Petition to remove Donald Trump from HOF

[The Butcher]

All perfectly fine. We have to take ISIS out. I have not one iota of a problem with that. The sooner we can take that death cult off the map the better. But let's not lose what little morals we may have left as a nation in the process of doing so. This banning proposal and the heavy rhetoric that has been going on spreads the fear and hatred of Muslims. Then it's tagging them and other government approved invasion into who they are.

As a nation we fought that machine 70 years ago and won. Let's not become that very machine we despised.

I hear ya. I'm just tokin and talking. Wish I had a solution. It tears me in two. I also know discrimination and am all for civil rights.

Figures this thread would get good in The Bar Room.

d_hendo! Where you at!?

 

[Rayne]

A "paranoid lunatic" because I don't take issue on a temporary immigration ban while we try to improve our process to better ensure the safety of Americans?


Alright

No, you're a paranoid lunatic because you're unrealistic about the threats to your own safety, and can't justify them in any fashion beyond repeating the statement that bad people exist.

And when those things happen, then a concerned dialog is absolutely worthy. Its a temp ban on immigration.

Some people learn from history; other people don't and are doomed to repeat it. When the logic you're trying to use is the same fear-based logic that inspired so many other countless episodes of shitheaddery throughout history, perhaps now is the time for a concerned dialogue.

I have never asserted that, one time, and have provided examples of such. No matter how much you want this to be the case because its easy, it simply is not.

If you were debating Slyfox, this is the point he would call you a liar. You are making statements that are false, and plainly so. That is lying.

If I were debating Slyfox, I'd be debating an opponent who uses logic in their arguments and can be respected for it, even if I disagree with him. Against you, that is not the case. Because you very plainly are stating that all Muslims have to be treated as if they were potential terrorists. Maybe you don't think that all Muslims are terrorists, but you're pretty unequivocally on the side that any given Muslim could be a terrorist, so sorry Nepal.

If I were debating Slyfox, this debate long ago would have progressed past the "you'll see someday I'm right" phase. If I were debating Slyfox, maybe you'd learn something by watching two people who know how to do it.

 

[Ty Burna]

Bit dramatic. Its a temporary immigration ban.




Well this is useful. Let me know how the time machine technology is coming along.




Once again, bit dramatic.


What exactly are your solutions here?

My point is all it takes is a continuation of where we are headed to slide down to the fucking dregs of history all over again. And if you can't notice the sarcastic tone I was portraying, it was dramatic for the sake of dramatic, but how close exactly are we to that? Closer than you probably think. It may be a temporary ban but it's one step closer to becoming something we should never be. You think it's a joke but look at the poll numbers. Even if Trump didn't believe in this bullshit he's spewing, the fact that the numbers are saying so many of these people are AGREEING with this bullshit is scary enough. We have developed a culture of fear and now they're capitalizing and profiting off of it, in money and power. To keep that up you have to keep going one step further. It seems innocuous enough now, but everything has to start somewhere.

Let me put it this way in IT terms ironically enough. Our immigration process is like an anti virus program. All these files/people want to come into the computer/country. The anti virus/immigration is charged with weeding out what's good and what's bad already. The bad ones are denied access, the good ones let in. But, no anti virus program is 100% effective, some bad files do slip through, just as with immigration. So the safest way is to not let anything in, cut the computer off from the internet. Just like cutting our country off from the rest of the world. But what good is a computer without the internet these days? Sure you can write some documents up, but you can't send them out. Cutting us off from the world means we do not get to enjoy the aspects of globalization. So you get bored not having the internet. You return access back to your computer. Anti virus does it's job, but guess what, still not 100% effective as nothing has changed, some bad files get in, you get infected. Bad people get in, bad things happen. No process will ever be 100% effective, but I do believe the process as it stands now is probably doing the best it can do, and perhaps reforms may not be able to help that.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

No, you're a paranoid lunatic because you're unrealistic about the threats to your own safety, and can't justify them in any fashion beyond repeating the statement that bad people exist.

Not my own safety, I would openly welcome ISIS to America with open arms, so that we may all hash out our differences.

Im concerned with the safety of Americans at large, of all religions. You say its unrealistic, but events of the past few months (and if you pay attention to the middle east, the last couple years IE the rise of the Caliphate) say otherwise.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

My point is all it takes is a continuation of where we are headed to slide down to the fucking dregs of history all over again.

But we aren't yet.

, but I do believe the process as it stands now is probably doing the best it can do, and perhaps reforms may not be able to help that.

Perhaps, indeed.


Just as with the gun conversation, it doesn't mean you simply don't even try.

 

[Rayne]

Not my own safety, I would openly welcome ISIS to America with open arms, so that we may all hash out our differences.

Im concerned with the safety of Americans at large, of all religions. You say its unrealistic, but events of the past few months (and if you pay attention to the middle east, the last couple years IE the rise of the Caliphate) say otherwise.

You're not scared. You're a real, tough American. Wave that flag!

Because if someone doesn't agree with how you think terrorism should be fought, they don't think terrorism should be fought. You'd be endearing if you didn't vote.

 

[jmt225]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/10/u...dalism-of-sikh-temple-in-california.html?_r=0

Basically, graffiti on a church, okay.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news...cle_b7332419-ea14-5f23-842e-3b8beeb7ed33.html

Dude, did you read that? The article is reaching so far as to mention airport searching and a basketball player getting racial slurs yelled at him. The most violent thing in the article (outside of the Wade Michael Page incident, which we all know about) is a Chicago-area teenager beating up a Taxi driver and calling him Bin Laden while doing so.... sounds like typical road rage that happens everyday in this country. And then of course they find a fire incident to harp on about, but oh, look, it's from 2013.

If this is the best they can come up with then I still say there's not a real problem of harassment against Muslims in this country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/u...uslim-americans-and-mosques-rise-sharply.html

Threats and graffiti, okay. Because regular people aren't threatened everyday for various reasons and normal businesses aren't "vandalized" by graffiti every single day.

https://www.rt.com/usa/326360-sikh-clerk-terrorist-shot/

Typical gas station robbery looks like to me.

http://www.thecitizen.in/NewsDetail...:/Sikhs/Harassed/And/Denied/Entry/To/NFL/Game

So one incident of them being denied of entry at a football game. Shocking it comes from San Diego. You'd figure the Chargers would accept all the ticket sales they could get.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/9/10/sikh-american-man-attacked-and-called-terrorist.html

Again, like I mentioned above, this is typical road rage. The guy who did this is a piece of shit and I hope he gets the harshest punishment possible, but am I to believe he ONLY flipped out because the driver was Muslim, or is it likely he was going to do something violent against anyone weaker than him who pissed him off while driving? My vote is for the latter.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/263715-targeting-of-mosques-muslims-reaches-new-highs

That article doesn't go into any detail whatsoever. Sounds like just more tales of graffiti to me.

I mean do you REALLY want me to go on? Cursory Google Search is all that's needed to gather some research good sir.

Yes, I do, because so far you only shared a few stories where nothing truly horrible happened (outside of the one mention of the Page incident from a few years ago), except for a taxi driver getting beat up. I can find literally dozens of horrible stories that happened to white people and black people, women of all color just yesterday right now at this moment. Yet you searched for the worst stories you could find on Muslims being harassed in this country this year and THAT was the best you could find after acting like there was some kind of epidemic of violence against Muslims in this country?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

You're not scared. You're a real, tough American. Wave that flag!

Im not, and I will wave my flag, thanks. As far as tough, that's up to interpretation I guess.

Because if someone doesn't agree with how you think terrorism should be fought, they don't think terrorism should be fought.

Once again, something I never actually said (you have a nasty habit of that) but I did not see any ideas on how terrorism should be fought coming from you other than saying we should keep doing what we were doing.

You'd be endearing if you didn't vote.

Good thing I don't then, huh?

 

[jmt225]

Sikhs refused entry to a Denver Broncos game because they wear turbans.

I saw this in Ty's post. Good thing the Chargers are most likely moving anyway.

A pig's head left outside a mosque in Philadelphia

Okay, that's worse than graffiti and pretty fucking disgusting. Doesn't surprise me it came from a shit hole like Philly.

Muslim girl harassed and assaulted by classmates in New York City

People get bullied literally every single day in this country. One incident of a Muslim girl being bullied and it makes national news. That seems like special treatment to me.

BTW, on a completely different matter, I love how the south gets bamboozled as being the "racist" part of the country, yet all these stories you and Ty posted are from everywhere but here. And we have a pretty damn large Muslim/Arab demographic in Baton Rouge specifically.

The scale is definitely debatable, but the harassment of Muslims and Sikhs in the wake of San Bernardino and Donald Trump's proposal is real.

I still don't think there's any real cause of discern. In the heat of the moment, some Mosques got vandalized. Is it right? Of course not. But does it mean people are starting a war against Muslims in this country? No. It will all blow over. The cowards committing these little acts of vandalism and shit like that would never actually throw their lives away to hurt or kill Muslims. Americans aren't that dedicated to a cause. Every blue moon you get a psycho who is, but 99.9% of Americans aren't stupid enough to throw their lives away over the hatred of a religion. Love/lust/money/drugs.... yes. Religion? No.

 

[Rayne]

Once again, something I never actually said (you have a nasty habit of that) but I did not see any ideas on how terrorism should be fought coming from you other than saying we should keep doing what we were doing.

I just have this uncanny ability to read between the lines of someone's argument. It comes from growing up with three younger sisters, I'm very familiar with the "but I didn't actually say that!" rhetoric, where you imply a line of argument without explicitly writing specific words. Basically, you argue like a teenage girl.

You didn't see any new ideas about terrorism from me, because I am very confident in the way we are currently handling terrorism. If something isn't broke, you don't fix it. I do not subscribe to your "if we aren't changing what we're doing, we aren't doing anything" logic; that is the line of reasoning people use when they're trying to rush people into a decision without thinking about it. I don't accuse you of trying to rush people; I accuse you of being very well rushed. You've been so well rushed that you can't even explain your own line of reasoning without resorting to "someday you'll all see" arguments.

Good thing I don't then, huh?

EMPHATICALLY.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I just have this uncanny ability to read between the lines of someone's argument. It comes from growing up with three younger sisters, I'm very familiar with the "but I didn't actually say that!" rhetoric, where you imply a line of argument without explicitly writing specific words. Basically, you argue like a teenage girl.

So then you admit you just make up what someone's point is, regardless of you being wrong (which you have been repeatedly in this thread?) and that I DIDNT actually say the these things? well good.

You should take that ability to read minds on the road.

Oh wait, you can't read minds, your just making assumptions based on whatever the easiest go-to arguments are. Unfortunately, like I said, we have all moved past such things quite a while ago. So your assumptions are wholly incorrect

EMPHATICALLY.

O
K


Boy, ya really smoked me on that one didn't ya!

 

[Rayne]

So then you admit you just make up what someone's point is, regardless of you being wrong (which you have been repeatedly in this thread?) and that I DIDNT actually say the these things? well good.

You should take that ability to read minds on the road.

Oh wait, you can't read minds, your just making assumptions based on whatever the easiest go-to arguments are. Unfortunately, like I said, we have all moved past such things quite a while ago. So your assumptions are wholly incorrect

Your argument: That we should bar all Muslims from the United States.
The justification: That there are some Muslims who are terrorists.

You are treating all members of one group in a specific way, based on the actions of a subset of that group. Do I have to draw a Euler diagram for you, like I did with Crocker? Because there is no other possible way to interpret your argument, unless we accept the possibility that you could be deliberately contradicting yourself. Or maybe (actually, also) you're just doing an absolutely shitty job of explaining your position, and doing so in a fashion that's incapable of convincing anyone besides the people who already agree with you.

 

[The Butcher]

jmt, I literally just came across those stories while browsing the web. You seemed to deny that it was happening, and I couldn't sit back. I haven't seen it personally and...

BTW, on a completely different matter, I love how the south gets bamboozled as being the "racist" part of the country, yet all these stories you and Ty posted are from everywhere but here. And we have a pretty damn large Muslim/Arab demographic in Baton Rouge specifically.

...I'm in the south too! I hear you about the bad rep we get.

I still don't think there's any real cause of discern. In the heat of the moment, some Mosques got vandalized. Is it right? Of course not. But does it mean people are starting a war against Muslims in this country? No. It will all blow over. The cowards committing these little acts of vandalism and shit like that would never actually throw their lives away to hurt or kill Muslims. Americans aren't that dedicated to a cause. Every blue moon you get a psycho who is, but 99.9% of Americans aren't stupid enough to throw their lives away over the hatred of a religion. Love/lust/money/drugs.... yes. Religion? No.

Maybe it's because I'm a minority, but I take notice to this stuff. I'm not willing to say it's a huge problem either, which I why I said that the scale of this tension is debatable. Again, I haven't seen it with my own eyes. It could easily become a huge problem and rhetoric like Trump's does whip the far right loons into a frenzy. That I have seen. I'm not sure what percentage of Americans are stupid enough to take it to a hostile level, but I'd bet anything that it's growing. Mostly with you, though, and definitely hope you're right.

 

[Rayne]

Is that what you would have be done? Nothing? In the name of not hurting people's feelings

Because if someone doesn't agree with how you think terrorism should be fought, they don't think terrorism should be fought.

Once again, something I never actually said (you have a nasty habit of that) but I did not see any ideas on how terrorism should be fought coming from you other than saying we should keep doing what we were doing.

It'd be easier to follow your logic if you didn't disavow it every other page.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Your argument: That we should bar all Muslims from the United States.

Temporarily banned from immigrating to the United States, Until we reform our processes to keep people safe, Muslims included.

So, not "all muslims" like you said I meant. So, first lie admitted, good.

The justification: That there are some Muslims who are terrorists.

An immense number of them, some of which have already committed crimes against innocents, proclaim they will continue to do so, and have been proven to be already in the US as it is.

You are treating all members of one group in a specific way, based on the actions of a subset of that group

Well damn, see, you are back to lying again.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It'd be easier to follow your logic if you didn't disavow it every other page.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Rayne]

and even it wasn't, so what? Its temporary, until a better system can be created. Until then, enjoy Nepal. There is no law of earth that says we have to keep our borders open to anyone, for anything.

I gather you're not handy on the definitions of what words mean from this conversation, but typically "lying" does not mean "using the words someone said to illustrate the inconsistency of their position".

 

[Rayne]

What the fuck are you talking about?

That your logic changes from page to page, and when something you said becomes inconvenient for where you've currently drifted to, you suddenly didn't say it.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

And how does what your saying here do so? How is saying I intend to treat all muslims a certain way because of the actions of ISIS not lying?

 

[Rayne]

And how does what your saying here do so? How is saying I intend to treat all muslims a certain way because of the actions of ISIS not lying?

........because you've stated that you're fine with treating all Muslims a certain way (barring their immigration) because of the actions of ISIS.

Let's ignore what Donald Trump says, you don't vote so that doesn't matter here. You've stated that you're fine with blocking a Nepalese Muslim from entering the United States on the basis of the actions of ISIS. Please, please, please explain how that isn't treating all Muslims in a certain fashion based on the actions of a specific set of Muslims. This is the core part of your missing logic here, why people are looking at you and going "huh?" when you're claiming not to be targeting all Muslims based on the actions of a specific few.

 

[The Butcher]

What does everyone feel about a freeze on all immigration?

 

[Rayne]

Not a fan. Stealing the best and brightest from the rest of the world is what, er, made this country great.

 

[The Butcher]

Can Trump backers credit for him for daring to "split the baby" without coming off as Islamophobes? Not saying he has Solomon's judgement, but he's a negotiator.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

........because you've stated that you're fine with treating all Muslims a certain way (barring their immigration) because of the actions of ISIS

Except for that I didn't(and neither did Trump), because not all Muslims are Immigrants, are they?

Lying again.

Let's ignore what Donald Trump says, you don't vote so that doesn't matter here.

Except for the part were that's the subject of the conversation?

You've stated that you're fine with blocking a Nepalese Muslim from entering the United States on the basis of the actions of ISIS. Please, please, please explain how that isn't treating all Muslims in a certain fashion based on the actions of a specific set of Muslims.

Because as I have stated multiple times in this thread, and Trump also clarified, American Citizens are OK to come and go and do whatever they please, be it Muslim or not. Shit, you EVEN QUOTED A POST OF MINE were I made a distinction of ISIL inspired people coming to this country and murdering Moderate American Muslims.

Its a measure for us to be able to rectify whatever we are fucking up in this immigration and screening process. For the safety of all American citizens, be they Muslim, Christian, Agnostic, Atheist, whatever they may be.

I have no personal beef with Muslims or Islam. This is simply a case of practicality in the face of evidence of something needing to be done. No one is being permanently banned or rounded up.

Its a temporary hold, which will be largely regionally based, until WE can fix OUR shortcomings. Anyone who wants the privilege of immigrating to this country needs to have patience while we work these issues out, so that they, and we, can be safe.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Gun nuts have taught me that it isn't right to punish a whole group of people because of a few bad apples and that if bad apples want to get access to things they are not suppose to have they will find another way to do it (seriously, how do you know if someone is telling the truth about the religion? I guess having them eat pork is a start).

So in summary, Donald Trump is stupid, this petition is stupid, but most importantly the WWE Hall of Fame is stupid.