[Official] John Cena Thread

[Slyfox696]

No.He rose to that occasion by winning Money In the Bank.Cena just happened to be the champion at that moment.

That was in 2005. He wasn't over as a main-eventer in 2005, and couldn't get over as a main-eventer in 2005. That's why they had him cash in his briefcase like that. They had waited so long trying to get him over and it hadn't worked, and they couldn't have him going into Wrestlemania challenging for the title and heatless.

So, they pulled that switch after NYR.

Yes but Edge started their feud.Not cena.

No bearing on the fact that both guys were in the feud. One was a recognized and credible champion, and one was a transitional champion who had struggled to get over as a believable title threat for years.

Just because it was with cena doesn't make it a good match.Both of them being able to put on a good match with each other makes it good.

I could say the same thing for Edge. *shrugs*

Sure Cena helped put him there but Edge would have been there one day regardless of Cena being the man that he feuded with.

I'm not so sure of that. The WWE had been trying like hell for the last several years to get Edge over. It had never really worked. He was popular, but wasn't really believable, if that makes sense. To say that he'd be there regardless isn't exactly a certainty. But, what is a certainty, is that he got there during his feud with Cena. No one can deny that.

I also want to point out how much more respect Umaga gets now after the Royal Rumble match, and how Lashley gets a lot more respect after the GAB match.


The argument that Cena sucks, just really doesn't hold weight anymore. A person can dislike him, his character or his title run, but you can't really say he sucks. There is just so much evidence to the contrary.

 

[hbk&triple h]

That was in 2005. He wasn't over as a main-eventer in 2005, and couldn't get over as a main-eventer in 2005. That's why they had him cash in his briefcase like that. They had waited so long trying to get him over and it hadn't worked, and they couldn't have him going into Wrestlemania challenging for the title and heatless.

So, they pulled that switch after NYR.


I'm not so sure of that. The WWE had been trying like hell for the last several years to get Edge over. It had never really worked. He was popular, but wasn't really believable, if that makes sense. To say that he'd be there regardless isn't exactly a certainty. But, what is a certainty, is that he got there during his feud with Cena. No one can deny that.

I also want to point out how much more respect Umaga gets now after the Royal Rumble match, and how Lashley gets a lot more respect after the GAB match.


The argument that Cena sucks, just really doesn't hold weight anymore. A person can dislike him, his character or his title run, but you can't really say he sucks. There is just so much evidence to the contrary.

Ughh.I didn't believe in him being a title chaser either..in 2005.I knew he would reach their after but not then.

I couldn't have been exactly certain he would but I was pretty sure he'd make it there.He had the talent.He did get there with cena.I agree.

I respected him way before that match.It was a good match but I definetly thought he was great before that.

I haven't seen the Great American Nash match yet.I heard it was ok.

I believe he isn't very good.But I agree you can't just all out say they suck without backing it up.

 

[jus2sik]

you know i dislike cena because of his lack of wrestling skill and so everytime he wrestles or cuts a promo i change the channel for 5 to 10 minutes,but i just saw him wrestle a little on snme and i think hes gotten alot better compared to him last year, you never know he could become a great technical wrestler

 

[Lil Wes]

We were talking about the I Quit match from Judgment Day.

Um...No we weren't you were saying JBL/Cena was a good match etc... I was saying Taker/RKO at WM was 10 times better Cena/JBL went like 9 minutes and was a snoozer.The I quit match wasn't anything special either.

My point was that you excused HHH's match with Batista because it was Batista, and no one gets a good match, so it's acceptable for him not to consistently put on good matches because of that. My point is that I was saying the exact same thing about Khali, and you refused to acknowledge that. You can't have it both ways. Either HHH is inconsistent in 2005 as his 3 matches with Batista were all crap, or we accept the fact that even good wrestlers can't always get a good match out of bad workers.

Good wrestlers and bad workers don't mix. It was noticeable in the HHH feud I'll agree. But Taker pulled a good match out of Batista. I doubt Cena could do so because he isn't on Taker's level when it comes to wrestling. We will more than likely find out soon.

You can find it online many places. That's how I watched it. Cena vs. Khali at One Night Stand was better.

I really don't want to watch it. I'm not in the mood for being bored as I will enough of that tommorow night.

Again, do you not think the fact that it was Benoit played a major part in that? Of course it did.

Yes because Beniot was one of the best wrestlers in WWE. Very good match. Like I said better than anything Cena has done or accomplished at WM or Triple threats,Fatal 4 ways etc...Thats my point.

Yes means it was better while No means it wasn't. This is all IMO.

Savage/Steamboat - 3

No. Seen this one. This one is close.

Hogan/Warrior - 6

No. Seen this one.

Warrior/Savage - 7

No.

Flair/Savage - 8

Haven't seen. But i'll glady check it out if I can find it.

Bret/Owen - 10

Yes.

HBK/Razor - 10

Yes.

Bret/Austin - 13

Yes.

Austin/HBK - 14

NO!

Austin/Rock - 17

Yes.

Rock/Hogan -18

Yes.

There are ten matches which are better than HBK/HHH/Benoit. And of those on the list at least 7 of them cannot be disputed

.

Well I got 5 were better 4 were not. 1 of those I haven't seen.

A good match can get great reaction and great entertainment if no one ever leaves their feet.

HBK/Vinnie Mac did. Thats why people loved it.

That obviously wasn't going to happen in this match, so they pulled out garbage wrestling and relied on big spots, many of which were unrealistic, and the match lacked any semblance of direction

Gimmick matches usually always call for garbage wrestling..

Oooh! A wrestler with 20 years experience has more match of the years than someone who has only been in for 5, as determined by a magazine which is read by mostly by smarks, most of which think Cena sucks for some unknown reason? Well, it looks like you got me there.

I've explained why I think Cena Sucks. You say yourself HBK has dropped the ball from 04 well according PWI those 3 matches were great. And I agree. HBK will make it 4 straight this year with Cena on RAW. HBK does have 20 years of experience ahead of Johnny Boy. We really can't argue over whos greater whos had the greater career. But you go back when HBK had to carry the ball he did it against competition. Put on consistent matches and was the face of WWF. Cena is only one right now and that is the face of WWE. E and F are a hell of alot different also. E equals Shit.

Pro Wrestling Illustrated hasn't been credible for 15 years. You're going to have to try a lot harder than that. Like I said, the 1998 MOTY was Taker vs. Mankind in HIAC. I guess that match was great too, right? We both agreed it wasn't, and that magazine is not at all credible.

No it's not. That match was garbage. But I do agree with the HBK matches being match of the year. HBK/Vince you could argue. But HHH/HBK/Beniot,HBK/Angle...Hell No both are classics i'll always remember..That's 2 since 04 Cena has had 1 and you know with who??HBK

And don't forget that DX is green, and those who wear green generally aren't allowed as many moves, and it was clear that the Spi....nevermind. You are making up rules and conditions, and changing them as we go along.

The whole DX angle was one of the fucking dumbest things being brought back. Seriously there wasn't any need for it...Don't get me started on the DX reunion

What set of rules are we going to play by?

Since WWE hasn't gave me a good ol hardcore brawl in a very long time....I'll say extreme and No im not an ECW Mark. I didn't even know what ECW was when I was a kid watching WWF and really don't care for it.

 

[Slyfox696]

Um...No we weren't you were saying JBL/Cena was a good match etc... I was saying Taker/RKO at WM was 10 times better Cena/JBL went like 9 minutes and was a snoozer.The I quit match wasn't anything special either.

My mistake. I thought we were talking about I Quit. I agree the WM match wasn't very good, which I guess is why I presumed the I Quit. And, the I Quit was better than Taker/Orton, either match.

Good wrestlers and bad workers don't mix. It was noticeable in the HHH feud I'll agree. But Taker pulled a good match out of Batista. I doubt Cena could do so because he isn't on Taker's level when it comes to wrestling. We will more than likely find out soon.

I agree that good and bad don't mix.

Which is why you can't fault Cena for being "inconsistent" as you said over the summer considering his two matches smack down in the summer was with an awful wrestler in Khali. That's my point.

I really don't want to watch it. I'm not in the mood for being bored as I will enough of that tommorow night.

It's a solid match, and not that long. It's also Khali's best match...for what that's worth.

Yes because Beniot was one of the best wrestlers in WWE. Very good match. Like I said better than anything Cena has done or accomplished at WM or Triple threats,Fatal 4 ways etc...Thats my point.

I don't think you are understanding why I am trying to say.

Let's pretend the match went down the EXACT same way. Let's say it was Carlito in Benoit's spot, but he did everything the exact same way, and exact same time as Benoit. Basically, take everything Benoit, and just say it was Carlito. The match would not have been perceived as good with Carlito winning. Why? Because the match was secondary to what it represented. It represented Benoit's 15 year odyssey through wrestling, finally achieving the top prize. Eddie comes out to celebrate and it is one of the best feel good moments in wrestling. THAT is why the actual match itself gets overrated. The match itself wasn't that great.

No. Seen this one. This one is close.

Hahaha. No, it's really not. Savaga/Steamboat was a picture of perfection. If you wanted to watch the most perfect match ever, you'd watch this one. Everything is clean, it's crisp, it flows wonderfully. It has great spots and great transitions between the major spots.

No. Seen this one.

Hogan/Warrior was better than WM 20.

No.

Warrior/Savage is one of the 3 best matches in Wrestlemania history. It's easily better than Benoit/HHH/HBK.

Haven't seen. But i'll glady check it out if I can find it.

It's really a forgotten classic. For some reason Savage/Flair went in the middle of the show so Hogan/Sid could main-event. Because of that, so many people forget about it. But, it really is a spectacular match, and a credit to Savage's ability to make inferior workers look good.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Bret/Owen, HBK/Razor, Bret/Austin. (so I know what we're talking about later )

NO!

I disagree, but can understand an argument.

Yes.

Yes.

Rock/Austin, Hogan/Rock

Well I got 5 were better 4 were not. 1 of those I haven't seen.

I find it curious that the matches you disagreed with all happened before 1993, and all the ones you did agree with happened after (excluding 1). When did you happen to start watching wrestling, out of curiousity?

HBK/Vinnie Mac did. Thats why people loved it.

No, HBK/Vince got a good reaction because of garbage spots and relied on big spots for heat throughout the match. Compare that to HHH/HBK/Benoit, which really had very little of that in the match.

Gimmick matches usually always call for garbage wrestling..

Not really. Good gimmick matches can still have the same elements of what makes other matches great. MITB was a great match because there was that storytelling going on. You watched Tully/Magnum yesterday, and it was bloody and brutal and violent, but it all had a purpose and all contributed to the match with a logical flow.

HBK/McMahon was just about pulling out random spots that were used to pop the crowd.

We really can't argue over whos greater whos had the greater career.

No, we cannot argue who's had the greater career. But, HBK has 12 more years on Cena right now. When Cena is 42, then maybe the comparison will be more fair.

But you go back when HBK had to carry the ball he did it against competition.

And, he failed miserably. His reign was the worst drawing reign in WWF history. Not to mention, he was overwhelmingly booed, which, according to many Cena haters, means that he sucks. I disagree with that statement, just applying it to HBK's pitiful run.

Put on consistent matches and was the face of WWF.

HBK had his share of bad matches in '96 as well. Vader at Summerslam particularly comes to mind. And, Cena is much more the face of the WWE than HBK was at any point of his career. Cena is the top PR guy in the company. He goes on more shows, and defends the WWE more than Vince McMahon himself.

Cena is only one right now and that is the face of WWE. E and F are a hell of alot different also. E equals Shit.

The WWE now is much better than the WWF of 1996. Believe me. WWF in 1996 was completely awful. You had HBK and you had Bret. And, you really didn't even have Bret. There were still plenty of high quality wrestlers in the WWF, just none of them were interesting in the least at that time. WCW kicked the WWF's ass, and with good reason in 1996.

The WWE now is far superior to the WWF in 1996.

I've explained why I think Cena Sucks. You say yourself HBK has dropped the ball from 04 well according PWI those 3 matches were great.

Well, if we go by PWI, then Cena was the Wrestler of the Year in 2006, and finished #2 in Wrestler of the Year in 2005.

So, if we're going to go by PWI, then I just proved John Cena is good.

 

[hbk&triple h]

I agree that good and bad don't mix.

Which is why you can't fault Cena for being "inconsistent" as you said over the summer considering his two matches smack down in the summer was with an awful wrestler in Khali. That's my point.

It's a solid match, and not that long. It's also Khali's best match...for what that's worth.

I don't think you are understanding why I am trying to say.

Let's pretend the match went down the EXACT same way. Let's say it was Carlito in Benoit's spot, but he did everything the exact same way, and exact same time as Benoit. Basically, take everything Benoit, and just say it was Carlito. The match would not have been perceived as good with Carlito winning. Why? Because the match was secondary to what it represented. It represented Benoit's 15 year odyssey through wrestling, finally achieving the top prize. Eddie comes out to celebrate and it is one of the best feel good moments in wrestling. THAT is why the actual match itself gets overrated. The match itself wasn't that great.

Hahaha. No, it's really not. Savaga/Steamboat was a picture of perfection. If you wanted to watch the most perfect match ever, you'd watch this one. Everything is clean, it's crisp, it flows wonderfully. It has great spots and great transitions between the major spots.

Hogan/Warrior was better than WM 20.

Warrior/Savage is one of the 3 best matches in Wrestlemania history. It's easily better than Benoit/HHH/HBK.

It's really a forgotten classic. For some reason Savage/Flair went in the middle of the show so Hogan/Sid could main-event. Because of that, so many people forget about it. But, it really is a spectacular match, and a credit to Savage's ability to make inferior workers look good.


No, HBK/Vince got a good reaction because of garbage spots and relied on big spots for heat throughout the match. Compare that to HHH/HBK/Benoit, which really had very little of that in the match.


No, we cannot argue who's had the greater career. But, HBK has 12 more years on Cena right now. When Cena is 42, then maybe the comparison will be more fair.

And, he failed miserably. His reign was the worst drawing reign in WWF history. Not to mention, he was overwhelmingly booed, which, according to many Cena haters, means that he sucks. I disagree with that statement, just applying it to HBK's pitiful run.


The WWE now is much better than the WWF of 1996. Believe me. WWF in 1996 was completely awful. You had HBK and you had Bret. And, you really didn't even have Bret. There were still plenty of high quality wrestlers in the WWF, just none of them were interesting in the least at that time. WCW kicked the WWF's ass, and with good reason in 1996.

John Cena's match with Shawn at Wrestlemania is bad.So in your opinion (Cena being the good worker) Shawn would have to be the bad.Which is not true.Sometimes Cena is very inconsistant.

Thats worth less than a damn penny.No one will remember Khali for anything.Certainly not this match either.

Its true that a lot of the match is just based off of the fact that Benoit did win.It was a very good match though.No denying that.

Hogan/Warrior is a classic.Not wrestling wise but by the match itself, who won, and who was facing off.The match consisted of rest holds the whole god damn time.The ending was something I'll never forget.Definetly a classic but not wrestling wise.

Savage somehow pulled off the unthinkable and carried Warrior to a damn classic match.How?Don't know.Savage is a wrestling god though.

Savage and Flair have one of the damn greatest matches in Wrestlemania history.Wrestlemania 8 was a double main event but this one should have been it.Everything was great about it.

Savage/Steamboat was a classic and I would say top 5 maybe even top 3 Wrestlemania matches.

Yes the match got heat out of the high spots but it was never meant to be a wrestling classic.It was just meant to be a brawl.Every McMahon street fight is that way.

I just can't see cena wrestling till age 42.Why?I don't know I just don't see it happening.

HBK just happened to become champion in the worst year in wrestling history.I agree.But i give him props to still putting on some good matches and for doing the best he could.

For me the WWF in 1996 is still better than what we have now.At least they had some great matches.Some I'll remember.We have had about one good match to remember this year and other than that this year has been overshadowed by injuries and deaths.

 

[Lil Wes]

My mistake. I thought we were talking about I Quit. I agree the WM match wasn't very good, which I guess is why I presumed the I Quit. And, the I Quit was better than Taker/Orton, either match.

I don' think it's better but it is close to the HITC of Taker/Orton.

I agree that good and bad don't mix.

Which is why you can't fault Cena for being "inconsistent" as you said over the summer considering his two matches smack down in the summer was with an awful wrestler in Khali. That's my point.

It's not just in the summer. I'm talking about going back to NYR the new year.


.Lets go back to an earlier quote of mine as I don't want to re type.

He has had good matches but not consistenly.

Umaga at NYR- I didn't see but really did they have to put Cena even more over by pinning and undefeated Umaga. It could have pushed someone else to the top.

Umaga at Royal Rumble- Good solid gimmick match.

No Way Out vs Boretista and Taker - I didn't watch as that was a shitty looking PPV. So I can't comment. But Cena pinning Taker is ridiculous.

WM 23- Overated but OK. HBK couldn't make Cena look good in that match. He no selled and that is a big no no.

Backlash- Not 1 on 1. So it covered up his flaws.Not a good match though anyway.

He also was rarely seen in this match.

Judgement Day- God Awful. Do I really have to say why?

ONS- See Above. Also another gimmick match that covers up his flaws.

Vengeance-He rarely did shit in this match. 10 minutes with 4 great superstars. Also another terrible match.

GAB- Best since RAW in Milan. He carried Lashley to what was a solid match.

RAW in Milan(whenever it was)- Fantastic,better than WM 23. MOTY is a possibility

Let's pretend the match went down the EXACT same way. Let's say it was Carlito in Benoit's spot, but he did everything the exact same way, and exact same time as Benoit. Basically, take everything Benoit, and just say it was Carlito. The match would not have been perceived as good with Carlito winning. Why? Because the match was secondary to what it represented. It represented Benoit's 15 year odyssey through wrestling, finally achieving the top prize. Eddie comes out to celebrate and it is one of the best feel good moments in wrestling. THAT is why the actual match itself gets overrated. The match itself wasn't that great.

Put Cena in there and it wouldn't have been any better..

Beniot winning the title was a great moment in wrestling. Beniot won it in a hell of a match that had everyone on the edge of thier seat. It told a story and had a great ending. The match wasn't overrated it was excellent the best Triple threat ever at WM (since theres only been like 3) but it's easily in the top 15 and better than JohnnyBoy and Big Show earlier in the night.

Hahaha. No, it's really not. Savaga/Steamboat was a picture of perfection. If you wanted to watch the most perfect match ever, you'd watch this one. Everything is clean, it's crisp, it flows wonderfully. It has great spots and great transitions between the major spots.

I have seen it. It is a damn good classic match but I had more of a feel to the Triple Threat than I did that one.

Hogan/Warrior was better than WM 20.

Not wrestling wise...

Warrior/Savage is one of the 3 best matches in Wrestlemania history. It's easily better than Benoit/HHH/HBK.

I enjoyed the Triple Threat better.

It's really a forgotten classic. For some reason Savage/Flair went in the middle of the show so Hogan/Sid could main-event. Because of that, so many people forget about it. But, it really is a spectacular match, and a credit to Savage's ability to make inferior workers look good.

If only I had that damn anthology. I'm sure it is a very good match and probaly better I'll keep looking though.

I disagree, but can understand an argument.

I liked the wrestling in the Triple Threat more than in this one. This is hyped so much basically because of HBK's back and The Austin Era beginning. The match itself wasn't all that great IMO.

Rock/Austin, Hogan/Rock

2 of my all time favorites.

I find it curious that the matches you disagreed with all happened before 1993, and all the ones you did agree with happened after (excluding 1). When did you happen to start watching wrestling, out of curiousity?

Around 97 is when I got into WWF. 96 was only WCW. I just watch alot of stuff from around WWF 94-96 on dvds or internet. So yeah that was when i was about 4 going on 5 so I missed out on the old school and when I started watching in the attitude era. Matches,promos TV all changed....

I know you will rip me to shreds thinking attitude era marks all despise Cena and we rely to much on the past.

No, HBK/Vince got a good reaction because of garbage spots and relied on big spots for heat throughout the match. Compare that to HHH/HBK/Benoit, which really had very little of that in the match.

HHH/HBK/Beniot was easily better but HBK/Vince was an alright gimmicked match. Since it is Vince I do not expect him to be a solid Kurt Angle like preformer.

Not really. Good gimmick matches can still have the same elements of what makes other matches great. MITB was a great match because there was that storytelling going on. You watched Tully/Magnum yesterday, and it was bloody and brutal and violent, but it all had a purpose and all contributed to the match with a logical flow.

Tully/Magnum was damn good,brutal and seemed like they really wanted to tear the other apart. But i'm talking about you look at Hardcore matches Hell look at ECW they relied on spots,spots and more spots and the wrestling was terrible. Some gimmick matches can be very good with alot of fine wrestling. It's rare in HITC,Hardcore etc... but they are all fun and entertaining to watch. The Ladder match is the best ever IMO.

No, we cannot argue who's had the greater career. But, HBK has 12 more years on Cena right now. When Cena is 42, then maybe the comparison will be more fair.

Agreed. Don't worry though at this rate now. We will still be having this argument

The WWE now is much better than the WWF of 1996. Believe me. WWF in 1996 was completely awful. You had HBK and you had Bret. And, you really didn't even have Bret. There were still plenty of high quality wrestlers in the WWF, just none of them were interesting in the least at that time. WCW kicked the WWF's ass, and with good reason in 1996.

When I watch matches from 96 I do not know the build up,promos etc.. because I either don't remember them or was watching WCW like alot of people at the time. This WWE product today though is by far the most god awful I've ever seen. It's a soap opera. Good wrestling is rarely seen. The creative,booking,PPV's,Promos,Tag Team,Women's division,SD! is all shit. WWE is at a really big low. Hell you can compare it to WCW 2000 its that bad. If there was any competition right now they would finally get their head out of each others asses and actually try putting on a good PPV,RAW,SD! etc.. But TNA IMO is weak. I doubt it will ever amount to anything I cannot sit through a whole show without going to sleep from the fake acting.

The WWE now is far superior to the WWF in 1996.

96 must have really sucked ass then but from what ive seen from PPV'S and matches it was better.

Well, if we go by PWI, then Cena was the Wrestler of the Year in 2006, and finished #2 in Wrestler of the Year in 2005.

Um..Sly...Batista was Wrestler of The Year also and after me saying that lets just not bring up PWI anymore. I do agree with most of the MOTY's though from anytime.

So, if we're going to go by PWI, then I just proved John Cena is good.

Well if we're going by PWI. John Cena hasn't had a MOTY worthy match or ever runner up which tells me he isn't the greatest worker you make him out to be. This year though i'm positive as of right now him and HBK win it. I wouldn't doubt if he is somewhere on the Most Overrated also but that's just a guess.

 

[Slyfox696]

Son of a....

I had a big long reply typed out, and I accidentally closed before I sent it.

Here's what I said...in short...

John Cena's match with Shawn at Wrestlemania is bad.So in your opinion (Cena being the good worker) Shawn would have to be the bad.Which is not true.Sometimes Cena is very inconsistant.
Yes the match got heat out of the high spots but it was never meant to be a wrestling classic.It was just meant to be a brawl.Every McMahon street fight is that way.

I just can't see cena wrestling till age 42.Why?I don't know I just don't see it happening.

HBK just happened to become champion in the worst year in wrestling history.I agree.But i give him props to still putting on some good matches and for doing the best he could.

For me the WWF in 1996 is still better than what we have now.At least they had some great matches.Some I'll remember.We have had about one good match to remember this year and other than that this year has been overshadowed by injuries and deaths.

A bad match doesn't mean that one of the wrestlers has to be bad. See Vader vs. HBK at Summerslam '96.

Even though it did what it planned to, that doesn't make Vince/HBK a great performance.

What good matches happened in 1996? Besides Ironman and Mind Games.

Put Cena in there and it wouldn't have been any better..

If only I had that damn anthology. I'm sure it is a very good match and probaly better I'll keep looking though.

When I watch matches from 96 I do not know the build up,promos etc.. because I either don't remember them or was watching WCW like alot of people at the time. This WWE product today though is by far the most god awful I've ever seen. It's a soap opera. Good wrestling is rarely seen. The creative,booking,PPV's,Promos,Tag Team,Women's division,SD! is all shit. WWE is at a really big low. Hell you can compare it to WCW 2000 its that bad. If there was any competition right now they would finally get their head out of each others asses and actually try putting on a good PPV,RAW,SD! etc.. But TNA IMO is weak. I doubt it will ever amount to anything I cannot sit through a whole show without going to sleep from the fake acting.

96 must have really sucked ass then but from what ive seen from PPV'S and matches it was better.

Um..Sly...Batista was Wrestler of The Year also and after me saying that lets just not bring up PWI anymore. I do agree with most of the MOTY's though from anytime.

Never said Cena in the Triple Threat would make it better.

I have both Wrestlemania and Royal Rumble Anthology and they are worth every dime.

I assure you '96 blew harder than a Mexican hooker.

I've said all along that PWI is crap.

 

[Skillz]

What good matches happened in 1996? Besides Ironman and Mind Games.

Bret/Austin at Survivor Series. And maybe HBK/Diesel from Good Friends, Better Enemies (however IMO Bret/Diesel at Survivor Series 1995 is much better).

I've said all along that PWI is crap.

Yep. If HBK/McMahon wins MOTY then it must be crap.

 

[Skillz]

I just watched the hour-long Cena/HBK match again from Raw (I taped it). Everyone has have been referring to this match as the one in Milan. However, as I started watching it, I realised it was in London! Not Milan as everyone has been saying! There were two large UK flags next to the titantron, and JR clearly says they are in Earls Court, London, England.

Good match, btw.

 

[mabuza]

I think people have kinda lost the plot in evaluating Cena.2yrs ago it was a valid argument that Cena wasnt pulling his weight in the ring.However now its just a issue of fans resenting him for being champ for sooo long.He's not the 1st World Champ.nor will he be the last,who gets this kind of reaction after having been put over for a long period of time or too soon(eg. Hogan,Rock,Lesnar).Even Orton was deemed as a failure in 2004 by the creative team coz fans werent that into him.He had been booked to hold the WHC till WM21,but they pulled the plug on him.Now while that may have spared the fans,it may have cost the WWE millions in merchandising& box office because of the megastar Randy would have been if they stuck with him.As for John,his title push at WM21 wasnt to early,it was in fact too late.The original WMXX mainevent card was meant to be booked as HHH vs. Orton(WHC) & Kurt Angle vs. John Cena(WWE)( "WHERE IT ALL BEGINS AGAIN" was meant to imply the begining of a new era in the WWE).They scrapped them as the y felt that Orton needed more time to develop his persona& subsequent face turn against HHH.All the technical (Inring& promo)aspects where in place for John to headline WMXX.He actually became watered down during his 2004 U.S Title reign.

 

[SSJPhenom]

No one has lost the plot in evaluating Cena! My point is, and has been, that while he can, "entertain and tell the story," he can perform in the ring. I said he wasn't on the level of Taker, HBK, or HHH! Hell, I'll throw King Booker in that list as well. All of these wrestlers can perform and work a good match and tell the story at the same time! Until Cena finds the bridge between the two, he will never be on that level. I mean then, now, and ever. If Cena does good physical work than his story has to be told by his oppenent! (I.E. HBK/Cena) If he tells the story of the match then his physical ability is lost. (Cena/Khali and most of his matches with Umaga) Cena is a good entertainer not a good sports entertainer and he has awhile before he is. The arguement that Cena sucks is a very valid arguements with many ideas or facts to prove it, just like any other arguement and I will continue to stress the point until Cena proves otherwise!

In HBK/Cena on Raw. Cena was impecable! His movement was spot on and he really worked hard in the match! HBK, who is always spot on, showed the same physical ability, but he sold the match so much better. That is why, I think, the match will credited to HBK, especailly as time passes! That is the only reason why one might say Cena was carried through the match, which at about the 30 min. mark, he started to look like he didn't what the hell was going on. But I think that was because he had never been in a match that long before.

 

[Slyfox696]

If Cena does good physical work than his story has to be told by his oppenent! (I.E. HBK/Cena) If he tells the story of the match then his physical ability is lost. (Cena/Khali and most of his matches with Umaga)

That doesn't even make sense.

Good matches come from using good wrestling strategies. They don't come from moves or whatever else you are saying. And, you REALLY need to go back and watch HBK/Cena from London if you really think HBK was driving the story behind that match.

Cena is a good entertainer not a good sports entertainer and he has awhile before he is.

Millions of fans all over the world beg to differ.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I apologize for the horable posts earlier. That was my little brother, he's 10, and suprisingly enough, he doesn't like Cena either!

He did explain to me what he meant about the entertainer/sports entertainer thing. I have said it before he can entertain, but he isn't a good sports enterntainer meaning he can't couple with the wrestling that he needs.

Sly! You are completely wrong on this issue. One or two big moves can completely make a match memorable or even historical! Superfly Snuka is remembered mainly for one thing and one moment. The same as the match that it happened in. The Taker/Foley HITC is remembered for big moment. Plenty more matches are rememered for one or two big moments. If Cena was a better in ring performer he would be more popular than he is.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly! You are completely wrong on this issue. One or two big moves can completely make a match memorable or even historical! Superfly Snuka is remembered mainly for one thing and one moment. The same as the match that it happened in. The Taker/Foley HITC is remembered for big moment. Plenty more matches are rememered for one or two big moments. If Cena was a better in ring performer he would be more popular than he is.

Memorable matches are not the same thing as good matches. Foley/Taker in HIAC is memorable but not good at all. Conversely, what big spot is there in either Bret vs. Owen match? How about Bret vs. Austin? Was there a big memorable spot in Savage/Warrior? Do we remember Savage/Steamboat because of one moment?

Good matches don't have to rely on one or two big spots to be memorable. Now, if a good match has a big spot, then so be it. But, it is not necessary to a good match.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I never said that a good match needed a memorable spot. I said that a memorable spot can make a match memorable and even great. Those matches that you mentioned were outstanding and no memorable moments come to mind. You are right. In those cases! Save for Bret vs. Austin. The image of him in the Sharp Shooter with the perverbiale crimson mask will be remembered through time as the moment that made Austin a superstar! It was even on T-shirts for crying out loud!

 

[Slyfox696]

I never said that a good match needed a memorable spot. I said that a memorable spot can make a match memorable and even great. Those matches that you mentioned were outstanding and no memorable moments come to mind. You are right. In those cases! Save for Bret vs. Austin. The image of him in the Sharp Shooter with the perverbiale crimson mask will be remembered through time as the moment that made Austin a superstar! It was even on T-shirts for crying out loud!

Yes, but that wasn't a memorable spot because it was planned to be, it was just one of those instances of where greatness was captured because camera people were in the right place at the right time.

The point I'm trying to make is that just because Cena doesn't do one or two incredible spots that make his average matches memorable, doesn't mean that he is not a good wrestler.

 

[Freedom 35]

The point I'm trying to make is that just because Cena doesn't do one or two incredible spots that make his average matches memorable, doesn't mean that he is not a good wrestler.

see this is why i like to watch john cena in the ring. he doesnt use flash and high spots to make his matches memorable he just goes out there and gets right down to buisness and wrestles a solid match

 

[SSJPhenom]

Slyfox! Good point! The fact, however, is that Cena tries to have memorable moments in his matches. F-Uing Edge from the top of the ladder through the tables. F-Uing Lashley from the top rope. Using the ropes on Umaga to make him tap out. Well that last one is actually a good memorable moment from a good match. The point is, that Cena tries to deliver high impact moves that just don't cut it! The reason that they don't cut it, is because we have seen it before! Look at the great champions in the past. They have all had memorable match moments and memorable promo segments. Cena hasn't even had a good memorable promo segment that isn't out of the ordinary. To be champ for two years, he is past due in these departments. I still say that if he could perform in the ring, he would be, widely, more popular!

 

[Slyfox696]

They have all had memorable match moments and memorable promo segments. Cena hasn't even had a good memorable promo segment that isn't out of the ordinary.

Name me all of the great promos that Bret Hart cut in his WWF run as champion as a face. Please describe all of the planned out memorable moments in matches he had as champion as a face.

 

[Freedom 35]

Cena tries to have memorable moments in his matches. F-Uing Edge from the top of the ladder through the tables. F-Uing Lashley from the top rope. Using the ropes on Umaga to make him tap out.

memorable moments are overrated mick foley tried to make a career out of memorable moments but wat is he now a washed up self promoting has been who still cant wrestle. Cena doesnt need memorable moments to define his career ric flair has never had a memorable moment in a match in his career and look where he ended up the best wrestler* ever so i think cena will be ok.

*from the wrestling point not the drawing/pro wrestling just plain old wrestling skill

 

[SSJPhenom]

Maybe not in Bret's initial title run as a face! But when he was turning heel around his Steve Austin fued he cut some great promos. Pushing Mcmahon down. Tearing things up. My favorite Hart quote comes from this point in time! "There seems to be a new moto in the World Wrestling Federation, you scratch my back and I'll stab yours!" I loved Hart as a heel. He was outstanding. Was Cena outstanding as a heel? Hell no! And about Flair. In the NWA, every Flair interveiw was memorable. I can quote about ten of them. So don't say that he hasn't had memorable moments. That has to be the dumbest thing that I have ever heard!

 

[Lil Wes]

Maybe not in Bret's initial title run as a face! But when he was turning heel around his Steve Austin fued he cut some great promos. Pushing Mcmahon down. Tearing things up. My favorite Hart quote comes from this point in time! "There seems to be a new moto in the World Wrestling Federation, you scratch my back and I'll stab yours!" I loved Hart as a heel. He was outstanding. Was Cena outstanding as a heel? Hell no! And about Flair. In the NWA, every Flair interveiw was memorable. I can quote about ten of them. So don't say that he hasn't had memorable moments. That has to be the dumbest thing that I have ever heard!

I think in about 10 years we are gonna see a Hogan type shocker after they build him up as Hogan Jr. and the little kiddies from these days grow up. Cena turns heel stabs someone in the back and joins Shane and John Morrison to form some evil alliance or something. He wasn't that great of a heel but when your stuck with a rapper gimmick your gonna be shit. During his feud with Taker though He wasn't too bad.

I agree a 100% though. Cena hasn't and doesn't deliever memorable promos. It's something Hogan could even do as well as Flair,Rock,Austin etc.. Cena just says the same things over and over with the same routine. I can think of tons of great Rock,Austin,Flair and Hogan promos. Cena doesn't have them. When he's on the mic he doesn't grab my attention like those guys did. Instead him makes me sick with the same repeated stuff. Sly can say Austin did the same thing..."Came down talked shit,stunned people and drank beer" So what? His backstage segments and In-ring promos were always entertaining Cena's aren't.

"I never back down""The champ is here"You want some come get some" all are lame IMO It's like Hulk all over again. When he loses the belt in about 10 years he won't have anymore catch phrases. Rep for whoever can name me one classic Cena promo.

I don't see this so called "talent" Cena supposely has on the mic. I can name a handful of active wrestlers that are more consistent at delievering entertaining and attention grabbing promos.

 

[Slyfox696]

Maybe not in Bret's initial title run as a face! But when he was turning heel around his Steve Austin fued he cut some great promos. Pushing Mcmahon down. Tearing things up. My favorite Hart quote comes from this point in time! "There seems to be a new moto in the World Wrestling Federation, you scratch my back and I'll stab yours!" I loved Hart as a heel. He was outstanding.

Agreed. Hart had a hell of a heel run (even though I still cheered for him). But, we're not comparing face Cena to heel Hart. We're comparing face Hart to face Cena, and you know as well as I do, Hart is much more known for his face run than his heel run.

Was Cena outstanding as a heel? Hell no!

Umm...what?

And about Flair. In the NWA, every Flair interveiw was memorable. I can quote about ten of them. So don't say that he hasn't had memorable moments. That has to be the dumbest thing that I have ever heard!

Who said anything about Flair's interviews?

Rep for whoever can name me one classic Cena promo.

How about Cena's battleraps? How about Cena and Christian at Royal Rumble 2005, when Christian tries to outrap Cena? Which, also provided us with the ever incredible "No" from Tomko.

I don't see this so called "talent" Cena supposely has on the mic. I can name a handful of active wrestlers that are more consistent at delievering entertaining and attention grabbing promos.

Yes, I think you named one of them as Kennedy.

 

[Lil Wes]

How about Cena's battleraps? How about Cena and Christian at Royal Rumble 2005, when Christian tries to outrap Cena? Which, also provided us with the ever incredible "No" from Tomko.

Not really. I thought they usually weren't all that great. None of them are any I'll remember 5 years from now. I couldn't even remember the Christian one. I'll look for the vid but I always thought his raps were actually pretty shitty. His promos as a rapper were 10x better than they are now though. He actually had me paying attention to my TV.

Rep for who can name me a classic Cena promo since he turned into this "Marine superhero" character.

Yes, I think you named one of them as Kennedy.

Damn right,I am extremely disapointed in Kennedy though. I brag on him while in my arguement with you and then him and Carlito drop the ball on RAW Monday. I'm still very high on him though he grabs my attention easily while on the mic. He also can turn crowds who give him BIG pops to booing him in the blink of an eye. He has that "it" factor people talk about all the time. After Monday though the guys got alot of improving to do in the ring. Carlito isn't the greatest of opponents to be facing though. We'll see how he does if he gets this upcoming IC title run.