WWE RAW 9/5/2011 - Surely All These Pipe Bombs Are Illegal?

[Big Sexy]

And yet he was still squashed by Cena last week. Up an comers don't get squashed in five minutes. Truth is an up and comer, Del Rio is an up and comer, Sheamus is an up and comer... Barrett still needs to prove himself... just like Slater.

There are worse things then getting squashed by the biggest star in the company. Just a few weeks ago he had a victory at arguably the second biggest ppv of the year. He is light years ahead of Slater in every way possible.

 

[Bernkastel]

There are worse things then getting squashed by the biggest star in the company. Just a few weeks ago he had a victory at arguably the second biggest ppv of the year. He is light years ahead of Slater in every way possible.

But at the same time getting squashed by the biggest star in the company doesn't do anything for the character.

Barrett might reach the main event before Slater, or he could be fired next year. Slater on the other hand could find his niche six months from now.

They are both in the same boat.

 

[The Crock]

I'm not misusing the term. Mysterio, Kane, and Punk can't draw like Cena, but they've all been in the company for more than half a decade.

Sheamus hasn't been in the company 3 years, and this is his first month as a face... he's an up and coming face that way.

Del Rio is a heel, so it's a bit different. Del Rio should have won the title off of Cena like Miz did, and elevated himself that way. Del Rio is now the champion, and he hasn't had that breakout feud to really cement his reputation.

You shouldn't use up and coming with face and heel, that term really encompasses their whole stature in the company and they aren't up and comers. They're both World Champions, former champ in Sheamus' case, that's the top (if you want to look at it that way). Where else do they have left to go? Sure, they'll be bigger stars later, but in terms of where they are on the card and their main event status? They're at the top.

...Miz won the title off of Orton. He cashed in Money in the Bank, LIKE DEL RIO. I get what you're saying, he needs Cena to do to him what he did to Edge when Edge first cashed in, but he's already fairly established without it. He won the Royal Rumble, main evented PPVs, fought for the World Title multiple times, including a match at 'Mania. He's already fairly solid.

 

[Big Sexy]

But at the same time getting squashed by the biggest star in the company doesn't do anything for the character.

Barrett might reach the main event before Slater, or he could be fired next year. Slater on the other hand could find his niche six months from now.

They are both in the same boat.

Actually, they aren't. At all. Basically you are saying every single young superstar in the WWE that isn't already a main event guy is in the exact same position which makes no sense. Barrett is seen of TV every week, he fights at virtually every ppv, he is constantly in feuds, and he has shown signs of main event potential. Slater is none of that and has shown no signs of being that.

 

[Bernkastel]

You shouldn't use up and coming with face and heel, that term really encompasses their whole stature in the company and they aren't up and comers. They're both World Champions, former champ in Sheamus' case, that's the top (if you want to look at it that way). Where else do they have left to go? Sure, they'll be bigger stars later, but in terms of where they are on the card and their main event status? They're at the top.

So you're saying that Sheamus and Punk are on the same level as Cena and Orton. Because it's clear that they're not...

They are up and coming, because they aren't at the top of the mountain yet.

...Miz won the title off of Orton. He cashed in Money in the Bank, LIKE DEL RIO. I get what you're saying, he needs Cena to do to him what he did to Edge when Edge first cashed in, but he's already fairly established without it. He won the Royal Rumble, main evented PPVs, fought for the World Title multiple times, including a match at 'Mania. He's already fairly solid.

I don't think so. Cena looks stronger going into the PPV, and it's supposed to be the opposite. Any well established heel always looks dominant going into a major fight. Del Rio looks like the underdog because he isn't a well established heel.

 

[Bernkastel]

Actually, they aren't. At all. Basically you are saying every single young superstar in the WWE that isn't already a main event guy is in the exact same position which makes no sense. Barrett is seen of TV every week, he fights at virtually every ppv, he is constantly in feuds, and he has shown signs of main event potential. Slater is none of that and has shown no signs of being that.

Wrong. That's why WWE has a main event, a mid card, and a low card. Barrett was in the mid card a few months ago with The Corre, and the IC title. But he lost those, and was sent back down to the low card.

Mid carders are guys like Ziggler, Swagger, Truth, and Rhodes. Mid carders don't get squashed like Barrett did last week.

Barrett is in the low card, Slater is in the low card, thus they are on the same level.

 

[The Crock]

So you're saying that Sheamus and Punk are on the same level as Cena and Orton. Because it's clear that they're not...

They are up and coming, because they aren't at the top of the mountain yet.

Wait, you mean Orton, the face of Smackdown, and Cena, the face of Raw and the WWE as a whole? So, what you're saying is that they're up and comers if they never reach that level? Wow. There are a plethora of guys out there who are not at the top of the mountain and aren't up and comers, much like Sheamus and Del Rio.

Was Cena an up and comer in '07? Was The Rock an up and comer in '99? No. Neither of them had reached their maximum potential, but they were no longer considered "up and comers," they were legitimate main eventers... Kinda like Sheamus and Del Rio!

I don't think so. Cena looks stronger going into the PPV, and it's supposed to be the opposite. Any well established heel always looks dominant going into a major fight. Del Rio looks like the underdog because he isn't a well established heel.

You're right, the guy that beat CM Punk via a distraction from Kevin Nash and got beaten down by the champion certainly looks like the favorite here.

Heels don't always look dominant, are we both even talking about the same thing here?! Del Rio isn't Batista or Brock Lesnar where he leaves a trail of destruction and asserts his dominance, no... He's a smart, manipulative heel, as he showed tonight by getting all those people to go after Cena.

 

[Bernkastel]

Wait, you mean Orton, the face of Smackdown, and Cena, the face of Raw and the WWE as a whole? So, what you're saying is that they're up and comers if they never reach that level? Wow. There are a plethora of guys out there who are not at the top of the mountain and aren't up and comers, much like Sheamus and Del Rio.

Was Cena an up and comer in '07? Was The Rock an up and comer in '99? No. Neither of them had reached their maximum potential, but they were no longer considered "up and comers," they were legitimate main eventers... Kinda like Sheamus and Del Rio!

What part did I write did you not understand? I meant what I said.

You are refering to the idea of an upper mid card, which I think is pointless to have. The WWE is always taking and supplementing talent from the midcard, especially heels.

The main event simply consists simply of the top face and the top heel at that time. Everyone else is pretty much an up and comer.

Cena and Orton are the top two faces in the company... the main event. Punk and Sheamus are great, but as good as the former.

You're right, the guy that beat CM Punk via a distraction from Kevin Nash and got beaten down by the champion certainly looks like the favorite here.

Heels don't always look dominant, are we both even talking about the same thing here?! Del Rio isn't Batista or Brock Lesnar where he leaves a trail of destruction and asserts his dominance, no... He's a smart, manipulative heel, as he showed tonight by getting all those people to go after Cena.

Cena looks like the favorite going in because Del Rio hasn't actually proven he can take him. He attacked Cena after one of his matches, and then had a group of lesser heels beat him down.

That's not showing the WWE universe that he can take Cena. Unless Del Rio pins Cena clean at the PPV, Del Rio's still going to look weak.

Heel's don't necessarily have to be like Mark Henry or kane in order to be dominant.

Cowardly heels like Edge and Jericho were also dominant because they showed that they could beat their opponents using any means necessary. Any face opposing them at PPV's were underdogs, because the crowd was unsure that they could win.

 

[Smartie]

Well Call me a kid , a horny girl, or whatever you want that was one of those nights that only Cena entertained me.

I always try to be respectful when I talk to Cena haters but I think after this show I'm entitled to tell all of those haters to fuck off.

Cena is the best EVEEEEEEEEEEER. It's been 8 consecutive years that he's been entertaining on a weekly basis and NO ONE in the history of wrestling has done that.

I bet my whole life that If you ask Vince who's the best employee you ever had, he will tell you CENA.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Hmm... WCW once said the same thing about Steve Austin.

You just compared Heath Slater to Steve Austin...I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Very meh show last night. Very little was advanced and I felt no disappointment that I ended up sleeping through it.

 

[Барбоса]

Decent main event even if it did reek of being thrown together. Del Rio should have been in the match though, if only to see him get the better of Cena in some way perhaps getting him counted out. As it is right now, Del Rio looks like a massive underdog, although I still expect him to retain.

Also had Del Rio been included, we would not have been teased with the potential for a feud between Sheamus and Christian

 

[TLC]

Mid carders are guys like Ziggler, Swagger, Truth, and Rhodes. Mid carders don't get squashed like Barrett did last week.

Barrett is in the low card, Slater is in the low card, thus they are on the same level.

Sorry but this is bull shit. Jack Swagger got squashed by Cena the other week yet you still consider him a mid carder. Wade Barrett in not in the lower card, at all. Barrett is shown on tv almost every week, actually wins matches and is put on PPV. He beat Daniel Bryan at Summerslam for fuck sake who could potentially be a world champion this time next year.

There is a clear difference between Barrett and Slater. I have no idea how you could argue otherwise.


Anyway, onto the show. Pretty crappy show. I groaned when Nash sent himself the text...

 

[Slyfox696]

Jack Swagger got squashed by Cena the other week yet you still consider him a mid carder.

How did Swagger get squashed? If I remember, it was a very competitive match which Swagger controlled a good portion of. How was that a squash?

The reason I ask is because I'm sure it in some way matters to the other debate, but I don't want to read the other debate.

Anyway, onto the show. Pretty crappy show. I groaned when Nash sent himself the text...

Yup.

 

[The Crock]

What part did I write did you not understand? I meant what I said.

You are refering to the idea of an upper mid card, which I think is pointless to have. The WWE is always taking and supplementing talent from the midcard, especially heels.

The main event simply consists simply of the top face and the top heel at that time. Everyone else is pretty much an up and comer.

Cena and Orton are the top two faces in the company... the main event. Punk and Sheamus are great, but as good as the former.

Undertaker has arguably never been the top face or heel... So does he count as a career up and comer? Your logic is severely flawed.

Cena looks like the favorite going in because Del Rio hasn't actually proven he can take him. He attacked Cena after one of his matches, and then had a group of lesser heels beat him down.

That's not showing the WWE universe that he can take Cena. Unless Del Rio pins Cena clean at the PPV, Del Rio's still going to look weak.

Heel's don't necessarily have to be like Mark Henry or kane in order to be dominant.

Cowardly heels like Edge and Jericho were also dominant because they showed that they could beat their opponents using any means necessary. Any face opposing them at PPV's were underdogs, because the crowd was unsure that they could win.

You have no understanding of Alberto Del Rio's character, for one. Think about it, he managed to manipulate all those guys into coming after Cena, what's to say he doesn't do it again? Hell, he has proven he can beat top level competition, Mysterio for example. I certainly think that people see him as a threat, I think people are quite unsure if Cena can win, actually.

Edge and Jericho were reliant on screwing their opponents out of the win. Often they looked weaker going into title defenses, but they still found a way.

You're completely dismissing Del Rio because you have a flawed idea as to how professional wrestling works. Yes, Cena is the top gun, but Del Rio has proven himself more than competent to pull out a favorable result.

 

[JGlass]

Hmm... WCW once said the same thing about Steve Austin.

I don't think anyone in WCW said that about Austin.

 

[Bernkastel]

Undertaker has arguably never been the top face or heel... So does he count as a career up and comer? Your logic is severely flawed.

This is false, Undertaker was the top face throughout 2007 when he held the WHC. He was classified as a main eventer then...

You have no understanding of Alberto Del Rio's character, for one. Think about it, he managed to manipulate all those guys into coming after Cena, what's to say he doesn't do it again?

That makes him look weak as a champion, that he has to have an army behind him in order to defeat the challenger.

Hell, he has proven he can beat top level competition, Mysterio for example. I certainly think that people see him as a threat, I think people are quite unsure if Cena can win, actually.

He hasn't proven he can beat John Cena though, every single person and their mother are expecting Cena to kick Del Rio's ass at NOC.

Del Rio is the underdog.

You're completely dismissing Del Rio because you have a flawed idea as to how professional wrestling works. Yes, Cena is the top gun, but Del Rio has proven himself more than competent to pull out a favorable result.

I'm dismissing Del Rio because he's the underdog. Top heels aren't supposed to be the underdogs going into a major feud. It's supposed to look like the face can't beat them. If Del Rio pins Cena clean, it'll be classified as an upset, but it should be the other way around.

I think you've forgotten what we were agruing about in the first place.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

This is false, Undertaker was the top face throughout 2007 when he held the WHC. He was classified as a main eventer then...

 

[Bernkastel]

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Yes, Batista was the most consistent main eventer on SmackDown having held the championship for 6 of the 12 months of 2007.

 

[Coco]

If you think a heel looking weaker than a face is a problem for Del Rio, you must have hated Ric Flair's booking over most of his career.

 

[Bernkastel]

Yes, Batista was the most consistent main eventer on SmackDown having held the championship for 6 of the 12 months of 2007.

You're right, Undertaker did chase the title throughout most of 2007 and 2008 if not to Batista, then Edge. I guess Undertaker was just an up and comer then.

 

[Bernkastel]

If you think a heel looking weaker than a face is a problem for Del Rio, you must have hated Ric Flair's booking over most of his career.

Actually I did...

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

You're right, Undertaker did chase the title throughout most of 2007 and 2008 if not to Batista, then Edge. I guess Undertaker was just an up and comer then.

Well, you said it not me.

 

[Bernkastel]

Well, you said it not me.

But you proved it. I guess it's true.

 

[Coco]

Actually I did...

Look, I'd love to see Del Rio cause Cena to tap out clean leading to a slow-burn Cena heel turn that builds on the end of MITB and causes him to question the very fabric of his being. I think that'd be sweet. But I also understand the appeal of the heel slipping out by the skin of his teeth and letting fans hold onto the idea that their guy could be a rightful champion. The formula is popular because it works. We'd like to see something else, but this isn't wrong.