! I know it would've changed mine....and Bret NEVER gave Shawn his word...EVER!!.

Again, it was NOT decided WHERE it was going to be dropped, wether it be at Survivor Series, or the PPV after, it wasn't written yet, it was just decided VERBALLY by Vince! Then the day Bret handed his notice in, that was the day his creative control started, which is the day Vince said, "I need you to drop it in Montreal". That's when Bret refused!

Bret never promised anything to anybody! Never gave his word or anything!
Bret was willing to drop the belt, HIS WAY! To anyone other than Shawn, than decided, "Well ok, I'll drop it to Shawn but not in Montreal, then he'll have his belt, I'll have my self-respect". But then world leaked out he was leaving (deliberately IMO).

So the only one that lied and went back on his word was Vince!!!.
I'd also like to point out that giving your word and saying something are to different things!

And I know If I said i'd have no problem doing something for someone and they wouldn't do it for me, it would change my tune INSTANTLY!!!

 

[beetle717]

AGAIN!! Bret never PROMISED anything!! You're overlooking that! He never lied, Shawn said that comment, and it changed Bret's tune!!! He had no problem telling Shawn that!! I know it would've changed mine....and Bret NEVER gave Shawn his word...EVER!!.

Again, it was NOT decided WHERE it was going to be dropped, wether it be at Survivor Series, or the PPV after, it wasn't written yet, it was just decided VERBALLY by Vince! Then the day Bret handed his notice in, that was the day his creative control started, which is the day Vince said, "I need you to drop it in Montreal". That's when Bret refused!

Bret never promised anything to anybody! Never gave his word or anything!
Bret was willing to drop the belt, HIS WAY! To anyone other than Shawn, than decided, "Well ok, I'll drop it to Shawn but not in Montreal, then he'll have his belt, I'll have my self-respect". But then world leaked out he was leaving (deliberately IMO).

So the only one that lied and went back on his word was Vince!!!.
I'd also like to point out that giving your word and saying something are to different things!

And I know If I said i'd have no problem doing something for someone and they wouldn't do it for me, it would change my tune INSTANTLY!!!

He still said it, so it was a lie. It doesn't matter what Shawn did after that once he said he had no issues, something he said despite knowing Shawn's an ass, it was out he had an obligation as a man to follow thru with his word. Something he failed to do.

And yes saying you will do something is giving your word. As far as dropping it HIS WAY, what right does he have to dictate the terms on which he is going to use someone else's property? His creative control wasn't full, it was termed "reasonable creative control", even Bret admits that. Since he didn't want to act within reason, that being dropping the title he didn't own in the way the owner wanted, the screwjob was needed. Bret wasn't being unjustly buried, or even put in a position that would compromise his value. He was being asked to lose a fixed fight. It didn't hurt his earning possabilites or him physically in any way. He was still the better technical wrestler, and still going to get his huge WCW contract. So there was nothing unreasonable there for him to object to.