[Official] John Cena Thread

[Lil Wes]

Cena using the ropes is certainly unique (and not predictable at all ) but that's not why the match is so good. There's a lot more that goes into that match than just the ending.

I agree. Not predictable at all. I'm gonna have another look at that match before I say Cena's wrestling ability was terrible in it though.

Well, no, but Bret and Austin wrestled each other numerous times. HBK and Hart went at it numerous times. I can't count the number of match Rock and HHH had.

Just because one match between two guys wasn't great, doesn't mean that all of them can't be great. Bret/Austin has submission match, HBK/Hart has the iron man, and Rock/HHH has the ladder match.

I'm not saying both matches were terrible. The LMS was a very good match and A big step up from NYR. But at NYR one on one with no gimmicks it wasn't a good match at all IMO.

I completely agree. The HIAC with Taker/Mankind is completely awful. But, not all gimmick matches are good, and not all good wrestlers are successful at gimmick matches. You can't say that Cena vs. Umaga wasn't good because it was a gimmick match, unless you're willing to disqualify Rock/HHH Ironman and ladder, Bret vs. Austin submission, HBK vs. Razor ladder, HBK vs. Taker HIAC, Bret vs. Owen at Summerslam etc.

No i'm not willing to disqualify any. They were all great(the ones I've seen and remember). I would say take each one of those wrestlers from that match put them in a one on one and compare them to Cena's one on one with Umaga to see which was any better. But I really don't know or have seen much of the old school matches. If you look at the LMS matches though. Hell even Taker and Boretista had a better one on one than LMS. Cena/Umanga didn't.

I would probably give it a ***3/4 star match. It's pushing a 4 star. Meltzer was the one who gave it 4 stars, and unlike you and me, many people here take Meltzer's word as gospel.

It was somewhere in that area. One of the better one on one Cena matches in quite some time (ex HBK feud)

And, I agree with you on Lashley's ability, I've been arguing that for a long time. But, would you not agree it's the best match Lashley has ever been in? And, it wasn't a gimmick match at all.

You know I don't agree with you often when you say Cena brought this guy up or so and so. But he did bring Lashley up for his best match and if Lashley does go on to have alot of success I'll say the Cena feud really was what got it started.

 

[SSJPhenom]

When I spoke about Cena vs. HBK, I never meant that HBK carried Cena. I don't think that at all! I just think that HBK did a much better job of selling the match to the fans than Cena did. That is why I give him the credit for it being so good!

I never said that Cena hasn't had a good match! I mentioned that he hasn't had a great performance. His match with Umaga was a good match, but it wasn't his best. Cena vs. HBK was by far Cena's premiere match, but you know what I think of that!

Sly! You said that the three wrestlers that I mentioned earlier have had about one or two good matches in the past 4 years. We must be watching two seperate WWE programs every week! I can name plenty for each! Taker vs. Orton WM21, Taker vs. Orton Hell in a Cell, Taker vs. Angle No Way Out 06, and more recently, Taker vs. Batista Cage match on SD! Even the finish to this year's Royal Rumble was outstanding. HBK vs. HHH Last Man Standing, WM 20 main event, HBK vs. Chris Benoit Raw, HBK vs. Hogan, HBK vs. Angle 1 and 2, HBK vs. Mcmahon WM 22, and recently HBK vs. Cena! HHH vs. Ric Flair Cage match, HHH vs. Ric Flair Last Man Standing Match, HHH vs. Cena WM 22, HHH vs. Edge vs. Cena Backlash 06! I could go on and on.

The point is that Cena has had some good matches, but his consistency of good matches can't even touch people like Taker, HBK, or HHH! Furthermore, this has been Cena's best year of his entire career as far as match caliber goes. Cena has a long time to go, if ever, until he is as good as the likes of Taker, HBK, or HHH!

 

[Slyfox696]

No i'm not willing to disqualify any. They were all great(the ones I've seen and remember). I would say take each one of those wrestlers from that match put them in a one on one and compare them to Cena's one on one with Umaga to see which was any better. But I really don't know or have seen much of the old school matches. If you look at the LMS matches though. Hell even Taker and Boretista had a better one on one than LMS. Cena/Umanga didn't.

That's a little unfair though. You could put Bret vs. Savage 15 times, and get 15 different matches and 15 different match qualities. You can't say that Cena and Umaga CAN'T have a good non-gimmick match. They haven't, but they have had a good match.

I haven't seen the Taker/Tista LMS, but the Wrestlemania match was completely overrated. I think it gets more praise because it wasn't awful than because it was good.

And, if you take HBK out of those matches and compare him with a 1-on-1 match with Cena, I bet you get a good match .


As far as Old School Wrestling goes, if you want to get into some older stuff, check out Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA at Starrcade (1985 I believe). It was an I Quit match in a steel cage, and it is amazing. You can find it on www.dailymotion.com. It really is a great match.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I didn't like the Undertaker vs. Batista at WM 23 myself and I am some what of an Undertaker buff! Their match on SD. was great though!

Don't see why Cena and Umaga couldn't have a good non gimmick match. Umaga, for his size, is great in the ring and Cena, who I think is aweful, is getting better. There is only one reason that they couldn't have good non gimmick match at this time, the Title! It would have to be a legitimate fued with nothing on the line for it to be good.

 

[Slyfox696]

I never said that Cena hasn't had a good match! I mentioned that he hasn't had a great performance.

His performance at One Night Stand 2 was nothing short of Hogan-esque. The way he manipulated that crowd, the way he had them eating out of the palm of his hand, how he could get them to "ooh and ahh" him one moment and booing him relentlessly the next was nothing short of amazing. Hulk Hogan himself is the only man who could have done better.

Sly! You said that the three wrestlers that I mentioned earlier have had about one or two good matches in the past 4 years. We must be watching two seperate WWE programs every week! I can name plenty for each! Taker vs. Orton WM21,

Decent match but not a "great performance" like you said.

Taker vs. Orton Hell in a Cell

Not as good as their WM match.

Taker vs. Angle No Way Out 06

This is one I have not seen. I've heard good things about it, but have never heard it revered as some matches have been. I'd have to watch.

Taker vs. Batista Cage match on SD

Hardly a great performance by either man.

WM 20 main event

An overrated smark favorite because Benoit wins the title. Put Batista in Benoit's place, let the match play out exactly the same way with same execution and everything and it's a 3 *** match. But, because it was Chris Benoit winning the title, it gets overrated.

HBK vs. Chris Benoit Raw

How can a match no one remembers be a great performance?

HBK vs. Hogan

Not even close.

HBK vs. Angle 1 and 2

I said MAYBE to Angle 1, but nothing else after.

HBK vs. Mcmahon WM 22

You're kidding right?

and recently HBK vs. Cena!

Includes Cena. Also, notice how from 2005 until present you only have one good HBK match? HBK vs. Angle at WM? And, then, he has two very good matches with Cena? Think about it.

HHH vs. Ric Flair Cage match, HHH vs. Ric Flair Last Man Standing Match,

Big Show vs. Ric Flair on ECW was a better match than either of these.

HHH vs. Cena WM 22, HHH vs. Edge vs. Cena Backlash 06!

Both of these contain Cena.

I could go on and on.

Feel free.

The point is that Cena has had some good matches, but his consistency of good matches can't even touch people like Taker, HBK, or HHH!

Since 2005, Cena's consistency with good matches surpasses Taker, HBK and HHH. And, he's only 30 years old. Wait until he's 34 or 35, and has several years of experience under his belt.

Furthermore, this has been Cena's best year of his entire career as far as match caliber goes.

I don't know. From about Wrestlemania to Unforgiven of last year, he had a hell of a stretch. HHH, RVD, Edge three times. He was pretty damn good. Hell, he even made Sabu watchable (and that's hard to do in a WWE environment).

Cena has a long time to go, if ever, until he is as good as the likes of Taker, HBK, or HHH!

Agreed. If we're comparing the cumulative career of each wrestler. If we're comparing the 42 Taker or HBK, or the 38 year old HHH, I'd take Cena's work, in terms of versatility, consistency, and enjoyment.

Think about this. Since HHH's match at Wrestlemania with Cena, how many good matches has he had? And, before his match at Wrestlemania, how many had he had going back to WM 20?? Before HBK's match with Cena, how many good matches had he had going back to WM 21?

There is no doubt that HHH's work with Cena was the best he had for a couple of years. And the same goes with HBK. That should say something.

 

[hbk&triple h]

His performance at One Night Stand 2 was nothing short of Hogan-esque. The way he manipulated that crowd, the way he had them eating out of the palm of his hand, how he could get them to "ooh and ahh" him one moment and booing him relentlessly the next was nothing short of amazing. Hulk Hogan himself is the only man who could have done better.



This is one I have not seen. I've heard good things about it, but have never heard it revered as some matches have been. I'd have to watch.

An overrated smark favorite because Benoit wins the title. Put Batista in Benoit's place, let the match play out exactly the same way with same execution and everything and it's a 3 *** match. But, because it was Chris Benoit winning the title, it gets overrated.

How can a match no one remembers be a great performance?




I said MAYBE to Angle 1, but nothing else after.

You're kidding right?

Includes Cena. Also, notice how from 2005 until present you only have one good HBK match? HBK vs. Angle at WM? And, then, he has two very good matches with Cena? Think about it.

Big Show vs. Ric Flair on ECW was a better match than either of these.

Both of these contain Cena.




Since 2005, Cena's consistency with good matches surpasses Taker, HBK and HHH. And, he's only 30 years old. Wait until he's 34 or 35, and has several years of experience under his belt.


I don't know. From about Wrestlemania to Unforgiven of last year, he had a hell of a stretch. HHH, RVD, Edge three times. He was pretty damn good. Hell, he even made Sabu watchable (and that's hard to do in a WWE environment).

Agreed. If we're comparing the cumulative career of each wrestler. If we're comparing the 42 Taker or HBK, or the 38 year old HHH, I'd take Cena's work, in terms of versatility, consistency, and enjoyment.

.

zi dont think he was the one generating heat.it was the sheer fact that it was an ECW ennvironment and RVD is an original.Simple as that.

As for Taker and Angle its amazing.Runner up for PWI's Match of the Year.

Honestly, I dont think it is overrated at all.Sure Benoit won the title and thats what it is mostly going to be remembered for but there is great wrestling some nice moves and some good double team moves.

I remember the match and it was amazing.Went for thirty minutes.Don't find too many Raw matches like that.There are many great matches some people just forget occasionally.

Their encounter at Wrestlemania had me on the edge of my seat.I was there since I live 30 miuntes away from Hollywood.Definite classic.The second may ot be a classic but surely is a 5 star match.

Shawn has had plenty of good matches since 2005.Not many are classics though.

Those two matches with Flair/Triple H are way better than the one with Big Show.Great brutal match.The one especially at Taboo Tuesday was great in every aspect.

I agree with the fact Triple H hasn't been putting on many great matches.

John Cena does not have better consistancy than HBK and Taker.HHH he has surpassed though.

Wrestlemania 22iss poor main event.Half the moves done were clotheslines.

Backlash:Entertaining Triple Threat.

Vengeance:Watchable.

Summerslam:Great match surprisingly.

Unforgiven:Good match.

Shawns matches are still better than Cenas.Lately Cenas matches(although still bad)have been better than Triple Hs and some of Undertakers.

 

[Lil Wes]

His performance at One Night Stand 2 was nothing short of Hogan-esque. The way he manipulated that crowd, the way he had them eating out of the palm of his hand, how he could get them to "ooh and ahh" him one moment and booing him relentlessly the next was nothing short of amazing. Hulk Hogan himself is the only man who could have done better.

I agree. Cena pwned that crowd. Even though I agree with every chant the directed at him. I give him credit for having the nuts to go inside the crowd area. They said "same old shit" Cena busted out a high risk elbow drop. Also another one of the better Cena matches.

Decent match but not a "great performance" like you said.

Was better than Cena/JBL easily.

Not as good as their WM match.

Agreed.

This is one I have not seen. I've heard good things about it, but have never heard it revered as some matches have been. I'd have to watch.

Another very good Taker match. You should check it out.

Hardly a great performance by either man.

It's Boretista. Any man would have a hard time pulling a good match out of him. Taker/Boretista WM was way better and actually a very good match. Take Taker out put Cena in and it would have been one of the worst in WM history.

An overrated smark favorite because Benoit wins the title. Put Batista in Benoit's place, let the match play out exactly the same way with same execution and everything and it's a 3 *** match. But, because it was Chris Benoit winning the title, it gets overrated.

Boretista cannot do the things Beniot could do. He doesn't have the abilty in the ring as Beniot does. That match was very good. You like storytelling in the ring that told a story. Damn good match at least 4 1/2 stars.

How can a match no one remembers be a great performance?

Because it wasn't

Not even close.

Hogan/HBK was god awful. I'm sure though if it was Cena plugged in HBK's spot it would be either worse or no better at all.

I said MAYBE to Angle 1, but nothing else after.

Vengeance was a damn good match. On the same level as Cena/HBK on RAW IMO.

You're kidding right?

Good gimmick match with the big high spots...Just as good as Edge/Cena TLC

Includes Cena. Also, notice how from 2005 until present you only have one good HBK match? HBK vs. Angle at WM? And, then, he has two very good matches with Cena? Think about it.

The whole dumbass DX angle got in the way of his singles career and he had been injured for quite sometime.

Big Show vs. Ric Flair on ECW was a better match than either of these.

...disagree on the cage match though. Flair/HHH cage match was very good. Plug Cena in HHH's spot and it would have been worse.

Since 2005, Cena's consistency with good matches surpasses Taker, HBK and HHH. And, he's only 30 years old. Wait until he's 34 or 35, and has several years of experience under his belt.

No..NO...and NO! it doesn't Cena has been dropping the ball this year. I've said that alot. The consistency of his matches aren't consistent. He shines one month then the next goes back to being garbage. Those 3 never had a problem with consistency.

I don't know. From about Wrestlemania to Unforgiven of last year, he had a hell of a stretch. HHH, RVD, Edge three times. He was pretty damn good. Hell, he even made Sabu watchable (and that's hard to do in a WWE environment).

Yeah but from since then he has dropped the ball unbelievably. Being booked in Tag matches with Tista and feuding with K-Fed for god's sake isn't going to help neither. That's why he is getting so much recent hate. This year he isn't consistent at all.

Agreed. If we're comparing the cumulative career of each wrestler. If we're comparing the 42 Taker or HBK, or the 38 year old HHH, I'd take Cena's work, in terms of versatility, consistency, and enjoyment.

I'll find out who I choose when they both return.

There is no doubt that HHH's work with Cena was the best he had for a couple of years. And the same goes with HBK. That should say something.

HHH and HBK have always been good consistent workers. They rarely go from outstanding match to garbage. Sure they have their bad matches but last years whole DX Bullshit reunion really hurt their singles time. When HHH and HBK both heal and get back into the main event scene this upcoming year I'm very sure they will have no problem delievering and keeping us entertained. Cena is always questionable.

 

[ramifaraj]

slyfox how old are u cuz u sound lik cenas 8 year old b****. hes got no talent watsoever. we hate on him becuz hes had the title for 2 years with no talent. nobody said that we LOVE batista. we dnt hate him becuz he didnt have the title for 2 years and at least hes big. he can pull off his animal gimmick. who will ever believe that cena is a real rapper that somehow became a never say die marine that can never lose. i knt wait until sumerslam because on august 26, 2007 DESTINEY BECOMES REALITY!!!

 

[Slyfox696]

Was better than Cena/JBL easily.

I wouldn't claim Cena/JBL to be a great match. A good match certainly, main-event caliber, but not great.

It's Boretista. Any man would have a hard time pulling a good match out of him. Taker/Boretista WM was way better and actually a very good match. Take Taker out put Cena in and it would have been one of the worst in WM history.

Funny, I said the same things about Cena's matches vs. Khali, and yet you never seemed to acknowledge that.

Are you saying Khali is better than Batista?

Boretista cannot do the things Beniot could do. He doesn't have the abilty in the ring as Beniot does. That match was very good. You like storytelling in the ring that told a story. Damn good match at least 4 1/2 stars.

I was saying, hypothetically, if he did, it wouldn't have been as good. Point being that if it wasn't for the emotional after-match ceremonies it wouldn't have been such a great match. The match itself was not that great. It was everything surrounding it that people remember being good. The match itself is lacking in several areas.

Hogan/HBK was god awful. I'm sure though if it was Cena plugged in HBK's spot it would be either worse or no better at all.

I have to disagree, and not just because I like Cena. I think it would have been better for two reasons.

1) Cena would have a more believable offense against Hogan. HBK himself, in his books, states that his best attribute is selling, and that carrying the offensive portion of a match is not. HBK's offense is average at best, and against a guy much larger than him, is difficult to believe. Cena, though, as strong as an ox with a power offense game would have been able to carry the offense better than HBK. Think about it. Which Cena vs. HBK match was better? WM was HBK carried the offense or Raw where Cena did? I think Cena could have played a much better adversary than HBK.

2) Cena would have been tickled to death and completely honored to have been in the same ring as Hogan, unlike HBK who made it very obvious how unhappy he was about being there. The tension that obviously was between HBK and Hogan brought their match down, compared to what it could have been if they had wanted to work together and put on the best match possible. I think Hogan and Cena would have wanted to work together a lot more than HBK and Hogan did.

That's why I think Cena vs. Hogan would be a better match.

Good gimmick match with the big high spots...Just as good as Edge/Cena TLC

The WM 22 vs. McMahon was awful. It was garbage wrestling saved by a couple of big spots, most notably the one from the ladder to the garbage can. There were easily three matches that were far superior on the card, including HHH vs. Cena.

The whole dumbass DX angle got in the way of his singles career and he had been injured for quite sometime.

So? You said before that Cena was at fault for not putting on good 4 and 5 man matches. How come HHH or HBK can't put on great tag matches?

Those 3 never had a problem with consistency.

Well, if you mean they've been consistently average over the last few years, I guess I could give that to you...

slyfox how old are u cuz u sound lik cenas 8 year old b****.

Actually, I am 22 years old (almost 23) and male. Thank you for asking.

 

[hbk&triple h]

I wouldn't claim Cena/JBL to be a great match. A good match certainly, main-event caliber, but not great.




I have to disagree, and not just because I like Cena. I think it would have been better for two reasons.

1) Cena would have a more believable offense against Hogan. HBK himself, in his books, states that his best attribute is selling, and that carrying the offensive portion of a match is not. HBK's offense is average at best, and against a guy much larger than him, is difficult to believe. Cena, though, as strong as an ox with a power offense game would have been able to carry the offense better than HBK. Think about it. Which Cena vs. HBK match was better? WM was HBK carried the offense or Raw where Cena did? I think Cena could have played a much better adversary than HBK.



The WM 22 vs. McMahon was awful. It was garbage wrestling saved by a couple of big spots, most notably the one from the ladder to the garbage can. There were easily three matches that were far superior on the card, including HHH vs. Cena.

That match was not even good it was a horrible match up.The feud was big and I enjoyed it and then we got the match.Horrible main event.

True his offense could be better, but all of Hogans matches have consisted of him being dominated and coming back with the 5 Moves of Doom.Why?because he was a bad wrestler.

Cena is never really on the offensive side either.Wrestlemania match had points where Cena dominated for a period of time.Raw match in Milan had him on offense all match.That is going to make cena look a whole heck of a lot better looking in the offense department.

It wasn't meant to be a wrestling match in the slightest bit.It was a huge rivalry going for months and was a No Holds Barred Match.It was never meant to be wrestling.The entertainment was great and had nice spots throughout the match.if it was awful why was it Match of the Year?

HHH vs. Cena was average at best.The entrances were more appealing and long than the match itself.

The only match that may be better on that card is the Womens Championship match.

 

[Lil Wes]

I wouldn't claim Cena/JBL to be a great match. A good match certainly, main-event caliber, but not great.

It wasn't near as good as RKO/Taker. Winning the title in 9 Minutes on the biggest stage of them all isn't going to cut it.

Funny, I said the same things about Cena's matches vs. Khali, and yet you never seemed to acknowledge that.

What do you mean? I said you put Cena in for Taker and that match would be terrible. While you leave Taker the match was great. Why? Because Taker can pull good,watchable matches out of shit wrestlers. Cena cannot and it was noticable against Khali.

Now before you say Taker/Khali was bad also. I never seen it as I didnt have the channel for SD! during that time.

Taker is a better consistent wrestler than Cena. Then and Now.

Are you saying Khali is better than Batista?

Both are terrible. Neither are main event worthy.

I was saying, hypothetically, if he did, it wouldn't have been as good. Point being that if it wasn't for the emotional after-match ceremonies it wouldn't have been such a great match. The match itself was not that great. It was everything surrounding it that people remember being good. The match itself is lacking in several areas.

That match was one of the better match in WM history. I don't care what anyone says it had me and everyone on the edge of our seats. While Cena's triple threats last year and championship challenge and fatal 4 way did not.

The WM 22 vs. McMahon was awful. It was garbage wrestling saved by a couple of big spots, most notably the one from the ladder to the garbage can. There were easily three matches that were far superior on the card, including HHH vs. Cena.

More and just as entertaining as Cena's matches with Umaga and Edge. The wrestling might have been garbage but look at it this way it was more entertaining than Edge/Cena and remember you said it yourself Wrestling is Entertainment. That match entertained me more. Thats also why it was named match of the year 2006. By the way HBK has 7 of those I believe. Including 3 consectutive years from 04-06 You want to know how many Johnny Boy has?....0

So? You said before that Cena was at fault for not putting on good 4 and 5 man matches. How come HHH or HBK can't put on great tag matches?

The spirit squad is god awful. Thats why. They also were tagging against OVW worthy opponents Johnny Boy was going against 3 of the biggest stars in WWE today and a legend in Foley

 

[Slyfox696]

That match was not even good it was a horrible match up.The feud was big and I enjoyed it and then we got the match.Horrible main event.

We were talking about the JBL/Cena I Quit match from Judgment Day.

True his offense could be better, but all of Hogans matches have consisted of him being dominated and coming back with the 5 Moves of Doom.Why?because he was a bad wrestler.

You obviously haven't seen all of Hogans work. Otherwise you wouldn't make such a claim. You are talking mostly about 1988-1994 work. Watch his earlier work. Watch his Japan matches.

Hogan was one of the best wrestlers ever.

Cena is never really on the offensive side either.Wrestlemania match had points where Cena dominated for a period of time.Raw match in Milan had him on offense all match.That is going to make cena look a whole heck of a lot better looking in the offense department.

Exactly?

This is what I have been saying for the longest time. People always complain about him only have 5 moves and how he sucks, well, the WWE babyface style is why he does that. Which, is also why you don't measure good wrestling in terms of moves. The point I was trying to make was that the match dominated by HBK's offense was not as good as the match dominated by Cena's offense. Cena also carried the majority of the offense at ONS 2 as well.

It wasn't meant to be a wrestling match in the slightest bit.It was a huge rivalry going for months and was a No Holds Barred Match.It was never meant to be wrestling.The entertainment was great and had nice spots throughout the match.if it was awful why was it Match of the Year?

It wasn't match of the year. I'm guessing your going by the PWI awards, awards which are voted on by readers of the PWI magazine. Hardly a credible source. For example, the 1998 Match of the Year was Undertaker vs. Mankind, HIAC? Yeah, spare me. It was a total garbage match that should have been saved for a "B" PPV, not Wrestlemania.

HHH vs. Cena was average at best.The entrances were more appealing and long than the match itself.

You should go back and watch the match again, and notice the very good storytelling in the match. Watch how HHH "outwrestles" Cena in the beginning. How Cena tries to "wrestle" HHH, and keeps getting burned. Follow the story of the match from there all the way to the moment HHH gets beat by Cena. How does he get beat by Cena? A classic wrestling move in a drop toe hold, and he floats over into a submission hold. The "new school" brawler, showed he could win a "wrestling" match with the "old school" veteran by using a wrestling move and a submission hold to win. That's storytelling.

The only match that may be better on that card is the Womens Championship match.

Trish vs. Mickie, Edge vs. Foley, and HHH vs. Cena were all easily better than HBK vs. McMahon.

 

[hbk&triple h]

We were talking about the JBL/Cena I Quit match from Judgment Day.

You obviously haven't seen all of Hogans work. Otherwise you wouldn't make such a claim. You are talking mostly about 1988-1994 work. Watch his earlier work. Watch his Japan matches.

Hogan was one of the best wrestlers ever.

Exactly?

This is what I have been saying for the longest time. People always complain about him only have 5 moves and how he sucks, well, the WWE babyface style is why he does that. Which, is also why you don't measure good wrestling in terms of moves. The point I was trying to make was that the match dominated by HBK's offense was not as good as the match dominated by Cena's offense. Cena also carried the majority of the offense at ONS 2 as well.

It wasn't match of the year. I'm guessing your going by the PWI awards, awards which are voted on by readers of the PWI magazine. Hardly a credible source. For example, the 1998 Match of the Year was Undertaker vs. Mankind, HIAC? Yeah, spare me. It was a total garbage match that should have been saved for a "B" PPV, not Wrestlemania.

You should go back and watch the match again, and notice the very good storytelling in the match. Watch how HHH "outwrestles" Cena in the beginning. How Cena tries to "wrestle" HHH, and keeps getting burned. Follow the story of the match from there all the way to the moment HHH gets beat by Cena. How does he get beat by Cena? A classic wrestling move in a drop toe hold, and he floats over into a submission hold. The "new school" brawler, showed he could win a "wrestling" match with the "old school" veteran by using a wrestling move and a submission hold to win. That's storytelling.

Trish vs. Mickie, Edge vs. Foley, and HHH vs. Cena were all easily better than HBK vs. McMahon.

Oh.Well then it was entertaining.Hated the ending though.

Nope.Never seen his Japan work.Never heard much talk about it either.Maybe I'll check it out.

True.It was the better match.As for ONS2 I hated the match except for the crowd.And the amazing ending.

Good storytelling..I'll give it to you.I just didn't like the match though.

Yeah.By PWI.It is reliable enough though because all the other winners before seem to be correct.

Trish vs. Mickie I will say might have just been better.The other two.Nope.Hardcore match, while it was an excellent match I enjoyed the other one much better.

 

[Slyfox696]

It wasn't near as good as RKO/Taker. Winning the title in 9 Minutes on the biggest stage of them all isn't going to cut it.

We were talking about the I Quit match from Judgment Day.

What do you mean? I said you put Cena in for Taker and that match would be terrible. While you leave Taker the match was great. Why? Because Taker can pull good,watchable matches out of shit wrestlers. Cena cannot and it was noticable against Khali.

My point was that you excused HHH's match with Batista because it was Batista, and no one gets a good match, so it's acceptable for him not to consistently put on good matches because of that. My point is that I was saying the exact same thing about Khali, and you refused to acknowledge that. You can't have it both ways. Either HHH is inconsistent in 2005 as his 3 matches with Batista were all crap, or we accept the fact that even good wrestlers can't always get a good match out of bad workers.

Now before you say Taker/Khali was bad also. I never seen it as I didnt have the channel for SD! during that time.

You can find it online many places. That's how I watched it. Cena vs. Khali at One Night Stand was better.

That match was one of the better match in WM history. I don't care what anyone says it had me and everyone on the edge of our seats. While Cena's triple threats last year and championship challenge and fatal 4 way did not.

Again, do you not think the fact that it was Benoit played a major part in that? Of course it did.

Savage/Steamboat - 3
Hogan/Warrior - 6
Warrior/Savage - 7
Flair/Savage - 8
Bret/Owen - 10
HBK/Razor - 10
Bret/Austin - 13
Austin/HBK - 14
Austin/Rock - 17
Rock/Hogan -18

There are ten matches which are better than HBK/HHH/Benoit. And of those on the list at least 7 of them cannot be disputed. The only ones that can be disputed is Hogan/Warrior, Austin/HBK, and Rock/Hogan. And, sheer workrate alone puts Hogan/Warrior and Rock/Hogan above the WM20. There are other matches I feel are ahead of WM 20, but I think those 10 most people can look at understand easily enough.

More and just as entertaining as Cena's matches with Umaga and Edge. The wrestling might have been garbage but look at it this way it was more entertaining than Edge/Cena and remember you said it yourself Wrestling is Entertainment.

Good wrestling doesn't rely on cheap pops generated from random spotty moments in matches. A good match can get great reaction and great entertainment if no one ever leaves their feet. That obviously wasn't going to happen in this match, so they pulled out garbage wrestling and relied on big spots, many of which were unrealistic, and the match lacked any semblance of direction.

Thats also why it was named match of the year 2006. By the way HBK has 7 of those I believe.

By readers of PWI magazine. I'd love to see with what authority those readers had to make such a determinant.

Including 3 consectutive years from 04-06 You want to know how many Johnny Boy has?....0

Oooh! A wrestler with 20 years experience has more match of the years than someone who has only been in for 5, as determined by a magazine which is read by mostly by smarks, most of which think Cena sucks for some unknown reason? Well, it looks like you got me there.

Pro Wrestling Illustrated hasn't been credible for 15 years. You're going to have to try a lot harder than that. Like I said, the 1998 MOTY was Taker vs. Mankind in HIAC. I guess that match was great too, right? We both agreed it wasn't, and that magazine is not at all credible.

The spirit squad is god awful. Thats why. They also were tagging against OVW worthy opponents Johnny Boy was going against 3 of the biggest stars in WWE today and a legend in Foley

And don't forget that DX is green, and those who wear green generally aren't allowed as many moves, and it was clear that the Spi....nevermind. You are making up rules and conditions, and changing them as we go along.

Look, to be objective you have to gauge everyone the same way. Either quality of opponents count, or it doesn't. Either multi-man matches count or they don't.

What set of rules are we going to play by?

 

[Slyfox696]

Oh.Well then it was entertaining.Hated the ending though.

Rare are the matches where there is a good ending to an I Quit match. Most I Quit matches don't have good endings. There are exceptions of course, but most do not.

Nope.Never seen his Japan work.Never heard much talk about it either.Maybe I'll check it out.

If you want to see Hogan get on the mat and technical wrestle, AND not "hulk up" there are plenty of Japan matches. Look for his match with Tenryu (spelling?). While it is not an exceptionally great match, Hogan will demonstrate what you want to see from him.

Yeah.By PWI.It is reliable enough though because all the other winners before seem to be correct.

As I said to Wes, PWI hasn't been reliable for 15 years. Look at the 1998 winner. Undertaker vs. Mankind HIAC was the best match of 1998? Not hardly. Austin vs. HBK blew it completely out of the water, and I didn't even have to try to think of that. And, the point is that those who vote can't have their opinions trusted. Thus, making most of those awards dismissable.

Trish vs. Mickie I will say might have just been better.The other two.Nope.Hardcore match, while it was an excellent match I enjoyed the other one much better.

I'm not sure how you can say a match with great psychology in Foley and Edge is beat out by a match devoid of everything but random illogical spots, but to each their own.

 

[Slyfox696]

Oh, and I just want to throw one more thing in.


Do you know who the 2006 PWI Wrestler of the Year was?


John Cena. *smirks*

 

[hbk&triple h]

Either HHH is inconsistent in 2005 as his 3 matches with Batista were all crap, or we accept the fact that even good wrestlers can't always get a good match out of bad workers.


Again, do you not think the fact that it was Benoit played a major part in that? Of course it did.

Savage/Steamboat - 3
Hogan/Warrior - 6
Warrior/Savage - 7
Flair/Savage - 8
Bret/Owen - 10
HBK/Razor - 10
Bret/Austin - 13
Austin/HBK - 14
Austin/Rock - 17
Rock/Hogan -18

There are ten matches which are better than HBK/HHH/Benoit. And of those on the list at least 7 of them cannot be disputed. The only ones that can be disputed is Hogan/Warrior, Austin/HBK, and Rock/Hogan. And, sheer workrate alone puts Hogan/Warrior and Rock/Hogan above the WM20. There are other matches I feel are ahead of WM 20, but I think those 10 most people can look at understand easily enough.

Good wrestling doesn't rely on cheap pops generated from random spotty moments in matches. A good match can get great reaction and great entertainment if no one ever leaves their feet. That obviously wasn't going to happen in this match, so they pulled out garbage wrestling and relied on big spots, many of which were unrealistic, and the match lacked any semblance of direction.


Pro Wrestling Illustrated hasn't been credible for 15 years. You're going to have to try a lot harder than that. Like I said, the 1998 MOTY was Taker vs. Mankind in HIAC. I guess that match was great too, right? We both agreed it wasn't, and that magazine is not at all credible.

Triple H was very inconsistant in 2005.He had about three good matches on pay per view the whole year and the rest were meh.But then again he was gone a good portion of the year.

Of course Benoit plays a big part of that match.It was still one hell of a main event though.

I would say those ten are easily understandable.Except for Austin/Rock, and Hogan Rock.While definetly top 15, I dont think top ten for these two.I would say replace one with the match with Michaels and Angle or Jericho and the other with Benoit/Angle.

Of course just a plain ol' wrestling match can get a great pop, but as you have said it yourself Wrestling is Entertainment.And thats what the match was about.

Besides those two huge spots the match was bad.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Rare are the matches where there is a good ending to an I Quit match. Most I Quit matches don't have good endings. There are exceptions of course, but most do not.

If you want to see Hogan get on the mat and technical wrestle, AND not "hulk up" there are plenty of Japan matches. Look for his match with Tenryu (spelling?). While it is not an exceptionally great match, Hogan will demonstrate what you want to see from him.

As I said to Wes, PWI hasn't been reliable for 15 years. Look at the 1998 winner. Undertaker vs. Mankind HIAC was the best match of 1998? Not hardly. Austin vs. HBK blew it completely out of the water, and I didn't even have to try to think of that. And, the point is that those who vote can't have their opinions trusted. Thus, making most of those awards dismissable.

I'm not sure how you can say a match with great psychology in Foley and Edge is beat out by a match devoid of everything but random illogical spots, but to each their own.

True.Most of them have bad endings.

I'll be sure to check it out.OMG he doesn't hulk up.!!Must see.

That match was considered runner up which I agree is totally wrong because it is ana amazing match.

I don't know why but I just liked the No Holds Barred match better.I think it just has to do with the fact that I was anticipating one more than the other and it didn't fail to entertain.It lived up to my expectations.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Oh, and I just want to throw one more thing in.


Do you know who the 2006 PWI Wrestler of the Year was?


John Cena. *smirks*

Hahah.True.Shawn was number one in 1996.Number 2 in 1995.Number 3 in 1993.Number 5 in 1995.John Cena still has a lot of things to do to gain all these numbers.Why he was voted number one is beyond me though.Edge definetly deserved that spot way more.Oh well Superman is number one so John Cena must be.

 

[Slyfox696]

Hahah.True.Shawn was number one in 1996.Number 2 in 1995.Number 3 in 1993.Number 5 in 1995.John Cena still has a lot of things to do to gain all these numbers.Why he was voted number one is beyond me though.Edge definetly deserved that spot way more.Oh well Superman is number one so John Cena must be.

Yes, but three things.

1) The Cena vs. HBK debate is in another thread. We're talking about Cena's quality.

2) John Cena is ranked number 2 in 2005, and I'd say probably well on his way to another high ranking in 2007.

3) All of HBK's awards were from ten years ago or more.


This whole PWI thing has got you corned. You'd be better off agreeing with me that PWI is crap and doesn't mean a thing.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Yes, but three things.


2) John Cena is ranked number 2 in 2005, and I'd say probably well on his way to another high ranking in 2007.



This whole PWI thing has got you corned. You'd be better off agreeing with me that PWI is crap and doesn't mean a thing.

I don't know why he got ranked there.2006 should have gone to Edge for number one and 2005 should be Cena at 3.Batista with 1 sadly.And Shawn with two.

PWI is somewhat crap with some of their rulings but a lot are agreeable.

http://www.accelerator3359.com/Wrestling/pwi500/pwimatch.html

Most decisions made seem fine.But John only has one up there.And it's a third runner up.He might have evntertaining matches but none are worth being match of the year.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't know why he got ranked there.2006 should have gone to Edge for number one and 2005 should be Cena at 3.Batista with 1 sadly.And Shawn with two.

PWI is somewhat crap with some of their rulings but a lot are agreeable.

No, John Cena deserved #1 in 2006, if PWI put him there or not. He was champion through most of it, drew the best through most of it, made the most money through most of it, and put on the best matches throughout. Can anyone claim as many good matches as Cena in 2006? His feud with Edge was Feud of the Year, his match with HHH was crazy hot as was his ONS 2 match.

John Cena deserved #1 in 2006, and, thus far, deserves it for 2007.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Edge definetly desered it.While he was champion throough most of it unfortuantely, Edge rose to main event status.Was involved in Feud of the year.Was champion twice.Put on some amazing matches and was definetly top heel.I think he deserved the top spot.John Cena with number two though.Because he did all of the things you mentioned.

 

[Slyfox696]

Edge definetly desered it.While he was champion throough most of it unfortuantely, Edge rose to main event status.

Yes, during his feud with Cena.

Was involved in Feud of the year.

Yes, with Cena.

Was champion twice.

Cena was 3 times.

Put on some amazing matches

3 of which were with Cena.

and was definetly top heel.

Only because of his feud with Cena.



Cena made Edge a main-eventer in 2006. He made him believable and he made him credible. Cena made Edge in 2006.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Yes, during his feud with Cena.

Yes, with Cena.

3 of which were with Cena.

Cena made Edge a main-eventer in 2006. He made him believable and he made him credible. Cena made Edge in 2006.

No.He rose to that occasion by winning Money In the Bank.Cena just happened to be the champion at that moment.

Yes but Edge started their feud.Not cena.

Just because it was with cena doesn't make it a good match.Both of them being able to put on a good match with each other makes it good.

Sure Cena helped put him there but Edge would have been there one day regardless of Cena being the man that he feuded with.