Petition to remove Donald Trump from HOF

[Mighty NorCal]

And like most responses to the bit of rhetoric I used, you completely avoided the point. Your argument seems to be that if someone says they're a country, and says that they're doing it in the name of a religion, then it's acceptable to assume anyone who identifies with that religion also identifies with said country declarers.

I don't think it "seems" to be that at all, since I never said that anywere at any time ?

SO then, our white supremacist declares himself a "sovereign citizen" on a ranch in Nevada. (Some white supremacists identify with Christianity, so we can't be too careful and have to assume ALL white supremacists identify with Christianity.) He has his own country now, even if no one else recognizes it. He's doing it for the sake of Christianity. (Be careful here, there's a real world reference coming round the bend.) And if we're going to talk about large-scale atrocities committed by Christian-oriented white supremacists:

So then, what's the difference? The devil you know being better than the one you don't?

Actively. Right now. Caliphate. An actual state, not a ranch in Nevada. Thousands. Daily. One million supporters. Recruiters arrested daily. Large scale atrocities with fair regularity over the last 12 years.


If you cant get why the comparison is totally useless, like I said...see the other threads we just had to make recently for further explanation.

 

[Барбоса]

Once again, Trump clarified in an interview that no one is going to any camps, and American Muslims would be allowed back into the country.

I meant it in the sense that while there is a record of the American courts allowing racial discrimination based on an insignificant minority, not specifically interning Muslims.

Any again, while Trump might have belatedly clarified what he meant (but did not actually say originally), his repeated soundbites repeat the rhetoric and that is what is infecting the American electorate.

Which is why better background vetting and an overall regional ban is being suggested. Much like it was in the Iranian Hostage crisis. The form being shit is precisely WHY a ban needs to occur until better measures are worked out.

Will it 100% stop everything? Of course not, but just as with the gun control debate, doing something, anything, that will mitigate to the best of our abilities, is better than doing nothing.

Something useful is targeting IS itself. Doing nothing would be better than targeting Islam.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

racial discrimination based on an insignificant minority.

Cool, this has nothing to do with race, it has to do with trying to come up with a reasonable way to differentiate people coming in under the guise of faith when they actually belong to a death cult.

Something useful is targeting IS itself.

But that's what they want.

. Doing nothing would be better than targeting Islam.

One man's opinion. Once again, no one is "targeting" Islam in the dramatized way some may want to put it out there as. (NOT you specifically, but many others)

I agree the soundbite picking media are fucking idiots. Not just for misconstruing someone unfairly, but also for rebel-rousing and pouring gas on the fire of others.

 

[Rayne]

Actively. Right now. Caliphate. An actual state, not a ranch in Nevada. Thousands. Daily. One million supporters. Recruiters arrested daily. Large scale atrocities with fair regularity over the last 12 years.


If you cant get why the comparison is totally useless, like I said...see the other threads we just had to make recently for further explanation.

Actively? Right now?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/24/majority-of-fatal-attacks-on-us-soil-carried-out-b/

White supremacists are leading by a two-to-one margin since 9/11.

So, trying very hard to follow your logic ("if you don't seem the problem" might be good for getting people who already agree with you to rally up, but it's a pretty shitty way to convince anyone else of your ideas), the dividing line between when you can associate terrorism with all members of a religion is when someone who says they're a member of a religion self-declares a state that reaches a certain minimum size?

One man's opinion. Once again, no one is "targeting" Islam in the dramatized way some may want to put it out there as. (NOT you specifically, but many others)

No one's targetting Islam. But they aren't really worried about Islam getting stuck in any crossfire either.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Actively? Right now?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/24/majority-of-fatal-attacks-on-us-soil-carried-out-b/

Did you actually read that article? Do you think the things it says helps what your trying to say, even past the obvious point which ive said repeatedly "none of these people is claiming to do any of these things in the name of Jesus H. Christ" . Being a White Supremecist or anti government often has nothing to do with religious belief.

So, trying very hard to follow your logic

If its hard to follow, it says more about you than me

the dividing line between when you can associate terrorism with all members of a religion

Once again, no one is saying that. Quite the inverse actually. All terrorists within a state with active recruiters and a standing Army all associate THEMSELVES as members of one religion.

someone who says they're a member of a religion self-declares a state that reaches a certain minimum size?

Are you really this naïve to think it has no relevancy ?

No one's targetting Islam. .

Glad we cleared that up.

But they aren't really worried about Islam getting stuck in any crossfire either.

Most clearly exhibited by the extremely rich and powerful Muslim nations which BORDER THE FUCKING CALIPHATE

 

[Барбоса]

I fail to see how saying you are going to "ban Muslims from entering the US" does not come under the heading of "targeting Islam."

 

[Slash-LN]

WWE saying they aren't in the business of politics or however they worded it while factually accurate was a tad comical to me given the whole Linda campaign stuff and all.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I fail to see how saying you are going to "ban Muslims from entering the US" does not come under the heading of "targeting Islam."

Foreign Muslims from places known to radicalize, as a TEMPORARY measure until we can figure out a way to keep American citizens (including Muslims) safe.


No one is trying to whipe Islam off the face of the earth.

 

[Ty Burna]

I fail to see how saying you are going to "ban Muslims from entering the US" does not come under the heading of "targeting Islam."

Not to mention all this rhetoric is causing American Muslims, Sikhs, and generally anyone with the skin tone color that's slightly darker but not too dark to be assaulted and accused of being terrorists, and it's starting to become more and more of a normal thing. It's starting to breed massive hatred and fear.

Foreign Muslims from places known to radicalize, as a TEMPORARY measure until we can figure out a way to keep American citizens (including Muslims) safe.


No one is trying to whipe Islam off the face of the earth.

So with what I said above what in the blue fucking hell are we doing for Muslims that are Americans? Not a god damn thing but letting the underlying racism that has suddenly become very prevalent in our society become bolder and bolder. It's sickening and all this talk has only made it worse. They're not safe right now. Sikhs are being targeted as well because they wear a turban. This isn't about keeping people safe. This is making shit way the fuck worse for people here already and bringing the stupid ugly out of those who feel fucking entitled because they were born white and raised Christian.

Trump doesn't have a god damn plan to temporarily block Muslims from foreign countries. It's just like his immigration bullshit when he first announced he was running. Stir up the racism and capitalize on the fear. This is all it's about, gaining power not protecting a damn thing.

 

[Rayne]

Did you actually read that article? Do you think the things it says helps what your trying to say, even past the obvious point which ive said repeatedly "none of these people is claiming to do any of these things in the name of Jesus H. Christ" . Being a White Supremecist or anti government often has nothing to do with religious belief.

The KKK declares themselves a Christian organization. Swing again, batter. We're still trying to figure out where exactly you draw the dividing line between when you can associate everyone who believes in "a religion" as believing in a specific set of beliefs that some people in that religion follow, and when you can't.

So far, it seems to be that you have to have self-declared a country, and it has to be of a certain size. Do all Jewish people believe in expansionist Zionism?

If its hard to follow, it says more about you than me

Here we agree. My standard for logic runs a bit higher than "if you don't already agree with me." I dislike circular logic, you seem to be a huge fan of it. It does say a great deal more about me, because these are things we already knew about you.

Once again, no one is saying that. Quite the inverse actually. All terrorists within a state with active recruiters and a standing Army all associate THEMSELVES as members of one religion.

OK. Now, what about the billion or so Muslims who aren't terrorists within a state, etc. etc.? This is the argument you're so strenuously avoiding. We all agree ISIS is a bad thing, let's move past that. We need you to explain why a Muslim in Nepal should be barred from the United States because some Muslims thousands of miles away are terrorists.

Are you really this naïve to think it has no relevancy ?

No, I'm asking you to draw a dividing line. Apparently there is some sort of line between when it's OK to associate all members of a religion with a specific set of religious beliefs, and when it's not. I'm trying to ask you to define that line.

Glad we cleared that up.

Fantastic. Not even more than a dozen posts exchanged, and you're already slicing quotes to play quote wars.

Please provide a line of logic not based around restating that there are people in the world who call themselves Muslims that are also terrorists.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

So far, it seems to be that you have to have self-declared a country, and it has to be of a certain size.

Once again, im not sure what to say response to this beside.....Uh, YEA. At what point should it matter in your opinion? When they have ALL of Iraq and Syria? Saudi? They take Turkey? At that point will it become clear how stupid it is to compare them to churches and institutions who number in the 100s and haven't committed large scale organized violence with regular frequency in years?

OK. Now, what about the billion or so Muslims who aren't terrorists within a state, etc. etc.? This is the argument you're so strenuously avoiding. We all agree ISIS is a bad thing, let's move past that. We need you to explain why a Muslim in Nepal should be barred from the United States because some Muslims thousands of miles away are terrorists.

Well, like I said, Trump clarified later that it was going to be more regionally focused than that, catered towards areas shown to repeatedly produce radicalism....

and even it wasn't, so what? Its temporary, until a better system can be created. Until then, enjoy Nepal. There is no law of earth that says we have to keep our borders open to anyone, for anything.

Like I said, its not comfortable, but the Presidents job is to ensure the safety of American citizens, Muslims included, to the best of his ability. No one is attacking foreign Muslims, no one is outlawing Islam. You just can't come here until a better screening process is created. If it was any other religion the story would be the same, much like the FAA no fly list.

No, I'm asking you to draw a dividing line. Apparently there is some sort of line between when it's OK to associate all members of a religion with a specific set of religious beliefs, and when it's not. I'm trying to ask you to define that line.

And once again, im telling you no one is associating all Muslims with terrorism. Are they being rounded up and deported from America and every other Western Country? Is there a worldwide banning on Islam?


No one is associating THEM with anything. Its terrorists who associate themselves with IT. Until we have a way to screen which is which, you have to do what you have to do in the name of safety.


Not all Muslims are terrorists. But some are. Large numbers of them are. Until you can tell the difference to the best of your ability, you can't just let people flow freely.

Is that what you would have be done? Nothing? In the name of not hurting people's feelings?

Please provide a line of logic not based around restating that there are people in the world who call themselves Muslims that are also terrorists.

They are an Islamic state using literal interpretations of the Qu'Ran to kill thousands in the most barbaric way possible. I have no idea what possible relevancy this last part of your post could hold to the discussion.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

So with what I said above what in the blue fucking hell are we doing for Muslims that are Americans? Not a god damn thing but letting the underlying racism that has suddenly become very prevalent in our society become bolder and bolder. It's sickening and all this talk has only made it worse. They're not safe right now. Sikhs are being targeted as well because they wear a turban. This isn't about keeping people safe. This is making shit way the fuck worse for people here already and bringing the stupid ugly out of those who feel fucking entitled because they were born white and raised Christian.

Trump doesn't have a god damn plan to temporarily block Muslims from foreign countries. It's just like his immigration bullshit when he first announced he was running. Stir up the racism and capitalize on the fear. This is all it's about, gaining power not protecting a damn thing.

Itll be a blast when a group of these fucks come here and blow up a mosque or behead some less conservative Muslims on American soil (since that is their main target anyways)





Maybe then this will all click for everyone.

 

[jmt225]

Not to mention all this rhetoric is causing American Muslims, Sikhs, and generally anyone with the skin tone color that's slightly darker but not too dark to be assaulted and accused of being terrorists, and it's starting to become more and more of a normal thing. It's starting to breed massive hatred and fear.

Where is this happening at? I don't see many reports about hate crimes committed against Muslims. Naughty words on Facebook? Sure. And I'm sure some get dirty looks from time to time from bigots while out in public, but does it really go further than that outside of a rare occurrence here and there?

In the cell phone camera age if Muslims were being harassed to such a large degree in this country there would be videos of it all over Youtube/WSHH/Etc.

 

[Ty Burna]

Where is this happening at? I don't see many reports about hate crimes committed against Muslims. Naughty words on Facebook? Sure. And I'm sure some get dirty looks from time to time from bigots while out in public, but does it really go further than that outside of a rare occurrence here and there?

In the cell phone camera age if Muslims were being harassed to such a large degree in this country there would be videos of it all over Youtube/WSHH/Etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/10/u...dalism-of-sikh-temple-in-california.html?_r=0

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news...cle_b7332419-ea14-5f23-842e-3b8beeb7ed33.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/u...uslim-americans-and-mosques-rise-sharply.html

https://www.rt.com/usa/326360-sikh-clerk-terrorist-shot/

http://www.thecitizen.in/NewsDetail...:/Sikhs/Harassed/And/Denied/Entry/To/NFL/Game

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/9/10/sikh-american-man-attacked-and-called-terrorist.html

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/263715-targeting-of-mosques-muslims-reaches-new-highs

I mean do you REALLY want me to go on? Cursory Google Search is all that's needed to gather some research good sir.

 

[Rayne]

and even it wasn't, so what? Its temporary, until a better system can be created. Until then, enjoy Nepal. There is no law of earth that says we have to keep our borders open to anyone, for anything.

And once again, im telling you no one is associating all Muslims with terrorism. Are they being rounded up and deported from America and every other Western Country? Is there a worldwide banning on Islam?

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, and good night. Please remember to tip your waiters.

No one is associating THEM with anything. Its terrorists who associate themselves with IT. Until we have a way to screen which is which, you have to do what you have to do in the name of safety.

"Do what you have to do in the name of safety." See, here's where we surprisingly agree! However, I prefer to take a sane, logical approach to what I'm doing, and disagree with the idea that "any action is better than none". I'm very familiar with the dubious history of "do what you have to do in the name of safety"; just to get started, we have the McCarthy hearings, Japanese internment, the German invasion of Poland, and holy shit, I could literally go on for pages with just a list.

Is that what you would have be done? Nothing? In the name of not hurting people's feelings?

Actually, I'd do exactly what we're doing now, because despite what people are saying in election season, it seems to be working. Teenagers in movie theaters (just movie theaters) have a higher death toll in this country than Islamist extremists over the past ten years.

They are an Islamic state using literal interpretations of the Qu'Ran to kill thousands in the most barbaric way possible. I have no idea what possible relevancy this last part of your post could hold to the discussion.

Because you are repeatedly asserting that anyone who calls themselves a Muslim has to be treated as if they agree with those particular people who call themselves Muslims. To you, restating that bad people exist seems to be a line of argument. We get that there are some Muslims who are bad people. This is not new information to the discussion, or information that anyone is disputing.

 

[The Butcher]

Where is this happening at? I don't see many reports about hate crimes committed against Muslims. Naughty words on Facebook? Sure. And I'm sure some get dirty looks from time to time from bigots while out in public, but does it really go further than that outside of a rare occurrence here and there?

In the cell phone camera age if Muslims were being harassed to such a large degree in this country there would be videos of it all over Youtube/WSHH/Etc.

Just a few I've come across in the last couple weeks or so:

Sikhs refused entry to a Denver Broncos game because they wear turbans.

A pig's head left outside a mosque in Philadelphiahttp://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/philadelphia-mosque-pigs-head/index.html

Muslim girl harassed and assaulted by classmates in New York City

The scale is definitely debatable, but the harassment of Muslims and Sikhs in the wake of San Bernardino and Donald Trump's proposal is real.

 

[Rayne]

Itll be a blast when a group of these fucks come here and blow up a mosque or behead some less conservative Muslims on American soil (since that is their main target anyways)

Maybe then this will all click for everyone.

I knew we were bound to hit the "someday you'll see how right I am" statement before much longer. Because you sure as hell sound like a paranoid lunatic today.

 

[The Butcher]

I knew we were bound to hit the "someday you'll see how right I am" statement before much longer. Because you sure as hell sound like a paranoid lunatic today.

He's not wrong, though. It will quite literally be a blast.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

, we have the McCarthy hearings, Japanese internment, the German invasion of Poland, and holy shit, I could literally go on for pages with just a list.

And when those things happen, then a concerned dialog is absolutely worthy. Its a temp ban on immigration.

No one is invading or interning a damn thing though. Like I said, a lot of dramatization.

Actually, I'd do exactly what we're doing now, because despite what people are saying in election season, it seems to be working. Teenagers in movie theaters (just movie theaters) have a higher death toll in this country than Islamist extremists over the past ten years.

Yea man, I remember all those stories about the Islamic State during the last ten years.

Meanwhile, Paris, San Bernadino, and a near weekly arrests of admitted ISIS recruiters inside the US occur.

But hey, lets continue ignoring what is actively occurring. Like you said, it works so well so far. I mean its not like ISIS continued to expand its reach to the point were they are now carrying out large scale killings in western countries.

Because you are repeatedly asserting that anyone who calls themselves a Muslim has to be treated as if they agree with those particular people who call themselves Muslims.

I have never asserted that, one time, and have provided examples of such. No matter how much you want this to be the case because its easy, it simply is not.


If you were debating Slyfox, this is the point he would call you a liar. You are making statements that are false, and plainly so. That is lying.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Just a few I've come across in the last couple weeks or so:

Sikhs refused entry to a Denver Broncos game because they wear turbans.

A pig's head left outside a mosque in Philadelphiahttp://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/philadelphia-mosque-pigs-head/index.html

Muslim girl harassed and assaulted by classmates in New York City

The scale is definitely debatable, but the harassment of Muslims and Sikhs in the wake of San Bernardino and Donald Trump's proposal is real.

Surely these had everything to do with Trump, and not Muslim extremists shooting people up at a Christmas party, or trying to carry out large scale bombing at a sporting event.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I knew we were bound to hit the "someday you'll see how right I am" statement before much longer. Because you sure as hell sound like a paranoid lunatic today.

A "paranoid lunatic" because I don't take issue on a temporary immigration ban while we try to improve our process to better ensure the safety of Americans?


Alright

 

[Ty Burna]

Itll be a blast when a group of these fucks come here and blow up a mosque or behead some less conservative Muslims on American soil (since that is their main target anyways)





Maybe then this will all click for everyone.

Good then let's continue letting fucking fear control us and treat a certain section of people like fucking animals in a barn and tag them so we know which is good and which is bad. I'll get the fire and the brand. Hell we can even get all people involved. Would you prefer the Star of David, a Cross, or something personalized for your own religious thoughts. Let's categorize everyone and keep every group away from one another. It'd just be like going to camp. I hope the ovens work for each area. It doesn't matter if some are good and some are bad, let's play it safe and round them all up and put them in their special little places. I mean, certainly even if they're good they can be influenced by the bad ones, so kill em all and be done. The slope is slippery as fuck let me tell you.

We created this mess in the first place, now we want to close our eyes and cover our ears singing "La La La can't hear youuuuuuuu, this is your problem now". So now we turn a blind eye to those that we have caused immense pain and suffering, turn our noses up and say, you ain't allowed here fuck you. Unless of course you jump through this hoop for us and do a little dance, then maybe we'll let you in. Oh but wait, if you do come here and do everything right to become one of us, you're still not because you still look like you and you're going to get assaulted, verbally and physically, your possessions destroyed, god forbid you're a business owner, that won't do. A little arson will take care of that. But you can't go to your religious group for help because they're the ones instigating terrorism here! So we'll just have our friendly FBI group keep an eye on you. Never mind those white folks over there marching in front of you with guns menacing you. It's all perfectly legal after all!

They're all fucked either way in this country any more. Can't go someplace else because you might be a bad one just due to where you're from. Can't stay where you are because the bad ones are going to torture or kill you. Better off joining them so you can at least survive to the next day.

 

[The Butcher]

Surely these had everything to do with Trump, and not Muslim extremists shooting people up at a Christmas party, or trying to carry out large scale bombing at a sporting event.

I said San Bernardino. I'm not against you.

Here's where I side with NorCal and anyone who sees ISIS as a clear and present danger:

I fought in Iraq during the surge. It is by far the most surreal and intense period of my life, and I've had a busy one. I don't harp on it or thump my chest about it because to me it was just a thing that I did. Dropped out of college and needed a job. I digress. The fact is a lot of people in the Middle East and Africa want us dead. No matter the justification or propaganda, that is a fact. They don't care who we support in the election. They don't care if we're nice to them or not. They don't care. We can't handle them with kid gloves. I don't agree with Trump's proposal, and I'm out of the fighting business so I don't have the strategy chops. I just know that ISIS and Al Qaeda are very real and very dangerous. They won't play by our rules and they won't show us any mercy.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Good then let's continue letting fucking fear control us and treat a certain section of people like fucking animals in a barn and tag them so we know which is good and which is bad. I'll get the fire and the brand. Hell we can even get all people involved. Would you prefer the Star of David, a Cross, or something personalized for your own religious thoughts. Let's categorize everyone and keep every group away from one another. It'd just be like going to camp. I hope the ovens work for each area. It doesn't matter if some are good and some are bad, let's play it safe and round them all up and put them in their special little places. I mean, certainly even if they're good they can be influenced by the bad ones, so kill em all and be done. The slope is slippery as fuck let me tell you.

Bit dramatic. Its a temporary immigration ban.

We created this mess in the first place, now we want to close our eyes and cover our ears singing "La La La can't hear youuuuuuuu, this is your problem now"

Well this is useful. Let me know how the time machine technology is coming along.

So now we turn a blind eye to those that we have caused immense pain and suffering, turn our noses up and say, you ain't allowed here fuck you. Unless of course you jump through this hoop for us and do a little dance, then maybe we'll let you in. Oh but wait, if you do come here and do everything right to become one of us, you're still not because you still look like you and you're going to get assaulted, verbally and physically, your possessions destroyed, god forbid you're a business owner, that won't do. A little arson will take care of that. But you can't go to your religious group for help because they're the ones instigating terrorism here! So we'll just have our friendly FBI group keep an eye on you. Never mind those white folks over there marching in front of you with guns menacing you. It's all perfectly legal after all!

They're all fucked either way in this country any more. Can't go someplace else because you might be a bad one just due to where you're from. Can't stay where you are because the bad ones are going to torture or kill you. Better off joining them so you can at least survive to the next day.

Once again, bit dramatic.


What exactly are your solutions here?

 

[Ty Burna]

Here's where I side with NorCal and anyone who sees ISIS as a clear and present danger:

I fought in Iraq during the surge. It by far the most surreal and intense period of my life, and I've had a busy one. I don't harp on it or thump my chest about it because to me it was just a thing that I did. Dropped out of college and needed a job. I digress. The fact is a lot of people in the Middle East and Africa want us dead. No matter the justification or propaganda, that is a fact. They don't care who we support in the election. They don't care if we're nice to them or not. They don't care. We can't handle them with kid gloves. I don't agree with Trump's proposal, and I'm out of the fighting business so I don't have the strategy chops. I just know that ISIS and Al Qaeda are very real and very dangerous. They won't play by our rules and they won't show us any mercy.

All perfectly fine. We have to take ISIS out. I have not one iota of a problem with that. The sooner we can take that death cult off the map the better. But let's not lose what little morals we may have left as a nation in the process of doing so. This banning proposal and the heavy rhetoric that has been going on spreads the fear and hatred of Muslims. Then it's tagging them and other government approved invasion into who they are.

As a nation we fought that machine 70 years ago and won. Let's not become that very machine we despised.