10 years on Montreal Screwjob | Page 6 | WrestleZone Forums

10 years on Montreal Screwjob

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Where is this myth coming from that Shawn had no undercard to work with. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the foundation of the Attitude Era was being laid while Shawn was on top in 1996.

In 1996 you had Undertaker vs. Mankind, a better under card feud here then Bret ever got while he was champion, plus Stone Cold Steve Austin beginning his push to the next level.

Not only that, but you had guys like Gold Dust, Ron Simmons, and Vader all debuting throughout the summer, on top of guys like Jarrett, Bulldog and Owen still within the company, so where does this myth that Michaels had no one to work with come from?

Jarrett was gone..
Ron Simmons hadn't come in yet..
Vader just wasn't getting over as a major heel
Bulldog just wasn't a maineventor who was thrown in the mainevent because there was no one else..
Steve Austin had just won KOTR and was just starting his rise to the top but had no one to wrestle..
Owen was out the first half with an injury... and again was never a draw and never a maineventor..
Mankind started right after Shawn won the title.. The Taker mankind fued didn't really take off til the BOileroom brawl at Summerslam

Here some examples of the great matches we were seeing in 96
King of the Ring 96
Bodydonnas vs The New Rockers... Hunter Herst Helmsley vs Aldo Montoya.. Steve Austin wins KOTR against old fat religious Jake the Snake. Smoking Guns vs The Godwins.. Ultimate Warrior beats Jerry Lawler in 3 mins...Mankind v Undertaker..Shawn Michaels vs Bulldog

IYH International Inncident
Justin Hawk Bradshaw vs Savio Vega.. Badydonnas vs Smoking Guns.. Mankind v Henry Godwinn.. Steve Austin v Mark Mero.. Taker vs Goldust
6man tag:Vader Owen.. Bulldog vs Shawn Sid Amhed Johnson.
 
I'm not trying to say that Shawn not drawing much was all his fault...but there were some fans who weren't ready for him yet, it's a fact!!!!

Vader IMO had huge heel heat, but the feud with him and Shawn was built up quite poorly! The 'Taker/Mankind feud had drawn huge interest long before the boiler room brawl! Yes Austin wasn't a star yet and wouldn't be until the Bret feud!.

But really, as lackluster as Shawn's undercard was...Bret may have had a bit more talent under him, granted...but the storylines were hokey and unbelievable at times.

Summerslam '94:
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (the top feud and draw in the company at the time).
Diesel vs. Razor Ramon (a top feud at the time with Shawn in the mix as well).
The Undertaker vs. The Underfaker (fans were glad to see 'Taker back, but this storyline was beyond terrible).
Tatanka vs. Lex Luger (Lex was still getting great reactions, but again his babyface pops were dying, and Tatanka as a heel was terrible IMO).
Mabel vs. Jeff Jarrett (Yeah...not to refute Jeff's talent...but he really wasn't getting over until the feud with Razor. And Mabel? Well yeah).
Alundra Blayze vs. Bull Naknao (fans were surprisingly into the match, but the Womens division got poor treatment).
Bam Bam & I.R.S. vs. The Headshrinkers (The shrinkers were not good babyfaces, and the I.R.S. gimmick was a dead horse, Bam Bam was still a great talent at this point).

I will grant you...talent wise...Bret had a good undercard...but angle and storyline wise, as well as character development for some (ie Jarrett), it still wasn't much to brag about!

Now Shawn still had a fair share of talent...but there was also a fair share of crap!!.

I persoanlly think that both Bret & Shawn did the best with what they had!
 
Jarrett was gone..
Ron Simmons hadn't come in yet..
Vader just wasn't getting over as a major heel
Bulldog just wasn't a maineventor who was thrown in the mainevent because there was no one else..
Steve Austin had just won KOTR and was just starting his rise to the top but had no one to wrestle..
Owen was out the first half with an injury... and again was never a draw and never a maineventor..
Mankind started right after Shawn won the title.. The Taker mankind fued didn't really take off til the BOileroom brawl at Summerslam

Here some examples of the great matches we were seeing in 96
King of the Ring 96
Bodydonnas vs The New Rockers... Hunter Herst Helmsley vs Aldo Montoya.. Steve Austin wins KOTR against old fat religious Jake the Snake. Smoking Guns vs The Godwins.. Ultimate Warrior beats Jerry Lawler in 3 mins...Mankind v Undertaker..Shawn Michaels vs Bulldog

IYH International Inncident
Justin Hawk Bradshaw vs Savio Vega.. Badydonnas vs Smoking Guns.. Mankind v Henry Godwinn.. Steve Austin v Mark Mero.. Taker vs Goldust
6man tag:Vader Owen.. Bulldog vs Shawn Sid Amhed Johnson.

Mankind attacked Taker the next night after Shawn won the belt....they were feuding for months before they got to Summerslam...what point do you think you're making?...that feud was a bigger draw than any of Shawns feuds during that time...Taker and Mankind fought on 5 PPV's!!!...that was a huge undercard draw....
 
Hmm...I went looking back on this thread and my whole post explaining my thoughts on why the screw job was a work was taken down....Interesting...

If any of you want me to post it again I will....I just found it interesting is all.

It's not taken down, you just didn't look back far enough. The problem with the conspiracy theory is, it's just a theory and there is no truth to it whatsoever. This Edit has been brought to you by Paul Bearer.
 
Couldn't be a worse analogy. The accusation itself is childish and if you even look at it with some level of objectivity it's just silly... The guy carrying the company of his shoulders for almost a year had a knee injury due to his incredible workrate and schedule.... and then misses months of work... risks losing his top spot while he's gone.. misses out of hundred of thousands of dollars... and his enemy sayes "he just didn't want to face me at wrestlemania" wow.. how was he not found out sooner... HBK guilty...CASE CLOSED you win..

Again...it wasn't JUST Bret saying this!

I finally figured it out.... At first I gave u the benifit of the doubt but you really don't know about this era... Wrestlemania XI the crowd turned on Diesel not HBK.. thats right.. the crowd turned on big tuff Big Daddy Cool and started cheering long hair ..earring wearing..chap wearing girl dancing Shawn Michaels... Shawn went in the heel and Diesel was the face and the crowd cheered for HBK..

Big tuff Diesel?? Give me a break...he was a white meat babyface...fans WANTED the big tuff Diesel character he was as a heel, that's the guy they were starting to cheer for in 1994, even Nash would be the first to tell you that!. He talks in a shoot interview what was wrong with the character! Yes, I do agree 100% that HBK had a very strong reaction going into that match, and it was noticable, however, it gets clearer as the match goes on and especially that spot which we've talked about, you can see it more clearly.

Oh of course... that wasn't a reaction for Shawn..it was just the antireaction for Bret.... I hope your just grasping at straws and don't really believe that..

I don't doubt for a second Shawn was popular! But don't downplay what Bret contributed to angle. That's all you've done is downplay him.

Attendance had been slowly dropping for years... pro wrestling was in a major downswing... coming off the boom of the 80's and Hulkamania.. Bret was part of that whole downswing although he and Shawn kept the company afloat.. But wrestling is cyclical... there are highs and lows and both performers experienced both..and as far as where did the fans go?? They went to WCW which was putting out a more fun edgier show with bigger names than Bret and Shawn.. maybe not better workers..but a better total package show... I think your living in this alternate 92-97 fantasy where Bret was Hogans successor drew huge numbers and everything was going just great..and then Bret handed the Belt to Shawn and everything went in the toilet.. Bret came back ratings improved and then Bret invented the attitude era..it just didn't happen that way..

Read one post where we said he drew huge numbers like Hogan??? And Bret was groomed to be Hogan's successor FYI, until Hogan refused to put him over!! Bret drew well...PERIOD! Not as much as Hogan did, or Austin or the Rock would later, but he did draw well, especially overseas!!. In 1995 business was getting bad, and in '96 it got worse. Were not entirely blaming Shawn for this...bad booking had a lot to do with it! And yes, it's a fact business went down when Shawn was champ...not opinion...FACT! Again, not ALL his afult. Ratings didn't improve drastically when Bret returned, you're absoloutely right, it wasn't until his heel turn, where things started going up for the company, ratings when up slightly, and house show's, PPV buys and everything else went up slowly but surely! And where did we say "Invented". All I said myself, was that he was one of the the founding fathers for it, his feud with Austin, and his heel turn which was different from any other were huge parts of it! Shawn is also a founding father there's no doubt about it. We didn't say Bret invented it...yet again, it's just you not giving the man his due.

This is getting tiring to be quite honest with you! Again...all you do jericho3150, is upplay one legacy, and downplay the other!

it may seem like myself and reddevil are doing the same thing, but we seem to be the only ones giving Bret his due here!! There's enough people on this board, giving Shawn his due.
 
Again...it wasn't JUST Bret saying this!

But because Bret and some others said it does that make it true?? How would Bret know if Shawn faked an injury?? How would anybody beside Shawn and his Doctors know if he was faking?? More than one person also said aliens landed in Roswell... more than one person said there were gunmen on the grassy knowl.. more than a few people believe 9/11 was an inside job..Richard Gere had a Gerbil up his asshole... but it still doesn't make it true.. it just makes the people who believe it look dumb..


Big tuff Diesel?? Give me a break...he was a white meat babyface...fans WANTED the big tuff Diesel character he was as a heel, that's the guy they were starting to cheer for in 1994, even Nash would be the first to tell you that!. He talks in a shoot interview what was wrong with the character! Yes, I do agree 100% that HBK had a very strong reaction going into that match, and it was noticable, however, it gets clearer as the match goes on and especially that spot which we've talked about, you can see it more clearly.

YES!!! Couldn't have put it better myself.... and that is just what happened to HBK at MSG.. people got sick of Shawn the "white meat babyface"... He got over doing one thing and WWF changed him to make him more fan friendly and killed everything fun and obnoxious about the character...


I don't doubt for a second Shawn was popular! But don't downplay what Bret contributed to angle. That's all you've done is downplay him.

All Im saying is that it's ridiculous to try to take away a big pop for HBK and try to claim it was only because of... sigh..Bret of course...


Read one post where we said he drew huge numbers like Hogan??? And Bret was groomed to be Hogan's successor FYI, until Hogan refused to put him over!! Bret drew well...PERIOD! Not as much as Hogan did, or Austin or the Rock would later, but he did draw well, especially overseas!!.


And where did we say "Invented". All I said myself, was that he was one of the the founding fathers for it, his feud with Austin, and his heel turn which was different from any other were huge parts of it! Shawn is also a founding father there's no doubt about it. We didn't say Bret invented it...yet again, it's just you not giving the man his due.

His due??Im not going to give someone their due for something they fought against tooth and nail... Would you concider King George a founding father of the United States of America?? Would you call Jefferson Davis a founding father of the amancipation of slaves?? No.. Bret was around for the period were things started rolling but the Attitude era happened in spite of Bret not because of him..

This is getting tiring to be quite honest with you! Again...all you do jericho3150, is upplay one legacy, and downplay the other!

I asked you before.. what am I leaving out of Brets legacy?? What has he done that I am completely overlooking... He was a great wrestler.. had some classic matches... He was the first guy to carry the company without over the top charisma and mic skills... was a great champion.. then it all ended pretty badly b/c of his own selfishness (IMO) went to WCW and kinda flopped.. kicked in the head..divorced..had a great HOF speech..


it may seem like myself and reddevil are doing the same thing, but we seem to be the only ones giving Bret his due here!! There's enough people on this board, giving Shawn his due.

Seems to me Bret fans take it as an insult whenever someone thinks that anyone was better than Bret.. I just happen to disagree with you on many points.. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.."that's that way because of Bret Hart".. I think he had some classics but I don't think he's had a huge lasting impact on the business... but maybe Im wrong..Please explain to me how Bret had more an impact on the business than HBK..
 
But because Bret and some others said it does that make it true?? How would Bret know if Shawn faked an injury?? How would anybody beside Shawn and his Doctors know if he was faking?? More than one person also said aliens landed in Roswell... more than one person said there were gunmen on the grassy knowl.. more than a few people believe 9/11 was an inside job..Richard Gere had a Gerbil up his asshole... but it still doesn't make it true.. it just makes the people who believe it look dumb..

But yet how do yo know he WASN'T faking? You have the opinion he wasn't....we have the opinion he did! So that's that. Dumb eh! Are you trying to piss me off and make this personal?? Lets stick to the subject pal...

YES!!! Couldn't have put it better myself.... and that is just what happened to HBK at MSG.. people got sick of Shawn the "white meat babyface"... He got over doing one thing and WWF changed him to make him more fan friendly and killed everything fun and obnoxious about the character...

Yes...that case is now closed...I agree.

All Im saying is that it's ridiculous to try to take away a big pop for HBK and try to claim it was only because of... sigh..Bret of course...

Fine...fair enough.

His due??Im not going to give someone their due for something they fought against tooth and nail... Would you concider King George a founding father of the United States of America?? Would you call Jefferson Davis a founding father of the amancipation of slaves?? No.. Bret was around for the period were things started rolling but the Attitude era happened in spite of Bret not because of him..

Again....not true!!! Bret was levereged OUT of the company, he didn't choose to fight against it! He was forced!!!. ANd I maintain that, a fact Vince has NEVER denied. But even Austin has said on numerous occasions, that his matches and feud with Bret helped the Attitude Era come along, Bret has said he may not have agreed with some of the antics Shawn was pulling in the D-X angle....but he knew the direction of the company was unavoidable it was a sign of the times....he said from a moral standpoint he couldn't understand it....but from a business one...he knew it was unavoidable! His heel turn was also different from most...and also helped usher it in! Just because he wasn't there for the peak of it....doesen't mean he didn't help usher it in! Shawn may not have been fighting against it....but he wasn't there for the peak either! So there you go!

I asked you before.. what am I leaving out of Brets legacy?? What has he done that I am completely overlooking... He was a great wrestler.. had some classic matches... He was the first guy to carry the company without over the top charisma and mic skills... was a great champion.. then it all ended pretty badly b/c of his own selfishness (IMO) went to WCW and kinda flopped.. kicked in the head..divorced..had a great HOF speech..

How about broke the glass ceiling down so smaller guys like...oh i don't know...SHAWN...could get a shot at the top!!!. Paid his dues all around the world....been involved in sticky situations and had to get out of them...born in a wrestling family which was anything but ordinary....climbed his way to the top without politicking....Was the first to show the WWF fans of that era, that WRESTLING and not JUST entertainment was a good way to go....had pure raw emotion in many of his feuds and made them seem real....was a great storyteller....and no, he didn't have SOME classic matches, he had a LOT...also overcame a stroke that could've paralyzed him....the drama his own family went through which is why I read an article on him called "The Survivor"..Selfishness??....Ok, I'm obviously not going to change your mind, but I'm going to give my input!!!!!! It was about RESPECT....! I don't find it selfish that someone stood up for himself because someone was disrespecting him.

FOr the record I agree about the analysis of Shawn's legacy to a POINT...but the greatest legacy of all time?? Hardly! Not sayign Bret's is either....

Seems to me Bret fans take it as an insult whenever someone thinks that anyone was better than Bret.. I just happen to disagree with you on many points.. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.."that's that way because of Bret Hart".. I think he had some classics but I don't think he's had a huge lasting impact on the business... but maybe Im wrong..Please explain to me how Bret had more an impact on the business than HBK..

Small guys being relied on to carry the ball....THAT'S because Bret Hart succeded with it! A fact VInce & even company man J.R. have acknowledged!!!. No huge lastign impact on the business??? HMM...DVD one of the all time top selling for WWE??? A fact they listed it in there OWN Magazine! A fact when he appears on a titantron during a WWE History Video, when I read a spoilers recap or something, his face on screen gets a HUGE pop in a lot of arenas!!!! Not just in Canada for the record...

More of an impact? I don't know....but had AN impact nonetheless...

Now again...the following I'm about to say, doesen't have anything to do with who's better...

But, it's something my buddy and I were talking about last night....if Bret faced Austin at WM14....with Tyson involved in everything....we honestly think it would've drawn even MORE interest...due to the history of there feud, and that Steve never beat him!!
 
But yet how do yo know he WASN'T faking? You have the opinion he wasn't....we have the opinion he did! So that's that. Dumb eh! Are you trying to piss me off and make this personal?? Lets stick to the subject pal...

Not trying to make it personal.. just my opinion that people who believe things based on nothing but rumors and speculation tend to sound dumb.... And the burdon of proof isn't on me to prove he had an injury.it's on you to say he didn't.. Shawn (the guy who had the injury) said he was injured and had surgery(which Shawn must be a great liar to get a surgion to perform an operation on a fake injury)..went to rehab and forfeited tons of money because of it.. The burden of proof is on the people saying he faked it...who happen to offer no proof and the only childish explaination given is "He just didn't want to lose to my favorite guy"


Again....not true!!! Bret was levereged OUT of the company, he didn't choose to fight against it! He was forced!!!. ANd I maintain that, a fact Vince has NEVER denied.

Im not saying in the sense that he fought against WWF when he was in WCW. But he was one of the if not the main guys who was against the new direction that according to him Shawn and Hunter were taking the company. And as far as leveraged out..I don't think thats a fair statement. WWF at the time was paying him huge money and Vince said Bret wasn't paying off financially.. WWF at the time was having trouble making payroll to the point that JR and others had to take some pay cuts so they could make payroll.. Vince asked Bret take a paycut and have the rest of his money given to him at a later time... Bret refused and WWF couldn't afford to keep him... I don't think it was as much a leveraging as you claim it was just business..


Just because he wasn't there for the peak of it....doesen't mean he didn't help usher it in! Shawn may not have been fighting against it....but he wasn't there for the peak either! So there you go!

Shawn didn't just not fight against it... He is credited as one of the main players in getting the WWF to go in that direction in the first place.. they got the company to completely change directions creativly and then he pushed the envelope further than anyone else before him or has since with what you could or couldn't do on TV... Thats why I concider him a real founding father of WWF attitude and unfortunatley he was around to reap the benifits of all his hard work with the huge paydays of 98-02.



How about broke the glass ceiling down so smaller guys like...oh i don't know...SHAWN...could get a shot at the top!!!.

I'll agree with he helped get away from the over the top characters. But he won the title from a guy who was the same size as him.. and Randy Savage was roughly the same size as well.. Now Bret looks back on his career and says "I wasn't one of the giants" but neither was Flair.. Savage ..Backlund.. who were all the same size..

Paid his dues all around the world....been involved in sticky situations and had to get out of them...born in a wrestling family which was anything but ordinary....

Agreed he payed his dues... what sticky situations are you speaking of??


climbed his way to the top without politicking....

Who says?? This is a small example but Bret at the last second at summerslam 92 convinced Bret to let him and Bulldog headline the show. The mainevent was supposed to be Warrior/Savage but they were replaced by Bret in his first big mainevent... I think Bret was very good at keeping his stuff under wraps were Michaels backstage shit was always stupidly out in the open..

Was the first to show the WWF fans of that era, that WRESTLING and not JUST entertainment was a good way to go....had pure raw emotion in many of his feuds and made them seem real....was a great storyteller....

So your saying he took the entertainment out of wrestling?? Just kidding.. I agree he showed that you could entertain fans with the matches and not just all the spectical..

and no, he didn't have SOME classic matches, he had a LOT...

Agreed

also overcame a stroke that could've paralyzed him....the drama his own family went through which is why I read an article on him called "The Survivor"..Selfishness??....Ok, I'm obviously not going to change your mind, but I'm going to give my input!!!!!! It was about RESPECT....! I don't find it selfish that someone stood up for himself because someone was disrespecting him.


FOr the record I agree about the analysis of Shawn's legacy to a POINT...but the greatest legacy of all time?? Hardly! Not sayign Bret's is either....

Thats fine.. please tell me who you think has a better legacy.. Shawns story is like a hollywood movie... Brets good to but I feel it belongs more on E! True Hollywood Story..



Small guys being relied on to carry the ball....THAT'S because Bret Hart succeded with it! A fact VInce & even company man J.R. have acknowledged!!!. No huge lastign impact on the business??? HMM...DVD one of the all time top selling for WWE??? A fact they listed it in there OWN Magazine! A fact when he appears on a titantron during a WWE History Video, when I read a spoilers recap or something, his face on screen gets a HUGE pop in a lot of arenas!!!! Not just in Canada for the record...More of an impact? I don't know....but had AN impact nonetheless...

I do disagree about the small guy thing as I've pointed out... And I aggree that he still would get a huge pop today BUT... To me all these things aren't impact on the business they are all based on memory. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.. "That reminds me of Bret Hart".. "If it wasn't for Bret we wouldn't have......."


Now again...the following I'm about to say, doesen't have anything to do with who's better...
But, it's something my buddy and I were talking about last night....if Bret faced Austin at WM14....with Tyson involved in everything....we honestly think it would've drawn even MORE interest...due to the history of there feud, and that Steve never beat him!!

I don't know if it would have drawn more being that WMXIV drew much much more than was ever anticipated to begin with.. But the storyline would have been great... They already had 2 great matches to build off of and the whole Bret never beat Austin thing... I don't know if Tyson would have blended in the storyline as smoothly with Bret though... Tyson joining DX was something big that made Sportcenter and the news.. would they have joined Tyson with the Hart foundation?? Would they have Tyson just hating Austin and having nothing to do with Hart?/.. It would have been VERY interesting and fun.. I just don't know what you do with Tyson that would work as well..
 
Not trying to make it personal.. just my opinion that people who believe things based on nothing but rumors and speculation tend to sound dumb.... And the burdon of proof isn't on me to prove he had an injury.it's on you to say he didn't.. Shawn (the guy who had the injury) said he was injured and had surgery(which Shawn must be a great liar to get a surgion to perform an operation on a fake injury)..went to rehab and forfeited tons of money because of it.. The burden of proof is on the people saying he faked it...who happen to offer no proof and the only childish explaination given is "He just didn't want to lose to my favorite guy"

He also didn't lose to Sid either!!! And I'm by no means a fan of him!

Im not saying in the sense that he fought against WWF when he was in WCW. But he was one of the if not the main guys who was against the new direction that according to him Shawn and Hunter were taking the company. And as far as leveraged out..I don't think thats a fair statement. WWF at the time was paying him huge money and Vince said Bret wasn't paying off financially.. WWF at the time was having trouble making payroll to the point that JR and others had to take some pay cuts so they could make payroll.. Vince asked Bret take a paycut and have the rest of his money given to him at a later time... Bret refused and WWF couldn't afford to keep him... I don't think it was as much a leveraging as you claim it was just business..

As I said before...Bret understood from a business standpoint...and did what he ahd to do, even though he didn't agree with ir morally. Remember he didn't want to leave!!!!! The contract Bret had was actually the most he was EVER paid, he wanted the deal that would set him for life, and for it to get cut, wasn't what he wanted! Again, It wasn't about money...if it was...Bret would've left in 1996!!. Vince had nothing really coming up for him! Bret still thought he had something to offer the business...he said, in a couple years, he'd have no problem steppign aside and putting the younger guys over...he said if he could today...he'd do it! And I find if funny, despite the "Financial Peril" claim as well....that he could afford Tyson two months later!

Shawn didn't just not fight against it... He is credited as one of the main players in getting the WWF to go in that direction in the first place.. they got the company to completely change directions creativly and then he pushed the envelope further than anyone else before him or has since with what you could or couldn't do on TV... Thats why I concider him a real founding father of WWF attitude and unfortunatley he was around to reap the benifits of all his hard work with the huge paydays of 98-02.

I do agree that in the "pushing the envelope" direction, Shawn & Hunter were major contributors and it was good for business. But the intense hatred of the Bret/Austin feud, the match at WM13, and the fact that Austin was heelish and people were cherring him, and Bret was being booed despite for fighting what was right...AND...the fact that Bret was only a heel in one country, pretty much were big parts of the "Shades of Grey" theory, which helped the Attitude era form! Shawn is a founding father...so is Bret if you ask me! Nobody else would've pulled that kind of turn off at that time.

Thats fine.. please tell me who you think has a better legacy.. Shawns story is like a hollywood movie... Brets good to but I feel it belongs more on E! True Hollywood Story..

I disagree...I think that the story of the Hart's in general would be a movie to say the least! Bret's life was interesting and had its ups and downs....from when he was born...until now!

I do disagree about the small guy thing as I've pointed out... And I aggree that he still would get a huge pop today BUT... To me all these things aren't impact on the business they are all based on memory. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.. "That reminds me of Bret Hart".. "If it wasn't for Bret we wouldn't have......."

What are you basing that on....Maybe YOU don't...but many people do! Benoit may have reminded people a lot of Dynamite Kid, but I do strongly believe in Canada especially, and also throughout the world, he was reminded of Bret. Again...if it wasn't for BRet Hart SUCCEEDING as Champion...I don't think Vince wold've gambled for the smaller guys who don't have the outrageous personalities, or even small guys in general. He still tried with the big guys (ie Nash, Sid) didn't work...only one that did really was 'Taker. Bret's success made the WWF realize, that hey, these small guys can do it!!! If Bret didn't succeed...not only would the smaller guys not get the chance, and Bret may not have had a legacy at all! Any master technician like Haas or Benjamin remind me a lot of Bret Hart personally....he's also influenced largely the generation (not saying all, but a vast majority) of Canadian wrestlers that have made it in the last 10 years.

I don't know if it would have drawn more being that WMXIV drew much much more than was ever anticipated to begin with.. But the storyline would have been great... They already had 2 great matches to build off of and the whole Bret never beat Austin thing... I don't know if Tyson would have blended in the storyline as smoothly with Bret though... Tyson joining DX was something big that made Sportcenter and the news.. would they have joined Tyson with the Hart foundation?? Would they have Tyson just hating Austin and having nothing to do with Hart?/.. It would have been VERY interesting and fun.. I just don't know what you do with Tyson that would work as well..

I think you can agree with me on this however...when I say that what I would've done if Bret was involved and not Shawn....I woud've done the "what side is Tyson on" storyline....he would hate Steve for obvious reasons...but not liek Bret for being anti-american! I think it would've worked to a T.

So your saying he took the entertainment out of wrestling?? Just kidding.. I agree he showed that you could entertain fans with the matches and not just all the spectical..

Thank you!
 
So you are telling me Mr. Paul Berrer that Vince just went and allowed Bret to completely destroy all of his equipment when Bret through that "tantrum" after the match?

You're telling me that Vince had no idea Bret would be wearing a mic when they had their meeting?

Watch every interview with Bret when he talks about Vince. He always seems to give him backhanded compliments.

This makes perfect sense that it was a work. It benifited both parties and sooner or later Vince or Bret will let us all know about it.

There have been wrestling angles that have gotten past the smart fans in the past. The Jerry Lawler/Andy Kaufman angle for example. Granted only 3 people in the world knew about it AND there was no internet back then, these things still can be pulled off.

I may not be right in my thoughts but you have to admit they do have some validity.
 
But because Bret and some others said it does that make it true?? How would Bret know if Shawn faked an injury?? How would anybody beside Shawn and his Doctors know if he was faking?? More than one person also said aliens landed in Roswell... more than one person said there were gunmen on the grassy knowl.. more than a few people believe 9/11 was an inside job..Richard Gere had a Gerbil up his asshole... but it still doesn't make it true.. it just makes the people who believe it look dumb..




YES!!! Couldn't have put it better myself.... and that is just what happened to HBK at MSG.. people got sick of Shawn the "white meat babyface"... He got over doing one thing and WWF changed him to make him more fan friendly and killed everything fun and obnoxious about the character...




All Im saying is that it's ridiculous to try to take away a big pop for HBK and try to claim it was only because of... sigh..Bret of course...







His due??Im not going to give someone their due for something they fought against tooth and nail... Would you concider King George a founding father of the United States of America?? Would you call Jefferson Davis a founding father of the amancipation of slaves?? No.. Bret was around for the period were things started rolling but the Attitude era happened in spite of Bret not because of him..



I asked you before.. what am I leaving out of Brets legacy?? What has he done that I am completely overlooking... He was a great wrestler.. had some classic matches... He was the first guy to carry the company without over the top charisma and mic skills... was a great champion.. then it all ended pretty badly b/c of his own selfishness (IMO) went to WCW and kinda flopped.. kicked in the head..divorced..had a great HOF speech..




Seems to me Bret fans take it as an insult whenever someone thinks that anyone was better than Bret.. I just happen to disagree with you on many points.. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.."that's that way because of Bret Hart".. I think he had some classics but I don't think he's had a huge lasting impact on the business... but maybe Im wrong..Please explain to me how Bret had more an impact on the business than HBK..

knock off the 'sigh Bret' bullshit...you and everyone else knows damn well that they could have had a fucking chimpanzee referee the Bret/Taker match and the monkey would have got a pop...Americans are the most patriotic people on the planet and Bret bashed the entire country right down from it's government to it's health care system...i'm not saying Shawn didn't have fans, but for you to insinuate that people oredered that PPV to see him ref a match is absolute bullshit...i'm meeting Bret Hart tomorrow night and i'll be talking to him about this very subject...he was the hottest heel the WWE had since Piper during 1997...he had legit heat in the USA and people hated him...Taker and Bret made that match not Shawn....
 
Not trying to make it personal.. just my opinion that people who believe things based on nothing but rumors and speculation tend to sound dumb.... And the burdon of proof isn't on me to prove he had an injury.it's on you to say he didn't.. Shawn (the guy who had the injury) said he was injured and had surgery(which Shawn must be a great liar to get a surgion to perform an operation on a fake injury)..went to rehab and forfeited tons of money because of it.. The burden of proof is on the people saying he faked it...who happen to offer no proof and the only childish explaination given is "He just didn't want to lose to my favorite guy"




Im not saying in the sense that he fought against WWF when he was in WCW. But he was one of the if not the main guys who was against the new direction that according to him Shawn and Hunter were taking the company. And as far as leveraged out..I don't think thats a fair statement. WWF at the time was paying him huge money and Vince said Bret wasn't paying off financially.. WWF at the time was having trouble making payroll to the point that JR and others had to take some pay cuts so they could make payroll.. Vince asked Bret take a paycut and have the rest of his money given to him at a later time... Bret refused and WWF couldn't afford to keep him... I don't think it was as much a leveraging as you claim it was just business..




Shawn didn't just not fight against it... He is credited as one of the main players in getting the WWF to go in that direction in the first place.. they got the company to completely change directions creativly and then he pushed the envelope further than anyone else before him or has since with what you could or couldn't do on TV... Thats why I concider him a real founding father of WWF attitude and unfortunatley he was around to reap the benifits of all his hard work with the huge paydays of 98-02.





I'll agree with he helped get away from the over the top characters. But he won the title from a guy who was the same size as him.. and Randy Savage was roughly the same size as well.. Now Bret looks back on his career and says "I wasn't one of the giants" but neither was Flair.. Savage ..Backlund.. who were all the same size..



Agreed he payed his dues... what sticky situations are you speaking of??




Who says?? This is a small example but Bret at the last second at summerslam 92 convinced Bret to let him and Bulldog headline the show. The mainevent was supposed to be Warrior/Savage but they were replaced by Bret in his first big mainevent... I think Bret was very good at keeping his stuff under wraps were Michaels backstage shit was always stupidly out in the open..



So your saying he took the entertainment out of wrestling?? Just kidding.. I agree he showed that you could entertain fans with the matches and not just all the spectical..



Agreed






Thats fine.. please tell me who you think has a better legacy.. Shawns story is like a hollywood movie... Brets good to but I feel it belongs more on E! True Hollywood Story..





I do disagree about the small guy thing as I've pointed out... And I aggree that he still would get a huge pop today BUT... To me all these things aren't impact on the business they are all based on memory. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.. "That reminds me of Bret Hart".. "If it wasn't for Bret we wouldn't have......."




I don't know if it would have drawn more being that WMXIV drew much much more than was ever anticipated to begin with.. But the storyline would have been great... They already had 2 great matches to build off of and the whole Bret never beat Austin thing... I don't know if Tyson would have blended in the storyline as smoothly with Bret though... Tyson joining DX was something big that made Sportcenter and the news.. would they have joined Tyson with the Hart foundation?? Would they have Tyson just hating Austin and having nothing to do with Hart?/.. It would have been VERY interesting and fun.. I just don't know what you do with Tyson that would work as well..

you're a tool if you think Bret politicked the Summerslam 1992 match...if he told his boss that he could steal the show, then fucking A right he should have gone on last and they did have the best match...and i personally think it was going to go last regardless because Bulldog was in his homeland....they deserved to be on last....politics has fuck all to do with it....the best man for the job gets the spot and that's what happened...NO ONE on that roster in1992 could deliver that caliber of match.....not Taker, not Flair, not Savage, not Warrior, and not Shawn....do you think it's a fucking coincidence that Shawn had his best match up to that point 2 months later against Bret at Survivor Series?....
 
Not trying to make it personal.. just my opinion that people who believe things based on nothing but rumors and speculation tend to sound dumb.... And the burdon of proof isn't on me to prove he had an injury.it's on you to say he didn't.. Shawn (the guy who had the injury) said he was injured and had surgery(which Shawn must be a great liar to get a surgion to perform an operation on a fake injury)..went to rehab and forfeited tons of money because of it.. The burden of proof is on the people saying he faked it...who happen to offer no proof and the only childish explaination given is "He just didn't want to lose to my favorite guy"




Im not saying in the sense that he fought against WWF when he was in WCW. But he was one of the if not the main guys who was against the new direction that according to him Shawn and Hunter were taking the company. And as far as leveraged out..I don't think thats a fair statement. WWF at the time was paying him huge money and Vince said Bret wasn't paying off financially.. WWF at the time was having trouble making payroll to the point that JR and others had to take some pay cuts so they could make payroll.. Vince asked Bret take a paycut and have the rest of his money given to him at a later time... Bret refused and WWF couldn't afford to keep him... I don't think it was as much a leveraging as you claim it was just business..




Shawn didn't just not fight against it... He is credited as one of the main players in getting the WWF to go in that direction in the first place.. they got the company to completely change directions creativly and then he pushed the envelope further than anyone else before him or has since with what you could or couldn't do on TV... Thats why I concider him a real founding father of WWF attitude and unfortunatley he was around to reap the benifits of all his hard work with the huge paydays of 98-02.





I'll agree with he helped get away from the over the top characters. But he won the title from a guy who was the same size as him.. and Randy Savage was roughly the same size as well.. Now Bret looks back on his career and says "I wasn't one of the giants" but neither was Flair.. Savage ..Backlund.. who were all the same size..



Agreed he payed his dues... what sticky situations are you speaking of??




Who says?? This is a small example but Bret at the last second at summerslam 92 convinced Bret to let him and Bulldog headline the show. The mainevent was supposed to be Warrior/Savage but they were replaced by Bret in his first big mainevent... I think Bret was very good at keeping his stuff under wraps were Michaels backstage shit was always stupidly out in the open..



So your saying he took the entertainment out of wrestling?? Just kidding.. I agree he showed that you could entertain fans with the matches and not just all the spectical..



Agreed






Thats fine.. please tell me who you think has a better legacy.. Shawns story is like a hollywood movie... Brets good to but I feel it belongs more on E! True Hollywood Story..





I do disagree about the small guy thing as I've pointed out... And I aggree that he still would get a huge pop today BUT... To me all these things aren't impact on the business they are all based on memory. I just don't look at wrestling today and say.. "That reminds me of Bret Hart".. "If it wasn't for Bret we wouldn't have......."




I don't know if it would have drawn more being that WMXIV drew much much more than was ever anticipated to begin with.. But the storyline would have been great... They already had 2 great matches to build off of and the whole Bret never beat Austin thing... I don't know if Tyson would have blended in the storyline as smoothly with Bret though... Tyson joining DX was something big that made Sportcenter and the news.. would they have joined Tyson with the Hart foundation?? Would they have Tyson just hating Austin and having nothing to do with Hart?/.. It would have been VERY interesting and fun.. I just don't know what you do with Tyson that would work as well..

they wouldn't have needed to bring in Tyson if Bret was working with Austin....Bret's huge international following would have ordered the PPV regardless....Vince could have saved the three million he paid Tyson, which, by the way is ridiculous when you consider that he told Bret that he was in finacial peril and 2 months later he has three million bucks to pay Tyson....i'm quite sure that none of the WWF performers got that kind of payoff for Wrestlemania...
 
He also didn't lose to Sid either!!! And I'm by no means a fan of him!

Sorry I just don't think it makes sense and you have to give Shawn the benifit of the doubt when he said he was injured and no one has ever come up with anything other than speculation...

If you called out of work because you were sick.. then you came back to work and someone who you didn't get along with and a few others were saying you were faking it what would you do??


As I said before...Bret understood from a business standpoint...and did what he ahd to do, even though he didn't agree with ir morally. Remember he didn't want to leave!!!!! The contract Bret had was actually the most he was EVER paid, he wanted the deal that would set him for life, and for it to get cut, wasn't what he wanted! Again, It wasn't about money...if it was...Bret would've left in 1996!!. Vince had nothing really coming up for him! Bret still thought he had something to offer the business...he said, in a couple years, he'd have no problem steppign aside and putting the younger guys over...he said if he could today...he'd do it! And I find if funny, despite the "Financial Peril" claim as well....that he could afford Tyson two months later!

But it ultimately comes down to money.. Bret leveraged WWF into giving himself a huge contract in 96 that they couldn't really afford because Bret didn't want to lose Bret. Bret could have taken the cut... I probably wouldn't have but if he was REALLY wanted to stay he could have taken the cut and the remaining money would have been payed when WWF got back on it's feet which was a gamble...

I do agree that in the "pushing the envelope" direction, Shawn & Hunter were major contributors and it was good for business. But the intense hatred of the Bret/Austin feud, the match at WM13, and the fact that Austin was heelish and people were cherring him, and Bret was being booed despite for fighting what was right...AND...the fact that Bret was only a heel in one country, pretty much were big parts of the "Shades of Grey" theory, which helped the Attitude era form!

Not to downplay it for u but the tweener thing with Austin kinda started after the Austin 3:16 speech a year earlier... What Bret did was take him and mold him into a legit main eventor...

I disagree...I think that the story of the Hart's in general would be a movie to say the least! Bret's life was interesting and had its ups and downs....from when he was born...until now!

He has had some ups and downs but it kinda ends on a series of downers...


What are you basing that on....Maybe YOU don't...but many people do! Benoit may have reminded people a lot of Dynamite Kid, but I do strongly believe in Canada especially, and also throughout the world, he was reminded of Bret.

Any master technician like Haas or Benjamin remind me a lot of Bret Hart personally....he's also influenced largely the generation (not saying all, but a vast majority) of Canadian wrestlers that have made it in the last 10 years.

Chris Benoit reminded me a lot of Bret... I actually thought Bret was a much better story teller.. I just don't agree with the smaller guy thing.. I don't think we'll look back in 20 30 years and say Bret Hart paved the way for that.. The business has changed so much from what the business was when Bret was on top... Benoit was the champ for a short time but his reign kinda flopped and went back to midcard.. I feel that Hogan..Warrior Andre were all about the spectical... Bret was all about the match... and I think Shawn blended the 2 and was having top quality matches in the main event but also had a bit of the showmanship to add..



I think you can agree with me on this however...when I say that what I would've done if Bret was involved and not Shawn....I woud've done the "what side is Tyson on" storyline....he would hate Steve for obvious reasons...but not liek Bret for being anti-american! I think it would've worked to a T.

It would have been great too....I love how the whole Tyson was a member of DX which gave them a lot of free publicity on the TV and the whole betrayal thing at the end was great. But the Hart vs Austin..which side would he choose thing would be great too.. however would WWF be able to afford to bring in Tyson had they kept Bret?
 
knock off the 'sigh Bret' bullshit...you and everyone else knows damn well that they could have had a fucking chimpanzee referee the Bret/Taker match and the monkey would have got a pop...Americans are the most patriotic people on the planet and Bret bashed the entire country right down from it's government to it's health care system...i'm not saying Shawn didn't have fans, but for you to insinuate that people oredered that PPV to see him ref a match is absolute bullshit...i'm meeting Bret Hart tomorrow night and i'll be talking to him about this very subject...he was the hottest heel the WWE had since Piper during 1997...he had legit heat in the USA and people hated him...Taker and Bret made that match not Shawn....

lol.. your fired up today.. Yes how could I be so blind,, yu could have put a chimp in with Bret and a dust pan as the guest ref.. The fans would have been on their feet b/c Bret is just that good....

And no Im not saying most people ordered the PPV to see Shawn ref but it did add a major point of interest... Brets fued with the Taker a very good.. but when you throw in the fact that Bret real life nemisis HBK is going to be in the same ring as a guess ref.. It just makes the main event much more interesting.... I'll take your other arguements but this one is just you being...a silly goose..pardon my language.

If Brets heat was SOOOOO massive that Shawn even being near him got him a big pop.. then why was Shawn involved the main event at summerslam mainevented Ground Zero..Badd Blood..One Night Only.. while Bret was Champion fighting in the undercard..
 
you're a tool if you think Bret politicked the Summerslam 1992 match...if he told his boss that he could steal the show, then fucking A right he should have gone on last and they did have the best match...and i personally think it was going to go last regardless because Bulldog was in his homeland....they deserved to be on last....politics has fuck all to do with it....the best man for the job gets the spot and that's what happened...NO ONE on that roster in1992 could deliver that caliber of match.....not Taker, not Flair, not Savage, not Warrior, and not Shawn....do you think it's a fucking coincidence that Shawn had his best match up to that point 2 months later against Bret at Survivor Series?....

Then call me a tool.. . It turned out great... But it was billed as the Warrior v Savage match. Bret came out from underneath and stole the mainevent spot from under them... And of course you answer is "big deal".. but of course had Shawn done that same thing to someone you would be accusing him of being an asshole and politicing to get himself in the main event.

This is another example which is completely unfounded but I feel that Bret was shady when he left in 96.. Bret lost to Shawn at WMXII and left to go on hiatus... When he left he was in negotiations to renegotiate his WWF contract.. He leveraged himself between WCW and WWF and played them against each other to get himself a great deal... he also left at a time when many other talent jumped ship and WWF could have really used him... and to top it all off he spent his time off trashing Shawn the current champion to all of his fans in the dirt sheets and in his weekly column in the sun.. Instead of Bret showing support for Shawn and helping the WWF Bret tried to keep his diehards and smarky readers on his side and turned them against Shawn... IMO if Shawn didn't do well and have the support of the fans Bret had more leverage in his contract negotiations to get more money to come back and save WWF...

I don't know why I wrote this to you... Dungeon would be a little more objective even though Im sure you'll both disagree.. again this is my totally unfounded theory..
 
they wouldn't have needed to bring in Tyson if Bret was working with Austin....Bret's huge international following would have ordered the PPV regardless....Vince could have saved the three million he paid Tyson, which, by the way is ridiculous when you consider that he told Bret that he was in finacial peril and 2 months later he has three million bucks to pay Tyson....i'm quite sure that none of the WWF performers got that kind of payoff for Wrestlemania...

But..but.. but.. Bret and Austin had a high profile fued that led into the year b4's wrestlemania... which turned out to be the single worst buyrate for a wrestlemania in the history of the company... it was a .77 buyrate the next lowest buyrate was 96 with a 1.2 buyrate... And you believe that Bret v Austin wouldn't even need Tyson?? Shawn vs Austin which got a 2.3 buyrate got a big boost from Tyson.. You really believe that Tys....oh forget it....
 
Speaking of WCW, i was watching the new Outsiders shoot interview and Kevin Nash pretty much said that Bret refusing to do something that would benefit he and Undertaker was the last straw that made him leave to WCW. He even said that the Undertaker yelled at Bret when they were discussing it because Bret kept asking what was in it for him. Of course it's kevin nash and not Bret saying it, so i'm sure it will make it hard to believe for some. This could be completely irrelavant in this conversation but i thought it was interesting anyway.
 
Then call me a tool.. . It turned out great... But it was billed as the Warrior v Savage match. Bret came out from underneath and stole the mainevent spot from under them... And of course you answer is "big deal".. but of course had Shawn done that same thing to someone you would be accusing him of being an asshole and politicing to get himself in the main event

That's obviously not an opinion based of facts!!! If you watched Bret's DVD, Vince asked him "Do you think you can steal the show?", Bret replied "Yes", and VInce said, "Alright you're on last". THAT'S THE STORY!!!! Warrior/Savage was there to draw the PPV buys, but really, what 80 000 people came to see was there homeland hero, Davey Boy Smith, go on last. And with the way the Warrior/Savage match ended, I think fans would've felt somewhat jipped!!! So no, there was no politicking...nice try though!

But..but.. but.. Bret and Austin had a high profile fued that led into the year b4's wrestlemania... which turned out to be the single worst buyrate for a wrestlemania in the history of the company... it was a .77 buyrate the next lowest buyrate was 96 with a 1.2 buyrate... And you believe that Bret v Austin wouldn't even need Tyson?? Shawn vs Austin which got a 2.3 buyrate got a big boost from Tyson.. You really believe that Tys....oh forget it....

Was there any other match on that card people cared about??? Everybody and there dog knew, that 'Taker was going over in the main event!!!. So why waste $40. But after word got out about the Bret/Austin match, the tape sales were phenomenal, as I've stated before!!. And I dunno how well it would've drawn without Iron Mike, with Bret & Steve, but lets also bear in mind, Steve in the span of WM13 to WM 14, went from Superstar, to Megastar!!!

This is another example which is completely unfounded but I feel that Bret was shady when he left in 96.. Bret lost to Shawn at WMXII and left to go on hiatus... When he left he was in negotiations to renegotiate his WWF contract.. He leveraged himself between WCW and WWF and played them against each other to get himself a great deal... he also left at a time when many other talent jumped ship and WWF could have really used him... and to top it all off he spent his time off trashing Shawn the current champion to all of his fans in the dirt sheets and in his weekly column in the sun.. Instead of Bret showing support for Shawn and helping the WWF Bret tried to keep his diehards and smarky readers on his side and turned them against Shawn... IMO if Shawn didn't do well and have the support of the fans Bret had more leverage in his contract negotiations to get more money to come back and save WWF...

That's just how the business works, you can't tell me the almighty HBK wouldnt've done the same thing!!! When two wrestling companies are fighting over you, you wait it out to see what they got!!. Bret's situation is more publicized, but do you honestly think he was the only one???

Lets get one thing straight...Bret was bashing Shawn the character...not the person....if he wanted to attacks Shawn personally he could've called him a "pill popping politician", Bret never made it personal! He never attacked Michael Hickenbottom, he attacked Shawn Michaels!!! And thanks to the pure hatred the feud portrayed on and off screen, it drew a monster number!!! And those bashing articles Bret did were meant to establish him as the heelish one in the feud, I don't recall anyone outside of Canada who turned on Shawn as of yet! But I saw Shawn come to Canada in 1996, and he didn't have much support, and chants of "We Want Bret" echoed during his match, and that was before the seeds of the "hatred" were planted! So there you go....
 
That's obviously not an opinion based of facts!!! If you watched Bret's DVD, Vince asked him "Do you think you can steal the show?", Bret replied "Yes", and VInce said, "Alright you're on last". THAT'S THE STORY!!!!

Wrong... Just watched to match sure i was right... Vince did not go up to Bret and ask if he could steal the show.. Bret says he went to Vince and convinced him that if they put them on last they would put on the greatest match of all time... and Vince said fine your on last then.. This was also on his shoot dvd too...


Warrior/Savage was there to draw the PPV buys, but really, what 80 000 people came to see was there homeland hero, Davey Boy Smith, go on last. And with the way the Warrior/Savage match ended, I think fans would've felt somewhat jipped!!! So no, there was no politicking...nice try though!

No doubt that was the better match but the double standard remains.. If anyone in the klique did the same thing it would be called poiticing and if Bret does it..it's ok..


Was there any other match on that card people cared about??? Everybody and there dog knew, that 'Taker was going over in the main event!!!. So why waste $40. But after word got out about the Bret/Austin match, the tape sales were phenomenal, as I've stated before!!. And I dunno how well it would've drawn without Iron Mike, with Bret & Steve, but lets also bear in mind, Steve in the span of WM13 to WM 14, went from Superstar, to Megastar!!!

You had Sid..Undertaker..Bret Hart and Steve Austin with special guest ref Ken Shamrock plus the wrestlemania name is a draw as well... It's wasn't some in your house PPV.. even though it drew less than some IYH PPVs.. I think Bret vs Austin III would have done well but trying to pretend like they would have been able to draw a 2.3 without Tyson is just a ridiculous speculation..


That's just how the business works, you can't tell me the almighty HBK wouldnt've done the same thing!!! When two wrestling companies are fighting over you, you wait it out to see what they got!!. Bret's situation is more publicized, but do you honestly think he was the only one???

Nope nothing wrong with trying to get more money.. but then don't try to be some super company man when your trying to suck more money out of a company that is very close to being put out of business...

Lets get one thing straight...Bret was bashing Shawn the character...not the person....if he wanted to attacks Shawn personally he could've called him a "pill popping politician", Bret never made it personal! He never attacked Michael Hickenbottom, he attacked Shawn Michaels!!! And thanks to the pure hatred the feud portrayed on and off screen, it drew a monster number!!! And those bashing articles Bret did were meant to establish him as the heelish one in the feud, I don't recall anyone outside of Canada who turned on Shawn as of yet! But I saw Shawn come to Canada in 1996, and he didn't have much support, and chants of "We Want Bret" echoed during his match, and that was before the seeds of the "hatred" were planted! So there you go....

Fine he was trashing Shawn the character... but the point remains that Bret Hart who had a large following is trying to trash the current champion of the company he supposably loves and turn his fans against Shawn(the character)... It just wasn't good for business... Also why was he building this heat between Shawn and himself and then still negotiating with WCW... ?? I think his whole I was just trying to build some heat thing is bullshit...
 
lol.. your fired up today.. Yes how could I be so blind,, yu could have put a chimp in with Bret and a dust pan as the guest ref.. The fans would have been on their feet b/c Bret is just that good....

And no Im not saying most people ordered the PPV to see Shawn ref but it did add a major point of interest... Brets fued with the Taker a very good.. but when you throw in the fact that Bret real life nemisis HBK is going to be in the same ring as a guess ref.. It just makes the main event much more interesting.... I'll take your other arguements but this one is just you being...a silly goose..pardon my language.

If Brets heat was SOOOOO massive that Shawn even being near him got him a big pop.. then why was Shawn involved the main event at summerslam mainevented Ground Zero..Badd Blood..One Night Only.. while Bret was Champion fighting in the undercard..

once again you're twisting my words...i said a chimp as the ref...TAKER AND BRET MADE THE MATCH, NOT SHAWN...you're dust pan reference makes it sound as if i was discrediting Taker, who happens to be my fave wrestler, and that's not what i said....it would not have mattered in the least if Shawn refereed that night or not...it did not affect the buy-rate...Bret was despised from coast to coast in America, and Taker at that point was THE most popular guy on the roster...Austin had not hit the ceiling just yet, and hardly any fans knew about the legit heat between Shawn and Bret because the internet was still not yet as influential on the industry as it is today...
 
Wrong... Just watched to match sure i was right... Vince did not go up to Bret and ask if he could steal the show.. Bret says he went to Vince and convinced him that if they put them on last they would put on the greatest match of all time... and Vince said fine your on last then.. This was also on his shoot dvd too...

My bad....accidental misquote. But I still don't see how he politicked his way ot be last! I'm not mad that Shawn went on last at Badd Blood '97, so I don't see what the big deal is? Bret never pissed and moaned about it, or threw a hissy fit! Bret gave Vince a suggestion and ran with it! But in the end, all Vince had to say was "no".

No doubt that was the better match but the double standard remains.. If anyone in the klique did the same thing it would be called poiticing and if Bret does it..it's ok..

But here's the difference, while that one night, Bret & Davey had the spotlight, on WWF TV, center stage was Warrior/Savage/Flair scenario. I remember Bret winning his 3rd championship...and it was Shawn & Diesel show...but before you get pissed...I'm not trying to say Shawn & Nash politicked that...but I'm just using an example!. And neither Warrior or Savage or even Flair who has no trouble bashing Bret...complained about that night at all, or Bret politicking, and those 3 aren't afraid to speak there minds!

Nope nothing wrong with trying to get more money.. but then don't try to be some super company man when your trying to suck more money out of a company that is very close to being put out of business...

Understand Bret had never had this happen before! He was interested, but I honestly think he knew where his heart was, and it was WWF. I would expect Shawn to do the same thing, and wouldn't blame him for 2 seconds! What are you talking about more money while going out of business?? Bret just wanted the deal he was promised!

Fine he was trashing Shawn the character... but the point remains that Bret Hart who had a large following is trying to trash the current champion of the company he supposably loves and turn his fans against Shawn(the character)... It just wasn't good for business... Also why was he building this heat between Shawn and himself and then still negotiating with WCW... ?? I think his whole I was just trying to build some heat thing is bullshit...

Hey...Shawn retaliated in promos, so in my opinion if Bret doing his thing makes him a bad person...it makes Shawn a bad person as well! Bret ran it by all parties involved, they were ok with it! Again, to a lot of fans, it made Bret a whiney man ex-champ with a chip on his shoulder, so if you asked me, it worked!!! And how was it not good for business...didn't Bret & Shawn draw the largest buyrate in 1997 for WWF??? The initial written ending for the feud was for Bret & Shawn to shake hands and let by gones be by gones, and both be babyfaces!.
 
Well, once again folks it's time for the game to cut through the old crap cake and tell it like it is. As for Bret Harts' impact on the wrestling world, I think fandom is attributing to much of the arguement. He was a superstar that the company built, and Vince McMahon created and developed. It is only because of Vince that Bret was anything so anyone who wants to say that Bret did this or that might want to think about the real end ofthe business not the things done for or by the character Bret "The Hitman" Hart. The only things I can seriously say and back about Bret is that he is and was a very skilled wrestler, true. He was a great worker, true. For the most part, he did what the company asked him to do, true. But he is not what some of you have built him up to be. One thing you must do is separate Bret Hart the character, from Bret Hart the person. The Character is this and that and the other thing. The man though is not the same.

There are a lot of people I see who want to tear down Shawn Michaels, and why ??? because in the history books he will always be better than Bret Hart, no matter what. And you know what ? I think he is betterthan Bret. Forget the pedigree of Bret Hart learning in the dungeon from his "legendary" father Stu Hart and yada yada yada. Shawn Michaels is the man, the only grand slam champion ever, has been a groundbreaking and inovative wrestler, and has also been very dependable. Whenever the company has needed a go to guy it's been Shawn except for the time when he was gone with the back injury he has been there and always pulled the company. And for those of you who talk so highly of Bret Hart doing his thing to put the company on his shoulders and so on, Shawn did it too, and more importantly Shawn Michaels did it in a more important time in wrestling history when the company needed a guy who would actually stick with the company, not sell out like Hall, Nash, and of course your guy Bret, He did. When WCW was creaming WWF in the ratings with the NWO and so on, it was Shawn Michaels carrying the company on his back wroking all the shows, taking all the hits, everything.

Here's a little food for thought for you who choose to back Bret so big. Any of you ever thought that maybe if the company and what was good for the business was Brets priority not just money, that his career with the WWF and in general wouldn't have went to crap ??? If he would have been faithfull to Vince, and to the company as Shawn was, maybe he wouldn't have had to drop the title to Shawn at all, maybe he could have dropped it to Austin, and maybe instead of being a traitor to the business Vince created by selling out to Vinces biggest rival in real life, a guy who was trying to put Vince out of business, all that wouldn't have happened at all. It is as Vince said " Bret Screwed Bret " and that's all there is to it. You want to talk about creative control and Bret this Bret that, no. He was more concerned about himself and so on, and didn't care if Vince was out of business tomorrow as long as Bret got his way. Too bad Bret, your boss, your friend, and the man whose livelyhood and business hang in the balance, the man who made you and the career you cherish so much asks you to put the business ahead of your own selfish desires and your own pride and you refuse because you don't like the guy you have to lose to, or because of location ??? Too bad Bret. What Bret did was unprofessional, and selfish, and damaged him, and the company because he didn't want to do his job. Like Triple H said in the heartbreak and triumph dvd, " Fuck him, He wasn't man enough to do business, so we did business for him " That's the way it is and no one should have to apologize for that. If he would have just done what he was asked he wouldn't have got screwed. And if he hadn't decided to leave the company he could have had creative control but he forfeited that when he signed with WCW. Anyone ever though too, that maybe if he did stay with WWF instead of going to WCW he wouldn't have suffered that career ending injury, and that he still might be wrestling, and he would have been used instead of how WCW destroyed his career and persona??? Exactly. Remember, always remember "Bret Screwed Bret"

How was Vince to know that Bret would really do what he said he was going to do, and why should Vince be answering to one of his employees huh ??? guess what, he's the boss, he makes the rules, it's his show his business his company. So what makes Bret so special that he gets to decide what is and isn't good for business. Suppose he did go to WCW with that title after Vince agreed to let him do things his way, what then ??? Then you'd all be saying what a shithead Bret is for screwing Vince, and how could he do that to the man who made his career ??? He put Vince in a bad place where he had to make a decision, he decided to protect his company. Bret was too arrogant, and selfish and probably jealous of Shawn to be a proffesional, his fault, no one elses. So someone else was going to get the spotlight, so a new champion was emerging, big deal. Grow up Bret, you can't always be king of the mountain, and get your way. He was jealous that Shawn was getting pushed and becomeing more popular and the fact the he wasn't looked at as one of the guys like the Clique. A great Wrestler? yes. a legend? yes. But he is no Shawn Michaels, he is not the Showstopper or The Main Event. Shawn is the greatest of all time hands down and will go down as just that for now and all time. No one can say any different, he has done it all, and did the right thing by sticking with the company and by sticking with Vince. Hart, felt money was more important than loyalty, and got exactly what he desreved and asked for. He got the same loyalty in return that he showed to Vince, and he got the money, then he got taken out by the worst wrestler to step in the ring ever Goldberg. That's what he got for making the move he did and I don't feel sorry for him. What happened happened as a result of his ego, and poor decision making. He bailed when Vince needed him most, Shawn didn't end of story. That's what separates the two, Shawn was willing to put the business ahead of hi personal beliefs, wants, desires, everything. And oh by the way Bret fans, he was a juicer, a big time steroid user, and he paid for that too. Shawn on the other hand, never did, never will. There's another thing that makes him just a better person and better wrestler.
 
Well, once again folks it's time for the game to cut through the old crap cake and tell it like it is. As for Bret Harts' impact on the wrestling world, I think fandom is attributing to much of the arguement. He was a superstar that the company built, and Vince McMahon created and developed. It is only because of Vince that Bret was anything so anyone who wants to say that Bret did this or that might want to think about the real end ofthe business not the things done for or by the character Bret "The Hitman" Hart. The only things I can seriously say and back about Bret is that he is and was a very skilled wrestler, true. He was a great worker, true. For the most part, he did what the company asked him to do, true. But he is not what some of you have built him up to be. One thing you must do is separate Bret Hart the character, from Bret Hart the person. The Character is this and that and the other thing. The man though is not the same.

There are a lot of people I see who want to tear down Shawn Michaels, and why ??? because in the history books he will always be better than Bret Hart, no matter what. And you know what ? I think he is betterthan Bret. Forget the pedigree of Bret Hart learning in the dungeon from his "legendary" father Stu Hart and yada yada yada. Shawn Michaels is the man, the only grand slam champion ever, has been a groundbreaking and inovative wrestler, and has also been very dependable. Whenever the company has needed a go to guy it's been Shawn except for the time when he was gone with the back injury he has been there and always pulled the company. And for those of you who talk so highly of Bret Hart doing his thing to put the company on his shoulders and so on, Shawn did it too, and more importantly Shawn Michaels did it in a more important time in wrestling history when the company needed a guy who would actually stick with the company, not sell out like Hall, Nash, and of course your guy Bret, He did. When WCW was creaming WWF in the ratings with the NWO and so on, it was Shawn Michaels carrying the company on his back wroking all the shows, taking all the hits, everything.

Here's a little food for thought for you who choose to back Bret so big. Any of you ever thought that maybe if the company and what was good for the business was Brets priority not just money, that his career with the WWF and in general wouldn't have went to crap ??? If he would have been faithfull to Vince, and to the company as Shawn was, maybe he wouldn't have had to drop the title to Shawn at all, maybe he could have dropped it to Austin, and maybe instead of being a traitor to the business Vince created by selling out to Vinces biggest rival in real life, a guy who was trying to put Vince out of business, all that wouldn't have happened at all. It is as Vince said " Bret Screwed Bret " and that's all there is to it. You want to talk about creative control and Bret this Bret that, no. He was more concerned about himself and so on, and didn't care if Vince was out of business tomorrow as long as Bret got his way. Too bad Bret, your boss, your friend, and the man whose livelyhood and business hang in the balance, the man who made you and the career you cherish so much asks you to put the business ahead of your own selfish desires and your own pride and you refuse because you don't like the guy you have to lose to, or because of location ??? Too bad Bret. What Bret did was unprofessional, and selfish, and damaged him, and the company because he didn't want to do his job. Like Triple H said in the heartbreak and triumph dvd, " Fuck him, He wasn't man enough to do business, so we did business for him " That's the way it is and no one should have to apologize for that. If he would have just done what he was asked he wouldn't have got screwed. And if he hadn't decided to leave the company he could have had creative control but he forfeited that when he signed with WCW. Anyone ever though too, that maybe if he did stay with WWF instead of going to WCW he wouldn't have suffered that career ending injury, and that he still might be wrestling, and he would have been used instead of how WCW destroyed his career and persona??? Exactly. Remember, always remember "Bret Screwed Bret"

How was Vince to know that Bret would really do what he said he was going to do, and why should Vince be answering to one of his employees huh ??? guess what, he's the boss, he makes the rules, it's his show his business his company. So what makes Bret so special that he gets to decide what is and isn't good for business. Suppose he did go to WCW with that title after Vince agreed to let him do things his way, what then ??? Then you'd all be saying what a shithead Bret is for screwing Vince, and how could he do that to the man who made his career ??? He put Vince in a bad place where he had to make a decision, he decided to protect his company. Bret was too arrogant, and selfish and probably jealous of Shawn to be a proffesional, his fault, no one elses. So someone else was going to get the spotlight, so a new champion was emerging, big deal. Grow up Bret, you can't always be king of the mountain, and get your way. He was jealous that Shawn was getting pushed and becomeing more popular and the fact the he wasn't looked at as one of the guys like the Clique. A great Wrestler? yes. a legend? yes. But he is no Shawn Michaels, he is not the Showstopper or The Main Event. Shawn is the greatest of all time hands down and will go down as just that for now and all time. No one can say any different, he has done it all, and did the right thing by sticking with the company and by sticking with Vince. Hart, felt money was more important than loyalty, and got exactly what he desreved and asked for. He got the same loyalty in return that he showed to Vince, and he got the money, then he got taken out by the worst wrestler to step in the ring ever Goldberg. That's what he got for making the move he did and I don't feel sorry for him. What happened happened as a result of his ego, and poor decision making. He bailed when Vince needed him most, Shawn didn't end of story. That's what separates the two, Shawn was willing to put the business ahead of hi personal beliefs, wants, desires, everything. And oh by the way Bret fans, he was a juicer, a big time steroid user, and he paid for that too. Shawn on the other hand, never did, never will. There's another thing that makes him just a better person and better wrestler.

you seem to have left out the part where Bret turned down 3 times the money from WCW to stick with Vince and the WWF a year earlier...
 
Bret's problem was he was too faithful and loyal to the company and it ended up hurting him! They never delivered what they promised If Bret really left for the money...he would've left the year before.

Bret was a big time juicer eh?? Funny, he only did steroids a few times in his career. You leave out the fact Shawn was a pill popping politician.

Also...yes Shawn did carry the company on his back, but so did Bret for nearly 4 years! Point???

Your basing the better person on who did drugs and who didn't? Well if were gonna do that...BRET'S the better person!!

And oh yes, I just LOVED Triple H 's comments on the DVD, full of B.S. and lies, which isn't a surprise. Bret was willing to do business, but he wanted to do it his way, it was a modest request. Trips also made the mistake of saying that Bret wanted to go out there on Raw the next night, NOT under contract, when the fact is, he was under contract until Nov.30th. Revisionist history at it's best!

ANd of course, I love how people criticize Bret for standing his ground at Survivor Series, and NOBODY criticizes Shawn for his actions at WM14. His actions leading up too that match was ok huh?? Gimmie a break!. Shawn may not have been leaving for the competition, but he was still leaving nonetheless and would've hurt the company!

Shawn is and was great...but your post "Game" is a joke!! I agree with a lot of the stuff you said about Shawn of how great he is, but I can't very well sit here and let you and some of these other idiots, try to downplay the legacy of a great wrestler! And Shawn may be a better person NOWADAYS, but back then, do you honestly think he was a good person??
 

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