Vince and Creative team humiliate Mickie James on Smackdown (Petition Link Included)

[CH David]

First, we had some discussion about this some time ago when Vickie left, and I thought it was best to somewhat revisit the discussion. Did Vince go too far in embarrassing Mickie James?

Second, do you think Vince gets his rocks off on humiliating his talent like this?

Third, and be honest ... did you find the segment humorous, or were you put off by it?

Well Sid I'd like to answer your questions. Yes I'm being a smartass and I don't mean to be, so my apologies.

Personally, I feel Vince did go too far with this segment. Beating the crap out of Mickie in a segment, cutting her clothes up, all perfectly fine. But to actually call her out, and say she is fat is something really messed up. She isn't fat, and has always had her little stomach. It doesn't hinder her in the ring at all, and she looks damn good.

Secondly, of course Vince gets off on crap like this. He loves to humiliate people for his own pleasure. As you stated, the Vickie Guerrero thing, hell, we can just look at Jim Ross. He loves to humiliate him any time he gets the chance. So I do think Vince gets off on doing this "oh so joyous" bullcrap.

Thirdly, I did not find it funny or even entertaining one bit. I found it to be in poor taste. Vince is a Grade A prick, and it really doesn't surprise me he pulled this. Like I say above, he will get off on this shit. I was put off by it, but then again, the WWE doesn't really care about their divas at this point, and Vince wants to humiliate his top diva just because she wants to try being a Country music star. It isn't fair to Mickie, but with Vince in power almost anything he wants goes, even if it means Mickie gets shit on for no reason.

 

[BladeRunner]

Wait a second, wasn't everyone the other day just saying that PG wasn't enough, and they needed to get more hardcore and more nasty? And now, when they say something nasty about a woman you guys are all offended by it? Gimme a break. Either you're for more hardcore, in all it's aspects, or you're not.

Was it mean spirited and nasty? Yes.

Does it make Mickie the face look good, and make the heels look especially nasty and cruel? Yes. Like it was intended and did it's job excellent.

You're making a show out to be something personal. They did it because it's what heels are supposed to do, which is be nasty. The beautiful people in TNA do it all the time and it's what makes them such great heels.

 

[Tenta]

Wait a second, wasn't everyone the other day just saying that PG wasn't enough, and they needed to get more hardcore and more nasty?

I think I can see where this is going

And now, when they say something nasty about a woman you guys are all offended by it? Gimme a break. Either you're for more hardcore, in all it's aspects, or you're not.

Yeah, pretty much what I expected. There's a very fine line between "Hardcore" and "Offensive". That, for me, was extremely offensive. There's plenty of ways to breach this PG material that you speak of. Did it take this material to do such a thing?

Oh, and not everyone says the WWE needs to stop being PG. And, for that matter, this is hardly what people talk about by going PG. This was a situation of someone going out of their way to be nasty.

Was it mean spirited and nasty? Yes.

And signed off by Vince. You think Vince would have signed off on Mickie calling Michelle Skeletor? Do you not see the double standard of the whole manner?

Does it make Mickie the face look good, and make the heels look especially nasty and cruel? Yes. Like it was intended and did it's job excellent.

Where exactly does Mickie look good? Crying is making her look like a viable Diva. That makes her appear strong enough to take out Michelle? Yeah, I really don't buy that. Not one bit.

You're making a show out to be something personal. They did it because it's what heels are supposed to do, which is be nasty. The beautiful people in TNA do it all the time and it's what makes them such great heels.

I'm sorry, have they ever called Awesome Kong fat? There's just certain things you don't do, period. Calling a woman fat is one of them. Period. End of sentence.

Or did your mother just not raise you well?

 

[Paradox]

I found the entire thing to be horrible, and in bad taste. Since when do you go and call the most popular diva fat? She has carried the division for the most part on her own since Trish and Lita left. She's been the one main stay that has made that division entertaining. She's one of the if not the best female wrestler they have. She has been able to put good match with almost anyone she's stepped foot in the ring with. Then to see her be treated like this is awful.

Personally, I find her to be the most attractive diva that they have. Why? Because she actually looks like a woman. She's not a stick with to implants. She's as real as they come and she's damn fine looking! There is something called natural beauty Vince. Yes she has a tummy, but she isn't fat. She's a vary attractive woman.


I believe that those were legitimate tears. They weren't fake, because of the way she carried herself to the back, she looked like she was in complete shock of what just happened.

Now for those of you that don't see a problem with this... What the fuck is a matter with you? There is such a thing as decency. You treat a woman with respect, and as lady. You don't make skits up to humiliate them, and call her fat. That's sick! There is no doubt in my mind that Vince crossed the line her. Yes we want to see something that is entertaining from the divas, but this wasn't even close! If you found this entertaining you have a screwed view of entertainment, and I suggest you go get some help!

 

[ShepFoLife]

Everyone hold on a second please. The IWC found out that Mickie James was moved from RAW to SD! cause she gained some weight. But I don't think anything was mentioned on TV about her being drafted for her weight.

I understand where everyone is coming from saying it was in bad taste, and how much it must have hurt MJ's feelings. But I mean do you really think she was that upset. She's always had that lil pudge on her. Maybe a lil more now than she had before but in reality shes in amazing shape. I'm sure in the WWE thats looked at as being chubby, but in the real world women would kill to have that body. And I'm sure MJ knows that. I have a really hard time believing that she broke kayfabe when she shed a lil tear. A few years ago the divas were being called tramps, ****s, ****es, ugly, manly, etc. Jericho and The Rock went after Steph all the time. I dunno but I think it's all part of the script. If I'm wrong then yea its F'd up for WWE to do that to her. But I really can't see that being the case.

 

[Rebecca]

The segment was terrible. The WWE was directly feeding those internet reports by publically humiliating her for her weight. Maybe it was to get Michelle more heat? If it was, it was a horrible way of doing it. WWE has a young audience, when you call somebody like Mickie James "piggy" in front of young girls, they're BOUND to question how they look as well. It's natural. Personally i'm giving Mickie a lot of credit for actually going through with the segment, if she did know that they where going to call her fat, she's obviously got enough faith, and confidence in herself to go out there and take what they're dishing out.

Michelle in the end will get what's coming to her tough. I just felt that the segment wasn't needed. Mickie's going to win the title with or without being called a pig, so why bother with it? What did it achieve? A few jeers for McCool? Considering Mickie has worked her ass off for four years, put over talent, worked a full schedule without any time off, carried multiple womens tag matches, and lets not forget the division as a whole, I thought they could have found a less tasteless way to embarrass her. I just hope Mickie wasn't humiliated for the sake of humiliation.

 

[johnbragg]

First, did Vince go too far? I'd say no PROVIDED Mickie James wins in a dominant fashion over Michelle McCool at Survivor Series or the next Pay Per View. If this is a Vickie Guerrero style parting gift, then it's not that it went too far, it's that it went anywhere.

SEcond, yes, it could be that Vince gets off from humiliating his employees, or just anyone in general. Also remember though, he could have been trying to be funny. Tell me this wasn't (smirk) as funny (chuckle) as a MIDGET--wait--doing CROTCH CHOPS! Oh my god, give me a minute. It was about as funny, on a per second basis, as DR Vince pulling things out of fake JR's ass.

Third, covered. It wasn't funny, but I bet Vince was in hysterics.

This discussion is overlapping heavily with the How FAr Would You Go Thread, so I'm going to draw on that discussion. (There is a bit of whiplash here, Sidious. I go to bed, you're sketching out how a rape angle would play out. I wake up, your panties are in a twist over what looks like a cheap Flash animation of a wrestler with a pig nose.)

Rule of thumb one: Can this issue be settled with an asswhuppin? I say yes. Go to the video again, pause at 0:11. By the end of the segment, whether or not Mickie James was really crying, I am very sure that that little girl was crying real tears.

What would you say to that little girl to make it all okay? "It's okay, honey, Mickie is gonna get that girl good next time, you'll see. Mickie's gonna win in the end."

Rule of thumb two: Evil has to be punished in the end.

As long as rules one and two are followed, the storyline will be okay.

You don't make skits up to humiliate them, and call her fat

Well, you do if you're a heel--a bad guy. Which Michelle McCool is in the storyline. As long as she get's a righteous asswhuppin in the last chapter (I almost said in the end, heh heh) it's all okay. Maybe not a great dramatic moment in wrestling history, but at least okay.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

First, did Vince go too far? I'd say no PROVIDED Mickie James wins in a dominant fashion over Michelle McCool at Survivor Series or the next Pay Per View. If this is a Vickie Guerrero style parting gift, then it's not that it went too far, it's that it went anywhere.

SEcond, yes, it could be that Vince gets off from humiliating his employees, or just anyone in general. Also remember though, he could have been trying to be funny. Tell me this wasn't (smirk) as funny (chuckle) as a MIDGET--wait--doing CROTCH CHOPS! Oh my god, give me a minute. It was about as funny, on a per second basis, as DR Vince pulling things out of fake JR's ass.

Third, covered. It wasn't funny, but I bet Vince was in hysterics.

This discussion is overlapping heavily with the How FAr Would You Go Thread, so I'm going to draw on that discussion. (There is a bit of whiplash here, Sidious. I go to bed, you're sketching out how a rape angle would play out. I wake up, your panties are in a twist over what looks like a cheap Flash animation of a wrestler with a pig nose.)

Rule of thumb one: Can this issue be settled with an asswhuppin? I say yes. Go to the video again, pause at 0:11. By the end of the segment, whether or not Mickie James was really crying, I am very sure that that little girl was crying real tears.

What would you say to that little girl to make it all okay? "It's okay, honey, Mickie is gonna get that girl good next time, you'll see. Mickie's gonna win in the end."

Rule of thumb two: Evil has to be punished in the end.

As long as rules one and two are followed, the storyline will be okay.



Well, you do if you're a heel--a bad guy. Which Michelle McCool is in the storyline. As long as she get's a righteous asswhuppin in the last chapter (I almost said in the end, heh heh) it's all okay. Maybe not a great dramatic moment in wrestling history, but at least okay.

Just to respond to your comments directed towards me, there is a difference in a rape angle being constructed in a storyline for television, and something like this. The difference is that the rape storyline is just that ... a storyline. This is something more, as it blurs the line between storyline ... and actually taking pot shots at one of your performers for a personal matter that they are upset at her for, and making it public for the whole world to see.

It blurs the lines between embarrassing the performer, and embarrassing the actual person.

And also just to clarify, I never stated or implied that "my panties were in a twist over the segment" either. Just because I may make a thread topic on something, perhaps you are blurring the line between Lord Sidious, the person ... and Lord Sidious, the Moderator.

Meaning, it is my job to give you topics to talk about on a Discussion Forum. And I knew this was going to be a hot button topic. So I created a thread on it for everyone.

As far as "Mickie winning in the end and evil losing", I would not be so sure on this one ... as I am not confident Mickie will get the title as a result of this. If Vince is unhappy with Mickie, then he simply may be out to embarrass her, and still let McCool keep the title in the end. Sometimes, evil does triumph. As it should in storylines and programs.

 

[BladeRunner]

Yeah, pretty much what I expected. There's a very fine line between "Hardcore" and "Offensive". That, for me, was extremely offensive. There's plenty of ways to breach this PG material that you speak of. Did it take this material to do such a thing?

Ok so you want to deconstruct my writing line by line, I'll deconstruct yours.

You're acting like I wrote it and then being like "Why did you write such a thing! How dare you!"...All I said was that this kind of stuff has been done, is currently being done, and will keep being done to make heels look like assholes. And it did it's job.

Oh, and not everyone says the WWE needs to stop being PG.

Most do. But of course the one person who does like PG has to be in my face about my talking about the 95% other people who don't want it. Of course.

And, for that matter, this is hardly what people talk about by going PG. This was a situation of someone going out of their way to be nasty.

Which is what heels should do, is be nasty.

And signed off by Vince. You think Vince would have signed off on Mickie calling Michelle Skeletor? Do you not see the double standard of the whole manner?

Yes I do think he would have signed off on that actually.

Where exactly does Mickie look good? Crying is making her look like a viable Diva. That makes her appear strong enough to take out Michelle? Yeah, I really don't buy that. Not one bit.

It makes people feel sorry for her and want her to take revenge by beating Michelle Cool's ass. And Look! It's working! You guys are doing just that!

I'm sorry, have they ever called Awesome Kong fat?

Yes in so many words. Taz did it on commentary just the other day.

There's just certain things you don't do, period. Calling a woman fat is one of them. Period. End of sentence.

It's a show. It's not reality. It's entertainment. If you find it offensive turn it off. Duh calling a woman fat is nasty. That's why a HEEL woman wrestler did just that!

Or did your mother just not raise you well?

Because I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy? Because I know the difference between a show and real life? Yeah, she must have done a horrible job raising me for me to see plainly that it's just a show, they're just heel wrestlers that got real heat, and Mickie James is going to come out looking like a hero who beat her enemy's ass. Yeah it must all have to do with how my mom raised me.

 

[Slyfox696]

Faces make the money? Heels make money too. Orton's a heel, so is Jericho. Their merchandise sells. Maybe not as much as say, Cena's, but the heels make money too.

Think about that for a second, and think just how dumb that is.

You're right, heels DO make money, but doesn't that kind of run contrary to the whole point of being a heel? The term "heel" doesn't just apply to wrestling, it's a term used to describe a dishonest and generally unlikable person. If heels are making money, that means people are buying their merch...and if people are buying their merch, they must like the heel.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose of being a heel?

The good heels don't make money, they are the reason that the faces draw money. A good heel is someone people hate, and are glad get beaten by the face. You shouldn't EVER make one of your top faces humiliated to give a heel heat, because that defeats the entire concept of face vs. heel.

This is Wrestling Booking 101, and so far, the WWE and you are failing it.

No, what entertains people are great matches, interesting gimmicks, and awesome promos. "Heroic good guy vanquishing evil" doesn't always work.

This is false. At the end of the day, Good triumphing over Evil is always what makes something entertaining. Look no further than the movie industry for proof of that.

Does the heel get their chance to shine? Of course, if they didn't, then the face's heroic comeback doesn't have the intrigue to it. But at the end of the day, Good vs. Evil will ALWAYS draw more consistently than anything else.

What if the heel is more over than the face?

It depends on their place on the card.

If we're talking about a main-event heel and a midcard level face, then sure, the heel will get the best of the face. To get heel heat, the main-event heel would go over clean on the face, which only upsets the fans more because they want to see this bastard lose. But when you're talking about main-event heel vs. main-event face, which is what Michelle and Mickie are in the Diva's division, then it's absolutely absurd to try and humiliate your main-event face, since that does NOTHING to encourage the fan's belief that she can triumph over Evil. It just points out her flaws, and makes people think she may be incapable of beating Evil. And if people don't think there is a possibility for a happy ending, with Good beating Evil, then they're not going to buy the show.

Again, this is basic Wrestling Booking 101.

It's about who the fan themselves choose to root for, not "hero defeats evil villain".

The only people who believe this are the fans who want to think they're better than wrestling itself. Because the whole POINT of having faces and heels is to play the characters of Good vs. Evil. The guys you want to be vs. the guys you don't like, and cheering on the guys you like to beat the guys you don't. That's the whole point of professional wrestling.

Orton, Jericho, Edge, JBL.... I could go on. These are all people that many fans wanted to see lose to someone they liked more. They tune in to see who finally defeats them. How does that mean these guys don't draw?

See above

Depends on how entertaining the segment is. Sometimes they suck, sometimes they are entertaining.

No, no it doesn't. When you have two top workers against each other, it doesn't matter at all...you don't humiliate the faces. The whole point of humiliating a wrestler, for on-screen purposes, is to give fans the ability to enjoy watching the bad guy get what he deserves. No one wants to see the people they like get humiliated, what's the point of that?

What about when Randy Orton was WWE Champion from October 2007 until April 2008? That's a pretty long reign. VERY long compared to the recent world title reigns. Heels do get long runs.

It was a long reign, but was it a successful one? Or did business go down?

Having a long reign and having a successful one are two different things. Cena's year long reign was successful...ratings went up, PPV buys went up, revenue went up, house show attendance went up...business went up. Orton didn't have that.

I'll give you Sting on that one, but not Goldberg. Goldberg was only as over as he was because he was undefeated for so long.

Was Goldberg a good guy or a bad guy? Was he someone that people wanted to see lose, or someone people wanted to see kick ass?

Exactly.

Because people laugh at things they find funny. Tell me that you haven't laughed even once at a face getting made fun of. I highly doubt any fan can say that.

You're missing the whole point. Pretend you're in high school (well, you probably don't have to pretend, but whatever). You and your female friend are feuding with these two douchebags you hate, have let air out of your tires, have keyed your car, and keep threatening to beat your ass. Then, one day, these two douchebags put up a picture of your friend in a bikini on the beach, with a caption that reads "Look out! Beached whale!".

Now, would you be standing next to your friend laughing at her? Or would you go find these two fuckers and kick their ass?


I rest my case.

I couldn't care less about what's "poor booking". I watch wrestling to be entertained, not to be one of those people who sits down and disects every last raw/smackdown/impact/ecw to its most pointless detail.

Then why the fuck are you here?

In my original post, I believe I gave three different reasons why this was a bonehead booking move by the WWE, one of which refers to the wrestling product, which is what we are discussing. If you care about wrestling, you should care about it doing well, and this was not something they did well, from an on-air standpoint, from a socially conscious standpoint, or from a personnel standpoint.

Just sit back and enjoy the show. If you take this segment for what it was.... a segment meant to get the heel (that would be Michelle) more heel heat, and get the face (that would be Mickie) more over.... then you would enjoy it more.

But that's not what the segment did, the segment just served to humiliate a top face in the company. Even if Mickie James was in on it and didn't care, it doesn't change the fact it was a dumb booking move, because it harms the fans belief in Mickie's ability to be better than heels.

 

[johnbragg]

As far as "Mickie winning in the end and evil losing", I would not be so sure on this one ... as I am not confident Mickie will get the title as a result of this. If Vince is unhappy with Mickie, then he simply may be out to embarrass her, and still let McCool keep the title in the end. Sometimes, evil does triumph. As it should in storylines and programs.

Me either, because out of character we know that Vince is a prick. If Mickie doesn't go over Michelle McCool big over this, then any defense of the storyline is non-operational--it's just Vince wanking on TV, booking the show to satisfy his own personal agenda.

As for evil triumphing in the end, as both a fan and a WWE Shareholder(TM) I disagree. Think about that little girl at 0:11 of the video. If her mom still buys her the PPV, and she sees Mickie and justice triumph over evil and Michelle McCool, she will remember that and probably be hooked on wrestling, at least for a very long time. If, however, there is no payoff, if good just takes it in the shorts indefinitely, then she will cover her room in Twilight posters instead.

And, my friends, That's Not Good for Business.

 

[johnbragg]

You shouldn't EVER make one of your top faces humiliated to give a heel heat, because that defeats the entire concept of face vs. heel.

No, if you do it right, it builds sympathy for the face, and increases the audience's desire to see the nasty bad guy GET THEIRS in the end.

Heel-torments-and-humiliates-face-and-face-finally-gets-revenge is one main formula. Think Bad News Bears. The other formula is face-torments-and-humiliates-arrogant-heel-but-clever-heel-narrowly-escapes-destruction. Think Peter Pan and Captain Hook.

I've been talking about this in terms of kids, partially because it means I can use more universal references and partially because I've been thinking in terms of the little girl at 0:11. But these stories can also be told at a more adult level. DX and Vince McMAhon 2006 and Austin and McMahon 1998-99 did the Peter Pan-Captain Hook formula. Rey Mysterio in any feud he's in does the Bad News Bears formula.

I have to walk something back. Evil doesn't always have to lose. That destroys suspense. But when evil loses, it should almost always mean that there is another chapter still to be written in the story.

Evil having a final triumph should be very, very rare. It would have been okay for Cena to lose at Bragging Rights, which would have been a final-for-wrestling ending to the Cena-Orton story, partially because there is still another chapter next week when different faces rise up to challenge Orton. Also there had been enough chapters with Cena victories to soften the blow.

But the heel winning decisively and finally is a big Fuck You to the paying customers, and should be very, very rare. Chances are, we're looking at that with the McCool-James storyline, but it is also possible that someone in creative will talk some sense into Vince now that he's gotten his rocks off.

 

[RavensFlock1990]

Mickie is the hottest diva since the Trish/Stacy/Torrie days. Anyone that calls her overweight is just sick. Her body is perfect and alot better looking than that annorexic plank Michelle McTaker.

Bullshit like this is why I'm about done with WWE. Been done with RAW for awhile but with Taker burying Punk over not wearing a suit and now ugly plank McTaker trying to humiliate James there's just no reason to watch anymore. It seems to me now that Taker is ALOT worse when it comes to abusing backstage power than HHH has ever been.

SD was so great earlier this year when Jeff Hardy, CM Punk, Jericho and Edge were the main guys. Now Vince got involved and him along with Taker and his plank have completely ruined SD.

Good thing TNA is pushing all their young guys now so I don't gotta waste my time with this bullshit anymore.

 

[BooCocky]

Where was this outrage when Rhonda Sing was brought in?

You said she was brought in in 1994, right? Most of us were still young, and none of us knew how the business operated. I'm sure if she was here now and humiliated like Mickie, I am sure we all would have said something similar to what we are saying now about Mickie.

Or how about when Nicole Bass was abused right in front of us, on television?

I do not remember this so I have no comment.

I'm curious as to why there haven't been petitions started up for Vince's treatment of women. It can be easily described as harassment.

A petition wont save anything. They do not listen to the IWC.

Most do. But of course the one person who does like PG has to be in my face about my talking about the 95% other people who don't want it. Of course.

By most you're probably referring to the IWC right? The same IWC who takes up about a fraction of the real audience? Personally, I don't have anything bad to say about the pg rating.

Yes in so many words. Taz did it on commentary just the other day.

Yeah but she wasn't brought in for her looks. She was brought in to be a dominant figure in woman's wrestling.

Because I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy? Because I know the difference between a show and real life? Yeah, she must have done a horrible job raising me for me to see plainly that it's just a show, they're just heel wrestlers that got real heat, and Mickie James is going to come out looking like a hero who beat her enemy's ass. Yeah it must all have to do with how my mom raised me.

What happens if Mickie loses at the end of this feud though? She got humiliated by her boss on her way out the door? From the looks of it, Mickie is going to be done with the business while she pursues another career.

 

[Dagger Dias]

You're right, heels DO make money, but doesn't that kind of run contrary to the whole point of being a heel?

No the whole point of whether someone is a face or a heel is to entertain the fans.

The term "heel" doesn't just apply to wrestling, it's a term used to describe a dishonest and generally unlikable person.

First of all.... "heel" is jargon to people who are not wrestling fans. Mention the phrase "he/she turned heel" to a large group of people who do not watch wrestling, I guarantee you that one or two, if any, will know what you just said meant.

If heels are making money, that means people are buying their merch...and if people are buying their merch, they must like the heel. Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose of being a heel?

Not at all. If fans like them it means they have the potential to turn face. Or maybe some fans just prefer heels.

At the end of the day, Good triumphing over Evil is always what makes something entertaining. Look no further than the movie industry for proof of that.

.... and the vast majority of movies nowadays SUCK. Might wanna look for a better argument there. So much for your "good vs evil is always the best" theory.

Does the heel get their chance to shine? Of course, if they didn't, then the face's heroic comeback doesn't have the intrigue to it. But at the end of the day, Good vs. Evil will ALWAYS draw more consistently than anything else.

Then why is the highest rated segment of all time a comedy bit with Mankind and the Rock and not "super mega face defeats super evil villain heel"?

But when you're talking about main-event heel vs. main-event face, which is what Michelle and Mickie are in the Diva's division, then it's absolutely absurd to try and humiliate your main-event face, since that does NOTHING to encourage the fan's belief that she can triumph over Evil. It just points out her flaws, and makes people think she may be incapable of beating Evil. And if people don't think there is a possibility for a happy ending, with Good beating Evil, then they're not going to buy the show.

It's NOT absurd. It did EVERYTHING to encourage fans belief that Mickie can/should overcome Michelle. It did point out her flaws, no human being is perfect. There IS a possibility of a happy ending.... and to argue against your point further, there ARE fans out there who would buy a show just because the matches look good to them, even without there being nothing but "good vs evil". It doesn't always HAVE to be there.

The only people who believe this are the fans who want to think they're better than wrestling itself.

Are you sure you aren't talking about yourself there? "the fans who want to think they're better than wrestling itself" the way you've been posting, with all your "this is how faces vs heels has to be" and "this is poor booking" rants.... sounds an awful lot like someone who thinks they are better than wrestling itself.

That's the whole point of professional wrestling.

We've been through this before. The point of professional wrestling has nothing to do with heels and faces. It's about two things. 1- the wrestling federation makes money, and 2- entertaining the fans.

No one wants to see the people they like get humiliated, what's the point of that?

To see them bounce back from their bad luck and have a great victory during the upcoming match. It gets them more support and more fans.

Having a long reign and having a successful one are two different things. Cena's year long reign was successful...ratings went up, PPV buys went up, revenue went up, house show attendance went up...business went up. Orton didn't have that.

Yeah but look at the fact that Cena's year long reign was an act that's nearly impossible to follow. Orton's was a successful one because people are still talking about it, he got more fans, WWE made money, and the fans were entertained. Sounds rather successful to me.

Was Goldberg a good guy or a bad guy? Was he someone that people wanted to see lose, or someone people wanted to see kick ass?

He was a good guy but as soon as he lost the undefeated streak people began to lose interest in him.

Then why the fuck are you here?

To discuss wrestling with other wrestling fans. Same reason that I would assume is why many of the other people are here too. Also, I could do without the explicit language, this isn't the Bar Room.

If you care about wrestling, you should care about it doing well, and this was not something they did well, from an on-air standpoint, from a socially conscious standpoint, or from a personnel standpoint.

I do care about it doing well, but I'm a college student, I don't work for WWE. I don't care about anything other than whether I enjoy their product or not. More fans should share that outlook, then they wouldn't complain nearly as much.

But that's not what the segment did, the segment just served to humiliate a top face in the company. Even if Mickie James was in on it and didn't care, it doesn't change the fact it was a dumb booking move, because it harms the fans belief in Mickie's ability to be better than heels.

The only way it could have been a bad booking move would be if Mickie didn't know about it ahead of time, and she ends up quitting because of it. Chances are that she did know, and this segment was meant to get her more fans and more heel heat for michelle. It doesn't change Mickie's ability to be better than heels. The way you talk you're making it sound like the top faces have to be absolutely perfect, well guess what? No human being is perfect!

Just because someone else doesn't share your black and white outdated view that "faces have to be heroes and heels have to be evil villains, and the faces have to win in the end or else no one makes any money and no one comes to the shows" doesn't make you automatically right. The fans have a right to root for whoever they want and order ppv's or watch tv shows for reasons other than "seeing a face beat a heel". Have you tried just watching the show to have a fun time watching wrestling, without worrying about the booking? Give it a try, you might like it.
_

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Haven't seen the segment yet but looking at the short version of it, there was no need to do that to Mickie James. If you're going to air a segment like that, it should be the face doing it to the heel. Of course you can say that it may make the face more sympathetic, but you can't take that risk. If the crowd is laughing at the face because of it, then that is bad business. I don't see Mickie lasting long in the WWE and I wouldn't blame her if she left to pursue other ventures.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

All I could think of is that Mickie didn't look too much different than Layla in terms of belly tone, and there is definitely not a difference between Mickie and Natalya, except that Mickie might have better tone. So, I'm not sure what the point of this was.

 

[X]

I wasn't really offended by this segment. It was in poor taste, sure, but it was nothing overtly distasteful, we've seen much worse. Seemed like your typical heel shtick, though Sly did bring up a good point in that you shouldn't humiliate your faces like that.

I'm doubtful that this is all some insidious conspiracy to humiliate Mickie for wanting to pursue other career options though. I know Vince is a spiteful prick, but I'm not sure he'd really care that much about Mickie leaving. He's never really given a shit about the divas.

It definitely wasn't humorous in the least bit though. WWE writing never is.

 

[Tenta]

Here's the Actual link to the Petition. Many thanks to Lord Sidious for pointing it out to me.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Vince/


This petition is to make aware of to Vince McMahon and World Wrestling Entertainment that the undersigned find no entertainment in his crude and offensive portrayal of women in the WWE. While we grant that his form of television is entertainment, there seems to be a common pattern of the mistreatment of women that Vince would probably describe as "fat". His rude portrayals of these women are not only disgusting, but also poor business practices for a business that routinely makes hundreds of millions of dollars per year in revenue.

What other company would you ever see that portrays women openly on television as fat, as has no qualms presenting to its audience that women can be judged by their body? The WWE has made it apparent that they place the value of the body over any other resource a woman has, and that those that don't meet Vince's grandiose expectations of a woman's body are subjected to humiliating and offensive "gimmicks", and are overall portrayed as lesser beings. This petition will cite specific examples of such horrific treatment of women, though be aware that these are not the only examples of Vince’s vulgar depiction of women.

First, in 1995, Vince McMahon brought in a woman wrestler by the name of Rhonda Sing. Sing was a dominant wrestler in many areas of Japan, and was a skilled professional. However, because Sing did not meet Vince’s ideal view of women, she was placed in the role of comedic entertainment. Much of this “comedy” is placed in the idea that Bertha is a large individual, and because she is so large, we must laugh at her. She was subjected to the humiliation of being called “fat” multiple times on television, which largely overshadowed her great work in the ring. Sing, frustrated with her “gimmick” of being fat, asked for her termination of her contract, and was what I’d deem the first victim of Vince’s poor treatment of “large” women. Consider the commentary in this match between Rhonda and Alundra Blayze, known in real life as Debra Miceli.

[YOUTUBE]Y9Y5HGSUpcE[/YOUTUBE]​

That was just flat out awful. It was horrible to hear Vince and Jerry destroy this woman's credibility. No wonder she left that chaunisit pig's company, to be better treated elsewhere.

Later, Vince brought in a woman by the name of Nicole Bass. Again, since she did not fit Vince’s lofty standard for a woman, she too was placed in a comedic role, with the joke being that Nicole is large, and we should laugh at her for it. Nicole, largely frustrated, left the promotion seven months after signing, and filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against the WWE, in a claim that WWE Executive Steve Lombardi sexually harassed her. Later, Vince would sign Nora Greenwald, who portrayed the character “Molly Holly”. Molly was always seen as a “pure” character, and eventually plated a character that could only be described as prudent. She spoke out against the WWE’s “divas”, which tended to express themselves mainly by undressing for the cameras. For her troubles, Molly was typically presented as a character with a “huge ass”. Often, it was stated that Molly was fat by announcers, and again, one can see Vince setting unrealistic expectations for his characters. The message was simple; if you didn’t fit Vince’s mold, you were going to be ridiculed on television.

Later, Vince would sign the widow of a wrestler he was partially responsible for the death of, Vickie Guerrero. Vickie was the wife of famed wrestler Eddie Guerrero, who passed away from acute heart failure arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease, most likely caused by steroid abuse, supported by Vince McMahon. Again, on television, she was paraded around as a “fat” woman, constantly chided by wrestlers for her shape. In one of her last “angles” before departing, one wrestler made a weekly mission to get into the face of Vickie Guerrero, and make squealing pig noises. This ultimately led to a wrestling match between Vickie and the wrestler, “fittingly” known as a “Hog Pen’s Match”. The match took place in a hog pen, with the running gag being that Vickie was the disgusting hog. Here's the actual match, just to show you how horeendous it truly is.



Finally, this Friday, Mickie James was wrestling a match on the WWE’s program, “Smackdown”. After the match, Mickie was subjected to a video “promo”, in which portrayed Mickie, yet again, as a pig. The running joke, again, was because Mickie didn’t fit Vince’s standards, she was subjected to being called fat. Again, here's a performance of last night's "skit":

[YOUTUBE]bG-90_D3wpI[/YOUTUBE]


The gag has officially run its course, and if anyone found it funny before, surely no one does. It isn’t clever television, nor is it it entertaining. Rather, it’s unethical treatment of Vince’s employees and exploitation of personal problems (weight) for little reason other than to humiliate the character. This, as a fan of the program, makes me extremely uncomfortable, and I doubt you’ll find a soul that disagrees with these sentiments. This is unacceptable behavior of a billion dollar industry, nor should it be celebrated. The purpose of this petition is to make aware of the horrendous actions of Vince McMahon and his staff of writers. Only in the WWE could women constantly be referred to as fat, and no one take offense, nor take action against it. Well, now, that is to change. Voice to the WWE that you will not tolerate such deplorable depictions of women, and that you will stand up for the rights of women.

 

[Billie Jean]

Yeah it is great to see. Vince and the WWE have gone too far in their disgusting portal of woman. At first you may laugh at some of these segments, which to my embarrassment I did on Friday, but when you realize this is someones life they are fucking with you know that something is out of order. In no way are some of these woman fat, in fact, they are some of the most healthier looking divas in the biz. I actualy find Mickie James must more attractive than Michael McCool, and I am sure I am not the minority. At first it was meh, but for it to be continuing is just wrong and something has to be done.

As for the petition, well done for someone actually caring for the horrible deeds of Vincent Kennady McMahon over the past ten years or so. It is not the sheer fact that he is worried about their weight, if someone were putting on a lot of weight and it was a diva, I might have even told her myself. But in all of the cases mentioned they are not even border line fat. These woman are athletes, and should be treated as such, with respect for all their curves, circles bones or whatever.

I'm going to sign and I am going to get as many as possible to sign too.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I disagree, respectfully.

I think these women choose to continue to work for Vince, who has a history of this sort of thing. They do not walk out when asked to be in one of these segments. Vince hires women, pays them, and, by choice, they do not leave.

I am not going to say that Vince empowers these women, per se, but at least he provides a venue for large women to get on TV outside of Jerry Springer. Let me know when Gray's Anatomy hires an overweight woman and portrays her as anything but someone near her deathbed.

 

[CH David]

Damn right. Signed it just before writing this. Vince's chauvinism went too far in my opinion this past Friday. He mistreats anyone he thinks are not suitable for his own shows, which is complete crap. Mickie is his best diva, and has a bit of a stomach, which for me makes her hotter than that little twig we know as Michelle McCool.

The segment was in poor taste. I understand it was meant to get Mickie sympathy and McCool heat, which it probably did, but we know it was also a pot shot at Mickie's weight. I am not surprised Vince would take that shot at her, but it is sending a bad message to kids, making fun of good people, even or so far as fat people, is okay? Not at all Vince.

 

[Tenta]

I disagree, respectfully.

I think these women choose to continue to work for Vince, who has a history of this sort of thing. They do not walk out when asked to be in one of these segments. Vince hires women, pays them, and, by choice, they do not leave.

I am not going to say that Vince empowers these women, per se, but at least he provides a venue for large women to get on TV outside of Jerry Springer. Let me know when Gray's Anatomy hires an overweight woman and portrays her as anything but someone near her deathbed.

Sigh... I had a feeling this was going to be the first argument. Which is cool, I understand it. However, I have to disagree with the sentiments of it. Again, the WWE offers the best possible choice to women wrestlers. Do you really expect them to turn down that money, man? I understand where you're coming from, but these women have to make a living.

Also, FTS, in case you didn't notice, a common theme to these women is that, after doing these disgusting acts, they did leave the WWE. All of these women have expressed unhappiness with how they were portrayed in the WWE. I remember seeing a shoot interview in which Molly Holly cried over how the "fat" gimmick made her feel. And you can't tell me that you didn't think those tears were legitimate from Mickie James, FTS.

As it stands, TNA is becoming a more viable option for women wrestlers. And one women who wasn't pushed by Vince as well as she should have been, based off her looks (Victoria), has already jumped ship. I wouldn't be shocked to see Mickie leave soon after this debacle. She's already talking about a singing career.

Finally, again, this speaks more from a busines standpoint. How many multi-million dollar corporations behave this way on a consistent basis? I mean, how many times do yo see this from other companies?

 

[ABMorales787]

You gotta wonder. Were Mickie's tears a part of the act? Or did her real feelings leak into the angle? Either way its still a disgusting act. Even if they agree to it, its still exploitation of the worker. When you think about it, its not just the women. The women fall victim to this more oftenly but the men suffer from this too.

 

[gd]

Ya, I agree with FTS here. They sign with the company and they know what they're getting themselves into. Sure, the WWE might be the best company out there, but thery aren't being forced to sign with them. Vince may not always treat them great, but I don't see why there needs to be a petition over it. This same type of treatment occurs to women in all sorts of different facets of life.