- Status
Athleticism is more than jumping. But, I honestly don't know if he can jump as far or not. We've never seen him in a situation where he's had to jump any great distance. However, whenever he does that top rope leg drop to the standing opponent, he usually gets some pretty good air under him.
Kasey
Connoiseur of the MILF
All I know is that the entire list of PPVs I provided you Cena was riding in the top spot of and the numbers were either down or stagnant. Twist the other information all you want. The case is, the ones he was in charge of went down in several instances from the time the year before when he wasn't there. You'd think think that because Cena was such a financial boon to the company that these numbers would've improved from the previous year (2005) just because he was involved, right? Alas, that wasn't the case, was it? Even in the end, these buyrates are still BASEMENT compared to what they did once upon a time. Just like the TV ratings. A 3.8 for a "blockbuster" 3-hour Raw? I'm not smellin' what Cena's cookin'.
Whoever said I was just referring to the last couple of years with regards to RVD? He'd been wasted pretty much since day one in the company, even though he's had solid rapport with the audience since DAY ONE. At least he gets the consistency of everyone in the arena cheering for him at one time...and he doesn't need the assistance of the front office feeding him every top heel and bleeding his shtick dry to get that response (hmmm...). Hell, he's been running his repertoire and match basis on stale leftovers from his old days...and he's still over with it! And when he's actually booked into matches with other guys of his ilk who can work (ala Edge on Raw a while back) they outdo any of the stuff Cena does by a mile.
What did they think would happen saddling all the hopes of the company's future on a 24-year old kid? Eddie, though? Are you fucking kidding me, Sly? They ride these guys to death like pieces of meat and more often than not, a great chunk of the lockerroom has been pumped full of steroids for years (which some guys even state McMahon supplied them, no less). Hell, if Lashley, Batista, or Cena piss-tested clean, it'd be a miracle (and this is coming from a personal trainer, no less). Eddie died because they never stop to think that these guys are human beings and might just need a medical checkup every now and then, so you're dead wrong. They could've definitely helped that one. JBL was a lemon, so don't waste your time counting him as any sort of star. A ten-month title reign that no one gives a rat's ass about doesn't give street cred, I'm sorry. Batista was too old and vastly undertalented to lift the company out of the funk it's been sitting in since shortly after the turn of the millenium, so I don't count him, either.
IF their inured would come back. That's the key word...IF. They haven't left themselves enough intelligent outs. Misterio has had junk knees since 1998, so I'm sorry, but he's the last guy I'd be pinning my hopes on. Vince knew Rock would leave, so don't give me that. He helped usher in his film career, for crissakes, so he was an idiot to not sign him into a long-term extension circa 2002. Jericho was kicked down the roster until he was pretty much a moot contender that had no more esteem with the audience in terms of his ability to pull out a decent win, so again, that's a lovely front-office move there as they undid a few years worth of character build. Kennedy is the only one I'd even be remotely looking at as a bankable effort they've accomplished that's going to return from the I.L. Otherwise, Taker is too old to be a cornerstone star at this point and should be a road agent. They also have saddled hopes on Mark Henry as the heel monster savior. Wow. I'm speechless on that one. Sounds like everything is sitting pretty in Stamford...or not.
Yes, because we know the WWE is enjoying business that beats the Attitude Era hands down, right? The fact is they haven't done jack shit in terms of making massive amounts of money as they have in years past. Their stock prices reflect that. So do the ratings. During Jericho's time even Hogan and The NWO couldn't rescue business, so does that mean they aren't draws? Maybe Jericho's inability to draw would also have something to do with a lousy show to be champion on? Hell, I detested wrestling so much during those days that even I stopped watching for over a year circa 2001-2002. Even with all the starpower, the shows blew ass.
From where I sit Cena isn't some drawing dynamo, so don't get ahead of yourself with that one. Slightly, very slightly improving business that was in the toilet doesn't relegate you to hall of fame status. Even Backlash says so at this point, and that was as recent of a number as you can get (as well as the other Raw PPVs that he headlined that were actually down from the year before which I already mentioned previously). Not to mention that Raw hasn't broken a four in how long? What I'm saying is put it on someone who will actually make the entire crowd either love or hate him and give the company a solid direction that everyone gets behind. Just like Rock, Austin, etc. Not someone like Cena who makes it so that the show is split 50/50 and some people hate him so bad that they want to see the heel win. Should I be the one in charge of booking someone who I don't find talented (ala Cena), at least use him in an intelligent fashion that isn't more of the same overly rehearsed superhero garbage since Hogan and Warrior were in the company together. Just with sub-par hip-hop music playing during the entrance.You're right. They should put the title on someone who isn't a draw and can't be counted on to deliver money. That makes a LOT more sense.
Well, seeing as Michaels is probably one of the only guys ever in WWF to have a couple of those matches, and because he's one of the only ones to have that award TWICE, it would just show that lightning didn't strike once, Sly. And Michaels still has numbers that rival Cena's on avergage, so those things combined would just have to say that Michaels is superior to Cena...which is true. So that's why the hell it matters.
Watch Wrestlemania 11 (as I'm sure a fellow nerd like you has). Nash was and is one of the most boring one-note big men in the history of the business and has had very hit-and-miss moments in the game (see the majority of his career as a singles competitor) and Michaels carried him to a tour de force that night (even though Nash botched his own finisher). Even Nash commented in a shoot video that he learned a lot from Michaels while going up and down the road together.
I'm sure Bret Hart would disagree with you, but whatever.
Interpret the report however you want. There is a difference between talking to the boss and being conjoined at the hip with him. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of writing a news snippet like that? Either way, you're no more right than I am, so I guess I'll drop that one.
It could've been any WWE posterboy and they would've given that response because RVD is god to them. Put Batista there? Same response. Edge? Same response. Big Show? Same response. They came there to see RVD win the belt. Not to watch Cena. If you believe that, that's fine. But last time I checked the average old school ECW fan isn't the kind of individual to run right out and buy Cena merchandise or champion watching his matches. Hell, most times I have to struggle to sit through them because he irritates me so heavily. Yes, I can deny it. RVD was the reason they showed up. He's been beyond over everywhere he's been since 1997, so what would make this instance any different? He got insane pops the first year of ONS during his shoot interview and entrance. Same thing here. Cena was put in to pad the card with a WWE face so they could sell more PPVs to the mark masses who wouldn't know good, creative wrestling if it came up and bit 'em in the face.
Obviously, with Michaels "five-star" history, Cena was someone that he could control well in the ring. Aside from the selling fuckups.
He's had solid one-on-one "standard" matches with Orton, Christian (when they split) and Michaels. The gimmick matches are pushed because that's what he had highlights in as a youngster in the company as a tag man.Yes, because Edge is particularly known for his great abilities in classic one-on-one matches that don't involve gimmicks.
No, Sly. You don't get it. Being good at EVERYTHING involved is what makes money. Being good on the mic. Being good in the ring. Having a good gimmick and finisher. Cena isn't a throwback to their most successful times, by any means. They've been treading water ratings-wise and even SNME tanked so bad it's being relegated to a crappy late time slot as a result. What more could you ask for than your old slot back on a national network? If Cena was so amazing in the ring, then their wouldn't be a backlash of this magnitude each and every time he comes out, would there? There wouldn't be altered audio feeds and announcers covering for him on the mic, would there? HELL NO. Did they have to do this stuff with Angle? Eddie? HHH? HBK? Rock? Lesnar? Taker? The mark masses will typically eat up whatever Vince feeds them as long as he administers it long enough and to a great enough degree. My irritation with Cena is that he is definitely not the best option and hasn't been for a few years. If he was getting 100% pops and having no discrepancy with regards to his career, I wouldn't even be talking to you about this. Who knows, maybe you're right and in the next two years the company will rebound. Until that happens, I'll be here, fighting the good fight.
You are not making any sense. First, remember what we are originally debating, which is the improvement in the WWE's business, through PPV buys.
The WWE themselves reported an increase in PPV buys and average PPV buys, and we already established that it wasn't on the Smackdown PPVs of which Cena was not a part of that raised the average PPV buy. That means that PPV buys on the other shows were increases. It's simple. None of the shows that Cena was not on did better than the year previous. That means that the combined effort of all the PPVs that Cena WAS on did better, to raise the average PPV buyrate.
See, this is your problem. You are gauging everything against the Attitude Era, and that is just ridiculous. The Attitude Era was a GREAT boom period, not the standard. What we are in now is just the standard operating range for wrestling. It's climbed out of the valley it was in, and is now getting good ratings considering all the different entertainment options and recording abilities. PPV buyrates climbed in 2006. The company has a good figurehead who makes them a lot of money, and is a great PR guy.
Not everything has to be measured against the Attitude Era. You have to move on. It's over with and never going to come back. Sure, they want to have another period like that, but realistically, it's not something you can plan for. It's just something that comes along.
He is still the biggest draw in the company. This is fact and cannot be disputed. Putting the belt on someone else who does not have the ability to draw as well is silly and just bad business.
Wait...Michaels and Cena both average the same number of quality matches a year, but because Michaels had two five star matches ten years ago, he's a better wrestler now? Are you SURE you're not grasping at straws here?
At best, you can say that Michaels is probably about equal to Cena in terms of "star ratings".
That match is only "good" because the rest of the card was so piss poor, it shines by comparison. Stack it up against a solid card, and the match just doesn't stand up.
Why do you say that?
Because, like most dirtsheet writers, they want to spread gossip. Why do you think it is the only one that has been written in the two and a half years that Cena has been on top? If there was any substance to that at all, then don't you think more reporters would pick up on it?
You lose. Edge was there, and they cheered him after he speared Cena. Nevermind they booed him earlier in the night, they were chanting "Thank You Edge" in the main-event. It wasn't WWE posterboy, it was John Cena. Do you think they would have treated Kurt Angle the same way?
It's just amazing to me how you call Cena bad, and then proceed to say that RVD is "good, creative wrestling". Amazing.
No, they are pushed because Edge in standard one-on-one matches is average.
If this were true, then how come the company declined when supposed great guys like Jericho, HHH, Benoit, Angle and company were on top? Explain that to me. When Jericho, HHH, Benoit, Angle etc. were on top, the company dropped like a bowling ball. Their revenue decreased dramatically, their ratings went from averaging 5s to averaging mid-3s, and PPV buys dropped across the board.
The fact is, you are wrong. Chris Jericho is pretty much good at every facet of professional wrestling. HHH is considered good at pretty much every facet of professional wrestling. Kurt Angle is/was considered good at pretty much every facet of professional wrestling. And people quit watching and quit paying money.
John Cena makes more money than anyone else. This is fact. And luckily for the WWE he IS good at every facet of professional wrestling. He IS a good wrestler. He IS good at promos. He IS good on the mic. He DOES have a great finisher. And, the WWE is working themselves out of the hole created when Jericho, Benoit, HHH, Angle and company were on top. And John Cena has been on top while they've done it.
The sounds of brakes slamming. Woah woah woah. Edge in standard one on one matches is just average. Now talking to an Edge mark like myself, that is just wrong. Edge is amazing in the ring, and his standard matches are always above par, if not superb. When Edge is in gimmick matches, they steal the card that they are on.
Edge is crisp as hell in that ring. He is a Bret Hart calibre wrestler, with the Attitude of a mid 90's Shawn Michaels. He learned by watching Hogan his entire child hood. He stands out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the talent in the WWE. Him and Christian are so damn good they were world champions of their respective Brand/Company.
I can name a ton of Edge one on one matches without stipulations that shine and are above average, and maybe just a handful of John Cena non gimmick matches. Edge's Gimmick Matches blow Cena's Gimmick matches away. There is no comparing the two based on in ring ability. Even watching from Raw on Monday Night. Cena was very sloppy in the ring, whereas Edge was smooth as butter. It was almost unwatchable with the two styles colliding so much. Edge is amazing and is the best wrestler on the Roster right now.
T
Ty420
Guest
Well if edge learned wrestling form hogan then why dosen't his wrestling skills suck. Cause Hogan's wrestling skills suck ass. Much like cena
If it wouldn't be considered spam, I would just post this. Because, wow, I have never seen such a near sacrilegious statement. Edge and Bret Hart should never be in the same sentence together unless we are saying they are both from Canada.
I totally agree. Edge in gimmick matches is pure gold, and Edge is one of the best gimmick match wrestlers ever.
I don't even know what to say about this. First, name me some of these memorable/good Edge standard one-on-one matches. And, Cena is not sloppy, you just made that up. Their match on Monday was not very good. They didn't work well with each other and something was just off. I don't know what it was, but it just didn't flow. But, I'll take John Cena non-gimmick matches over Edge non-gimmick matches any day of the week. The best non-gimmick match I've ever seen Edge in was at Summerslam 2006, where he was facing, you guessed it, Cena.
It's simple guys, Cena sells seats.
Ever since he got the loudest pop i've ever witnessed at a WWE event back in 05 or 06 when he was drafted from SD! to Raw. Whether you hate him or love him, you wanna see him. Whether hes getting his ass beat by Khali, or having epic matches with Edge.
Seriously though, the pop Cena got on that draft day (and he still had is stupid rap gimmick), was unbelievable, my soda spilled just from the vibrations of all the cheering. I had to throw out one of my favorite shirts T_T
Ever since he got the loudest pop i've ever witnessed at a WWE event back in 05 or 06 when he was drafted from SD! to Raw. Whether you hate him or love him, you wanna see him. Whether hes getting his ass beat by Khali, or having epic matches with Edge.
Seriously though, the pop Cena got on that draft day (and he still had is stupid rap gimmick), was unbelievable, my soda spilled just from the vibrations of all the cheering. I had to throw out one of my favorite shirts T_T
R
rkorandyorton
Guest
I dont hate cena. but after watching that tag match last night with him, lashley, orton and booker. Id have to say lashley and cena both have a long way to go when it comes to skill. Maybe it was just me, but it seems like booker and orton carried cena and lashley through that match, it was really boring to watch until the end, when orton hit the rko on lashley, that was awesome.
I absolutely despise Cena, I never ever watch his matches any more. Sorry, just wanted to disperse that old "whether you hate him or love him, you pay to see him" rumour. When I look at Cena all I see is Vinne Mac's failed attempt to splice Stone Cold Steve Austin with Hip Hop culture. So, like a failed experiment, Cena makes me want to vomit and beat him with a stick until dead so humanity may never know what took place.
Capt. Charisma
Getting Noticed By Management
Sorry to disapoint you slyfox but you seem to have your rose tinted googles on again. You keep using the argument that Vince has good judgement and that Cena would not be on top if it was not good business sense, can I ask does that apply to screwing Bret Hart as well. Because I think that was the best thing that Vince ever did for the WWE. Bret hart was nothing special, he wasnt even all that great of a wrestler and your taste in saying John Cena is a decent wrestler shows as much. With that useless piece of crap Hart out the way the WWE could go to new heights with the attitude era, and the same needs to be done to Cena now. He needs to be culled for the good of the company. Im sick of naive people like you saying Bret hart is special, bret Hart is the best wrestler canada has seen in the last 15 years. Well actualy Benoit was, is, and forever will be a better wrestler than Bret "the boring" Hart. He is just like Hogan in that he is a selfish, dirty little blood sucking weasel and I am glad that Vince screwed him. He is nothing just look at his WCW stint what a load of crap. Even owen hart was a better wrestler than Bret and that is a fact. As far as Cena is concerned he just is a one-trick pony and people who continue to cheer for him and sing his parises are so naive its unbelieveable
Jesus Captain could you be any more close minded on the topic? John Cena could put on a 10 Hour Iron Man Thumbtack Death Exploding Submission Match and you'd call him shit. Seriously, I hate Cena as well but to claim that he's never had a good match is bullshit. Just the fact that you would even dare to say Bret Hart sucks, I mean, wow, you obviously don't know much about wrestling do you? If all you can do is come in this tread and just say "Cena sucks you're crazy Cena sucks blah blah Cena sucks because he sucks blah blah" atleast come up with an intelligent argument mate. Just some friendly advice.
As for last nights RAW match with Cena...I fell asleep. That should tell you how exciting he's become these days.
As for last nights RAW match with Cena...I fell asleep. That should tell you how exciting he's become these days.
H
hbk&triple h
Guest
I'm so hoping for Cena to lose this Sunday but we all know he won't because he is freakin God almighty.But wouldn't it just be amazing if Foley won the title again.At least he can put on an amazing match.
Cena is very boring these days.I left during the main event.And I came back in right around the point where Randy hit the RKO and I was like hell yeah.
Captain Charisma I despise Cena just as much as you do maybe even more but he has done some good things.And he has had some good matches.
Cena is very boring these days.I left during the main event.And I came back in right around the point where Randy hit the RKO and I was like hell yeah.
Captain Charisma I despise Cena just as much as you do maybe even more but he has done some good things.And he has had some good matches.
Do you know ANYTHING about wrestling? Have you EVER seen one of Bret Hart's matches? To call him "nothing special" and "boring" just amazes me to no end. In the 1990's NO ONE had as many classic matches as Hart. NO ONE. Only Shawn Michaels comes close. And as for Hart being a "selfish, dirty little blood sucking weasel"... wow, how wrong can you be? Hart was one of the most respected guys in the locker room. He put people over... Bulldog, Yokozuna, Owen, HBK, Austin.. how is this selfish? His stint in WCW sucked because they didn't have a clue how to use him properly, which wasn't Bret's fault. And how is any of the bullshit you have said a fact? It's all opinions.
P
pettit
Guest
now i am gana admitt that cena has had the title for to long, but i dont kno how u cena haters can say he only has 5 moves....
hbk always wins with sweet chin music
hhh pedegree or he always gets his plastic sledghamer out.
batista wins with batista bomb....
carlito back cracker...
nd still yu cena heters always TRY and find a way to make him look like a *** who cant wrestle.
nd yas cant say he doesnt win with well excecuted wrestling moves, cause thats exactly what he did against umaga, nice well ecicuted roll-up....
i mean come on....
hbk always wins with sweet chin music
hhh pedegree or he always gets his plastic sledghamer out.
batista wins with batista bomb....
carlito back cracker...
nd still yu cena heters always TRY and find a way to make him look like a *** who cant wrestle.
nd yas cant say he doesnt win with well excecuted wrestling moves, cause thats exactly what he did against umaga, nice well ecicuted roll-up....
i mean come on....
D
Don Killuminati
Guest
If you think Cena doesn't deserve the hating then your probably about 11 years old. He is just a bad wrestler that's shoved down our throats. It's true there are other bad wrestlers but they haven't had the title for the past 2 and a half years with month or two break. I just want that if WWE is gonna have a guy be that dominant for him to be more entertaining in the ring. But every match of his seems to rely on clothesline, shoulder block, 5 knuckle shuffle, FU, and STFU.
He doesn't always put a horrible match on but it's just really poor quality considereing he's such a big main eventer. And alot of the time his matches are just disgustingly bad. I think they'd do him a favor by giving him more than a 5 minute main event on Raw so he can improve more. But overall HE SUCKS!
He doesn't always put a horrible match on but it's just really poor quality considereing he's such a big main eventer. And alot of the time his matches are just disgustingly bad. I think they'd do him a favor by giving him more than a 5 minute main event on Raw so he can improve more. But overall HE SUCKS!
I'm going to do you one better. If you hate Cena, than you are probably a male in the 16-25 year old category. Because, usually that is the only category that dislikes Cena on the whole.
By the way, I'm a 22 year old college student. Not 11.
And everyone of HBK's matches rely on flying forearm, a nip-up (which is no-selling at its finest) an elbow drop off the top rope, and a Sweet Chin Music attempt, which usually misses the first time. And yet, most people still think HBK is good (myself included).
Cena sucks because they do a horrible job booking him, they showcase only 4 of his "moves" and then say he is a great "street brawler". Please, his character is so stale now not only is he being booed more then ever he and WWE are actually playing off that "Cena is the most controversial champ ever".
Give me a break he creates no controversy, the only thing he does is sell merchandise....and those buying happen to be children ages 5-13 and women who want to bang him!!!
Give me a break he creates no controversy, the only thing he does is sell merchandise....and those buying happen to be children ages 5-13 and women who want to bang him!!!
Kasey
Connoiseur of the MILF
Yes, I am making sense. It didn't anything more than a look over at one of the archive sites with buyrates listed for each PPV to see the stagnation or dips between 2005's business and 2006's. Like I said before: CENA was in the driver's seat during all the ones I had mentioned.
http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfppvbr.htm
The average buyrate still sucks. Stagnation is the word of the day. I even checked the records of every PPV I had listed a couple of posts ago to make sure which cards Cena was on. Do the same before you come slinging this stuff at me, Sly. And why pretell wouldn't the WWE report increases? I looked elsewhere and saw a different set of numbers. You be the judge.
Go ahead and accept all the mediocrity you want. I'll take my "problem" over yours any day of the week. I personally enjoy being a wrestling fan much more when everything works and the shows are so good that they become truly mainstream. There has been TWO boom periods in the last twenty years. McMahon pissed both of them away. FACT. I don't dispute John's PR skills, but even on this last Raw he was getting shit for responses. That's what's so pathetic about the show. They can't even control the crowd, and instead of switching gears to accommodate the trend, they keep bleeding it dry. Buyrates climbed? Please. Spare me. Wrestlemania kicking ass does not a bona fide success make. ONE PPV setting a record doesn't make up for the months of famine thereafter. I'm sorry, but that isn't consistency. That's front-end heavy moneymaking because it's the only show people have faith in. THAT is what the numbers have shown for a long time now. Good yearly business is a marathon, not a sprint. This is why people avoided Backlash like a case of the plague.
Rationalize the failures all you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm not just comparing it to the late '90's boom. I'm also comparing it to the near monopoly Vince had on the industry the decade prior when he was setting attendance records, stealing talent, and blackballing the NWA from running Starrcade opposite Survivor Series. I measure success on Nielsen points. The overall market share they've pissed away in the last six years is astounding. The fact that you can't do that math is depressing. He's has not one...but TWO chances to permanently entrench wrestling in the American marketplace ala Japan and he wasted both of 'em. His best answer is a guy who can't even stay over but has the title surgically attached to his ass. Some game plan.
Whoever is always pushed on top is typically claimed as the "biggest draw in the company." So what? Rationalize your Cena love through the almighty dollar all you wish. I watch the ratings (which took a friggin' carbombing to budge) and the pay attention to the crowds. Denoting quality by how much someone sells is a quick way out and does dick to justify their talent in the ring. Hogan didn't draw squat on his last tours in the company. Does that mean he lost his ability to entertain the crowd or negate his previous drawing capacity? Where's the consistency here?
Not a chance. Even at his old age Michaels elevates pretty much everyone he works with. And to stop you before you start, I'm not an HBK mark in the least and I find him to be a pretty shady individual. However, when a burnout with a shot back and gimpy knees steals a Wrestlemania from you when he's not even in a title match and has a hollow buildup to support the match (21) and then instantly scoops all your pops away in a nanosecond during your first feud with him(this year), obviously someone is more respected by the populace, and it ain't Cena. The five star matches just solidify that Michaels has had more memorable WWE matches in a time that I'm sure the majority of wrestling fans will agree had better wrestling on average, too. You may disagree with me in terms of who's the "bigger draw" but Detroit agreed with me this year, so go figure.
If it'd make you feel better we can make a poll. Oh, wait...
I could say the same thing for a lot of Cena's PPV outings. This is why I steal them. They cost $40 to $50 a pop and aren't worth $10 on the whole. Besides, the cumulative amount of quality work in the company has de-evolved to the point where the WWE fans will lap up just about anything. Hell, most of the matches I see on Raw and Smackdown or the majority of the PPVs wouldn't budge a TNA audience.
Some reports are skimmed over and never really see the light of day about certain aspects of the business. Hell, almost no one remembers much about Sunny and Bret getting busy all the time and HBK blowing the whistle on it...only to have it rear it's head again years later at a convention when she was looped up on pills and hanging all over Bret. Because there was only a smidgeon of news for that one report does that completely invalidate it? Maybe they needed extended coverage for you to buy it?
They only cheered Edge because he helped...TA-DA!! RVD! That's it. And for the most part, they probably would've booed Angle, but they'd damn sure respect his ability in the ring. Besides, Edge and Angle weren't getting the "same old shit" chants, were they? No, they still had their work respected.
Where did I say in all the pages of stuff that RVD has been a creative wrestler in recent years? Matter of fact there are numerous threads where I stated the opposite in recent times, hence my desire for him to go to All Japan or TNA so that he could wrestle with zero offensive restrictions and not have to use the WWE style of cookie cutter work (which the deprived WWE audience still sadly laps up). You see, in the past RVD has done some amazing wrestling (up to 2002 and especially in ECW). He has that much going for him and a fan following that he doesn't even have to try to keep up by elevating his game. Cena doesn't have that kind of track record in his past to fall back on and in all honesty his "fans" are sometimes eclipsed by his haters...which is exactly the opposite of what the WWE wants, seeing as they push him to be a good-guy superhero.
In this day and age, who isn't pushed in that kind of respect? Even Cena. Batista. HHH. Standard WWE title matches usually have long stints outside the ring (with no countout oddly enough) and have someone either juice or a foreign object is brought into play. These are just considered normal matches, though. Even Cena is booked in these kinds of matches for PPV outings against Khali and Umaga. It's part of being a main-eventer.
I hoped you'd walk into this one. Indeed you have. Look at the booking schemes used. Hell, I have a book by Scott Keith on this very thing that monitors all the missteps involved in booking that completely shot the company in the face after the turn of the millenium. There are several factors. One? No competition after the start of 2001. When there was no alternative to Raw on Mondays people just tuned out entirely when Raw blew ass (which it did). I know. I did. Two? Horrible storylines that did nothing to add to the product. Katie Vick? Torrie Wilson's dad? Reduced level of action due to moveset constraints. Improper order of the booking to satisfy quarter-hour sponsors. This was a biggie because it neutered all the momentum of the shows. This even seeps onto some of the PPVs. Even Wrestlemania, for fuck's sake. MITB...in the beginning? Are you joking? Lastly? Mismanagement of talent. They squandered so many guys who can work great and just needed to be booked differently in the order or given a different push. Then they returned to cartoon gimmicks (Hurricane?) instead of sticking with the style of realism they had established before. It's like they busted out their flux capacitor and traveled back to 1985 to get gimmicks.
With the shit booking they used and the lackluster climaxes of PPVs and Raws that basically ran in circles with nothing new and truly creative to deal with (NWO for the fifth time? An injured Angle never really defending his title in 2003) it isn't any divine wonder they fell on their faces. Not to mention HHH conjoined to a belt with no real intrigue to ANY of those storylines and some lousy matches with guys that had no business being booked in programs with The Game (Nash? Steiner?). They had some shining moments (typically just Wrestlemania) but more often than not it was and is a case of gross mismanagement. Hell, they couldn't even sustain good business with the return of Hogan. Undeniably the biggest draw in the history of the business. They even had Goldberg and Nash (who I can't stand) but made money in WCW for ten minutes. The funny thing is that they began to look like WCW of 1998. So much talent, so little intelligence regarding what the hell to do with it.
That's not that hard considering he's the top guy in an unopposed company that has a monopoly over the American wrestling industry with no direct competitor in sight for what is likely to be a long time. Like I said before: consolation prize winner. Oh, and let's forget all the contributions some of the other guys have obviously made because we all know the fans are undeniably in Cena's corner, right? Oh, but they're not, are they? No one denies his promo ability (at least I don't), but once the mic is dropped, so is his bread and butter which is looking pretty and talking. The fans also agree with me on this one...hence the loud chants against him from people who don't just buy a gimmick to love a "champion."
Capt. Charisma
Getting Noticed By Management
If you actualy read all my posts in the thread i out accross several reasons why Cena is crap, however I am not going to repeat them like you or like slyfox repeats his inherinatley flawed arguments to why Cena is good. Slyfox you remind me of David Irving the holocoust denier because you use one fact such as good buyrates for wrestlemania and then try to say that because of this Cena is great- what a load of BS your just forgeting the fact that WWE marketed Wrestlemania harder than any other Wrestlemania in about 15 years, and even brought people like foley, Stone Cold and the Rock back to market the event. Thats why buy-rates were so high. Bret hart is one of the ten most overated wrestlers of all time, he shares this honour with the likes of Goldberg, Hulk hogan, Sting, and Cena. I admit Hart could wrestle which is more than ill give Cena credit for, but he is over-rated to fuck. I mean guys in the mid-card of WWe atm such as Shelton and Benoit are better wrestlers than supposidly one of the all time greats i mean its absoloute bullshit. Yea i was excited watching his matches for about 20secs at the end of them until you waited for him to do the sharpshooter. So what he was respected by a couple of guys, he is also hated by a lot of guys and he has the same cocky selfish attitude as Hogan "give me the title or ill throw my weight around" attitude. Hart and Cena re of the same breed piece of crap that should never have been hired in the first place but I love the fact that Vince screwed that selfish git and thats Vince's best business decision ever. Hart then went to WCW and did fuck all and helped kill it with those other leeches hogan and Nash. Thats all I cba so you spend the next 5 hours trying to manipulate facts and figures to try to convince everyone that Cena is a good wrestler but i have more important things to do.
robwylde90
Celtic Warrior
indeed capt charisma , slyfox why is it your so determined for us to all like cena ? you can post all the facts and figures you want but cena still blows . we see it every week from the second hes booed out of the building on his entrance to when hes pulling out his "great finishing move" , a firemans carry slam, and then we see it the next week and the next week and the next week...and all through this the guy still has his fisher price version of the WWE title superglued to him. I only watch raw these days to see randy orton, kennedy and carlito. And for the extremely rare occasions when cena and lashley lose. Its quite simple, the WWE bookers and john cena have almost single handedly ruined Monday Night Raw.
A
Aaronx
Guest
Alright not to get off track with the " Cena sucks/Cena rules" argument but i just read this on the front page.
Now if i'm not mistaken, that means Cena isn't gonna lose the title to anyone until 2008. Am i the only one who thinks Cena's reign as champ has gone way too long, or do any of you agree? Personally, i think a couple of months for a reign is fine, but a 9 month and 4 day reign is overkill. Not to mention the time with the belt he'll still have after today and and every other PPV until 2008. And unless Creative is blind, deaf, and dumb, they must know how fed-up people are with his time as champion. I might be speaking for myself on this, but i think they should give the belt to Orton or Booker, They're the only two with skill worthy of having the title.
Woo, that was my first spoiler code
Now if i'm not mistaken, that means Cena isn't gonna lose the title to anyone until 2008. Am i the only one who thinks Cena's reign as champ has gone way too long, or do any of you agree? Personally, i think a couple of months for a reign is fine, but a 9 month and 4 day reign is overkill. Not to mention the time with the belt he'll still have after today and and every other PPV until 2008. And unless Creative is blind, deaf, and dumb, they must know how fed-up people are with his time as champion. I might be speaking for myself on this, but i think they should give the belt to Orton or Booker, They're the only two with skill worthy of having the title.
I'm pretty sure some of you already figured as much, but if the program with Snitsky is supposed to happen in '08 with Cena, He's probably gonna win on Sunday.
Woo, that was my first spoiler code
Lets get one thing straight first... John Cena is a sports entertainer... He comes out and usually cuts a half decent promo. Better than almost anyone in the business today (correct me if im wrong on that). Another is this John Cena is a wrestler, although somewhat sloppy, he is a wrestler. The business itself tells John what to do. I mean for christs sake he was put through the OVW and Im pretty damn sure not many of you know, but just watching a workout for these guys makes me exhausted. They learn everything. They dont fill out a checklist of certain spots they want to learn. They learn it all. And if it wasnt good trust me they would not be put through the three different levels in the OVW. John Cena was put through all three. You dont just go through guys. You fucking earn it. By no means at all am i a Cena mark by ANY means. Hell I fall asleep during most of his matches. But the business only allows him to do so much. They give us what he does. Hes told what to do and he does it. Im sure hes tried to present an idea here there and everynow and then theyll allow him to throw in a different move. Hes not booked correctly, I mean why not for once just throw Cena in a midcard against Carlito or some other heel. Dont announce it just let the music hit, let the fans scratch their head for a second cause its only 9:45 not 10:50. Let him go in maybe put over a guy, maybe actually wrestle for 10 to 12 minutes. He is a main eventer no doubt about it, but they need to put more emphasis on other wrestlers and especially the Intercontinental Championship which ACTUALLY used to mean something... but thats another thread
Kasey I don't know what your point was with that link you posted to the buyrates... From what I can tell looking over those buyrates, ever since Cena originally won the championship (Wrestlemania in 2005), buyrates have generally gone up with a few exceptions, from the dismal numbers 2002 through 2004.
Add on top of that the fact that the product has even in my opinion declined a little bit and the amount of Pay per views has gone up, doesn't that work FOR the people arguing on Cena's behalf?
If I was looking at those numbers and I was working at WWE, knowing Cena is atop the company, I wouldn't want to take the title off of him. The numbers for PPVs have gone UP ever since he won the title!
I think that argument stands alone. Cena sells, at least more than anyone did 2002 through 2004 inclusively, and when I look up and down the roster, I don't see very many people who could take Cena's spot as champ and make it work like he has!
Add on top of that the fact that the product has even in my opinion declined a little bit and the amount of Pay per views has gone up, doesn't that work FOR the people arguing on Cena's behalf?
If I was looking at those numbers and I was working at WWE, knowing Cena is atop the company, I wouldn't want to take the title off of him. The numbers for PPVs have gone UP ever since he won the title!
I think that argument stands alone. Cena sells, at least more than anyone did 2002 through 2004 inclusively, and when I look up and down the roster, I don't see very many people who could take Cena's spot as champ and make it work like he has!
I'm going to take the numbers the WWE gives me. Considering it is their business, and they have to make public record their sources of income, I'm going to have to say they are going to be the most accurate.
Which is unfortunate because your problem hinders your ability to enjoy what you see on TV.
They may be claimed to, but it doesn't make it true. See 1996 HBK run as an example.
This is good logic. Except for the fact that if we held this poll in 1990, Ultimate Warrior would be a better wrestler than Bret Hart, and in 1995, Savio Vega would be a better wrestler than Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Actually, now that I think about it, this would prove nothing at all.
Exactly my point. Those fans were more interested ining boo Cena, not cheer RVD, which is what made the match response so great.
So, wait a minute. When Jericho, Angle, Benoit and company were on top, the company was in a DOWNWARD spiral because of gimmicks and such, but when Cena is on top, the WWE is only making slight gains UPWARD, but that has nothing to do with gimmicks and such.
I don't get it. The WWE now is just as gimmick laden, if not more so, than when Jericho, Benoit and company were on top. The difference is, the company is an upswing now, and not a downswing. They get better Raw ratings, better PPV buys, and sell more merchandise. Clearly this means one of two things. One, your theory that "great all rounders" sell great is false. Or two, my theory that John Cena is a "great all rounder" is proven true. I'm going to go with option two, personally, but you can choose what you want.
And yet, there are several other people who have/had the opportunity to be the "top guy in an unopposed company that has a monopoly over the American wrestling industry with no direct competitor in sight for what is likely to be a long time", and none of them measure up to Cena. This is an undeniable truth.
Increased ratings, increased PPV buys, increased revenue, top draw, biggest merchandising mover, good at promos, good in the ring, several classic matches....I think you need to learn to count. Because that is definitely more than "one fact".
I could not care less if you like him. But, what I care about is the fact that you disrespect him. If you want to say that you personally don't like him, because he's on top too long and it makes him stale, or something like that, then fair enough. Your personal preference. But when people make ignorant comments like "he sucks because he can't wrestler" or "he isn't a draw" then that is when I respond.
Dislike him all you want. Just don't make up false reasons for doing so.
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