WCW Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (2) Andre The Giant vs. (11) CM Punk

[klunderbunker]

Another thing I'd like an explanation on: if Andre starts to climb, what in the world is going to stop him?

Punk can't shove the ladder over. His kicks are going to bounce off of Andre. Hacksaw Jim Duggan broke the 2x4 over Andre's back once and Andre just glared at him so weapon shots are out. Andre's head is harder than most rocks so that isn't going to get Punk anywhere.

How can Punk stop him if Andre starts climbing?

 

[pumpkinking8987]

little jerry lawler

Choosing the greater wrestler is totally stupid in a tournament to determine who is the greatest wrestler. Right.

Klunderbunker

The problem with that is there's almost nothing Punk can do to put Andre down. It took 1987 Hulk Hogan to put down Andre when Andre was a shell of himself. CM Punk is no Hulk Hogan, and he has no chance here.

1: WE are not voting for the greatest wrestler's in this tourney. If we were the there is no way that Sting gets out of the first round against ED LEWIS.

2: I dont remember Hogan hitting Andre with chair shot after chair shot. while C.M. Punk is no Hogan he is not bound by the standards the WWE had in the 1980's

3: I have never seen Andre in a Ladder Match. I have seen a "Mid-Card Punk" like Finley said kick major ass in Ladder Matches.

4: Andre had what 1 WWE title reign for like 10 minutes, C.M. Punk has defeated the FACE OF THE COMPANY in a big time match. Andre Never did that.

VOTE : C.M. PUNK

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

little jerry lawler


Klunderbunker

1: WE are not voting for the greatest wrestler's in this tourney. If we were the there is no way that Sting gets out of the first round against ED LEWIS.

So what are we voting for then?

2: I dont remember Hogan hitting Andre with chair shot after chair shot. while C.M. Punk is no Hogan he is not bound by the standards the WWE had in the 1980's

Andre can use the chair too. I don't know if this point has been made.

3: I have never seen Andre in a Ladder Match. I have seen a "Mid-Card Punk" like Finley said kick major ass in Ladder Matches.

A ladder match or TLC match in this case isn't rocket science. Climb and grab a case and beat up your opponent. Sounds simple to me.

4: Andre had what 1 WWE title reign for like 10 minutes, C.M. Punk has defeated the FACE OF THE COMPANY in a big time match. Andre Never did that.

VOTE : C.M. PUNK

Sure. Because number of title reigns indicate how great a wrestler is.

 

[Nate DaMac]

4: Andre had what 1 WWE title reign for like 10 minutes, C.M. Punk has defeated the FACE OF THE COMPANY in a big time match. Andre Never did that.

Hey dummy, who did Andre beat to win that one WWE Championship? Yeah, shush.

Andre grabs Punk by his throat, murders him ,climbs the ladder to get whatever is up there, and he goes to the back and has a beer, awaiting a real challenge.

 

[klunderbunker]

little jerry lawler


Klunderbunker

1: WE are not voting for the greatest wrestler's in this tourney. If we were the there is no way that Sting gets out of the first round against ED LEWIS.

2: I dont remember Hogan hitting Andre with chair shot after chair shot. while C.M. Punk is no Hogan he is not bound by the standards the WWE had in the 1980's

3: I have never seen Andre in a Ladder Match. I have seen a "Mid-Card Punk" like Finley said kick major ass in Ladder Matches.

4: Andre had what 1 WWE title reign for like 10 minutes, C.M. Punk has defeated the FACE OF THE COMPANY in a big time match. Andre Never did that.

VOTE : C.M. PUNK

1. You're an idiot.

2. Yes, that actually is what we're voting for.

3. Jim Duggan, a power wrestler, broke a board over Andre's back and it didn't work.

4. February 5, 1988: Andre the Giant b. Hulk Hogan to end his four year world title reign. It aired live on NBC and still holds the record for most watched wrestling match in American history.

5. It's spelled Finlay.

Care to try again chum?

 

[pumpkinking8987]

I myself am Voting for pure Ability, Accomplishments, Drawing Power, and Mic Skills. the 4 main qualities to any top talent.

Andre can use weopons as well good point, I just have never seen him use one, or use one very well to that matter.

Andre's win was a pity win and if anyone seriously counts that as a title reign then you need help my friend. C.M. Punk won clean. Andre didnt even carry that belt out of the arena. It was watched because Hogan was the man. If Hogan would of been wrestling The Million Dollar man it would of still been the most watched match ever.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I myself am Voting for pure Ability, Accomplishments, Drawing Power, and Mic Skills. the 4 main qualities to any top talent.

Andre can use weopons as well good point, I just have never seen him use one, or use one very well to that matter.

Andre's win was a pity win and if anyone seriously counts that as a title reign then you need help my friend.

You said he had never beaten the top face, he beat the biggest name in the fucking history of Professional wrestling. The title reign is irrelevant, dummy.

Drawing power certainly doesn't go to Punk. Accomplishments? So you're counting a bunch of fake championships? Yeah, Andre was bigger than any championship. Point to Andre. Ability is objective but since you seem to have the IQ of a Strawberry Banana yogurt, you'll go with Punk. Mic skills, sure Punk.

So it's a wash. Awesome. Now you can just go on who would win the match, which is Andre the Giant.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Holy shit are you people serious?

Don't get me wrong, I find a Slyfox696 quote orgy as awesome as the next guy, but the fact that he dances around the most pertinent piece of evidence around speaks volumes about why Punk would win this match.

Who gives a fuck about how strong or brave or handsome Andre was. At the end of the day, how many TLC matches has CM Punk won?

Two. Oh whats that? He's NEVER BEEN DEFEATED in a TLC match? You don't say.

Oh, and how many TLC matches did Andre win? How many did he compete in? How many TLC matches had actually existed in Andre's time.

None. ROFLOLMAO.


If we can get around this inconvenient little bit of evidence, you might sway me for Andre. But if we're going to just completely ignore the stipulation, which is the reason the WZ tournament exists otherwise Hulk Hogan would win every fucking year, then whats the point?

EDIT: OOH OOH! For old times sake:

So in other words, you don't have an actual reason why Punk would win, but you like him more, so you contrive a scenario where he MIGHT win?

So in other words, you don't have any evidence of Andre being able to win this kind of match (unlike Punk who has never lost this kind of match), but you like him more, so you contrive a scenario where he MIGHT win?

 

[klunderbunker]

Holy shit are you people serious?

Don't get me wrong, I find a Slyfox696 quote orgy as awesome as the next guy, but the fact that he dances around the most pertinent piece of evidence around speaks volumes about why Punk would win this match.

Who gives a fuck about how strong or brave or handsome Andre was. At the end of the day, how many TLC matches has CM Punk won?

Two. Oh whats that? He's NEVER BEEN DEFEATED in a TLC match? You don't say.

Oh, and how many TLC matches did Andre win? How many did he compete in? How many TLC matches had actually existed in Andre's time.

None. ROFLOLMAO.


If we can get around this inconvenient little bit of evidence, you might sway me for Andre. But if we're going to just completely ignore the stipulation, which is the reason the WZ tournament exists otherwise Hulk Hogan would win every fucking year, then whats the point?

EDIT: OOH OOH! For old times sake:



So in other words, you don't have any evidence of Andre being able to win this kind of match (unlike Punk who has never lost this kind of match), but you like him more, so you contrive a scenario where he MIGHT win?

So, what you're saying is Andre has the same record that Punk had going into his first TLC match?

The experience argument always makes me flash back to two things:

1. Public Enemy teaching Mikey Whipwreck how to climb a ladder.

2. Jeff Hardy vs. The Undertaker in a ladder match. Jeff Hardy, a guy with a TON of experience in ladder matches, a guy who ASKED for a ladder match, goes up against Undertaker in a ladder match, Taker's first one mind you. Jeff gets close, but ultimately there's too much of the much bigger star and he gets through all of Jeff's offense to retain the title.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

So, what you're saying is Andre has the same record that Punk had going into his first TLC match?

The experience argument always makes me flash back to two things:

1. Public Enemy teaching Mikey Whipwreck how to climb a ladder.

2. Jeff Hardy vs. The Undertaker in a ladder match. Jeff Hardy, a guy with a TON of experience in ladder matches, a guy who ASKED for a ladder match, goes up against Undertaker in a ladder match, Taker's first one mind you. Jeff gets close, but ultimately there's too much of the much bigger star and he gets through all of Jeff's offense to retain the title.

I'm sorry KB, did you not read Slyfox's keen witty retort to Coco earlier in the thread? Being that this is your tournament I would think you did.

But as a refresher course:

Great logic. Because two completely different wrestlers competed in a match which is only kind of related to this one, that means Punk will beat Andre?

Jeff Hardy, Taker, Public Enemy or Mikey Whipwreck mean absolutely nothing. This is about Punk and Andre.

Punk has shown himself as resourceful enough to win all TLC matches he's been in. If we're not giving the benefit of the doubt to experience, then what kind of logic are we working on?

CM Punk has experience. He is a multi-time world champion. He's no slouch and yet everyone wants to treat this as a walkover.

I mean honestly, 'Andre has the same record Punk had in TLC matches going into Summerslam 2010?' You can't honestly believe that holds water.

In that case, I should try out for the UFC, because I have the same record as Fedor Emelianenko going into his first fight.

 

[pumpkinking8987]

I would give Andre the drawing power for sure, I am not a complete C.M. Punk Mark. Andre didn't need the belt's because he would draw with or without them.

Accomplishments: those fake championships are the goal of every wrestler in the buisness. Andre just doesnt have them so i have to give the edge to PUNK

Mic Skills: Goes to Punk without a question.

Ability: I give it to C.M. Punk because i have seen better matches from him, there is no question that Punk has had better quality matches then Andre ever has.

....Klunderbunker.... A shot from JIM DUGGAN doesnt convince me and never will, that guy was a walking punch line. A serious threat like Punk would do the job right, one well placed chop block and this match is over.

 

[Benson]

Interesting proposition. Tell me, when Punk gets out of the ring to get a ladder and then slides it back into the ring, what is Andre doing? Just standing around watching? Does he wait for Punk to pick up the ladder and smash him in the knees?

No, Andre picks up the ladder first. Even if he picked it up at the same time as Punk, do you really think Andre would lose the tug of war that would result from that? No, Andre would get that ladder, and throw that thing at Punk so hard that the universe will break.

As Andre gets into the ring, Punk clobbers the ladder right into his knees and keeps doing it to the point that Andre's weak legs become a major target, would also make it easier to knock him off the ladder, especially if Punk swings the chair at his knees as Andre climbs the ladder.

Andre grabs Punk by his throat, murders him ,climbs the ladder to get whatever is up there, and he goes to the back and has a beer, awaiting a real challenge.

Come on now. That's like saying Big Show wins every match by knocking out his opponents at the beginning of every match. But we all know that doesn't happen.

 

[Benson]

I would give Andre the drawing power for sure, I am not a complete C.M. Punk Mark. Andre didn't need the belt's because he would draw with or without them.

Accomplishments: those fake championships are the goal of every wrestler in the buisness. Andre just doesnt have them so i have to give the edge to PUNK

Mic Skills: Goes to Punk without a question.

Ability: I give it to C.M. Punk because i have seen better matches from him, there is no question that Punk has had better quality matches then Andre ever has.

....Klunderbunker.... A shot from JIM DUGGAN doesnt convince me and never will, that guy was a walking punch line. A serious threat like Punk would do the job right, one well placed chop block and this match is over.

For the record, this guy is arguing for the same result as me, and I know he's an idiot.

Read the rules of the tournament. Mic Skills has nothing to do with any of this. Nor does drawing power.

 

[Slyfox696]

Holy shit are you people serious?

Don't get me wrong, I find a Slyfox696 quote orgy as awesome as the next guy, but the fact that he dances around the most pertinent piece of evidence around speaks volumes about why Punk would win this match.

Who gives a fuck about how strong or brave or handsome Andre was. At the end of the day, how many TLC matches has CM Punk won?

Two. Oh whats that? He's NEVER BEEN DEFEATED in a TLC match? You don't say.

Oh, and how many TLC matches did Andre win? How many did he compete in? How many TLC matches had actually existed in Andre's time.

None. ROFLOLMAO.

That's a good point. That's why when I have to decide who is a better hitter between Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Benito Santiago, I have no choice but to choose Benito Santiage. After all, they didn't have sliders back in the 1920s, and since Santiago has base hits, home runs even, against sliders, clearly that means Santiago is better.

Wait a second...no, that doesn't make a bit of sense at all. Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact you tried to come up with a decent argument, and it's certainly better than Coco's was, but it still fails. Just like I'm pretty damn sure Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig could hit a slider, I'm pretty damn sure Andre can figure out how to climb a ladder to grab an object suspended over the ring.

It's not like it's exactly rocket science.

If we can get around this inconvenient little bit of evidence, you might sway me for Andre. But if we're going to just completely ignore the stipulation, which is the reason the WZ tournament exists otherwise Hulk Hogan would win every fucking year, then whats the point?

I'm not ignoring the stipulation at all. If you would have read carefully, I'm using the stipulation to show why Punk has even less of a chance in this match than he would otherwise.

So in other words, you don't have any evidence of Andre being able to win this kind of match

Tell me, do you have any evidence of Andre losing this match?

(unlike Punk who has never lost this kind of match), but you like him more, so you contrive a scenario where he MIGHT win?

I haven't contrived any scenario. I'm simply stating the overwhelming advantage Andre has in this match due to his size and strength. If I were creating a scenario it would go something like this.

Gorilla Monsoon: "Andre is in the ring right now, awaiting Punk's entrance. And I can smell the champion now! As you can see, Punk is sporting his 7/11 look, complete with ridiculous tattoos of soft drinks and greasy hair that puts even Bret Hart's hair to shame.

Punk slides into the ring. The bell sounds. Andre picks up Punk by that stack of dimes he calls a neck and throws him outside through a table. Punk stands up, climbs back in the ring and is hit with a chair shot over the head so hard the first and second rows of the audience are covered with hair grease.

Andre steps on top of Punks breadbasket, climbs two rungs on the ladder...and he's got the arbitrary object hanging from the rafters. Andre wins, and everyone in the audience wins, except for the fans in the front two rows with grease stains on their shirts. I would say it's time for Punk to hit the showers, but I heard he already showered once this month."

There, that's my scenario.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

For the record, this guy is arguing for the same result as me, and I know he's an idiot.

Read the rules of the tournament. Mic Skills has nothing to do with any of this. Nor does drawing power.

Pretty sure Mic Skills and Drawing Power have a fucking lot to do with this tournament, mate. Otherwise it would be the Great Khali vs Lex Luger in the semi's to see who faces Yokozuna.

Mic Skills and drawing power are integral factors in determining what makes a great wrestler.

I'm just so confident Punk can win this, I don't really need to bring in Mic Skills.

He is not an idiot. Perhaps it is you! *fnaff* *fnaff*

 

[Con T.]

I myself am Voting for pure Ability, Accomplishments, Drawing Power

I'm gonna stop you at drawing power.... What? Are you actually arguing that Punk is a bigger draw than Andre?

If so, that's entirely stupid, but I'll allow you this chance to clear yourself... In what way is Punk a better draw than Andre? Because, errr, he isn't. Andre is probably one of the biggest draws in the history of wrestling; Punk has been rating and buyrate death since his rise to power. His MITB match with Cena, that was hot off the "biggest" angle in wrestling history, with the shootz?

Yeah.... That did 185,000 buys. The Summerslam rematch of the greatest match of all time?


301,000 buys. Roughly 33,000 down from the year before.

I can keep this going, if you really want, but it leads downs a rabbit hole that shows Punk is clearly not a draw.

Oh, and just so we clear things up...

Wrestling ability = your ability to draw money

Accomplishments = how much money you draw, and how much the office trusts you to draw money.


Promos = your ability to sell a match on PPV, and make money.

Prove to me, if you can, that Punk's a draw; but if you find those numbers, and you will find them, don't be too disappointed.

Punk can climb faster than Andre. I've seen ladders crumble under the weight of Big Show. Oh, and then there's this:

me convinced. Punk. All day, every day.

Interesting; your argument is based strictly on the gimmick match. Interesting; flawed, but interesting.






Coco, you surely remember Andre's last match in the tournament, right? It was a submission match against a submission specialist. It was a matchAndre had no prior experience, and the pro Andre side had a real flimsy argument for the most part. I know; I was an Andre guy. Nevertheless, Andre was in a match that didn't favor him, because of the gimmick.

Do you remember who you voted for? If you don't, I'll remind you; it was Andre. In spite of the gimmick totally being in Verne'a favor, you still voted Andre.

And now you expect me to believe that you buy that Andre loses now, because of the gimmick involved?

I await your logic that climbing a ladder is harder than getting Verne Gagne to submit.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

That's a good point. That's why when I have to decide who is a better hitter between Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Benito Santiago, I have no choice but to choose Benito Santiage. After all, they didn't have sliders back in the 1920s, and since Santiago has base hits, home runs even, against sliders, clearly that means Santiago is better.

Wait a second...no, that doesn't make a bit of sense at all. Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact you tried to come up with a decent argument, and it's certainly better than Coco's was, but it still fails. Just like I'm pretty damn sure Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig could hit a slider, I'm pretty damn sure Andre can figure out how to climb a ladder to grab an object suspended over the ring.

It's not like it's exactly rocket science.

This is the point I agree with you on, and anyone else who doesn't is awful.

Apparently Ladders only exist within the WWE universe and no one has ever encountered a hardware store in their life.

I'm not ignoring the stipulation at all. If you would have read carefully, I'm using the stipulation to show why Punk has even less of a chance in this match than he would otherwise.

Oh come now, don't be coy Slyfox, if this were a cage match, or last man standing match, you'd be all over the stipulation like white on rice.

Tell me, do you have any evidence of Andre losing this match?

Please stop using this argument. It's inane and ultimately weakens your argument. The fact that he hasn't participated in a TLC match doesn't automatically guarantee he'll be awesome at one. We have solid evidence of Punk being exceptionally in this kind of match. It's time you concede this point.

Otherwise Doink the Clown is undefeated in HIaC and Rick Martel was the greatest Singapore Cane match wrestler who ever lived.

I haven't contrived any scenario. I'm simply stating the overwhelming advantage Andre has in this match due to his size and strength. If I were creating a scenario it would go something like this.

Finally, a point we can chew on. Size and Strength. These are the first real points that Andre has over Punk. If we give Punk the experience in the match up and speed, finally we can have an argument.

Your position is that size and strength pose too much of a problem for Punk in winning the match up. I respectfully disagree. Speed and creativity are what are rewarded in this kind of match up. Despite how bloodied and beaten Punk may (probably will) get, this may not help him in the match up. Let's go to the record books.

Edge & Christian (c) defeated The Hardy Boyz (Jeff & Matt) and The Dudley Boyz (Bubba Ray & D-Von) Triple Threat Tag Team TLC Match for the WWF Tag Team Championship SummerSlam (2000) August 27, 2000
Raleigh, NC 14:51

2 Edge & Christian defeated The Hardy Boyz and The Dudley Boyz (c) Triple Threat Tag Team TLC Match for the WWF Tag Team Championship WrestleMania X-Seven April 1, 2001
Houston, TX 15:53

3 Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit (c) defeated Edge & Christian, The Dudley Boyz, and The Hardy Boyz Fatal 4-Way Tag Team TLC Match for the WWF Tag Team Championship WWF SmackDown May 24, 2001
Anaheim, CA 21:00

4 Kane & The Hurricane (c) defeated The Dudley Boyz (Bubba Ray & Spike), Christian & Chris Jericho, and Jeff Hardy & Rob Van Dam Fatal 4-Way Tag Team TLC Match for the World Tag Team Championship WWE Raw Roulette October 7, 2002Las Vegas, NV 25:08

5 Edge (c) defeated Ric Flair Singles TLC Match for the WWE Championship WWE Raw January 16, 2006
Raleigh, NC 16:40

6 John Cena defeated Edge (c) Singles TLC Match for the WWE Championship Unforgiven (2006) September 17, 2006
Toronto , Ontario, Canada 25:28

7 Edge defeated The Undertaker Singles TLC Match for the vacant World Heavyweight Championship One Night Stand (2008) June 1, 2008
San Diego , CA 23:50

8 CM Punk defeated Jeff Hardy (c) Singles TLC Match for the World Heavyweight Championship SummerSlam (2009) August 23, 2009
Los Angeles , CA 21:42

9 D-Generation X (Triple H & Shawn Michaels) defeated Jeri-Show (Chris Jericho & Big Show) (c) Tag Team TLC Match for the Unified WWE Tag Team Championship TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2009) December 13, 2009
San Antonio , TX 22:32

10 The Miz (c) defeated Jerry Lawler Singles TLC Match for the WWE Championship WWE Raw November 29, 2010
Philadelphia , PA 11:52

11 Edge defeated Kane (c), Alberto Del Rio, and Rey Mysterio Fatal 4-Way TLC Match for the World Heavyweight Championship TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2010) December 19, 2010
Houston, TX 22:17

12 CM Punk (c) defeated The Miz and Alberto Del Rio

There. I highlighted it. The only time a 'big man' who relied on strength and size won a TLC match. And he needed help from a speedy Hurricane.

Generally, either the faster person wins in these matches or CM Punk wins in these matches. The Miz was faster than Lawler, Edge faster than Flair AND the Undertaker, HBK and HHH faster than JeriShow.

Also, Punk has won 16% of all the TLC matches ever. SICK STATS.

Originally Posted by Slyfox scenario
Gorilla Monsoon: Andre is in the ring right now, awaiting Punk's entrance. And I can smell the champion now! As you can see, Punk is sporting his 7/11 look, complete with ridiculous tattoos of soft drinks and greasy hair that even puts Bret Hart's hair to shame.

Punk slides into the ring. The bell sounds. Andre picks up Punk by that stack of dimes he calls a neck and throws him outside through a table. Punk stands up, climbs back in the ring and is hit with a chair shot over the head so hard the first and second rows of the audience are covered with hair grease.

Andre steps on top of Punks breadbasket, climbs two rungs on the ladder...and he's got the arbitrary object hanging from the rafters. Andre wins, and everyone in the audience wins, except for the fans in the front two rows with grease stains on their shirts.

There, that's my scenario.

Have you ever heard of WZCW? You'd be brilliant.

 

[Nate DaMac]

There. I highlighted it. The only time a 'big man' who relied on strength and size won a TLC match. And he needed help from a speedy Hurricane.

That's hilarious, seeing as Hurricane did not participate in that Match AT ALL. He was injured beforehand, couldn't compete. Therefore Kane, who isn't nearly as good as Andre, defeated 3 other tag teams by himself in his first ever Ladder Match.

Thanks for helping us out.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

That's hilarious, seeing as Hurricane did not participate in that Match AT ALL. He was injured beforehand, couldn't compete. Therefore Kane, who isn't nearly as good as Andre, defeated 3 other tag teams by himself in his first ever Ladder Match.

Thanks for helping us out.

Oh cool man.

I appreciate where you ignore EVERY OTHER TLC MATCH EVER in making your point that Kane won one once.

I also appreciate you ignored how it was a Fatal 4 way, in which it wasn't 1v1 and so when Kane spent about 15 minutes layed the fuck out, he didn't lose the match.

But yeah, good points.

 

[The Brain]

I myself am Voting for pure Ability, Accomplishments, Drawing Power, and Mic Skills. the 4 main qualities to any top talent.

So you must be voting for Andre.

Andre can use weopons as well good point, I just have never seen him use one, or use one very well to that matter.

Andre doesn't need weapons. A weapon will only give Punk a chance to not make this a total squash. What does using weapons good mean anyway? I'm sure Andre would be perfectly capable of hitting Punk with a chair.

Andre's win was a pity win and if anyone seriously counts that as a title reign then you need help my friend. C.M. Punk won clean. Andre didnt even carry that belt out of the arena. It was watched because Hogan was the man. If Hogan would of been wrestling The Million Dollar man it would of still been the most watched match ever.

It's also a win he got when he was well past his prime yet he was still a big enough name to unseat the face of the company and draw that record audience. Ted Dibiase would not have drawn as big an audience. Andre helped make Dibiase. Dibiase was a nobody until he hooked up with Andre.

Who gives a fuck about how strong or brave or handsome Andre was. At the end of the day, how many TLC matches has CM Punk won?

Two. Oh whats that? He's NEVER BEEN DEFEATED in a TLC match? You don't say.

Yeah those wins over Jeff Hardy, The Miz, and Alberto Del Rio prove Punk can hang with Andre

Oh, and how many TLC matches did Andre win? How many did he compete in? How many TLC matches had actually existed in Andre's time.

None. ROFLOLMAO.

Yeah the match didn't exist yet. How do you know Andre wouldn't have won every TLC match he was in if they were around in the 70s? I bet he would have done pretty well.

Ability: I give it to C.M. Punk because i have seen better matches from him, there is no question that Punk has had better quality matches then Andre ever has.

You've seen better quality matches from Punk or you simply prefer his style? There's a difference. Just because you prefer Punk's style of offense doesn't mean he is a better wrestler than Andre.

....Klunderbunker.... A shot from JIM DUGGAN doesnt convince me and never will, that guy was a walking punch line. A serious threat like Punk would do the job right, one well placed chop block and this match is over.

So Punk's swing will have more effect than that of the bigger and stronger Duggan? I don't see how.

 

[Benson]

As for the Tag Titles match with jeri-Show, shouldn't Big Show have just grabbed Shawn by his pencil neck, throttled him around the ring, and then knocked HHH out with one punch, stepped on both of them, climbed two rungs of the ladder and won the match in under a minute?

Oh right, because that didn't happen.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Yeah those wins over Jeff Hardy, The Miz, and Alberto Del Rio prove Punk can hang with Andre

Andre made a career out of squashing nobodies. All those men you listed are former WWE Champions.

Keep your condescending smileys to yourself, thanks.

Yeah the match didn't exist yet. How do you know Andre wouldn't have won every TLC match he was in if they were around in the 70s? I bet he would have done pretty well.

Because that's baseless conjecture at best, whereas the argument for Punk has solid evidence.

Oh, let me try.

 

[The Brain]

Oh cool man.

I appreciate where you ignore EVERY OTHER TLC MATCH EVER in making your point that Kane won one once.

I also appreciate you ignored how it was a Fatal 4 way, in which it wasn't 1v1 and so when Kane spent about 15 minutes layed the fuck out, he didn't lose the match.

But yeah, good points.

Hey you're the one who brought it up. Don't ignore it now because someone used your argument against you. For the most part TLC matches take place between smaller guys so they can do their spots off the ladders. That doesn't mean a smaller guy would beat a bigger guy. Out of all the TLC matches you've seen how often has one finished by someone sprinting up the ladder and winning a race to the belt? None. They all end with the eventual winner struggling to make it to the top while the opponent is down on the mat or floor after a hard fought match. Who do you think is more likely to be the one down and out on the ground? I'd say Punk after Andre is finished punishing him. Speed isn't as important as you think.

 

[Slyfox696]

Oh come now, don't be coy Slyfox, if this were a cage match, or last man standing match, you'd be all over the stipulation like white on rice.

Umm, I'm already all over the stipulation like a hobo on a bologna sandwich.

Please stop using this argument.

The moment you stop saying he can't win one because he's never been in one is the moment I'll stop saying you have no evidence he would lose in one.

The fact that he hasn't participated in a TLC match doesn't automatically guarantee he'll be awesome at one.

Not does it indicate he'd be bad at one.

We have solid evidence of Punk being exceptionally in this kind of match.

I'm PRETTY certain Punk's success in this match didn't come at the expense of Andre. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Well hell, let's just say it, I couldn't be wrong.

It's time you concede this point.

What are you wanting me to concede, that Punk was able to defeat a drug addict and two guys whose combined weight is roughly equal to Andre's? What exactly are you wanting me to concede? Punk is 2-0, that's great. When I play wiffleball with 6th graders, I usually reach base safely. I'm pretty certain that doesn't mean I'd bat .400 in MLB.

Otherwise Doink the Clown is undefeated in HIaC and Rick Martel was the greatest Singapore Cane match wrestler who ever lived.

I'm not the one bringing up pointless records.

Finally, a point we can chew on. Size and Strength. These are the first real points that Andre has over Punk.

Only from a kayfabe perspective. If we look at factors outside of the show, Andre has several more.

If we give Punk the experience in the match up and speed, finally we can have an argument.

I'm not giving experience in the match up. You already agreed climbing a ladder is not a big deal, since every hardware store carries a ladder. You and I both know Miz, Del Rio and Hardy combined don't equal an Andre in strength, and Miz/Del Rio combine are roughly equal to Andre in weight.

In a TLC match, you hit people with objects, then climb to paint your shed. It's not like a cage match or a battle royal where experience plays any significant factor.

There. I highlighted it. The only time a 'big man' who relied on strength and size won a TLC match...Generally, either the faster person wins in these matches

Yes, and but let's look at what you didn't highlight.

Edge & Christian (c) defeated The Hardy Boyz (Jeff & Matt) and The Dudley Boyz (Bubba Ray & D-Von) Triple Threat Tag Team TLC Match for the WWF Tag Team Championship SummerSlam (2000) August 27, 2000
Raleigh, NC 14:51

2 Edge & Christian defeated The Hardy Boyz and The Dudley Boyz (c) Triple Threat Tag Team TLC Match for the WWF Tag Team Championship WrestleMania X-Seven April 1, 2001
Houston, TX 15:53

3 Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit (c) defeated Edge & Christian, The Dudley Boyz, and The Hardy Boyz Fatal 4-Way Tag Team TLC Match for the WWF Tag Team Championship WWF SmackDown May 24, 2001
Anaheim, CA 21:00

4 Kane & The Hurricane (c) defeated The Dudley Boyz (Bubba Ray & Spike), Christian & Chris Jericho, and Jeff Hardy & Rob Van Dam Fatal 4-Way Tag Team TLC Match for the World Tag Team Championship WWE Raw Roulette October 7, 2002Las Vegas, NV 25:08

5 Edge (c) defeated Ric Flair Singles TLC Match for the WWE Championship WWE Raw January 16, 2006
Raleigh, NC 16:40

6 John Cena defeated Edge (c) Singles TLC Match for the WWE Championship Unforgiven (2006) September 17, 2006
Toronto , Ontario, Canada 25:28

7 Edge defeated The Undertaker Singles TLC Match for the vacant World Heavyweight Championship One Night Stand (2008) June 1, 2008
San Diego , CA 23:50

8 CM Punk defeated Jeff Hardy (c) Singles TLC Match for the World Heavyweight Championship SummerSlam (2009) August 23, 2009
Los Angeles , CA 21:42

9 D-Generation X (Triple H & Shawn Michaels) defeated Jeri-Show (Chris Jericho & Big Show) (c) Tag Team TLC Match for the Unified WWE Tag Team Championship TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2009) December 13, 2009
San Antonio , TX 22:32

10 The Miz (c) defeated Jerry Lawler Singles TLC Match for the WWE Championship WWE Raw November 29, 2010
Philadelphia , PA 11:52

11 Edge defeated Kane (c), Alberto Del Rio, and Rey Mysterio Fatal 4-Way TLC Match for the World Heavyweight Championship TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2010) December 19, 2010
Houston, TX 22:17

12 CM Punk (c) defeated The Miz and Alberto Del Rio

I went ahead and highlighted all the times a guy who relied on speed LOST a TLC match. From where I sit, John Cena and Kane are both guys who rely on their power to win matches, who have won TLC. Big Show and Kane are the only two big guys who rely on power who have lost TLC matches (Undertaker doesn't rely on power to win matches).

That means strong guys who rely on their power are 2-2 in this type of match. However, use the bolded to see how many times a guy who relies on speed LOSES this type of match.

I think my point is made. And yes, I know it's an absolutely ridiculous point but it wasn't my choice to bring it up.

The Miz was faster than Lawler, Edge faster than Flair AND the Undertaker, HBK and HHH faster than JeriShow.

And not a single guy who lost was a strong or as dominant as Andre, not even Taker. So....why are we wasting our time on this?

Also, Punk has won 16% of all the TLC matches ever. SICK STATS.

And Jeff Hardy has lost 42% of all the TLC matches ever. SICKER STAT!

Do you see how ridiculous this particular section of the conversation is? Andre is far greater than anyone Punk has beaten in a TLC match. You have no evidence to show Andre would not be great in a TLC match. You agree climbing a ladder is not a big deal, and you don't disagree Andre is clearly the stronger of the two, which means he is more likely to do serious damage with weapons.

If you want to focus on speed, fine. World titles, fine (though I wouldn't recommend that). Mic work? Feel free. But trying to compare a 2-0 record against guys of lesser caliber against a 0-0 record, when both guys have wrestled hundreds of matches over the course of their career is simply a waste of tie.

Have you ever heard of WZCW? You'd be brilliant.

I have no doubt.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Oh cool man.

I appreciate where you ignore EVERY OTHER TLC MATCH EVER in making your point that Kane won one once.

I also appreciate you ignored how it was a Fatal 4 way, in which it wasn't 1v1 and so when Kane spent about 15 minutes layed the fuck out, he didn't lose the match.

But yeah, good points.

You're the one who fucking bolded that match referencing the Kane win and now you complain about ignoring the others.

If we going that route, then I'll take out Punk's win against Del Rio and Miz since it was not one-on one so all we're left is a win against Jeff Hardy.

But yeah, good points.