[Official] John Cena Thread

[Kasey]

Who cares about that? It's for entertainment purposes. It's called "working the crowd".

I'm not entertained. Sue me.

So, it's Cena's fault his opponent don't know how to sell the move? Show me a picture of Cena's STFU where his arms cross in front of his opponents windpipe, and not around both sides of the neck.

Selling the move is irrelevant, when you really stop and think about it. Did you even read your second sentence before you typed it? If both hands are around the neck...where do they meet? Throat. Windpipe, maybe?

Let's face it. If Chris Benoit did the exact same move, and applied it the exact same way, it would go from "piss-poor" to "excellent". It's only "piss-poor" because it is Cena.

It'd still be stupid because chokes are illegal in the WWE supposedly. The STF is applied much the same way as Benoit's hold or Regal's hold: ACROSS THE FACE. Not the throat or neck as that constitutes a choke. The fact that they still sell a sleeper as a non-choke is one of the WWE's dumb little idiosyncrasies that should be done away with. The difference in the sleeper is that it isn't sold to look like a choke. However, the STFU looks very much like choking to me.

I'm confused. Not really sure what you mean here. The original concept was something about how Rey is better than RVD.

Don't worry about it. You're comparing two guys who function on acrobatics. Misterio's matches have no more "logic" or realism in them than a fight scene on Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. It's just more accepted because it's en vogue to claim RVD is a spot monkey. Lucha is spot-monkeyism when you get right down to it. It's all high spots.

No, it was not. Dismember to December.

WWE event. Not some poorly stitched ECW asswipe that everyone knew was going to stink going in. I'm talking an actual WWE event from one of the two big shows. I apologize for not being specific, Sly.

Coincidentally (or not) the most bought wrestling PPV ever.

Yes, and hopefully that'll pad the rest of the year like it's had to since shortly after the turn of the millenium.

Decent talent like who? HBK? Been there done that...he failed. Benoit? Yeah, 2004 was the worst average Raw rating since the 90s. HHH? Isn't 10 title reigns enough to show that he can't lead the WWE into another boom period? The Undertaker? Doesn't he actually have to wrestle full-time? Randy Orton? Possibly, if the son of a bitch wasn't a loser in his personal life. Rey Mysterio? Yeah, I think we all saw how that reign went. Edge? Pretty certain he has the title now. RVD? They tried that and he pissed it away. CM Punk? Maybe in a couple of years. Mr. Kennedy? Maybe if he could do something competent besides scream his own name. Umaga? Khali?

Looking at Benoit's follow-up to the Wrestlemania program and the lovely saddling with a complete waste of space like Kane...let's just say I'm surprised it got the ratings it did. Edge would've been fine by me as the long-standing heel by the summer of 2005 (circumstances notwithstanding injury stuff or crap involving Matt Hardy). My choices were two other guys who are doing much better in TNA right now (and I know you know who I'm referring to). RVD just didn't get the preferential "Stone Cold" welcome back after his problems came to a head. For pete's sake, he's been in High Times. It's not like people didn't know he was on weed. The WWE commentary staff plugged his/Misterio's tandem move in the most unclever fashion imaginable. Even with some of those names like Orton, Taker, and HHH, it wouldn't matter much anyway. As I've stated in numerous other threads, with the quality of booking they do, they'd find a way to ruin just about anything.

So who. Who do you put the belt on?

If not Edge? At this point, they're screwed. And they did it to themselves. All of the potential marquee players they had to fill the void and build into credible heels for the faces to chase are out (Angle, Christian, Jericho,).

You should probably actually watch the Wrestlemania 21 match before you make such terribly ignorant statements. The crowd was anything but in the "let's get up and go take a piss" mode. I'm watching the match right now. He ducks the Clothesline From Hell, and gets JBL up in the FU. As he does so, the entire crowd rises to its feet. They then count in unison 1-2-3, and pop big when he wins. He then stands up on the security railing and celebrates with the entire crowd reacting to him when he raises his arms and the belt.

Actually, I was stupid enough to pay for it on PPV. I also made sure to cut it out of my VHS dubbing. The crowd didn't give a rat's ass for half the match. If it wasn't for the fact that it was for THE TITLE, it might as well have been the opener. The fact is they were blown out of the water by a medicated Angle and an old HBK. Simple as that. A couple of last gimmie pops by an audience for a finisher in an otherwise pathetic attempt for a main event is NOT going to cut the mustard with me. It may do you wonders, but that isn't really my problem. No see saw back-and-forth action. No solid intrigue or great near falls. A borefest that wasn't saved by a last gasp of an ultra-predictable, cookie-cutter, good-guy ending that we'd get to see plenty more of in times to come.

Watch the match.

Never again. Twice was enough.

Because it is 3 years more time to work matches than Cena has had in his whole career? And, I liked Tatanka match too. But, are you going to tell me that is better than Cena vs. Edge? Or HHH? Or HBK? Or Umaga? I really hope you don't say yes to that.

Why instead don't we compare the portions of their careers when they were pushed to the top, might I ask? Let's say Michaels from about 1995 or so on. Cena from 2004 on. Considering the time limit given and the ending they had to work with for a MIDCARD match way before Michaels even hit his peak, I'd say Chavis and HBK did alright. My point that I'm trying to get across to you is that HBK spent loads of time honing his craft until he got the rub. Cena just showed up as a pretty boy on the first night and they let him look good against Kurt freakin' Angle?!? Vince has a hard-on for bodybuilders who can talk. Cena is no exception.

Because five-star matches are completely subjective. There is only one recognized authority in the world that I'm aware of on the subject of 5 star matches. And, I think we can both agree his opinion is no less subjective than yours or mine.

BUT, for argument's sake, just to save a post, let's say we take Meltzer as the authority. Using Meltzer, the only one with any real recognized authority on the star rating system, John Cena has had 32 matches that have been rated 3 stars or better since 2003. Shawn Michaels has had 94 matches rated 3 star or better. John Cena has been in the WWE since 2002. Shawn Michaels has been in the WWF/E since 1988. So, in Cena's five years, he's averaged 6.4 matches a year in which he earns 3 stars or better. Shawn, in his 19 years, averages 4.94 3 star matches a year.

Since I'm lazy, calculate the matches for Michaels from 1995 on. Not so I can win any sort of argument, but because I'd actually like to know what he scores. I think you are the only person who researches more than me. Although, I do divvy up my time geeking out to comic books, movies, and music, so I do what I can, Sly.

Now, I know what you are thinking. "But Slyfox, HBK was out with injuries". Good point. So, let's take out the 4 years HBK wasn't performing. 94 divided by 15 equals...6.27. Hmmm...

I wasn't thinking that...but just calculate his ACTIVE years during the times he was pushed from 1995 on and see what the numbers say. Please. I hate math, man.

Complexity? What complexity? The Raw and Wrestlemania matches were different matches. HBK carried the offense for the majority of the WM match, and Cena carried it for the Raw match. Cena in the Raw match played the role of the guy who tried everything he knew to keep Shawn down but he "won't stay down".

Proper climactic build that finishes at a fever pitch? Body part work. All of the old stables of extended match work that Cena is foreign to. Look at some of the other matches that Michaels has been in that were extended. Angle? Hart? The psychology was always there and there was serious realistic intrigue to the matches. Hell, Michaels even made Sid entertaining. Let's also talk a proper build in the matches. Take for example the Cena/Umaga Last Man Standing match you revere so much. Cena can't even find the way out of the match. The crowd was deflated by the ending point of it because he didn't have the smarts to end it with the first rope choke.

Oh, I see. So, because the match is longer clearly HBK carried him. Wow, and I truly thought I had seen all of the arguments against Cena.

On a side note: Cena's Elimination Chamber match, in which he was one of the first two entrants, last longer than the HBK Wrestlemania match. And, Cena's match with HHH went 22 minutes, while HBK with 28. So, clearly Cena can put on long main-event matches.

Now, you're getting it. Where did I discuss a match that involved numerous other participants? If this is also the case, let's discuss each guys turn in the Royal Rumble while we're at it? No. I'm talking singles competition, so disussion of an Elimination Chamber length is moot because the action is distributed by more than five guys.

No, but he did completely forget the work Cena did to his back on Raw a couple of times. *shrugs*. And, Cena did not take a "complete shellacking". Like I said to Xfear earlier, the problem was not his no-selling, it was his over-selling of the original shot to the knee. Watch the match again, for the exact moment that they go with the knee story.

Yes, his knee damn sure did. Michaels spent an extended period putting a "Horsemen-esque" beatdown on it. Cena promptly got up and "he-manned" his way to an illogical comeback. Over-selling the first shot was not a problem at all. That was the way to sell it. It looked great when HBK kicked him the first few times. He just forgot to keep doing it. Then he just forgot about it altogether. Up until the end of that exchange when Cena promptly rises to his feet and shakes off knee trauma like it was just that his leg fell asleep, I was actually into the match. And I mean, REALLY into it.

I just don't even know what to say to such ridiculous assumptions presented as fact. Cena has been in MANY good matches with many guys. All I can say is that clearly the WWE has a lot more great workers, all of whom carry the champ, then I thought.

Well, just take a look at Cena's previous matches. Now if you can sit there and tell me with in all honesty that Cena had EVER put on a match that got the response THROUGHOUT that his two matches with HBK did, had the length they did (and didn't involve The friggin' Chamber) I'll rest my case on this point. I don't believe in coincidences, when it comes to quality of work, Sly. Neither should you.

See, I was under the mistaken notion that generally the champion calls a lot of the match. You know, because he's the champ?

Andre called WM3. Hogan was still fishy about the outcome as he didn't know what Andre was going to do or if was going to shoot on him. After Andre had some whine (a few bottles if I recall) everything went off like planned. Sting was also a guy who never really called his spots. As much as I love the guy, Lance Storm of all people went on record as saying he was clueless in the ring at times. Being the champ means you wear a belt. It doesn't mean you're in charge. Do you think Batista called Undertaker's spots at Mania? I mean, he was the champ right?

And, that's indicative of Cena's abilities how? How is Cena a bad wrestler because the Rock was turned face? I'm not understanding.

The response is everything. Despite everything that Rock did...THEY LOVED HIM. Despite everything Cena does...many HATE HIM. Understand now?

Hey, we've been doing this for months. I know I enjoy it, even if this post was a little more edgy. It's three in the morning and I'm tired as can be. Nothing personal.

No problem, dude. I've got to get some sleep, too. Later.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Hahaha...I watch TNA all the time. I have a couple of ROH DVDs, as well as a few other indy DVDs. I have a collection of some of the top Puro matches of the 90s. I've been watching wrestling since the late 80s, which includes various other promotions. Spare me this "the further you get away from WWE, the better wrestling you will usually find" garbage. I know professional wrestling, and I've seen more matches than you could possibly know.

And John Cena is a great professional wrestler.

Would you care to back this up? I honestly want to know what makes a great professional wrestling match and what makes Cena so great. Does this mean Cena/Khali really was better than Joe/Angle? The further you get away from WWE, the less resticted the wrestlers tend to be. This leads to more improvisation, more creative dialogue betwenn the wrestlers and more "extreme" moves being used in a match. This also usually leads to wrestlers being able to move up and down through the card. For me, that makes for better wrestling.

As far as scripted matches go, Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3 was completely pre-planned with the entire match mapped out. It must suck too right because there was no improvisation? In addition, I'm still waiting on that source that said someone else scripted the match.

I've never seen Savage/Steamboat, I'll admit that much. So perhaps you have seen more wrestling than me, so what? I'll leave someone else to answer the question of whether it sucked because it was totally scripted. As for Cena/Umaga? Well, there isn't a source, you've got me there. It must have really been him that thought up taking the rope off to choke Umaga with it. What a worker!

What do you mean we'll never find out? We know. HBK has never been a proven draw. His first reign as champion was a complete disaster. Ratings and buyrates went straight down the toilet and the WWF was subjected to second-tier status. HBK is not a proven draw, unlike Cena who is a proven draw.

I mean currently, of course. But with HBK out with an injury and unwilling take the title - although I'm not certain they'd ever strip Mr. "The Champ is here to make you vomit, yo!" of the title - it's likely we'll never know.

Who cares about that? It's for entertainment purposes. It's called "working the crowd".

Actually, it's called unsuspending the crowd's state of disbelief, leading us to think "what the fuck? Get up and punch this asshole, I would."

So, it's Cena's fault his opponent don't know how to sell the move? Show me a picture of Cena's STFU where his arms cross in front of his opponents windpipe, and not around both sides of the neck.

Let's face it. If Chris Benoit did the exact same move, and applied it the exact same way, it would go from "piss-poor" to "excellent". It's only "piss-poor" because it is Cena.

That's like saying "if I was ******ed like that ******, I'd be ******ed and people would say so". If Benoit would perform such a move, he would most likely do it correctly. If, hypothetically, he didn't, no attention would be brought to it. In that way, your point is correct. However, it would still be improperly applied, would it not?

The rest is for Kasey to answer.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not entertained. Sue me.

And yet, the majority of the audience in the arena is. So, when you say that the 5 Knuckle Shuffle is "******edly pointless", that is incorrect. A fist to your face would hurt, and the lead-up is entertainment to the crowd. Thus, not pointless.

Selling the move is irrelevant, when you really stop and think about it.

You brought it up. *shrugs*

Did you even read your second sentence before you typed it? If both hands are around the neck...where do they meet? Throat. Windpipe, maybe?

The forearms are causing pressure on both sides of the neck. He clasps his hands in front of the neck, just under the chin. At no point are his hands closing off the windpipe, and thus not a choke.

See?

The fact that they still sell a sleeper as a non-choke is one of the WWE's dumb little idiosyncrasies that should be done away with. The difference in the sleeper is that it isn't sold to look like a choke. However, the STFU looks very much like choking to me.

How is a Sleeper Hold or the STFU a choke? I don't understand. Have you not seen the referee slide his hand up under a wrestler's arms to make sure it's not constricting the windpipe? I know I have. A choke is when you cut off oxygen from the outside to the lungs. A sleeper cuts off blood flow to the brain.

And, for the record, it's not just one of the "WWE's dumb little idiosyncrasies". If I'm not mistaken Samoa Joe uses a "Rear Naked Choke"....correct?

Don't worry about it. You're comparing two guys who function on acrobatics. Misterio's matches have no more "logic" or realism in them than a fight scene on Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. It's just more accepted because it's en vogue to claim RVD is a spot monkey. Lucha is spot-monkeyism when you get right down to it. It's all high spots.

*Sigh*. The difference between Mysterio and RVD is that Mysterios move have a point, and cohesion between them. Sure, he flies a lot, but that doesn't make him a "spot monkey" as it is termed these days. RVDs spots are just random spots, many times painfully obvious they are being set-up, and really do very little to contribute to the story of the match. Mysterio matches flow, transitions between spots is usually done so well, you don't even know they are coming until it's happening, and Mysterio's matches tell a story.

Completely different in how they uses their high-flying. But, that's all I'm going to say on this. Let's just talk Cena.

WWE event. Not some poorly stitched ECW asswipe that everyone knew was going to stink going in. I'm talking an actual WWE event from one of the two big shows. I apologize for not being specific, Sly.

So wait. You're telling me that on a tri-branded PPV, with every match being competed for a title, with Cena in a Fatal Four-way match in the main-event...failed because Cena was champion?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. And, it doesn't change the fact that PPV buys in 2006 were up from 2005. This is simply a fact.

Looking at Benoit's follow-up to the Wrestlemania program and the lovely saddling with a complete waste of space like Kane...let's just say I'm surprised it got the ratings it did. Edge would've been fine by me as the long-standing heel by the summer of 2005 (circumstances notwithstanding injury stuff or crap involving Matt Hardy). My choices were two other guys who are doing much better in TNA right now (and I know you know who I'm referring to). RVD just didn't get the preferential "Stone Cold" welcome back after his problems came to a head. For pete's sake, he's been in High Times. It's not like people didn't know he was on weed. The WWE commentary staff plugged his/Misterio's tandem move in the most unclever fashion imaginable. Even with some of those names like Orton, Taker, and HHH, it wouldn't matter much anyway. As I've stated in numerous other threads, with the quality of booking they do, they'd find a way to ruin just about anything.

Then, why would they take the title off someone who is successful, and making them successful, despite what you feel is poor booking? It doesn't change the fact that Cena is a better champion then anyone they have at their disposal.

If not Edge? At this point, they're screwed. And they did it to themselves. All of the potential marquee players they had to fill the void and build into credible heels for the faces to chase are out (Angle, Christian, Jericho,).

Umm, no. Christian is the only one you can say they chased out. They were going to give Angle the time off that he wanted, to get himself into shape. He chose to go to TNA. Jericho left of his own volition, and with the WWE's blessing. He wanted to pursue another medium of entertainment. And, you're avoiding the question really. You said they could do better if they pushed someone "with talent". I said who, and you can't give me anyone. Point proven.

Actually, I was stupid enough to pay for it on PPV. I also made sure to cut it out of my VHS dubbing. The crowd didn't give a rat's ass for half the match. If it wasn't for the fact that it was for THE TITLE, it might as well have been the opener. The fact is they were blown out of the water by a medicated Angle and an old HBK. Simple as that. A couple of last gimmie pops by an audience for a finisher in an otherwise pathetic attempt for a main event is NOT going to cut the mustard with me. It may do you wonders, but that isn't really my problem. No see saw back-and-forth action. No solid intrigue or great near falls. A borefest that wasn't saved by a last gasp of an ultra-predictable, cookie-cutter, good-guy ending that we'd get to see plenty more of in times to come.

Now you are changing your tune. You said that no one cared about John Cena's title win. You were very clearly wrong. Why not just admit it?

Never again. Twice was enough.

Then don't continue to claim that people didn't care when Cena won the title.

My point that I'm trying to get across to you is that HBK spent loads of time honing his craft until he got the rub. Cena just showed up as a pretty boy on the first night and they let him look good against Kurt freakin' Angle?!? Vince has a hard-on for bodybuilders who can talk. Cena is no exception.

But, what the hell does that have to do with Cena's ability to wrestle quality matches or be a big draw? I don't understand. Cena is a good wrestler, I think so, Dave Meltzer thinks so (for what that's worth) and a good number of WWE fans think so.

Since I'm lazy, calculate the matches for Michaels from 1995 on. Not so I can win any sort of argument, but because I'd actually like to know what he scores. I think you are the only person who researches more than me. Although, I do divvy up my time geeking out to comic books, movies, and music, so I do what I can, Sly.

Well, I'm going to assume 1995 on because that's when he got pushed to the main event. So, in comparison, I'll take Cena's 3 star matches from 2005 on.

HBK - 80 matches that were rated 3 star or above. 3 years for his first run 95-98, and 5 years from 2002-2007. So, 8 years total. 80 divided by 8 equals 10. HBK averages 10 matches a year that is rated three star or above.

Cena - 2005-2007. That is approximately 2 and a half years. In that time he has had 25 matches rated 3 stars or better by Meltzer. 25 divided by 2.5 equals 10. Cena averages 10 matches a year that is rated three star or above.

Again, using the only recognized authority of the star system, Cena fairs equally with Shawn Michaels.

Proper climactic build that finishes at a fever pitch? Body part work. All of the old stables of extended match work that Cena is foreign to. Look at some of the other matches that Michaels has been in that were extended. Angle? Hart? The psychology was always there and there was serious realistic intrigue to the matches. Hell, Michaels even made Sid entertaining. Let's also talk a proper build in the matches. Take for example the Cena/Umaga Last Man Standing match you revere so much. Cena can't even find the way out of the match. The crowd was deflated by the ending point of it because he didn't have the smarts to end it with the first rope choke.

First off, if you think Michaels called his matches against Hart, I would have to STRONGLY disagree with you.

Second, you are taking a LOT of liberties here. For example, how do you know it wasn't Umaga's idea to get up the first time, which required Cena to put the ring-rope STFU back on? Second of all, Cena's offense ALWAYS works the back and the head. Always. That's limb psychology. And, if we're going to say that he didn't call his match against HBK, then he certainly didn't call his match against Jericho, Angle, or HHH. So, blame them for the lack of psychology. Or quit finding every excuse in the book to explain that Cena is not a good wrestler, and come to the much simpler conclusion that he is. It's amazing all of the different ways that people want to attribute successful Cena matches, instead of looking at the most simple explanation.

Side A:
Jericho carried him
Angle carried him
HHH carried him
RVD carried him
Edge carried him
HBK carried him
Gimmick matches
Only women and children like him
Only pushed because of bodybuilder look
Etc.

Side B:
Cena is good

Which one of those explanations seems to carry more weight? The one where the stars have to basically align for everything to work out as well as it has for Cena...or the one that says Cena is good. I'm going with Side B.

Now, you're getting it.

So then, length of match is a big determinant in skill of a wrestler and in quality of a match. Are you kidding me? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? That, to be qualified as the type of guy who doesn't have to be carried you have to routinely put on 30 minute matches or longer? I'm sorry, but you're going to have to come up with something better than that.

Yes, his knee damn sure did. Michaels spent an extended period putting a "Horsemen-esque" beatdown on it. Cena promptly got up and "he-manned" his way to an illogical comeback. Over-selling the first shot was not a problem at all.

Yes it was. Do you even remember what Michaels did to make Cena go hobbling around like he got his leg shot off?

Well, just take a look at Cena's previous matches. Now if you can sit there and tell me with in all honesty that Cena had EVER put on a match that got the response THROUGHOUT that his two matches with HBK did, had the length they did (and didn't involve The friggin' Chamber) I'll rest my case on this point. I don't believe in coincidences, when it comes to quality of work, Sly. Neither should you.

This one is too easy. RVD at ONS had a BETTER response throughout, HHH at WM 22, and Umaga at Royal Rumble.

Were they as long? No, but who cares about that? Match quality isn't determined by length.

Being the champ means you wear a belt. It doesn't mean you're in charge. Do you think Batista called Undertaker's spots at Mania? I mean, he was the champ right?

And Bret Hart told Ric Flair that he was going to call his matches as the champ. More often than not, the champ is going to call the match.

The response is everything. Despite everything that Rock did...THEY LOVED HIM. Despite everything Cena does...many HATE HIM. Understand now?

No, because that is completely irrelevant to the original point. The point was, that part of what makes Cena suck is because he is failing as a face because people boo him. So, he sucks. My point is that Rock must suck, because he got cheered as a heel. So Rock sucks.

You countered with "Well, they turned Rock". Great. That's just dandy. Has nothing to do with if they suck or not, as that is a management decision. So, if Cena sucks because he can't stay over as a face, then Rock sucks because he had people wanting him to "die" when he was a face, and he had people cheer him when he was a heel. So, according to this logic, The Rock sucks.

It's not my logic, and I don't believe it, but let's be consistent about this.

Would you care to back this up? I honestly want to know what makes a great professional wrestling match and what makes Cena so great. Does this mean Cena/Khali really was better than Joe/Angle? The further you get away from WWE, the less resticted the wrestlers tend to be. This leads to more improvisation, more creative dialogue betwenn the wrestlers and more "extreme" moves being used in a match. This also usually leads to wrestlers being able to move up and down through the card. For me, that makes for better wrestling.

What do you mean would I care to back this up? What do you think the last ten pages of my posts have been?

No, Cena/Khali was not better than Joe/Angle. But Cena/HBK 2 was better than Angle/Joe 1. I think many people would agree with that. I know Kasey will, because Cena/HBK 2 is longer.

I've never seen Savage/Steamboat, I'll admit that much.

You should man. It's absolutely fantastic. Go buy the Wrestlemania 3 DVD they released. With Savage/Steamboat and Hogan/Andre, it is completely worth it.

So perhaps you have seen more wrestling than me, so what?

You brought it up. *shrugs*

I mean currently, of course. But with HBK out with an injury and unwilling take the title - although I'm not certain they'd ever strip Mr. "The Champ is here to make you vomit, yo!" of the title - it's likely we'll never know.

Well, if you are talking currently, then it is an invalid point, as HBK doesn't want the belt. So, whether he can draw more of not doesn't matter, because they can't give him the belt anyways. And, when HBK was in the prime of his life, like Cena is now, he didn't draw as well. That is a fact.

Actually, it's called unsuspending the crowd's state of disbelief, leading us to think "what the fuck? Get up and punch this asshole, I would."

As opposed to every other wrestling move that completely requires the assistance of another person? I mean, could you be any more hypocritical?

That's like saying "if I was ******ed like that ******, I'd be ******ed and people would say so". If Benoit would perform such a move, he would most likely do it correctly. If, hypothetically, he didn't, no attention would be brought to it. In that way, your point is correct. However, it would still be improperly applied, would it not?

No, it's like saying that "Well, I really don't know what the move is, but because Cena does it, it must suck, and because Cena sucks he must apply it wrong." and then when Benoit puts it on exactly the same way "Oh he is such a technical masterpiece. What do you mean you don't know what an STS is? Watch Benoit because he puts it on the way it should be". Point being, people think the move is bad because it's Cena, not because of the move or the way it is applied.

And, the move IS applied correctly and legally.

 

[robwylde90]

You guys , sly and the champ, seem to be missing the point , we say that we want cena to drop the title and you guys say oh but hes really popular so why would he drop it , since when did the so called top guy always have to be the champion? Austin was without a doubt the biggest draw in the history of the industry but i dont seem to recalll him having a ridiculosuly long title run, starnge huh? If they took the title off cena for more than 5 minutes im pretty ceratin that the conversations about him on forums like this would dry up almost instantly , hell if cena dropped the title and got into a good feud then i might actually find his matches entertaining.

 

[X]

Robwylde, that point has been addressed about forty times now by Slyfox, and he even addressed it in the post exactly above yours. Please try and read through a bit before asking questions, because you're undoubtedly about to get punked by Slyfox because the STFU IS an STS, not an STF.

You keep addressing the same points Slyfox, I'm startin to feel really bad about it lol. You just keep debating the same issues with people and everyone just goes around in a circle, yelling their opinion and not listening to anything, until we start over again. On your grave stone it shall read
"Slyfox(if that were you real name...which I hope it's not)--- He Defended John Cena Until the Day He Died" rofl

But really, when you get down to it, all of this is subjective and based on opinion. However you cannot say that other's opinions are less intelligent then your own, because that too is subjective.

I personally can't stand Cena and have yet to see a single match from him that is up to my standard of a great match. He's had some good matches, yes, but none that made you say "God damn. That was one helluva match" afterwards. That's just my opinion and take on it. And many, many people agree with me. Up to 50% (just a rough estimate) of WWE's fans agree with me and despise John Cena. So to say that one half of the crowd is right and the other is wrong is silly, because its all subjective and based on opinon.

I don't think I can argue this point any longer. My view is all that really matters to me, and mine is that John Cena is absolute drivel in the ring and that I find more excitement watching an Infomercial for soap.

 

[Slyfox696]

Robwylde, that point has been addressed about forty times now by Slyfox, and he even addressed it in the post exactly above yours. Please try and read through a bit before asking questions, because you're undoubtedly about to get punked by Slyfox because the STFU IS an STS, not an STF.

Thanks.

You keep addressing the same points Slyfox, I'm startin to feel really bad about it lol. You just keep debating the same issues with people and everyone just goes around in a circle, yelling their opinion and not listening to anything, until we start over again. On your grave stone it shall read
"Slyfox(if that were you real name...which I hope it's not)--- He Defended John Cena Until the Day He Died" rofl

Haha...Slyfox is not my real name. And, I'm used to doing this about Cena, even enjoy it. I don't enjoy having to explain the STFU thing over and over, but debating is fun.

But really, when you get down to it, all of this is subjective and based on opinion. However you cannot say that other's opinions are less intelligent then your own, because that too is subjective.

I totally agree with this, and it seems that this was that one Kaedon fellow's biggest problem. That he didn't realize that other people's opinions and points were valid as well. Of course, you can never admit that, but I understand it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

You must never, under any circumstances, concede that your opponent has a valid point. I, however, am about to do just that. Slyfox, while I - and many, many other fans - will never like Cena in the slightest, you have helped clarify why some do, with the exception of just swallowing whatever the WWE tries to feed us. Thanks, I guess. You've made Cena every so slighty easier to stumach. although I still want to vomit every time I see him. I'll stick to TNA's crappy gimmicks, thank you very much! Ooooh, it's Black Machismo everyone. Awesome.

 

[Shocky]

Ha, poor slyfox, most people will only know you as the defender of Cenadom everywhere, but if anyone actually bothered to read your post outside this thread, they would know so much more.

Like most have said, it's merely subjective when it comes to John Cena. I don't like his matches myself, but I don't like brawler matches, that's just me. I've spoiled myself with watching Jericho, Benoit, Angle, and Lesnar the last 5 years mostly, and thats what I enjoy. I like suplexes, submission holds and that mat wrestling. I could probably be content watching a DVD of nothing but Angle vs. Benoit, that's just me though.

I get why some people like Cena. He has the look. I just don't like his style. I can't get over the fact that he is 6'2", and 240 pounds, yet he wrestles like some on 8 inches taller then him, that's my big problem. This might be that I'm 6'4" and 240, and maybe I just expect more out of someone my size.

In actuality, and people won't admit this because they can't, if Cena was around 8 years ago, he would have been McMahon's Corporate Champion instead of the Rock. Here you have a guy that is clean shaven, and just would have had that look to fill that role. You know it would have happened if he was ten years younger.

Like I said, anyone with a two year title reign is going to get old, no matter who you are. We all know that eventually Cena is going to get turned heel, and have another long title run. Everyone goes heel after their big push, Austin, Hogan, the Rock, they all do.

The problem with the 2 year title reign is this though. Who the hell else is going to be champion right now on Raw, no one. Now after the draft, we'll probably have more arguments. Right now though, Cena is the only choice by default.

 

[goleafsgo23]

The problem with the 2 year title reign is this though. Who the hell else is going to be champion right now on Raw, no one. Now after the draft, we'll probably have more arguments. Right now though, Cena is the only choice by default.

Thank you, it's about time someone realized that.

Shockmaster is right, I too have spoiled myself with the likes of Benoit, Angle, Jericho and such (but I have allowed myself to keep my tastes open which is why I can tolerate a Jeff Hardy or an RVD match), but seriously, if you want something quality like that, go watch the UFC or Pride. WWE's technical wrestlers make the veteran viewers entertained, however they will put the the kiddies that are in the crowd to sleep. I pointed out before that the WWE's target are now the minor audience. This is why DX's antics weren't as raunchy as the Attitude era, and this is why we don't see anyone get hit by a car, or attacked at a hospital anymore, or why ECW isn't ECW. Because the kids love him, he is the champion.

As for Cena's talent, he doesn't suck. He isn't the best wrestler, and he is not up to par with the likes of Hart, Benoit or Jericho, but he shouldn't deserve the "You can't wrestle" chants or the "he can't wrestle" comments that go around. Cena can wrestle, and he had a way bigger move set way back when. But because of Vince's epiphany that John Cena can draw in the $$$, he became Hulk Hogan (as we all know). Cena's moveset has been cut down to what it is now (like Hogan, and when he wrestled in Japan he actually had technical wrestling moves), and he simply does not have the time to train or do anything because of his schedule with the belt. If Cena was so bad at wrestling, he wouldn't be in the WWE, or noticed by the scouts in the first place. (If you relate back to when Scotty 2 Hotty got fired, management made notes that his in ring ability has become sloppy.) If Cena really wrestled the way he does now, management would not have even looked at this guy.

This is why Cena needs to drop the belt, and have another rising star. With that, I can almost promise that he will become a better entertainer when he has time to train and when the Hogan treatment is released off of him.

 

[Kasey]

And yet, the majority of the audience in the arena is. So, when you say that the 5 Knuckle Shuffle is "******edly pointless", that is incorrect. A fist to your face would hurt, and the lead-up is entertainment to the crowd. Thus, not pointless.

Yes, SOME of them are entertained. Obviously the ones who chant against Cena aren't really digging it, now are they? So to me...it is still ******edly pointless because of the time it takes to lay it down. Not to mention how weak the actual fist drop portion of the move looks. Hey, I suppose if the payoff was good enough, I'd be a little more lenient on excusing the cheesy theatric aspect of it...but I'm not...so I won't.

The forearms are causing pressure on both sides of the neck. He clasps his hands in front of the neck, just under the chin. At no point are his hands closing off the windpipe, and thus not a choke.




See?

Yes, I do see.

How is a Sleeper Hold or the STFU a choke? I don't understand. Have you not seen the referee slide his hand up under a wrestler's arms to make sure it's not constricting the windpipe? I know I have. A choke is when you cut off oxygen from the outside to the lungs. A sleeper cuts off blood flow to the brain.

Look at any properly applied rear naked choke in MMA. When it is released there is a rush of blood to the head, is there not? That looks like a constriction of blood to the brain if I've ever seen one. I'm well versed in the check of the carotid artery that a referee does. It's still hokey because the carotid pulse is less than an inch (if even that) from the windpipe. Check your pulse sometime to see what I'm talking about. Press hard on it and then see how well you breathe.

And, for the record, it's not just one of the "WWE's dumb little idiosyncrasies". If I'm not mistaken Samoa Joe uses a "Rear Naked Choke"....correct?

At what point did I mention anything or anyone revolving around someone who is or has competed in TNA/ROH/Zero-One? WWE was the topic at hand, specifically their stance on the illustrious sleeper hold.

So wait. You're telling me that on a tri-branded PPV, with every match being competed for a title, with Cena in a Fatal Four-way match in the main-event...failed because Cena was champion?

I was referring to this year's Backlash PPV. Check the WZ front page for the listing about it. Worst PPV numbers since 2004. Cena's only part of the reason. A big part. But only part.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. And, it doesn't change the fact that PPV buys in 2006 were up from 2005. This is simply a fact.

Not much of an increase. And like we've already discussed (and because it's widely known) Wrestlemania is the one saving grace of their PPV revenue stream.

Then, why would they take the title off someone who is successful, and making them successful, despite what you feel is poor booking? It doesn't change the fact that Cena is a better champion then anyone they have at their disposal.

Cena is the "best at their disposal" because he's the only one who's been booked through the roof in such a fashion. They haven't sunk shit for effort into building any other stars for quite some time with anything remotely resembling the fervor they have with Cena. Haven't you noticed that? This is the same reason they have to keep bringing guys like Foley back (even again tonight) and it's one of the reasons that Wrestlemania had to have two longstanding vets in the top spot to carry the greenhorns. NO ONE has gotten that kind of leg up from the booking staff. Every key win against a dominant heel was fed to Cena. See, the deal is, after him being pushed down the throats of the fanbase, a large chunk just gave up and accepted it. I'm not in that category because I KNOW they can do better. I don't sit here and settle for a consolation champion and start talking him up to high heaven because the booking staff has been notorious for painting themselves into corners by not building new stars properly, amongst other things. If I feel he's shit (and a large chunk of the fanbase on tonight's 3-hour Raw agreed with me...despite audio alterations to the contrary during the match with Edge)...I'm gonna say it.

Umm, no. Christian is the only one you can say they chased out. They were going to give Angle the time off that he wanted, to get himself into shape. He chose to go to TNA. Jericho left of his own volition, and with the WWE's blessing. He wanted to pursue another medium of entertainment. And, you're avoiding the question really. You said they could do better if they pushed someone "with talent". I said who, and you can't give me anyone. Point proven.

You misread what I wrote. They didn't chase them out, my comment was in regards to having someone for Cena to chase. While we're at it, though, they booked them into destitute and let Hulk Hogan II run right over them...completely negating any sort of esteem or credibility from them. Jericho had been in that boat with the company for quite some time. He went from being the first Undisputed Champion and wrestling classics like his Summerslam match with Rock or his Mania match with Michaels years back to being relegated to the midcard trying to get Shelton over on the mic. Then they feed him to Cena on his way out the door. Hell, if I was Jericho (still in his prime), I know I'd love the way they handled me and would be raring to stay, wouldn't you, Sly? Yeah, they didn't boot Jericho out...they also didn't roll out the "John Cena Red Carpet" for him either. As for Angle, they wanted him to "rehab on the road" (because that's always the best thing for a drug addict conjoined to painkillers until they become toxic and elicit the reverse effect) and weren't going to give him anymore of a push then they were to Jericho at that point. Angle HATED ECW for a long time...and that's where they sent him. He only received his short title push on Smackdown because Batista tore his own triceps by being an idiot. The options are limited at present. They weren't a couple of years ago. Benoit still had some sort of cred, Michaels could've been used in a top spot capacity as a heel for Cena to chase for a time, and they could've actually spent time pushing Edge or Orton to fill the void in some sort of meaningful fashion that always didn't revolve around Cena in the title scene.

Now you are changing your tune. You said that no one cared about John Cena's title win. You were very clearly wrong. Why not just admit it?

In the end...they didn't care. If they were so into it, then chances are they would've remained hot throughout the match, but that wasn't the case. Like I said...gimmie pops for an easily callable finish that was lackluster, to say the least. Everyone else was still in awe of the real main event that night.

Then don't continue to claim that people didn't care when Cena won the title.

Actually, they didn't care as his program faltered in the end. He was, for all intents and purposes, a lemon. So I guess you're right that they cared...they cared that someone else take the belt and spare them anymore misery. Yeah...mission accomplished for the uber-babyface.

But, what the hell does that have to do with Cena's ability to wrestle quality matches or be a big draw? I don't understand. Cena is a good wrestler, I think so, Dave Meltzer thinks so (for what that's worth) and a good number of WWE fans think so.

That's just it. He can't wrestle quality matches on his own or stay over like he's supposed to as the token babyface. If this was the WWE's intention, they wouldn't have altered the crowd response during Raw tonight...AGAIN. Cena is a bland brawler that has never entertained me (unless someone on that list was working with him). No intrigue. Just a set of some of the slowest, worst executed moves in history with the same ending over and over. So much for the champ calling his spots, eh? Cena is also not this huge draw. If he was this huge, then the overall fanbase of wrestling as a whole would be greater than it is. The TV ratings don't lie as they've surged to astronomical levels, right? They haven't garnered some new fresh audience and brought WWE back to the mainstream like you'd have me believe. They're still struggling to entertain the leftovers from the Attitude Era fallout that they pissed away through gross mismanagement.

Well, I'm going to assume 1995 on because that's when he got pushed to the main event. So, in comparison, I'll take Cena's 3 star matches from 2005 on.

HBK - 80 matches that were rated 3 star or above. 3 years for his first run 95-98, and 5 years from 2002-2007. So, 8 years total. 80 divided by 8 equals 10. HBK averages 10 matches a year that is rated three star or above.

Cena - 2005-2007. That is approximately 2 and a half years. In that time he has had 25 matches rated 3 stars or better by Meltzer. 25 divided by 2.5 equals 10. Cena averages 10 matches a year that is rated three star or above.

I can at least live with the tie now that the numbers aren't completely skewered from jumpstreet. Thanks for taking the time to dig that stuff up.

First off, if you think Michaels called his matches against Hart, I would have to STRONGLY disagree with you.

Pay attention to HBK's matches with Angle. Almost note for note, the same setup was used in the first half of the match as was used in Anaheim in 1996 when HBK took on The Hitman. Michaels mat wrestles and focuses around working the headlock and headscissors on the ground. Their matches were like watching a less draw-out version of the Iron Man match. But who knows who really calls them? You seemed to think it was always the champ, right?

Second, you are taking a LOT of liberties here. For example, how do you know it wasn't Umaga's idea to get up the first time, which required Cena to put the ring-rope STFU back on? Second of all, Cena's offense ALWAYS works the back and the head. Always. That's limb psychology. And, if we're going to say that he didn't call his match against HBK, then he certainly didn't call his match against Jericho, Angle, or HHH. So, blame them for the lack of psychology. Or quit finding every excuse in the book to explain that Cena is not a good wrestler, and come to the much simpler conclusion that he is. It's amazing all of the different ways that people want to attribute successful Cena matches, instead of looking at the most simple explanation.

Well, I thought that the champ always calls the spots right? I'm just going with what you suggested. Limb psychology involves the limbs. Not the torso. You could easily say that any brawler who performs only slams is good at "limb psychology" but that isn't the case. If that was indeed the case...then Kane would be in the same league as Bret Hart.

Side A:
Jericho carried him
Angle carried him
HHH carried him
RVD carried him
Edge carried him
HBK carried him
Gimmick matches
Only women and children like him
Only pushed because of bodybuilder look
Etc.

Side B:
Cena is good

Which one of those explanations seems to carry more weight? The one where the stars have to basically align for everything to work out as well as it has for Cena...or the one that says Cena is good. I'm going with Side B.

Well, given the laundry list of names that you ran off, I'm still sticking with Side A, captain. Why? Each one of those guys has more cred in terms of quality matches they've put on with numerous others. Meanwhile, Cena is only known for being good in matches with...them. That's the reason they were saddled against him. They made him look good. I'll stack their credentials and matches up against Cena's any day of the week...however, guilt by association and all, so believe what you want.

So then, length of match is a big determinant in skill of a wrestler and in quality of a match. Are you kidding me? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? That, to be qualified as the type of guy who doesn't have to be carried you have to routinely put on 30 minute matches or longer? I'm sorry, but you're going to have to come up with something better than that.

It's a big factor in the ability of a wrestler to main event. Not the prime one...but one of them. A wrestler who can carry a crowd for thirty minutes is obviously the better skilled combatant than the guy who lives at fifteen minutes or under more often than not out of necessity. Tell me...who do you think is better equipped as a worker? A guy like say, Bret Hart who can wrestle for ages in the ring and keep the fans interested...or one of the WWE's new one-trick ponies like Batista or Cena who couldn't get past twenty minutes unless someone spoonfed him every little morsel of the layout (thank you Taker and HBK)?

Yes it was. Do you even remember what Michaels did to make Cena go hobbling around like he got his leg shot off?

Fine. See it your way, I'll see it mine. I just believe that completely no-selling a five minute beating is better than spending a few seconds grossly overselling a one or two-move hit. Everyone has their preferences. You see moutains where I see molehills and vice versa.

This one is too easy. RVD at ONS had a BETTER response throughout, HHH at WM 22, and Umaga at Royal Rumble.

ONS was RVD-centric. They were there to see him...not Cena (hence the "same old shit" chants). I beg to differ on the response end of things, but it's all in what you hear, I guess.

Were they as long? No, but who cares about that? Match quality isn't determined by length.

Actually, length plays a great deal in terms of how good a match can be. You may be happy with the Monday Night Raw ten-minute main event style of work that became prevalent over the last decade...but when I see a real main eventer, he's going to earn his money and take me on a ride for a while. The fact is, with HBK taking the reins, they had a phenomenal response for their encounters and were able to entertain the crowd for even longer (despite Cena's Wrestlemania blunder). Superior performances any way you cut it.

And Bret Hart told Ric Flair that he was going to call his matches as the champ. More often than not, the champ is going to call the match.

I'm well versed in Flair being "dressed down" in front of a group of guys including Scott Hall. Did you happen to see how in charge the champ Batista was this year after he lost? How about when Taker promptly suggested that Robinson "get him the fuck out of here." Sounds like the champ always calls the shots, right?

No, because that is completely irrelevant to the original point. The point was, that part of what makes Cena suck is because he is failing as a face because people boo him. So, he sucks. My point is that Rock must suck, because he got cheered as a heel. So Rock sucks.

You countered with "Well, they turned Rock". Great. That's just dandy. Has nothing to do with if they suck or not, as that is a management decision. So, if Cena sucks because he can't stay over as a face, then Rock sucks because he had people wanting him to "die" when he was a face, and he had people cheer him when he was a heel. So, according to this logic, The Rock sucks.

It's not my logic, and I don't believe it, but let's be consistent about this.

The consistency is there. Rock was loved for what he did because he was an anti-hero, whereas Cena is a token babyface. Cena's been spending two years trying to get over with everyone and we've yet to see that come to pass. Besides, it's a hell of a lot easier to make everyone hate you as a wrestler than it is for them to love you. Wouldn't you agree?

No, Cena/Khali was not better than Joe/Angle. But Cena/HBK 2 was better than Angle/Joe 1. I think many people would agree with that. I know Kasey will, because Cena/HBK 2 is longer.

Actually, I did enjoy the Cena/HBK 2 match better than Angle/Joe 1. Length had nothing to do with it. Angle/Joe 1 didn't have near the amount of crispness that the Raw counterpart did and was rather lackluster compared to what I was expecting...and to what they delivered in the other encounters. Please don't assume what I do and don't like without at least asking me, man. That Raw match impressed the hell out of me in the end. But HBK had to be involved, didn't he?

 

[Slyfox696]

Yes, I do see.

Even in that pic, his upper forearm is under the chin, not around the windpipe.

Not much of an increase. And like we've already discussed (and because it's widely known) Wrestlemania is the one saving grace of their PPV revenue stream.

It was actually fairly substantial. And considering Wrestlemania 22 did worse buys than 21, and they had December to Dismember, obviously the other shows did significantly better than their counterparts from the year before.

They haven't sunk shit for effort into building any other stars for quite some time with anything remotely resembling the fervor they have with Cena.

This is untrue. They've put a lot of effort into new stars. They just had to start from scratch with most of them. No, they haven't got the Cena treatment, but go down the roster and see how many of the younger stars were working five years ago.

Hell, if I was Jericho (still in his prime), I know I'd love the way they handled me and would be raring to stay, wouldn't you, Sly? Yeah, they didn't boot Jericho out...they also didn't roll out the "John Cena Red Carpet" for him either.

The only thing that ever screwed Jericho over was the Triple H/Stephanie feud going into Wrestlemania 18. And, why would they roll out the red carpet for him? When has he proven that he's worthy of it, from the business end? Jericho understands the business. He knows that when guys leave, they do the job on the way out. That's what he did to Cena.

The options are limited at present. They weren't a couple of years

When Cena was on top, the options were just as, if not more, limited than they are now. Batista, JBL, Booker, Rey, Benoit, Angle were all on Smackdown. They were saving the HHH match for WM. HBK was in a feud with Hogan, and then McMahon. Who else is left? They had ZERO undercard, due to so many guys leaving.

In the end...they didn't care. If they were so into it, then chances are they would've remained hot throughout the match, but that wasn't the case. Like I said...gimmie pops for an easily callable finish that was lackluster, to say the least. Everyone else was still in awe of the real main event that night.

You really need to watch the match. The crowd popped big for the FU, popped big for the win, and popped big for Cena celebrating. They popped big for Cena's entrance. Don't let your Cena hate blind you.

Cena is also not this huge draw. If he was this huge, then the overall fanbase of wrestling as a whole would be greater than it is. The TV ratings don't lie as they've surged to astronomical levels, right? They haven't garnered some new fresh audience and brought WWE back to the mainstream like you'd have me believe. They're still struggling to entertain the leftovers from the Attitude Era fallout that they pissed away through gross mismanagement.

You don't seem to be understanding. Cena doesn't compare on the level of drawing that Hogan, Austin or Rock was. No argument. But, that's not the point. He is THE biggest draw in the company right now. That is the point. There are a lot of factors that go into why wrestling doesn't do as well numbers-wise now as they did back in 2000.

I can at least live with the tie now that the numbers aren't completely skewered from jumpstreet. Thanks for taking the time to dig that stuff up.

And, what do these numbers tell you? Considering you were the one who brought up "5 star" matches, what should that tell you? Especially since Meltzer doesn't seem to like anyone not named Joe, Flair, Hart or have a Japanese last name.

Limb psychology involves the limbs. Not the torso.

Ok, then he uses torso psychology. And considering the back and the head are probably as important to a fighter as any part of a body, then he is smart in doing so. The point is that his moves target the parts of the body that he hurts with his finishers.

Well, given the laundry list of names that you ran off, I'm still sticking with Side A, captain. Why? Each one of those guys has more cred in terms of quality matches they've put on with numerous others.

Like who? Didn't we already agree that good wrestlers only have good matches with other good wrestlers? Why are you changing that now?

Meanwhile, Cena is only known for being good in matches with...them. That's the reason they were saddled against him. They made him look good. I'll stack their credentials and matches up against Cena's any day of the week...however, guilt by association and all, so believe what you want.

This is just ridiculous. Why is it that you'd rather believe that everything else is to be credited, and not Cena? Is your hate really that blind?

It's a big factor in the ability of a wrestler to main event.

No it isn't. Drawing/moneymaking (or the potential to), and being on good terms with the boss are the biggest factors to becoming a main-event. Everything else is secondary. It's like that everywhere, including promotions like Ring of Honor.

ONS was RVD-centric. They were there to see him...not Cena (hence the "same old shit" chants).

You just contradicted yourself. If they were there to see RVD and not Cena why were so many chants directed at Cena? How come I can point out multiple instances of the crowd jeering Cena? How come there was a big sign that said "If Cena wins, we riot"? They weren't there for RVD, they were there for Cena. Any insistence otherwise is ridiculous.

Actually, length plays a great deal in terms of how good a match can be.

Only at a certain point. Good matches can be 8 minutes, although not likely. But, once you get around the 15-20 minute mark, then that is MORE than enough time to put on a great match. And, Cena does that routinely, even with piss-poor workers.

The consistency is there. Rock was loved for what he did because he was an anti-hero, whereas Cena is a token babyface. Cena's been spending two years trying to get over with everyone and we've yet to see that come to pass. Besides, it's a hell of a lot easier to make everyone hate you as a wrestler than it is for them to love you. Wouldn't you agree?

I can't help but notice you deflecting attention from what I said.

If Cena sucks because fans boo him as a face, then Rock must suck because fans booed him as a face, and cheered him as a heel. This is fact. Rock was booed as a face (couple of different times actually), and was cheered as a heel. According to this logic, he sucks.

But HBK had to be involved, didn't he?

How many HBK matches in the past two years have been as of high quality as his match with Cena? 1? Kurt Angle?

 

[X]

The only thing that ever screwed Jericho over was the Triple H/Stephanie feud going into Wrestlemania 18. And, why would they roll out the red carpet for him? When has he proven that he's worthy of it, from the business end? Jericho understands the business. He knows that when guys leave, they do the job on the way out. That's what he did to Cena.

I'd have to strongly disagree Slyfox. How is Chris Jericho not a draw? He was easily one of the most popular faces ever and easily one of the most hated heels ever. After he won the Undisputed Title people who normally love wrestlers despite their face/heel alignment literally wanted to physically hurt Chris Jericho. That's how annoying he was. People couldn't WAIT until WM 18 when it was all but a guarantee that Jericho would get his ass kicked. Jericho IS a proven draw, without a doubt. If you're going to say he isn't, then who is? John Cena, The Rock, Hogan, Austin and thats it? Pretty short list don't you think? Jericho was obviously a big enough draw to make it to the main event scene for years wasn't he? Didn't you say that people get into the main event because of the business end of it? WWF was still red hot when he was on top and continued to be, and didn't start going down until after he lost his title (I'm not saying that had anything to do with it), but I mean obviously Jericho was a draw. Besides, all the years of hard work he's done in the ring, he fuckin' deserved that spot more then any half-assed performer like Cena does.

No it isn't. Drawing/moneymaking (or the potential to), and being on good terms with the boss are the biggest factors to becoming a main-event. Everything else is secondary. It's like that everywhere, including promotions like Ring of Honor.

See what I mean? Obviously Jericho had enough of a drawing power to be elevated to one of the top company spots for years on end. And I'd also have to strongly disagree that every promotion puts the bigger draws in the main event, especially a company like ROH. ROH puts the best in ring performers in the main event. I suppose you could say for the ROH audience though that the biggest drawing guy is the one who's got the best in-ring skills, because thats entirely what ROH is about---not storylines, not gimmicks, pure and straight in ring performance.

You just contradicted yourself. If they were there to see RVD and not Cena why were so many chants directed at Cena? How come I can point out multiple instances of the crowd jeering Cena? How come there was a big sign that said "If Cena wins, we riot"? They weren't there for RVD, they were there for Cena. Any insistence otherwise is ridiculous.

That's absolute bullshit and simply ludicrous to even say. Are you honestly trying to tell me that the ECW fans wanted to see Cena wrestle? They would've celebrated and had a field day if Cena got in a fuckin car accident and died on the way there! Seriously, that's how much they wanted to see him wrestle. They were there for one thing and one thing only---ECW, or what it used to be. Those were the old school ECW fans, and they came there for the great wrestling th at ECW constantly produced for them---they were absolutely NOT there to see Cena. Every single person there would still have been there if John Cena wasn't on the card. They were there for one thing and thats ECW, and to suggest otherwise is ridiculious.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'd have to strongly disagree Slyfox. How is Chris Jericho not a draw?...Jericho IS a proven draw, without a doubt....Jericho was obviously a big enough draw to make it to the main event scene for years wasn't he?

Then explain to me why he had one run with the title? I mean, he's a fantastic worker, charismatic, entertaining, and can work a mic. I've never heard of any beef between him and the WWF/E. What other reason could there possibly be? I honestly don't have any numbers (because wrestling tapered off so much afterwards, it is hard to know who/what was the cause), but what else could possibly explain it?

If you're going to say he isn't, then who is? John Cena, The Rock, Hogan, Austin and thats it?

I wouldn't put Cena in that elite company.

I suppose you could say for the ROH audience though that the biggest drawing guy is the one who's got the best in-ring skills

Exactly. Samoa Joe was the champ because that is what ROH fans wanted to see. ROH fans think that a certain kind of wrestling is best, and so they want to see that. So, a wrestler who wrestles that way in ROH, draws. Which is why he was champion.

That's absolute bullshit and simply ludicrous to even say. Are you honestly trying to tell me that the ECW fans wanted to see Cena wrestle?

The ECW fans wanted to jeer Cena with everything they had. They cared less about the ECW original in RVD than they did about Cena. They were there because they wanted to be the show, and they wanted to show the world what they thought of Cena. And, Cena played them like a fiddle. He got them more riled up than they already were. The crowd response was hot in that match all the way through, not because of RVD, but because of Cena.

Every single person there would still have been there if John Cena wasn't on the card.

They still would have been there if RVD wasn't on the card.

They were there for one thing and thats ECW, and to suggest otherwise is ridiculious.

We were discussing why the match was hotter all the way through than was the HBK/Cena match.

 

[Shocky]

On the Chris Jericho situation, I think that comes from him and Triple H. I can't find you any links now, because they are seven years old, but I remember all sorts of stories coming out about Triple H trying to hold Jericho back, as a favor to Kevin Nash. I think the story goes that Nash and Jericho had real life beef backstage in WCW, most likely about Jericho being held back. Jericho jumps ship, Nash puts in a call to his buddy. Triple H feuds with Jericho in 2000, coming out on top. And I think the only reason he was in the Main Event of WM 18 was the revenge factor for Triple H's leg injury in the storyline. What better way then Triple H to exercise his injury demon by beating the man that put him on the shelf.

Anyways, it's one of those wrestling rumors, I don't know how much truth there is to it. Jericho is a good worker, so he wasn't going to be buried, but Triple H was going to make damn sure he wasn't going to be champ forever. And I guess you can say he won 3 world titles, kinda. 1 WCW Title from the Rock, then the Undisputed Championship, which he won 2 world titles in one night.

So hopefully that answered that. Anyways, back to the Cena conversation...

 

[Kasey]

Even in that pic, his upper forearm is under the chin, not around the windpipe.

See what you want.

It was actually fairly substantial. And considering Wrestlemania 22 did worse buys than 21, and they had December to Dismember, obviously the other shows did significantly better than their counterparts from the year before.

No, they didn't really. Mania, of course, did a hell of a better chunk of business this year, but with all the cards on the table and two perennial superstars in the title matches, of course people were going to buy. But on the whole, the company either treaded water or lost ground most of the time last year. NYR was down in 2006. Vengeance was also down. Armageddon was also down. As far as the other major two? Survivor Series and Summerslam only had a cumulative increase of .3 from 2005...and these were loaded shows that had both brands featured. Just this year, even the Rumble was down, as was Backlash (worst numbers for a non-"big four" in three years). The correlation with all these events? Cena was main eventing.

No, they haven't got the Cena treatment, but go down the roster and see how many of the younger stars were working five years ago.

Thank you, this was what I was pointing out. My other point is that they've had guys who've been over for years and haven't been used to Cena's level. RVD and Christian were two of the prime ones. Christian was Mr. Midcard forever after his tag split, and he ended up getting himself so over that he made Cena look as useless as he actually is on their first promo-off by uttering one simple line. RVD had been over since day one with little to no assistance, yet he was also kept jerking the curtain until they needed representative for the ECW relaunch (and even that took nearly six years). My main issue is that Cena has been bled to death for nearly three years...and it's still not working. They keep swimming upstream with this stuff, while overlooking others that have gotten massive pops without the front office having to bend over backwards to get any response.

The only thing that ever screwed Jericho over was the Triple H/Stephanie feud going into Wrestlemania 18. And, why would they roll out the red carpet for him? When has he proven that he's worthy of it, from the business end? Jericho understands the business. He knows that when guys leave, they do the job on the way out. That's what he did to Cena.

How do you prove that you're worth it anymore than some of the classics he's had in the company...with crappy storyline support I might add (Trish Stratus Love Triangle?)? Classics with The Rock, HBK, Benoit, Angle, etc, etc, etc. I wouldn't dispute having to do the job on the way out...but I'm just saying that should I have been in Jericho's position (another star who got himself over) and had to do the clean job to a guy who can't lace your boots...I wouldn't be raring to return anytime soon. It was the last straw after a few years of them not spending the time nor the intelligence properly utilizing a performer who's been over since he was a midcard dude back in Atlanta.

When Cena was on top, the options were just as, if not more, limited than they are now. Batista, JBL, Booker, Rey, Benoit, Angle were all on Smackdown. They were saving the HHH match for WM. HBK was in a feud with Hogan, and then McMahon. Who else is left? They had ZERO undercard, due to so many guys leaving.

What did they just do to fix their mistakes along these same lines this past Monday? DRAFT. Saving the HHH match was fine. I'm okay with that. However, the fact they even did a HBK/Hogan match was stupid (and resulted in a classic worthy of praise ). They had zero undercard because they never booked it intelligently. This is why the belts had zero presence (and in a lot of cases still don't). They sunk all the effort into Cena and didn't stop to make sure they had any outs because no one was even remotely made to look like they could touch him in a clean win. Zero intrigue. Just like now. You already know who's going to win the match. It's like Hulk Hogan from 1984-1995...just without the flexing, Rick Derringer music, and skullet-mullet.

You really need to watch the match. The crowd popped big for the FU, popped big for the win, and popped big for Cena celebrating. They popped big for Cena's entrance. Don't let your Cena hate blind you.

Too little, too late. ANY main eventer holding the title should be in control from start to finish. HE damn sure wasn't. And being blind has nothing to do with LISTENING to the crowd response throughout the major portion of the match. They kept waiting for it to get good. Too bad it didn't. The simple fact is that Cena and JBL were outclassed by two broken-down old vets who delivered the goods they couldn't.

You don't seem to be understanding. Cena doesn't compare on the level of drawing that Hogan, Austin or Rock was. No argument. But, that's not the point. He is THE biggest draw in the company right now. That is the point. There are a lot of factors that go into why wrestling doesn't do as well numbers-wise now as they did back in 2000.

Great. He's the biggest draw in a stagnant company that, with the exception of Wrestlemania hasn't had a drastic buyrate shift into the black since Bill Clinton was still running the country. It's like being the smartest kid with a mental handicap. I understand there are a lot of factors. Cena is a prime one. The flag-bearer of the company is the one who determines business (at least that's how I figure you'd see it...maybe I'm mistaken). He's been running at the top spot for just shy of a few years now, and cumulatively they're still running in circles, business-wise. Even this past mega 3-hour Raw still didn't break a four. A FOUR for pete's sake! What this tells you is that their current plan isn't a renowned success. It's stagnation at it's best.

And, what do these numbers tell you? Considering you were the one who brought up "5 star" matches, what should that tell you? Especially since Meltzer doesn't seem to like anyone not named Joe, Flair, Hart or have a Japanese last name.

Meltzer remains neutral according to the ratings. And my initial post way back was a simple question: How many FIVE-STAR matches has either guy had? Not okay matches that pulled threes or so...but FIVE-STAR?

Like who? Didn't we already agree that good wrestlers only have good matches with other good wrestlers? Why are you changing that now?

The list you gave in one of your last posts.

Sure. But there is also a difference between someone like Cena who didn't even carry his first title win in a truly controlling fashion audience-wise against a shlep in JBL that even Rey Misterio could draw a good match response from and the list you gave that has many more stars I've been WAY more entertained by over the years on a much more consistent basis. With less predictability most times, I might add. Some wrestlers are superior at carrying other wrestlers. Cena doesn't fall into that category. He can obviously have good matches when someone is in there that is notorious for having them.

This is just ridiculous. Why is it that you'd rather believe that everything else is to be credited, and not Cena? Is your hate really that blind?

My hate isn't "blind" at all. I still have UPW DVDs and have sat through OVW matches, all the way through his boring Prototype transfer to WWF and the dawn of his hip-hop gimmick. He's doing the same old shtick he always did. The difference is that they substituted the cast of characters so that he'd look good and they've changed his wardrobe and beefed up the entrances. It's called booking around your weaknesses. It's what they did in the mid-1990s with Bret Hart as champion...just in reverse.

No it isn't. Drawing/moneymaking (or the potential to), and being on good terms with the boss are the biggest factors to becoming a main-event. Everything else is secondary. It's like that everywhere, including promotions like Ring of Honor.

Well, I'm sure the longer encounters that guys like Flair, Steamboat, Hart, HHH, HBK, and once upon a time Hogan would say otherwise. As for the comment about nepotism? Now you're getting somewhere in regards to Vince's latest pet. Whoever kisses ass or humps Vince's daughter gets the rub these days, typically.

You just contradicted yourself. If they were there to see RVD and not Cena why were so many chants directed at Cena? How come I can point out multiple instances of the crowd jeering Cena? How come there was a big sign that said "If Cena wins, we riot"? They weren't there for RVD, they were there for Cena. Any insistence otherwise is ridiculous.

Well, I'm sure you can poll the average legit ECW fan on whether they'd like to watch a match involving Cena for the title at their own PPV, or whether they'd rather it be RVD and someone else they'd rather see in the ring across from him. Hating someone for being a good heel and loathing them because you feel they have no talent whatsoever are two separate deals, my man. Hence the purpose of the chants. And Cena tried his damndest to get over with them by adding in extra moves that he'd never use in a hundred Raw episodes. How come that is? BECAUSE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE GOOD GUY. If his intended reaction was to just be hated from the get-go, why would he do something like that? At first I thought: "Well, Kase, maybe, just maybe this was the intended reaction and all, even after the fact." However, I maintained staunch skepticism later on because it was more of the same ******ed booking the last time ECW went to The Manhattan Center and one of the brainy individuals in the front office thought Batista/Show would be a solid main event to supply there. The fact is, the front office was clueless and can't control an ECW crowd because they don't like the WWE's "superstars." That's why they no longer go there. They figured that John boy would walk right in and they'd love him. Pretty much the polar opposite of what happened because, unlike the major arenas, you can't cover the crowd noise in a smaller venue.

How many HBK matches in the past two years have been as of high quality as his match with Cena? 1? Kurt Angle?

Well, yes considering they gave Michaels all the best guys to work with, right? We all know that Vince McMahon and The Spirit Squad are the elite when it comes to carrying a match. Michaels still got great responses throughout these crap feuds (even when burying Vince's head in Wight's fat ass), but that doesn't really matter much in the end. After all, Cena had Edge to fall back on for a portion of the year. Look, man. Cena isn't the worst wrestler ever, by far. However, he's not who I'd EVER choose as the top guy in any company. At best, I see him as having the ability to be a good tag-team wrestler, but as a main eventer? Hell no. In the last five years, there are many more I would've pushed ahead of him. He had a simple trendy gimmick that got him over initially. After a large portion of the audience realized that he wasn't all they built him up to be? They turned on him.

 

[Slyfox696]

No, they didn't really. Mania, of course, did a hell of a better chunk of business this year, but with all the cards on the table and two perennial superstars in the title matches, of course people were going to buy. But on the whole, the company either treaded water or lost ground most of the time last year. NYR was down in 2006. Vengeance was also down. Armageddon was also down. As far as the other major two? Survivor Series and Summerslam only had a cumulative increase of .3 from 2005...and these were loaded shows that had both brands featured. Just this year, even the Rumble was down, as was Backlash (worst numbers for a non-"big four" in three years). The correlation with all these events? Cena was main eventing.

Average PPV buy of 2005 - 377,200
Average PPV buy of 2006 - 390,068

http://corporate.wwe.com/documents/YET200610-K.pdf

Wrestlemania 2005 buyrate - 2.46
Wrestlemania 2006 buyrate - 2.33

So, the average PPV buy of 2006 was BETTER than 2005, DESPITE a worse Wrestlemania buyrate. So, the WWE experienced growth in the PPV market in 2006. But wait, let's look how the Smackdown PPVs did without Cena in 2006 (we already know that December to Dismember lowered the average buyrate immensely).

Smackdown PPVs of which Cena was not apart in 2006:
No Way Out: 2005 - .59
2006 - .56

Judgement Day: 2005 - .66
2006 - .63

Great American Bash: 2005 - .58
2006 - .58

No Mercy: 2005 - .55
2006 - .49

source: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfppvbr.htm

These are the PPVs in 2006 that John Cena was not a part of. There is not a single one of them that did better than the previous year, and all but one did a worse buyrate.

So, despite having December to Dismember, despite a lower Wrestlemania buyrate and despite all but one PPV Cena was not on doing worse than 2005, 2006 STILL had a better average buyrate than 2006, even with the addition of 2 extra PPVs.

How can you not say that is growth by the WWE, and how can you not say that Cena played a part in that?

Thank you, this was what I was pointing out. My other point is that they've had guys who've been over for years and haven't been used to Cena's level. RVD and Christian were two of the prime ones.

First, RVD was out for a full year. He was given a couple of different titles, and then was hurt for a full year. He came back and 6 months later was given not one but TWO championships, which he pissed away in a matter of weeks. Forget RVD. He got his chance and blew it. The WWE was right about him.

I'll agree with you on Christian. But, that is only ONE extra person. How would that help the WWE in any significant way. In the last five years, they've made Brock, Eddie, JBL, Batista, Cena, Edge, Lashley, Rey, and probably someone else I've forgotten. Brock left...they couldn't help that. Eddie died...they couldn't help that. JBL retired...they couldn't help that. Batista, Cena, Edge and Lashley are all still around. Rey has been out for a year with an injury...they couldn't help that. Combine that with The Rock leaving early, Jericho taking off for other ventures...and they've done more than enough to have loaded rosters at the moment. But, through circumstances that really aren't their fault, their just struggling with top guys. I mean, if all the guys that are injured would come back, they'd have some pretty tough rosters.

How do you prove that you're worth it anymore than some of the classics he's had in the company...with crappy storyline support I might add (Trish Stratus Love Triangle?)? Classics with The Rock, HBK, Benoit, Angle, etc, etc, etc. I wouldn't dispute having to do the job on the way out...but I'm just saying that should I have been in Jericho's position (another star who got himself over) and had to do the clean job to a guy who can't lace your boots...I wouldn't be raring to return anytime soon.

You prove it by making the company money. Why is this concept so difficult for people to understand? Great matches and fun promos mean nothing if you can't draw money. Obviously, the WWE looked at numbers and felt that Jericho wasn't a good draw as champion, so they gave it to someone else. That is the only explanation I can come up with.

Great. He's the biggest draw in a stagnant company that, with the exception of Wrestlemania hasn't had a drastic buyrate shift into the black since Bill Clinton was still running the country.

You're right. They should put the title on someone who isn't a draw and can't be counted on to deliver money. That makes a LOT more sense.

Meltzer remains neutral according to the ratings. And my initial post way back was a simple question: How many FIVE-STAR matches has either guy had? Not okay matches that pulled threes or so...but FIVE-STAR?

What the hell does that matter? That's like saying Brady Anderson was a GREAT home-run hitter because he led the Major Leagues one season and had over 50 homeruns. One instance of a great match doesn't prove anything other than you had one great match. It's good matches over the length of your career. And, Cena averages as many as Michaels does, according to Meltzer.

He can obviously have good matches when someone is in there that is notorious for having them.

This is absurd. Name me a high quality match that HBK has had with someone that isn't notorious for having good matches.

Well, I'm sure the longer encounters that guys like Flair, Steamboat, Hart, HHH, HBK, and once upon a time Hogan would say otherwise. As for the comment about nepotism? Now you're getting somewhere in regards to Vince's latest pet. Whoever kisses ass or humps Vince's daughter gets the rub these days, typically.

Length has nothing to do with being a main-eventer, nor being a good wrestler. And, explain to me how Cena "kisses ass". And don't give me that one report about how Vince and Cena are constantly backstage talking. Of course they are. He's the champ and the number one guy in the company. Of course he is going to be talking a lot to Vince, because Vince is going to make sure his number one guy is doing ok. Cena is not going to turn to Vince and say "Sorry Vinny, can't talk to you, people might think I'm sucking up."

So, show me how it is that Cena kisses Vince's ass.

Well, I'm sure you can poll the average legit ECW fan on whether they'd like to watch a match involving Cena for the title at their own PPV, or whether they'd rather it be RVD and someone else they'd rather see in the ring across from him.

So, you're telling me that the reason that the response to that match was better than the HBK/Cena match WASN'T because of Cena? That the crowd didn't jeer him every chance they got. That he didn't play up to their expectations, by constantly throwing the hat/shirt into the crowd, the long pauses looking at the crowd, the STFU where he held it on even after the 5 count, the damn near 5 minute break before he delivered the 5 Knuckle Shuffle. You're telling me that the great response that match got had nothing to do with Cena, but all about RVD?

C'mon man, you know better than that. Cena made that match what it was, both in terms of match quality and crowd reaction. You can't objectively deny this.

Well, yes considering they gave Michaels all the best guys to work with, right? We all know that Vince McMahon and The Spirit Squad are the elite when it comes to carrying a match. Michaels still got great responses throughout these crap feuds (even when burying Vince's head in Wight's fat ass), but that doesn't really matter much in the end.

And yet, when he got with Cena, they had one really good match, and one very solid match. Hmmm...

After all, Cena had Edge to fall back on for a portion of the year.

Yes, because Edge is particularly known for his great abilities in classic one-on-one matches that don't involve gimmicks.

At best, I see him as having the ability to be a good tag-team wrestler, but as a main eventer?

You just don't get it. Supposed wrestling ability doesn't matter. It's what makes money that matters. And Cena does it better than anyone else.

 

[lloydy_loinchop]

im 13 and i am not a cena fan, but he is the biggest draw, cos just about every1 who is ignorant of greats like Rock and Austin at my skool love Cena. Apart from DX and the Hardys, Cena is the MOST popular. those very same kids buys PPVs from Australia and go to the house shows here in Melbourne. i dont like cena, but i agree wih that Slyfox guy, he makes money more than any1 else in the company barring DX (who r injured so cannot be the main event) or the Hardys (who are he premier tag team and r mainly loved for their high spots and great teamwork). if u need proof of his influence on wrestling today, hav a look at the WrestleZone logo?
it looks a bit liek Cena holding his spinner title.... Cena is a igger draw than any current superstar, specially RVD

 

[robwylde90]

WWE could make a much bigger draw out of a triple H orton feud for the WWE title , a couple of months ago DX wer kickin cenas ass in merch sales so really when trips comes back the best financial move would be to push him as the biggest face correct ? slyfox MUST agree cause his only argument for the last few pages has been that cena is on top cause he makes money , so really lets say WWE puts the title on trips and then he has the feud with orton which evrybody has talked about , that would not only be the best financial plan but also the best pure entertainment plan because the in ring action and promos wouldnt be as boring as shit like cenas attempts , so really slyfox, if its all about money why dont the WWE do that?
Oh yeah its cause cena kisses vinces ass, it isnt about money , its about who VINCE likes so slyfox, buddy, dont try and feed us all this bullshit that cena supposedly put on classics with the samoan shitkicker and that hes even mildy entertaining , your fighting a losing battle here bud.

 

[Slyfox696]

WWE could make a much bigger draw out of a triple H orton feud for the WWE title , a couple of months ago DX wer kickin cenas ass in merch sales so really when trips comes back the best financial move would be to push him as the biggest face correct ?

How do you figure? Because a nostalgia act, between two main-eventers outsold Cena for 6 months? The fact is this. The DX name sold. Triple H sold. HBK sold (on a lesser scale). You add the three of them together, plus factor in they had only a short run really, and they SHOULD have outsold Cena. The question is, if it had been a full year run for DX, would they still have outsold Cena? And, would it prove anything if DX had? And, I'm just talking on the presumption that DX really did outsell Cena, because I've yet to see any credible evidence that this was so, despite debating heatedly over John Cena since last Summerslam.

Triple H is certainly a big draw in the WWE as well. I don't think anyone can deny it. But, DX Triple H outdraws The Game Triple H, at least when DX experiences a short revival. So, the two really cannot be compared fairly.

slyfox MUST agree cause his only argument for the last few pages has been that cena is on top cause he makes money , so really lets say WWE puts the title on trips and then he has the feud with orton which evrybody has talked about , that would not only be the best financial plan but also the best pure entertainment plan because the in ring action and promos wouldnt be as boring as shit like cenas attempts

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember they tried that once. You know, the whole Orton/Triple H feud. How did that work out for them? So bad it only lasted no more than two months, resulted in a one month title reign for Orton, and would up completely burying Randy Orton. So, explain to me how Randy Orton, who has been jobbing ever since his burial from Triple H, and the non-DX version of The Game would be a better main-event feud than what Cena is in.

so really slyfox, if its all about money why dont the WWE do that?

Because they already did, and it was a complete disaster? *shrugs*

Oh yeah its cause cena kisses vinces ass

You have evidence of this, I presume?

it isnt about money , its about who VINCE likes

I won't argue with you there. Ironically enough though, the guys that make money and the guys that Vince likes usually are the same guys. Strange, isn't it?

 

[PlatynumX420]

Well, I'm sure you can poll the average legit ECW fan on whether they'd like to watch a match involving Cena for the title at their own PPV, or whether they'd rather it be RVD and someone else they'd rather see in the ring across from him.

So, you're telling me that the reason that the response to that match was better than the HBK/Cena match WASN'T because of Cena? That the crowd didn't jeer him every chance they got. That he didn't play up to their expectations, by constantly throwing the hat/shirt into the crowd, the long pauses looking at the crowd, the STFU where he held it on even after the 5 count, the damn near 5 minute break before he delivered the 5 Knuckle Shuffle. You're telling me that the great response that match got had nothing to do with Cena, but all about RVD?

Kasey spoke the truth.legit ecw fans could have gave a shitless if Cena was on the card.A legit ecw crowd has cheers,chants,pops,jeers on that same level as the jeers directed at Cena. It was 'xpac heat' on Cena by the Ecw fans.
THe crowd response was about Rvd ,their own original ecw wrestler,taking on wwe superstar john cena,the posterboy for everything that ecw was against.

 

[Slyfox696]

Kasey spoke the truth.legit ecw fans could have gave a shitless if Cena was on the card.

So why was RVD vs. Cena the hottest match on the card? How come no other match had the same type of atmosphere?

I mean, there were several matches on the card that only featured original ECW wrestlers. How come they weren't as interested in those matches as they were for the main-event?

THe crowd response was about Rvd ,their own original ecw wrestler,taking on wwe superstar john cena,the posterboy for everything that ecw was against.

Exactly? They were hot because they wanted the WWE Superstar, John Cena in particular, to go down. I mean, did they act the same way for Angle or Orton?


Like it or not, that match was all about John Cena.

 

[robwylde90]

The fans at one night stand 06 reacted so well to the main event because of ahatred for john cena because as people can plainly see , he cant wrestle but has had a ridiculous push and bitterness that a guy like RVD, who has been over from day 1 , is far more talented that cena but is always put on the backburner because of guys like john cena. guys like orton got booed like hell too but the fact is , they are not pushing a stagnant act down our throats week after week and can acually wrestle.

 

[Slyfox696]

The fans at one night stand 06 reacted so well to the main event because of ahatred for john cena

So, like I said, the great response to the One Night Stand match was all about Cena. This is what I have said from the beginning.

he cant wrestle but has had a ridiculous push and bitterness that a guy like RVD, who has been over from day 1 , is far more talented that cena but is always put on the backburner because of guys like john cena.

RVD was given two title reigns at the same time. How is that being put on the backburner?

John Cena gets better responses than RVD. And, RVD more talented than Cena? *falls to the ground clutching his sides with laughter*. No, seriously, please explain.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

John Cena gets better responses than RVD. And, RVD more talented than Cena? *falls to the ground clutching his sides with laughter*. No, seriously, please explain.

Intresting point. Most people could give you hundreds of reasons why RVD was superior, 6 years ago. But now it's much harder. Personally I feel that WWE never took advantage of RVD's popularity. Actually it's a fact. He couldn't have been more over in 2001. But in 2006 RVD is a sloppy wrestler who looks completley bored in the ring. Maybe it's because he's tired. Or maybe it's because he feels he's been given the shitty end of the stick throughout his WWE run.

Whan you compare mic skills, the Cena & RVD of today. It's all Cena. While Cena's promos are often similar and not terribly intresting. the same can be said for RVD's. The difference being tha RVD used to cut very entertaining promos, where I feel that Cena has never cut entertaining promos. I feel that RVD has lost it and Cena never had it to loose. Therefor I feel that Cena has the advantage. At least he's consistant.

As for in ring work. Both are pretty average. I dont feel that either could carry a match against a complete greenhorn. If they have an entertaining match against another wrestler who isn't that great, I consider it a fluke. Then again RVD is far more athletic than Cena. RVD can take bumps that would put Cena out of action for months. But I think that's more RVD being a spot monkey than anything. Cena also doesnt need to take really big bumps.

I love the ECW RVD but when you compare the RVD of now with Cena, I think there completely even.

 

[Slyfox696]

Then again RVD is far more athletic than Cena. RVD can take bumps that would put Cena out of action for months.

I just want to address this for a second. I think most people know how I feel, one way or the other on the other points, but I do want to point something out.

John Cena is not just some unathletic hack who only got into wrestling because he was big. He was a center on his college football team at Springfield College in Massachusetts, a D-3 university, but an NCAA college nonetheless. His award for his junior and senior year:

Junior: John Cena (Junior, West Newbury, MA)
* Maroon Club "Athlete-of-the-Week" (Nov. 11)
* Freedom Football Conference First Team All-Star (Nov. 17)
* ECAC New England Division III First Team All-Star (Dec. 16)

source: http://www.spfldcol.edu/homepage/at...ed304208b15cd9c745256c150029bc94?OpenDocument

Senior: John Cena (Senior, West Newbury, MA)
* Freedom Football Conference All-Star First Team (Nov. 17)
* New England Football Writers Division II/III All-Star Team (Nov. 24)
* ECAC New England Division III All-Star First Team (Dec. 1)
* Football Gazette NCAA Division III All-East Region First Team (Dec. 4)
* Hewlett-Packard NCAA Division III All-America First Team (Dec. 9)
* Football Gazette Division III All-America First Team (Dec. 11)

source: http://www.spfldcol.edu/homepage/at...c0b687974c6c68e045256c150026de2c?OpenDocument

He was a VERY good Division 3 football player, and obviously a very good athlete.



For the record, I want to point out that I only know this because someone else mentioned it once when the question was asked if Cena was a good athlete. I don't go around stalking Cena or obsessing over him. For the record.